 Well, hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Dr. Jill Live. Today, as always, I have an amazing guest, and we're gonna dive deep into complex chronic illness. I know so many of you out there suffer from autoimmunity, Lyme disease, other viral infections, mold-related illness, other environmental taxis disease, and I'm with a real expert today, and I cannot wait for you to meet her and learn more. In just a moment, I'll share her bio. It's Teresa Haller, and stay tuned because you're in for a great episode. Just a little bit of background. If you haven't caught my other episodes, you can see them all. We're over 100 episodes now on YouTube, on Stitcher, on iTunes, wherever you find them. And I would love you to stop by if you are listening and enjoy them. Please leave a review. That helps us to reach more people. So without further ado, I wanna introduce my guest. Teresa Haller is a family practice physician, assistant in Williamton, North Carolina, which we just talked about. It's kind of gonna get some rain probably from the hurricane soon. Hopefully you guys stay okay. Former assistant professor of medicine, former director of education for project wellness and author of Cardiology Essentials, Haller for Your Health. Love that. And on medicine and miracles. Oh my goodness. I love those titles. That's great. She's been featured on NPR, Fox TV, Good Morning America, Good Morning Arizona, Advanced Physician Assistance, and more. She's been a keynote speaker for both professional and consumer audiences, including the American Academy of Physician Assistance. However, what sets her apart is not her credentials, which speak for themselves, but her heart. Teresa truly cares about her patients and her concerns, provided help and hope to many patients who have lost both, despite seeking many different treatment options. Oh, Teresa, that last little part gives me goosebumps because it's so, biggest thing about what we do. Isn't it just like bringing that hope to people I'm sure you see every day like I do that have lost hope in our system or have been told there's no hope or there's nothing more. Don't you see sometimes with people that they come in and they tell me, my doctor said there's nothing more I can do, right? And you're just like, wait, like I can tell you have that heart. Tell us first about your journey, like how did you get into what you're doing now and how did you get into medicine? I'd love to hear just a little bit about like your background even where you grew up and how the journey happened for you. Sure. So I have always been interested in medicine. I started my interest in the 10th grade. I had a fabulous biology teacher and I just loved learning how the body worked. And I always wanted to help people. That was my main drive. And so I just decided to put what I love together with helping people and that's how I landed in medicine. And I ended up teaching as a assistant professor in a PA program. So I had to do doctoral coursework. And so while I was doing that I took an environmental health class and I was shocked by what I learned. I had no idea that chemicals could make people sick. And I started realizing that some of the patients who I had had knew more about these things than I did. And I felt very humbled. I felt like I was trained to be arrogant. And I felt really bad for a while, felt really guilty. And so that kind of started my way of looking at other things and just started the ball rolling down. What else didn't I know? Oh my goodness, vitamins matter. Oh my goodness, what else didn't I know? And I just started lumping things in. And around the time that that happened I had just written a cardiology textbook and it had gotten published. And so I just took the passion and started, I got kind of mad. So I would holler for your help. I love it. I know those titles are like the best. Yeah, so you could see my emotional spiritual journey from very conventional, know-it-all cardiology to I'm mad that I didn't know what I should to help people holler for your health. And then somewhere we get that more enlightened on medicine and miracles. That was my journey to where I am now. It is. It's like I'm reading that and I hadn't pre-read your bio. So I was like, wow, I love this lady. And what I love, there are two things that came out. Curiosity. You talked about not using that word, but I know that's what you met with. I feel like the best doctors are the ones that remain curious and humble of like, wow, there's more because so often in medical school we graduate and we get out and then you stop learning, right? Which is in the case for you or I. But it's literally that curiosity of like, oh, wait, they didn't teach me this. I wanna know more. I think that drives us and for better or worse, we both landed in the very most complex dense forest of medicine. I love it. I'm sure you do too because we get to help people who maybe haven't had hope. But I love that. And then I love the further journey of like seeing unexpected miracles and things that are, because we do, we get to witness such beautiful things with our patients. And it starts with that curiosity, right? And I love that you also said listening because I find the same thing. I feel so lucky and blessed because so many of my patients, they research, they bring me articles as they have you heard of this new thing. Sometimes they have, but sometimes they haven't. I say, oh, tell me more, right? And we get the opportunity to learn from our patients. Yes, yes. It's fun. And I think that like when you get, when you start going down this rabbit hole, it's like you start with nutrition and then you learn about healing the gut and then you learn about, oh, what is methylation? And what are these things and hormones and you start adding things to your toolbox. And I think that you can become very comfortable using that toolbox I just mentioned and helping a lot of patients that aren't getting better. But to progress further into the world of chronic complex illness, I think that there's something wrong with us because it's so hard, but I really just enjoy biochemistry. It was always my favorite thing and I love learning why, why, why. And so I think that's what kind of made me plod on down further and learn some of these more complex things. You know, they say brother from another mother. I think we're sisters from another