 Welcome to all of you. Thank you for joining us today. We have a really special episode and guest. Anthony Wilson has joined us today to talk about, so you wanna be a podcaster and what that all entails, including the cost. So I learned in our green room chatter that Anthony is a wealth of knowledge and a very versed in accounting. And so I'm looking forward to learning from you Anthony and thanks for joining us today. If we haven't met yet, Julie and I are here. Julie is the CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. I get to have fun each and every day, serve alongside Julie as the co-host. I'm Jarrett Ransom, the non-profit nerd CEO of the Raven Group. Julie and I are both extremely honored and privileged to have the continued support from all of our presenting sponsors that you see right in front of you on the screen. We do encourage you to check them out. So these companies exist for you and your mission and your community and they are here to lean in and pour into you to help you do more good throughout your community. So please check them out and please tell them thank you because they really continue these conversations and we will be celebrating our 500th before we know it. And again, today's guest to talk about podcasting is Anthony Wilson, welcome. Hey, thank you Jarrett. Thank you for having me and I'm so excited to be here and Julia, thank you. Julia was on my show and then invited me to come on your guy show. So I'm so excited to be here. Nice, we flipped the script and we're putting you in the hot seat. Yeah, and not only that, but you're putting me on video too, which is interesting. I'm used to being behind the mic, but not being recorded. So this is a different experience for me. Well, you know, it's really interesting because I've probably only done about a dozen podcasts and they're so different from what we do with a broadcast every day. And you said something during our conversation that just flipped a switch. And I was like, I need to have you on to talk about this because you asked me a question and I was answering it. And you said, well, for our audience, you can't see what Julia's face looks like. I remember that. But this is, and I was like, wow. So it really started a conversation in my mind with you. And so Jared and I were super excited, but first we want to start off with, is this just an ego thing? Are podcasts really able to make connections for us in this sector, in the nonprofit sector? Yeah, now that's a great question, Julia. And I think that that is a perfect place to start. And, you know, the interesting thing about podcasts is that there really aren't that many of them, right? And so there's really not a ton of competition out there. There are over 500 million blocks, 500 million. There are 30 to 40 million active YouTube channels, right? So like you guys, right? I mean, that's like, there's a ton of competition there. Just this past summer, we passed just over a million podcasts, OK? And most people would say, oh, my God, that's still a lot. But if you peel back the numbers, they're really only about 300-ish thousands that have 10 or more episodes, OK? And so it's a really... Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, go back. Yeah. Only 10 or more episodes? 10 or more episodes, right? So there are a lot of people out there, or I shouldn't say a lot of people, but there are a number of shows that have produced fewer than 10 episodes. And that could be for a variety of reasons, right? Sometimes people just do a podcast and they do it for five, six, seven, eight episodes, and then that's it, then it goes away. And then there's some people who start and they're like, this isn't for me, and they give up. But of the million plus shows that are out there on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or the other players, there are around 300,000 or so that have 10 or more episodes. And I was shocked when I heard that. Yeah. Me too. I'm shocked hearing that as well, because my perception is this has become a very flooded platform. There is a lot of noise. There is a lot of competition. There's a lot of, you know, do we listen to murder mysteries? Do we listen to, you know, just for pleasure, for business? And so really, you know, I am curious how we can use a podcast platform to help make connections. Yeah, that's a great question, Jared. And the question I get a lot is, can I make money doing a podcast? Right. And it's not necessarily that the podcast in and of itself is a business that makes tons of money. But to your point, it's a great way to make connections, right? It's an intimate conversation with the people that are listening, right? You are in their ears and they feel like they really know you and you're building a connection with them. And it's interesting when you meet people face to face or if you ever meet and your listeners face to face, they feel like they know you, like you are one of their really good friends, even though you've never met face to face. And that is super, super powerful. So, you know, one is just a great way to build connections, great way to build relationships. You know, what all of us have in common