 We really want to try to take the people at their hands and guide them step by step through the part that they don't know yet, which is really about how to actually come up with concepts and solutions with and for AI. Because everyone thinks it's a black box. It's like your laptop or your computer just much more powerful. And you can put in some like Amazon, Alexa, whatever. Hey, can you please come up with a dream solution and then it will work and it does it all automatically. But this is not what it is about really. It's still absolutely depending on us. So we have to drive it. It's not driving itself yet. It might in a distance that I don't know maybe 10, 20, 30 years or never will happen that it does it all by itself kind of a haul, 9,000 things. But right now it's us and we have to use this technology to really make something with it. Thank you. Carol J. Gold is my guest on this episode of inside ideas brought to you by 1.5 media and innovators magazine in the age of artificial intelligence, digitization and machine learning being human as often neglected. For Carol, therefore it is crucial that innovations are not only human-centered, but rather make mankind in unity with the entire ecosystem. The decisive factor in development. That is something only design can do that is not to be argued with the entrepreneur and can convince business romantic. Carol is truly a business romantic. That's how we know each other through our mutual friend, Tim Lieberecht and the Romantic Society and Business Romantic books that he wrote. Unlike many other topics, Carol is the founder and managing director of three companies. Indeed, Innovation, Toy, which stands for Tools of Innovators and Simplexion. Did I say that right, Carol? Yes, you did. Simplexion, perfect. Carol loves to discuss, to provoke and to put the finger into wounds which no one previously suspected that they exist. As a speaker at international events as initiator of successful event formats, one of which I spoke at, The Great Wave, the Humbered Edition and the Hoffman right across from the Elfville Harmony, beautiful, wonderful event and an advisor of different cluster organizations as a lecturer at the Steinbeis University in Berlin as well as columnist and author, but above all in his attitude as an entrepreneur. Carol provokes and inspires executives as well as young talents to new thoughts. It is important to Carol that design is perceived as creation of value and not as creation of objects. And even more so, he wants to convey to his listeners and readers the idea that design plays an important role wherever you want to change something. Carol, welcome to the podcast. Well, Mark, thank you so much for having me here today. I'm super curious and I'm totally looking forward to the next hour or so. I have to thank you for my personal edition, the AI Toolbook, I've got it right here. You wrote me a beautiful, lovely message here in the opening and I absolutely loved it. I devoured it and I shared it with my partner as well and loved it as well and it was very, very nice. And I bookmarked a few spots that we're gonna look at and talk about today for sure. I have to mention at this point that it wasn't just you who came out with the book, it was a collaboration, a passion between three wonderful creatives, Alessandro Brando Lisio, I think I said the same right. He is really the guru and the wizard around creating tools and methodology, kind of like the AI Toolbook for dummy. So not only methodologies, just, but the tools and understanding. And I can see some of his pivotal things in the book and I'll maybe tease a couple of examples. And then Michele Lichl, he was also very pivotal. He has 10 years at the Harvard Business Review, so to say, out of Hamburg. So he's German and has that Harvard Business experience but in Hamburg for the German region and writing for them and doing a lot of different things there and he also contributed to the book and you guys make a wonderful team and created something that is amazing. So really the A to Z from Novice or just the beginner clear up to someone who really wants to apply it into their business, their organization, their daily life, understand what all the buzz and the terminology as well as a lot of the fear. So the last thing I wanna say about the AI Toolbook is we're only gonna tease it a little bit because I want people to go out to buy it, to read it, to get it from you and use it as a toolbook for better understanding and to see where it might fit into their lives and to their organization. And so I wouldn't even say we're gonna give the cliff notes but we're gonna tease it enough to give people really, I gotta get that book, especially if they're interested in that. And the biggest caveat to that whole thing or the thing that I want people to be aware of is that it really portrays your human technology, human innovation, the humane aspect of where we need to go and how we can use it for good and how we don't really need to be afraid of that. You have a really clear path in the book. So you start out with a wonderful analogy and I won't give it away that something that for some people can be pretty fearful but it has to do with jumping in both feet first and then throughout the entire read, you start with the basics, a briefing on how you jump in with both legs then actual jumping into it, then the actual jump process. So as you're getting into it, then the actual jump process and then the secure safe return or landing after this jump, how you can make it back safely. And there's just tons of examples throughout and I really, and I love it. So I know you and we've known each other for a while. You're just the salt of the earth, great person. You've been doing innovation and this beautiful business for a while. You've been thinking in this direction for a while. And so that leads me really to the very first question I have for you. How have you weathered this crazy time? Black lives matters, pandemics, vaccines, inauguration, Brexit, all these crazy things going on in the world, they're still going on mutations and on and on and on. How have you had any resilience? Has your business continued to grow as a, what have you seen? What are the learning lessons? And then as well as I already mentioned, you and I had a pandemic live event together, not very many people following the restrictions and distancing and mask wearing, but it was still very wonderful. It was called the Great Wave. I just want to get it caught up. And I also want to know the reason I ask you this and I'm always very transparent, are there some better models out there? Is there ways to be more resilient during times of crisis? Are there better tools and things? That's why I ask you that as well, as well as any learning lessons you've had during this time. Well, you know, I wish I had this kind of knowledge about what really makes things truly work or not work. And sometimes, you know, you get the notion that, oh yeah, I'm just on the brink of exploring that or understanding the mystical things of how the world turns actually and how humans think and act. But then I realize again, no, I don't, of course. But this ever wondering for this moment of, hey, do I really understand why it actually happened, what happened to me? That helps me to reflect myself. So, you know, that has been a great question or an array of questions, Mark, you just proposed. And let me go walk you through a little bit. So personally, I really think that myself, I've been just lucky all my life. Of course, you know, you could say I worked hard for it, but well, you know, I so far, despite all the things that happened in life, I was more standing definitely on the positive side. You know, you could go back into my childhood and up to today, you know, where, yes, my businesses are working out fine, despite the pandemic. But the reason for it probably is not in the reaction only to it, but from the beginning on, from the get go, where did it start? You know, how do you actually deal with partners, with employees, with friends? You know, what is your attitude? What is your inner clock ticking by? And this is probably what could be the secret sauce to working it out. You know, when you realize, of course, that if you subsidize things that are not sustainable, well, then you betray yourself. And if you're aware of this, never doing something kind of that, you know that it's actually somehow not really sustainable, not really good, then you are getting really good at surfing on the wave of not the least resistance, but the one that keeps you always afloat despite all of these crazy changes that happen. But at the same time, I must admit, because I'm also quite emotional person, so my brother and my mother is from Brazil and she definitely gave me some passion into the DNA. And I could, you know, sometimes I could scream out loud when I see all this crazy thing happening, you know, talking