 Hello, hello beautiful people, beautiful humans, thank you for being here. This is our attempt number two of this event, so we appreciate you taking the patience to come out in the rain, love it. So we want to first do a quick land acknowledgement and acknowledge that we are occupying the unceded ancestral homeland of the Ramya Tushaloni peoples who are the original inhabitants of the San Francisco Peninsula. We recognize that we benefit from living and working on their traditional homeland and as uninvited guests, we affirm their sovereign rights as first peoples. We also wish to pay our respects to the ancestors, elders, and relatives of the Ramya Tushaloni community who are still here. With that, I encourage you to check out Segorte Land Trust, all women led indigenous group working for land back movement out of Oakland. They're amazing. Check them out with your dollar signs. They're great. I also want to acknowledge our unseen help, not so unseen, but our media services and our custodial services, the people who make everything happen in this place. We have books available in the back, make a great gift. You can get them now. You can get them after the event, which will end at seven and then we'll all make our way to the lobby for book signing and then seven thirty, head to mother bar, sixteenth in Valencia where we'll have an after party so that we just keep on going. So meet us there. All right. So y'all ready for some tender, joyous, ninety seventy San Francisco lesbians? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. We are here to celebrate Chloe Sherman's new book, Renegades, a captivating exploration of queer culture that shaped ninety San Francisco. Sherman will be in conversation tonight with Christina Moretta and she is the library's photo archivist and archivist while pursuing her BFA in photography at the San Francisco Art Institute in the nineties, Sherman began documenting a generation of young self-identified queers in the mission district. Rent was affordable and gay youth outcast artists and free spirits migrated to San Francisco to find one another bars, clubs, tattoo shops, galleries, cafes, bookstores and women owned businesses proliferated and a new wave of feminism embraced gender-bending and butch femme culture. Sherman was there to capture it all on thirty five millimeter film. Her photographs from this vibrant era connect current and future generations to the pulse of the city during a unique time when differences and homecomings were unapologetically celebrated. Sherman, a New York City native holds a BFA in photography from the San Francisco Art Institute. After receiving a merit scholarship for her photographic work, she had the honor of being selected as a participant of the Eddie Adams Barnstorm Workshop in upstate New York. Here she worked alongside National Geographic and AP photographers and this experience became a launch pad for her career. Her work has been seen and exhibited in the Shlomer House Gallery in San Francisco and internationally. She's been published in books Nothing but the Girl, Research, Angry Women in Rock and Out in America as well as being featured in Rolling Stone, Interview and The Advocate, plus many more. Without further ado, Chloe Sherman and Christina Moreta. And this is so exciting, Chloe. Yes, thanks everybody for coming. Especially since we planned this in October. So thanks for coming for the redo. And so I'm going to ask Chloe a few questions. And so I jump right in and get going. So the 1990s were a transformative period for both the city and the artistic community. How did San Francisco's unique cultural landscape influence your photographic style and subject matter during that decade? So and I'm going to somewhat read just to keep things a little bit moving along so I don't ramble too much since we've discussed a few of these before. But so San Francisco was and always has been still is a gay mecca. It's really where you gravitated to, migrated to the city to find one another. And this was before the 90s were before the internet, before social media, before cell phones, so you had to show up. You had to get somewhere to find people. And it was a unique time, particularly for dykes in the city. The mission became a real kind of queer bohemia. There was a time when women owned businesses began to flourish and people were there was enough community at the time growing from the early 90s on to completely support businesses that were opening. The Red Doors Bearded Lady Cafe, eventually the Lexington Black and Blue Tattoo, all these women owned businesses that were open, supported, visited by, kept alive primarily from this enormous queer community that was growing in the city. It was, I think the 90s were a particularly radical time. It was a time when everything was just a little bit extra. It was very photogenic and hard not to wanna take photos of the fashion and manic panicked hair and tattoos. And it was an extremely colorful time. And there was a ton going on. I mean every night of the week was a club, an event, a reading, a show, a band, you know, it was hoppin'. It was, there was plenty to do. And so one thing that may, that was part of what drew me to the city, but also the way it changed my photographic style is I had been shooting black and white, as you can see this image on the screen right now in a few of my earlier images, and it began to be apparent to me that I was really missing