 This is Senate government operations. It is Tuesday, March 23rd. And excuse me for my, I'm not sure what's going on here, but anyway, so we're going to today, we're going to look at a couple of different things. Under the proposal to create the Agency of Public Safety from a department, the reorganization, is one of the issues is putting the academy under, in the department. And so we've had, we would like to have some discussion on how to maintain the independence of the council. So we've asked a couple of different people to come and talk to us about that, Bill Surrell, Bill Sheetz, Pete Lynch as the, hi Pete is the head of the fire academy. And Michael DeRosius is somewhat responsible for the fire academy. I'm not exactly sure your role. And Chris Corbin, I'm not sure your role. Do you want to just tell me what your role is? Yes, I'm the chairman of the Vermont Fire Service Training Council. Great, okay, great, great. Because I know that that has had independence for some time and we want to hear how that works and how it might work with the council also, the criminal justice council. So with that, what I'd like to do is, I think first hear a little update from Mr. Surrell about where the council is right now, just a brief overview and then we'll get to the independence portion of it. Does that work? Well, you are muted though. And I know people have been trying to do that to you for years, but. Success. And I think tomorrow we are presenting on issues of the work of the different, some of the S-124 directives to the council to carry out. Right, tomorrow we're gonna hear the report on the use of military equipment, body cams and the issue of what kinds of things are we looking for when we're hiring law enforcement people and then what additional kinds of things are we looking for when we're looking for supervisory roles? So we'll hear those reports tomorrow, but this is just kind of an update and mainly to talk about the independence. Okay, well, let me deal with the independence first. I think I, in prior testimony, expressed some of my personal opinions on the fact that under S-124, the council is essentially in charge of the training of law enforcement officers and consequently with the expansion of the old training council to the now the 24 person criminal justice council in the addition of so many different voices that have not traditionally been involved on issues of police training. I expressed my view that my personal view that the council should be independent of an agency or some other wing and state government and that in a related way that the executive director of the council implementing the council's directives on training of law enforcement that the council should have the authority to appoint the executive director. So very briefly, the council has been very busy and I'm pleased to report that we will hear from Bill Sheetz today and again, tomorrow I won't be able to be here tomorrow because I have a conflict with my second COVID vaccination. It's time tomorrow afternoon. That's exciting. But we have just recently successfully completed the hunt for a permanent executive director and I think it's April 12th will be the official day for Heather Simons who's in the hierarchy of the department of corrections and was the clear choice of the council and outside folks whom Commissioner Sherling brought into the process to give feedback on who should be the new executive director, governor's approval and the council has hired Heather Simons and we're gonna miss Bill Sheetz. She is doing and has done great public service serving us in an interim capacity but we're looking forward to come April, Heather being on board. So at the February monthly meeting of the council under S-124, the council was to consult with others and take a position, a council position on whether it should be independent of an agency of public safety or some other entity in state government. And so we put that to the council at our February meeting and in the invitation to testify today, there was a question as to whether some other council members other than just hearing from me could be arranged. And I thought the most expeditious way to do that was to just very briefly read from the area, the section of the approved minutes of that February meeting on this issue of the independence of the council and the hiring of the executive director and Chief Brackell who's the representative of the chief's association Chris Brackell from Brandon. Once the question was put to the council for discussion he said that the council should be autonomous. Sheriff Mark Anderson representing the sheriffs said that the council should be memorialized in statute and retain authority. Trevor Whipple who represents under S-124 the Vermont League of Cities and Towns and happens to have been the former police chief of South Burlington. He when he remark said that the philosophy of the League of Cities and Towns and his own personal opinion is that the council should be working on training models up to and including the hiring of the executive director who will implement those policies as designed. Council member Karen Tronsgard Scott from she's the executive director of the network against domestic and sexual violence. She said that she believes that independence of the council is necessary. Just a couple more. Council member Kareem Chapman who is a gubernatorial appointee or representative of individuals who have expressed mental health challenges in their life and Kareem Chapman is with the psychiatric survivors organization out of Rutland. Very active member of the council contributing member and he said, quote, it is really refreshing to hear the overwhelming support in diversity and voices. The bigger picture is the community