 So we are recording and you have a quorum basu. All right, great. Good afternoon everybody. We'll call that a great week and welcome again and this is going to be an exciting session we have somebody from greenfield. Carol, Carol Collins, Collins, yeah, he's going to talk about CPA so going to be a very exciting session so again thank you all. Let's, let's look at the minutes from last week and what on them. Did anyone have any concerns or questions on the minutes from the last meeting. I thought they were fine I would move to it just adopt them as they are. Thanks Laura. And I seconded thank you. Actually who's taking minutes this meeting. I think it's Laura, Laura here. Oh, Laura's not here. So who's after Laura on the list. Jesse, Jesse. We're here to solve a bigger problem Jesse so it's okay. So I'm going to do a voice vote for the minutes. Allison. Yes. Goldner. Yes. D. Yes. Regevan. Yes. Roof. Yes. Selman. Sorry, Jesse. Yes. Rose. All right. Minutes are approved. All right, thank you. And let's open up to the public for any public comments. We don't have any public. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. You're welcome. May I sit easy. All right. Staff updates Stephanie. Okay. So I was on vacation. Thank you. I was on vacation last week. So I've been, I feel like mostly I've been answering emails. And trying to coordinate for the next three committee meetings coming up. So one thing I can report back is that the town has applied for funding for an electric school bus. So the town is not eligible for the 100% EPA funding because of. We're not in a specific district. So we would only get, we're only getting. We're applying for some funding to cover the purchase of an electric school bus. So it won't get us all the way there. The other barrier we're kind of facing is that. Ever source is not clear that they are going to provide the funding for the infrastructure. So it's not clear that they're going to provide the funding. But it's not clear that they're going to provide the funding for the installation. Installment, which they have done in other grants. And so they're still. In the process of negotiating that the DPU may actually require them to do that. But I think last communication I had. With my contact there. That hadn't come through yet. They think it might, but it just hasn't yet. So there should be another round of. Ever source infrastructure support, but it's not clear that they're going to provide the funding. So it's not clear that they're going to provide the funding for the electric school buses, more than no school buses. So that's moving forward. Just quick shout out to Stella as well for staying on top of it and communicating to everyone, you know, and your community to try to get this. Get the grant approved. Right. So appreciate it. Thanks. Yeah. You're like, is it me? No, it arose organically, but I'm glad it worked out. Yeah. Every little thing matters. So thank you. Yes. So, so there, there's that the green communities. Funding opportunity is coming up in October. We will be applying for that. I'm meeting with the facilities manager. And we are meeting with a consultant who did some audits, audit information. So we're going to get that. And then we're going to do some audits. And then we're going to do some audits. And then we're going to do some audits for a few specific projects that the. Facilities manager already had lined up. So we'll be taking a look at those. Some of those are for the months in library. And I think I'm advocating for us to get, you know, transition off of fossil fuels. Completely over at months in. And I think the facilities manager is trying to do that as well. So that might be the first building that we could actually achieve that. So, you know, there is a pathway as I mentioned at the last meeting, there is a pathway for a zero net zero building. Funding, but I don't know that we'll be able to achieve that for this application round. When you do it kind of locks you in for a couple of years and you can't apply for more funding until you complete that project 100%. So there are some limitations, but I don't think they're, you know, they would sort of push us back too far. So I'm excited about the opportunities that are coming up through the federal legislation and the state legislation. I sent you a summary that was sent to me by Sarah Ross. It is an incredible summary with some funding opportunities. So I was so thankful for her coming upon that and sharing it with myself and the. Finance director. So. So we have that information, which is exciting. I'm sorry, Stephanie. I didn't read that. Is there anything that we can should be doing? Well, I would just say read through it. You know, I really only took a very, very quick read through, but there's just some opportunities that I think will. It wasn't too specific other than just sort of alerting us to the. Areas where we might be able to provide, you know, to get some support for funding, like for instance, heat pumps for low income communities. So, you know, those are the types of opportunities, transportation vehicle, transportation opportunities. It's really about helping communities with electrifying fleets and buildings and making that move to electrification. So. You know, it's kind of what we've been. Anticipating in what we've been working towards, which has been something that's been. Sort of common knowledge throughout. Communities about these are the two areas. So I think the government has sort of addressed is trying to address those primary needs. So I will say, I'm a little frustrated though about the federal infrastructure. Act because. The problem that I have seen is that with the. Electric vehicle incentives. If the engine isn't, yeah, if the engine isn't fully. Constructed in the United States. Then we lose the incentive funding. So you actually lose federal incentive funding. And if you, I've been. I've been sort of in the market to try to find, to get an EV for quite a while. And I've been sort of waiting, thinking it would get easier. And it seems like it's gotten more complicated. And the incentives. And yeah, inexpensive. So unfortunately. So that's a little bit of a barrier, which I hope they'll address. Yeah, yes, Lori. So I just wanted to point out that there is now, I actually contacted somebody at. Department of energy about this because they had been keeping the list of who's eligible for what rebates. And their webpage hasn't been updated yet, but there's another one at. I forget which department that is now publishing which cars are eligible. But the problem is they also didn't take away the $200,000 cap, right? So a lot of the few cars that are constructed in the U.S. are no longer eligible because the leaf and the bolt, for example, but on the other hand, the prices on those cars are also coming down, especially the bolt. It's come down exactly $7,000. So, you know where the rebate was going. Yeah, yes. Yeah. Yeah. So it is frustrating. I'm also in the market for a luxury vehicle and it's, we should trade stories sometime. Yes. I can send the link. I can send the link where the current state of things. If I can find it, I'll try to just send it to you afterwards definitely. And you can distribute it as you can. No, that would be great. And I might even try to, you know, if I can, I feel like I want to try to get some of this stuff up on the, the town's website too for information for, for residents. So. If you share that, I would really appreciate it. It's exciting. I think there is incentives for used EVs, which is new. But that was one of the few exciting things I saw there. Yeah. So I think that that's primarily what I have for, for today. Thanks, Stephanie. And is Anna there, Stephanie? Oh, so Anna sent an email late that she cannot make the meeting tonight. So unfortunately we've, I was looking at our agenda. It's, it's dwindling rapidly. And I don't know when Carol will appear because she had another meeting. And so I just told her to show up as an attendee and I'll, I'll bring her in when she's available. Okay. All right. Any ECAG member. No, I wanted to ask a question. Stephanie, could you tell us about the. Panel that you participated in. In Northampton about sustainability. You know, I was asked to be part of a panel of sustainability directors. Coordinators or something. Directors. Yeah. Can you repeat your question? Sorry. Stephanie knows I'm talking. Yes. So I'll just launch because I was. I was asked to be part of a panel of sustainability directors. To talk about what it is. So I was asked to be part of a panel of sustainability directors. I was asked to be part of a panel of sustainability directors. Some impact going forward. And it was primarily for the city of Northampton. There was a group of folks from Northampton that sponsored this forum. And invited us. Who are panel participants. And they basically were looking for information because Northampton doesn't really have a sustainability director. It was kind of wrapped into the planning director's role. And it was not necessarily a sustainability director. It was a community. But it was strongly that it should be its own very standalone position. So they were trying to get information about communities that do have this role and what we do. And I pointed out that I was the only coordinator. Everybody else was a director. So I pointed that out here. So, but it was great. And we've had a few, We had at least one meeting and we're going to have, I think, some others. And with the meeting that I attended, I didn't, because I was just, literally, just away from vacation, I didn't have a lot to think ahead to sort of prepare questions, but we actually had some folks from the state, from E.E.A. at the meeting, attending the meeting. And it was great because as we, you know, several people pointed out, and I think to your point, Vasu, in the past, when you're trying to contact an agency, it's not ever clear who it is that you should get in touch with and who could potentially come and speak to us and whether they're available to do that. You know, I sort of get the sense it's hard or it's kind of rather difficult for a reason, but there was at least one person that, whose name I got, who would, said that he would be available to us and to communities to respond. So I thought, you know, there might be an opportunity there through him to get him to come to a future meeting if you all have like a very specific ask of information that you want from the state. So I could reach out to him and he may not be the right person, but he might be able to get me to the right person. And I will say too that I've reached out to people that I have worked with. I was on the Green Communities Advisory Committee and I think I still am, but I'm not sure. We haven't had a meeting for a little bit, but I reached out to people that I've actually worked with on that committee and about linking, connecting me with other people and I have not had responses. So it's not always easy, but I think this panel was really helpful to bridge a barrier that has existed and I think we'll have maybe more moving forward. Yeah, Stephanie, I wonder if at some point we need to talk about, I know we talked about the decarbonization roadmap because Steve had some presentation. We need to talk about CECP and I wonder if that person can come and talk to us about CECP because it's about 2025 and 2030 goals. So maybe there's some value there. So connecting the 2025 goals and 2030 goals to the decarbonization roadmap in 2050 and then make that connection to what we're supposed to do in 2025. Mm-hmm. Okay, I'll make it a note. And I would just, yeah, I have set up one-on-ones with all of you, right? We wanna chat with each of you individually. My intent for doing that is to understand your interests, what role do you wanna play and also how we can engage the community because I want this forum to be where there are more people participating. And I don't know, Andra, that you're part of mothers out front. There's all the other groups that you're a part of. I don't know how many people go to that, right? We, and typically when we have people on this call, it's the usual three, four people from the community that participate. And I'm hoping that when we bring whoever that contact is, Stephanie, that we have a larger community partnership in this forum. Not sure how we'll get there, but... Well, the other thing that we might consider is just doing it not as part of a meeting, but doing it as like a separate event, where we can maybe bring in a few people and have a panel, which is actually, I think, more of a draw for folks from the state too because they're then addressing a larger audience. And