 Hello, everyone. Welcome. And hello, everyone. Welcome. This is Pam Corsa. And just waiting for our change to spotlights. Thank you for joining us today. We're going to begin with welcome and land acknowledgement. Hello, it's Pam Corsa. And my pronouns are she her I co direct the animating democracy program with Barbara Schaefer Bacon, who is also with us today. And animating democracy is on the unseated land of the become tuck and norwatic and nip muck peoples now known now known as Western Massachusetts. Americans for the arts in Washington DC is on the land of the Anacosta and Piscataway peoples. We acknowledge these first peoples as having been connected to these lands for millennia and to this day and we give our respect and gratitude that we live and work on these lands, and also commit to do work to take meaningful actions to redress injustices of the past and present. Andrea. Thank you Pam. On behalf of art to action we are based in Tampa, Florida, which is on the land of Seminole and Tokabaga peoples with respect to indigenous peoples past, present and future. And as we grow in our work of decolonization, we build relationships at the speed of trust and endeavor to move from acknowledgement to action. So if you are with us in the chat we invite you to acknowledge the first peoples of the lands that you are on currently there in the chat on how round or here in the zoom room. Please name them and if you need a reference you can visit native land.ca. And once again thank you for joining us for the artistic imagination as a force for change this is the last in our three part series, animating democracy reflecting forward and we're delighted to have you here. We're also really excited to have a partnership with art to action on this series. Some of you may know that many moons ago Andrea SF was the third member of our animating democracy team, and in those early years when we were figuring things out. She was really instrumental and a fabulous thought partner to get our work in shape. And so it's awesome to have this opportunity to work again with her and with her colleague Gabby the gara whom we've gotten to know. Well, and she is supporting the series in all kinds of important ways. Thanks to how around for live streaming and archiving the series. This is our first chance to work with how around in this way Andrea and art to action have done many things with how around such an important resource for the field for gathering and discourse. So we want to acknowledge that in addition to the how around live stream audience art to action set up a zoom room so that we could have a little closer connection and at least some visible folks and faces with us here today but we welcome everybody from wherever you are and however you got here. Barb, tell us a little bit more about the background for the series. I'll add my welcomes to everyone it's so good to have everyone here and to be gathered. We. I'm also in the Amherst and Belcher town area in western Massachusetts. And so that land acknowledgement stretches to me as well. The reflecting forward series as we've conceived it is this opportunity to really consider the practices and the progress of this work of community based social and civically engaged art. So in the each session we're bringing forward artists and cultural leaders. From animates democracies founding years our work with the animating democracy lab and the grantees and fabulous groups and artists who are part of that. And bringing them together with a new generation of leading edge practitioners and activists and thought leaders from arts, the arts and culture sector but from other sectors as well. Through the lens of their work three very special people today that we are trying to hear them articulate the questions for today, and to imagine the future of creative change work. The structure of today's session and the other sessions in this series which you can see on how around include some context and background on animating democracy, a legacy tribute, which we offer each session. So this conversation between our featured artists and guest speakers today, Adrienne Murray Brown java lay will it Joe Zoller and facilitated by sage crump. We will invite you if you are on a chat either on how around or in the zoom room to share questions and reflections there and questions will be gathered and offered to the speakers later in the session. So we're going to switch to some images and do a little bit of that background on animating democracy. The power of arts and culture to contribute to civic and social change was illustrated by the artists and the projects and the people that animating democracy has been privileged to work with and support over the years and we want to take just a few minutes to offer a glimpse of our DNA and our 20 year history with partners and peers through some images and words. Animating democracy shown an early light on arts for change work, taking a practice to theory approach. We've stayed grounded in and supportive of local practitioner driven work. We funded arts based civic dialogue and engagement projects across the country. And we created welcoming but rigorous convenings for critical exchange and catalytic learning in the field. We asked, what does this work look like, how does the work work, and what difference is it making. And over time animating democracy has contributed to documenting and understanding arts and culture as a space and invitation and a catalyst for engagement dialogue and activism. With our partners and allies, our program programs evolved to serve and advance this expanding field of practice in 2007 with support from the WK Kellogg and the Nathan Cummings foundations. The impact initiative began work to position artists and the arts as valid and vital contributors to civic engagement and social change. We created and activated tools and resources to help practitioners, policymakers, funders, understand and assess social impacts. We engaged across sectors to nurture an ecosystem of supports and work to inform discourse and policy about quality and equitable practices. As we reflect forward we see societal changes mounting rather than receding, but support infrastructure and leadership for this work has expanded. We are pleased that recognition and resources honor a Lana and BIPOC led organizations and artists, and that the leadership for this work is more widely distributed in an evolving ecology of arts for change. In animating democracy we want to gratefully acknowledge the thought partnership and collaboration we've had from so many partners and supporters over all the years. We especially extend our admiration and gratitude to grantees advisors liaisons researchers evaluators writers who worked with us. We thank the Ford Foundation for its generous and early support, and all of our funders. On behalf of Americans for the Arts Pam and I thank you all personally for your vision, creativity, and for powerful work. Thank you. Great. So, we have one more segment before we get into the main program. And in each session that we've done so far we've paused to pay tribute to an artist or organizer now past, who's been part of animating democracy in some way and who deeply impacted our thinking and and that of the fields. And today we honor Grace Lee Boggs, a true change maker whose seven plus decades of political involvement encompass the major US social movements of the 20th century and into the 21st. Her views and influence on how change happens, and the role of creativity and changemaking are profound and lasting. This is keynote speech at the animating democracy 2003 national conference on arts and civic dialogue in Flint, Michigan, both inspired and galvanized the hundreds of artists, culture workers, organizers and cultural leaders who were there. And who did the electric conversation that happened on stage afterwards between grace and Roberta Uno, who was then our program officer at Ford Foundation. It was Roberta who introduced us to grace for which we're very grateful. And we're delighted that Roberta has joined us today to offer the tribute to grace. Roberta is herself a visionary theater director writer and thought leader who founded and directed New World Theater at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst, and in more recent years founded Arts in a Changing America. In these and many other leading edge roles, she supported the work of countless artists and organizations that are working at the intersection of arts and justice and change. And so with that, I'd like to welcome Roberta. Thank you Roberta. Thank you Pam thank you for the invitation to open