 I'm sitting here with Joshua, Michael, and Michael from Remnant Radio. Gentlemen, welcome to the program. Thanks for having us. Great to be here. Good to be joining you. So, let's start with this. How did Remnant Radio come to be? So, I started Remnant in 2017. So, I was kind of raised in the classical Pentecostal tradition. You're familiar with Steve Hill, Brownsville? Oh, okay. So, Steve planted a church in Dallas, Texas. I went to that church as a disciple to that church. Went to the Bible school there. The worship pastor went and planted a church. I worked for him for a while. So, I was in that kind of classical Pentecostal vein. I got a ton of respect for that tradition, though I don't necessarily find myself in that space anymore. I was kind of pushing on some things, like, on authority in the Bible's authority versus my leader's authority. I had some questions about how the church was governed and organized. And then I just started being introduced to a group of guys that were doing prophecy. Like, we believed in all the gifts. We didn't see people doing prophecy. Right? Like, we had tongues. Right? Like, that was the thing. Like, you've arrived charismatically when you can talk in tongues. Right? That was it. So, we believed in the gifts theoretically. So, I started this podcast because I want to start talking theology. I want to start engaging with stuff. And there wasn't a lot of that going on in the classical space. So, I started going outside and inviting people on. That's how I met Miller. His Miller was one of the guys that was recommended to me. And he came on for an episode. My co-host at the time, Jeff Gray, helped me do all these interviews. He was filling the pool of family and business, got out of remnant. The week that Miller said, Hey, I love being on remnant. If you ever needed me to fill in to be a co-host, you just let me know. And he was asking, like, if Jeff is out of town, if Jeff's on vacation. Well, he hangs up the phone and Jeff calls me like an hour later saying, Hey, man, I know we've talked about this a lot, but I need to take a step back. I got to be done with remnant. I called Michael right back and said, Hey, you want to be the co-host forever? And he was like, I don't know about that. I live in Frisco. It's like an hour and a half away. Let's see. And he graciously accepted, came on, and obviously the show took off after he joined. Then the major downturn. Yeah, just the views just crashed. No, but that's how we got started. And you kind of heard, they had a 20-year-old friendship. So when... Michael and Michael. Michael and Michael had a 20-year-old friendship. Yeah. So when Miller moved to Denver to plant a church, Michael was kind of the fill-in for that co-host position because it was like really natural. It was like... Well, you had moved the studio over to his church. That's right. Yeah. And so, and the chemistry was already there as well. So it kind of worked out, I think. Yeah. Timeline, 2017, 2019. 2018 is when I came out as a guest. That's right. 2019 became the co-host. And then 2020, Michael was brought on. What I find so refreshing about remnant radio. Now, obviously, you all disagree with each other. Oh, totally. In one area or another. Sure. Yeah. And there are definitely areas where you and I disagree. Sure. But I've seen the way in which you handle those disagreements. Very lovingly, very respectfully. And I think this is what the body of Christ needs. This is part of the reason why I wanted to talk to you guys about what you're doing. I think it's something very special that you have in that you're able to bring these people on with different, not necessarily varying views on the foundational truths. But in the areas where there are debates on more specific doctrines, you're able to bring them on without being defensive or hysterical or get angry should they disagree with you. And I really appreciate what God is doing through remnant radio. Because again, though we vary on some things, I think ultimately we agree on Jesus and the fact that you're getting people more interested in studying the scripture. Studying theology. Understanding even things about their own doctrine maybe they never knew before. And so that I certainly appreciate. And additionally, even in getting to know you're just a little bit here in the studio. You guys were back there as we were getting ready. You're joking. You're laughing. It's like, well, these guys enjoy this. They're immersed in this in a very positive way. And that definitely speaks to what you're describing in terms of your friendship. What is that like in terms of your friendship traveling together? Sometimes I'm sure working together in the ministry. What are some of the blessings of being able to do that with each other? It's everything. It's life. It's family. It's theology. It's, you know, I've got people in church. I've got a question about how to handle the situation or that situation. Like we're just, we're there. We're friends. And I think that we're friends first. I think honestly, if remnant was to take a headshot tomorrow and not make it, we would still be friends. I believe that to be true. We'll see. They're still trying to figure that out. I think the chemistry feeds into how we work with each other on the show. And there's even kind of, you know, when I was invited on in 2020, there was only one weekly show and it was just a theology interview. And Miller took a hiatus. And that's actually how I came on in 2020. Show, as soon as Miller left, the show really took off. It did blow up. Yeah. It actually, it wasn't because Miller got off. It