needs to know that it's not just law enforcement but others have a voice in the picture. Brian Searles, another gubernatorial appointee, interestingly another former South Burlington police chief among other jobs in state government and out of state government. He said the person in the executive director chair is representative of all law enforcement in the state. It's important when speaking to the legislature to be viewed as independent and not controlled by any one department or agency. And finally Chief Brackell said that the council being autonomous and appointing the executive director is a healthier choice and model. And it's noted in our minutes which we have filed with the committee for this morning so that you have them in your records of this hearing. No member of the council voiced sentiments in favor of a reduced independence of the council. So I've quoted from those who spoke to the issue but no one when given an opportunity to speak otherwise from law enforcement or from outside law enforcement thought that the council should be other than independent and no one thought that the council shouldn't retain the authority to appoint the executive director and the other chief positions at the council or excuse me at the academy. And interestingly I mentioned that Heather Simons will be the new executive, permanent executive director come April but the council since it got up and running at the end of December has filled the director position for administrative services, all sort of the logistical stuff at the council, a woman named Lindsay Tevierge. And so I said at the council meeting last week, our March meeting, I am quite confident that there is no police academy in this country that has its three top position all female and not just female. We are fortunate and I think we've got three very, very competent officials. The hierarchy of the police academy is in good hands and I'm delighted that the council has accomplished the things that it's accomplished so far and you'll hear more about what the council's doing, the real work of the council is in the subcommittees and the so-called working groups, many of which we've created just in the last two and a half months and you'll hear more on that tomorrow. So I hope, Madam Chair, that I've articulated the feelings of the council on the independence issue as it relates to an agency of public safety or any other potential entity in state government that the council might be legislatively put under answer to. So the, I think that committee do, does anybody have any questions first right now? Okay, so the, as I see it here, the conundrum is that the academy is slated to be put under the, under DPS or APS where whatever you want to call it but that the council will remain independent and that's where we need to make sure that we, did you wanna say something, Bill? Yeah, yes, Senator, I think in earlier testimony both Bill Sheetz and I talked about putting the academy, not the curriculum and the training but sort of the nuts and bolts of the academy under either an agency of public safety or some other like entity under state government for budgeting purposes, contracting purposes, applying for and managing grants. I think that has merit. I, it's a bit of a fine line because the council is gonna be the boss of all of the training but we've got such a small staff that those kinds of IT issues and the like being in an agency structure that has its own IT division or unit or whatever, those kinds of things are of value and just another important thing on the issue of the council and it really has been playing out in this legislative session is that even though Commissioner Sherling has stated publicly that he's of the view that the finance and the funding of the academy was severely underfunded and I don't wanna, my recollection is he said upwards of a million and a half dollars underfunded but don't call me to that. I'm pretty sure that's what he said but it's very significant underfunding and unfortunately in the governor's recommend we had a minor, we were in for a minor increase that was more cost of living issues and we that is the council have appeared before the house gov ops, house appropriations multiple times and we have not yet testified before Senate appropriations but we're very pleased and relieved that as Executive Director Sheetz will talk about more either today or tomorrow that there's a recommendation for two very critical new positions for the operations of the council particularly the area of professional regulation of law enforcement allegedly guilty or having committed unprofessional acts and it's for an investigative position an independent investigator and legal council and so we haven't had the opportunity to appear before Senator Kitchell's committee but we look forward to that and we have not been afraid to be respectfully critical of the administration's recommendation of the budgeting for the functioning of the academy and I think going forward whatever you do on whether you put the academy under the agency of public safety or some other entity the fact that the council should be allowed to be an independent voice for the financial needs of the operation of the training of police would be very important and we hope that if your committee is in agreement that whether it's in a formal way or in cafeteria talk that if you think these positions and maybe some one-time money for some staffing needs that Bill Sheetz is prepared to talk about are important to really be able to start to really do the kinds of things you have instructed the council to do under S-124 we hope that you will speak supportively to Senator Kitchell's committee giving due regard to the council's needs and we'd appreciate your help in that