 Welcome back to the breakfast and plus TV Africa. Let's go back in history to the year 1961. It was on this day that one of Nigeria's, well, currently most famous politicians and from a governor of Anambra State, Peter Obi, was born in 1961 on this day. Of course, if you remember, not very long ago in 2019, was the vice presidential candidate of the PDP in the last elections. So just go back a little bit to share. Just a little, you know, tiny bit on Peter Obi. He was born on this day 19th of July 1961. He is a Nigerian politician and businessman who, of course, was vice presidential candidate in 2019. He, of course, is from a governor of Anambra State that served from 17th of March 2006 to the 2nd of November 2006 when he was impeached. Then, of course, when that impeachment was overturned, returned from the 9th of February 2007 to the 29th of May 2007, he then, of course, got another four-year tenure after he won that court case. He, you know, of course, is known to be a successful, very successful businessman who was chairman of Next International Nigeria Limited, chairman and director then of Guardian Express, Modgid Bank, Guardian Express Bank, PLC, Future View Securities Limited, Paymaster Nigeria Limited, Champs Nigeria Limited, so many of them. And also, at some point, was also appointed chairman of the Security and Action Commission by former president Goodluck Jonathan after the 2015 general elections. So we say happy birthday to Peter Obi. He is, of course, one of those governors from the southeast or one of those politicians from the southeast who has, you know, reasonably had a very, very clean record and has also been praised for being the one who transformed, you know, a lot with regards to Anambra State, Anambra's economy and the infrastructural development in Anambra State in the time that he was also there. He was, you know, his ideas and some of the things that he had mentioned in the build-up to the elections in 2019 are some of the things that, you know, the government is currently still, of course, looking at today. So happy birthday to Peter Obi and we wish him many, many, many more years on Earth. Indeed. Happy birthday to him. Let's now go to the year 2017. And on this day in history, there was a, you know, a requirement by the government for organizations to reveal the salaries of their staff, their workers. And on this day in history, July 19th, 2017, the British Broadcasting Corporation, BBC, published the salaries of its top earning journalists and presenters. And we found that this was two-thirds male, Chris Evans. Salary was the highest at over 2.2 million pounds. This was big. Sorry, are you crying? You can't compare your salary first of all as in Nigeria and so there's, out of the country. So please don't cry. You might get there. Just work hard and all. And we'll look at this, maybe. What is he doing that I'm not doing? A lot. A whole lot. What is he doing that I'm not? Do you have any accent? So back to the story. This list that the BBC published was a list of 96 stars, journalists and presenters, who end between 150,000 pounds or 195,000 dollars or more per year. You don't need to be depressed about that. Come on, it's a bit better for us here in Nigeria. And together, their earnings total more than 30 million pounds. Like I mentioned, the 94-year-old broadcaster had been facing pressure to release details about their spending, about how the TV licence fee has been spent. And of this 96 lists, 96 man lists or 96 people lists, only 34 of them were women. The remaining 62 were men. The salaries of female presenters were largely, largely dwarfed by their male counterpart. Their male counterpart earned much, much more. So when you see presenters like that on your screen, the man is receiving a higher pay than the woman. Most likely, according to what we saw on that list. So overall, 25% of men on that list received more than 250,000 pounds per year compared to just nine women. Now this announcement raised more questions than it answered because the questions were for you to release the list. Let's see how the TV licence fee has been spent. Let's see what the money is going into. So you release this list and people have more questions. Like why are men receiving more than women? I mean, they're both anchoring the same show or walking in the same place doing the same amount of work. Maybe the woman even does more. So it just raised a lot regarding the gender equality, the more paid, the gender gap story, the gender gap conversation became really big at that time. And I found that people who did lots of work in the station like production assistants and runners, people who played a huge role in the success of production and the list. So it wasn't this thing in history that the BBC made this reveal and it really, really shaped the cost of conversation regarding gender pay and how women should begin to demand for more and how they should receive more if they're doing equal or even more work than the men. So it wasn't this thing in history that we saw this big reveal in the media. Well, not necessarily more work, but as long as you're doing the same job, the same and I agree that there should be better conversations with regards to gender pay gap. We've had some crisis in sports before, but people have always argued against the sports one because the earnings with male sports has always really simply been way higher than the earnings with female sports and so you don't expect them to earn more or end the same thing with the male counterparts. But for TV presenters, for journalists, and everyone in the media space who's most likely doing the same things, have the same screen time, carrying out the same research, doing the same reporting here and there, then obviously you definitely should earn pretty much the same. I don't know how they get into agreeing on what their wages are for a person to be earning two million pounds annually. That is just completely insane. But I think it's also dependent on traffic and what that particular presenter brings to the station itself because there are particular presenters on BBC and on CNN that nobody even recognizes or knows that they exist, but they're also the ones that people look forward to seeing. They look forward to watching. It's the same screen time, one person's