is that we are subject matter expert on something, right? I mean, it could be knitting, it could be how to play baseball, how to play basketball, how to coach, how to fix a car, how to fix your sink, whatever it is. All of us know something that is unique to us that we could share with other people, right? And so any of us can start a show. It doesn't take a lot of expertise and it doesn't take a lot of money to do it. You know, I'm gonna push back a little bit on this because it seems to me that in the realm of the nonprofit sector, we have so much passion and we have a lot of expertise, but we don't have process and we're not good about starting things that are different. I mean, Jarrett has said this from the get-go and I'm always reminded that this sector lags behind and that we've been due for a shake-up and maybe that's what the pandemic has forced us into, doing new things. I would imagine in all these nonprofits across the country if somebody came in from the marketing communications team and said, hey, let's start a podcast, the main thought would be like podcast, we're not gonna do that. We need to buy more soup bowls because we're feeding people. And so this, Anthony, to me is one of those things that is kind of thinking outside the box. So can you start us off with what are some basic things that we need? I mean, for example, are you going to a broadcast studio every day to do this? Or have you created your own podcast studio? Yeah, I've done it in the comfort of my own home. I'm in my own home office and it's pretty simple to do. A lot of people think that, or a lot of people are intimidated by this. If I tell them I have a podcast, they're like, wow, oh my God, it's almost like, I've created my own newsroom in my house and that could be further from the truth. But you really only need a handful of things. So one is you need a computer, which most of us have. Two, you just need some basic equipment. So like a microphone and some headphones. And you see I have on some kind of more professional headphones, but you don't need this. Whatever you use with your mobile phone, it's perfectly okay. Number three, if you're going to interview guests remotely, you need some kind of interview platform, like Zoom or Skype, which you can use for free. And those are totally fine. If you want to use something a little bit more sophisticated, there are a handful of podcast platforms out there, they charge, they don't charge a ton, but I would say if you're going to get started, you don't need to start with that. Then you need editing software. And if you have a Mac, GarageBand comes for free on your computer. If you're using a PC, you can download Adacity, that's free as well. They look a little bit intimidating, but there are a ton of tutorials on the internet, which will teach you how to use them. You know, next, you need a name. Do some brainstorming, come up with a name. You need some podcast art, which is the logo in the picture you see when you download a podcast. And you need a podcast host. And this is the only subscription that costs a little bit of money. You have to pay like $10 to $15 a month just to have your show hosted on a platform. And that is the software platform where you load your show up, and then that feeds it into the delivery mechanisms like Spotify or Apple or Google or wherever you actually listen to it. But the beauty of it is you only upload your show once, right, into that podcast host, and then Apple or Spotify or iHeartRadar, whoever it is, they come in routinely during the day and they pull those out. They pull out anything that's new. So it's really simple. People think that you have to load them to all those different platforms and you don't. Okay, I did not know that. Lost me at editing because that is where my brain rise and says, no, I don't. There might be tutorials, but that's not where I want to learn. But I also want to say there are so many resources out there of other people that can help to edit. It might increase cost, but that is not the end all be all if you don't want to learn GarageBand or the other one you mentioned. You can still produce a podcast, host a podcast and have that service done by someone else. I'm sure that's happening. Is that right? Oh, absolutely it is, absolutely it is. And there are a ton of people out there, both for companies and independent operators who will edit your show. You can go on, you could get a virtual assistant to do it or you can go on to many of the platforms like Fiverr and find people to do it there. But what I did for me was I started off editing because I said, I at least want to know how it's done before I give it to somebody else. Now that doesn't have to be how everyone does it. That's what worked for me. And so since then I have offloaded a couple of pieces of my editing process, but not all of it. But I helped eventually to be able to do that. But I think that everyone should at least know how to do it. Oh yeah, I agree. Now I have a question and it is totally like, from the hip just curious, how would one rate success of a podcast? Is that by how long someone listens to a podcast? Is that how many episodes? Is that