out on a lot by shooting black and white. I was missing half of the subject as in here. The reds were vibrant, people were flamboyant. So that was huge to switch to color. And once I switched, I never went back. I mean there were moments where I'll do black and white. But yeah, it was, you know, a amazing time. And then who are some of your influences maybe during that time, like in regards to other photographers or artists? So Nan Golden, of course. I was in art school shortly after arriving, soon after arriving. So really traditional photographers, Dorothea Lang, street photographers, documentary photographers, Eugene Richards, Cathy Opie was shooting at the time. She was living in LA and back and forth to San Francisco, and she was a really positive influence and role model. And I think, you know, I was also influenced by the aesthetic of the city, the grittiness of the city, the backdrop of San Francisco, as we know it. And art school, of course, exposes you to a wide variety of art, music, and everything going on. I mean, there was like music, art, DIY events, and anything you could imagine people would attempt to do. So lots of influences. I think just the social structure of our community and the historical, you know, traditional educational exposure to art that I was involved, immersed in at the time. Renegades is filled with like stunning visual narratives, as we can see here. Can you tell us about your process for curating and selecting for the book? Yeah, so the book, the book was kind of fast and furious. I was committed to making an intimate experience. So a book that you could hold in your hand that you could feel you could become immersed in and also, you know, that you could look through in one sitting, that you could feel like you, you know, went on a journey into this era. And it was challenging because I have thousands of negatives. And so over the maybe year and a half since beginning to post these images, I had. I worked with curators, gallerists, got lots of feedback. I had a solo show at Schloemer House Gallery in the Castro. Shortly after that, I had a solo show in Berlin. So I was able to bounce ideas off talented, you know, experienced people, get a lot of feedback. And basically up until midnight, the due date for the publisher, we were, I was moving things around and adding images and taking away images and finally sent them the final decision, you know, the final layout. And that was that. Yeah. Yeah. So working myself at working as a photo archivist, I feel that I'm more of like a memory keeper. So I was thinking about as you went through your selection, going through the negatives. Are there things that maybe you were like, oh, in hindsight, you wish you would have photographed or are there when you were going through your negatives, were there things that you had completely forgotten about? That's that's a good question. Definitely things I had completely forgotten about. I mean, I was looking through images like, wow, was I can't believe I was there? Like I obviously took these photos, but there were, you know, Leslie's Chinese New Year party. There was a Gemini birthday dinner and Slade's wedding. I don't even remember. I was the photographer and I'm like, why is that such a distant memory, if at all? But I don't have no regrets about missing out on things. It was a span of a decade. So, you know, it was a long time. It was there was I mean, I would say life was tragic, beautiful, exciting, dramatic, the gamut. And so a lot of my images are less about an event or a specific moment and more about an interaction or a poetic kind of peripheral glimpse of a moment or an, you know, a dynamic between people. And often I find myself being drawn to and liking those moments rather than, you know, the big stage show or the. Actual, you know, a band that was playing, in fact, often the only reason I knew the location of something was I had made a note at the top of my negative strip holder. But you would not otherwise know, OK, this is. You know, the some particular performance. So I think your book, Renegades, really captures the essence of 1990s San Francisco beautifully, especially since I live through it, too. So do you have a specific maybe moment or experience that you'd like to share that kind of epitomizes the creative spirit of that era? So the 90s were I I would say so. A specific moment was coming to the city and. Walking into the bearded Lady Cafe at age 21 in 1990 and moving back the following weekend. Because I was I walked in, I was like, I have arrived. This is it. This is where I want to be. There's no other place. You know, I never expected to be so. Moved and inspired and, you know, it was gritty and urban and there were butchers and it was there was art on the walls. And it was it felt communal. Like there was a strong sense of kind of come one, come all. And, you know, for as far as specific moments, I think there was so much going on. There was the fact that the bearded lady open, the fact that the Lexington open, the moments that we that felt quintessential were having a pop up slideshow at an empty parking lot or, you know, throwing Polaroids on the wall in the Lexington bathroom and calling it our art show. And, you know, we're like this playing music outside the Lexington instead of going it just this. It was kind of a constant pulse of of activity and excitement. And, you know, if you can do it, do it kind of feeling. It