today's conversation with jolly Adrian and sage. Given the series profound exploration of the power of dialogue, I can think of no one more appropriate to uplift than Grace Lee box. She was a social activist, a philosopher, an author and organizer of feminist, and she probably wouldn't like to hear this but a cultural icon who anchored her work in conversation as a deep practice to further radical change. She humbly called herself a practical intellectual and an organizer who read and thought her New York Times obituary said bogs waged a war of inspiration for civil rights, labor feminism, the environment and other causes for seven decades with the unflagging faith that revolutionary justice was around the corner. Her books have amplified her legacy through and beyond her beloved home city of Detroit. And if you haven't yet seen the film American Revolutionary the evolution of Grace Lee bogs by the extraordinary filmmaker who shares the same name Grace Lee. It will be a revelation and inspiration in the outtakes from that film. Grace spoke about how her mother was sold as a child slave in China and ran away and how her father arrived in US nearly penniless. Perhaps hers would be the quintessential immigrant success story against great odd she attained an Ivy League education at a time where there were no job opportunities for women. But she chose instead to align herself with those whose labor was most exploited. She was a Chinese American living and working in the black community in Detroit. Long before intersectionality became part of our lexicon. Grace worked at the nexus of race, gender, activism and reflection. She spoke about being a part of and apart from the black community, saying, I think it gave me an opportunity to be more things than one thing. And you have to stay in a place long enough that you can speak the truth of that place. I first learned of Grace from Nobico Miyamoto, the Asian American activist and multidisciplinary artist in LA now in her 80s. Nobico and I became friends when I was growing up as a kid in LA. And I was first taken to meet Grace by ill weaver, the Detroit lyricist performer and activist who had been part of the Detroit summer project Grace helped start. I mentioned this because Nobico is 17 years older than me and ill some 20 years younger. Grace's legacy is multi-generational, not just because of longevity, but because she connected with younger people. Hers was a mutual relationship of joy and love and learning. Grace told us our challenge is to learn from and also not be bound by the past. She continues this conversation posing hard questions that endure for us to grow our souls and transform what we see. And we want to share part of that conversation from Flint. These are the times that try our souls. Each of us needs to undergo a personal, a tremendous philosophical and spiritual transformation. Each of us needs to be awakened to a personal and compassionate recognition of the inseparable connections between our minds, hearts and bodies, between our physical persons and our psychical well-being and between ourselves and all the other cells in our country and in the world. Each of us needs to stop being a passive observer of the suffering that we know is going on in the world and start identifying with the sufferers. Each of us needs to make a leap that is both practical and philosophical beyond determinism to self-determination. Each of us has to be true to and expand our own humanity by embracing and practicing the conviction that as human beings we have free will. That despite the powers and principalities that are bent on objectifying and commodifying us in all our human relationship, the interlocking crises of our time require that we exercise the power within us to make principal choices in our ongoing daily and political lives. Choices that will eventually, though not inevitably, make a difference. How do you change anger into positive change? How do you go beyond rebellion to revolutionary? How do we conceive revolutionary differently? Revolution differently from the way that we conceived it in the past. What are we talking about that we are going to do that will be different? So I hope that we leave here recognizing that as someone said last night, there are no simple answers. But we have a responsibility, activist and artist alike, to expand the imagination to increase the courage and the readiness to think anew in order to address this question, like all the other interconnection questions. Thank you. What we do has to arise organically out of our situations, out of the context. We need biological metaphors rather than mechanical metaphors. There's a paper out, I think, in the new theater on the table there called Detroit Space and Place to Begin anew. And on the back of that column, which I wrote for the Christianism, there's a thing called grassroots postmodernism. I think all of us have to begin asking ourselves, how do we think holistically rather than mechanically? Thank you, Roberta, for that very beautiful and moving tribute and also to Americans for the Arts and Anime and Democracy for that footage and to Gabby Vigara for editing it for us. We welcome you to share in the chat if you're on HowlRound or in the Zoom room, any remembrances of Grace Leibogs or the way her legacy has impacted you or your work or your community. And now with that in our hearts and with that inspiration moving us toward a conversation, I'm going to briefly introduce our featured guests. We will see bios on the screen for our speakers and you can also find them on the HowlRound website for this event. You can see the bio there, but I like to do a brief relational introduction and say that Jawele Zeller is one of the artists leading choreographer and thought leader and one of our most brilliant contemporary artists in the national field of the arts and beyond. I remember as a young artist myself when I first saw Urban Bush Women's Praise House, it completely revolutionized my understanding of what theater and dance and live performance could be. And Jawele's work with Anime and Democracy included the hair stories project which we might hear more about or we'll definitely share links. And of course she is a Guggenheim, a MacArthur fellow, and has a long list of incredible accomplishments and in addition to designing and leading the Urban Bush Women's Summer Leadership Institute, which is a transformational program. So we're very, very excited to have Jawele Zeller with us today in conversation with Adrienne Marie Brown, who, as many of you know, is a thought leader whose ideas and writing and podcasts have spread like wildfire truly through multiple intersecting fields, including the arts, community organizing, facilitation, activism, literature and much more. And we are very, very excited. I know I've been inspired by emergent strategy and pleasure activism, and many of her other works and we really look forward to having her live in person. And we're really all facilitated by the extraordinary Sage Crump, who, whose leadership, I have had the honor of witnessing in spaces such as alternate routes, the National Performance Network and Lane, and through artistic work, such as collaborations with people who you already heard about from Roberta on, on Beware of the Dandelions and complex movements to all of the facilitation and leadership that she has throughout the field, including having served as a board member of Art to Action. And I cannot think of a better person more appropriate to facilitate this emergent conversation that we are about to witness. So please welcome Sage Crump, who will then welcome our guest speakers. Sage, how are you today? I am bubbling with excitement, Andrea. I am so excited to be here and really sitting with Roberta's tribute and the always inspiring words from Grace, what the legacy always continue. Welcome everyone, we're so excited to all have chosen to, to spend this Friday afternoon in conversation around artistic imagination as a force for change. I'll add my excitement to the conversation with Jowalee and Adrian, both of whom I've worked with closely in different ways, and I want to offer us just a little bit of like how to, how to maybe sit in this conversation, right? I think there's something really to be said about this idea of artistic imagination as a force for change. And as a force also you can think of force, not just the pushing of something but as a fulcrum for change. Like how does artistic imagination shape how change happens, what it looks like. And as we think about the transformation of the world in which we live, how are we putting our practices in relationship