 I'd like to welcome everybody to today's presentation. We're going to be talking with Sharon Selby, who wrote Surfing the Worry Imp's Wave. It is an amazing children's book that helps children understand a little bit about what causes anxiety and what causes sort of false anxiety so they can start figuring out how to deal with their feelings as they come up. The book has a lot of activities in it that allow children to work through with their parents, with their caregivers, with their therapist, whomever, each one of these tasks. So it's not just a read it and go, it allows the children and the families to really partake in a developmental process. So welcome, Sharon. Thank you so much. Please tell us a little bit about yourself. So I'm in private practice in Vancouver, British Columbia. I have been counseling for 20 years now and most of my practice specializes in anxiety with children and teens. Okay, and your website, which we'll put up a little bit later, is just an absolute wealth of information. You have a lot of blog articles that people can go look at and learn about all kinds of things, some of which we're going to talk about today. So what prompted you to write this book? Well, since I've been in the counseling field for 20 years, I've seen a huge increase in child anxiety and it's quite concerning how much anxiety is out there. And I really think if we can teach children about it when they're young, we can hopefully turn things around so that it's more manageable and doesn't really turn into an anxiety disorder when they're older or as teens. So I noticed there wasn't a lot of resources available for parents and professionals in the age five to 10 category. And that's an age I work with a lot. I also run groups for children with anxiety as well as working with them individually. And so I wanted to put all of my curriculum that I use into a fun story that would be engaging but also give them concrete strategies and give parents especially a resource. And one of the wonderful things I noticed when I was previewing this book was a lot of the strategies that you are teaching through this book are the same strategies that I teach adults when they come in, we just go about it a bit different. So when parents are working with their children to help the children learn how to deal with anxiety, the parents are also potentially developing skills that they may not have. Because a lot of times what I see is when the youth have high anxiety, parents also tend to have difficulty coping with anxiety. So through modeling and through teaching, the parents are actually gonna get a lot out of it in addition to the youth. Exactly, these are strategies that are based on CBT which is cognitive behavioral therapy as well as mindfulness. And that's known as the gold standard for treating anxiety. So it's just a way to teach it to younger children and really, as you say, the book is for all ages. It's just written in a children's format. Right, and it's kind of funny. One of the things that you talk about are the false alarms, the setting off the fire alarms. And in my classes, a lot of times I talk about the fire alarm because our fire alarms, I'll get distracted or something will drip and I'll get smoke in the kitchen. And there's really no fire, but there's smoke. Or when we have our windows open and the wind blows really strong, it'll set off our fire alarms. Again, no problem, but we need to check it. So kind of the same thing as encouraging people to check in and realize that not every alarm means there's actually a problem. It's just sort of a, hey, might wanna check this sort of thing. Exactly, and I think that's really, the difference between anxiety and fear. Anxiety is more about the perceived threats that could happen and then your body thinks it's really happening. And so it goes into that fight, flight, or freeze mode. But when it's true fear, it's happening right now in front of you, it's an emergency. And yes, you do need to go into fight, flight, or freeze. But if you can teach children and teens that really, this is a false alarm and that you're having a perceived moment of feeling there's a threat coming and it's not actually happening right now. Right, awesome. I talk a lot in my classes about basic fears of rejection, isolation, failure, loss of control, and the unknown triggering this fight or flight response or fight, flight or freeze. What types of things did children worry about? I mean, more specifically just school, peer pressure, what is it that you see a lot in the youth? I think for the younger children, separation anxiety is huge. So a lot of children is when they're starting school, whether it be preschool or elementary school, that's a really kind of scary experience for them. And they feel like there could be some kind of threat out there and they're only safe if they're with their parents. Same when it comes to joining a new activity or sports team and for some children sleeping independently. Nighttime can be scary with the dark and so they want a parent to sleep with them and their imagination starts to think, all the worst case scenarios could happen at nighttime, including imagination like monsters and things like that. Then as they get older, separation anxiety can still be a big one. I've known 12-year-olds and 13-year-olds that