just there was like a lack of self consciousness. The only people filming were filmmakers and me shooting photos. It wasn't we weren't really on display. We were kind of just creating what we wanted for ourselves and what we wanted the kind of community we wanted to make and live in. And that felt very San Francisco. I mean, San Francisco's, I think, notoriously through history, welcoming and embracing of anything. And we certainly was anything goes, it felt like. That's kind of and that's for a lot of these photos, I would say just from a through a mainstream perspective that a lot of the individuals are more on the, like, San Francisco fringe, if you will. Yeah. So, like, how did you make a connection with, you know, the subjects in your photographs and kind of get that intimate shot? So. I came to San Francisco partly when I came to San Francisco and realized how, like, scrappy and gritty it was. I was I I've always been drawn to the underdog. So I was like, this is cool. I this now this I like, like I hit, you know, I traveled around a bit, but I got here and I was like, this is exactly what I relate to. And so basically people, it became my community and my family and my immediately immediate surroundings and and daily life. And so. Documenting and, you know, witnessing the beauty and uniqueness of this group of people was felt natural and comfortable and possibly because I was a part of it was easy for me to be in the background or foreground without being intimidating to people. It also wasn't a time of, you know, we didn't have phones. We weren't snapping pictures or posting pictures. So as I took photographs, I had to run to the lab, print it, make a copy, show people many of these. If I as I post them, people in them are like, oh, my God, I've never seen this. This is amazing. You know, seeing their baby selves, basically. But there was no other way if I didn't print it. To see it. So and it was. You know, a theatrical, performative community. So I don't people were not shying away from getting their photos taken. You know, it was like if anything jumping into the frame, it wasn't it wasn't. You know, I didn't feel like I was tiptoeing around or. People weren't concerned about where their image would show up. So with everyone in the photos, your friends or I I know everyone in the photos. Yeah, OK, so friends or family. Some are more like a few people I've had to reach out and say. What's their name or who was this? But like one one to five degrees removed. Which sounds about right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, OK, now I'm going to switch my lenses, if you will. So as Anissa mentioned, I work as an archivist. So here we have the San Francisco History Archives, and we also have an extensive queer archive collection upstairs on the sixth floor for you guys. So I'm going to ask from a more queer history perspective. I noticed many photos in the series center around butch and fem identities. What do you feel has changed about the butch fem culture over the past three decades? So I would say. From my honestly limited experience. So it's interesting. So as a photographer. Putting out a book that has become a historical access point. You know, this is. People are referring back to this to discuss an entire era and a community. I'm finding myself having to come up with like social political, you know, inquiries and like researching and and trying to understand what has changed and what is different. One really huge thing is. You know, the butch fem kind of aesthetic and identity was really in the forefront during the nineties, possibly for the first time, historically, not for the first time ever, but in a kind of proud wear it on your sleeve like an apologetic way. But there was we were inventing language. There was not. Do you prefer he what are your pronouns? Transitioning was not easily accessible or available until late nineties from my experience here and then into the 2000s. But so we were kind of inventing this. We would begin to call somebody he if it seemed obvious or they preferred it. You know, we were like playing with pronouns. But nobody else was. No one society wasn't not even beyond our pretty scrappy mission type community where people interested in that as far as I knew. Which very much differentiated us from LA. From possibly New York, from a lot of queer communities that San Francisco was kind of doing this new thing in a big way. And so since then, most the people, I would say three quarters of the butchers in my photos have since transitioned. To be male identified, male pronouns. Or non binary or, you know, the gamut. But that it, you know, it was. The beginning of a very different world that we live in now and granted, there's politics and and all kinds of, you know, damning, minimizing, you know, legislation being made. But still, you can walk, you can fill out a medical form, you can walk into a public bathroom. At least in larger city, in city, urban environments and see gender neutral bathrooms and see on a form what's your preferred pronoun. So that that's changed. That's a really big difference to have begun to kind of make that both accepted to some degree, have language for, you know, gender fluidity and variation. And kind of related now that your books published and the body of work is there, how do you think that this contributes to the popular representation of the queer identity and queer aesthetic of