to our ability to imagine a future that isn't determined by, as Grace said, determinism, isn't determined by what we already know, but what we believe we all deserve. And I think this is a body of folks who are engaging that in so many different ways shout out to folks I'm seeing coming through, and whoever's watching the fact that you chose to be here on your Friday afternoon speaks volumes about that which is important to you. And so I want to invite Adrian and Jowalee to come on in and join some three of us can begin our conversation. Hey, Adrian. Hi, Jowalee. Hi. How are you? How are you today? Good. I'm nervous, and it's a good nervous. It's a good nervous. Just to be here with you, Adrian and sage and words are not the thing that I feel like they're my primary language so I was getting a little nervous, but it's a good nervous system. It's a wonderful nervous. Yeah, I feel that too. I think of it as like the aliveness of like wow I'm being present in something that really matters to me. And, you know, if you feel moved to dance at any point, I think we would all be open to it so yeah. Absolutely be open to any any movement offerings that might happen to just express to express. I want to start out with just a few if you have some reflections on the video that that we just saw from grace I think one of the, the beauties of opening up with that pieces. And I think it's the grace's encouragement to find something new to address the interlocking crises of our times. And I always love like that was in 2003 and here we are 2022 and I gotta say that feels real on point still. And so I would love to hear what's sitting with you all from that conversation. I was at that, I was at that talk at animating democracy. And for those of us that were there we also remember that she stayed up afterwards talking with us I think I left it two or three in the morning, and she was still. But holistic, which the complexities of the work that we do are often people asked to divide us up. And, and really feeling that commitment to wholism and holistic, and all the, and the ways it makes our work complicated, and it makes us complicated was affirmation for me. I love that. For me, I, I was really moved to an emotional place I just miss, I miss her. I miss her so much and there's so much that's going on right now that I'm like, oh I wish I could ask what she thinks about this. And then it's so beautiful to watch these videos and be like oh yeah she already told us, she called, you know I was like oh yeah that's what she thought about it. That's what we need to be doing and I'm, I, I love. She's one of the people who I feel made it most clear to me how important self determinism is, and self determination is inside of our collective moves forward that there was something that's like you. Every single one of you, you know, be before we were talking about things and like fractal was our language, but that way of being every single person in this room has to do this work and figure this out and everyone we meet. Also has to do this like that's the way to be in relationship with each other is like, where do each of us need to become a part of something so much larger than ourselves. And then what is the role that the imagination plays inside of that. I keep thinking of, you know, how to be imaginative in a way that invites more imagination from others, rather than in a way that's like, there the imagination is done you don't have to do it. You know, I'm always like, no, no, no, I want that I want invitational imagination work. And I'm always in that question so I always was. Yeah, I often I also wanted to ask her what time is it on the clock of the world now from where you're sitting. She always asked us that question. And right now it feels like things are falling apart more but also more as possible. Like, which she always made me think I was like the more things fall apart the more possibility there is for something else to emerge. So yeah. Thank you both. What did you think Sage. Yeah, I'm sitting I am deeply in this. I do like combating our pessimism is how I often talk about it that that both graces lifetime of constantly thinking about and we and rethinking reimagining over and over again in relationship to current context is a continual inspiration for me like in a way that it never, it never gets tired right like it's always something like, and that it is part of the commitment to, and the relationship between sort of combating pessimism and imagination. Yeah, that the inspiration of imagination the inspiration of artistic imagination, or that that helps me stay the course, right to stay in it when when we are thinking about these these interlocking crises and when it's interlocking crises and when it does look like things are falling apart that I can look at the, the, you know, the garlic the onions and the bell pepper. And maybe it's not a traditional gumbo because I'm allergic to seafood but maybe it's a duck gumbo right like maybe it's like maybe it's something else, and to constantly be able to be in the. It can be that it can be something else, and that the search of that which it could be feels enlivening. Yeah, I love that that piece you know she always talks about his time to grow our souls. And I think about that to like it's just like you grow the most adaptive creatures grow with what's around them. Right, so it's like okay what is who is around you, what inspires you about that. How can you grow together so yeah. Yeah, I think about this also this this. You know so much in my life is watching has been watching things fall apart, and then how they come back together. Things fall apart and then they find you find a way with with the community of people to understand what you need to do next, in order to move things forward and to write to to write to write things, and it's, it's a, I think when, you know, when I think about grace it's it's ongoing work you just don't get it. One time you don't get it. It's not it's not like it's done. It's, it's ongoing and constant questioning falling down and figuring out how what what the recovery and repair process is. I so appreciate it. I love talking to dancers about falling down. Falling is a whole part of our study falling. The act of falling is a whole part of our physical study, and it's on stage. It's a powerful thing. Once you realize that you're at a point of no return, and you have to give into that moment and surrender, and, and relax into the fall, and then look at how you, how you emerge from there. Thank you so much. I want to as we're talking about this sort of one of things Grace said is is in relationship to our mind, body and spirit. And so in addition to all the beautiful conversations we're going to have about ideas I also am excited about offerings from both. And we know you are in an exciting new, well, the shape of a practice that you have for shaping your practice in a different in a in new and exciting ways and so I want to offer up the space for for you to share with us a little bit about your artistic this arm of your artistic practice that is growing. Thank you. Well, I have to, everyone has to know this that sage it made all my dreams come true. So I walk around singing songs all the time and like, getting locked out of places I don't care because I'm like I'll just sing the entire time, and then later on, and I kept telling sage about this and she was like maybe I could connect you to someone who could help with this and connected me to someone who has commissioned me to do a whole musical ritual. And it is really a dream come true, like I feel like an artistic artistic endeavor in a candy shop. That's if that makes sense. I want to share with you one of the songs that has been coming through. And for those of you who are, if you are in New York, or Holland, or Oregon, or St. Louis, those are over the next year and a half we're going to be bringing the ritual to those places. So this song that I'm going to share with you emerge from a conversation with Beverly Glen Copeland, who I kind of worship and adore, and I think everyone should. So we had this talk, and then I wrote this song. It goes like this. Oh, great. Now my face is even bigger. That's fine. Open the way inside you. The universe is your only breath surrender to the present moment. What's coming now is all that's left. What's coming now is all that's left. All that's left. Many rivers flow through us. Many creatures become us. Many storms change the journey. The dirt keeps calling us home. See the soil within you. You drum beat you shimmering leave. Listen for the sound of sunlight. That's worth your grief. Open