respect. Thank you, I think that this is a big priority for us so we probably will speak favorably. We'd much appreciate it Senator. So Senator Clarkson. Yes, your Senate Government Operations Committee are strong advocates for this bill. We lost that whole thing. Our chair had. Excuse me, Senator Collomer. Yeah, we lost your whole statement there Madam Chair you kind of froze up for about a minute. Oh, thank you. All I said was that we're strong proponents of the academy and of the council and we'll probably speak favorably to the Appropriations Committee. Sorry about that. Senator Collomer I just saw you freeze after you. So it might be you. I guess we're all freezing. I know on this warm sunny spring day. So Senator Clarkson what were you saying? I was just wanted to finish by saying that not only are we strong advocates of this bill and of the changes with the council and I have to say our chair has an incredible record in approves. So I think that you do want the Senate Government Operations Committee to be your advocates for these, for anything you wanna ask or in approves. Well, it's a little bit weirder to do it this way but at least when you go into the Appropriations Committee now you're not sitting in these little chairs like a supplement, right? Supplement. So what I'd like to do is right now take advantage of the three people from the fire academy who are here who have joined us and talk a little bit about the fire academy is under DPS right now as I understand but that the council has autonomy and is independent. Am I right about that? And I guess how do you wanna approach this? The three of you, how do you? So yes, Mike. Yeah, Madam Chair, thank you for extending the invitation to be here today and thank you to the committee. I think what I will do is give kind of a, just a little bit of a landscape here that may help frame some conversation. The fire service training council is housed in fires in the Department of Public Safety now under 20 VSA Chapter 179. So it is not by virtue an independent council such as the Vermont Criminal Justice Council. Framework-wise, there is a lot of distinct difference between the powers and duties of the fire service training council and that of the Vermont Criminal Justice Council. So there are two distinct councils with responsibilities but the fire service training council is housed in fire safety. The fire academy is housed in the Department of Public Safety under the Division of Fire Safety. So that's kind of the landscape. There really is no, that they're housed there now and to speak to a little bit of what Bill Sorrell was alluding to that there are some advantages that we see on the fire service side of it being housed in public safety and to speak to IT support budgeting the Division of Fire Safety pays for promulgating the rules and going through the rulemaking process. And we're also 100% embedded with the fire service. And Pete and Chris Corbin, they can speak to the details of the council's responsibilities as they go, but I will just add that this council has been extremely effective. The relationship that the Division of Fire Safety and Public Safety has with the fire service training council is probably the best that it's been in years. So we are speaking from my position very happy with where the fire service training council sits, we're very pleased with the work of the council. The council is responsible for the training aspects. We don't discipline firefighters. So there is a lot of difference between the councils that I just wanted to emphasize to you. The fire training council is made up of 12 members, basically all the fire service groups are represented. We have the commissioner of labor, commissioner of health, commissioner of public safety, myself. And anyways, under 20 BSA, we have a 12 member group. So that's kind of a quick rundown and also to touch base a little bit, I also chair the governance committee down there at the facility. So we have a legislative governance committee that oversees some areas access and use contracts, capital construction bills. So there's a great relationship that exists down there right now between all the users of that training facility. So I just want to emphasize that. So in testimony at future times, if you are engaged in conversations regarding the governance committee that you know, that we have a single voice coming out of that training facility regarding those specific areas of responsibility. We do not engage in training. So the councils that stay independent there on the training of their respective professions where this governance committee is there on those specific areas of access, use contracts and capital construction. So that's kind of the landscape with the councils in fire safety now. Thank you. Thanks. Any questions for Mike? Pete, do you want to, and I, in full disclosure, I'll say that Pete was on the Brattleboro fire department. And I have seen him. I'm sure you're happy now, not having to deal with bed bugs every other day. It's kind of sad that that's my reputation, right? Well, you have a better reputation than that. Everybody in Brattleboro loved you. Thank you, Madam chair. And it's great to be with you. So I think I'd like to talk about day to day operations within the fire academy and allow the chair of the fire training council, Chris Corbin to talk about the council on its and the specificity it has. So I suspect that most of you have are pretty comfortable with the fire academy and what we do. But I'd just like to take a quick minute to talk about how we fit into the department of public safety and the division of fire safety. So thank you to director DeRosha. The division of fire safety is, and I think it's important to note that the department of