to Brexit and all this betrayal that we sometimes see not mentioning that, you know, any weird stuff, but it's just crazy sometimes where you go like, why? You know, really, why are people doing that? And at the very bottom line, you know, and today we have so many, actually more waves, not only ripples, but real big waves crushing in from all different directions with problems. I think if we really look at our own human and even humane side, I think we can see that if we try to treat each other, not only with, and this is, I know it's so easy to say, it was the biggest possible respect, but also literally fighting and working on always becoming a little bit better, always trying to do, you know, what we are capable of and even taking the weakest one and trying to become really strong and not just saying, well, it's okay if they're weak, but also saying like, no, maybe it's something that makes them weak, they didn't, they did not get born weak or anything like that to really believe in that and trying hard never to give up. I think that's a great thing. And last but not least, maybe also, you know, I always was wondering as I was young and lost for more, but it was never for too much in terms of, ooh, you know, I need to have, I don't know, a yacht or anything like that, some weirdo stuff, but it was always, hey, I wanna have a good life. And I think this is, it comes in natural that you wanna have a good life. The problem is that sometimes we grow almost like a cancerous disease, you know, bigger than we can sustain the system. And again, this is, this keeps me in balance being trying to be at least very, very humble all the time and super thankful. And this is why I'm saying I think I'm just the luckiest guy on the planet because whatever I do, it kind of works out, you know? And this is of course all to the fact that I rather wanna see the glass full full or half full than it is a little bit empty. Yeah, I agree that that's beautiful. I'm going to poke and prod you a little bit more because I wanna go even deeper. You see some good business models, some good life models that have helped you. Is it sustainable innovations? Is it the digital transition? Are there some tools or operating systems that you could say are core, besides just being a good Samaritan, besides having strong ethics and just seeing the world in a different way, kind of this romantic way that we're all, I guess in some respects that could be interpreted in many different ways, this seeing the world in a romantic where it also connects you to others as your distant cousins, as your brothers or sisters or as someone that you love and have a relationship with, so to say, over time. And then you just act differently. Are there any kind of technologies or innovations in that way or other operating systems that you say are the red thread throughout all of those things? And you deal a lot obviously in your bio with innovation. So you probably already had done the digital transformation and probably already had social distancing, machine learning, automation and some of those tools in place for your employees and for yourself and even in your home environment, probably that it wasn't that big of a shock which gave you and your organization some resilience to weather through this because you'd made those transitions years ago. You saw that was the future that we were going in. Well, yes and no, right? So of course, if I look back again, 25 years ago, I was working for a U.S. company transforming military technology for consumer technology. So at that point, of course, you were always very human centric because you were looking what is easiest to adapt, what innovation will drive sales and things like that which gives you a lot of tools that might work but they only work in a certain system, right? And it's in the classical capitalistic system that they really work well. So I know to play that game for sure but the question is really at the certain point in time of your life, are there other models that help you to advance? Yes, if you're always on the more advanced side, if you're always looking for change, if that's part of your internal engine or combustion system, then what happens is that you are almost like biased for the other stuff but only can work on what is innovative, what is super new, that is unsecure. And this has a lot to do with creativity, right? I think personal because for me, creativity is basically not having fear for change because you're really, you're open and adaptive for new stuff that nobody maybe has ever looked into and you don't know if it will work or not, right? But if you're really good at that, you're saying like, okay, it's not a problem because there is no such thing as failure because I know it comes so cheap to say that, that every failure is also an experience that you gain and stuff like that but it truly is, if you're totally in that tunnel, if you're living in that bubble basically, then for you that becomes absolutely normal and for others then it becomes like, ooh, that's weird. And this is something maybe that I can say is maybe something I think for the good and for bad is important that people learn and know maybe about that the moment they start to stop going for the next thing, it might make them vulnerable for situations as we have in the past year and years before, right? Because they suddenly are not really savvy on how to react to new situations. Now for innovators such as I call myself, the unknown is actually where I feel myself quite comfortable where I draw a strength from it because I go, ooh, this is cool, it's like, you don't need to be shy because there's nobody can say like, ah, come on, people I've done that 20,000 times before, how did you not know? No, it's something completely you go like, ooh, I can play around, I can mess around, nobody can blame me, it's actually quite comfortable on that side. And this is a problem I see in many, many business environments that people are so well, always call it like they're perfect and excellent because they can go spreadsheets and simple calculations, they're really good, falling processes that have been designed before with very strict barriers and rules and guidelines. You're like, wow, the minute that doesn't apply, you're screwed, you're literally screwed. This is what I think happened right now to many companies, to many even private people because they were so well entrenched in their daily life that they just did not know how to go left and right instead. But they have to know it works out usually quite well because this is our strength of the human side, right? We can adapt so easily actually. I love that, I love how you explain that so nicely. It's so true that, and I wanna go even deeper a little bit because so the book AI Toolbook, it's in German, hopefully eventually might come out in English because is there other similar books in English out there? No, we looked into that up to today as we know, and there's no tool book like that and it's really meant as a workbook. So it's not about hypothetical things and stuff like that. It is really meant to give the power to actually anyone who wants to use the power of this technology and it is the technology itself or AI, you could say it's a tool itself and people need to know that. Otherwise, how can they talk about it? It's almost like electricity, 150 years ago. Yeah, and it has, I mean, it's absolutely perfect but the reason I ask on German and English is that thinking about failing or making mistakes, taking risk and having that vulnerability, really from my experience is something that was very well done and not just Silicon Valley but in the United States, they fail often, fail fast, learn from your lessons. It's good to be on that wave of kind of experimenting research development, making mistakes, learning and finding out how to solve those problems of the future to kind of catapult you. Here in Germany, what I've experienced is that there's a huge pushback of organizations and failing often and failing fast and sometimes it's our frustration, we like to say that but has that changed, has that shifted or are there still organizations or that thought in Germany that know really slow, Gnauikite, exactness and skepticism and being skeptical about things or not avoiding risks in certain things, is that still there or do you see that changing and moving? Oh, it's both actually. As any trend that comes, it causes also an anti-trend and in this case as well. So I see changes as larger, middle-aged English organizations or small, medium-sized backbone of the German industry is getting more international. They're also adapting to this school of thought you could say but we shouldn't forget that it's not that the companies make people, it's probably also mostly their families, the social environment and of course also school. And I personally think we have a problem in the school system, in