mother. Because I like, I so relate to what you're saying. And like it's funny because I'm the same like I love the complexity. I love the puzzles. I love to help solve the problem. So one of the things that ends up happening when we are these, you know, docs and physician assistants and experts in areas that are complex and people who haven't gotten answers is we run up against, I always think of it as toxic load which can be mold or chemicals or metals and infectious burden, right? So, and we'll talk about both of those today. Would you say that's kind of a root of what you see as well is either the viral, the Lyme, the chronic tick-borne infections or other types of things and the toxic environmental load like mold or other things like that? I think that in the last year or two, it's gotten a lot worse. I'm sure you're seeing the same thing. So, you know, patients who we used to be able to recover fairly easily. We started getting, I don't know about you, but I started getting a little complacent. Okay, I'm getting this down. And then something shifted. The toxic burden just got so much heavier in everyone. And so those that were dealing with infections and things like that, it's just taking a lot more to get them well than it did even two years ago. And that's why I was excited when you invited me on the show because I feel like there's just a chance to just spread hope to those people who are sickest and that's where my passion is. Me too. And I love that. And one of the reasons we met was through a company. I know we both like to use, but we're not sponsored by them or anything, just freely talking. And we talked before about what's gonna be fun as we can dive into some of the products we use for these complex chronic things. I'll just frame this because what ends up happening again, we can talk about detox and kind of how you approach the complex patient. And I'd love to hear that. We'll come right back to that. But the other piece we're gonna talk about is these chronic infections. And it's kind of a sign of our weakened immune system, where all these things pop up. Why don't you start by telling us like how do you start with someone who's complex? Maybe they have chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, migraine headaches, weakness, maybe even neurological symptoms or other things. Where do you start? Give us a little overview on how you'd start that. So I spend a lot of time on the history because I find that it helps to cheapen the visit as far as the lab tests are where the big expenses in functional medicine. So I try to really target the specialty testing and not have to, I tell my patients like looking at the spokes of a wheel if they're coming in with all these symptoms, I could go down any spoke to find the problem. But I asked just questions to try to figure out which spoke is where their biggest problem is. So if they, you know, we had a hurricane Florence come through here four years ago and decimated our area. So if they got, you know, if their symptoms began right after that, we pretty much know we're gonna go down the mold pathway first. And so that's how I kind of do it is figure out when did your symptoms begin and what was going on right around that time and target that area. But predominantly most of my patients will end up on some type of mitochondrial support, something that methylates their B vitamins, but is careful for some patients where there may be a COMT or a CBS mutation. So sometimes I'm really careful with that. And then waiting for the lab work, sometimes they're so sick, I'll put them on anti-inflammatory immune system modulators right off the bat, kids with pans and pandas. I'd love to start them off on Cogniz detox and Ciflacom 2 from Beyond Balance before I even get lab work. And if they're jumping off the walls, lithium orate right off the bat. So we can settle them down and maybe some L-thianing to calm them. So the first thing I like to do is just give them some peace. And so that's how I'll start. And then when I'm waiting for a lab work to come in every now and then I just know someone has an infection and I know their immune system is all over the place. And I will also start them on Cemento from Neutromedics because Cemento, you really can't go wrong with it as long as you titrate the dose carefully because of the fact that it's an immune system modulator. So wherever the inflammation or autoimmunity, whichever you have, we now know that it's auto-inflammatory where it's a combination. That's gonna settle it regardless. And it's also gonna help with some pain. It can help with the underlying root cause if there is an infection. So I sometimes will start them on that along with Berber Penella. I always use Berber Penella to clear the lymphatics, the glymphatics and protect from any die off reactions. Berber Penella is definitely what makes my practice the easiest to run because it just helps me to field a lot of phone calls by immediately my staff is trained to ask have you taken extra Berber Penella? And if they say no, that's always the answer to the question initially. Yeah, so that's kind of where I start. So I love that and gosh, so similar. So, and I wanna repeat for people listening cause they're like, what were those products? We'll put them in everything because I have the same way. And these are from different companies and all that, but they definitely, I agree with you with that really. Especially the kids, the brain inflammation. I love the calming cause they're just, it's almost like their bodies can't, they're so inflamed, right? So you mentioned Cogniz detox, which is beyond balance. And then CypherCom, was it CypherCom or CypherCom2? CypherCom2. Yep, yep, okay. And Cemento, I agree. It is my go-to cat's claws, the ingredient in there, but Cemento is really a special product. Lime works really well on lime and co-infections and also on Epstein-Barr because it has that antiviral activity. But like you said, it kind of has an anti-inflammatory. And I've always thought about like lime and complex chronic inflammation infection. And these things we're talking about, there's really a spectrum and it's not just one thing often. And you can use drugs and I do sometimes, but often they're so one-sided and so they're like sledgehammers that especially the kids do better with the herbs. And it's surprising, I would say respect the herbs