the way inside you. The universe is your only breath surrender to the present moment. What's coming now is all that's left. Open the way inside you. The universe is your only breath surrender to the present moment. What's coming now is all that's left. What's coming now is all that's left. Thank you so much, Adrienne. Thank you for letting me share. And what a serendipitous choice, because again, we just, we were talking about falling and surrendering. And then hearing the same words echoed in your song, it feels like there is, there is something to be said about creativity and artistic imagination being found in the release in the, in the, not in, not always in the push for something but in the, in the letting it go. Yeah, I keep, I feel like this is the main lesson of this time. And it's not necessarily the lesson that I like to learn. Like, I've always been one who's like I made it perfect look I created something perfect that's how I like to work. And this time is like, let go of everything. And then let go some more. And the places where I see us suffering as a species are the places where we're like, I refuse to let go. I refuse to release this comfort this moment. And it's like, but the future is actually predicated on letting go of a lot of these systems that we know don't work for us and that are not fair. So as an artist, I think that that's what I keep thinking how do we invite people to let go and remind them that there's enough, like, there's enough, like there's breath we have earth that feeds us. We have an earth that wants to feed us and we have so much to offer each other. I think this is actually an interesting moment or day, you know, Twitter is like falling apart. And I see all these people being like, Well, what are we going to do that's my community and it's like everything you've learned to do there. You can do with each other in a million different ways, and we will find ways that are not compromised in that way. Right. But it's like, every day, what can you let go of today and what can you let go of today. And I will say the only other thing I want to add to that is the universe also keeps giving me this other thing which is like when you let go of the thing that is toxic, something better is there on the other side of it. And every time it's like this is a crisis was like it's okay, because there's actually something better, waiting you something less compromising, you know, I went through a big breakup this year so I'm like, you know, you just have to let things go sometimes and then that line about living a life worth your grief you know Sage and I are in this community and pandemic joy community and it's all like grief. And it feels like a whole community that's bringing our songs and our music and I love to the idea of like letting go and grieving together and recognizing that that might be one of the main activities of community in this time is being like how do we grieve together and love each other into something else. Thank you. I keep hearing each other like this is about to say to me like, mm, mm. You know, I think that the aging process is so much. Okay, the lightest changing. Don't don't change the thing it looks so beautiful on you right now. Thank you. The aging process is a lot about just letting go and accepting and figuring out, you know what you need to do to be present to how things are changing and then where that initiative is but okay I really need to walk more because I want a positive change there. That's what I'm accepting about the aging process is that letting go. I stopped wearing makeup. I just, you know, like, you know, I think I'm just not going to wear anymore foundation anymore I used to do that if there was a zoom like I think I'm just letting that go. Not lipstick. Okay, let's not let's not lose it all now. But I think part of what part of what that that's making me feel into a job is also like in the, in the letting go, we find choice and the relationship between I'm wondering both of you, either of you, however, you want to engage this can talk about the relationship between choice and imagination. You know, grace is a is a is part of one of the major theorists of the idea of dialectical humanism the idea of like choice being central to how we think about transformation. It is a great color, your lipstick towel a by the way. And I think there's something, whenever I'm in these conversations, I never want to give the impression like oh yeah just, you know just release it's great like just. But that, but that there is always choice regardless of whether there's consequence. Well, that there is consequence and choice is a thing. But I wonder how you can talk to us about the relationship between choice and imagination. What that can inspire in us around what's possible. I go back to my dance and I think I think through everything about making dances and being inside of the dancing process and I'm teaching choreographies. It's all about choice making it's all about the rigor of choice making. And I think that's the thing I love about the choreographic process, as I'm choreographing my life is that there are so it's, it's there is a difference between the hand being here, and the hand being there, and the hand being there. And so the investigation tells me something about what I'm trying to say and why I want to say it, and why it's maybe urgent to see it. And so the, the, I love the choice making part of the choreographic process of the of the dancing process, because it really asked me to be specific and open and organic and precise, all at the same time and that's kind of where I think about how I think about my life is that that's what I'm choreographing, and how to be, how to be those things in the wholism and the complexity of, of the movement. And the movement, being the meta movement and the movement. Yeah. Anyone who knows me knows I love a good framework so this idea of organic, open and precise. I know I was like, delicious. Yeah. Oh that that's a beautiful, beautiful place to sit. Adrian, what are your thoughts on choice and imagination. Yeah, I mean, I think at the heart of most of my practice around imagination is the desire to return choice to more of us, to all of us. So, you know this idea that we're living in an imagination battle, which I learned from Terry Marshall over intelligent mischief. I'm like we live inside of other people's imaginations that are so fortified that we think we don't have choices. Like we live inside you know someone imagined us in a white supremacist world and now we are in this world where it's like oh that's a reality we have to contend with. I think about Tony Morrison all the time saying like that's a distraction. Right, but someone imagined it, and that distraction is now so fortified so for me a lot of both flexing and stretching and try to push my own imagination is returning choice to myself, and then doing that in a collective ideation collective imagining is like, if we weren't in an oppositional stance at all times. If we could imagine ourselves being in a generative stance, what would that look like what would we create what would we want community to look like. And then I keep thinking. Oh, this is the time when we need to be in a generative stance with our imaginations and building something that we're like very excited to then protect. Right, because I feel like there's a way it can feel like oh, we're backed into a corner. It's miserable. The climate is this and whites are everything and it's like we're just protecting the right to stay alive. And that's what we're here for. We're here to love we're here to generate we're here to make art we're here to co create a world that is beautiful. And yes, I think that imagination is at the root of choice. And I also think that it's one of the ways. Even when it seems like all the doors are closed, it's one of the ways that we stay open. So I'm thinking about mature core, who is we just learned is going to be released. I know that this last phase of his life can be lived in freedom, but I'm thinking about all these political prisoners and what they've taught us about how imagination is sustained them inside of these cages. And I don't think we're that different, you know, we all need to be flexing these imaginations to get ourselves to stay connected and move outside of any cages that people try to put us into so. I feel like imagination, as long as our imaginations are intact and functional and practiced I don't think that we can never be fully contained by anything. You know, imaginations are octopus self right it can always get free it can always find a way out, and you can always