the European school system, not that we need to adapt it 180 degrees but we need to change more for letting people experiment things to understand the system and not the results. And these are all problems with it and this is why it perpetuates into companies. And there, this is another thing, this is actually basis why I founded one of my three companies because I thought like, it's crazy, right? The most time that you are awake, most of the people are actually spending at a company, okay, working for someone else or for something else. And I think therefore that it is the responsibility of corporations to make sure that they continue to educate although this is a difficult or maybe even dangerous word but to continue to help these people to grow. And it's also important that it's not only the American way or Chinese way or the Russian way or whatever. I think we have to really learn from different cultures and really adapt and understand why they're thinking like that and then make up maybe also a little bit our own mind, what we think, what really helps. A good example, when we talk about AI, it's always ethics, right? And if you think about the German and the American understanding of ethics, it's quite different, right? Because for example, in Germany, they would say like, we know the life, every life is actually equally valuable whether it's the newborn or the 99 year old woman you know, with Parkinson's, well in the States it's different. Now is the one worse than the other? I don't think we can say that, right? I mean, we really have to accept that there are differences and so there are differences in how we do businesses and one we think is better, faster, whatever and the other one is maybe weaker but I don't think it is that easy, of course it's not. You kind of tickled into another area that we can dive into as well which we're gonna have hours worth of things to talk about today. Normally in the business world, there's the work life or the work part where the organization and where you work, those who you work with and then there's this life part and those two circles or those two areas always in the past, all over the world not just Germany have seemed to be kind of pulling at opposite ends and so when you say to educate to help your employees grow, to help them develop first and foremost, I think going back to the business romantic book from Tim Laiberecht and that concept is the majority of our life has spent at organizations that work at things and why would we not want to treat those people like family and care about them and trust them and enjoy our work and that big chunk of our lifetime with people that we really just say, boy, they're like family, they're like and I want them to grow and I want them to be healthy and I care about their family and their children and where they work and that whole thing instead there's been this big thing for many years and I was like, okay, I got to go to work today. You know, there's this, I got to go to work. I don't really, I don't really want to see those people. I don't really like them or we don't get along or when you're on your weekend or on your day off if you're walking somewhere and you see a colleague, a lot of people like have this job dissatisfaction and they're like, oh, I don't want to see my colleague. I'm on my vacation, I'm on my weekend. Let's hide and hopefully he doesn't or she doesn't see me and really those two worlds and there's been no better time than the COVID to see now that people are working from home how those two things can no longer be separate, that they need to be one, that organizations need to care about families and employees families, they need to care about their home life, their opportunities to work from home and whether they have health and their continued evolution because they're sacrificing their precious moments in life to be with an organization away from their loved ones and those two worlds really need to come together and we talk about the future of work or the future of new work but we need to stop talking about it. We need to start transitioning and making sure that happens. I see in your organizations that that was already kind of there on the right track but in many organizations there weren't any offices set up. There was no broadband, there was not enough room. People are working from their couches, their beds, their kitchens, getting ergonomic problems with their neck, their back, the way they were working, frustrations, all different things, isolation and other problems plus trying to share computer time bandwidth with their family, their children, whatever it is with this new environment. And so I love that you kind of bring that up but how do you see us moving towards the future to marry those two worlds or what do you see as far as you're in those worlds? So honestly again, I don't think I know the final recipe. I have some ideas and it has to do again with being innovative and experimenting. So one thing we immediately, for example, did last year, of course we sent everyone in March back home and literally we grabbed cabs and told them take the stuff we have, the good ergonomic chairs, home, everything you need because it's important that you function otherwise the business doesn't work a function but that's more a technical part. What we then did, you know and when the numbers were in decline, we did a risky game. We actually said in July, everyone has to come back to work, must, okay? Of course, we took some precautious measures but we forced them for months to come back. Why? Because we said now that we departed physically from each other and in our business especially our companies, we're very much into spending time together, putting your heads together, not just like individual and that doesn't work for every company, of course. So we forced them to come back and enjoy the time again and at the beginning, people were reluctant. So like, oh, why? It's so nice at home and things like that but sometimes the thing is what seems to be more comfortable at the beginning, you have to almost like in chess, you have to think several moves ahead and that was super important. If we wouldn't have done that, like other companies, they're actually right now fading and failing because they don't have the social bond that really comes through physical interaction to literally smelling each other, right? I mean, to have those micro moments of gestures that you can read and things that happen next to the bigger ones. So this back and forth, you know, this is gonna be interesting in the future. How will companies deal with that? Because right now we have people working from New Zealand, from South Africa, from South America, from Italy, from France, anywhere. You know, our people are dispersed because we told them, well, right now it doesn't make sense to be here because it's really difficult. And that works, of course, for them nicely that they're in a different environment. But I have to say, I make question marks if that works for ever and ever because what really makes an excellent team least in our concept is that we really bring it all together and together have these moments where we enjoy without strategy. You know, like in family where parties happen or moments happen that you didn't plan for, they just work like that. And this is something I think that we will still have to be working on where it's not easy to say like, okay, you need to have a cool company side and then you can do whatever you want elsewhere because just think about it that if you have a team of, let's say 20 or 30 people, if everyone would be doing anything at any time when he wants to, that's great for the individual. I think for the collective, and we're not talking about the company, but as a collective, you know, to really match each other's timetable, wow, that's gonna be almost like impossible and maybe it doesn't need to because I believe that sometimes really sitting down, concentrating, making the stuff, whatever it is, you know, that gives you the permission to then again, exhale a little bit. And I give you, if I may, just a short example. Please. I lived through myself almost 30 years ago doing my studies because we had a Swiss campus and a US campus and we had exchanges between the campus and stuff like that. And in Switzerland, you know, in Saturday back in the early 90s, you know, the shops on Saturday were closing like at one or two o'clock, you know, and Sunday was closed. So whenever the people from the Los Angeles campus came over, you know, doing their terms, it was funny to observe them that there were totally, you know, lost that at six o'clock in the evening, the coffee shop would be closed at one o'clock on Saturday, shop would close and that people would have to organize around that. But what actually happened is they had more spare time because the time that they could not work, you know, made them to organize