at least, my experience, especially if we partner with like the League of Women Voters, events that we've done in the past that have been sponsored by the League have had a much better turnout. We've done them at the, I mean, this was pre-COVID, but we did them at the middle school. I remember one climate forum in particular that was great and we had Ellen Store. I think it was, I worked with Ellen Storey's office on it. It was primarily Ellen Storey's office, but they worked with me to help organize that event. And it was a great turnout. So, and we had state senators and state reps. on the panel talking about climate change. I can't remember what year, I'm sure I could find some correspondence about it, but it would be great to do something like that again. Especially Mindy and Joe, I feel like they'd be great. Sorry. Yeah, I guess, maybe not today, but I'd like to put on the agenda in the future. What it would mean to have directors, sustainability in Amherst, and what role DCAC might be able to play. Okay, I'm sure we can get that on a future agenda. Et cetera. Any other ECAC member, please? Laurie, you always have something. Oh, I'm just continuing on my journey to try to figure out what the heck. So I will report, I made a little more progress this week only in, I spoke with Block Power, I spoke with two other energy companies, but I still don't really have a complete story. I suspect I won't for a while. So I think I will keep quiet on the heat pump stuff for a while until I have a good story to tell and a good understanding of everything. But meanwhile, the other thing I wanted to ask about though, I just had a question really, which is I'm wondering in light of the climate bill that got passed in Massachusetts, there are two big climate bills that I guess passed this the last time we met, right? There's the IRA federally and there's the Massachusetts climate bill, which was signed. And that had in it this interesting home rule petition thing, which I didn't know much about. And I also wonder, this is regards note, I think this group has been mostly focused on transitioning buildings that are already here. But I wonder if it's worth at some point, I'm just gonna throw this out there as something we might wanna do or put on the agenda in a future meeting, whether we want to consider trying to push for building code that requires all new buildings to be greenhouse gas-free and whether or not we wanna put our own home rule petition in to make that happen. The idea being that the more communities that push for this, the more likely it is to happen. Right now there are only 10 communities that are gonna be allowed to do it. And it's up in the air, which ones are going to be allowed to do it? And it looks like it might be until July next year until we even have rules about how it's gonna happen. But I think the more communities that push the faster that might happen. So something to think about down the line, I think we have more urgent things right now. Like figuring out how to get people to buy into PACE. I'd like to suggest that our building electrification accelerator team might be reconstituted to focus on this. Cause that an initial team got us to the rental bylaw work. And maybe we could start a new one or overlapping that we'd focus on looking at the home rule petition. Does everybody know what that mechanism is? Even I'm a little cloudy on it stills, Andra. So maybe you could, if it seemed appropriate, maybe you could tell us. Yeah. So Berkeley was the first city to say no new fossil fuel buildings, period. Don't know what the law is in California, but in Massachusetts we have home rule, by the grace of the state. And the state sets the building code. And so localities don't have that power. Filing a home rule petition to require all new buildings to be all electric was a tactic that was started by Brookline and then built on by a few other towns that then partnered with Rocky Mountain Institute to create this building electrification accelerator program that we participated in. And the goal is to get more and more municipalities to pass the resolutions that are and put in home rule petitions. As Laurie said, to pressure the state, to show the state, people are ready, we want to go all electric. And what happened this year with this, the bill that was just signed was that there were a number of different tactics and Senator Michael Barrett from Lexington had a hearing that allowed for all of those tactics to be surfaced. It included the home rule petitions themselves. Those are like their bills, you know, that have to be passed by the legislature. And a statewide bill from Rep Khan and Newton that was to make all new buildings statewide all electric and that allowed for a lot of really good information to come out and for legislators to advocate. For there to be, you know, something in the bill that that was just passed. And it got whittled down and whittled down to a demonstration project with 10 municipalities being allowed chosen by the DPU to try it out to show that you can build electric buildings. And so now... Andra, this is only for new buildings though, right? Only for new buildings. Yeah. So my question was how many new buildings do we have and they come up in Amherst? And do we really see value if we focus on that? Yeah. I think the heat pump program I think is more valuable, but do we have a lot of buildings that prop up every year? We have new buildings every year. And it would make a difference, not just here. You know, part of the point is to have an impact on the state. Yeah. So that's why I say, we should put it, it's not our top priority right now, but I do think it should be on our agenda and we should push the council to do because it helps everybody. It aids in this effort, you know, overall. Yeah. And a part of that discussion, we should also be looking at the specialized stretch code that the DOER just proposed that does not allow you to go all electric in your requirements. But it has a lot of good things. Thanks, Anna. Okay. Any other member of this? Anna is out. There's a zero waste bylaw. So I don't think there's a lot of changes or any changes at all since we last looked at it. It's going in front of the console on September 22nd. I don't believe we should. Vote for it. We've already approved it. Six months ago. So any questions or concerns on not voting on the. Zero waste bylaw. If it would help it. Look, we looked at favorably. Why wouldn't we, you know, reaffirm our vote or whatever. And also, doesn't it now have. A final version that we should look at. We were going to look at something. Yeah. It hasn't changed much as looking at. What was originally sent and reviewed. It's not much. And we have four of the six or how many consulers are there. Four consulers are four at this point. I know Anna is not so. Not yet. Right. I don't know what her position is. And it might have been a good forum for us to talk to Anna about it. But. Okay. Do y'all feel that we should. Review and vote on it next time we meet. Yeah, I think we should have a look at it and just, and just give it another. Just a quick, you know, should be, should be pretty quick. I would imagine. Yeah. And just give it another vote of confidence. If this is something we should look at. And we should certainly communicate that to Anna and our individual. Representatives. Okay. Stephanie, do you have the final draft? I may have it. I certainly have access to it, but as much as all of you do, if it's sent into the town council's packet. Everybody has access to what's in their packets. Okay. Do you know the timing of. Council's September 22nd. So we have that. Yeah. We have time, but I don't know if we're going to. Meet before that. And we want to talk about that as the next topic as well. I know people are out next. The next meeting. Laura cannot make it. Stephanie cannot make it. But okay. I'll take the action item now. To send the draft to everybody. Zero waste by law. Yes, Don. At this next council meeting. What exactly are they supposed to be doing? Are they voting to send it to planning? Are they. I mean, where procedurally is. Is the council on the proposed. Bylaw. I'm not exactly sure, Don. I'm trying to. Or unless somebody else knows. I just know there's a next meeting. The proposal is now in town services and outreach committee with the request that they report back to the council within 15. 90 days. So I'm not sure I can. I'll see if I can dig up some information and. I don't know who the best contact would be to. Fill me in, Stephanie. I was just going to say, if it's at the TSO and they're reviewing it. And they're. Charged with making a recommendation to the council. So they have to do their process with reviewing it, come up to a decision. As to recommend or not. And then they would bring that to the council. So the council would then vote. Is my understanding of the. That pathway. So would it be reaching out to the TSO to understand the timeline. Better. Yeah, you might check in with TSO or, you know, TSO or. You know, the, or. Lynn or. Athena. Okay. Is that the final step or does it need to go to. Planning? I mean, does the council, then. If they vote to endorse it or move it forward. What is the next step? So, well, yeah, if they, I mean, if they, it's going to be, if it's. If it's a written up. Then planning. I mean, If they, I mean, if they, it's going to be, if it's. If it's a written up. Then planning would be involved in the drafting. Which they may have been already. I'm not sure. But typically it does go through planning as well as the council. It's hard because like not everything has the exact same pathway. You know, when I showed you the solar by law, you know, it's just things, it depends on what it's addressing. So I'm not a hundred percent clear on what other. Committees would need to review. It's already, I know that the health. The board of health has already looked at it. So I think they made a recommendation. So I think it's gone through some of that gauntlet already. And I think if the town council adopts it, then it's, that's kind of like the final. And then we have to find somebody who could do the job, right? So it goes through a coding process. So right now we have monopoly in USA recycling. So that's going to change in the future. Yes, Andrew. Given that the TSO must be discussing it now. And, you know, they may not remember that we already contacted them about it, maybe just an email to them reminding them that we had previously endorsed the. The plan. That would. Okay. So. Are you all okay with what's already been decided. Yeah. So you're okay with just me sending an email out on behalf of the town council? Yes. Okay. Thank you. So if it would help, we could try to find the last letter that was sent in support. It should be in a packet. So I can take that up for you. Thank you. Okay. Well, let's talk about the. Vacation now I know we're not part of the, it's not part of the agenda. So. Is everybody planning on attending our next meeting on September 7th. You all make it. I will be in the Southwest hiking somewhere. Okay. And Laura cannot. Stephanie, you will not be able to make it. What about the rest of us? So if you have a quorum, which it looks like you do. Then I can ask. If they can have someone. Basically just do the, the zoom. Coordination. And typically what they could do is just, they'll set it up, they'll start, and then at some point they'll just assign. You as a host. As chair, and then you can just close it out when you're done. So they'll get it going, but they may not stay for the whole thing. Okay. Cause I want to take the next meeting to talk about. Strategy and what we're planning on doing. So that's why the meetings with all of you individually, and then rule it up to. Actions that we can take. Just be very focused, right? And I've heard from some of you that, you know, the best time. Or the best effort was when we all worked together on something common and was the carp. So it's going to be something like that. So we'll, we'll chat. I'm sorry. I'm going to miss that. Okay. So we're going to keep. Yeah. Do you want to talk about the meeting on the 21st too? Because I think you have more folks. Oh, Dwayne is not going to be, I think, I think Dwayne said he can't be at the next meeting also. It was one, I'm sorry. I can pull up my email from him, but there was another meeting that he said he could not attend. Okay. And maybe the meeting on the 21st. And I know, Andrew, aren't you out on the 21st? And Laura. So that might be the meeting that you. Okay. I actually don't have a quorum for. Okay. So is the recommendation to cancel that meeting or just postpone it to the following week? I think you all need to decide what you can do. That means you would have two meetings in a row. It's just about, for me, it's just the logistics of posting. But if you could let me just take a second to open my. Stephanie, maybe I, let's cancel it. I think there's going to be, after our conversation next week, there might be some actions that we can all take. It's going to take some time anyway. So let's cancel the next, the meeting on the 21st. And then we'll catch up on the fifth. And talk a lot. Oh, sorry. Or. Oh, I was just going to say, I think the fifth is Yom Kippur. So I won't be here. And I. My sense of this committee is a lot of others won't be as well. We don't take, well, but also we don't have. We don't typically hold meetings in town hall. For a high holidays. So that might mean. Yeah. That's fine. Yeah. That would work fine. Yeah. That's fine. Yeah. So cancel the 21st and October 5th. And schedule one for the 28th. December 28th. Perfect. Yeah. Okay. And just shift. I think we should just shift everything then just, just two weeks after that, right? We're just shifting schedule. Sure. I mean, we could do that. That's fine, too. Yeah. Okay. I'll have to change all my settings, but that's okay. Okay. So you, so you're, so September 28th and then you said October. 