was because COVID. And everyone had nothing to do. Theologians are like, I don't know. I guess I'll get interviewed by these young guys. And suddenly their schedule is wide open. Yeah. So remnant took off that year, the year of COVID. And then after you've been a year planning your church, it was like you're entering into this like new season where you kind of had a little more time on your hands again. And we just had this idea of doing a show with just the three of us on the gifts of the spirit. So we do a Monday show where Josh and I interview somebody. And then we do a Wednesday show that's the three of us. And it's always something on the gifts of the spirit. And so where Michael and I come from this background of we've had like very scripture-based, but cessationist background. So where certain gifts of the spirit have ceased, like prophecy healing tongues, as well as charismatic kind of coming together. And then Josh was a very Pentecostal background and kind of found theology. But when you talk about like the friendship, so we have this like interesting confluence of backgrounds. But then when you throw in, we're laughing with each other all week long. Sometimes weeping with each other. Sometimes like just dealing with personal problems. It feeds into when we all come together on the show. Yeah. And to your point, like the Wednesday show has been, I think, fantastic for our audience to see what it looks like. And I don't mean this to say that we don't want to have a superiority complex, but just to say that there's something that I think is different about what we're talking about when it comes to spiritual gifts. My side, and I wouldn't say that my church was in disorder or unbalance. I wouldn't say that they were the ones that I was raised in. But I was in proximity to things that I felt like I saw that seemed to be out of bounds. So some of our content is going, this seems, if you travel into a Jell-O Kingdom, maybe we need to pull Reigns back here a little bit. And then over here we're going, the cessationist documentary, that's way out of bounds. You don't engage with a single theological argument. You're just attacking people's character. Like that has nothing to do with the Bible says on this. So let's pull that in here. And we found that by doing that, there was a wild group of people, a large group of people, a remnant, if you will, of individuals who were like, we feel the same way. We feel like this is too far. And we feel like this is too far. So what's left? And that's where we've been able to, I think, meet our audience. Now, Michael had mentioned, just a few moments ago, somewhat of a definition on cessationism. I'm wondering if you guys might be able to give a more detailed definition for those who may not know what that is. Yeah, cessationism is the belief that certain particularly apostolic sign gifts, as they call them, have ceased, such as tongues, prophecy, and the gift of healing. They will redefine them outside of what I believe is a biblical criteria to say that healing is to be able to commit, do healing on command, tongues, which is always speaking in known human languages, typically for the purpose of evangelism, and there's going to be different definitions between cessationists, and prophecy, the ability to infallibly speak, again, usually on command at any given situation about things that are happening in the future. So they will say these three gifts are inherently tied to the apostolic, the apostles' ministry. Each cessationist is going to have a different timeline. Some are going to say it's the death of the apostles. Some are going to say it's the closing of the canon. When we have all the books of the Bible compiled, that's when the gift ceased. Others will say it ended around the year 400. Like, they can't really make up their mind on when it ended, but it definitely ended in their mind. It's not today. They don't have a Bible verse, but they don't have it today. They disagree about where it ended, but they all agree that it ended without the scripture telling them that. That's right. And that's our contention with it. The problem that we have with it is this, just like we would resist doctrines of praying to saints, or we would resist doctrines that I'm trying to think of, doctrines that emerge within purgatory, like, okay, later additions throughout Church history. Mariology. Mariology. Certain of these things that we're going to resist, cessationism is one of those. I put it in the same category as talking to saints that have died. I put it in the same category as the Mariology stuff. I just go, this isn't written in the scriptures. It's something that you've added to it. It's a tradition of men. It's a tradition of men. That's a good word. I appreciate you saying those very specific definitions because sometimes it's difficult to hit a target when you don't know exactly where that target is. Yeah. And speaking specifically on healing, I can say as someone who believes in miracles, praise for the sick. I'm in the healing ministry. I don't know a single what you would call a healing evangelist who would say that the sovereignty of God is not involved, even when it comes to laying hands on the sick. So to me, it seemed like they were arguing with a caricature of what we believe rather than what we actually believed. They pre-defined the terms. They defined the terms. Like when it comes to the gift of healing, they treat it like it's a Marvel comic hero superpower that they get to do this on demand. And so anybody who would claim to have a gift of healing, like you saying you're in healing ministry, they