find a way forward. I appreciate you bringing in Adrian like political prisoners and, and the imagination of that we are living in. And I want to kind of connect that to what you're saying jolly about choice being precise. And part of how we can be precise is about how we understand what is going on with the world. What is going on with material conditions we live in. And what is our either. And when I say response to I don't mean it in necessarily the oppositional way, but what is that which gets us more free. And so this is the point where I said, jolly I'm going to try and find an elegant segue for you to talk about the video about the work of urban Bush women and the bold, what you call bold. So I would love you to kind of set up the video we have, and talk a little bit about that work. The video was done a few years back, and in it you'll see Maria Bowman, who was the associate artistic director of the time at that time, and Maria is now doing her own beautiful work. And we have a shenan Jetson and mom Jada space, who are the co artistic directors, but it's what what bold is about really is the leadership development and how we nurture that inside of the organization, and with others it's bold stands for builders, and organizers and leaders through dance. So about how we embody about how we, how we know what we know as dance and take it into movement building. And so this. So when I saw this video because I had forgotten about it. And it just really it was a reminder for me of, of this work so we were doing workshops that were just like all over the place, and I felt like it needed to be housed in a stronger concept and we're just doing 10,000 workshops. So it was the building of our teaching and facilitation network that bold became centered in and connected to the artistic work so it's artistic creative work. So that's what the video place matters. So each place has its own unique history and story that's worth telling and in fact we can't move forward until we've looked back at the history of a particular place. In the spirit of holism in the spirit of catharsis in the spirit of storytelling, how can folks use their bodies as as reclaiming reclaiming a sense of ownership over this beautiful self across lines of oppression across lines of inequity and really use the body to tell stories that are important. Urban Bush Women is a contemporary dance company that was founded in 1984 by Jalolee Willa-Jozal and we tend to think of Urban Bush Women like a body. And so we've got one arm of Urban Bush Women that is the touring and the performance creating new innovative works for stage. Then there's the other arm of the work which is also danced but not with professional dancers. It's our community engagement arm. Our community engagement takes lots of forms. Everything we do is collaborative. The tool may be the same but work on the other side really matters. And as we work with communities there's a spirit of reciprocity and sometimes folks get confused. Like what do these two arms have to do with each other and how do they talk to each other, how do they intersect and we say well they're not disembodied arms, they're actually connected here by our core values. Social justice and rigorous fine art really can be meshed and linked. That wasn't always understood. What are some of the values that we've really come to internalize such as asset mapping, intent versus impact. So again it's really a paradigm shift from a more outreach top-down model. The other deep passion outside of performing is teaching. I love working with young people. So this is an opportunity for me to really merge both of those great loves. And I also love that Town Hall gives us the opportunity to not just share with them but we also get to have classes where we can facilitate with them. We sometimes get to bring them on stage. I remember being that person. I remember seeing dancers on stage and saying wow I want to be able to do that. What's your mother tongue? Are you a step dancer? Are you a poet? Are you an executive? And we've been really lucky to facilitate that in all kinds of settings from boardrooms to dance studios. We're very clear about our story and the way that we work but sometimes it is a little bit difficult to frame it in a way that folks can hear it. Explaining the marriage between these and how they both actually feed into one another. You know the community engagement work very definitely feeds into the artistic work and the artistic work feeds exactly into how we facilitate and the unique way that urban Bush women is able to bring out community voices. Thank you so much for that sharing Javelin for the beautiful work of urban Bush women over decades. I was talking about you earlier and the way you have held the community and urban Bush women for years of inspiration from start to finish from the founding of the company. This moment one of the things that feels resonant both in the work of bold and also Adrian what I know of the ritual is that it's not again not just performance. So I gotta say one of one of my, you know the phrases that you know makes your ass itch the phrase that you're just like, ah, that's just like this like the changing hearts and minds narratives right like that that's just here you know to to feel differently but there's also the fact that that both of you have been really thoughtful in the work around the works relationship beyond the performance moment itself, or what does it mean to bring folks into the performance I'm wondering what does that offer us when we think about artistic imagination for change and for change meaning not just yes the individual and for the world in which we live in and for communities right. There's something that feels important to each of yours individual artistic theory of change that has community in it. And I'm wondering if you can talk to us about why that's important and what do you think that does. I was going to say I want to hear what you say I love this video this was really beautiful to watch and I want to hear what you like I'm like, oh, you clearly have a lot to teach us about this I want to give you first go. Yeah, I mean, I. It's it's sometimes it sounds nostalgic to say, I grew up in a community where the community really looked out for one another so I was so you're raised by a whole bunch of people. Nobody knew where you were in your, you know, you're out in the street playing nobody knew where you were but you had to be home but you know before the street lights came on. And it sounds like it's this nostalgic thing that that I'm remembering something that was, you know, but it really was how I grew up and so these, there were things that people would say over and over again, each one teach one lift one. And I think these were things that people coming out of enslavement and reconstruction and figuring out how to build lives together that were meaningful. And so community was just a part of how how people came together to survive and to thrive. And so, I never thought about being outside a community. And I think maybe that was the most confusing thing for me when I went to college to study dance was trying to figure that out but I always ended up back in the community somewhere in you know with the community dance schools or, or something I had to come back to that. So, I don't, I fear if we're operating outside of out of a community of people I don't quite know. I love that when I do that that's not a good thing for me personally. So I need to be in that so I don't know if I can. I just know it's rooted in who I am what I do how I grew up. And yeah, how I make work. I love that it shows. It shows in the work. I mean, I will say, I feel like I had almost the opposite experience like I grew up in a military family. It was like moving every two years and community was kind of this prescription that you know it's like you land in a place like the community, but it was always with that it'll you'll have to let it go, you're going to have to let it go, you'll have to change it again. And so part of my adult life has been learning like a community is always the answer and how to build community and how to, how to show up in community and so, you know, with the merchant strategy, the emergence. What is an offering of community. How do we give people something that's like, you can come and actively practice being in community together. And so with the musical ritual that it's the same thing but it's like, not everyone's going to come do a four day intensive experience with their community. And I remember hearing, I think it might have been Patty burn from sins and valid someone said, you