 Welcome to JSA TV Europe together with a greener data movement for this quarter's live event focused on the European Digital Infrastructure Sustainability I'm John March Lim and joining me today from Stockholm is Isabel Kamlin vice chairman of chairwoman of the Swedish data center industry Association Isabel, thank you so much for coming on board. Thank you for speaking to me You are sitting in probably what is one of the most interesting markets in Europe for the last eight years What makes Sweden such a preferred destination for data centers? Well, I think there are Several things that actually make makes this so interesting And I think the first and foremost is of course the probably a faster return on investment so it's a Short time to market with quite many sites They are ready to build with permanent permits already in place. We have a transparent actually a permitting Process and the authorities really want to help companies to establish We also have competitive land prices. We have like Sweden is a is a physical big country From that I mean that it's like the distance from from the north to the south If you kind of flip the whole of Sweden, you get down further below than Rome So it's a big country. So we have a lot lot of land and We have excellent connectivity Nowadays, I mean 20 milliseconds down to the flap region is Is an average what we have and we also have very big like very built at the government had put a lot of Money into making sure that we have high speed fiber capacity to all households and it is really a stable connectivity, but The I think one of the biggest things of course is that we have reliable green and see you neutral Power supply so I wouldn't say fossil free but fossil neutral Because we have a mixed energy mix based on renewable power sources such as hydropower wind and wind And we also have yeah, the the rest of the mix is is nuclear So I think those things in combination with for the the power and excellent grid system Is something that is makes us very interesting in addition, of course You were just mentioning and Stockholm as we were talking about Iceland and what's colder Sweden also have a cold climate the average temperature up in north is three degrees Celsius We have also a high degree of district heating systems that actually allows for heat reuse for data centers and In addition because we actually got Facebook established quite early in the Nordics and For for being outside of of of the flap And that have actually created. Yeah, we have a very technical Like it's really leading the development of sustainable data centers So it's not just that we have you know district heating There are also a lot of new technical innovations that is coming on top of this Yeah, so there are there are several the list can be long The workforce as well. We have now a lot of technical Well technical people skilled people and we have also been working with the global pay players Both met and Microsoft and Amazon has been here now for quite some time Google is in the planning as well So, yeah, there are a lot of a lot of things that can be done Also to come I think because it's so highly highly interesting before it's been like a Boss on now. Is it going to happen? But now we can really see that things are ensuring all the dice are turning six Like the highest punctuation you can have I think that goes kind of for the Nordics so we can see also that large investments big Especially industrial funds that want to have one portion As a digital investment has been looking and Investing a lot in the Nordics Okay, and I mean another aspect which you touched upon as well It is the government support for all the Sweden has been one of the first ones to push out Data center for any regulations to speed up development, which is I mean, it worked out well for the nation at least I was going to ask is we do tend to focus a lot on the positives And there's a lot of them especially on the energy front But are there any challenging situations right now in the in the Swedish data center space? I mean and this could be anything we the world is dealing with high interest rates, for example What's what's like the few things at the moment are a little bit more Precarious when it comes to data center development So I think from a data center development. We are struggling probably with what All all the other ones in there in the world are so for example Regarding with the pandemic and the war in Ukraine with material supply But this has actually also led to that we have now more local suppliers So the the the teams are not just You know purely flying in and do your work and build something and construct and then move off It has actually led to having engaged More of the local the local community, which is very Positive in the long run for us in in Sweden and the Nordics The energy supply of course is also one thing The demand going forward, but I think here for example, Sweden it It's we see numbers that it needs to double its electricity demand by 2050 But this is You know, it's far worse in in in flap and in in in Dublin, for example So I think it's important to put these things in perspective I think talking about the the energy I think we also in the industry need to a little bit reflect on how we We measure things So with that, I mean that there are for example, we are talking about the power usage effectiveness And that is of course We we we measure the amount of power used by the it workload against the amount used To power and cool it But I think what we also need to start to look at at the end the industry start to to discuss is actually the power capacity effectiveness So actually the total power that is consumed Compared to the total power capacity that is installed So this is This is something where the cloud companies are very good at because they can move their data a little bit all over them So that they have They are really using Every every megawatt if it's a big site And but the colos are tied to SLAs where they are in average only using 50 to 60 percent So the shortage of energy we we really need to look at is it a real shortage. Yeah There's a lot of waste going around. There was actually some something that we're talking about With our previous guests as well around the the the loss of power through through green transportation through power transportation But then also how data centers sometimes are not using power efficiently And all the energy that comes in Yeah, sorry, that's kind of interesting because we have also been looking at it because we have been kind of accused of using so much power But when it really comes down to it, I think it's really really important to look at real numbers and recently rise research Institute of Sweden have done a report Where they have really got into the integrity of this And looking at it and it's been on the request of the energy agency in sweden And so the current