because they are very powerful, right? What would you maybe start? So first of all, like Cemento, that's a real classic. I love talking about that. I'll often go to like 30 twice a day, but how do you start them and dose them on those drops? Sure, so it's important to just mention that if someone's gonna start cat's claw, I always use Cemento because it's TOA free. So if you're using a different brand of cat's claw, you have to be really careful because if it has the TOA in it, it can cause inflammation and that may worsen pans and pandas and those kids are so, you have to be so careful with them to begin with and same with autoimmunity. So I'd like to start, if I really think that they're gonna be triggered, I start with one drop twice a day. I just put in a little shot glass of water and each day I tell patients go up by a drop a day until you have any new or worsening symptoms. And even if the symptoms have nothing to do with it, you might just catch a cold. Either way, it's fine to just hold, just wait. And then when you feel back to your baseline, go up by another drop. So it's kind of a stair stepping increase. And I sometimes max out at 40 drops twice a day. So somewhere between 30 and 40. And I always, if I really suspect that there's Lyme or chronic infection, I never use it alone. I add a second herb to get a synergistic effect. And usually that's gonna be bandarol initially, but sometimes I pick a different one. If I suspect Bartonella, I might choose Hatunia. If I suspect Easter Mold, I might choose Commanda. Although sometimes I like to wait because Commanda will give them a massive die off if there's mold or yeast, right? You know that, yeah. So, and then I always have to add Stevia. And I didn't know this for a long time. And I started doing a test panel from DNA Connections. I don't know if you've ever used that, but yeah. So I was using antibody testing from medical diagnostic labs for over a decade because it's cheap with a code for fatigue, it's free with most insurance for an entire panel. And in any event, but I can't tell if things are gone. So in these complex patients, sometimes they're a percentage better. And I'm like, well, which of these infections are gone and which aren't? That's when I'll do a DNA Connections test. So what I was finding is a lot of patients had this infection called Borrelia recurrentis. And nothing was getting rid of it. Nothing seemed to work until I added Stevia. Neutromatic Stevia was the only one that worked in the study done by Theophilus in 2015. That was the Stevia A in the study. And it was the one that was most effective. And it kills persister cells. So I always do two droppers twice a day for two months. So I may not start it at the beginning and might layer it in later because I wanna make sure I kill the persister cells. And that was eradicating that Borrelia recurrentis that nothing else was doing when I added that into whatever regimen I was using. So that's kind of why I like to use the combination. Teresa, this is brilliant. So cause I love it. I always learned from my, so I haven't used the last Stevia, but that makes so much sense. And the recurrentis is a tick-form relapsing fever, right? And it's, I find again, I'm in Colorado. So typically people will say, oh, there's no mold in Colorado or there's no lime. Ha, ha, right? Because I see patients every day. But the one I do see way more out here than the classical Borrelia Berkter Ferry, which is especially like on the Western Blot of Lab for a quest or hospital labs. Those are not so common out here in Colorado, especially for people who are natives, but I see a ton of the tick-form relapsing fever because that's actually more common, Utah, Arizona, Texas, Wyoming, Colorado out here. And I've talked with some of the docs, Dr. Horowitz and the ILEDS docs and a lot of them say, I mean, this can come out at night just from the body heat, like if you're camping or hiking or staying in a long cabin and it can infect a person within 15 seconds and leave no rash or evidence. And it's also in flea and lice. So it's very unusual, like the other Borrelias are not usually from those. I happen to test positive for Borrelia recurrentis and I think it was way back in my childhood when lice was outbreak in school and I think it was actually maybe from that versus the tick. So that's interesting, kind of gross, but true, right? So I love that you mentioned that though because people are testing or have their, and I agree, I feel like that's a lot harder to treat. So usually do like Cementobandrol plus DV or some kind of combination. I wanna go back to Berber-Panella because I agree that's a great thing for the Herxheimer diop. How do you use that? Say someone's like, I'm really suffering from bad headaches and worsening joint pain. What would you recommend for them to do with that Berber-Panella? Okay, so actually I was doing a lunch and learn with another physician practice and they taught me a super tip. So now I'm stealing their idea. It's a great idea. But what they're doing is I used to tell my patients to take a dropper full every 10 minutes for an hour and then call us back. And so she told me what she does is she takes six dropper fulls, puts it in a glass of water and tells it to finish the glass in an hour. And then you don't have to remember to take something every 10 minutes. And I thought that was brilliant. So what happens is patients will call back, shocked like they would never believe as bad as they felt that that's all they had to do. And then of course we sometimes will drop the droppers, the killing droppers like Cementobandrol, Stevia back by a drop or two and hold their till they fully recovered. But one of the things that I really wanted to make sure people were aware of today is that when you're having symptoms that last more than three days, it's probably not a herxheimer reaction. It's probably the port for endumping. And I wanted to make sure people knew what that was because that's what really makes sick people not get better if they're mistaking it for a herxheimer and they're moving too fast because that's treated entirely different. Let's talk about that because I totally agree with you. And I think Sylvia, like I told you before we have a really intelligent audience of all types. So I think our clients, patients, fans will enjoy this. Talk about that. What is that and what