12th. Yeah. All right. We'll try to attend. Sounds like the next meeting is going to be pretty important. So I will. Try to attend. No promises, but I'll be in Arizona. Okay. Let's move on to see pace. And is the green field. No, Carol is not here yet. I think she said 530 to me. Okay. I can do that. No, Carol is not here yet. I think she said 530 to me. Okay. I can give a brief solar, but well is still is Stella going to be. Stella, are you talking about? Yeah, I have a couple of things I can talk about. It'll be quick. Yeah. So I actually just got back like. Two hours ago from a road trip visiting my friend. Who's a former college roommate, but it was actually kind of an ECAC work trip because she happens to be the transportation planning manager for the city of Durham, North Carolina. She's an engineer. And an urban planner. So she sent me some things. Because mostly we're not chatting about that, but we also were chatting about that. And she sent me some things that might be of interest that I'm going to send on to Stephanie. And then I keep trying to find attack meeting to go to. I think I just might need to write the chair. If you want to just send me Stephanie at some point. Who to write. Because it seems like they're not meeting super regularly. I don't know if that's like quorum issues or vacation or what. To just kind of. All of the above. Okay. Yeah. To just kind of get a handle on what's going on over there. And. What opportunities for, for collaboration there might be. If you can't, if we can't get in touch with the chair, I can at least connect you with staff. Who are liaisons. Yeah, that would be great. And then yeah, kind of on the note of if anybody. It can be hard to find people with expertise to chat if anyone wants to hear from the transportation planning manager of Durham, North Carolina. Yeah. Let me know. During Durham is doing a lot actually. Yeah, she's really smart. I mean, obviously she's my friend. So I'm going to say that, but. She was working for the triangle, like the buses before. And I don't know. Yeah. So is there anything we're sharing. From what your friends sent now. I don't think so. There's some concrete, like trainings and webinars and things. I don't think there's that, that's definitely concerned around if anybody wants to go to them. Okay. Any questions for still. Okay. The solar bylaw did Stephanie. Sure. So the group had a meeting on the 11th. And. A lot of that was discussion about the decarbonization plan. Martha Hanner gave an overview. She read it and then gave an overview to the committee. And one of the things that came up that I think is relevant. To this group and especially Steve. Is that Martha kind of ended. You know, there was the question of what percentage of this plan is Amherst responsible for. And Steve, having already basically done that calculation. I was thinking today as I was driving that it might be a great opportunity. And I'm sure Dwayne has already thought of this, but to have you present your information to that. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. So. Solar bylaw working group. Because some of them may have senior presentation previously, but there are others that I know for sure have not. So as a committee, it might be good to give them some food for thought. So. Dwayne is not available right now. And I'm trying to pull together the agenda for. Our next meeting is on the 31st. So I don't know if. I'm sorry, from noon to two. And. Be if you're. Willing to do something, you know, at that, at that meeting. So if you're available and willing. I could at least. Pose that to Dwayne. Let me check. You said that's August 31st. August 31st from noon to 2pm. I could be, yes. I'll just be jumping out of class close to noon, but. I don't know. I don't know. I can jump right into that. Yeah. I did bring up that concept of sort of what is Amherst's share. When I did my presentation. And I got some useful feedback and pushback and alternative views, which I think we're all really. Fascinating. It's a tough one to pin down. So. I think there's one way to do it, which I did it just by population. Portion of Amherst population to Massachusetts population. But I don't know. That's the best way. Certainly not the only way. People pointed out that there are towns in eastern mass that have such high population and small area that. They wouldn't be able to meet their goal, even if they covered their entire town with solar. And I think that then other communities on the flip side, I think that's the best way to do it. I think that's the best way to do it. I think that's the best way to do it. Some of the less densely populated communities might say, oh, you know, we only need about 10 acres of solar and we're all set. We're done. Which perhaps is not quite. The best way of thinking about it. So there may be some other ways of doing that. So that could be a fun discussion. And I guess I would want to maybe connect with Dwayne to think about how we frame that. Conversation. So the, the, the, the most important thing about the, the, the map. You know, in terms of forested land and agricultural land. You know, the concentration of the most viable agricultural land is out here. And so, and there's very little in the eastern part of the state. And then we also have sort of the largest. Portion of forested area and the state is out in western mass. So it seems like. and thinking about it, I was thinking how, you know, there's a case for really preserving agricultural land because it's all very concentrated and it is out here. But maybe the point about the forested land, whereas the majority of forested land is out here in the straight may make sense to sort of consider on private land, maybe, you know, there's more leeway or, you know, there's specific areas that the community might consider that would be allowed for clearing. If, you know, the committee sort of looks at in that perspective as more of us in relation to the state, not just the town, I guess is what I'm the perspective that I sort of had in looking at that, so. Yeah, it's just rereading even this afternoon the update to the Clean Energy Climate Plan. And there's a nice chapter here on Massachusetts natural working lands that emphasizes the importance of the working lands for all sorts of things, ecosystem services and wood products as well as carbon sequestration. And that's important. I found the other chapter of the plan on electricity, clean electricity to be quite vague in terms of exactly how much solar we would need as part of the plan. And I think they're deferring until that statewide assessment can be completed, the technical assessment for solar capacity across the state. And I think that's gotten started, but it's probably at least a year out from being completed. So yeah, I'd love to do a conversation. What I want to try to avoid is this sort of solar versus forest mindset. I don't think that's productive. I don't think it's necessary to pick them against each other. But perhaps by just looking at the total amount of solar we need and not addressing the details of where it can go, I think it can help people prepare at least for the future conversation as to where it could go once we have a better sense as to the total amount we would need. And I think that's what they were looking for. Okay, perfect. So I think presenting that as one approach and that there are actually other ways of trying to define what that responsibility is is helpful to sort of bring up the alternatives. But even just having one clear defined pathway of looking at it, I think would be helpful for them. So I'll certainly pass along that you could potentially do the next meeting. Good, and I missed the previous meeting of the solar bylaw working group. Is that recorded and available? Yes, they are. Well, actually, it's on YouTube. So Amherst has a website for all our recorded meetings. So if you go to Amherst YouTube. Amherst YouTube, okay. They're all listed. And if you go by date, they're listed by date. And I know they are there because I've looked them up myself and included links in the minutes. Okay, great, thank you. You're welcome. Sorry, but you brought up something that I just wanted to address, which was the assessment. Because I forgot to mention that. So the update there is that we only had one proposal. And I, because I was on vacation, I haven't really had a chance to dive into it, but Duane and I are going to hopefully meet. Because he's away, I wasn't able to actually connect with him, but I did send him an email with a copy of it and wanted to meet with him to sort of discuss it. I don't know that I can share that quite now because of procurement law and issues. So I'm not going to say who it was, but as I said, there's only one. I did talk to the finance director about the possibility of looking at it. If we don't think it's going to really meet our needs, could there are two options to us. One would be either we could sign a contract with them and then we can request services up to 25% more and add on to the cost of what they've bid for, that we would pay them. So we could include, could go up by an additional 25%. And I will say that I think they came in low. All I did was look at the price and I was skeptical at just what they submitted for a cost for a six month assessment of the entire town. So that's one approach potentially that we could do if we don't feel we are getting what we need and if we have a conversation with them and think that they can do more than we would, we can go that route. The other option is that if we review this and we think that it's lacking in what we were identifying in our scope of work, if they're not really meeting the scope of work, then we can basically just reject it. We have to have very specific reasons why we reject it. And then we could, I guess, reach out to some of the firms that didn't bid on the project. There were two, there were three interested total and only one applied. So we could reach out to the other two and then maybe some additional ones that we think might have and why they didn't. We could reach out to them and sort of ask them why they didn't bid and maybe alter the proposal, the request for proposal to reflect some of those responses. So that's another option, but obviously as you well know, that means more time and it's just delaying, delaying this. But I don't know in my mind, I think we want a quality product. Yeah, Stephanie, the timeline for solar assessment should kind of run parallel with the solar bylaw working group, right? Yes, I mean, ultimately that will serve as a tool for them to refer to, but it's not, this has been a really challenging sticking point because it's not, in and of itself, it's not driving the development of the solar bylaw. It's a tool that can be referred to in terms of maybe identifying, having the finished product and then using that to sort of identify the prioritization of where we may or may not be able to develop solar. I mean, I'll tell you, looking at, Chris Brestrup also did a presentation of land use at the last meeting and there really is not a whole lot. I mean, there's just not gonna be a whole lot of available space to develop solar. So it's where battery storage and community solar and being the offtaker for other projects elsewhere may come into play in terms of Amherst trying to meet some of its goals. So anyway, I think it's a tool, but it's not, and it