that time? How do I think the book contributes? Yeah. Again, it's become a historical reference point. So it in an era where it took artists, filmmakers, photographers, writers to be actively engaged in documenting the time without books by Linnie Breedlove, Michelle T. I mean, before that Leslie Feinberg, Stone Butch Blues. Without that, we didn't have the casual cell phone images or, you know, news bites that we have now had to be active and deliberate. And so. Witnessing this era in a joyous and positive way, or almost at all, is almost impossible visually other than, you know, paintings by Cooper or literature by people from the top, you know, living through Anna Joy, Linnie, Michelle T. Again, just people like coming, coming up in the city. So I think, I think that has, like, referencing back to see that we had like this, we lived back then, like there were queers then, there were people doing new, brave, like groundbreaking, making groundbreaking choices and doing brave actions and kind of going against, swimming upstream and going against, you know, the mainstream and the norm is fascinating for people to see. Like the beginning of what we know today as it is throughout history. I mean, in the 90s, we looked back on 60s, 70s, 80s and both learned from as young dykes and queers, rebelled from, rebelled from, embraced, mimicked. You know, you always referenced your generations before and also use it as a launching point to go to new places that maybe are more appropriate of the time. I will say that I did play with your book a little bit in the sense of I had a queer aesthetic, queer art class from California College of the Arts come visit the archives and then I took, we have a whole lesbian pulp paperback collection with some beautiful imagery from the 1950s and then some 1940s lesbian snapshots and then your book. And so it was just kind of fun to see that fluidity, if you will, of just the imagery and just how the aesthetic is somewhat similar and different at the same time. Yeah. So just how I have fun at work. And it is true. I mean, the beauty, so when I, you know, there's websites now, it's hard to access like it takes an archive or somebody actively collecting and pooling together images to be able to review, you know, compare decades, you know, Della Grace had some fantastic images from her book Love Bites or their book Love Bites in mostly London and a little bit San Francisco. And what was so unique about that is the location, the documentation of something otherwise not seen. You know, if you weren't there, if you weren't living it, you didn't see it. And so to capture that and then create a book, which was one of the things that got me to San Francisco or thinking, what's the San Francisco about that, you know, fateful weekend I came down to visit. I had seen Dell's book and something under one of the titles of the photos said, you know, a bar long gone in San Francisco. And part of it was that they made a book which allowed it to circulate through libraries, a couple of little bookstores that might have stocked it. And again, before Internet, that was how you stumbled across things. So a lot of the, you know, 20s, 40s, 50s gorgeous imagery, which are usually snapshots, like an individual shot here or there. They are amazing to cross reference. And yes, the aesthetic, there's a strong aesthetic vein through the generations and decades. And, you know, maybe the next book is is pooling pooling together like your CCAC assignment. So people can see the thread. Yeah. Yes. And now I'll switch to kind of like maybe a San Francisco history lens because San Francisco is such a main feature of your book. And it showcases all the physical spaces, not all of them, but some unique physical spaces of San Francisco, specific neighborhoods. What would you say? How did you work in the cityscape into your photography? Well, San Francisco is tiny. It's what, like seven miles by seven miles or something. And so, you know, the prominently queer neighborhoods, Castro, Soma, Mission and give or take, all walkable, close, kind of budding up against each other. And so, you know, I like to, I think back on the decade and living when it was just so densely populated with, you know, community and it felt kind of like, like I compare it now to the college campus or Mr. Roger Snaper. You could literally, especially on Valencia Street, walk out your door and you're like waving to people as you make your way to any, to DeBose Park, to Dolores Park, DeBose Park, Bearded Lady, you know, anything, the Leather Tongue video, everything, cafes, you name it. And so, the proximity allowed for just kind of this like easy thread through the neighborhood, you know, easy walk and crossover of neighborhoods. So, again, a lot of images are repeats at the Lexington or the Bearded Lady, but honestly, it was just that there was a constant, you know, it was you could walk out of your house and show up anywhere and pretty much connect with her, run into a dozen people. And, but prominently featured are the Queerer neighborhoods. At least back then, we rarely went to the marina that was kind of like a, who goes to the marina? Like, where even is it? Let alone like, North Beach was kind of like, you might get into some trouble there. There, you know, it was a little like, there's gotta be a guy that's not gonna like you there, you know, in North Beach. Like, there was still issues, even in San