happens and what do we do about it? Okay. So this is gonna be really hard to explain but this is my favorite biochemistry. So, okay. So there's something called primary porphyria. We're not talking about that. That's something that's diagnosed in children. It's an innate error of metabolism. It's not something that we're talking about now but secondary porphyria, think about a garden hose. And what happens is your body has a pathway to make heme. Think about heme aglobin. Myoglobin in the muscle also contains heme and actually detox enzymes contain heme and some of the mitochondrial compounds that are needed to make energy contain heme. So heme is vital for feeling good and for function. And so in order to make heme there are all these intermediates and these intermediates go down a pathway. And what happens is the very last step is where you take iron and you bind the iron to this last intermediate. The problem is the iron will not bind if it's in the oxidized state. So think about oxidative stress, right? Oxidative stress can be caused by any biological toxin, any other toxin or a infectious disease that has toxic effects. And so what happens is if you're suffering from many of these really severe root causes that we're talking about today, it is possible that you're gonna have that iron in the oxidized state and not be able to bind the porphyrin to the heme to make the heme. And so what happens is there is a rate limiting, there's a negative feedback loop that goes back to the top. And it says, we're not making heme, so let's make heme and it tries to push the pathway faster like let's go, let's go. And what happens is it speeds the pathway up but you still can't make heme. So all those toxic porphyrins as intermediates just bulge out of the system that go out in the system and they are super reactive and they cause major oxidative stress which then causes major inflammation and that's what triggers mast cell activation. And so now you're in a big mess. And so what you really wanna do, number one in treating any complex chronic illness is not do that, you know, that's the number one. Don't do that, yeah, so yeah. So how do you not do that? You don't do that by choosing regimens that you could tight trade up a drop at a time and going nice and slow and being cognizant of when you feel worse. It doesn't, you know, some people just have that mindset of I'm gonna plow right through this and they take the longest to get better because it doesn't work that way. And so you wanna go slow. The other thing is you can't chelate toxins out because you need heme to make those enzymes work. So if you're trying to jump in and chelate things you can make yourself much sicker if you're not prepared, if this heme pathway is not working. So the way to fix it is gonna be counterintuitive. I actually had a patient one time tell me she felt so much better when she ate sugar but she wouldn't eat it because sugar's bad for you, right? So she wouldn't do it. Well, it turns out that the treatment of the primary form that we're not talking about that babies get is IV glucose, it's sugar. So for what do we do for secondary is we can use healthier forms of sugar. We can have a piece of fruit before a meal. We can use honey, there's lots of ways to do it or even just a simple carb that breaks down to sugar faster like rice or something like that. So having that at the onset of a meal because meals tend to trigger porphyry and a lot of people can help. But if you've already triggered it you wanna mop up those toxic compounds quickly and you do that with charcoal, activated charcoal. I use a product called GID TOX, it's just my favorite. It's from Bioside and Botanicals but you can use straight up activated charcoal. There's many different things you can use but that's the same thing. And then just slow down the whole pathway. That's what you wanna do. So if you're, a lot of people think if I just treat this and I get a hearse I'm doing the right thing, I'm doing the right thing I got a hearse. And a lot of times it's not a hearse and they're not doing the right thing. So that's why I wanted to really make that point. I think that could help a lot of people to know that. Teresa that is such a pearl and such a gift and not only that but you explain that so well for anyone from a professional like me someone who doesn't really know the biochemistry brilliant job of explaining. I know I know why the person who introduced this said you will love her. I do, I think you're amazing. But what a great, great practical. I had a little different way of explaining it but it's so exactly what you're saying now just for the, it's generic but it's like we're mobilizing toxins and we have to excrete them, right? And if we mobilize quicker, then we can excrete we get stuck in between. And I love what you said because so often patients or even doctors will say, oh, just keep pushing through, right? You're gonna be fine. And I'm like, you know, I'm like, no, that's a sign. Like you said, I love that you said I wanna repeat this. You said, if it's more than three days it's probably not a hearse because so many patients are suffering and they think, oh, I'm just supposed to suffer for weeks or whatever, right? That's not true because they're actually doing more harm than good with either porphyria or the just a toxic in general or oxidative stress they're mobilizing before they can excrete. So I love that you were so clear on that and so practical. And I love the tip on Berber Panilla I'm gonna start using a lot more of that as well. So very good tips. What about, so the other thing you mentioned in the beginning was the history, right? You save people money by trying to really listen to their story. So one of the things I wanted to emphasize if you're listening to this and you look back you could write out a timeline when you got sick without even a doctor you could write it out and say when I moved here I did this, did that when I was in Virginia with ticks exposure or when I moved to this new house and you might actually be able to help the doctor figure out because you have a very clear idea of when things happened. Any other tips or things as far as finding maybe root cause in these complex chronic patients? So I think you just nailed it. One of the things that helps me I tried to bring functional medicine to working class people. That was my mission. And