would be helpful to have it done before the solar bylaw is finalized for sure. I don't think... When is that, Stephanie? So that's due May 31st. And I don't know, I mean, I don't know that this is such a hard and fast deadline that if for some reason they needed more time, I would think they would be able to request that the council give them more time. And so the assessment was sent as a proposal for a six month assessment from start to finish. It would take six months. But now we're getting into September. And if we do have to go out to bid again for some reason, if we don't go with the one proposal that we got, we're looking into maybe October for receipt of proposals. So it still gets us within... I think it still gets us within that timeframe, but it's gonna be tight. Yes. Is it possible that the statewide assessment would suffice for Amherst? And we could not spend the money and do one specifically for Amherst and wait for the statewide assessment to be complete? So I think the company, the firm that's doing the statewide assessment was one of the ones that was potentially interested. The focus was a bit different. It's not as specific as some of what we were looking for. So it might be more general. It could certainly help, but I don't know that it's gonna get us the level of information that we were hoping for. And that was the response from the folks that were potentially interested. I am going to reach out. I do have the email that was sent to our accounting department. So I'm gonna reach out and see if I can get more information from them about what they're doing and how it differs and why they didn't apply. Another possibility is for a smaller scale assessment would be to see if folks at UMass in various departments there have pretty good expertise in GIS, whether they might be able to address at least some of the questions that the town assessment was hoping to get. It probably couldn't do everything, but perhaps take off some of the high priorities and then the statewide assessment might fill in the rest. Well, as I said, I'm meeting with Dwayne to review the proposal. So I think, and I'd like to review it with him. So I think the two of us will go over it because he was gonna be on the committee to interview the respondents. So he and I will talk and I think, I'll mention this as a possibility too, but it may be that the response, like I said, I really haven't read through the proposal yet. I haven't had a chance to really sit down and digest it. And because I wanna do it with the scope of work, I wanna make sure that their responses are directly related to the scope of work. And it may be that they did address things sufficiently that we would go with them. So this conversation might be moved. Perfect, I think that's a great plan. Yeah, good questions, Steve. Andra? We did have a GIS survey done as a part of the research for the carp, right? We had a very baseline. That was a really, really baseline. The subsequent one that we had done that I shared with you all, it was very specific to 10 sites, but some of those sites are ones that we do absolutely wanna develop like the high school parking, you know, for solar canopy. So some of that more really in-depth analysis was done under that report. The one that niche engineering did was a really very baseline and they also looked at a few, they were also looking at a few specific locations in particular for the possibility of solar with battery storage. And they were looking at like housing complexes, community housing, so. So wouldn't it be nice if we could have a map with the potential places overlaid, the 10 locations that we have more information, you know, overlaid on that, with information that we know so far. You already have information from Chris Brestrup about land use. Right, so the planning. We're gonna go together and maybe see that, oh, we have 10, the 10 most likely sites already studied. There's only five other ones, just focus there. So we do, so that the land use map that Chris was referring to was done for the master plan. So it's actually the land use plan that's part of the master plan. The information that you're, the way that you're sort of laying this out, we met with Mike Warner, who is our GIS specialist for the town at a meeting for the Solar By-law Working Group. And when we were talking about the things that the committee was looking for, and Duane was basically articulating that on behalf of the committee. So he really was very knowledgeable about what it was he was asking for. He, Mike's response was basically like, I, this could potentially happen, but it's not an easy, it's not like you just take these things and put them together and that you have what you need. It's much more complicated. So it's not, I don't, I think he sort of said it's not impossible, but it's much more involved than it sounds like it would be. It sounds easy to just do those things. It's like requesting the data from the rental registration process, you know? That Steve is still waiting, I think, to get what he's looking for. So again, you know, it's not that it's impossible, but it's gonna take a lot to do that. And I think what we would do is take the information. I mean, certainly when we bring the consultant on, we're gonna give them the carp, we're gonna give them the master plan, we're gonna give them both solar studies that were previously done, you know? So they're gonna have that at, you know, their disposal to use as reference and to sort of have some places to start. I mean, it will probably give them a jump start, as you said. Yes, Steve. I was just gonna add that the question that comes up, largely in the public sphere is when we talk about the amount of solar that we would need for 2050 goals, a lot of people say, well, great, but let's put it on rooftops and parking lots. And so the question that needs to be answered is beyond those 10 specific sites, because the amount that we need for the 2050 goals, if we do it by population is, I don't know, 10 or 20 times greater than what those particular sites can provide. I've done, I've played around a little bit looking at large rooftops and parking lots and my own analysis is fairly limited. And space is there, but I look forward to sort of a more professional expertise analysis of that. So that's the question that comes up. And I think we need to sort of figure that out, hopefully during the time that solar bylaws is being developed, so that it can take advantage of available rooftop and parking lot space and not preclude too much other kinds of lands from potential solar development that would prevent us from reaching our, well, what we might eventually decide would be our fair share for the 2050 statewide goal. So Vasu, I just wanted to point out that Carol is now here. So can I let her in the room? Yes, please. While you're doing that, did everybody notice that California banned the sale of new gas cars? All right, that's it. New cars that going forward? I mean, it's 2035 starting in 2035. Okay, well, so. So if I may, can I do an introduction? Yes, please. Of my colleague and an inspirational friend. So Carol is the director of sustainability and energy for the city of Greenfield and was kind enough to come to our meeting tonight to give you all an overview of the project, the C-PACE project that they did, which was the first in the state, I believe. So Carol with that, I'm handing it over to you. Yeah, thanks Carol for doing this. Really appreciate it, looking forward to this. Oh, well, you say that now. I don't know how much I'm gonna wow you. It's been a while, so. But it's a pleasure to join you and thank you to Stephanie for inviting me and we did indeed have the first C-PACE project in the state and it honestly was, we couldn't have asked for a better project. And so I don't know if, Stephanie, are you able to pull up the few slides I sent or should I? Sure, I can do it if you'd like, just give me a minute and I will set it up. Okay, I really, I had done a presentation with MCAN a few months ago and that was really to encourage other communities to participate in C-PACE because there was a lot of hesitancy among municipalities. My understanding is that Amherst has already taken the vote and is already participating in C-PACE and that I'm not sure if I'm correct, but please feel free to chime in. But it was more, you're looking for information on how best to do outreach or get C-PACE to kind of be on the radar and help the people that it can help. And it's a fabulous program. So is that, I see some nodding, so I'm gonna. Yeah, that's how we get people to make use of it, yes. Okay, great. So. And also addressing how can we, does it, how does it impact the low income communities, right? I'll talk a little bit about that as well. Okay. Okay, so I'm gonna share my screen and Carol, I had to do this as a PDF. So I'm just gonna kind of scroll through it for you. All right, there's only a few slides, but it starts with a beautiful picture of we had this blighted property in our downtown for decades and it's now Class A office space. It's the offices of the DA because it's around the corner from the courthouse. But this whole section of Greenfield, this was really the kind of the last building that hadn't been revitalized and what a transformation. And so, you know, mass development was also really happy that they got to kick off with, this was really the intention of PACE was to, you know, we accomplished so many goals, not only taking a blighted property and turning it into occupied space, it puts it back on the tax rolls. They did every thing that we would wanna see, you know, putting in high efficiency systems and HVAC solar on the roof. And in the end, it was, I just put at the bottom, it was $450,000 in PACE financing to accomplish this project. So it wasn't all sunshine and roses though, being the first. I've now, my motto is like, I will do anything. I wanna be second. I just don't wanna be first in anything. And it just took a long time for all the kinks to kind of get worked out. But overall, PACE is a beautiful program that really doesn't involve the municipality all that much. Basically, in this case, the property owner came to me looking for any funding or just available assistance to make these energy upgrades because he was already committed to doing, you know, the high efficiency method of rehabbing the building. So he happened to come to me right after we had adopted the PACE legislation. So I was like, you know, there's this new program. It seems like maybe that might work for you. So again, just serendipitous that it all worked out. And so I just, again, I think you may not be interested in this, but in Greenfield, it was the previous administration was extremely eager to adopt PACE and really wanted to hop on as soon as possible because the previous mayor was very, you know, one of his platforms was to recruit more businesses and to really support the business community. And so, you know, it really is, I mean, for our world, we wanna see energy upgrades and having this financing available that typically isn't available for upgrades like this is fabulous. But it really, when it comes down to the end of the day, it's an economic development tool also and really kind of, in my mind, kind of first and foremost because there's a lot of financial pieces that go with PACE that I just kind of like will never understand like balance sheets and all of that kind of stuff. But I would just say that again with Greenfield and the previous administration that we started this whole program under, it was very much conceived of rolling this into kind of how to recruit businesses to come to Greenfield and support them. So again, as I think you're all aware, this financing is not typically available, it's tied to the property. And if I misquote a few things, there's been a lot of slight refinements as the process has continued. So I may not be up on the most recent, but I think the terms, they go up to 20 years, which is again great for property owners and because it stays with the property, it allows them to take on projects that wouldn't be economically feasible otherwise. So as I mentioned also a little bit, but I'll just touch on again, one of the reasons MCAN did the presentation that they did back in March was to just allay the fears that municipalities had all being strapped for time and resources that really once a project seems eligible for PACE and kind of has gotten through the first year, mass development takes it over from there and then they do the rest until the time of the closing, which this slide here, how did C-PACE happen? Oh, I think they call it just PACE now, it was C-PACE for commercial PACE, in other