still don't want to sleep alone or go to outdoor school, things like that. But then we also start getting into more of the social anxiety as they become teens because there's so much pressure around fitting in, being popular and with all the social media, you don't get a break from it. Children tend to come home and then go on to their devices and then they're still surrounded by it and they can see who's hanging out with who and where they might have been excluded or they see these beautiful photographs that have been photoshopped and edited but it makes it look like everybody's got these amazing lives and makes them feel kind of hopeless about themselves. Sure, okay. Why do children worry about things that adults just really don't worry about? I mean, sometimes my kids will be worried about something and I'm like, you know, in the big scheme of things. So why is it that children worry about things that adults may not? Well, I think part of it is, again, that dependence on their parents. So the separation anxiety is big for that. Also, of course, the wise owl brain, the prefrontal cortex isn't fully developed yet. Not until about age 25 and then we know when you're a plasticity, it can keep on growing but at a much slower rate. So their rational brain isn't really able to function as strong as their instincts. And so as soon as they get stressed or worried, their instincts, you know, think this is real. So I'm going to, you know, prepare you for fight, flight or freeze. And, you know, that confirms for them that their worries are real because their body's telling them that, you know, your hands are sweating or your heart is beating. So it must be real. And we have to help them distinguish between what's real and what isn't. And then again, for younger children, distinguishing between fantasy and reality is hard. And that doesn't really happen until about age seven. Right. Mistakes and bad things happen. So how does the concept, and I know you talked about this on your blog, so I wanted to bring this out. I love this series. How does the concept of fault versus responsibility impact a child's anxiety? For example, if parents divorce, you know, do they feel it fault? How much of it's their responsibility? What are we talking about there? All right. So of course, when parents divorce, that creates a lot of uncertainty about the future. And that's what the worries feed on because the worries are always getting you to be worried about what might happen, what could happen in the future. And so it's the time when definitely the anxiety is going to increase. And so then for the child, they have a lot of questions they don't understand probably why their parents are divorced. The parts they think maybe they can control is their own behavior. So maybe they start to take, you know, some of the blame and think, okay, if I behave better, this will help my parents get back together. But ultimately we have to help them realize, you know, they are not responsible for their parents' feelings. They're responsible for their own and that they need to, you know, find ways to separate what's going on with their parents from themselves and realize again that with the anxiety, it's just all the what if questions. And we don't have a crystal ball. So I neither do the worries. So we don't actually know what is going to happen in the future. We need to just try and stay in the present with the moment that we have right now. Okay. What are some signs, you know, I know that the signs of depression and anxiety are different in children, adolescents and adults. So what are some signs parents should look for to identify that, hey, my child may be struggling with anxiety issues? Mm-hmm. So when they're really young, you may notice that your child is quite sensitive. So we can recognize this even in newborns and there's been studies done on this. And this might be the child who startles more easily or certain textures might make them cry and certain tastes are difficult. And when you have a more sensitive child, there is more likelihood that that child will also be more anxious. But we don't know that for sure, but it's something to look out for when you have a really young child. Then as they get a little bit older, the signs we start to see are the clinging, they're not wanting to leave you, sometimes the stomach aches. And so that can be, you know, definitely big red flags that there's some anxiety happening here. If your child's asking a lot of what if questions and they're asking for a lot of reassurance and you seem to answer them once, but then after that, they keep asking the same question over and over again. And then we're kind of caught in that worry cycle as well. And so we wanna be careful not to get caught up in that because then we're actually reinforcing the anxiety. So then as they become a bit older, you might notice they're avoiding things more and they're also not wanting to go on sleepovers, things that kind of are usual for their age. And then you're noticing that they're not wanting to participate in that. So definitely those can be some of the signs. Okay, so if you have a child, for example, who's middle school, high school age, and they just sort of become apathetic about school, about friends, about anything, they're just, you know, what in an adult we would kind of