so for me I only have an hour with these complex chronic illnesses. And so I tell patients to bring a timeline and just put everything in order and it helps a lot. So really that's the number one thing is if you can just outline the timeline and then you can piece together and it's really fun to look at it, isn't it? Oh yeah, it's because of that that this triggered this and then this triggered that and you can just see the- And they really become partners, right? Because all of a sudden they're like, oh yeah and I remember oh yeah, I had a car accident and then a concussion and that made things worse too. So wow, already this is so packed full of goodness. What about like, so let's go to tick-borne infections because you're in an area. I'm not, but I see a ton of that and it's increasing epidemically, like astronomically I should say in all states in the US every state has been shown to have Lyme disease and tick-borne infections. And we're not just talking about Borrelia. Like we said, we have the tick-borne relapse a year. We have a BC, a Bartonella. Often I'll see, I'm sure you do as well, Borrelia, Babesia, Bartonella and maybe something else. What would you do with those patients that have the trifecta or more of these complex tick-borne infections when they have a bunch of them? Sure, I think it's almost wise to just assume everybody's got them all because I mean, it's just so common now to see a plethora of things. The other thing I wanna say also is I did have a patient and I've had several patients like this but one to give example who had psoriasis and psoriasis is a classic heal the gut, right? The gut healing that should help with psoriasis. Well, she didn't get better when I did that. And so I put her on Cemento because I figured, well, maybe there's a microbe and it's good for auto inflammatory diseases anyway. And she ended up testing positive for Lyme later but she got better with just the Cemento. And so a lot of times when you're saying what would you do for these microbes diseases? The first thing I would say is assume you have one because maybe you can't find someone to test you or maybe you can't afford the testing. Just assume you have one because if you're using herbal treatments it's not gonna hurt because they also modulate the immune system. And the treatments that we're using like Cemento's been approved for has studies that show it works for osteoarthritis, rheumatoid arthritis. So you can use it for symptom management anyway. It was tested against the NSAID Felde and it was 86% as effective as an anti-inflammatory. So use it like ibuprofen. And if you have a bug look, you kill it too. So I think that there's just no harm in that. So when you have all of them, what do you do? One of the things I learned at ILEDS this year that I didn't know and wasn't doing right. I love that. I think I can teach people more from what I'm doing wrong. I know what I'm doing right. But treating babesia first. It turns out that there's this new babesia. Is Oda Chelly, are you familiar with that? I know I'm wrecking the name. Just yesterday I had a patient come in and we talked about new treatment options that she has evidence on T-Labs, which is one of the newer labs of Dr. Mosani, I believe. And she had this like it was shown in the book, it was very clear. And I hadn't heard of it, but I knew there were some new strains. It's like they're continually coming out with new strains, right? Cause there really are probably way more than we ever test for. So yeah, tell me what you learned because that was interesting. And I think it was the biggest part of her symptoms for sure. So one of the things that we learned is that babesia duncani, which we can test for doesn't tend to infect humans. So when you see that on a lab, you could assume they actually have this thing. Okay. But that's interesting, right? I learned that last year at ILEDS. And this year, the same speaker, Dr. Linder just went more in depth with some information. So this babesia forms nests, not biofilms, nests. So it's a big tangled mess. And really the only thing that's gonna penetrate those nests is Baloch. That's the Lumbrachinase brand that we all know is the best. You can get it from Research Nutritionals, the Canada RNA brand. But that seems to be the brand that everyone says is the go-to. And taking that on an empty stomach twice a day seems to be the best for breaking into those nests. And so... How high do you go over there? I often do two or three, twice a day, but what's your dosing? Well, again, I learned what I was doing wrong at ILEDS because my dosing was one twice a day. I tend to be a minimalist, but for nests... I use the two, right? Yes, but for the nest, you definitely need more. Two to three, twice a day, yes. And then using whatever babesia treatment you have, you may need to rotate and keep going with this one. It's just harder to kill. So babesia treatments, I still love the prescription MEPROM with azithromycin, but I don't do it the way everyone else does. I only do it for a week because I follow with herbs. So when I was at ILEDS, I was talking to a lot of practitioners who were using that for a very long time. And I just never have. Number one, I'm just afraid. I'm afraid to use antibiotics and hurt anyone, complication. So I just do a week and then fought with herbals. Artemisinin and Cryptolepsis, I think are probably the two strongest. And then I think that Neutrometics has a wonderful new product. Neutrometics just came out with three new products. I don't know if you knew that new combination. Yeah, I just saw those around my counter. Let's talk about those, because I'm super excited to have them literally sitting there, I can't wait to, and go ahead and tell us about those. Cause I think that if, and if I'm right, right there, we used to have all these wonderful single herbs, but often we need to combine and it's really complex. So they're trying to make it simpler. It makes it so much easier. So the Nutra BBS is the one you would layer in for babesia. It's got the annula and the Moira. And so you would just layer that in. So I just would like to rotate babesia, the treatments for a longer period of time, if you have that done canny. Now, of course, my crotty is going to go away. That's just easy to treat. That's cute. That's usually a week is sufficient, but it has a, I think it's a 40% relapse rate