states they have residential PACE also, but I think it's now just PACE. So I think on other slides, I just mixed and matched, I guess. But so one of the things I wanted to touch on is that because again, the administration and other departments, such as in our case, economic development and Amherst, it may be other departments that interface with business owners a lot more frequently. In our experience, it's been a lot of times that the mayor would inform a business owner or a prospective property owner of PACE if it might apply to them and then they might come to me so that I could kind of feel them out. I think I might have it on the next slide, but really, I mean, I've worked with a lot of businesses on doing energy upgrades for their projects and have done that in the past position. So it's something that I'm a little more familiar with because one of the things, yeah, there it is on that slide, PACE is really, and again, I don't know if they're changing this, but thus far, it's been for projects that are larger than $250,000, which they kind of, it's somewhat fluid, but that's really where it's kind of come down because I've worked with a lot of property owners that were interested in doing upgrades and it just turned out they weren't eligible. And again, it goes back to this financial piece that the numbers need to work on in terms of cost-benefit analysis to make the financing work because they do have to work with a lender as part of PACE and that figure seems to be the, I guess the smallest number that it can typically work at. So again, in the case of the project that did happen, that was larger than $250,000. From that project, the architect was also working with another business owner that came to me and is also now pursuing PACE, another absolutely stunning project. And I can't wait till that goes public, but it's gonna be just marvelous. But in Greenfield's case, we don't have a huge market for that tier of upgrades. So most of the business owners that I've worked with, like for instance, there was a new bike shop, they were really committed to doing all clean energy upgrades. They weren't gonna get anywhere near that $250,000 threshold. So I tried to work with them for other opportunities that they could take advantage of. And then we also had another large property owner that did wanna take advantage of it, but their economics didn't work. So PACE is a fabulous tool and it's really great, but kind of what I wanted to hit on in terms of outreach is that I don't see it as a blanket answer, even though it is for, I'm sorry, I didn't catch your name, but the person that brought up the, I don't know if it's income eligible projects. I mean, nonprofits are eligible, five plus family buildings are eligible and commercial properties. So it really has to do with the projects working economically to kind of catch, get through the threshold and then working on making upgrades that meet the goals that we all wanna see going forward for climate mitigation. So I feel like I'm, I mean, I know this, you know, I'm supposed to be talking, but I feel like I've been talking too much. So I might stop here. And if anyone has questions or if you want some other information, please feel free. And Carol, first off, thank you for doing this. Really appreciate it. I do have a lot of questions, but I'll wait until the rest of the group can go. Okay, so I guess I'm going. I'm ready. So you talked about the pace for commercial multifamily properties. This is the conversation we had last meeting is whether owners of multifamily properties are increasing their rents because they're financing X dollars of money for this program. Okay. That's a great question. And I don't know the answer, but if I had to hazard a guess, I would say that mass development has been so thorough and every component of the program has been vetted. So I would think there might be some provision for that. I can't think of anything off the top of my head, but I know I've read of that in other cases, could be in other states. I just honestly don't remember. But yeah, that is a great question. Okay. And how long did it take to implement? I know you were the first, but you were not, I mean, you implemented more of these, right? What was the- We have another project that's in currently going, I honestly don't know exactly where they are in the process, but they seem to be perfect for pace and started the application process. And I mean, again, the thing that's, it's financing, but it's also with people that are doing these major renovations. So they just have a lot going on. So if you've ever built anything or worse renovated, if you could see, I'm living in between project right now, but it just takes a while. So I would say that it's gonna be, again, it depends on the project, but in the case of the two that we have, they were total rehabs of older buildings, which are very challenging projects and really comprehensive. So probably a couple of years, I would say, 18 months to two years. And I believe they say something about, it's really like six months before the closing that things kind of ramp up. Okay, Steve, and then Laura. Yeah, I guess I was interested. Were you aware of any projects that could have qualified for PACE, but chose not to? And if so, why do you know why they didn't go with it? And then how can we, particularly in Amherst, sort of make those projects more likely to go with PACE? Okay, so I actually thought you were gonna go in a different direction, but I would say, anyway, one thing that I'm not sure if you're aware, but because there were legislative issues with PACE being enacted, and that was one of the reasons the timeline took longer than anticipated, any project retroactive to when Governor Baker signed, PACE into, and I'm not gonna use the right word, I'll just say being, which I wanna say might be even 2016. Those projects are eligible retroactive, even though they've already financed and done whatever, they can apply for PACE financing and get that money back. So again, it gets into the financials of balance sheets and whatever their capital. And we did have a property owner who does fabulous projects, mostly multifamilies and rehabs, older buildings also. And I actually haven't seen him lately, but he had pursued that, so I'm hopeful. In terms of your actual question, again, I think the only thing that's kept people away from PACE that I'm aware of is just that they didn't meet the criteria in terms of the cost-benefit analysis or the financial threshold. But Carol, on that note, if they didn't meet the financial threshold, you said you still work with them so they can take advantage of something. What was that something? So again, in Greenfield, we have a lot of small businesses. So I'm gonna say most of those, so for instance, with the bike shop, they were doing a new heating system, they wanted to do solar on the roof, very small building, I wanna say 2,000 square feet or something like that. They wanted to beef up the, anyway, at the end of the day, it was probably a $50,000 project. And so there's tax breaks that they could take advantage of for the solar and some of the upgrades. Massave still works with small commercial businesses to connect them with incentives. And so I just worked with them to kind of feed them into all of those buckets to access. And the great thing is, and I wrote it, but I didn't really hit on it, but I do wanna stress that I see pace, I see my role with pace as, I mean, the two projects that are already in pace are property owners that are super committed to doing the right thing. That's what I'm gonna call it, the right thing, because we're right. But it's also, in one case, it was an opportunity to try to convince a business owner that was just looking for the cheapest solution, which was a new gas-fired HVAC system. I was able to kind of, which is I believe still eligible under pace, but I didn't have to necessarily stress that and really push them towards doing air source heat pumps. And so I really see pace being a very useful tool to convincing, especially when you're dealing with, people that are only looking at the bottom line, it really has to be kind of readily available to them and not make it difficult to kind of be like, oh, look, we can do this. And look at how much you're gonna save up front with just, and now with the incentives, I mean, for everything but gas, it's the payback's kind of instant. So anyway, I see that opportunity really being the big one with PACE is really working with the people that are already in the choir. It's great, it's fabulous, because honestly, I'm gonna just say it's hard. And it shouldn't be this hard. And I wind about that too, and I've been trying to advocate for more technical assistance for small commercial projects, large commercial projects, municipal projects, especially in Western Mass, I think we're kind of still have a dearth of contractors and experts that can really shepherd these projects. And that was one of the main obstacles with the project that did get done was just they had to go through a lot of different contractors to get it right. Lori? Yeah, I had a couple of questions. So how many total C-PACE projects has Greenfield had? Just the three you've mentioned, the attractive one and the two. Yeah, there's just a two right now that I'm aware of. Okay. And the first one was just last September. This is very still pretty new. The other projects that they've had happen are in the Boston area and it's just kind of straightforward replacing like rooftop units and not necessarily the kind of clean energy push that we'd hoped for, but still in the right direction. And I was surprised about this $250,000 minimum because I didn't actually see that. I was looking again on the website. It's not right there. That's me telling you this. And that's from them telling me that, but it's kind of this, like I said, very nebulous that it's not an actual hard cutoff. And so just they're doing some sort of cost benefit analysis presumably then. Is that what about and what goes into that? Is there any input any link anywhere that one can look up as to what goes into that analysis? Is it just a matter of, are you paying less overall for energy and everything than this financing is gonna cost? Or is it more than that? Again, there's what I understood from the beginning and then there's been several edits to that. But my understanding is that I don't think I should answer this question or I can give you my best recollection. And so initially, all of the projects that they're gonna do that they're gonna submit for financing, there's a cost benefit analysis, right? We do this all the time with all of our projects. And so that's one of the way we decide what's feasible, what's not how to finance things. So in this case, I'm not sure if it's like with, I know with for instance, the heat loan typically or even like with the solar loan that they tried to keep it so that your bill overall is staying roughly the same. But I don't think that's the driver behind pace. I think it's much more that for instance, as you may know, to replace heating systems, again in the past, I'm not exactly sure with heat pumps and all of that with the incentives now but I think those have become much more competitive but in the past, it could be 70 years that you'd have a payback on a heating system and it's 20 year financing. And again, you're still getting a lender. Greenworks lender is the one that these projects have used and they're I think very active in Connecticut. And again, like it's really interesting to hear what they have to say, most of it's above my head but so again, they deal in a different language and it's all about good financial sense. So does the lender do the cost benefit analysis? Who does the analysis? Originally my understanding and I read through all the documentation when it first came out. And again, this is back in like 2018 and since then I know there's been changes. So I definitely don't wanna mislead you and honestly mass development would probably be the best entity to talk to to get the latest and greatest on all those details. But my understanding is they worked with like and I'm paraphrasing, please don't quote me but I would call them like an energy concierge who would kind of run through all the projects make sure the paybacks worked in terms of the 20 year term on the financing. And again, the payback that because again, it's a lien that's going on the property it's a paid through a betterment assessment it stays with the property. So they have to also be, I mean, the whole lien thing was one of the biggest holdups with why PACE took so long to roll out because that was kind of very new