public safety and the department of public safety are the folks that are in charge of the fire academy. I specifically answered directly to director DeRosha as chief of training for the fire academy. And the council doesn't have much to do with our day to day operations. The chair will talk about that and certification and professional qualification board fire service. And we have a lot of other operations. We employ seven full time. People who manage training, development and. And place classes around the state. As you may be aware, the fire service in Vermont, which is about 5,500 people. Is 90 more than 95% volunteer. And it's a little different from the folks at the police academy is the bulk of our programs are outreach. And, and not on campus. And so. It is important that we are out in the field in the 230 communities that have fire departments to assist them with training. And because they are mostly volunteer. And so, our training happens a lot of the time on nights and weekends. Some of our classes are as long as 200 hours long. They start the 1st of September. And they complete with a certification exam in June. And so it requires us to have about 100. Part time or temporary employees in order to manage that training. And so, our employees are certified to be instructors for the academy. Some at some at levels for. Entry level firefighters. Some to instruct officer level training. And others in special rescue. And that could be, that could be hazmat as well. We employ a great number of people temporarily. We manage a budget with a special fund of about $1.2 million. And a general fund budget. Our special fund budget is insurance money. And the general fund budget is a little bit over 400,000. And so we take great advantage. Of the budget. Of the department of public safety. Both with human resources and with the accounting department. To help manage our employees and manage our budget. And that's a, that's a huge advantage for us to have. To have a network that we can reach out to. To aid us in, in managing these, these great groups. I said earlier, some of our classes are as long as 200 hours. We offer 13 programs, which are certification level on a national standard. And those programs are very long in length. And therefore both beginner and then officer level folks. And then we offer about an additional 50 courses, which are shorter, typically under 40 hours. And most of those we can do out in the field. Although for specifics, like our live fire training. We have to bring people to the academy in Pittsburgh. On the campus that we share with, with. With those sheets and his group. That's kind of an overview of the fire academy and our day to day operations. Before the chair speaks, I will tell you that over the last five years, we've put together about 70 standard operating guidelines to help. Maneuver our way through. Through our working relationships with the fire service. And about half of those are approved by the council, the training council. As, as the chair speaks, keep in mind that while we, we have a lot of input from the division of fire safety. There is a process that we go to that involves the council and those 12 members of the council all represent parties that have great interest in how the fire service in Vermont is educated. So thank you again, Madam chair, and I'm happy to answer questions. Thanks. Before I ask if anybody has questions, I will say that when you were talking about the live training really needs to be at the academy. And I've been working at a place in Brattleboro where we actually destroyed tour down. I think it's 11 or 15 buildings now. And it's really hard to get that kind of training because there isn't an opportunity a lot of times, but they were, it was great to see them out there poking through the roofs of the building. They didn't do fires, but they did a lot of that. And it's really, it's hard to get that kind of training because there isn't an opportunity a lot of times, but it's hard to get them out there poking through the roofs of the buildings. For years and years, we learned through experience. And through the great work of fire safety in Vermont, our fires have reduced tremendously. And so those men and women coming through the door now don't have the opportunity to gain the experience quickly by going to fire. And that's what makes the training so critical, critical to the safety of the people that we represent throughout the state, critical to the, the safety of the firefighters that are doing their jobs. And also from a monetary perspective, the more knowledgeable and capable we are, the more we minimize the fire loss in the state. And that's huge in terms of recovery for businesses and home owners. Yeah. Thanks. Any questions for Pete? And then we'll jump to Chris. Okay. Chris, thank you. Good afternoon. Thank you all for the invitation. As, as the director said, the council is made up of 12 individuals, six of which are appointed by the governor. Just for clarification, I am the chair. I represent the professional firefighters of Vermont. And I'm a career fire captain in the city of South Burlington. And I guess I'll just cover both of what the director and the, and the chief of training said a little bit more detail. Our purview of the council is certification of firefighters and fire officers and fire instructors. However, we do not actually do the certification. The fire Academy. Conducts the testing. And then handles all the certification process. We simply. Ensure two things. One that the certification meets the national fire protection association standards. And that the testing certification meet pro board requirements. And the pro board is a nationally recognized organization. In which the state of Vermont has