think of as depression, you know, persistent depression maybe. Would that be anxiety in children or would that be leaning more towards depression? Yeah, I mean, it's hard to know exactly, right? Unless you have the person in front of you and you can investigate a little further, but anxiety and depression are often linked. And so usually it starts off as anxiety and then when the anxiety gets to be at a point where it's unmanageable, you start to feel that hopeless and helpless feeling that comes with depression. So if somebody, as you know, they're starting to not go to school and you're getting a lot of school refusal, they're not wanting to see their friends, they're just wanting to sleep all day, you know, definitely there could be some undercurrents of anxiety, but then it sounds like at that point it's also heading more towards depression, definitely a time to seek some counseling help. Sure, and probably to deal with that depression, they're gonna have to deal with that undercurrent of anxiety because they need to develop the sense of self-empowerment. Exactly, and a lot of what we do in CBT is talk about cognitive thoughts. So the C for cognitive behavioral therapy is cognitions which are your thoughts. And so there's a lot of irrational thinking that happens, especially in the teen years as well, because there's so much fear of judgment and what others think. And so you can really build up irrational thoughts. And then if you're believing all those thoughts, it gives you these very negative feelings. And then of course that leads to your actions, which means you don't want to go anywhere and you want to hide and sleep all day. Sure, and one of the things we talk about in my groups with adults, the fact that there's thoughts when you're thinking based on feelings, and instead of thinking based on facts. And so if they feel like it's scary, then they automatically start thinking, this must be something that's really scary and then they can talk themselves into it. So sometimes even feelings can trigger thoughts that support the feelings and it's this downward spiral, such as going to a sleepover as the example you gave. If they think it's kind of scary, then they're like, well, what if I go and I wet the bed or I burp or something that children and young teens tend to find just mortifying. Then they start thinking about all the what-ifs, as you said, that could happen and they can really get themselves wound up. Definitely, and I think sometimes it's a negative association. Maybe they had a sleepover at a friend's house and maybe they got sick and they threw up. And so now they're too scared to ever go on a sleepover again, because now they're convinced that if they do, this will happen. When really we know the probability of that happening again is really slim, but they create this belief that A must equal B and that's where the irrational thinking happens and we have to help them break that down and create a new thought. Right, right. Okay, now in the news around here a lot, we've been hearing about school shootings especially, but we've also had earthquakes and hurricanes. I mean, it's been kind of a busy 12 months for disaster type things. So after a traumatic event such as one of those things, what types of stress and anxiety reactions might we see in youth, both the youth that are directly exposed to it, as well as children that live hundreds of miles away but they're seeing it on the news over and over again. Yes, exactly. So of course there's gonna be a lot of separation anxiety because they're gonna wanna stay close to their parents, they're gonna feel that that's their safe place and they're going to probably be quite hypervigilant. So it's as if they have a little antenna and they're on the lookout everywhere they go for possible danger. They're constantly checking their devices for news updates. So we have to help them to manage all of that. It's not healthy to be looking at the news over and over again, repeating those images, hearing those stories over and over again. We have to help them to realize that we have some kind of plan in place. So if it's an earthquake, we've got our meeting place, we've got our emergency kits ready, the schools usually have some kind of plan in place where they do a lockdown if there's an intruder in the building. So we can give our child that information that there is a plan, a safety plan in place but then beyond that, it's out of our control and no matter how much we worry, it's not gonna change the outcome. By worrying, we can't make things happen and we can't stop things from happening. And that's the illusion of worry is it makes us think we're gonna be safer because we're worrying about it but actually it doesn't make us safer. It's exactly the same. And so then that's where we have to recognize the difference between living in trust versus fear and living day by day and moment by moment and recognizing that if an emergency happens then we will deal with it the best we can with the plans we have in place but otherwise we still need to be able to enjoy our lives moment to moment because the rest of it is unfortunately out of our control. And I see so much of this even and it's something that parents can really take in. I remember way back when, when we had 9-11 and it was just on the TV. My son was 18 