would go, oh. Go to the hospital. Well, then go to the hospital. Right. That's immediately the end of the children's hospital. And here's the other thing is that they try to use the scriptures to say it was healing on demand. Because they'll say, look, Jesus healed them all. And so then when we bring up other passages and we'll say, well, look at, maybe we'll look at Matthew 13, where Jesus didn't do many miracles there because of their unbelief. Or maybe we'll look at the ministry of Paul and how Paul says in 2 Timothy 4.20, I left trophomus sick in Meletus. Or 1 Timothy 5.23, Timothy, take a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent illnesses. So we cite these to them and say, look, healing wasn't on demand for the apostles. Paul had to give medical advice to Timothy. He had to leave trophomus sick. Like, well, they respond, well, healing was on demand, but healing was dying out at the end of Paul's life. And so the healing ministry was dying. And so, and then when you say, yeah, and then we come back and we say, but in Acts 28, at the end of Paul's life, he heals an entire island full of people. And so they just keep moving the goalposts. So they start with their own Marvel superhero kind of definition of healing. That's right. And when you prove it demonstrably wrong, really, they just don't even respond. And the anecdotes. And by and large they don't. They won't engage with anecdotes either because you'll be like, well, I have this guy who got healed. If you're talking to an honest person, if you're talking to a critic on YouTube, you probably won't get a lot of honesty. But if you're engaging with like an honest cessationist that goes to a cessationist church that believes that you're a brother. And they just go, man, I just think we disagree on this. And you go, but look, I've got this X-ray. I've got this testimony. This person, I'll lead you to them. They say they got healed. They go, oh, I believe in miracles. And you go, wait a second, what did you say? Miracles. And I was like, well, it's a miracle. Well, if God heals someone, that's a miracle. It's like, no, that's a healing. In the Bible, when someone gets healed, we call it a healing, right? But they want to redefine the term so that only those three gifts have ceased. And anytime they see something that looks like those things, they just call it a miracle and pretend like it's occasional and only happens three once in a while. Listening to you guys talk, someone might think that you have the biblical position because isn't the impression that the cessationist is the Bible scholar, the intellectual? That is the impression. Which is, in part, why we're trying to do the podcast. That's right. In many ways, we want to show, hey, look, there are all these other scholars that you're not interacting with. Jack Deere, Craig Keener, Sam Storms. They're all continuationists. They all have seen healings, miracles. Craig Keener has done quite the work in documenting these miracles. He's written two volumes, literally called miracles. It's easy to Google. Right. And I mean, these guys are scholars. Jack, Deere, in particular, the one who mentored Michael and I, he's a lexicographer. He knows 17 languages, most of them ancient Semitic. So you've got the guy. He told me 19. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a lot. Whatever. The point is, you've got the guy who knows Hebrew and then you've got the guy who says, no, that Hebrew word means this. And here's why I know this, because here's where this word originated. Here's its history. And so that's the kind of people that we're interacting with that actually believe these things are for today. That's right. And so you can no longer say that the charismatic is just caught up in emotionalism, which has been the major argument against continuationism. But historically, as the Pentecostal movement starting with the Susa Street, there was this sort of like, since the establishment rejected them and God chose to work through people who weren't the theological elitists, there did start to develop over the course of time this sort of anti-intellectualism, sort of like, well, we don't need all your fancy book learning because we've got the spirit. And so, you know, the thing is, it's true that, I mean, take the apostles, for instance. They recognized they didn't have the education, but they'd been with Jesus. Like, there's truth in the fact that really, we need the Holy Spirit. We don't have to have the letters after our names to be able to be faithful to God. That's right. And God can launch movements through the uneducated. So that's all true. But in the same breath that we say that, we can say theological education is valuable. Yeah, we can just say both. And so that's where... And we've gotten to this place where it's like, we want to love God with all of our heart, mind, soul, and strength. We don't want to just go, we want to love God with our feelings. We just... That's been one of our calls, is to say you don't have to check your brain at the door to be a charismatic, and then on the other side, you know, emotions aren't your enemy. We did that on our last video, where they're like, you worship music, ah, they feel, and it's like... What's wrong with feeling? Well, the Lord created both emotions and the intellect. That's right. And a mark of the Spirit filled this, they have a sharp mind. That's right. I often hear people in my camp say things like, well, the service was powerful. How did you know it was powerful? He didn't even preach. He threw out his notes in the Holy Spirit mode. And I think there is, to some