chosen to certify their firefighters at all levels through per board. So if the fire Academy go back to the, what the chief said, day to day operations, if the fire Academy is choosing how they're going to test students, how they're going to evaluate students. If they're going to change curriculum. That is based on a program that is a certification program. That all gets run through the council. Anyone who challenges a certification. If they don't, if they don't, if they don't, if they don't, if their certification expired or they're trying to challenge the process from an outside agency. And they don't. For lack of our term, they want to grieve the situation that they feel to meet. They meet the requirements and the chief of training says they don't. Then those cases would come before the council for us to deal with. And determine per the rules. And policies of the council, whether they should be certified, or not. We do, we have a zero. We have zero. Formal. Contact with the day to day operations. However, chief Lynch has been excellent through his designing of the SOGs and moving the organization forward. As he said about half those SOGs that they operate under are approved by us. They're not approved by the chief of the council because they affect certification and coursework. The other half, I'd say of that. Half of those are. Still brought to our attention and asked to be endorsed. Where they may not actually fall under our purview, but they impact the, all the constituents that the council represents. So he asked, he brings those forward for our endorsement and our support. And then we have another quarter of those that just completely do not involve us whatsoever. And then he provides those to us for information only. We have no financial backing. We have no financial pot of money. So as the director said, last year in February, we finally put forth. And had new rules and policies updated. And so that's been the, that's been the, that's been the cost of that. And frankly, the, the man hours of. Putting the process through the different aspects of state government, the division of fire supported us on. And helped me move that process along. So. We certainly, as far as that's concerned, we would be in our current state lost if we didn't have the division with us. So I'm just going to go back to the question. Just looking at my notes here, just. I think another thing just to, and I kind of hit, hit on this, but to recognize is the little bit, I do know about the criminal justice training council. They have a much larger scope. Of work. They have a much larger workload. Then we do as the fire service training council. And I think a lot of that has to do with. The fire Academy is. You know, with thelength of. The crew. And the division of fire that normally, you know the criminal justice training council on the police side of things would handle. We, uh, per statute we're supposed to meet twice a year. We usually meet three to four times a year. Uh, and just to give you a quick overview. The professional fire, whereas Vermont have a seat, the table, the Vermont career chiefs. The VSFA, which is the association that represents the Vermont or the volunteer fire service, a member of the public. And whom I'm missing. Oh, and the insurance representative from the insurance companies. They hold the seat of the table. And as the chief had mentioned earlier, that's pretty, that's a pretty big deal because we get a lot of our budget from the insurance companies for the training for the academy. And so they have a seat at the table as well with the with the training council. I'm happy to answer any questions. Like I said, I think that we are definitely a much simpler organization. We certainly do as the director said we do fall under public safety and the statutes, but we definitely work hand in hand with the division and with the fire academy. And I don't see, no matter where we're put in the system, the way we would operate and unless statute changed as to what our governance was, we would still fill the same gap, provide the same mission and work with the same partners either way. Thank you. I think that I don't think that we have any intention of changing any statutes around the fire academy or the council but who just wanted to get a sense of how they, how it compared with the, the criminal justice council and the academy center Thank you madam chair and thank you to all of you for showing up today and giving us your testimony for sure. Chris you mentioned something about grieving certification and I'm just, it just struck me as, huh, okay. So, somebody gets into the fire academy to get trained. At some point, are they on a path for a professional job and that's why they need certification. Can you just explain what, what the certification process looks like and how somebody can grieve it if they've gone through the academy got trained. I'm not clear on that. So, if we take two paths, whether we look at the volunteer service of the career fire service. So in state statute, a full time firefighter divine defined as working more than 32 hours a week or more than 25 weeks a year has to maintain a minimum certification standard. The volunteer fire service, it's departmental, it's a department organization's decision as to what certifications they are are not going to make their members achieve and maintain. So, the academy certifies and recertifies the that that firefighter career or volunteer through a process. I can give you two examples of situations we normally deal with one on the career side would be someone either coming in from another state. The academy has pretty strict and obvious and strict and obvious path as to how you're going to come from outside of Vermont and maintain or