 Okay, it's By the clock on the wall, which we use as the official time two minutes after 6 30 so we are starting slightly late, but I'd like to call this meeting out of the City of Lewinowski's development review report to order I'm I'll introduce the board to begin with here and also I want to I I suppose begin with a very minor change to the Normal procedure and that is because we're being taped and because we don't want to keep our friend and Colleague here any longer than absolutely necessary We'll collect the evidence on each of the cases before the DRB tonight. We have two cases and Then move on to deliberate them after we have collected all of our evidence, which means that The camera can be shut down the city of Lewinowski will save a little bit of money and gentlemen in charge of the camera will be able to go home to his Familiar surroundings Stick it out with us in deliberation So I'm Doug Johnson. I'm the chair of development review board on my right Starting at the end of the table is Matt Bassowitz and next to him in between him and me is y'all and On my left is David Weisberger We are missing two members of the committee the vice chair Kevin Lumpkin and the secretary Harlan Miller But we have a quorum and we are prepared to do business and Ready to launch From an administrative sense and we have new people coming in it's extremely important to note That anybody who has any interest and be in an interested party in one of the two cases before us that is the Somil school Conditional use hearing and the appeal of the zoning administrators Decision 276 is it 276 107 107 East I'm sorry 107 West Spring Street Needs to sign in there's a separate sign in the list for each of the cases In this hearing and in order to preserve your rights to be a party party going forward on that case you have to Be recognized as signing in or you have to write a letter in a very short period of time to the city Indicating your interest in that status and if you wish to speak at this meeting you need to be in interested party every public meeting in Vermont requires a Opportunity for public comment. This is now your opportunity to comment on Anything that is germane to the city Is there anybody who would like to make a public comment? I have one negative Affirmative negative and a lot of silent people Okay, I will assume that everybody has had a chance to speak if they wish to speak Hearing no one and seeing no one making such a move. We will move on So we have Two cases which I have mentioned And I need to tell you what the development review board does The minutes Sorry about that. I should have somebody I should turn to Erin Okay, we have the minutes of the previous meeting Before us Does anybody have any amendments Hearing no amendments, I'll entertain a motion to approve I'm not sure we approve the minutes. I will second that motion has been made and Seconded that the minutes be approved all in favor say aye. Aye You need us me unanimously accepted So our first item of business is a public hearing This is a conditional use review for two seventy six Alan Street, I guess I should should I read the description of the development review board Eric is that Necessity that is up to you. I'm gonna for that on this occasion So the normal procedure is is to Have someone present the case and then to Have a Rebuzzle or an alternative view of that Case it is also our procedure to query the person who Makes the initial presentation and the members of the committee make those kinds of Questions and try to elicit As comprehensive an information base as we can Then anyone else who wishes to speak and to ask questions of person who makes the presentation or to Present alternative evidence or have you can do so Addressing the board with their marks in order to be able to present something or to Participate in the meeting as in a spoken kind of way. I need to swear you in so with everybody who in Case of the 26 East Ellen Street Issue wishes to speak would you Raise your hand and Swear up to me Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the evidence you shall give? Relative to the cause now under consideration Shall be the whole truth and nothing but the truth on the pain under the pain and penalties of perjury You are now all dolly sworn in pain may legally speak Thank you My name is Greg grab it open rabbit or architects, and I'm representing the applicants of the Belvedere Academy Belvedere Academy We are here to request conditional use determination for an existing structure at 276 East Allen Street If I could use your pointer, okay It probably be easier for me to do it. Thank you So this is the this is the industrial Park right here at the highway exit this very white Rectangle here in the corner is an existing structure that sort of talked behind that. It's actually an ancient sawmill Sometime old sometime ago was converted into an office building And it has that vacant for the last few years But the Belvedere Academy would like to if with your permission Use that as the home for a school for a special student population That they that they are currently operating in Essex Junction around the corner and The building is roughly 7,000 square feet in two stories. They're going to take lease hold over the entire thing Right now they don't need the entire building, but they're going you know going to grow into it They are limited on the top end as far as how many students they could see but initially their student populations fairly low they deal with kids who who need extra help getting through school for lots of reasons and We According to the building code anyhow educational you any anything that has six or more as many as six students Is an educational use? so We are asking for you to help us make that happen the students themselves don't drive the Numbers the maximum number