degree, this idea that the Word of God is somehow a blockage to the move of the Spirit. I believe the Word of God is the foundation to the move of the Spirit. In fact, I've seen some of the more powerful moves of the Holy Spirit after the Word of God went forth. Amen. There's a false dichotomy that's built oftentimes when it comes to this whole Spirit and Word thing. You hear on one side someone say, well, you're supposed to be Spirit-led, not mind-led. Well, since when is the mind and the Spirit at opposition with one another? Why can't it be both? Why can't the Spirit operate with your mind? Or this idea that in order for it to be Spirit-led, it has to be spontaneous. Well, hold on. Why can't God work within the plans? Like, when I create the liturgy for my Sunday service and I pray and say, God, give me wisdom as I go through this, why can't he be involved in that process on the front end? I mean, certainly if he can predict the future, he can plan a liturgy. Yeah, that's right. I mean, Jesus says my words are Spirit and they are life. He says to the Samaritan at the well, those who worship me worship in Spirit and in truth. Like, there's not this divorce between Spirit and truth. Like, oh, you intellectual folks, you guys focus on the Word, and we'll get over here and get real charismatic. Like, there's actually a marriage between Word and Spirit. And so that's what we have our Monday shows, and we're always digging deep into some theological subject. But then when we're talking about the Holy Spirit, we're talking about the Holy Spirit with a theological emphasis and biblical emphasis. But at the same time, not just that, we want to actually be practitioners. We're, like in my Sunday services, we, I preach expositionally verse by verse to the Scripture, 40, 45 minutes a week. But we also have prophecy live from the stage every week. We're calling people out from the audience. What is the Lord speaking? And so we try to have both. Yeah, and we, the cessationists, you mentioned it earlier, the cessationists have really monopolized this idea that we are the intellectual superior. The problem is, is they are a dying breed. I think the reason we're seeing documentaries being released over and over on cessationism and on the abuses of the charismatic movement is because you have a movement that's dying called cessationism that's trying to hold on for every last breath. And it's going after the one thing it can attack, which is the character, frankly, of the charismatic movement. Which they're rightfully so. And there's many really... In some ways, like you said. Yeah, there are many character problems. There are many sinful patterns, which are certainly in cessationist spaces and continuationist spaces, where we believe the gifts have continued. There are certainly abuses that take place there, but the problem is, is they are able to attack character, but they can't stand alone on the grounds of scripture. And you look at some of the greatest scholars alive today. Guys like N.T. Wright, guys like D.A. Carson, guys like Wayne Grudem, guys like Sam Storms, Jack Deere, Craig Keener. I mean, these guys are former presidents of the Evangelical Theological Society. It's hard to find one that's a cessationist. Like you go and... N.T. Wright told us he speaks in tongues. Yeah, N.T. Wright, well, I stand where we're... Really? Oh, yeah. I didn't know that. He's full Bakkenaboh show in. I mean, he's all the way in. I mean... I'm sorry, sit. Right now? I can't do that without interpretation. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. But like... Miller's wife's got the gift of interpretation. She'll play with us. She'll tell you what he's... No, but seriously though, as you get into the... People... This is a concern that I have, is that people will hear this kind of story and they'll think, oh, so it's the academic elites versus the remnant guys. It's like, no. It's actually most theologians, most theological institutions, most of them believe that God can do these kinds of things. The problem is they write books and don't make YouTube videos, right? All we're doing is distilling those books into video content. That's it. While we make fun of each other. While we make fun of each other while we do it. Yeah, so it's not like we're inventing ideas. It's actually the mainstream scholars believe in these things. The minority group are cessationists and those are the ones that we discipline. So they might say, but just because we're the minority doesn't mean we're wrong. How would you respond to that? I would say that you're wrong on the grounds of Scripture. Like on Scripture alone. And I want to remind the average charismatic who's watching this video that we are not the minority. We actually have a rich, robust, solid theological tradition that we can rest our understanding of the gifts on. We don't have to just... Yeah. And it's historical. And it's historical. It didn't start at a Suze history. It's not like, man, you had a lot of gifts in the New Testament. Then there was 1900 years of pretty much nothing. And then a Suze, you know, like it wasn't like that. All throughout church history. Now for the first four centuries of church history, it was a fireworks show in the Roman Empire. It turned the world upside down. After that, Constantine declares Christianity and becomes official religion. It becomes kind of cool to be a Christian. I mean, things got complicated, but it wasn't just for power. I mean, it was for other things too. The practice of communion got all wonky. The various... That's where the various new doctrines began to be