Francisco. So, our kind of stomping grounds and safe spaces were these and that reveal themselves in the image, in the photos, you know, were the Queerer neighborhoods, which as we know, of course, Castro Mission, South Market. And we just, we chatted about how this contributes, Renegades contributes to Queer history, but how do you think this, your storytelling here contributes to San Francisco history? I mean, I think we help to make up San Francisco history. I mean, it's the Queers decade after decade, Gays coming to the Castro and the Dykes coming to the Mission, and you know, kids today. Like, we are the fabric of the city. San Francisco's where like, you kind of go to burn in hell if you're from like, the religious right from the rest of the country. So like, the minute you step foot here, you're making, you're like creating what we are. You know, you're creating this amazing place that so many people don't want to get near, which is awesome because the people here who want to be here are, you know, it's like, even today, the people that are here, I feel the most trusting around, safe around. I mean, if you're in San Francisco, you've made a choice to be in San Francisco, immersed in a diverse community of cultures, genders, you know, religions, diverse in every way. And so, I think we're an intrinsic part of our city's history. Yeah, and for me when just looking at the book and the photos, I'm just like, it feels like home to me. So, and I think that's part of that, you're making of the history that way. So moving to a different lens of you and shining bright, you've received an amazing amount of positive press about the book and your photographs. What's been surprising about this? Wow, a lot has been surprising. I mean, the book has, it's blown me away how much people have expressed that they wanted or needed the book that, and they didn't know it. Like it came out and as people are looking, a lot of reminiscing, a lot of, I've gotten, I mean, even the greater press, I mean, the press that the book has received has really been surprising and I mean, welcome, but shocking, like the New York Times and the New Yorker, beautiful, beautiful article in the New Yorker. And I think part of it is we don't have a huge cannon of, you know, queer history accessible. I mean, there's bits and pieces, but especially visual history to completion, like create a book or something available for people to really immerse themselves in an era. And so that alone, I think, has been fascinating to the world, like, oh wow, there's, look at how people live, like there was a whole community that lived through that we never knew about and I think that's fascinating to people. And then of course for us to have a reference point and something that's positive and joyous to be able to call our own and call, like refer back to as our own history and claim as, you know, exciting and find pride in, has been important to people. And what's been most moving for me with this book is how many people have young people, people from around the world have reached out to me, messaged me, emailed me saying, this has, you know, really validated my identity across generations. It's really been moving, validated my identity or been, you know, like an amazing memory of my time in San Francisco or my time wanting to go to San Francisco during the 90s or coming out in the 90s in Ohio or, you know, just every, like a gamut of stories that I've heard from people that somehow looking at the book and reflecting on themselves and on history and on community has had an effect, a positive effect on them. And that's been amazing to hear. And I never would have expected, you know, when I first was like, these seem very narrative. Let's, you know, see if I can publish this. First I was thinking of self-publishing and then I was lucky enough to get an offer and turn it around very quickly. But I would not have pictured the results. So, yeah. I first saw your work at Schlaumer House Gallery last June where it was kind of like a reunion-esque party. Were you already working on the book or like the idea of the book then? I was not. In fact, I had just, it felt like months before during COVID, put these images, started to sort through images and put them on Instagram. And Stefan and Brandon from Schlaumer House emailed saying, do you want a solo show? And I was like, ah, God, I really, this is so much work. It was just piles and piles of negatives. I hadn't really begun to print anything yet. And these are 35 millimeter film, like stacks and stacks of 35 millimeter film, which meant finding a lab that can drum scan, working with drum scans on a computer for hours on end for each image to try to get the color and the quality to how I want the print to be. And so I said, sure, yeah. Within, like I hesitated for a minute, like this is insane, I can't believe I'm agreeing to this. And I did, and that was that. Like I just, so within six months or whatever it was, just started sorting through everything and editing and pulling and working with Light Source Lab in like Outer Mission and got a show together. And so I was not thinking about a book at the time. As the process of the show rolled out and I was kind of posting final images and certainly by that incredible reunion opening night was when the idea of a book started jelling. People were like, do a book. Why wouldn't you do a book? This is, there's so many images. Just put it, you