of students John 30 so they'll be capped out at 30 students and There's a lot of a lot of direct attention kids kids They can get meals there. They can you know they get help learning out of bathe and stuff That's it's it's a comprehensive kind of program but I don't know much more to say about it the exterior of the building won't change in any way the interior is going to stay mostly like it is with some minor renovations to provide shower facilities laundry facilities that sort of thing That's the existing floor plan and there's Proposed layout so there'd be a handful of classrooms a sort of kitchen dining area Where kids participate in the preparation of food and also the eat lunch There's also the opportunity for kids kids in certain situations to to bring food home with them But essentially I think it's it's a pretty good fit for the Belvedere people and It would be great for the city to get this vacant property back in the more economic use So very straightforward. I don't know if you have any questions or I have two questions. Did you say that the students don't bribe? They're not driving there Sure, yes, could you identify yourself? What's that? Could you identify this Tim Feeney? I'm my title is Chief Knowledge Officer, which is a fancy title, which we don't know what it really means I'll use the mic So our kids do not drive So the homeschool districts are responsible for transportation some kids come in vans some kids come in cabs There are probably two periods. It's well. There are there are gonna be two periods of time during the day where they will probably be as many as six or seven Vehicles dropping kids off and then coming back out morning Morning 7 30 afternoon 2 o'clock 2 30 And then the other question also programmatic question. Do they spend any time outside? Yes So part of our pro so they spend time outside around the building, but they also spend time off off property as well, so Our program is designed to basically teach kids How to interact in a meaningful way in the community learn skills in the community So they they there is a part of the day where they spend in academic instruction Then there's other parts of the day where we're out with kids, but yes, they will also use the area around So there's a little green space over on the side right there and a little green space on the other side There's also where those boxes are That's now empty. So we envision basically putting up a basketball hoop and using that as sort as an area where kids can do some exercise around there Have you talked with the? Landlord as it were or whoever is in charge of the space about those Yes, the landlord is aware of what our school is and how we intend to use the all of that area And you have you have permission to use that. Yes, whatever changes. Yes And you will put some sort of a net behind the basketball Backboard so that balls don't go over the edge and down into the well We could then turn that into some exploratory learning. No, we would try to figure out how we can Yes, it's an extremely steep slope. Yes after off the off the back as a slope But there's enough that with the property now There's enough brush and some other things that I don't think that anything would actually get to that part of the slope But if you're if that's a concern, of course, we can do that My I would differ with you Kids have a remarkable propensity for getting things into places where they shouldn't I looked back there. There's actually a fence between where those Containers are and the slope I guess I didn't look close enough I guess I didn't look close enough Can't see it from this picture No, I mean I did go there I did look I just see it's a kind of version of male refrigerators You can see the beer but you can't see it. It's been moved Did you have enough parking on site for for staff and any vehicles you may need for the program? Yes, so we at maximum we would have two vans and With that whole area, there's more than sufficient staff our total staffing would be 13 Okay, so yeah parking wouldn't we don't anticipate that being a problem at all Okay I wasn't sure if that large area was more of a truck turn around for the building or if you could actually designate spots Yeah, okay, and the the existing use as an office space of 7,000 square feet The project was previously approved Yeah for that. Okay. Did they have a sign to parking in Place so we actually didn't show the demised area Here but we have we come out along the industrial building And then cut across there and have Stripes they can strike it for 20 spaces at the at the end of the building The green back up to you know, if you had Yeah Back back they left left left right there where that is go back and then back to the building jogging where the industrial building Don't count on the basketball, okay Is that there will be a cap of 30 students what's determining that is that a state standard by the number of teachers That is so as an independent school We have to make an application to the state agency of education and given the the number of staff We have we end the size of the space that seemed like the most reasonable large number that we would ever be able to Handle in terms of that space and in terms of the kind of program that we have So it's part of us part of it is us Asking the state for that number and that is based on our experience with the kids and that's in a space like that Soon anticipate our asking for an increase No No, is this an expansion off of your Essex? It's a relocation right it's basically twice the size of the place that we're in right now, okay You have how many students no 13 Somewhere I saw the figure 50 No 30 is so we are limited by our license from the agency of education to no more than 30 You anticipate that some of the students will walk in We do currently have three kids