delivery and one person's conversations are a lot richer than the next person's conversation. There are certain shows on CNN, not just CNN, any international media organization that you really watch because of one particular person. If I read Zakaria, for example, I don't think it would be earning the same fees with Don Lemon because they would likely have the same screen time, but their conversations are totally different. One person probably pulls in more traffic, raises more money for the station. I believe that at some point during the course of their time there, there can be renegotiation of their contracts that would push them a lot higher than what they initially started with. So I feel, yes, there should be some equality with regards to... But when we bring that to Nigeria, the conversation is different because when it comes to male and female, the societal stereotype, believe that the man has more responsibilities. And this is crazy because I don't really see why your family responsibilities should factor into what the salary should be because it's about what you're bringing to the table. You can have a million people you're feeding, but you're not doing so much. I don't necessarily agree. I am telling you for a fact what's happening here. Okay, do you want to ask... No, hold on. Do you want to ask hiring managers? It's a fact that men earn more than women, especially in the media. It's a fact. But the challenge here is... So this is where my challenge is... I'm trying to tell you that this is where it's coming from. No, and that's what I don't agree with. I don't think it's because of your man's responsibility. Listen, I'm telling you what I know for a fact. They will tell you that the man has more responsibilities. They will tell you that the man is older here. They will tell you that the woman is younger. They can't pay a 24-year-old a certain amount. What does she do with the money? This is the stereotype that is prevalent in the Nigerian society. I'm going to ask HR managers for confirmation. Whatever their own reasons might be, I don't know. But the one I know for a fact is what I have just told you regarding the Nigerian society and why... I think the challenge is... I don't argue with the favoritism that will exist. That does exist in the Nigerian space with regards to pay. I would agree that that does exist. One of the things that we are likely to be talking about today is the fact that there are seven bank MDs now in Nigeria, which everyone is talking about. That's just 27% compared to all the banks. Normally it should not even be something that we should have a conversation about because it should be normal that men and women should be able to reach that height. It shouldn't be a big deal. I don't disagree that there is that disparity with regards to pay. I have a challenge. Is you calling it a fact that the reason is because they say that men have more responsibility? I said the reason from my own experience. Well, it's still not a fact. My experience is a fact. I don't know whatever you might have heard. If you've heard your own reasons why people or HR managers would pay men more, you can share that with us. I don't know if HR managers would decide to pay a man higher. Simply because a man has more responsibilities. I think it's still very, very dependent on value. Nobody goes to an interview and says, how many wives do you have? We'll pay you one million a month because you have two wives. Why do you think they pay men more in Nigeria? At the level that we are, in every discussion with regards pay, there's always some level of negotiation. If you get to that seat and you have a negotiation that says, you want to be paid a million a month and that is approved, that's what you earn. If the next person comes in and says, he wants to be paid 200,000 a month, that is going to be approved. It's really about what the company at that time, the value of the company at that time feels like you're going to bring in, and if they think that you're worth it, they can afford that person and the value that you're bringing in. It's not necessarily because they look at you and say, you have more responsibilities, so let's pay a million a month. Or you're a woman, so you don't have responsibilities, so let's pay 100,000 a month. I don't think that's how it happens. I think it's really about the negotiation with regards salary at that time. I don't think that the Nigerian workspace has a standard, including in the media with which they pay salaries. I don't think there's a particular standard which is okay. If you're going to be on this level, then that's what you're going to earn. In the federal government jobs, public service, is there a standard for level 13 female and level 13 male? I don't think there is. If you're on level 13, you're on level 13, and that's what you're going to earn. So there's no allowance for husband and allowance for wife or allowance for man and allowance for woman. So we do need that standard in organizations like the media, don't we? Well, still depends on value and what you're bringing. There should be some level, some standard. I understand and I would agree with that. But at the same time, at every discussion for employment, there is always that negotiation that goes on with regards pay. There's females that I know earn 10 times what I earn, and we're still in the same space. It just depends on where you are and the ability of that company to be able to pay you what you're asking for. If you walk into any office and you tell them you don't want to earn anything less than 2 million a month and they feel that you're going to bring that value, then yes, they will give you 2 million a month. The employers who know the woman has that value and will still refuse to give her what she's worth. I wouldn't argue that there's misogynistic... That's the challenge of our society. About these employers, male and female, it's not just men who employ. So it's also females who, from your argument, there's also females who look at other women and say, oh, you don't have responsibility. So let's pay you what, 50,000 a month. It's a societal mindset that really needs to change. We'll take a break here and return with our first big conversation regarding INEC and the electronic transmission of votes. Do stay with us.