know, like people wanna see them, people wanna remember them. And so I started working on a book at that point. So opening night, no. I was like, who knows if I'll ever do anything with these again, this, like it just kind of opened the floodgates in the end is what happened. Right, right, you're right. And then speaking of film, it's interesting, because this is like basically to me, like the 1990s is like last call to like film photography because by the early 2000s, it was digital. Like so how was your transition? And then into digital? Yeah. Horrible. It sucked. So digital at the beginning was awful. It was ugly, it was flat, it was pixelated, it was like you would take a digital image with a crappy camera and no one really knew what to do with it then. The printers weren't very good. I had, you know, tons of cameras, one after the other, trying things. Most the images from that initial, those early years, you know, I'm trying to salvage because that's how bad they were. They were just like low res, you know, we didn't have, it was just terrible. So, and simultaneously a lot of the labs were closing, film was harder to get, all South of Market used to be, you know, there was a huge advertising industry here of shooting Macy's and everything. It was to, you know, photographers were shooting and running to the labs for quick turnarounds and running slides back to their clients. All those labs that were just exploding with business just started closing their doors. They were just, people were going to digital and magazines and not, slowly online eventually and not print magazines and catalogs. So it was this no man's land gray area of, there's no labs, films expensive and weird and hard to get and what do I do with it now anyway? Digital photography kind of sucks. So there was a lull. I definitely had a lull and it wasn't, now I have a good digital setup and I'm happy with what I have, but it took a long time. And for me, it was another, it fell into the era of dot com, kind of shift in the city's landscape socially. People were being pushed out, people were being bought out of their flats and apartments. A lot of people are getting offers to, you know, we'll buy you out whatever it takes. We want to charge like quadruple after we, you know, remodel it or something. So people were leaving and both financial reasons, people were aging into a time of life that they were shifting into different careers, maybe families, going to New York LA, the Burbs, whatever. Lots of people, a handful of people stayed, but there was kind of this, it was a social shift at least in my immediate community, which met digital, which met, so everything kind of felt like it was coming to a close on that, on this story. So all the images in the book are, they ended up being scanned from your negatives. Yes. Gotcha. All scanned with, I would say, to get to the final book image, it was each image took probably 10 hours of work or so, just to be able to produce like the color, the quality, everything that I wanted it to look like. It was a lot of work. Worth it, but it was definitely a transition. Very special. Okay, now I'm gonna put my librarian lens on. We started out the program, as you all know, with an amazing set list that was curated by DJ Campbell to go with the book. So the librarian and me would like to know what would be your companion book list to Renegades? Companion book list. So I mentioned a few already. I would say for sure, Lynn Breedlove's Godspeed, without a doubt, that's a really fantastic book if you can find it anymore. I'm sure you have it here. Specifically about the era and amazing. And Michelle Tease Valencia. I love, you know, back then I was reading Leslie Feinberg's Stonebook Blues. That's a must read. I would say even, I haven't read it, but Elliot, it's a new memoir. It's a new memoir. Elliot Page, yeah, Elliot Page's new memoir. Haven't read it, but it could be. What else? Cooper Lee Bombardier has a book, Pass With Care. Anna Joy has a number of books just because she's Anna Joy. If you can understand her spectacular writing, read it. She's incredible. Anyone that came up from that specific time is appropriate because it's from an experience of this era and this kind of childhood as it were, like formative years. Yeah. That's perfect. Only because now we got to talk about all my favorite subjects, photography and books in San Francisco. So thank you, Chloe. Thank you. I think we're gonna open it up to Q&A, but let's do a quick little yay for Chloe. And Anissa, you have the mic, right? Don't be shy. You have to talk right into it. I guess my question for you is like, since you've lived in the Bay Area for so long because I heard New York and LA, but I guess since you've lived in the Bay Area for so long and I heard Dorothea Lange, did you get any tips or any help with the book from people like Danny Nicoletta, for example? Cause I know I feel like I'm in my realm here cause I'm a gay ally, but I'm an 80s and 90s kid and I know Nicoletta was Harvey Milk's old photographer when he was a supervisor cause he would hang out in his camera shop and I guess he took a bunch of pictures of him when he was a, before and after he was a supervisor but did you get any help or tips with the book from people like that around here? Nice question, San Francisco, you know, contact. So really the book, the book, I reached out to as many people that I could immediately access quickly