everything around that. And myself, you know, then experienced the other side around in the States where 24 seven, you can do anything. Well, it actually, it's not that you have more time because you have more opportunities. You actually have a little less because you don't organize yourself as good. So I have to say this, and there were already this Germanesque, Swissnes, European thing about, you know, being a little bit more organized or let's say Northern European part, right? Well, it has its qualities as well. The same goes for how to organize, how do we organize the new work, you know, to bring it all together? Because sometimes, Mark, let's be honest, right? To close your laptop, to shut up your internet connection. I mean, come on, that's really important too, to just also not do the things that make a family. I totally agree. Can you tell us a little bit about the difference, the differences of your three companies and what, why three companies, what each of them does and kind of the philosophy behind that? Yes, I'd like to. So the first company I founded was ED Innovation, which in itself is essence today's all about creating circular innovation, circular economy, business innovations. So that's a focus there. So it's really about, we talk about, we prepare the fish to serve it to our clients, basically. So it's very much about from strategy to delivery of things. The second company then was already nine years ago, Symplexion, which was three other companies. We founded a company to doing IOT business development or technology development and helping larger German companies to use the internet as a source of managing data, creating digital twins and stuff like that. So it was very much focused on technology, which at that time felt really good because, you know, driving innovation and using modern technology to a demand thing kind of makes sense. Then the third company was Toy, Tools of Innovators that I founded about four or five years almost ago out of a need that we observed at ED because as we worked with very sophisticated mythologies and tools, customers were asking, well, can you teach us these tools as well because we'd like to apply them ourselves and not hiring you every time for a lot of money kind of thing. So what we felt like, well, of course we could do that. You know, we started doing small workshops with them and some training sessions. And then it actually evolved that we said like, wow, I mean, we can professionalize that. And this is basically what it then evolved into that Tools of Innovators is enabling and had the mission to enable 99% of the workforce to become innovative because we believe that if you're innovative, you're resilient for change because innovation is nothing as something new that you have never done before. Otherwise it's not an innovation, right? And that you applied in whatever mythologies you have in your toolbox basically to apply to that challenge. And so today, that company is more an academy builder. So we helped large corporations to build their own transformation academies to infuse their workforce with newest or most important tools and techniques. So these are the three companies. So you see they're all about innovation. One more into focus more niche technology, let's put it that way. And the other one I differentiate between, you know, the toy that basically teaches the clients how to fish themself and indeed to actually bring and catch a fish onto the plate so they can readily eat. I love that. So besides obviously the AI tool book, you do a lot in AI and in help organizations and you do IoT, but do you also do blockchain, distributed ledger technology? Do you do other emerging technologies or is it more focus in a few areas or is it kind of the full breadth? So we don't do completely everything because, you know, it's sometimes missing the experts, but as you said, for example, blockchain, most of the advanced also cloud-based technologies that we apply into our projects are all dealt through the company's inflexion because there, you know, there we have the special skills for technology development, mastering, software architecture, things like that. So this is all related there. So this is why it's very niche. It's more likely you have to imagine it's like a super task force that comes in when we have identified opportunities that indeed for our customers and clients, we can then integrate that into the project so that they can speed up and scale up basically to the solution. The challenge to Mark, I have to tell you quite frankly, is that with inflexion, we're following almost the classical old role of technology development for the purpose of a more capitalistic, you know, purpose you could say, you know, whereas that indeed we're actually radically changing, you know, the focus and really saying, oh, hey, we have to go for triple bottom line. We really have to see that every next product has to either minimize massively the impact that we have on this planet or actually be at least CO2 neutral. And this is a huge channel change and challenge in itself also for small organizations as we are at indeed. So not only is the book CO2 neutral, but it's offset through projects in Uganda, which is fabulous. But I wanna know how did you get into this idea of circular economy, regenerative economies, this regenerative way of thinking, this sustainable way of thinking, I mean, cause that's pretty progressive. I have my ideas, but I wanna hear really how you got there at such an early stage. Is there a tie to innovation and sustainability? Well, you know, it is in that respect and this is what dawned to me, not on one day, but it accumulated, I would say over the past four years, okay? Starting earliest 27, maybe even 2016 really dawned to me. Not that before I didn't have movements, we could talk to hours on that, but it really dawned to me that in the end, innovators are, I would say self feeling self guilty to 100%, we are responsible for the mess we are in. Full stop, we are the cause. We did it, there's no excuse to it. Of course, we had ideas why we wanna do it and it made sense at that time, but today actually, if you think about it, 200 years of innovation, yes, they grew everything we have, democracy, even democracy, knowledge sharing, yes, good things, healthcare so that instead of dying way before 30, we're now dying rather around 80, stuff like that, all because of innovation, because of this quest for the new for the next thing. No question about that, but at the same time, we know climate change, we diminished the population of different types of species, by 50%, it really had this metal had another side and it was not a good one. So I asked myself at a point in time, well, I can sell the business I'm in, so I get my hands off that thing, the hot plate, but that would change anything, right? So I felt really my responsibility, Carl, you came that far, now it's up to you to prove that you can make a change, that you need to be part of that change. And my hypothesis still is, well, then we of course could just be stopped doing what we're doing, I lay off everyone, you know, that's one option, but that's unrealistic, right? So the question is, can we with the skills that we have, do the other thing, really go out there with our customers and clients and look into, hey, is there a way to bring things in circle, for example, which would help not only to reduce many things, you know, like CO2 and other greenhouse gas emissions, but actually also rethink how economy needs to work, how value can be used to read it, because it's really screwed the system that we're working actually. And the more you look into that, you go like, wow, you know what, actually we can do something because we can not only talk to our customers and improve that, and there's always an economic benefit to it as well, but I also have to say, what we have to stop doing is in that context of thinking of this, you know, eternal growth and especially yield that we wanna have, because it doesn't help if we have too much left over, it's really a problem old. So this is a mentality shift that we have to do and no wonder Mark, right, that design, which is one thing that is very dear to my heart, it's design is a lot of psychology and my dream is of using that power of design not only to attract for the new cool stuff, but actually to change people's behavior. Maybe we manage that we can have way more joy that was less that we need to own or have and stuff like that. And so there's so much music in there and it actually also relates to the prospect of AI because you know, there's so much we need to do and in such a short amount of time if you really wanna change, you know, that I have my doubts that we can do it alone, we need some tool, a technology, not believe AI could play a pivotal role. I love, matter of fact, I'm gonna have in a week or so, I'm gonna have Ellen MacArthur Foundation