energy usage of data centers in sweden is estimated to be around 2.8 to 3.2 terawatt hours in 2022 and adding one Yeah, adding one to one and a half for Cryptomining, but I think this is like these numbers It's not like 100 terawatt hours that someone had Expressed so we really need to have a look at the real numbers here and And what what is what is are we really using because we're we're blocking a lot in the colos But what are we really using? I think picking up on the The figures that you just shared the not important aspect Is the time of those figures because you mentioned 2022 that's very recent figures A lot of times when we talk about data centers, we are using figures from 2012 2015 when it comes to power at least 2012 2015 of course things have changed Dramatically, I mean there's not even comparison to what the sector was 10 years ago. Yes Now this was actually released. I think it's like a week or 10 days ago. So it's really really fresh Exactly There's another big issue that the industry has is like it's Up-to-date data on these very important topics But just going on into the Swedish status in association because you guys are a massive player In everything that happens in the country and also within the the Nordic region What's the the association up to nowadays and what's the plan for the next year or so? In terms of your operations so We have just celebrated that we have now reached 50 members. We were founded in 2019 in in the beginning of the whole covid Challenge that we all Wanted when we wanted to meet we could not do that but We are we are an Industry association that is actually focusing Not only it's not only the operators is also the service and product providers And actually companies that are interested in the data center industry So what we have been recently focusing very much on is what you actually talked to your previous john booth about It is the legislation coming on in EU So this is there are a couple of things there that we are Yeah, really really want to be on top of and is that's really crucial, of course for our members going forward We are really welcoming to measure sustainability Because of course we do believe it or we know that the the numbers will kind of Show real facts that even stronger that the the Nordics is a is a good place to to place your data center but It needs to be in a in a wise way. It's not yeah not It needs to be done in a yeah proper and and good way. So that's what we're working really hard on We also have different working groups. So around both skills and education Sustainability, we're doing quite a lot of webinars, which are actually free So once a month Approximately we have different topics Um John booth is coming up. Uh, who is going to talk about sustainable digital infrastructure facts Facts or fiction, which is going to be the 23rd of March We also have a panel at um, a fair called stock on tech the 4th of May Where the former minister of energy and digitalization? cashier Parma bar We have a represent Someone representing amazon and also a couple of kolo companies where we would discuss how Well, the future of digital infrastructures And how we are actually an enabler of the digital development. So that's that's a very Exciting things going on right now full on agenda But I'll join a couple of those events to be honest And just before we we finish quickly because you've already mentioned rise And I know that plays a big part in your day-to-day life as well. So talk us very briefly what rise really does And your involvement with uh with them. Yeah, so uh from april I will take rise is actually The abbreviation for research institutes of sweden And from yeah end of april I will start to work as business and innovation executive together with a team that actually works with the infrastructure and cloud data center test environment So that's actually a world leading test at an innovation center Which focus on digitalization and it's right at the infrastructure So companies like meta, virtue, ericsson, wattenfall, bp kastrel as very well as highly interesting startups Like submer blix nexelus and besiro are a few of the companies that are already joined the journey Are partnering with ice fire ice So, uh, it's actually a way of getting different big companies small companies in one neutral platform And they're kind of the projects are directly company funded or partly funded by the swedish energy agency EU or swedish innovation agency So virtue is looking at sustainable data center infrastructure bp kastrel at immersive liquid cooling startups like besiro Has a new innovative software technology which enables higher Query speeds in large databases So they can increase the speed with more than 150 percent and the conventional algorithms And nexelus are looking at direct water cooling of service service the actual cpu of it So it's really really high tech and And in the forefront of of the development of sustainable data centers So it's it's interesting. We see we see quite a lot of trends as well So there it for example with natural gas as a power source and liquid cooling Instead of air cooling. Um, so that those things are things that of course have been discussed But we have actually in this facility up in luio tested this So with the natural gas as a backup power instead of diesel generators Or can be used as main power source And the liquid cooling so I think that's interesting because metha announced in late 2022 That all their data centers will be cooled with liquid cooling by 2030 So instead of air cooling. So this is kind of pushing things and the development as well So super interesting It's it's very interesting and again He goes back to your concept that you mentioned before around the circular economy It's not just about getting the operators anymore And I remember well going to stalking in 2016 And the whole thing was just it was pretty much just operators And at the time the market that's where the market was at the time But now it evolves to encompass the entire circle economy But then so isabel if you want to reach out to to find out more and to maybe join the association What's the best way the best way is to go on on on On our website with which is sdia.se as in sweden Um, and also to have a look at the rise which is easy. It's r i dot s e As in rise Yeah, easy to remember. Otherwise, it's just to reach out on linkedin where If you want to reach me personally and I can tell you more Okay, sounds good. Well isabel it has been a pleasure I'm always quite excited to see what happens in the nordics and especially within the stockom region But it would suit and not just even in stockom outside of stockom and all the other places So very interesting. So thank you so much for joining us and And to our viewers. Thank you for tuning in into jsa tv live Don't forget to check our social channels for more content and until next time. Happy networking Thanks