for the state to take that role on. And so again, it's this, I just say money, can I say money stuff? I say computer stuff for anything with IP and- Right, money stuff. And then on to- Oh, Vassu, you're recording again. It's five minutes before six. Vassu turns into a robot. It's pretty fun. I love it. Yeah. I would imagine Carol that, you know, and Lori that the analysis is done by all of the parties to the transaction. I mean, the developer who's going to do this deal wants to make sure that his or her return on their investment will be able to once, you know, it makes economic sense to that developer. The lender wants to make sure that the numbers work for whatever the developer is going to do. In your case, Carol, you know, they're going to have a new office building. Well, what are the rents going to be? And am I going to be able to meet the debt service? And I know it's on taxes, but I mean, am I going to be able to meet that? And it's, I mean, other than a lot of the benefits of this project, I mean, basically it's financing. And it's financing that has to make economic sense all the way around. And the biggest thing for the lender is, are you going to be able to pay the debt? Exactly. Eventually once you do this project. I mean, that's, I've worked with mass development before on other things. I mean, that's basically what the analysis is. And it comes from everybody, everybody involved in the project. Yeah, that's exactly what I'm reading as well. I don't see the 250K limit or minimum, but it says you have to demonstrate that the energy savings from the project will have to be greater than the cost, which is a requirement, which makes sense. Okay. So that's in there too. That was my original thought that that would be the key thing, but apparently that's not the only thing. And again, I'm not the one for the nitpicky details on numbers. My goal was to help them implement the energy upgrades that we wanted to see, or help them kind of guide through that process. But anything to do with money, I was just like, see you later. Don can help them out though. Don, for the win, debt service. That's going to be my, whenever I say money stuff, now I'm going to say debt service and... Good, Jesse. I have a money question. All right, Don, are you ready? Did you have a sense? Some of the analysis that we do is sort of like, what is the best next dollar spent or what's the payback on certain? We're always looking at that. Do you have a sense of which upgrades? We're more paid back quicker, envelope, mechanicals, lighting, et cetera. Were there any big wins for that project? So it's a great question. And I'm going to, not to pass it off, but that's also stuff that's, we're quantifying that has always been a challenge. And finally, we're getting to a place where there's a ton of resources that are coming available. So I would recommend, I don't know if anybody's familiar with Built Environment Plus, and they're out in the Boston area, but they've been compiling reports showing for all different building sectors, the increase in costs for doing net zero, net zero ready. It also incorporates, I don't know if Boston's been, I don't know if it's Burdo so much, but just really getting down to the nitty gritty on the dollars and cents. And I'll just add that, I would typically say, and this is really how you make these arguments is, and I wish I had all this stuff at the top of my head, but it changes, but like with insulation. So I would say envelope is typically your best dollar spent, but that's new construction because it's so much harder and more expensive to add it later. But the other thing is like, we just did a library and we wound up getting triple glazing, which was such a big fight and struggle, but the incremental cost was very minor, which surprised all of us. And it's actually looking great if you ever get up to Greenfield, give it a few more months and it'll look like a library. But so I don't know, but you know, because I think somewhat it's gonna be project specific, especially because I don't know if you're aware that PACE is not for new construction. It's only for existing, although from what I've been reading, they're really pushing and hoping to have new construction added, which will make a big difference. Steve. I guess I had a question for our community and maybe Don or Jesse might answer this. How many projects do we have on eligible buildings that are in the 250K or greater renovation activities? Are there many of these going on each year or just a few? There's a lot of projects over that amount of money, but they're not, they're not small businesses, you know, looking, you know, they're bigger projects, obviously. That's actually, I would say that is a relatively low threshold for construction project. Yeah, I don't know if that helps. Well, it sounds like there's lots of potential projects that should be considering the C-PACE program. And then the question is, how do we connect those, the people in charge of those projects, at least introduce them to the C-PACE program so they can consider it? Yes, Stephanie. I really think utilizing the bid and the chamber are your two best pathways of getting to them. And it's as simple as, you know, they have regular meetings. It's as simple as getting on an agenda and doing a presentation. And we might even be able to get somebody from Mass Development to come out and speak with you. So I would really highly encourage, and I, you know, that's part of my role. I can help make that happen. Yeah, I would totally concur. I think that's, I didn't, I forgot about the bid, but definitely someone who's much more tapped into the, to the business community. Mass Development, Wendy O'Malley is the administrator. She's out in the Boston area, but she's fabulous. And we've been working on this since the beginning. So she is up on all of the details and can answer any of those debt service questions that come up. And can I add just one more thing? Kind of like on a different tangent, but just in terms of the municipalities role, one thing I would add, which I did put in one of the slides, but in our case, the assessor and treasurer need to be involved at the end when the Betterment Assessment comes due, when there's a closing and it needs to go on the property tax bills. And so that's the one other piece that the city or the municipality provides. They actually have to bill and collect the Betterment Assessment. And so I would just recommend they were never really informed that they had a role in pace. So when we did finally get through all of the hurdles, that came as a surprise and it was just not great timing. So I would just recommend bringing those departments in sooner rather than later so that they can be aware. And again, mass development will guide the whole process, but there are some requirements and some things that they need to do. That's the part that's about six months before the closing that you wanna have in place. Stephanie and then Jesse, Amber. So just quickly, it was really the finance director who was the one who led getting us to become a pace community. So our finance director is already knowledgeable about pace and we've met with Wendy O'Malley and he had more direct correspondence with her. I was copied and I was involved, but really he was the one that took the lead on establishing this because it was more identified as like a financial opportunity. So that was more in his domain and he was identified in the climate action plan as being a lead. So he ran out of plans. Is it at the right way then, Gromo? Yeah, so I think he's aware and if we move forward with the PACE project, he'll wanna be on board and he'll get other people on board. I'm not as concerned about them not knowing, but thank you Carol, cause that's a good heads up. Jesse? Yeah, sorry if you already said this, I was typing and maybe not listening at the same time, but it does, I know a lot of funding streams that come from state and federal places come with a lot of additional hoops and requirements that make them less appealing to people. Would you say that the kind of extraneous requirements were burdensome to the business owner, to the architect, to the builder? So again, I'm gonna say there were so many things just inherent in it being the first project. That it's really hard to tease out, but I would say that everybody was smiling by the end, all of the different parties. And like I said, the second project that we've gotten came from the architect who did the first one. So I would say that's a testament that, and again, because it was a historic building, they did go for, are there historic tax credits still? I think that's what they did. And I have a feeling those are no easy task either. So I wanna say that I do know again from working with mass development that their intention is to try to make it appealing. So, but the other thing I do always say is when you're getting free money or access to something that's really good, you've gotta do a lot of work for it. So, but yeah, that's the best I can provide. So my question's along the same lines. Does it then involve a lot of encouragement, educating along the way on your part? Not on my part. No. Nope. Because again, as with any project, new or renovations, you want to do the energy part before you're designing or at least concurrent with your design. So that's very early in the process. So once that's kind of all set, then they're getting led by, like I said, the kind of the financial entities and it really had nothing to do with energy from my perspective. So the example you gave of encouraging one of the developers to do an HVAC system based on the pumps was that was in the planning stages. Yes. And I mean, honestly, it was very frustrating because I could not find an HVAC contractor that could deal with his project. And so I know Amherst is a different animal and you have much larger things going on, but we're kind of, our projects are too big for the small contractors and too small for the big contractors. And so we kind of get stuck on a lot of things. This is one of those projects. So I honestly am consciously avoiding asking him how it's going because I spent so much time trying. I was so, and that's part of the issue that we're all facing working in this field is just there is this money, there are these incentives. We all wanna work towards the same goal and then it's nearly impossible to get there. So it really doesn't make the job easy to kind of be like, all right, you gotta do this, which is why I think it had the, it might be a different conversation had the property owner that did go through pace and not be so adamant that he was gonna do the right thing. I think he probably would have had an easier time. He definitely would have had an easier time had he not. The other thing is the gas moratorium has been our best friend. So all of our buildings are all electric. I don't think it would happen otherwise. So I think Berkshire gas every time I talk to them, I keep it, keep it going. So that, I don't know if that helps, but. And I am sorry. I was just gonna say, this all helps a lot. This is awesome. Thank you. Yeah. And every time someone says 250, I feel like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna get beat up. So I know they made it clear like that's not, it's not published for a reason. It's not a hard and fast number. I'm sharing that kind of as colleagues. So maybe I'm being too naive, but I don't want that to be the thing you leave with. It's just more basically what they've told me in the past is if I have a project that I think is good to kind of send it to them and then they'll figure it out. They do the number crunching, but that was the number that was kind of thrown out that. And I think as they get more projects, they may refine that. But so it's more just to tell you in terms of, I wouldn't go around to, and again, Amherst has a whole different structure in terms of your commercial base and nonprofits and all of that. But in our case, with all of our tiny thousand square foot mom and pop storefronts, those are not gonna be eligible. So it was just helpful for me to not waste my time and not waste my time. But you know what I mean? That's not a focus for this project. So please don't, if you tell Wendy 250, she's gonna be like, oh, did Carol talk to you? So anyway. It's done. Yeah, Carol, I really appreciate it. I mean, you just, you know, hearing that it's the architect who brought, pardon me, the second possible project to you. I think that's wonderful to throw all this on Jesse's profession to deal with, particularly with rehabilitation projects where you don't necessarily have to go to the planning board. It's really about