introduced to the church. I mean, it's been a journey, but all throughout church history, I mean, D.A. Carson says this, that the cessationist who says that throughout church history, like, you know, the miracle stopped at some point in time. He says you just can't claim that because at every point in church history, there was always... Every subsequent century, he says. We also want to give attention at the same time to present-day miracles. That's right, that's right. We were in Wisconsin a week and a half ago. How many deaf ears and flat feet did we see get healed? Yeah. And we bring these testimonies to the forefront as well. So other than the moving of the goalpost or the changing of definitions, are there any biblical grounds that they try to stand on, maybe any verses that they might refer to? And how would you respond to those? So Ephesians 2.20 is at the top of that list. Hebrews. Hebrews is at the top of that list. 1 Corinthians 13. 1 Corinthians 13. Less of them than that, yeah. That one, again, is a dying argument because they realize if I build my house on this argument, it's going to get pulled out from under me. Can you tell us what that argument is? So in 1 Corinthians 13, he talks about when the perfect comes. Tell me or read it. I have it open. Sure. Go ahead. And I brought my Bible, so... I've got mine right here. I was trying to quote it. Where is yours, Miller? I just memorized it. Sorry. Okay, so this is 1 Corinthians 13. We'll start in verse 8. It says, Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away. That's where the cessationist gets excited. Ah, prophecy is going to pass away at some point. As for tongues, they will cease. Ah, cessationism. Okay, they're getting real excited. As for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. So he's beginning to tell us, oh, well, when will the gifts cease when the perfect comes? Well, what's the perfect? This argument is dying like cessationism because it's such a bad argument. It backfires. Where what cessationist said for a long time was, well, the perfect that he's talking about is the Bible. Now that we have the perfect Bible, we don't need prophecy anymore. Now that we have the perfect Bible, we don't need tongues anymore. And so they just kind of stopped there. But let's find out what the perfect is. Because we know that whenever the perfect comes, that these gifts will cease. He says, when I was a child, I spoke like a child. I thought like a child is just continuing. I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly. But then face to face. Now I know in part. Then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. So when the perfect comes is parallel to the time when I know fully, even as I'm fully known, which is parallel to the time in which I am face to face with God Almighty. Does the completion of the Bible make me face to face with God? This is historic biblical language for what we would call the beatific vision, to see God's face. It's what we all long for more than anything else. And when Paul's saying is, hey, when I am staring into the face of God, what do I need prophecy for anymore? What do I need tongues? These were for building up the church in troubled times. And I prophesy in part, I know in part, but then I'm going to know fully. Like, I don't need these gifts anymore. I'm staring at perfect love. And so the reason this backfires is not only because on one hand, clearly face to face can't mean the completion of the Bible. It must mean the beatific. Because Paul's audience would have never thought that. Right, right. But then to take it further, it's a positive argument for continuationism. So continuationism is the opposite of cessationism. Continuationism says, all the gifts that were operative in the Bible are operative still today. And so what this says is that all the gifts of the Holy Spirit, prophecy, tongues, all of them will continue until I am staring into the face of God. Amen. They will continue until the very end. And that agrees with what Paul says earlier in the book in 1 Corinthians 1-7. When he says, I praise you, I commend you, because you excel in all the gifts of the Holy Spirit as you await the revelation of Jesus Christ, that is, until you see His face. And so his expectation is that all the gifts of the Spirit will continue until we see the face of God. So the cessationist used to use 1 Corinthians 13 as an argument. Some of them still do, but less of them. And the reason they don't as much is because it's a positive argument in the opposite direction. That's right. But there are Ephesians 2 and Hebrews 2. We can also look at that. So you have Ephesians there. I've got Ephesians 2-20. Yeah. So in Ephesians chapter 2, verse 28 talks about this group of individuals and this revelation that they have that gives this foundation. So Ephesians 2, maybe 19, so then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and the members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into the holy temple of our Lord. So here in this verse, the apostle Paul is saying that there is this infallible foundation that is being laid by the apostles and the prophets. And he goes, this revelation that was given to them. Now, Michael mentions frequently that this verse in context, the revelation, is about Gentile inclusion. So it wasn't a group of all prophets. It wasn't a group of all apostles. We're talking about the apostles and prophets that realized that the Gentiles are being brought into the faith. And it's that foundation. What foundation? The foundation that God has reconciled to himself all peoples that has laid the