establish a certification here on a side note I interestingly enough. Vermont is probably one of the most strict states in the entire country for achieving and maintaining firefighters certifications. A lot of times what happens is we see people from other areas of the country come here want to maintain their certification and they don't meet the requirements laid out. So they would put in their paperwork for reciprocity, it would be denied by the academy, they would put they would put a formal letter into the chief of training saying, Hey, I want to grieve this here all the reasons. Specifically because it's certification the chief of training just automatically passes that onto the council. And there it happens very infrequently the few times it has happened on that aspect. It's usually pretty cut and dry as to whether it falls within the rules that we've approved or not, and it, it ends at that level. Basically it's someone's end course or end stop in the process to try to gain a certification that they're they're saying for their own personal reasons, they deserve even though it doesn't meet the state rules from the volunteer side. It's the struggles of volunteers holding careers second jobs third jobs families, all that, and occasionally will deal with a volunteer member who has just, you know, because of the course of life, the, or whatever the case may be, hasn't been able to maintain their certifications. And they'll, they'll come to the academy again and say, Hey, you know this happened in my life and I was unable to maintain my certification. I want an extension. Again, the, the academy follows their course of action and the rules that we've laid out and says no I'm sorry, you don't meet the requirements you can grieve it to the council if you so choose. And then I would say the majority of the time that's where it ends. But we have seen on rare occasion that that volunteer member will come before the council and say here's my heart, here's my heartache. Here's what happened in my life and why I wasn't able to recertify in time. And here's my proposal as to why I think and how I should get an extension. Great explanation. Thank you very much Chris. Any other questions. Right now. Senator Polina. Thanks, I'm just trying to get a handle on the relationship you say you're under DPS DPS right. And I'm just wondering like, could you give me an example or two of like times when you might say, Well, we have to make this kind of decision but we have to go to DPS to see if it's okay. I don't want to come up because we're talking about a level of independence and that's a question for any of you I just wonder if there's an example of something where you would have to go to DPS to get permission for lack of a better way of putting it to do something or not. I'll say I'll start out from the council level. No, the one thing that I will say, I'll just go back to the example used earlier where when we had to. We had to produce new rules and policies of the council and put that through the I car process and the legislative process. Obviously there's a financial aspect to that there's also just a labor intensive procedure process to that. The division of fire, you know, director de Roja provided the funding out of his budget to go through the process and also provided at the time, the deputy director as I'll call my, my wing person. He did a lot of the legwork a lot of the groundwork a lot of the day to day policies and procedures that he knew because he worked in state government day in and day out and did it with multiple other rules and policies throughout state government. So that's, that's really the only aspect I would speak to from the council level that we, we need DPS for you know the division of fire. I'll say that there's a very good working relationship where I think the fire service, not just the council but you know the council is representative of the entire fire service in the state and the council, or the fire service through the council benefits greatly from that connection with the division of fire, aka DPS. I saw that before we go to Senator Clarkson I saw that Pete you had your hand up also I think to respond to that question. Thank you, Senator was your was your question specific to the council or was it the fire Academy in general. In general, well the council and most importantly, but in general. So from a fire Academy standpoint. In terms of answering to director de Roja and the division of fire safety on budgetary issues. We answered to him on personnel issues. We answered to him, anything contractual. We answered directly to the division of fire safety within the Department of Public Safety. He's a tough boss right. He's tremendously supportive of us and the council and well nobody has said it to this point. He does attend all the training council meetings and he is. He is through statute, one of the 12 members of that council so he is. He remains fully aware of what's going on throughout our, our section of the fun of the division. Thanks. Thanks, Senator Clarkson did you have a question. Well, and I just would add, and at this time of year he's fully aware of where everything we're doing to. Like it are intimately involved on another bill. I would like to just ask two questions. First of all, I just like to note that I think the fire. Thank you very much. I think the staff at army and council. Oh, really are a unique in many ways and state government because they are one of the few places we see. Volunteers and professionals, working side by side, doing the same job in a way doing the same job and, and it's very unusual blending of those two and training them to same standards. And some are professional and some are not. Really, as we oversee these things, you're really