months old at that point but I remember watching it and watching it and keeping it on the television and not really thinking much about it but for adults it's the same thing. If we keep seeing it over and over again it keeps it ever present. We are able to differentiate. We know it's not happening anymore but it keeps it present for children. It seems like it's happening over and over again I would think because they may have difficult especially younger children may have difficulty realizing that okay, this was from three months ago and things have gotten better but we're still seeing pictures of whatever the disaster was. So go ahead. And so also they start to think it's, it's gonna happen like the next day and they're not able to look at the statistics and realize that as tragic as these incidents are they're still quite rare. And the fact of it happening in your exact school or in St. Vancouver, we also live in a zone that's known to maybe have a big earthquake one day but when we look at the statistics has there ever been the big one? No, not yet. So we've got to look at the evidence and look at the facts and that's one of the tools that I teach in my book. Okay, awesome. Aside from reading this book with children and going through the discussion and activity guide because children really need to involve all their senses and you've done a great job of laying it out so they can actually hear about it, see it and practice with it. What can parents do to help their children prevent anxiety? Well, I think modeling of course is a huge one and there is sometimes a genetic link with anxiety running in families. So it's really important to be aware of your own anxiety and we all have anxiety to some degree. It's just to what degree? And so just really trying to keep our own anxiety in check so that our children aren't modeling that and seeing it and then being able to have these kind of discussions with them where you have a close relationship and you can talk about thoughts and feelings. I really believe in bedtime being that golden hour where you're not trying to rush it and make it happen in five or 10 minutes. You take time when they're younger to read a story and have rituals but also have some quality time where you can have little chats, lie down on the pillow together and often in the dark or when the lights are dimmed and the busyness of the day is finished. That's when stuff comes up and you can have these really insightful conversations and then even with teenagers you can. If this is something that they've always been used to my daughter's turning 15 next week and I'm fortunate I still get to lie down next to her in bed at night and have these kinds of chats because she's never known anything different. We've just always done that. So I really encourage using bedtime to be that special time to have these kinds of chats. And it also helps them kind of quiet their mind a little bit so they're not laying down and like you said, when it's quiet they're alone with their thoughts and if they don't have a way to get them out those thoughts just kind of bounce around in their head. So using that time really helps them de-escalate and start getting ready for a good quality sleep. Yeah, we all need to process and so it just helps to process with a caring parent who has wisdom and a different perspective and can listen and maybe give some support if needed. Which that's kind of the cool thing. We may not be the smartest people in the world but we have more experience than our children. So we have been through similar things probably and we can share not to invalidate them obviously but we can give a slightly different perspective sometimes on things that may be anxiety provoking and we can help them look at, let's stop and look back at times when you've gone through something like this before and it's been fine and you've done great. So maybe the child's getting ready to give a speech or something. So those are definitely things that and whether we're a parent or just an objective person who's not in that emotional mind we can maybe point out some of their strengths and resiliency. And I think it's important that children don't just identify themselves as anxious. It's really important to externalize it. So that's why I created this little worry imp character for my book because imps are imaginary but they also like to play tricks. And so when we can call it the worry imp that's playing tricks, then it's easier to see it as something outside of you that you need to speak back to or not listen to or do the opposite of. And as children get older and you're not gonna call it the worry imp anymore but just calling it the worries or just calling it anxiety is a way of externalizing it. So they can realize, oh yeah, that's my anxiety voice talking again. Okay, I don't need to listen to that. What other thoughts can I have that might be more grounded in reality? Exactly, exactly. I noticed on your website that your blog quite extensively talks about issues related to anxiety, attachment, discipline, self-regulation and resilience which are all wonderful topics. I mean, you could do so much with all of them. How do you see all these things as being related? Right, so if you have a strong attachment that creates a secure base in the family and that's the founder of