foundations of the church, that the church is built upon. What the cessationist is going to do with this verse is they're gonna say, well, there's a group of apostles and prophets. And now that the foundation of the church has been laid, we no longer need apostles and prophets and the gifts that were associated with those apostles and prophets. However, the problem is, is they're saying that this verse, again, has to do with the Bible. Once the apostles and prophets have laid the foundation, they've given us the Holy Scriptures, we no longer need apostles and prophets any longer. But this verse has nothing to do with the Bible. This verse has to do with the revelation of Gentiles being included into the covenant family of God. So again, we'll find that a lot of the cessationist arguments are verses that have nothing to do with the Bible. But what they want it to do is they want to say that when the Bible came, we no longer need prophecy. The problem is, is that cessationism really undermines a doctrine of sufficiency, that the Bible is sufficient to tell us all that we need to do and say for our life and practice. So cessationism says, you don't need to prophesy. And I say, but the Bible tells me to earnestly desire spiritual gifts and especially prophesy in 1 Corinthians 14-1. And they would say, yeah, but those gifts have ceased. And then I say, you don't have a single verse in the Bible that says that. So what happens is the doctrine of cessationism actually undermines the completeness of the Bible because the Bible is telling me to do something and they're saying, well, we have this tradition that infers it. We actually have a clip of the founder of this documentary called Cessationist saying, there's not a single Bible verse that says the gifts of the Spirit have ceased. It's a natural consequence of our tradition that has been passed down to us. And we're like, yes, yes it is. It's the tradition of men. That nullifies the word of God. You are correct. So anyway, and I'm going to jump in on the Ephesians. The other thing is, so if you follow from Ephesians 2.20, where he talks about the foundation of the apostles and prophets. And so he talked about the context and Gentile inclusion, all of that. But if the cessationists were right, we would expect that if anytime apostles and prophets were talked about, that maybe they were talked about in some limited short-term manner, because this is only in the beginning, but as we keep reading into Ephesians, in Ephesians chapter four, it's the famous five-fold ministry. God gave some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors, some teachers for the building up of the body of Christ until they, and that's the key. It actually gives a time word. How long are these apostles and prophets and evangelists and pastors and teachers going to stick around until we all reach the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God and become a mature man. He's talking about, until the body of Christ is totally mature. Just like you had a mature Jesus walking around ancient Palestine and healing the sick and doing all these amazing things. When there's coming a day before the end of the age, when the body of Christ will, it will be a mature body of Christ. Jesus' prayer in John 17 will be answered, will be won, but nobody can argue that that's actually happened. And the point is that we actually need apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers to help prepare the church for this great end times, unity, and maturity so that we can fully express Christ on the earth. So their argument, once again, backfires because if you follow the train of thought of how apostles and prophets are used elsewhere in Ephesians, it very clearly uses the time word until. That's right. And it's until the very end. The same thing. When you look at the 1 Corinthians 13 passage, so he's using the word perfect they're inserting their belief into that passage rather than drawing forth from it what it's clearly stating. Why would the gift of healing cease? Because we don't need anymore. We have resurrection bodies that are incorruptible, as Paul says. That's right. 1 Corinthians 15. So the other thing about it, I think what most cessations are trying to do, and for this I can compliment them on. And this is also something we try to do on the show just in general is we want to give them credit where it's due. What they're trying to do is protect the faith. We're just not going to throw away very explicit and clear verses of Scripture to do so, which in many ways they're doing. They are undermining verses like 1 Corinthians 14 1 that tells us desire earnestly spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. Their fear is that if you have somebody who is prophesying, then somehow you need, you have new Scripture, new Canaan that's being created. And we would say to them, the Scriptures themselves don't treat prophecy that way. When you look at 1 Corinthians 14, you've got two different standards. One for prophecy and the other for the writings of Paul, which were considered Scripture. So 1 Corinthians 14 will say, let two or three prophets speak and let the others pass judgment. So there's some sort of weighing what's being said prophetically. Versus just a little bit later, he says, but to him who thinks he's a prophet, recognize that what I'm writing are the very words of God. So you've got in the same passage, the Scriptures being compared with prophecy. One is to be weighed in considered, the other is to be accepted. We don't get to judge the Scriptures. We get to accept them and hopefully rightly interpret