know, asked her why do you do shows why do you do performances and she's like, like people might not come to workshop but they're going to come see a show they're going to come get entertained and I was like, there's something here where you can give community and offering that might teach them something but is not necessarily didactic, and it might give them something but it's not. There's no transaction to it. It's just like, let's be in it together. And what I'm already learning in this process. I'm collaborating with Troy Anthony, and his way of working, even building the songs is to create a choir community. And so every song like, I'm like, singing it into my voice memo, feeling these raw emotions about being numb and I'm like no one's ever going to hear this and, you know, I'm like, how do I bring this to community and I share it with him. He has a whole group of 70 people now singing the song 100 people seeing the song. And I'm learning what the role of an introvert hermit creator, you know, can be inside of a community in this way. You know, Octavia Butler is always on my shoulder because she's always like it's okay you can be a hermit, you can be an introvert, and you can still be a meaningful part of community processes know you can write that way and think that way. And I wonder for you you were talking earlier about choreography. And, you know, when I'm writing my poetry when I'm writing my spells. I never feel alone, even if I'm, I am maybe by myself in that moment. It always feels like I'm tapping into this river of what we are experiencing what we are feeling. And I feel that when I watch the Urban Witch Woman dance and I watch these shows. And I wonder if that feels similar like when you're choreographing is it like a community moving in your body. Absolutely. And I want to go back to though, the introvert hermit because that that you're speaking my language in terms of just like, no it's really true. The dance makes me social. The dance brings me into a social community. I, I've been performing since I was maybe seven, eight years old. It is through the act of performing that I really couldn't both connect. You know, easily, but at my heart and soul, you know, you know, that little nerdy and, you know, person can stand to be alone a lot. And so I think that's an important thing to understand, but I am and maybe that's why I'm drawn to performing because it brings me out of an into connection with others. But definitely when I'm, it's funny, I was just teaching the in my class the other day, I talked, I was talking about how, how the invisible people that are on stage with you. And so even when I'm performing by myself, there's a whole group of people that are on the stage that I'm seeing that I'm connecting with that I'm feeling behind me on the side of me. So the engagement in the room as a performer, whether there are other people on that stage or not but you know that the room is full. And that's who I'm dancing with and for and from. I feel you so intensely like when I'm writing, especially now I'm making these forays into fiction. And I always say like I'm sitting by myself but the room is thick. And like someone is going to come like last night I was trying to take a bath, I was taking a bath I wasn't there's no attempt I was in the bath was taking the bath but I was trying to relax. I was like my day is done I did it all. And then one of my characters comes. Listen, I need to tell you about this thing that needs to be in there and I am like okay great let me just give you 10 minutes, 10 minutes, you know and then an hour later I'm like sitting in the lukewarm cold bath, whatever just like. Okay, you know but it's not like I, I really appreciate that what you're saying because I feel like there's an sage this maybe brings it back to this work of the imagination it's like with the imagination reminds us that we're never alone. I also don't think imagination is like, it sparks from my brain cell. I think imagination is one of the ways I dance with my ancestors and I dance with those yet to come is imagination is how grace lives on in me. Imagination is how Octavia lives on in me, as I'm like, Oh, like, here's a thought that feels beyond my comprehension right now, but it's a new I a new idea but it's never knew it's like, this is what's coming down the river of all of us, you know. I'm reading my notes Adrian over here. Listening to you all I'm thinking about the, the Jamaican British cultural theorist Stuart Hall, Stuart Hall says there is no Genesis only genealogy. Okay, that's right. I mean, like, oh, it's not just that there's always a genealogy there's always a community there's always in, even in the in the way that Andrea referenced alternate roots they talk about community of place tradition in spirit. There's always, like, multitudes. I love the idea to that sometimes, you know, part of what drew me to grace because I was very skeptical with bracelet blocks at first, because everyone around me was just like grace. And I was just like, who one person can't have all that power like why is everybody you know, but then I met her, and I was like, Oh, grace got it. Boom. The thing one of the things that always moved me was I would feel like I was having an idea. And then I would read a book of graces, where she had written that idea down 40 years earlier. And so I had to contend with. It's not that I didn't have that this didn't originate in me. But it wasn't original. If that makes sense, right. But it's like, when I the things that I love the most are those that have lasted throughout history, like I'll read something from Rumi, I'll read something from loud to read something. And I'm like, humans know this. Like we know this, and we keep dancing with this knowledge. We know it. Yeah. And when you said that I just a earlier, there was say kusundi out his name that was. I was listening to his music the other day and the, I think it's see I can't remember the name forever see maybe. And it's from he says from this one thing comes Tim things. I think that's, and I think in cultivating imagination. It's really understanding that it's inspiration is around you all the time in every single place. And, and one of the, the directors that we worked with for many years Steven Kent, a director in Los Angeles, and Steve Steve would give us the tools and the technique to understand how to see and access that. So it was not just for granted but so that you so that that your, your presence of like everything and I think that's the reason that I really always loved writing on the subway. Yeah, all of the challenges. It's the same way on the plane, but I'll show you this I hope you all can see this is my ancestor altar space and it's just, you know, for whatever reason this place I was like this needs to be in my office this needs to be here, so that whenever I'm sitting here writing or talking to you all I'm like, you know, it's all around. It's all around. And there's a way then that it also makes me feel very hopeful about this moment right because I'm like, it's all changing but we are shaping it also like we are choreographing we are casting our spells like we are actually shaping this and I have say just this is a good time to ask a question if I have. Yes, so I have this question you talk talked about this like what aging has taught you about creativity and I think all of us in some way our body is a core part of the instrument with which we are creating. And so for dance it's like the body like physically being able to move the body in certain ways. And for me it's like, I think in song and a lot of it is like trying to figure out how to sing and I want to, I would love to hear anything you can share about what creating looks like as your instrument literally ages and becomes more available, as maybe some things become less available. I would say in the beginning when I first formed the company, maybe 70 to 80% of the material that was generated came out of my body collaborative process, and then over time, because my physical imagination is very different than a younger generations. So over time I think that's probably maybe now 10 to 20% might come out of my body and, and what's coming out of their body because I'm not going to imagine some of the ways that that they are falling swirling or breaking, that's not in my body's imagination. So I think it's really understanding that it's just a shift. I still have something to offer physically. And it's, I, it's, it's learning to maybe respect that. So I think there was a period creating with the company where I just kind of pulled away from things coming out of my body