by reviews? Like how do we measure success? Yeah, no, that's a great question. And one of the interesting things about podcasting is still a while, while last. There aren't a lot of rules and the metrics are not great, right? But to answer your question, yes, sort of downloads, how long someone listens, the number of episodes is also a good indication of success. You know, it doesn't happen overnight. You know, you have to start this and you have to stay, it's not for the week, right? You know, one thing that people think is, oh, if I just put up a show, millions of people will come. And no, you have to work at growing your show. You have to promote it. You have to do a lot of work. But yes, the number of downloads and how long people listen are probably the two biggest metrics. Okay, thank you. So we, I'll give an insider, you know, peek behind the curtain. We, our shows are 30 minutes. We do five a week and it takes about five hours per episode. When you look at the production, editing and the upload and the administration. So five hours for a 30 minute show, what does that look like in podcasting? Yeah, no, it's a good question. So, you know, I spend, this is kind of how a show ultimately gets posted for as one of my episodes. So I spend time researching guests and then I spend time sort of reaching out to those guests because not everyone you reach out to will respond. You know, as you know, Julia, so I reached out to Julia and then she responded back to me and then we had a chat before the episode and then I spent some time putting together some questions that I was going to ask her in the show and share those with her. And then... I did not look at them and which is, I'm in a man up, you sent me this thing and I was like, you're like, well, did you open it up and read it? And I was like, so I just, I couldn't lie. I said, no, I didn't. Yeah, no worries. Some people do. I thought it was more just like the links. I didn't, and because for me, Anthony, I was like, this is, this is all sound. How hard can it be, right? I didn't think of it that you had a run of show. Yeah. Which is a problem. And some people love it and some people are like, oh, you know, I know I talk about this all day long. I don't need emails, right? Everybody's different. And so let's say, you know, maybe I spend, I probably spend about five hours a week sort of researching and reaching out to guests. And then once I have a guest, I probably spend like another hour doing the show overview, which I sent to you. And then we record about 30, it's 30 minute episode, but the whole ordeal takes you about 45 minutes of us getting on, chatting, doing the interview and then doing a wrap up. And then I probably spend another, let's say probably two to three hours in editing. Sounds like a lot, but the thing is, they're just like a lot of little details. Like no one thing takes a long time, but they're just like 50 things that take like a little bit of time. You know, Anthony, you're speaking our executive producer, Kevin Pace's love language. Our viewers can't see him, but he's on with us and he's the one that does the heavy lifting. Jared and I get to chit chat and be all fun and great. And then we're done and his work starts and he has a lot. He has a good four hours, like I said, work on top of the work that Jared and I do. So yeah. Well, as you said, some people hand it off. Maybe I need to talk to him after this. But you know what? It seems to me, Anthony, that, and correct me if I'm wrong, it seems to me that the editors that you're gonna use, if you go, you know, if you farm this out, a sound editor is very different than the visual editor, like what Jared and I are using. Yeah, yeah. Is that true? Well, I haven't done video, so I don't know for certain, but I actually did find a sound editor. This guy is great. He works on a Dave Ramsey show and he was introduced to me by one of my guests. We were kind of having a conversation like this. We were talking about editing. He says, oh, you know, my guy is great. And so I chatted with him and we sort of, you know, to keep his time down because, you know, it's not inexpensive. It's not owners, but it's not inexpensive. So we kind of have a deal that I give it to him at a certain stage, right? And so, and then he kind of does the rest. And so it's not a ton of work for him and it's affordable for me. Well, let's talk about affordability. What are the costs? And again, if you joined us very early on, you might have heard that Anthony is also a numbers guy. And so you have put quite a bit of thought or maybe it's just, you know, natural thought, but what are the costs of a podcast production? What should we consider if this is something we are even considering? Yeah, it's not expensive at all. Like people think that this costs a ton of money, but if you can see my setup here, my microphone setup, less than $150, right? And you don't even need all of this to get started. I mean, I have a microphone. This is Audio Technica 2100 microphone. I think it's like 60 or $70. I have a boom arm and I have a pop filter. I mean, all of this together was, like I said, 125-ish dollars or so. And then I