within four months. So I'll sometimes treat with an herbal like Nutra BBS for that four month period, just so it doesn't come back. So you typically like meprinzithromax for just a week and then adding the herbals on for four to six weeks or longer, a few four to six months, maybe. I always do four months for babesia just because of that statistic for high relapse within four months. And then after four months, I just consider it done with the exception of if somebody has this, this interesting new babesia strain, we'll know cause they won't be better and then I'll have to keep going. So that's how I'd manage that. The- While we're on babesia, let's talk real quickly about what would, cause you're good at clinical history. And so what would someone who's listening might have, what symptoms might they have with babesia? Give us a little like a snapshot of babesia. Classic babesia is going to be fatigue. Fatigue is way stronger and babesia and Bartonella is way stronger in emotional rage, anger, psychiatric symptoms. So if you have both, you probably have both infections, but you just, you know, we assume that, you know, they all cause fatigue, blind, whatever. But if you have extreme fatigue, like you get up in the morning and you can go for just a few hours and that's it. You're probably dealing with babesia if it's really that gut-wrenching fatigue, but night sweats, that hot, you know, the fever, chills, that's pretty classic for babesia. I've seen a lot of headaches, maybe Bell's palsy with babesia. And maybe your hunger sometimes, the- Air hunger is classic, but I see that with mold too, cause that's a mast cell symptom. Mast cell activation is the air hunger. But yes, babesia and mold are the top two for that. Yes, very good. Thank you. This is getting a little tangent. We'll come back to the Nutrometics, new products, but unexplained weight gain, I feel like obviously mold can do that, but can babesia also be in the unexplained weight gain category? Yes, but Bartonella, oh my gosh, I saw a 16-year-old girl gain 80 pounds in four months. Wow. I mean, Bartonella, classic, when people just put the weight on and nothing works, and it's just going up fast, I always think Bartonella. Okay, good, that's great to clarify. So back to, we talked about the one new Nutrometics combo for babesia. What are the others two? Yeah, but I do want to clarify that it could be babesia. Right, I know. All these, well, they can also have attached leptin and adipinectin in kind of your metabolic system, right? I mean, they can cause like a pre-diabetic kind of state, whether it's from, oh, one other thing, and I'm sorry I'm jumping around, but I get so excited talking to you. One other thing I love that you mentioned was back with porphyrias and the sugar, because what I see nowadays, keto so common, intermittent fasting so common, right? They're popular, they're popular weight loss, but this subsection of people, they do not do well on a ketogenic diet, they need the carbs. And so I love that you, I just want to specify that if you're out there and you're like, I don't do well on keto, listen to your body, because it is for these kinds of people, I'm one of those people who does not do well on keto and does not do well on intermittent fasting. And I just want to mention because it's so popular, right? I would just like to break shame right now, if it's okay with you. I want to just hurt this conversation. So yes, everyone is so afraid of a carb, and especially when you're sick with this, the average weight gain is 35 pounds when you have a complex chronic illness. Your mitochondria are impaired. And so you're going to feel like if you put a carb in your mouth that people are blaming or you're going to feel a shame, stop. You need it, you'll feel better, eat it, but don't pick really bad ones. Right. The only thing I wanted just to break shame, just a quick breaking shame moment. Chronic fatigue syndrome is defined by fatigue that doesn't get better with, like when you exercise instead of feeling better, you feel worse. And I just want to explain what's going on because a lot of physicians pushed their patients to exercise. And I've seen marriages on the verge of divorce because the doctors convinced the husbands that the wipes were lazy. And I just want to break that because here's what really happens. Your energy currency is ATP, a denicine triphosphate. That is energy, that's the chemical of energy. And those three phosphates, what happens is one gets pulled off and a poof of energy comes out with it. And now you have a denicine diphosphate, two phosphates. And then that's supposed to keep recycling. So you keep having energy. So if you were to run a marathon, you would run as far as you can, miles and miles and miles. And eventually you're going to not be able to make enough ATP and you're going to pull off another poof of phosphate and go down to AMP, a denicine monophosphate. And then what happens is your body cannot recycle that. So you have to build ATP from scratch and that can take from three to seven days. And so you would expect that after you ran a marathon, you're going to rest for a few days. You're going to be tanked. You're not going to have energy. That's normal. You don't feel bad about yourself. And then you go back to training again. So what happens in chronic fatigue is that you go from ADP to AMP doing very little. And if you push yourself when you get to that ADP moment and you know you don't have anything left in the tank and you just keep going because you feel ashamed of laying down and resting, you're going to be out for three to seven days. But if you just put your feet up for 20 minutes to an hour, you're going to make yourself get back into the recycling and you're going to be able to go again and you're going to be able to do more in the long run. So I just want to encourage people to pace themselves. When you wake up in the morning, you're going to have a certain amount of energy. When you feel it completely depleted, give yourself a break. Don't feel guilty. You'll get your energy back up. Then you go again. But if you push through, you're going to know it because three to seven days, you'll be out completely. I just want to, everyone is, I feel so bad for the people who are ashamed of being tired all the time. You're not lazy or sick. Yeah. I want to say that. I love, love, love this