because I didn't, I didn't trust it anymore now it's not good it's old fashioned, it's another generation blah, blah, blah, and I kind of pulled back away from that. And what I had to learn to understand is no it's, it's different. It's present, but, but I need to be present to what I'm seeing in the room from others, and then what's coming up out of me and trust their reinvention of what they're seeing coming out of me. Fabulous. Yes, and guided. Oh, I love that. I love that I mean it's, that's helpful to hear because so much of it. I keep thinking there's something about accessibility in it, like there's something about more people being able to access and co create. You know, when I was a younger singer in my 20s. It was a huge octave range and I was just like everything I sang was like, you know, like way up in the rafters. And maybe those are great songs but nobody else could ever sing them, you know, or, or do you have to be a trained singer to pull it off. And now I feel like I'm writing songs that are more available like more voices can sing them and more people can hear them and be like, Yeah, I could do that, which actually maybe feels more important to me now that more people you know that's like, how do I have less barriers to creating, rather than what I used to think was like the ultimate rigor of perfection, you know, so this is helpful to hear from me. And Jawele, we wanted to make sure that there was an exchange for answering any question. I had a question but I've changed it. That's okay. Absolutely. I was, I was so struck when I read Emergent Strategies you know my mind was completely blown. When I read that and I love one of the things that I love doing, or is is, I connect more to writers writing process, often than I do to choreographers process. And I'm sure there's lots of books, or things about how writers find what they're doing and I'd love to know the many, I'm sure there's many processes about your writing process. Oh yeah, I mean, well I just told you one one is that things, you know, come along and they grab at me. And I think the strategy in particular felt like a collaborative work with spirit, collaborative work with something beyond myself. And it was, if I think the best way to describe it is, it's like something beyond myself came down and partnered with the part of me that was discontent with how things were. I was doing movement work I was in nonprofit world I was trying to do this dance with philanthropy and trying to help people make change and I was so frustrated. I was so like, we're never going to make change this way like we have to figure out something else, and then laying on my back in Mexico exhausted and trying to figure out there's ants crawling across the ceiling and they're like, we know something about this if you'll listen to us. And then the same thing kept happening with schools of fish, and I would go in the ocean like the earth was just like girl, you are frustrated for good reason but you all are not the smartest creatures. You know, like this, it really was like a shaking off of the human supremacy or human prioritization of thinking it's like survival happens in all these different ways. A lot of it just poured through. And then I think the thing I've gotten better at over the years is then sharing my work with others, and being like, where, what am I missing, help me see what I can't see on the page. So like emergent strategy, I was mostly done with it. I was like, I've got it. And then I was like, but I need other voices in here, it's not enough for it to just be my own voice. And then I reached out to all these people and I was like, how is nature taught you. And this is where, you know, I think there's maybe a choreography or a curation, because I think one of my gifts is weaving together lots of voices, and lots of ideas and lots of ways of thinking. And I love doing that, like it brings me intense joy to be like, Oh, this quote with this one. And then this thing, you know, like, I get so excited about that and yeah, so my process, you know, a lot of it is, is that it's just been like, let me hold on to this and I'll figure out a place to put it, or do these people even know that they've come up with these gorgeous ideas that are in conversation with each other. And, and then there's the rapture. I what I think of is the raptures writing the raptures process where it's just like, I have written a lot of my work sneaking off into a bathroom because it's like it's here right now and I have to do it and I can't explain to anyone, you know, if you try to say like I need to take 10 minutes in the middle of dinner to write. People like what if you're like I'm gonna go to the bathroom no one argues with you. So I'll run into a bathroom at a restaurant, I've run into bathrooms during Thanksgiving dinner whatever it was and just been like, I'm back in an hour they're like what's wrong with your bowel system I'm like nothing. Nothing is wrong with me I'm fine but I just wrote something that people will read and I will, you know that's how I also feel connected. When I write something that when I write something the things that I have written that have to have the most impact. Like, I could feel it when it was, you know, like I put the period and I was like, wow, and it's usually the most vulnerable thing. Like I'm like, I could never say this to other people but which I wonder about to for dance, you know, like it because there's so much that's just like, I grew up as a good girl. I grew up as someone who was like there's just things you don't say there's things you don't question. And a lot of my writing, especially heading into the pleasure activism territory and I'm like I'm writing about these things but I'm like but they do need to be written about and I can feel when I write it I'm like, okay that you know, and then as I get older I let more and more people edit. So, I think that's making me a better writer to you. I love that I think of myself as a quilter, really. Sometimes, sometimes I feel like I've, I get the credit but but there's these what I know how to do and this is if you've been around the Summer Leadership Institute you know that like these hundred people and taking that and making it feel like one. Oh, he's a vision. Yes, is just that is absolutely where my joy. I mean it's taken a long time to see that that's a gift, you know for a long time I was like in the background of my own creation because I was facilitating. So I'd be like, something magical happen and you know in Lao Tzu says in the Dao De Ching, if the master has done his work well the people will know that they did it themselves. Right. And to me that always feels like the highest, you know, I'm like that's what I want to aim for is even to write a book where eventually no one remembers my name, but everyone remembers these ideas like people just like oh yeah to ants. Like to me that'll be the ultimate achievement or the ultimate success. Although in this moment, it's nice to be recognized enough to be able to continue to do the work. Right. So there's that balance of like, thank you for seeing me enough to let me keep going and and how to keep leaving and leaving and leaving, you know. Thank you both those are such juicy questions of each other. We have maybe about five more minutes. I want to take one of the questions that's come up from from the chat. And I think Adrian you sort of teed this up. And I'm going to I'm going to take it a step back because this person is referencing pleasure activism, and talking about justice being one of the most pleasurable experiences we can have. And a lot of us think about Tony Cape and borrow making revolutionary, making revolutionary resistible right like. So, and so I'm holding that like pleasure, making it a resistible awesome relationship to choice and imagination, right, because what we also said earlier is like choices consequences right like or, or how do we get how does how does precision and I'm sitting, I'm sitting with that job and I will for a minute about or because you said something else around the relationship to the other other bodies and bodies imaginations of the other dancers. And I was like, Oh, that's the openness right like it's the organic open, then precise right. So I'm wondering what and the question from the person is that would love to hear both of you talk about the idea of pleasure in relationship to artistic strategies for change making. I don't know I'm just at a point in my life it's got to be fun. It's just got to be fun. I, you know, I remember years ago when I first started the company as a company member, Anita Gonzalez, wherever