talking about their new Circulatics 2.0 tool that they have. We're gonna do a deep dive about that tool for the circular economy. I think this circular economy, this closed loop way of thinking, this cradle to cradle, Michiel Bromgaard's here in Hamburg or the two, or Leuphana University, which is just a little bit south of Hamburg. And one of my mentors is actually William McDonough, Bill McDonough, who came up with cradle to cradle, helped push circular economy thinking and as a dame is there. So I love this thinking, but there's also a big portion of that, an aspect of regenerative economies. I mean, it's the same, regenerative is circular economy, regenerative is this. When I think about sustainability, when I sometimes I'll say I'm a sustainable futurist or a resilient futurist or a regenerative futurist and people like, well, Mark, I thought you were an activist and environmentalist, a tree hugger, okay, okay. What does that have to do with the future and innovation and there's really three pillars that most people don't get until they've studied sustainability environment until they've gotten into applying it into business to understand how it works and how it functions. And really the realities of that are is that for sustainability, you have a good knowledge of economies, economic models. So one of them you've mentioned a couple of times is capitalism. So capitalistic models or extractive economies. I understand those models. I understand how they work. And I understand another thing that you mentioned that they have a limit to growth. There's a point in time where you're tapped out, all the resources are gone, there's an end and there's a crash or it's over or we have a bubble that bubble crashes and someone's got to bail us out, got to print money or do something else to get us back going. But there is this deeper economic model and it's called ecological economics that deal with the regenerative models of our planet and of our earth and in the safe operating spaces of regenerative planetary boundaries. How quick do they regenerate and recoup and recover so that we'll always have these resources no matter what for probably hundreds of millions to possibly billions of years if we do it right. And so as somebody who would say, sustainable future is resilient or regenerative future. The first and foremost, the pillar of sustainability is ecological economics and understanding of different business and economic models. The second is innovation, sustainable innovations for purpose. So some design models, some innovations are obviously totally destructive. They sound great, they're look great, they're very siloed, there's a flip side to that coin that can be very destructive. And we don't have to go on those, but to that sustainability pillar is really those sustainable innovations. What are innovations that can solve our problems or designed a better future for us? One that is regenerative, one that is playing in those things. And each one of our innovations has taken us far, but now we need some innovations of sustainable innovations that keep up with our exponentially growing world. And the last one is that futurist or futurism, I say, how can you be a futurist? Well, sustainability is, how can you sustain yourself well into the future? Multiple generations, have enough resources to feed, clothe and protect yourself, have enough resources to pay your employees, have a planet to live on, have resources to create new products or to be able to do services, have the fresh air and water to drink, just to satiate the basic needs of humanity. And in order to be sustainable, you have to think a lot about that future. How do we get there? How, from this moment now and how bad will it be in the future? How do we change that? What do we do? And there's foresight tools, there's back casting, there's the three horizons, you know, they call it the third horizons or 3D horizons. And however you look at it and how will we get there? How do we meet that exponentially growing curve in a way that's long-term? And I was trying to not educate or evangelize but tell people about that because many people get stuck in the fact that, okay, Mark's a vegan or he's a tree hugger or an environmentalist or what does he know about the future? And they don't understand the realities, the truth, the learnings about sustainability go much deeper. So I mean, I'm sure there's people saying, why is Mark talking to Carol about the AI Toolbook? What does that have to do with circular economy sustainability that has everything to do with it? We did not leave the Stone Age because we ran out of stones. We left the Stone Age because there's a better way of doing it. More efficient, resource efficient and one that can take us much further and really the humane aspect and that's what I love about this. You really lay out the basics for everyone to spell the fairs and put the humane aspect of how we could really use it for the benefit. So you have, and this is where I wanna go into this a little bit more. It's really a path that you've laid out, a journey from the very beginnings and understanding and in the beginnings, what most of us who are novice or maybe even the ones who would say, how's Mark a futurist or what's that have to do with innovation? They would be saying, what I know about AI as the terminator is gonna come and get us and you talk about terminators, you talk about the computers and different things taking over the world, still on our jobs and the scary kind of a future. And you really put that into reality and dispel those fears. And then there's also the discussing of, the black box of AI and things. Why did you decide to give us this path? What set you out on this? What learnings did you have? Why you decided this is what we need? I know we need it. But I mean, kind of what led you on that journey to take us so nicely into it? So there are two things. First is my very strong belief that the systems or the systemic situation, which has always been like that in the world that we are living in a systems, right? Nature is a system. And although we are part of it, I don't think that we have to know how, as a community and also as an individual to really live in it in a sustainable way. Because we've started to accumulate things that we don't need because we're saving it for later and things like that. Of course, other animals are doing that too, but we did it in the extent that wasn't really good. So that you cannot stop. We are at a point where we need actually not only exponential technology that sounds cheesy, but we actually need to empower anybody, literally anybody to come up with radically potentially new solutions that help to manage this massive complexity because everything is independent from everything, right? So you really, if you turn this one knob here, and it will have impact over there. And we've heard it in the government saying like, well, you know, which are the jobs that are really, really truly important to the systems. And there is no such thing as this one thing that is important in the system because the system is consistent of many parts that are all independent and therefore important. But to manage this environmental crisis that we're in with all the also humanitarian aspects, look at the SDGs that you're an advocate for and things like that. I do really think that there are studies that prove with AI, we can change faster and better. Why not because people are stupid, but because the challenges are just too big to comprehend by a single person, even by a team of humans, and also we don't have time. So this is one thing, the urgency is literally there. And the opportunity as well. And I have to admit, I love also technology. I think used in the right way, we can do marvelous thing or we just have to go back in the stone age which I consider as being an option B which is fine, better than option C going to Mars. Anyway, the second part Mark is, you know, having done 25 years of innovation has also given me a little bit insight into what has worked and what has not worked. Where was it just like, oh, I do it because of God's feeling and where is it really that it becomes a process, something that you can repetitively do? Look a little bit of Apple or other companies that have been quite successful in repeating certain things, right? And being constantly, not only economically viable and feasible, but also to really meet targets that they set themselves. And this is where this book comes in that we really tried to was the AI planner which is a framework within the book that we really wanna try to take the people at their hands and guide them step by step through the part that they don't know yet which is really about how to actually come up with concepts and solutions with and for AI. Because, you know, everyone thinks it's a black box, you know, it's like your laptop or your computer just much more powerful and