have, you know, where I am now, I have a handful of subscriptions and those costs a little bit more, but to get started, free Zoom or Skype, free Adocity or GarageBand, you know, the only thing that you have to pay for is that host that I mentioned before and kind of the two most popular hosts are Buzzsprout and Lipson. They're about $10 to $15 and off. So, I mean, literally, you could get started with as little as $125 and $15 and off. I'm gonna challenge you a little bit on that. This seems like a heck of a lot of time. Is that, I mean, I'm actually shocked because I think I'm a little prejudiced because I think, oh, we're broadcasters, you know, we're so much more important than the broadcasters. And it's really not true, but it seems, it's shocking how much time one episode is gonna cost you in terms of that production. And I think when you started us off with this conversation about the number of people that can't get past 10 episodes, is that an indication of they just can't do the process and the time? Yeah, I think sometimes people just give up, right? And it's a labor of love. I mean, it has to be for you, right? And you have to, you know, there's people, and I thought this too, I listened to the episode, oh my God, this is fantastic. How hard could this be, right? But you don't see all the work that goes on to get that episode published. And there are hours of researching guests and reaching out to them and having conversations and sending emails and follow up and doing an overview and a run a show and then, you know, editing the episode. I mean, it's not for the weak of heart. You have to be committed to it. Absolutely. We have a couple of questions that came in. I think we should pull them up and address them. One of our viewers wants to know if there are any resources that review podcasts that could help us decide which podcast might be of interest to us, like a New York time book review. Is there anything that is serving in that role that you're aware of, Anthony? Something to help you, to help recommend a podcast that might be of interest to you. I think, yes, as well as a rating, I'm thinking of like, a neighbor, tooth, tooth, or... Right, so we can learn. Yeah, if you're on, if you're in the Apple ecosystem, you could just go into Apple Podcasts and you can search by category and podcasts will have ratings like you see on Yelp, right? The listeners have rated the podcast, two, three, four, or five stars. And people will leave reviews as well. So that's a great way to find out what may be of interest to you. Oh, that's good. Well, and I had mentioned earlier, how do we measure success of a podcast? And I know anytime I listen to a podcast, the host typically adds in to their outro. If you liked what you heard today, go ahead and give me a review. That definitely helps, perhaps even in the search engine. So hopefully that helped our viewer. Another question that came in here, and I have an answer, but I also wanna, Anthony and Julia, if you have additional answers, please feel free to add to it. Someone is asking, are there NPO, so are there nonprofit organizations that are producing their own podcast? And if so, what is the focus of their podcast? So the one I wanna mention is Rob Harder. He is with the Christian Center of Park City, so Park City, Utah. He is the CEO of the nonprofit. Again, Christian Center of Park City. He focuses his podcast on leadership. So that is his podcast focus, but it is for the organization itself. You might wanna check that out. I was ironically talking to another client of mine that does pet therapy programming, and they are just looking at how they might embark on, no pun intended, embark on podcasting. And so that would hopefully, as we started out today's episode with Anthony, talking about how this platform of podcasting can help to make connections. And I loved what you said, Anthony, because it allows the listener, because we are in their ears, as you said, the opportunity to get to know us, right? And so that helps to build relationship and rapport. It helps to build community. And so I think there's some great opportunity there, and I've learned so much from you, but are you, Julia and Anthony, are you aware of any other nonprofits that have dedicated to a podcast? Well, I'm thinking, first of all, I'm totally floored by how Anthony started this conversation with these numbers. And I'm thinking back, I haven't seen anybody move forward with depth, like you have and like what you're talking about. And so I can see the fits and starts of things. What are some of your favorites and some of the things that maybe you measure yourself up against, or maybe you don't? Yeah, you know, what I follow is a lot of small business podcasts, because I think that those can serve as a great example of how to do what you're trying to do. Because even those nonprofit podcasts that you mentioned, I mean, they're kind of following a business model, right? They're either trying to build listeners, or they're trying to build community, or they're trying to present themselves as a subject matter expert. You know, and so a couple of podcasts that I listen to and that I've used