getting together with your architect, putting together plans to rehab and the architect being somebody, especially in our community, you know, to be an instrument to encouraging developers to go down this path. I think that's a big deal. Anything else for Carol? Oh, you had something? Go ahead. Well, I was just gonna add, so Jesse, you're an architect? Is that where the? I, yes. That's wonderful. My background's in architecture. So it's near and dear to my heart. But I would just say, again, stressing the resource of Built Environment, plus it's made up of building professionals in the Boston area. And that was the only good thing about COVID was being able to finally attend their meetings remotely. And I just felt like, you know, the little kid going to the city, but it was so, back to Don's point, what was so inspiring for me, and it's been what's really made me a lot more vocal to advocate for is that we shouldn't have to constantly be, you know, pushing up against all of the project teams or they should be part of this discussion and leading these discussions. And at Built Environment, or Built Environment Plus, that's what it is. It's architects, engineers, HVAC contractors. It's the whole spectrum. And so it's just amazing to see kind of the, and I will say it seems very, in a way, geographic, that once you get out there, there's just a much more expertise because it's just being done so much more. And we're going to get there, but I beg them for help. And people have been very generous, but I think we still have a ways to go. And we'll get there. Yeah. Yeah. Be fair share of knowledge as well. Right, Steve, we were talking about fair share. Gonna be some fair share of knowledge from the Eastern Massachusetts here. They have nowhere to put a new building and they have budgets to fix all the buildings. So it's a good combination, but Greenfield's got some great firms and you've got Nessie up there. And that's a great nexus of A&E professionals. So I think it's wonderful. Yeah. Any other questions for Carol? Carol, thank you again. This was absolutely fantastic. I'm stoked. I think there's opportunity here. A question, can we reach out if we have any questions? To me? Yeah. Sure. I can say that, yeah, I don't know if Stephanie was going to chime in, but if you want to go through Stephanie or, you know, she can share my information. Yeah, we'll go through Stephanie. But if there's anything that we could do as a company for your town for climate change, let us know. This is not a local problem to solve. So keep us in mind. Thank you so much, everyone. Carol, thank you so much. And best of luck. Thank you, Carol. I'm looking forward to reading about your PACE projects. Thanks. All right, I'm leaving. There we go. Yeah, Laura. Can I say, I think we have a something that Stephanie has suggested before. We have a to-do action item, which is to try to get someone to mass development to show up at a chamber meeting. Or what was the other one? Bid. Bid. What's that stand for? Business Improvement District. Business Improvement District. OK, right. Or both. And Stephanie, you said you could take the lead on that. But if you need help contacting someone, if you want, you know, I'm happy to call around at Mass Development and figure out if you want help. So we already have the contact. I mean, I think I even have an email. So I can from Wendy O'Malley. So I can always reach out and ask. And I think it's something that I would even want to talk to Sean about. I don't know how much he'd want to get involved in sort of something like this that would basically just be kind of an educational opportunity. But Sean, I don't know the finance director. I'm sorry. I talk about him a lot now. He and I seem to our communication has increased quite a bit. So I think there's, you know, it's certainly been something that's kind of on his mind that we needed to do more promotion of. And he there's just he isn't at the time. And I, you know, my involvement can be as much as, you know, just making the connections, you know, like introducing people. And you all can sort of set it up with them. But I can sort of do the initial bringing folks together, you know, and identifying the parties that should be involved, as well as potentially, you know, the event or, you know, scheduling an event at this point now, you know, doing things over Zoom is it makes it a lot easier. And I can certainly schedule a Zoom meeting, you know, that's an easy one. And do we have contacts of all the business owners in the town? So that's something we can get through the chamber. I mean, again, you know, the chamber has all of that information, you know, the bid is the, you know, the bid is very much focused kind of on the downtown. The chamber is focused on the area, so it's not exclusive to Amherst. It's, you know, to other businesses in the region, so, or the area. So, you know, but they do have, like I said, they do have regular meetings where they share information and you can request to be on an agenda. They were having breakfast, so I don't, I'm not really sure in this sort of COVID era if they are still doing that, but I can certainly find out. Okay, thank you. Stella? Yeah, I just wanted to flag again, I thought it was really interesting because, and it kind of reminded me of stuff that Lori has been saying about trouble finding contractors that know how to do some of this stuff. And I just wanted to flag again, I'm just gonna like be a broken record about this, but it would be easier to find contractors if like 50% of the population wasn't, okay, not 50, 35% of the population wasn't like functionally excluded from the trades. Like the role of like pregnancy and parental leave in retaining people in the trades. And I do think there's like a public sector, maybe a role and maybe a town role. And I like don't know what the solution is, but like, but like I do know that there would be like more contractors if it like were possible to like be a person who bears children like in some of these jobs. So I don't really know what the solution is there, but I do wonder, I know there's different like incentives for like women owned businesses and such, but I wonder if like in thinking about some of this, if there's any way that we can like support as a town businesses that support people through that process in terms of like incentives for retaining people like contractors specifically, incentive sir, like retaining people in the trades through the process of pregnancy and childbirth. I think that would like really be huge as far as just the appeal of those jobs to another huge chunk of people. I also will say that like, I think it's really important from an equity standpoint because as all of this like money from all of these programs pours indirectly into like various contractors and there's like huge inequities gender-wise in the trades right now. Yeah, definitely something to be conscious about. I agree, I think so. Anything else on this topic? Okay, the last topic of today is around the unifying theme, Jesse. All right, unifying theme, it's 620. I think I've got it down to three sentences, a little more than I wanted. I don't have it memorized yet, but I kind of like where it's headed as potential. And again, this is just something we're all saying. Maybe we're putting in our emails, we're starting our conversations with people who could start that pace conversation. So I'm gonna read it to you. If you guys wanna respond now, great. Otherwise, I'm gonna drop it right into the minutes and we'll keep the conversation going next time. So this is what I've got. We are a citizen group appointed by the town manager to address climate change, resilience and justice on behalf of the residents of Amherst. Our near-term goal is to reduce emissions by 25% in the next two years. How can we help you do this? Think about it, mull it over. Great, but aren't they gonna laugh at us? What's that? Are they gonna laugh at us? No. Yeah, it's quite crazy. I think it's important to start breaking into the hard conversation. 25%, we got 27 months left. Yeah, I like putting a number that we need to reach while we're communicating the message. And it's actually good for us as well, right? I mean, we don't think about 20, 25. I mean, it's almost there. I like it. I think it's a conversation starter. It's like, what do you mean? What is emissions? What do you mean 25%, like how could I? What am I supposed to, you know? And I think people will have something to say and ideally if we're doing our jobs right, people will have something to say and we will listen. Do we have any way of knowing? Okay, I guess it was passed a year ago or enacted whatever accepted. Do we have any way to know how much we've added or subtracted, not in actual, you know, just ballpark? Like what's been built? What's been rehabilitated? What's been, how many more electric vehicles are there? Are we not gonna have any data on that until after? Yeah, I see your point, Andra. I think you were talking about what are some of the leading indicators, right? We have a lagging indicator in terms of assessment and GHG emissions. Do we have leading indicators? And we don't, that's a great question. We probably should. So we know how it's progressing instead of having these assessments every five years, inventory assessments every five years, we should be doing something like that. See how many electric cars on the road or something else. I don't know, yeah, it's definitely what I'm calling over. We're starting to do some of, I mean, we're trying to set some of that up now, right? So we've got the company that we're gonna work with to do the vehicle inventory and greenhouse gas emissions inventory on the vehicle transportation sector of town. At least the municipal fleet. And we have the buildings too, but those and those things are getting established so that we can then do regular updates because we're also gonna be wanting to update our greenhouse gas emissions inventory from 2017. So we're gonna be applying to have a fellow do that. So that's what one of the things we're trying to do is sort of either establish the baseline, which is the fleet vehicle inventory. And then what the ones that exist are trying to now implement some kind of regular scheduled update. So, Stephanie, we talked about the dashboard, right? As somebody, an intern coming in and creating a dashboard. Is the dashboard gonna be live-ish? It's not an, it's gonna be a little while and it's not an intern. We're actually working, the funding was to work with an established company called Kim Lundgren Associates. You can look them up, but a lot of the communities in Massachusetts like Concord, who was offered and referenced, have a dashboard that was created and developed by KLA associates. Okay, so that's gonna be more live. I mean, a monthly or whatever with- Yeah, that'll be something we'll sort of, yeah, it'll be what we, you know, how we design it and what we have the funding for. You know, it's not without a cost. There's a cost to have them updated annually and then there's a package where you can update it, but it's just then gonna be more on staff to update it. And realistically right now, staff is me. So I'm looking for the lighter version of, you know, of keeping that going. So I think we just have to talk to them and see what the packages look like. Yeah, I don't wanna put more work. I just, I think maybe the year approach is too long. I think we need, if we're having conversations with people in the community, they need to see changes in the scoreboard that's happening live and it's- Oh, no, those things happen regularly. I mean, it's just in terms of like updating the software and like reassessing, you know, doing sort of an annual kind of overhaul, if you will. But no, the whole point of it is that it's sort of regular information, it's updated. So, but you know, it's again, trying to do that in a way where it's not, this has been a frustration of mine about the website feature of, you know, the municipality and that departments are kind of left to take care of their own information. And it's hard because it's really time consuming, especially if it's not the primary job that you do. You know, it takes a lot. And so I think we wanna be realistic about the kind of information we're gonna be providing and the frequency with which we need to update it. You know, it might be a bi-weekly thing versus a weekly thing or a day, it certainly won't be daily, I can tell you that much. And when does that gonna happen 70 approximately at the time? I don't know exactly. It's all, that's tied with the ARPA funding. So, you know, there's several things that are, I talked to Sean earlier today and