you can put in some, you know, like Amazon, Alexa, whatever, you know, hey, can you please come up with a dream solution and then it will work and it does it all automatically but this is not what it is about, really. It's still absolutely depending on us. So we have to drive it. It's not driving itself yet. It might in a distance that I don't know, maybe 10, 20, 30 years or never will happen that it does it all by itself kind of a hull, 9,000 things. But right now it's us and we have to use this technology to really make something with it. And it's not that difficult actually. I mean, it is like anything, you know, try and develop a new car, you know, manufacturer try to even create a windmill yourself without knowing how physics and mechanics work. It's difficult, but it's only as difficult as that. It's not more difficult. Okay, we've put people on the moon. So it's definitely way not more difficult than that. And this is what we want to give to any one because I don't think, because right now people think like, ooh, you need to have like this AI specialist meaning, you know, it's a data scientist. It's a special software engineers and things like that. You know, it's mathematical and stuff like that. Most people hate it math in college anyway, right? But it's not about that. It's about, you know, what do you want to do? And then we give a clear guideline on actually how anyone that really has never programmed a single line of code can come up. And then if you have that, you can go and find these experts that then can do the number crunching. But it is as if you would go to your bookkeeping and tell them, listen, you have to do my new startup, right? I mean, you know, just do it because you're experts in numbers and you make companies successful, but that's not the case. He only looks at your numbers and makes some credit spreadsheet stuff, but you have to come up with a great idea for your next company, not your bookkeeper. Yeah, and you guys really do a fabulous job at getting people through the basics and through the understanding. And as I would say even more than the basics, you give them a full rounded understanding. You answer some of the questions that are open and out there that have come, you know, just you dispel some of the fears. And then you go into wonderful examples. And so there's one of airport going through airport security. There's one of a clothing and fashion. And then you actually say, okay, well, what are the steps and processes? First is there a business case? Then what are the models? What are the questions? How do you set that model and that framework up? And you provide the blank canvases and the frameworks, you know, step by step. Some of those who are only listening to this on audio will be able to go to the video and look and get the book so that they can see the templates and the frameworks themselves. But what I love is really you take people through the AI value map, you know, it doesn't have a value and many other steps. So it's really complete A to Z, everything you wanna know of AI, how you could do it from, you know, the digital twins, the fashion industry, the airport security, many, many other examples. I don't wanna give the total book away, but then the frameworks. And then before you get into the frameworks and the tools, you actually explain, well, how do you use this tool and how do you set up the business case? Does it make sense? Is it something that's ethical? Does it, how does that factor in? Is it sustainable? Is it something that will be a value? Why do you want this? Why do you need this? How can it make the world a better place? How can it also be humane in the processes? And I love that step-by-step in the book that you do that. And I think that's as much as I wanna tease, but I know a couple of people who are currently going through emerging, some degrees, some emerging technologies specifically in information security and an AI and things. And I told them after I read it about it and they're like, oh my goodness, this is, I mean, cause there's very little that exists out there. And this is not an academic book, although it's much more. And that's one that you can apply into the real world, yet covers all the real-time up-to-date information. And so I thank you, all three of you for that and put this wonderful book. But I want to, before we go into our last few questions, I wanna get one of your biggest takeaways from the book of what you think, okay, this is the biggest learning I had myself and the best example that I like to share that people just absolutely need to know about AI and moving forward that really is something that the majority of us wouldn't know, kind of a teaser of why they need to get the book and need to get in touch with you. Oh, I will do so, I'm glad you asked Mark. So I think the biggest, and I will tell you even two things, but the first one, the biggest insight that we got is of course, working with experts, other AI experts. After we finished the book, we continued talking to AI experts out there that are really into the details, okay? And they were super thankful, us having written this book because it helped them to make a case to the majority of people actually, because they have felt also excluded, almost like nerds. Yes, we're a little bit geeks, and people are looking at them strangely because they know how to deal with numbers, you could say, and how to machine learning and things like that. Well, and this is exactly what we wanna open up. It has to do with culture. It has to do with the culture of understanding of opening this box, not of Pandora, but actually one that contains so much rich wealth that needs to be shared. And they're super thankful about that. They literally go, oh my God, you're helping us so much. And it's not for them that we intended to write the book, of course. We intended it for 99% the others, but they were like, oh my God, thank you so much. This has proven to us that it was so much needed. And this is also the second insight Mark, which I always wanted to write a book. I actually wanted to write a different book before I co-wrote this book. And I have to tell you, it's so much harder and so hard to write a two book, and a non-academic book that is not about lyrics, but it's really about processing things like that. Wow, so my respect goes out to all of those authors that write books for educations, for children, for schools. This is really hard work. For sure it is. I have had a couple others on the podcast before talking about the murdering technologies and AI, once specifically Christian Boos of Aragon. I don't know if you know him, but he's advised Merkel and was on the innovation and emerging technology council. I don't know what exact term is, dealing with some different things in that respect. And I said to him, you know, I would like to use AI as a form of kind of have this personal, because I dream a lot, I think a lot about the future. I think about tools that could help me in my mission to create more resilient, desirable, regenerative futures and things. And so I said, what I would like, and I don't know if I know enough about AI to do this, but I would like to get a real-time update of collective intelligence through AI. I would like somehow AI to constantly harvest all the information out on the internet and out all the books and wisdoms and knowledge that I kind of feel neglected. There are books out there, Carol, that have been there for decades that I've never read that I really wish I had. And the minute I find out about them and I read them, I'm almost frustrated that I didn't read them 100 years ago or when I was younger, because I think the impact, the change of having that knowledge, that information have read that book changes your life. And so no, I don't want the information overload and that real-time update of collective intelligence to just download every hour. I'd like to have it be in the direction of my passions of the knowledge and wisdom that I wanna learn, but have it be able to filter out the fake news and the noise and things like that. But I would love to see something like that in the future to say, okay, well, I'd like to know the latest on greenhouse gas emissions or ocean acidification, or I'd like to know the latest about big on food and that we get this real update of collective intelligence so that we don't make the mistakes that we've made in history. A lot of these things that we're doing over and over again is repeating mistakes that have already been done in history, whether it was colonization of India from the United Kingdom and things around food there or what's going on in the Amazon from Bolsonaro and the burning of the rainforest or whatever to just say, hey, let's not do those mistakes again, let's learn from our lessons and there's new wisdoms that we have for humanity that don't need to be repeated. And so when I read through this, I was