you are in DC, and Anita said to me because I was so intense. It was so intense. She said, you know this can be fun. And I was like, No, I'm artists. And, and I think just for me now it's like understanding that even in the most intensive places of investigation and all of that that the joy bringing bringing the joy into the room. Yeah, is just, you know that's that's just where I am now, but there'll be many people who worked with me over the years that will testify to testify in a different way to working with me because you know the joy was hard, hard, you know, hard to come by. But that's where I am now that it's got I've got it. Yeah. For just just one more peelback. What does the joy offer you. Why choose the joy open heart. It's the blissful relationship to when you've the openness of your heart, compassion. You know, because I particularly growing up in the 60s and 70s in the political movements of so much judgment so much hard edge so much. You know, before the revolution and you know you're not either before you're not and it was just a lot of heart, heart edge and so I think for me the joy and the less is really the opening of the heart and once that's open then you can, you can give and receive fruitful ways. I mean, all of that I really feel, I've been thinking a lot about my energy lately, and how, if I'm not experiencing pleasure, like if it's not there's not a pleasurable aspect to what I'm doing. It's actually very easy for me to dip into despair. It's very easy there's a plenty of it in every direction. And I started to notice that that I'm like there's so much work to do. There are different people cut out for every kind of work. Right. So, I've never gotten pleasure one day in my life from working on a budget. I know people who love that shit they're like, I love. All right, so for me I'm like, Oh, like, let me move towards the thing that gives me pleasure, right, which is this writing work which is singing these songs. I have other people like that would terrify me I would hate that I don't do that. I'm like, I think that there's a clue that what you get pleasure from is actually related to what you're calling is what you're meant to be doing in relationship to the community. And I think if everyone's actually following that calling, everyone finds the work that needs to be done, you know, so there's part of it that's that there's also part of it that's like, I want to do a lot in this lifetime. I'm ambitious still, and I want to create a lot. And it's not. Now I feel like I have hard proof. Every project that I've worked on where I was having a pleasurable time while I was creating it has had like a massive reach, like, that's the stuff that people are like, Yes, I needed to, you know, I was like, Is anyone going to read this little book about ants? Yes. I'm like, Great, because I fucking loved writing about these ants and I want to talk about ants for the rest of my life, and then pleasure activism I was like can I take the risk. Will people take me seriously as a leader if I talk about the fact that I think an orgasm every day is a crucial part of being alive. Turns out absolutely people are like you liberated my practice and so now it's the same thing where I'm like, Is it okay, even in such a serious time to go say I want to make some music, and I want to make spells, you know, and it brings me so much joy. And so far the universe is really responding with a yes and there's so many people are like, We do all need to be singing our way through this. That's what we've always done to get through hard times as we sing, and we make love, and we craft things and we dance, and we find our way through it. And yeah, I also think it's like this is the construct we live in, the construct we live in, distracts us from the fact that we are wired for pleasure. Like I'm not trying to be, you know, I'm not trying to mislead you I'm trying to say go back to your body your body will tell you I don't have to tell you your body will you're wired for pleasure, like run a feather along your collarbone. I didn't make that up, like whoever created you crafted you with all these nerve endings and whoever created us made it so that we hug each other. And it feels like home, you know, all of that is important. I think it's what I think it's the clue of what we're supposed to be heading so I'm like yeah it's not pleasurable I don't want to I'm trying to be I'm trying to get the courage to write because it's difficult for me. It's joy about this. So I'm so inspired by you because, okay, you can do it. And do you know what jolly and I tell stage stage knows about this, I tell people this all the time that I'm like there's many ways to write. And sometimes people like they think about this one way of writing. And it's like, that's terrifying. But just now on this call you have dropped Jim after Jim after Jim after Jim, you can talk a book into being. We can transcribe it we can gather we can edit it we can figure it out. But like, all you have to do is just know what you know, and say what you know and will take care of the rest. Thank you. We can talk about right here. You heard it here first y'all jolleys manifest and yeah because I also do think in this period of time there's this thing that happens with a book that is meaningful. It's, it's like there's, we do have to be writing our stories down. I was listening to Angela Davis and Fania Davis for a conversation recently and Angela was talking about how she remembers when there was only one book about black women's when she had it on her shelf. And then now that there's so many that she can't have one shelf or one room or one place in her house for it there's just so many books. And I'm like, yeah, now we're now getting more specific in this precision piece what are the stories that need to be told right now. Yours is absolutely one that's very exciting. Absolutely. This conversation has been a part of that and so just grateful and thank you to both of you for saying yes for showing up for your generosity for your brilliance for your excitement for your fangirling of each other that we all are feeling in the moment. That led to, to such a liveness and such excitement. Yeah, thank you for your time and everyone I'm going to invite for guiding a sage. Pam back into place. I can only reflect what is happening in the chat to say that we have been hanging on your words we have been noting them and they will, they will be shared. Often. And yes, to pleasure and joy that this has been. We are so grateful to you, Adrienne, jolly sage. Because you bring it's an authentic conversation that you gave to us. And because you bring your whole selves, voices and bodies into the world all of the time as artists and activists to, and you do it with power and not meant as a pun but in honor with grace. And it's quite beautiful it is how you know that your values are reflected in all the ways you do and think about your work and work with others that is, is the big motivation for me and thank you so much for being here. Pam. Oh my goodness. That's that's a hard. Thank you to follow. I want to express my appreciation to all of you as well. But I also want to lift up the folks behind the scenes who have helped to make the session possible, certainly Andrea and Gabby at art to action. Amazing amazing partners to work with I would do it again in a heartbeat. Thank you, Meyer, our tech person has been an extraordinary ally to make everything smooth and wonderful. I love working with them. And at how around the Rogers Vijay Matthew Jamie gallon thank you so so much for all of your support. And thank you to all of the patrons for the arts and Marie Watson Daniel Rick Meyer, Michael Chotos, Teresa Coleman and Narelli Serrano. Thank you to everybody for, for all that you did to make this a really amazing session. Welcome to the thanks this was a dream conversation that I was hungry for and I am so grateful to all of you for saying yes and showing up and being 110% present as you always are and sharing your wisdom and brilliant brilliance and experience with all of us. Thank you to anime and democracy of course for this wonderful collaboration and partnership and to how around. And if you are watching and you want to see the previous sessions in the series or just rewatch this one because it was so good and juicy. Thank you to how around and and just look up the anime and democracy, democracy reflecting forward series on how around, or stay in touch with anime and democracy and art to action I also want to give a shout out to our DJ cotton for the music intro and outro. And thank you all for being with us. Thank you.