which the book had a very quick turnaround. It was trying to be published and released for opening, for the opening night of a solo show in Berlin which happened extremely fast. So I didn't have any, I didn't work with him. I would say in general, a lot of my, you know, some of these negatives were processed and initial prints were made at Harvey Milk Community Center which was, I don't know if it still exists as it used to. It had a dark room, it had a photo lab, it had, there was a couple of guys there. I don't remember their names now who were always there, helpful, giving feedback, you know, like letting you print and it was, I think you just sign up for a couple of hours there and I spent a lot of time there. Free, there was another lab in South of Market that was a free lab. There was like, San Francisco was really, you know, traditionally supportive of the arts and had a lot of community access points to make work, talk with people in studios. You know, you could, again, now it's digital so I do a lot of stuff in my office alone or I'll go to a lab and work with, a couple of people I might be working with helping me with printing and Photoshop but it used to be that you show up and you're like side by side printing with people and hanging it on a group wall and looking at other people's work and kind of helping edit with strangers really who are also happened to have been there during the couple of hours you were there in the afternoon at this whatever lab you chose to go to so I did reach out, I had worked with, I don't know if you're familiar with Alex Webb's work, he's one of my favorite photographers, street photographer, him and his wife run workshops and I have a lot of books, really gorgeous books that they've made through Aputure and Radius books so I ran some ideas through them for some, you know, editing feedback but yeah, there's certainly a lot of exquisite San Francisco photographers that I've crossed paths with in different, for different reasons over the years but no I didn't specifically on this book work with anybody. Thank you for the beautiful book and one thing that really struck me when I went through it, this could just be my lack of knowledge and also the fact that I was born in 99, was that in a lot of the nightlife events, it seemed like people especially, well I guess I was really struck by like butch people and a lot of suits and like formal wear going out and maybe that was normal, not just in the queer community and all communities but I don't think it was, were you going to like more formal events where people, was this like a common fit, like can you give any information? Why did everybody look so good? You know, it was not formal, it was just constant like fashion and drag and flamboyance and vintage clothes. I mean, there's nothing, the photos aren't up right now but there, nothing was any particularly, you know, exquisite formal event. It was just what people woke up wearing. Left the house in. It really was part of what made the 90 San Francisco so wildly like photogenic and rare and you know, kind of creative and impressive. The kids just don't dress like that, the way they used to, right? Like I feel like I look at my grandparents' photos with like hats and like trench coats and all these incredible accessories but I guess that was kind of us then too. Still in the grandparents' clothes, like it was all these vintage old things but yeah, it was just a daily aesthetic and part of that might've been the like extreme, like almost over the top, like the butch femme thing, like really running with it, like really just embracing like extreme gender roles almost. Hi, I really appreciate you talking about how people may not have even seen these photos and I think it feels very like romantic and nostalgic now to like not be constantly documented. When you now shoot in queer spaces, have you noticed that our ability to like constantly document and look at exactly what we look like? Has that changed the energy in spaces? I'm sure it has. I mean, the fact that you can, I mean, anybody and everybody can and is snapping images, iPhone pictures, the gamut. I mean, you could like over documented, like you're saying, you're just like there's, it's hard to not, it's hard to put limits on how much you want your image or your environment captured and exposed essentially. I don't know how it's changed now. I mean, I would have to say I don't find it unintimidating to walk into a place and say, how am I gonna get a photo if somebody hasn't gotten at this point? You know, you go into mother bar every morning after the evening of mother bar. There's like amazing photos posted online on like this happened, that happened and they're like beautiful lighting in there. People look good. There's, you know, candid images. I'm like, it's been done. It's, you know, this is all happening. Like rapid fire. So it has changed. I don't know. Again, it's certainly hearing what you're saying is different than what we said back then. We were not, there was no imagery of us at all anywhere in politics and in, you know, the media in Hollywood, in anywhere in, you know, there was no gay marriage. There was no gays in the military. Like there was nothing representing or no visual access to gays or queers other than, yeah, just I can't think of anything actually. So we weren't amongst each other withholding of, you know, showing ourselves. And that's another, maybe another