them, but we don't get to judge them. Yeah. And yeah. So the Hebrews 2 passage, do you want to dive into that? If you don't mind? No, we can back up too if you need us to. In Hebrews 2, this is what like 3 through 4, Michael, how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation if it was declared at first by the Lord and was attested to us by those who heard while God also bore witness, and they'll make a big emphasis of bore as in use to bear witness, bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will. So they'll say, look, the author of Hebrews is writing that back in the day, there was a group of apostles and those that they had their relationships with that were performing signs, wonders, and miracles. And it said that they bore witness, past tense in the days of Hebrews, the book of Hebrews is being written, the gifts of the Spirit had already stopped. They said it used to bear witness, not that they still bear witness. The problem is that Greek word is in the present tense and not in the past tense. So it could literally read is bearing witness today with signs, wonders, and miracles. Also, the problem with this verse is it says nothing about apostles. It says, how shall we escape this if we neglect such a great salvation if it was declared to us first by the Lord and was tested to us by those who heard? So the 72 that were sent out could have been attesting to it. Those who were on the mountain were getting fed. The 5000 could have been. And literally anyone who heard the message of Jesus could have been going around communicating this. There's an assumption that these are only apostles because they believe that only the apostles worked in these kinds of supernatural signs wonders and miracles. But again, these are arguments from silence. If you mentioned earlier, they are afraid. We don't want another false prophet to arise to add something to the scriptures and nullify the doctrines of justification by grace through faith alone. Like we don't want someone to say it's grace plus works. We don't need that and we're afraid that prophets will do it. Well, wouldn't that have been the right thing to tell the Church of Corinth? The Church of Corinth that believed that some of them had better spiritual gifts than others. Sexual immorality is taking place rampantly. Some are saying I follow Paul. Some are saying I follow Paul. Some are letting the hungry go out and starve and others are getting drunk out of communion. Like this is a disorderly wild charismatic church. The gift of tongues isn't being practiced appropriately. There's a superiority complex that many of them are carrying. And in 2 Corinthians, he keeps rebuking this group of people who think they're super apostles. Like shouldn't Paul have come in and said, guys, y'all need to stop doing prophecy. This is getting crazy. You guys should stop this whole apostolic ministry stuff. No, the exact opposite. He says earnestly desire spiritual gifts and do it in a way that's in accordance with my writings. The problem is the cessationist group is going further than the Bible will go. They see charismatic disorder. They say, therefore, it's false and it must stop. Paul sees charismatic disorder. He says, let me show you a more excellent way that's funneled through the fruit of love. So I would just contend to my cessationist brothers who I believe are brothers, who I believe are saved, who I believe love Jesus and are deemed righteous by faith alone. I tell those guys, hey, you are more extreme than Paul. Paul didn't have your view. He believed these gifts were necessary to build up the body of Christ. And I love that you call them our brothers and sisters, because indeed they are. And I think that especially as we talk about things that are very important to us as individuals, the discussions can lead us to become maybe defensive, or hysterical, emotional. This is what I appreciate so much about you gentlemen is that you're very grounded and then you're able to have these discussions without getting in the flesh. So let's put it bluntly. Gentlemen, I so appreciate you taking the time joining me here. Of course, we could go on. The word is so rich in each one of you. And it's been a joy to sit here and chat with you and listen to you share. And how can we get ahold of Remnant Radio? Remnant Radio is on all major podcasting platforms. YouTube is our primary channel. It's just the Remnant Radio. Spotify, iTunes, Google Play, YouTube, best place to go. We have a website, vremnantradio.com. You can find all of our conferences and courses located there. What kind of content can they find on your YouTube channel? Yeah, so we're going to cover theology, history, and the gifts of the spirit. So if you're interested in learning about history, whether it be history of the gifts or just history of where these different thoughts and theologies came from, you can find that on our channel. Theology, we're interviewing Presbyterians, Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptist, all these different guys. And then Gifts of the Spirit every Wednesday we get together and we discuss the specifics of the Gifts of the Spirit. Sometimes it's cessation aside, sometimes it's hypercharismatic side, sometimes it's just telling you how to do this stuff. So we have a lot of content in those subjects. Well, once again, I appreciate you guys taking the time to join me here. Thank you for sharing such a rich word with our viewers. And I pray the Lord blesses you and continues to expand your ministry. And thank you for joining us. And until next time, remember, nothing is impossible with God.