we literally just threw out like five or six things that are concurrently happening right now. It's a lot. So, the two things that are kind of really my focus for that are coming up sooner than later are the fellow for the, the fellow for the greenhouse gas emissions inventory and then also the building sector inventory. So, the vehicle inventory and the building inventory, that's just the municipality and what's really gonna make the difference is out in the community. So, there are excise taxes on cars. We should know what kind of cars are being taxed in embers. Yep. That's data that could be put into dashboard and updated, you know, that does not have to be updated that often every two months. The company that we're working with and again, we haven't really sat down to sort of look at exactly what we would do yet but the company that we're working with does have some sort of software that updates and even if it's not specifically about the town's inventory it may have some vehicle information that it can sort of populate to make, you know, some of that information available. So, again, I just have to sort of me and, you know, and Sean primarily are the ones who are kind of working with them. So, I'm gonna be a broken record about this. It sounds like if we had more sustainability staff we could go faster. I 150, 200% agree. I just, because the town just instituted two new departments for DEI and Crest, I just don't think it's gonna happen for a little bit. I don't think it's, I wouldn't say that it's like not something the town is thinking about sort of down the road, but I think right now with budgets as they are and just bringing on like two whole new departments with significant staffing I just don't think it's gonna happen even in the next couple of budget cycles. I think it's gonna be a little ways down the road. So I understand that and our job is to push. Go for it. You go right ahead. I'm just, you know, I just know that the conversations I've had internally that's kind of, you know, that's basically what I've been told but, you know, other things that I've been told seem to move forward after a while and after enough convincing. So, you know, keep, I encourage you to keep doing what you're doing. Yeah, I agree with Andrew. I mean, if Stephanie, I mean, you have a lot on your plate and if you know you're the bottleneck, right? I mean, you're, you're taking on a lot. I think having an extra person would actually help help you and help us as well. Because we have to be, I think we're, I wouldn't say being reactive, but we're slow. Our progress is slow. We got to start thinking about how we can push our agenda in the cart. So, Andrew, I know that there was a memo or something that was sent out to the town manager before. If you can forward it to me, please. And I want to help Stephanie, but I also want to make sure that, I mean, we're all in this together. I think we're just, we, well, for one, we're doing different things, right? And so a focused agenda would help. And then helping Stephanie and then having Stephanie help the town and the communities. And how can we push that quick enough to meet our 2025 goal, right? That's what we need to drive for. So yeah, if you can send me the draft and I can, I know Stephanie, it might be hard to actually talk to the town manager in person, but I mean, we got to do what we have to. So if that means pushing, emailing multiple emails. Well, it's a town manager and the town council. It's not just the town manager. Okay. So I would say, you know, whatever you wrote before, you, yeah, I, you want to send that along again. Yeah, I think one thing that might be interesting is actually trying to tell a story, right? Is, is what are you trying? What are you currently doing, Stephanie? And what are the things in the carp that we can do that we're not doing that we can all possibly draft. And that would require X number of resources or just one resource. Maybe. Us as ecac thinking about that is what are all the actions that we want to drive. And if we just push funnel everything to Stephanie, what is it going to look like? And if we have an extra person, what could it look like? Yeah. And, and, you know, I will say that. In terms of the work, you know, I've always said, and I've been saying this from the very beginning, you know, this is a collaborative, like you just mentioned, a collaborative effort. We're working together. We have, you know, our goals are the same goals. So I think the, the benefit of having you all is that. Mostly what I work with is the municipal side, you know, the municipal stock inventory. And as Andra pointed out, it's really. And again, something I've said is that. You know, it's a broader community that we need to reach out to, to make a change and to have some, you know, impact on if we're going to meet our goals. And that's the opportunity that's often harder for me, ironically, to sort of get to is, you know, and it also has to do with, you know, policy. Your conversation earlier. You know, you're talking about fossil fuel free. That's a conversation that you all can lead, you know, and should lead quite honestly. And it's one that makes a difference because it will. It will go beyond just the municipal side. It's like talking about all building construction in the, in the community. And you know, and if it's, you know, if it's a bottleneck at the state level there for that kind of thing, you know, there's collaboration with other communities to try to, to push it forward, which has been, you know, that's what those 10 communities are doing. You know, that's what the BEA effort was, it was primarily about. So I'd encourage you to do more of, of that kind of advocacy and work to the policy development is huge. Yeah, you know, I know we're out of time, but we were talking about the unifying theme. We're talking about, you know, we're talking about 25% by 2025, but if there's a question is what, where are we at now from 2016 level, we don't have an answer. So I think that dashboard is going to be very important that we use data to drive what we want to do, but also to be able to communicate through the community. On where we're at. So. Yeah. Totally agree. And I really agree. And that's the way we approach all of our, at a building scale. Yeah. So the first thing we do is we get a baseline, how much. Is there, but I. In this case, I also think there's a, a more. A less divinable aspect of this is just to be like, wait, what a quarter 25% like. Just that sort of gut feeling kind of the way Steve talks about like just wrapping our heads around just how much solar our share is. Like just how much, what does it even look like to do, to have 25% less like that conversation. Like just starting to have it as a, as a sort of visceral somatic conversation of what it means. To take something on that's massive and daunting. And that's just the goal for two years from now. So I think it's, it's like a two-part thing. It's like, yeah, some real benchmarking, some real, what does it really look like? And I don't want to wait for that. I don't want to wait for that number because I think it's an emotional conversation as well. It's a lifestyle. You know, it's, it's really about. Lifestyle choices and decisions. You know, priorities and priorities. I keep saying it's a moral imperative really, you know, it's an, it's our entire economy. It's our culture. It's the way it's our mindset. It's the way we think. And what we believe is true or not true, and it is hard. I just want to say, I think we have till the end of 2025. So really we could say three years. I mean, we want to do it at the beginning of 2025, but yeah. I think we could do it. I think we do it at the end. I think the end of 2025 is a more realistic goal and the, you know, Vasu to your question about things I'm working on, you know, the. All of the stuff that was put into the ARPA funding was all. You know, things conversations we had had, I said this before, but it's conversations I have had with the ECAC, with what's in the carp, and it was looking at. Each of those. Recommendations for ARPA funding. Covered each of the sectors. That were in the carp. So there's something representing each sector. And I think that's really important. And with the 2025 goals in mind. So. I mean, I really think the heat pump thing is going to be a big piece that. You know, is important because that will. That is one of the few things that I feel like I'm able to work on with you all that will have community. Wide impact. So I really hope we can do a lot with that. And I'm, I'm hoping that, you know, we'll be able to do that. I'm hoping that the implementation of the CCA. Will pair well. I hope. Also. As it turns out. 2025, 25%. Check out page 25 of the carp. That's where it's all summed up. Was that intentional? I'm going to ask you about that one. Well done, Jesse. That'll be on Laura. Yeah, that's true. All right. For the next meeting. Oh, Lori. You had something. No, no, no, no. I was just. Keep going. Okay. So for our next meeting agenda items. We have the strategy execution that we want to talk about. Did we have anything on CPACE? Don that do you want to connect with bid and chamber. Before we meet. Next week. Yeah. Before we meet. Next week. Yeah, I can reach out to both bid and chamber before we meet. So. And at least. Have an introductory conversation with them about how we might go about. Advertising, encouraging. Soliciting. You know, developers. You know, those are the things that we need to include. In multi-family. Residential and commercial properties. Who are doing rehabilitations or. You know, other work on their properties. To consider that. You know, to consider. You know, moving everything toward. And letting them know that there is this program that can help with financing for those sorts of projects. But I do think what needs to happen there is we need to get a mass development person. Correct. I was just going to say that as well. Yeah. I was going to say to just sort of throwing this out there because it came into my head is, you know, all these projects have to go through. Yeah. The inspections department, you know, people have to come in and apply for permits. So having something available, like if we just have a write up that when they come in, we can have them up front and we can ask. The front staff because all the information gets, you know, comes funneling through them. Just say hand them a hand the hand this piece of paper to give or send them this email if they're doing a rehab project. This should go to them. You know, doing something like that is a really easy-ish thing to do. So it just needs to be developed. So, but maybe having, you know, having that in addition to all these other things we're talking about. I just wanted to throw it down. I guess maybe for next week it is more about thinking about what the ideal process should be or the future process should be and then communicating to the rest of us for feedback and then. Although apropos of what Stephanie said, and I don't have a lot of experience in this, but my experience is unlike projects that need to go to the zoning board or the planning board. If it's simply a rehab project, most of the time when the applications for a building permit are made the plans are already prepared and submitted, which would include all of the things we're talking about. Which is why I came back and I was only being a little bit facetious with the architects or whatever professionals are working with the developer to put together the development. I mean, because it's harder to go back to the drawing board if you're an architect or an engineer who's put together a set of construction drawings to get a building permit to then go back and change systems in those drawings wouldn't you agree Jesse. Yeah, it's going to start with the owner and developer whoever's paying for the project is going to initiate that and they've already decided what they want to do by the time the architect gets involved the architect can help we can push back. But oftentimes that ship is sailed so I think the bid in the chamber. That's that's the good point of entry and I think be great to if there if there is a process and a leverage point, as we say, I think they would have great input for that. So I do think that even just informally discussing it with them saying we're trying to figure out how to. I think they'll have great input. We're running pretty late here. I sort of have to go can we wrap this up. Yeah, I think that's fine. I just we're talking about the next agenda item is that anything else that we want to cover. Okay. All right. That's all we have. Thank you everybody. Thanks for staying over. Bye.