as a model are Pat Flynn's Smart Passive Income, which is a great one. And I actually took this podcasting course. And so I suggest that as a place to start. I didn't mention that earlier when you said some costs. You know, you don't need to start with a course. You know, you could sort of do your own internet research and find things and do it on your own. You definitely could do that. But taking a course sort of cuts through a lot of the clutter and gets you to where you want to go a lot faster. Yeah, that's to that end goal. Yeah, yeah. Another podcast that I like is Nick Loper, Side Hustle Nation. You know, another good one, right? I mean, they really sort of put this in perspective for you and help you focus, you know, sort of give you the simple steps to focus on what you need to focus on to create a successful platform. You know, this has been amazing. And I'm so appreciative that you would come on and actually give your trade secrets, as I would say to us. I mean, because this is mysterious for a lot of us. And I know when Jared and I started, I mean, we have grown a lot from, you know, we're now in our third year, starting our third year. I mean, a lot has changed from us, the technology. I mean, it has not been easy. And so I really respect this process that you've walked us through. As we get ready to let you go, what does your success, your future success look like? Like if you could maybe share like some of your goals, are you looking at, you know, more episodes, more your sponsors, viewers, I mean, everything, like how are you measuring yourself, I guess? No, that's a great question, Julien. I'm glad that you asked that. Because when I started this, I thought of myself as, you know, this person that volunteers for these local nonprofits, right? And I saw that they all had very similar problems around, you know, particularly around money and fundraising, but just, you know, marketing, organization like everything, right? Because all these people are doing this as a sort of, you know, they're all weekend warriors. It's not a full-time job for any of them, right? And then people leave and new people come in and you're like, you're recreating the wheel. And I thought, this is crazy town, right? There should be a place where, you know, good ideas are curated and, you know, I can come in and pick and choose what I need. Well, then after I started doing this, and I saw how people were, you know, using podcasts to, you know, basically have a small business, I thought, well, hey, look at all these organizations that have trouble raising funds, particularly membership organizations that are constantly churning members and never really able to grow substantially. And I thought, hey, they could use a podcast as a way to have like a little business. It doesn't have to make a ton of money, but you know, what if your podcast or online business could replace your membership dues, right? And now you're not so stressed about going out chasing all these members for $100 or $200 or $300 or whatever it is. So one of my missions is to help, you know, kind of be small membership-based nonprofits, grow a podcast or online business to raise enough money to replace those membership dues. Wow, great. So I actually find this episode that Julia was a guest with you, Anthony, and how can we hear more about you and Groupfinity? Yeah, absolutely. So go over to groupfinity.com and if you click on podcasts, it will show you all the episodes. And I believe Julia's episode number 31, and she did a fantastic job. Good, I wouldn't expect anything less. Well, you know, well, you know, Jared, I love to chat. So it was like, I was like, no hair, no makeup, easy, dude. But this has been really, really interesting. I suspect that we'll revisit this because I'm with you, Anthony, because I think this is really a fascinating thing. And again, to quote Jared, you know, our industry, our sector needs to be shaken up. And we've been forced into a shakeup with the pandemics, but this is one of those things that really could assist us with marketing and communication and building support and sharing our stories. And so it's been fascinating. I've just loved it. And I'm so delighted that you would join us today. So here's Anthony's information. Check him out, check out his podcast. You will recognize some of the folks that he's interviewed because there's some folks that we've interviewed as well. And so that was kind of fun to see, you know, what you've got going. Again, I'm Julia Patrick. I've been joined by the nonprofit nerd herself, Jared Ransom. We are delighted that you've been here. And if you missed some episodes, as we mentioned, we're marching towards our 500th episode. And in our archive, which you can access through Roku, YouTube, Amazon Fire TV, Vimeo, if you're coming to us from North Africa or Europe, check us out on Daily Motion as well. All of our presenting sponsors are here supporting you, supporting us. And so we are incredibly grateful. As we end every episode, we want to remind you, and I think ourselves, stay well so you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow. Anthony, thank you. You're a rock star.