unique in that regard. I suppose EMT has some of that, but you even more than others. Anyway, my questions are twofold, would you be kind of, I have a son who's a volunteer firefighter here in Woodstock, and I'm just curious what the balance is between volunteers and professionals, how many of each? And then my second question is, what do we do about bad apples in the fire service? Are departments responsible for getting rid of them? Or is there, I mean, just to go to build on Brian's point about grievance, is there a disciplinary function that is a state version of a disciplinary function or is it just department to department? Yes, Pete. Thank you, Senator. So your question about volunteerism, there are 5,500 firefighters throughout the state of Vermont, and over 95% of those are volunteer. Now, in some cases, those men and women are paid in different ways. Some are paid by the calls they get on, that they respond to, some are paid a small stipend yearly, but by and large, the group is volunteer. We're starting to see in the fire service more and more chief positions on fire departments being made career instead of volunteer because of the enormous amount of time that it takes to lead a department. So that those numbers are increasing, but the career service is not, I don't think it's growing exponentially. I don't think over the next five years, we're gonna see 50% change or anything like that. And in terms of who is responsible for disciplining the firefighters around the state, that's specifically to a department or to a municipality. We do now have the right to deny somebody certification based on their criminal record or some sort of wrongdoing. At any time during a training process, if we feel as though a student is not, does not meet the requirements of the state of Vermont in terms of their legal being, if they've broken the law, or if in the class they do something that is inappropriate and most of the time, because the people that are signing up for our programs that are 200 hours long are very dedicated, we do not run into situations where people are not fully vested in the system and are doing something that's inappropriate. But in those occasions, we have the right to remove them from class. And oftentimes we will have the conversation with their fire chief prior to removing them from the class. And those relationships typically are very good in the way that the chief understands our perspective and generally supports it. But those are very, very few as a result of, if somebody's gonna take the time from their family and their part-time job or their full-time job to spend 200 hours becoming a firefighter one or a firefighter two or an officer, their commitment is typically good with great intent of doing good for their community. And we don't, as a rule, don't run into many of those situations anymore. Thank you. Thanks, any more questions? So this was very helpful to us. We were hoping that you would have some magic statutory language that would assure the independence of the Criminal Justice Council. But given that you didn't come in with magic language, we still are very happy that you gave us this lesson on the Academy and the Council in the fire safety division. Any other questions or comments, committee? Senator Polina? I just really gotta say how much I appreciate firefighters in general. I mean, buildings on fire, everybody's running out and the firefighters are running in. I mean, it's just amazing to me that people are willing to do that quite honestly. I really, really appreciate it. You know, it is interesting that we're responsible to train those individuals that wanna run to this versus running away. So it, you know, it challenges us from a training perspective to, you know, just the audience that we're training. And to touch just one brief second on the volunteer and career partnership, we also have a fire service coalition with representation from every fire service entity group. That coalition is very efficient and effective. The group gets along real good, works really nice. The other part is in fire safety, we have urban search and rescue and we also have the state hazmat response team. Both those teams comprise of both career firefighters and volunteers. They all get paid the same when they're out on call. So the hats off at the door has been extremely successful and it just builds a lot of great partnerships between those two entities out there on our special team. So I would just add that. Yeah, that's good, thank you. Senator Clarkson. Yeah, sorry, one further thought. I mean, I just who, I know you have a challenge recruiting new firefighters, volunteer firefighters in particular. And so I'm just curious, who's responsible for sort of marketing that and is there a campaign designed to do that? And the reason I ask is, I'm also curious about who, you know, is that a division? Because we have all this ARPA money coming and I'm just curious if there's a way that that can be used to both educate the public further about fires and or recruit more. And the educating about fires I've been made well aware of sadly with a death of a student in Portland, Oregon. And the Portland fire department created a terrific video educating particularly university and college students who are in housing, not always perfect and about fires, you know, who hadn't necessarily grown up there. And I'm just curious, you know, if you do the same kind of thing and how is that something that's on your radar screen for ARPA money? The best answer I'm gonna give you is that it's on our radar, how it's been for a number of years. And I think you'll see the same struggle in law enforcement regarding our recruitment and retention. And, you know, there's fewer people to select from today