thinking, how can we, how can I do that even just as selfish but I don't want it to be selfish. I'd like it to be disseminated to everyone and somehow that's my personal little twist on AI and what I got out of the book and also in past conversations. I don't know if you have any advice for me as far as what your thoughts and ideas on that, if I'm crazy, if I'm out there, if we're so far away from that, I would love to hear your input. Okay, I see that coming. Specifically what you just mentioned, I have the same and I think many people have the urgency to get this information, especially the one that this repetitive making mistakes that others have done before because whenever a life starts new, you go through these typical cycles, it's we can't evade that, but it will be great to have some sort of a collective wisdom that we could build up to that, at least get a reflection of that and say, ooh, am I just gonna bring some making that mistake? Love it, absolutely love it. And you know what, Mark, I hope, of course, although this is maybe a little bit too much to hope, but nevertheless, I hope that the book will empower people all over the planet to do exactly that, to come up with dreams and to translate them, hope that institutions, NGOs will probably curate money to then fund these types of projects because right now we don't have them. We don't have them enough to really go for that. And this is gonna be the interesting part because our collective wisdom, or the collective wisdom over the last hundreds of years and stuff like that, and you know that better than probably anybody else about farming, you know, that how can older, I mean, an old sound so negative, right? But how can used mythologies that have been quite successful, how can we reuse them again? How can we combine them? Or just like some people don't even know, and I have my father-in-law that is a passionate hobby gardener and he knows so much about soil and stuff like that where I go like, wow, I would not even find books with that knowledge. So yes, this is something that is so important. And you know what, it would open up a wealth of understanding also on a cultural point of view, which I'm very fond of because what do I know what's happening in other parts of the world because I'm just too distance and it gets filtered through media that is not really open. So yes, I really hope that the book will empower people that would be the biggest of all dreams coming true, honestly, and we put a lot of heart blood into it to make it possible that even the most youngest, most novice, or even, you know, seniors can really grasp their hand and come up with AI concepts that they can then really bring into action and make this planet a better place. I would love nothing more. I think that'd be great. And I really encourage all my listeners to go out and get that through our conversation a couple of times you've mentioned this, the limits to growth or that there's a, you know, there's a limit to growth. That comes from a book in 1972, The Limits to Growth from Don Alamedo's, Dennis Meadows, your grander, Steve Barron's. And at the time that MIT and these researchers came out with the book, The Limits to Growth and the World Model Three, people said, oh, that's a prediction, it's fake, it's not real, and there was a lot of controversy around it. And had we had collective intelligence, had we passed on that book or that knowledge a lot quicker, because now we're looking, that was 1972, you know, how many years, decades later, are we now saying, no, that was right, that was wisdom that we had back then, if we would have applied that learning, if we would have made some changes sooner because instead of debating, is that true? Is that against capitalism? Is that against whatever, you know, and had gotten the wisdom to say, no, that is absolutely true, it's been checked. And you also, this is the last teaser, I promise, in the book you talk about how AI was used in China to really, or it wasn't China, it was the big, I forget the name of it now, that AI was used, what's the name of the company, big, big blue? Blue. Oh, wow, now he got me on the run for it again. It's okay, I don't want, they're in the book, there's the basically how AI was used to look at all sorts of different areas to find out in December 2019, about COVID-19 and what was coming out and reports to kind of discern is that reality, is it not, how we can, and then human intelligence, human interaction kind of made some decisions, WHO and others got involved, but actually that is such a good tool that we can learn how, oh, is this valid, has this been tested? It's almost like peer reviewed in science. There is some really solid ways to understand the high probability of whether it's something that's fake news or if it's real information we should pay attention to. And I also had another gentleman on the podcast or not gentleman, it's actually Audrey Tang, she's now transitioned over and minister, digital minister of Taiwan, and she is so fabulous and they actually took from the doctor in Wuhan that says, hey, we've got a problem here and they use that same technology to say, no, this is legit, let's close down, let's make some things that I'm just, I guess where I'm going is that we would just be so much further along and that for me is just so frustrating that if we'd listened to the limits to growth, if we'd applied that instead of debating, we waste so much time debating and is it politically correct and that, and let's use some better methods of evaluation that will get us much better, faster results, not only for vaccines, for just living better in the future because a lot of that time that's wasted and we saw this with what happened with Trump in 2016 to that where he tried to get out of the Paris agreement, that whole four years of wasted that we could have been really going forward with climate action, with making changes to get now, I didn't think goodness is there, but any of that time is a delay and in that delay, honestly, I just need to tell you, human beings die because of that delay, someone's dying, someone's getting, because of air pollution, because of whatever is, we're losing lives, it's not just time, it's not just a push in a delay tactic, it's actually comes down to human lives, species loss, so other species lost and loss of biodiversity. So for me, it's just frustrating that we're kind of still stuck in the dark ages or the stone ages in some respects, instead of saying, hey, there are some better tools and methodology and that is really so clear in your book and I'm done harping, I'm done giving away all the tools on that, but yeah. But Mark, it's looking, I fully agree with you, that there have been also in the design field, Victor Papanec that wrote in the 50s and 60s of the last century about how sustainable we have to develop products and things like that and what does that mean sustainability and things like that and we haven't learned. This is a problem of humanity, but I would like to look into the future and yes, we weren't active in the last 50 years, the question is, can we be active in the next 10 years or in the next 30 years? Because I'm concerned that many people still are not aware of the situation that we're in, right? And this is probably a challenge that will not only be or not be sold by the book that we really have to put on the peer-to-peer human-to-human side, that we really have to bring up to people, educate them that really we are, the changes are so slow, that we are not aware that we really need to change. There's a book this 10 years to midnight kind of a thing. It's really a problem that we're running into. And I wish that more people would understand that we have not to change in five or 10 years that the goals of the EU won't happen by itself and also don't happen by politicians. It's us that read every single one that has to do something. This is where I think we also need to impact and if technology can help, that's great. But it's also just a part of where we have to understand our own conscious about what it means to live sustainable. It starts with the eating and how do we live? How much new do we actually need? And that has to do with my being myself an innovator, that sometimes the most innovative thing would be not to innovate at all because we don't need. How many more houses do we need? I always propagate, how much more of anything do we actually need if we are not growing it within Europe? I mean, the birth rate is steadily declining. So if we don't grow, why do we need a new IKEA furniture? Even if it's made out of wood, it's still not something we need. So these are interesting questions as well that we potentially can help to solve with AI, but first and foremost has to do with really get people like you, not only an activist, but a doer to get results. And this is what I'm fighting for as well. Well, I'm hopeful that we'll be able to