conversation. I love what you just shared. And I think that may be the most important thing in this whole, there's some great pearls here, but that I just want to cry. The people I come in the same thing as often a spouse or a partner or a parent or someone that shames them for either needing carbs or like you said, waking or not, and this is so real. And those people suffering intuitively know, but they often feel bad and like, what am I doing wrong? So thank you so much for sharing that. And I hope if you're listening out there and this relates to you that comment anywhere you hear this because I know there's a lot of you out there that are suffering. Thank you for saying that. That's so important. And I think when you say they intuitively know, they block that intuition because they think it's wrong. Sugar's bad. They don't even allow themselves to oversee that. Yeah. Right. I love that. Oh my gosh, so important. So talk about the other two new combo products that are out that might be helpful. Yes. My favorite one is a Neutra BRL for Borrelias. And the reason for that is it's the combination of the three tinctures that I use together to treat Borrelia. Cause like I said, I added the Stevia in. I wasn't doing it for many years and I should have, but it's Cemento Banderal, which is the Etobabark and Stevia and they're all in a one-to-one combination. So I work my patients up to three dropper fills twice a day, which would be the equivalent of one dropper of each of those. And then I add in one more dropper full of Stevia per dose for at least two months to make sure I kill the persister cells. And I'd like to comment on that because there was the Dr. Feng and Zhang 2020 study was presented at ILADS this year. Thankfully, that was an amazing study which showed the herbals that were beneficial at killing persister cells. And I wanted to point out that there was a study that showed Stevia by Neutromatics was effective at killing persister cells. And it was compared to the combination of doxycycline, cephalosporine and dapsone. And it was as effective. And that's a huge study that came out by Theophilus in 2015. And so what happened is this 2020 study by Feng, they picked the herbals that had shown promise to study. But in the 2015 study, they studied different forms of Stevia first. And the only one that showed that benefit was Stevia A, which was the Neutromatics brand of Stevia. Neutromatic sources all their herbs themselves and does everything in house. And they're very special because of that. So they didn't use the Stevia that was shown to work and other Stevias were less effective or completely ineffective. And so it was presented in that more recent study as ineffective. And I think that does a disservice to patients who are chronically ill because it is so much cheaper than some of these other herbs. And it is so effective. It was as effective as dapsone, doxycycline and cephalosporin. I mean, come on. And it's cheap, just throw it in. And even the speaker who was presenting that date of knowledge, she's like, well, it's really cheap. So throw it in anyway, which I appreciate it. So I just wanted to make sure that that didn't discourage anyone from adding that in. So the Nutri-BRL that you asked me about, back to the question, those three herbs at least get one dropper of each end, which be a total of three droppers of the Nutri-BRL twice a day. And then add in a full dropper of stevia twice a day for at least two months at the end, or you can do it at the beginning all the way through. And that is the protocol that I'm using now. I find that people might hurt more on the combination because I think it's just more effective. So just you may have to take care to go up really slow, but it's working. Teresa, these are such pearls that you're sharing. Because first of all, I've read both those studies and I did not realize the difference in source, but I did know that the Nutri-Medics is different in the effectiveness clinically. So I love that you clarified. If you have links to those, if you're listening here, I'll be sure and share them wherever you're listening. If someone wants that research, or I'll help you, if you don't have them, but I'd love to have those. We'll try to link those studies so people can actually look at those. I'll send it to you so you can link it because I'm challenged technologically. I know, I know. Yeah, I'll take care of that. I'll just share it. I'll make sure if you're listening, wherever you're listening, you will get those links. Stay tuned. And I love that you clarified because I did see the 2020 study. I was like, oh, Stevie is not so effective. I haven't been using as much, but I am going to start using a lot more. And we have all these in the clinic. So we definitely can use. And then there's the third. So I'm super excited about that BRL, right? Nutri-Medics. Yes. Okay. And so. And the last one is Nutra BRT, BRT Bartonella, okay? So Bartonella, the number one herb for Bartonella no matter what brand you're using is Hatunia, right? Hatunia is the main ingredient in every Bartonella regimen. And Hatunia, I don't know if you're familiar with Dr. Marty Ross, he gets all the protocols right on his website. He doesn't know me, I don't know him, but I love going to his website and just seeing what he's got on there. And he said that Hatunia has a 50% success rate, which is interesting, because that's about the same success rate I had for many years using just Hatunia. But if you add a second herb, you can get that up to 75%. And the second herb that he was using was Cida acuda. Oh, yes. But Cida acuda, you have to be extremely careful not to get pregnant. Cida acuda will be really, really bad to get pregnant while you're on. So Nutra Medics won't make it because they just wanna err on the side of caution. And I like that because Nutra Medics is my go-to herbs for my infection treatments. So if I have to go outside of that arsenal, which I do, it makes me pause, which makes me remember to ask these questions and be more careful. And so I like that. So I don't start with Cida acuda as my second herb just because of that. You also have to watch the thyroid with Cida acuda. But I'll use Kumanda because Kumanda kills everything, kills yeast, right? Yeah. Those are the right ways too, I love this. Yeah, so Nutra BRT is the two together. It's Kumanda plus Hatunia in a one-to-one