to there's fewer students that are coming out of high school. There's a lot of things that are against us when it comes to seeking volunteers to give up time with no pay to devote all these hours. And, you know, another challenge is the fire service has really evolved over the past 10, 15 years. You know, there's a lot more operational involvement that the fire service engages in now compared to 15, 20 years ago. Car accidents are different. EMS strategies are a lot different. Structure fires are a lot different. They burn a lot hotter, a lot faster. The challenges that are out there are really stacked up against the recruitment. We have had a number of meetings with the Washington delegation. Haley Perrell from Senator Sanders office has been a big supporter and ally with us. She's attended a number of meetings with us and offered some social media resources to help come out with a video on recruitment and retention. But, you know, it's across all disciplines. Nursing, it's law enforcement, fire. But it's absolutely on our radar and a concern of where, you know, what's the fire service gonna look like in five years? Yeah, no big question. Mike, I'll send you this video that was sent to me. So you can see what Portland did. So I think that, as Mike pointed out, it's across all professions. And one of the issues that, in addition to not being enough people, not enough trained people, I think one of the issues is that we're seeing an increase in the number of people who wanna have regular nine to five jobs. They don't wanna be called out in the middle of the night. And we're seeing that with our road plowers. We're seeing it with law enforcement. We're seeing it with professional medical people. A friend of mine was an OB-GYN and they couldn't recruit somebody to their office because she wanted a regular job and not to be called out in the middle of the night if somebody was giving birth. So I think that there's, I don't know how we changed that mindset, but that is a huge issue in terms of recruiting people who need to be able to respond when there is the emergency or the event. So any other questions or comments or concerns right now? So what I'm gonna suggest, thank you very much, Pete and Chris and Mike, very helpful, thank you. What I'm going to suggest to Bill is that, or Bill and Bill, as I know that Mark said that it needed to be enshrined in statute, the how to maintain that independence of the council. And I would suggest that before our next meeting on this that if you can work with, I don't know if it would be Tucker or Ameren to come up with some kind of language around what kind of language do we need to put into statute to assure the independence of the council? Is that a challenge that you'll accept? Absolutely, we appreciate the opportunity. We have interacted with Ameren some, I think we've shared some language but we'll get on that again. Yeah, I think that and I'd like to take this up again next week, so if you can, toward the end of the week. So if you could have some kind of language and I don't know who else it would be run by but just to see if we can really strengthen the statutes around the independence. We'll do, thank you. Any other questions from committee members or comments? Does that make sense to do that? Yes. Okay, and Senator Clarkson, I believe you are leaving. Oh, happily it got changed. Oh, all right, okay, okay, sorry. Sorry, okay. Thank you again to the firefighters. I'd echo Anthony's comment. We are in your depth and I appreciate it more fully being a mother of a firefighter. Senator Rom, did you have a question? Well, when our bills come back with more language on the independence of the criminal justice council, I was wondering as a new senator, if there's language somewhere about greater oversight and professional regulation investigation into misconduct that's embedded in your current framework in the CJC or if it lives in statute, I don't have that information and I would like to see how you plan to do that and how you plan to make sure that it's a mix of former law enforcement and civilian oversight in that process. Okay. Yes. Does that language exist somewhere and I've just missed it? I believe that, well, I'm not sure if I'm answering it right here, but I think there was a lot of language in 124 that directed the disciplinary procedures and then I think the council itself has additional language. That's correct, Senator. Specific reference to the ability of the council to create subcommittees, but specific mention about the professional regulation subcommittee, we felt that that was particularly important to have in statute because there are due process issues at play and felt would feel better if that was clarified in statute. We have the authority, but creating the subcommittee to handle it, which is our busiest subcommittee as you'll hear tomorrow from Bill Sheetz. So we'll get to that language. I think you might have it, but we'll make sure you have it again. Thank you. And just so the rest of the committee knows the transparent, I asked Bill Sheetz in an email to help us better understand the demographic makeup of the criminal justice council currently. So instead of guessing, he's going to ask the rest of the committee members how they identify on various demographic indicators to better understand the diversity of the criminal justice council currently. Okay, any other questions, comments? Thank you so much. And we will, I'm hoping maybe next Thursday, but I am still trying to figure out next week's schedule. So we'll go there. And again, I think the fire safety members who are here to speak to us, that was very helpful. Thank you. And thank you for your service. We do appreciate it. Thank you all very much. All right, thanks. Bye.