reason why the book is uniquely novel. Because it was from a time when there wasn't anything else, which is very different from now. Yeah. First of all, I wanna just say thank you for existing and coming into the world. Because if it wasn't for you, this body of work wouldn't be here to document us. So I wanna just thank you for that. Now, when you were talking about your early days of digital work, I drew a parallel. I started to think of our early days of generative AI photography. And I know that you can talk about all night about your feelings about this, but what are your thoughts on generative photography? So thank you, that was very sweet to hear. Thank you so much for that compliment. Generative AI photography, I barely know what that is. I'm not sure I can talk at all about it. Is it so like everything, all the billboards now when I drive down through the city where they're like, here's a real dog, here's a fake AI dog, that. That's a bigger conversation than I can even summon up responding to right now. I don't know. It's complicated. Okay. Hi, I'm just curious what film you like to shoot with. Back then, you mentioned 35 millimeter. Curious what film you used. And also you said now you like your digital setup. Curious what cameras you use currently that you like. Good question. So film, I loved Fujifilm. I absolutely loved the colors, the reds in Fujifilm. I had used a few different Fujifilms, but I was like Fuji or bust. I didn't like, if I varied it, I pretty much shot a roll and gave the other rolls I might've had away. So Fujifilm, usually a 400. Today, I use a Leica. So, and I have a couple different setups. So it's the finally the way that I found, it's actually manually. Leica has made their digital cameras behave and the tactile aspect of the camera is a lot like an old 35 millimeter camera. There's dials and buttons and it's set up in a similar way, which I love because I kind of still have this muscle memory for my old cameras. So to be able to use that, the colors are spectacular, the quality spectacular, the reds again in Leica, imagery is just the low light. Everything about it works for me and my style, so. Hi, thank you so much for everything, making this book, being here tonight. No pressure if you don't know, but what's next? Oh, enthralled by your work. Um, a lot is happening right now. So again, which I didn't expect, so I'm kind of mostly saying yes to things that come my way. There's, I've envisioned another book at some point. I have some new work that I have, that's in the making, queer documentation. There's consideration, I'm, you know, have kind of pipe dreams of almost picking up where I left off with the people in this book as a possibility. I'm doing some other, you know, like movie work. I might be doing a documentary. There's lots of stuff on the border, but I'm basically keeping moving forward. I'm not gonna close back up the doors and say there we go, there's my 90s stuff, you're good to go. But amazingly, you know, this has brought my work and my other work into the forefront, so it's been a really lucky and fortunate journey. Yeah. Thank you for switching to color. Those were gorgeous, gorgeous images. I'm gonna bring us back to history for just a little bit because I'm super curious. I was around in the 90s, I ran into some of the folks, but I was very explicitly in the sex community and I just would love to hear your thoughts about how the queer and the dyke sex world, which many of your, many of the people that you photograph were part of in some way or another or adjacent to how you differentiate and or vibe together with the dykes from The Lusty Lady and there are so many different scenes that were so close together, as you note. So I would say exactly that. The community was so massive. There were subcultures within our subculture. I mean, there was, yeah, The Lusty Lady girls, I mean, I don't think it's one or the other. I think some were some jobs, people were doing, some were, so did you specifically mean sex work or SM or either way, I would say that sure, people kind of vignetted through many aspects of the vast San Francisco community and like anything had more of an interest in one area or another or I was, my interest in photography was more in kind of my daily, was more about kind of casual interactions and intimacy and joyous moments. So sure, I went into clubs here and there, but I wasn't necessarily as dedicated to photographing every aspect of the huge place that we called San Francisco in the 90s. I mean, there were everything's from dungeons to play parties to festivals to, I mean, so many of the fems in these photos, not many, a handful, or sex workers, at one point for money or at or no longer, most actually, nobody I know continued, but that was a financial necessity or option at the time. But yeah, it wasn't what I photographed, but yes, there were, there was, it was a vast scene. So like with any essentially family, everyone is doing their own thing and comes together. And so my photos are kind of a umbrella, like a, I don't know, I don't know what I'm talking about, kind of a umbrella, like a glimpse into aspects of the world, of our time. Thank you, Chloe. Thank you, Christina. Yes, give it up. Books will now be available out in our lobby. Chloe's gonna join us outside for a book signing and then like I said, mother bar, 16th and Valencia. Join us. It's also a historic bar. Used to be Este Noche.