work on some other projects here in the future and do some things. My hardest question for you today is really the burning question and you've heard it before. It's WTF and it's not the swear word that everybody's been saying during these crazy times. It's actually what's the futures? And I put the S on there because it's so important because there are different cultures and there's different futures all around the world for us. But for you, I wanna know, what's the future, Carol? That's really the most important question, the burning question. Oh, that's a quite open question. And now I don't know if you wanna hear that, but this is at least, it's not about the desirable future first, but what needs to happen because the desirable one is where honey flows in rivers, right? Where everything is in equilibrium, of course again, yes. But the question is, how do we get there? And I think it is unfortunate too late for normal measures. I think we will have to put, at least it's a theory and please don't get me wrong when I use a little bit of a war at knowledge. But I think we are at war with ourself and because we're killing, as he said, we're killing people by our non-actions or our actions and that are the wrong ones. So I think we have to get a little bit into a war modus where we are actually putting a lot of money that is usually spent for, I don't know what stuff, of course, also military, we have to put it into saving humanity on the planet. Meaning, for example, if we talk about carbon capturing technologies, that is super expensive, but we have to invest in a lot of these technologies, not in new car battery systems because the mobility is fucked up, sorry, not the cars. I mean, you can have clean fuel if you wanted to, but we have to massively invest in not individual private sector things, but in large scale systems such for water, for agriculture and all these stuff. And this cannot be done just by some nice green tech startups. It needs to be done by governments around the world, mostly the ones that are right now acting already on the bad side. So that means it's Europe, it's the United States, it's Asia with China and stuff like that. And we have to massively probe, there are theories out there that say we have to spend 10% or even more of our GDP to actually then build and distribute these type of technologies and systems and change. And yes, it will probably be five, maybe even 10 years where we won't be living as we lived in the decades before. But honestly, and this is my analogy to war, if I look at my grandparents or my parents-in-law that lived in Germany through World War II, they too had seven, eight years, desperate years and they prevailed. They came out stronger than before, the ones that survived, true. But this is, we are not at a point I think where we can say like, oh, it's all gonna be fine, we just have to tweak some screws and it's gonna be good. No, we probably have to take some more radical, I don't wanna say desperate measures, but measures that will help us not to become desperate in 10 or 15 years. This is what I would be hoping for, looking forward to. And I think it's even a good thing because it doesn't mean that we're gonna kill each other, whose guns, it's the opposite. We actually are gonna standing together and working with our brain capacity, with our muscles, with all the assets humanity brings to the table. And of course, technology in parts, we can really change. And then once we manage that, I think then we can also, because of the way to that goal, we will have a world that is gonna be quite different which is therefore also good because going back to the old system just doesn't have, it doesn't hold, it doesn't, there is no value in it. We have created too much inequality and pain and suffering and whatnot. And of course, a few have been quite lucky, but I think the luck I've lived in my life, I think it is unfair if not everyone could have the same. Boy, I love that. I could go, we could spend another two days just on that. I agree, we are in many respects our own worst enemies. We're at war, which is sounds crazy with ourselves and we don't even realize it. And Carl Sagan said it so nicely and I'm sure you've heard this from me before. He said that there's this growing awareness awakening consciousness that sees the earth as one single organism and an organism divided amongst itself or fighting amongst itself is doomed. And it's the same thing, humans fighting amongst themselves or even with your own self, our own worst enemy, we're doomed and I'm not a doom and gloom. I'm very optimistic, but we need to use that same thinking there's two sides to the coin always. There's the negative and doom and gloom, but that can be a superpower that we can flip instead of fighting against ourselves and being our own worst enemy, we can actually use that as a tool to advance us to a much different futures and use all the things that you talk about. These last three questions that I have for you are really for my listeners. If there was one message you could depart to my listeners as a sustainable takeaway that has the power to change our life, what would it be your message? At least for the ones that are in the power of doing new stuff to really think about how much of that new do we really need and how much of totally different things do we actually need to do? What should young innovators in your field be thinking about or looking for ways to make a real impact? Well, it goes a little bit similar to the first answer to your question, Mark. I think that the circular economy you can, the system's also about not only to reduce the impact to waste and to redesign things for to last longer and things like that, but also to, as you are propagating, regenerate earth and our resources. This is what needs to happen for innovation and I don't see that happening enough, so this is where the pivotal shift needs to happen. If they hear that, go read, go ask, Allen McArthur Foundation, for example, has lots of resources and don't go the other way because it's just putting more bad stuff in our backpack that we have to carry on. I love that, I love that analogy as well, as I think a lot of us are tucking away these hot potatoes or these rocks of problems into our backpack, stuffing them in wherever and we don't grab them and say, oh, that's a hot rocker, that's a problem, work through it and get rid of it, cast it off, fix it, put it somewhere where it can do some use. Instead, we just say, oh, we'll deal with that later and eventually you're just stuck, you're not going anywhere because your overload, you explode, you panic, have a burnout or whatever and we really need to learn how to work, to use the tools and that's why I love your tool book to say, okay, okay, here it is, bam, let's put it in this category, let's get rid of it or let's make it work for us in a positive way. What have you experienced or learned in your professional journey so far that you would have loved to know from the start or even that you would give your kids as an advice? Learn from your dad, this is what I would not make this mistake again. Well, no, I had to, you know what? I think it's important that we live through certain stages but, and I, again, I said from the beginning I was quite lucky throughout my life and I think I had in a very early stage of my career I had a boss that treated me in a way that I said myself, hey, should I ever become a boss? I want to be like him because he treats me as if I'm his friend, his colleague, you know? There's, it was really supportive, everything, okay? Maybe from a business perspective he was not super successful, who knows, you know? But as a mentor, as a person, perfect and this is what is important. As you said about family working together, things like that. I hate hierarchies in organizations. I understand why they can be helpful but honestly, you want to work with someone that you kind of respect, maybe even loving things like that and this is what I learned very early on and I hope anybody can make an experience like that because it empowers for life. Gerald, that's all I have for you unless there's something you didn't get to say we could talk for hours. We have so many things, we could do a deep dive but I think we've given enough keys on the book and kind of your thoughts and the wonderful things you do. I'll list in the show notes where everybody can find the book and your companies and get in touch with you. Is there anything else you'd like to add before I say goodbye? Well, Mark, thank you. You are such a wonderful person. You are for me also a very much mentor. It's someone that I look up to and I respect and I love talking to you. So thank you so much for having me on your show and I look definitely forward to talking to you very soon again. Thanks so much, Carol. I feel the same way. You're a true wonderful human being. Thanks so much. Thank you. Bye-bye.