attachment theory, John Bowlby that called it that, the secure base. And that's really crucial in every family. But then it's also really important we don't become overprotective because if we're too protective or we jump in and rescue our children too much or solve problems for them, then they don't develop the resilience that they need. And then also they need to develop self-regulation so that they can learn how to handle all these big feelings, anxiety being one of the big ones. And then the discipline part is important because the roots of the word discipline actually mean to teach. And so that's an important part of parenting because that's where children learn boundaries. And if they're not having limits set and they have no boundaries, then they are going to become anxious later because they're gonna get themselves into situations where they don't know how to handle it and they've gone kind of out of bounds because they don't know what those limits are. And then on the other hand, if it's a very strict authoritarian family where the parents are kind of controlling the children then the children don't know how to think for themselves. And so then that's gonna create anxieties they get older and need to make decisions for themselves. So we wanna try and be in the middle and have that backbone bamboo style of parenting where you're firm but flexible and still have limits but also have a strong attachment. Sure, and so as you were talking, I'm thinking of growing up in a family, if you grew up in a family where there weren't any limits set, it might feel like mom and dad didn't care. So that could trigger some anxiety and disrupt the attachment process. And likewise, if the family is over authoritarian, it might feel to the child like their parents don't trust them and their parents don't think they have the skills so they need to be afraid because they're vulnerable. And being undermined, exactly. So it sends a lot of confusing messages when you're at either end of the spectrum. So we've talked a lot about anxiety and children and everything and I can't say enough about this book. I don't usually gush about books but it's so pretty and it works so well. So where can people get surfing the worry imps wave? So right now it's available on my website which is my name, SharonSalby.com and soon it will also be available on Amazon. It has just come out. So that's great. Yes, thank you. It's very exciting and it's after a great start. And it also comes with a digital discussion and activity guide. So that's like a PDF so that parents have got extra support to help them with the concepts in the book and also for professionals and it has extra copies of the different activity worksheets. So if you were a professional working with a group then you could make up 10 copies of the different activity sheets. There's guided meditations and there's even a worry imp song in here and there's a recording of my daughter singing the worry imp song. So yeah, it's my aim is to make it a really comprehensive resource for parents and professionals for children around the ages of five to 10. Okay, awesome. And again, if people go to your website, SharonSalby.com it is a blog and there are a ton of resources that people can look at to learn more about your approach and I think all of it builds on what is in the book. So once you go through the book, there are other things and there's a lot of tools for parents specifically. The book is geared towards children and a lot of tools for parents on your website that they can use in concert with what they're learning in the book in order to help their children prevent anxiety, if possible. I always think prevention is a whole lot better than intervention later. So parents can learn a lot even by getting this book for their children who aren't anxious yet, but to provide a good foundation and help them figure out what's going on. I know as a parent myself, when my kids were younger, I loved them to death, but communicating with a child is so much, young child is so much different than communicating with a teenager or something. And sometimes it's hard for us to communicate in a way that we can engage children. They can understand, but they're like, so this book really allows parents to communicate on that level that'll engage the children and they'll kind of get excited because now they've got a mascot for anxiety that they can deal with. Well, I really appreciate you being here today and I think there was something else you wanted, oh, you wanted to talk about. I have another free gift for your audience. So if people would like to receive my free ebook, the eight common mistakes to avoid when your child is anxious, they can do so at SharonSalby.com forward slash free dash ebook. So SharonSalby.com forward slash free dash ebook. And it is also available on my homepage of my website, SharonSalby.com as well, but that will hopefully help you to be proactive when you see little bits of anxiety popping up and you want to know how to help. Awesome. So those links will also be in the notes for the video and they will be in the podcast notes. So if any of you are listening and you're driving right now, you can go back later and find those links if you don't remember them so you can get the free ebook and you can also buy Surfing the Worry in Suave.