ratio. And so I start with that. And I love that they put them together. And so I start that tight trade up and that's the go-to. Now, Dr. Moyazini is using liposomal oregano, allicin, garlic, two twice a day of each of those, plus I think it's biaxin twice a day, the antibiotic he's using. So I've tried that on some of my patients because it works, but it was hard to tolerate digestively. No one could stay on it. And so I think that that's another regimen to try. But what I'm doing now, because I wanna get that 75% success rate up to the 95% tile. In order to do that, you have to add a third something. And I think it's gonna be stevia. I just do. So we need to study that. We need to study the adding the stevia to that. Well, today I'm gonna start using these protocols. We'll have to talk again in six months and at least I can keep my small little data points and we can share, but I totally agree with you. And I love the Kumanda also is gonna affect yeast, which so many of these people are colonized with yeast. Let's talk real briefly. We only have a couple of minutes left, but what about fungal stuff? Because that's almost always coexistent. What do you use herbally or medication-wise with these patients if you suspect they have fungal issues? Sure. So I use a lot of different things, but I just wanna make sure that I just throw out there before we go there, resveratrol. Everybody should be on that if they're treating a chronic infection. Japanese knotweed resveratrol and Nutrimetix has a really cheap version, well, excuse me, valuable. Yeah. I've been told not to save me if anymore. I know, and they're like, but it's affordable, affordable, right? Valuable, that's a good name. They didn't tell me that. Somebody else didn't. Anyway, okay. So I just wanna make sure that as we move on, that's so important because it does so many things for the immune cascade and it also prevents Bartonella from moving deeper into the tissue as you treat. So I just wanna bring that up. Okay, fungal. I use a lot of different things. I started out when I see aspergillus in the GI tract, I started out using nystatin and I saw it eradicate and the markers would go away on the Great Plains Lab test, but I don't like all the additives they put in it and if I compounded, it's too expensive. So I started thinking, I wonder if herbals would work for this. And I found success with berberine. I found success with grapefruit seed extract. I love the NutriKology brand of that. That one was the one used in clinical studies. So I always went to that one. I like biocitin, but cumanda is my favorite for when there's multiple infections because it kills so many different things. We call it a keep herb. It kills everything except people. Yeah, it's gonna kill your fungus, your yeast, your bacteria and it's just a nice adjunct. So I usually will start with that if I'm on a protocol for other things and then sometimes layer these other things in based on what I'm treating in their overall picture. Oh my goodness, this is so full of great pearls. So in kind of wrapping up here, what about just plain oil? I mean, we've really talked in detail about infections, talking about timeline, talking about so many really core things. What about like general joint pain inflammation? Is there anything else you would like or do for someone who just really suffers from pain? That's a good point. So inflammation in general, I think that there's many things we can use. Obviously fish oil is really good, must be a good brand. You also can use curcumin. It has to be BCM95 in my book. That's the trademark one used in most clinical studies. I use CuraPRO, but as I mentioned has one called CuraFIN that's 500 milligrams, CuraPRO is 750. And I use SPMs. I love SPMs. Me too, love them. And there are hundreds of ways post COVID that show that people aren't converting from EPA to DHA to the pro-resolvence mediators. So I love using it also for long COVID or people are struggling from inflammation after COVID. Yes, yes. And NONI, Nutrometics makes a NONI that has been shown to be more effective than other types of Moringa. And that's a great anti-inflammatory. And sometimes I throw my pans and pans as kids on that first along with those other things if they're super inflamed, because it doesn't kill anything. It will only reduce inflammation. Yeah, which is great. There'll be no die-off at all with NONI. So when you're afraid to touch anything, touch NONI. And everyone should be on modified citrus pectin. Just have to throw that out there. Oh yeah, great binder. There's studies on that and on all the environmental toxins, the organophosphates, pesticides, phthalates, pyramids are amazing. So I think of it as like a chemical binder, but you're saying just in general toxicity. Well, it reduces Galactin-3, which is the alarm in which sets off all the cascades. And so it also is really good for glyphosate. Oh yes, I love it. Amazing. Oh, Teresa, this has been such a joy. And I say that with so many, but literally like this is like a fire hose. And I've seen people comment, they are loving this. They're loving you, no surprise. Thank you for what I love most is your heart. Like even the fact that you wanna get the working with the people, because not everybody can afford super expensive regimens and drugs I use them, but it's so neat to have some great protocols that aren't drug-based that really work. So you've brought hope, you've brought healing, you've talked about some incredible protocols. I have so enjoyed this. I know everyone else has. We're gonna have to do this again. Any last final words to the listener, maybe who's struggling, suffering that you leave them with a glimmer of hope? Yes, there's always hope. Don't give up, don't quit. If you wanna get well, one of the things you have to do is be careful of your mindset. Be careful what you feed your mind. And so I would really encourage you to turn off social media, turn off all those things, get into the scriptures, get into the word, get into some music that's uplifting, get outside, get into nature. And get your head back in the game, okay? Love, love, love that. And love you, Teresa. It's been such a joy. Thank you for your time, for your expertise, for all the good you're doing in the world. Where can people find you? My website is teresaholler.com. Awesome, we'll link that too. And thank you again for your time today.