from Manus two kids from Manuski I Don't know that they would be in walkable distance So with the current population no, but is it possible? Yes Are you worried about students crossing the street? For example, do they get free time they go off-site? So our kids are middle schoolers and high schoolers, so they're not young kids We do a risk assessment for every student if we thought there was an issue with a kid that would we had a safety issue We have a series of protocols in place to make sure that No kid would get out in a way that we would feel would be unsafe Do we think our kids will walk around the area? Yes, we do So you would you would program them effectively to try to make sure that they Unstood Traffic difficulties there. Absolutely had a very serious accident in that area just Within the last couple of months It would be I think for me a really serious concern that kids would I know how kids like to explore sure. I have grandchildren the explorer aggressively Mm-hmm, and they explore in places that they often to explore and Well, all of that is part of a process of learning. Nonetheless. It's a risk Yeah, so we we take that risk very seriously and again we have a protocol that we assess against those risks and the amount of time with him or The distance a student could Move away from the program is a function of how we have been able to assess their risk We have a number of kids who are so our kids are pretty street savvy kids And so we have a number of kids that so in our current setting We're close we're actually closer to The extension of East Island all the way into s6 junction It's I remember the name of the street in the equivalent in s6 junction So we're at Pearl Street, but the main cross where yeah, but where our kids are Closer to the main drag where we are right now. And so we have a lot of experience Figuring out how to manage that with kids One thing that you might have less experience with it is the trucks that load Building and you're going to be very Approximately to that I agree, but having said that The the post office is right next to our school So we have the big postal trucks pulling in front all the time and around the back is big lots And so we have 18 wheelers moving in and out. So the traffic will be a different pattern, but We anticipate what we'll do is understand that pattern and once we have an understanding of that pattern We'll then be able to figure out how are we going to best manage to say, you know, we anticipate I would anticipate that there'll be times will say, okay We know that there's a lot of movement here now So we have to be more vigilant with our kids at these times and less concerned at these times Which is how it's emerged in our current set Do you know offhand the typical traffic pattern for the trucks that load in those loading docks? Is it off? Is it that small spur to the left of the larger building or is it around the Everybody comes in from East Allen here. Yeah, how do they get to the loading docks? I would I would if I were driving And I know because there's a circular driver They'll go wherever but if I were driving that comes straight in and back into those Okay, the spots and that's what we see mostly So I'll supply a warehouse. There's some some other warehousing kind of things in there is that Trailers are there for a while So what what I noticed was this is where most of the traffic is that's the electrical supply place There's a bay there. There's a bay here. There's a bay here I didn't I in the time so I've been there a number of times at various points of the day And I have not seen a lot of activity here There most of the activity is over here that I've seen now I can't say that I've we've done a time study But that was just my observation across the numbers of times a day Both buildings have the same landlord, correct the same owner I guess my concern would be Large 18-wheeler is coming through right in front of the school knowing that there may be kids playing Right there, you know It might be possible to regulate truck traffic To that spur to make sure that they don't come right in front of the school I don't know that that's 18-wheeler kind of truck. I think it's panel truck more than anything I don't I again, I don't I'm not expert, but it didn't So I again Two thoughts on that one is that space is not 18-wheeler friendly coming around so but I mean I'm sure they can either could make it in there. Yeah That's number one number two. We have a lot of 18-wheeler's around where we are now And again our way of dealing with that is we know what the patterns are at big lots And we know what the patterns are at the may at the post office And I would anticipate we would do the same kind of thing and say where do we see the frequency of use? number one, then there's a programmatic side, which is Helping the kids recognize There's 18-wheeler's coming in. What do you what are you going to do about it? And how are you going to manage yourself? So programmatically, you know, I think I'm very confident with our risk assessment that we can manage that But I would it would be Incorrect me to say I know exactly what the pattern is but I have spent time there and it looks like mostly local delivery panel trucks But I would also guess that there must be some big deliveries that we I just haven't seen I think a really big truck would have trouble threading. Yeah, I think so that's between the building Yeah, it's just because it you I mean you've been there. It's narrow and it's got a little corner to it Yeah, it's it's tight. I saw a pickup truck with an attached trailer going by them But that's that's an eight-wheel that's on a small scale And most of the trucks seem to be Within the you all range What are your normal business hours Our staff arrive at seven and And leave around 3 30 the students start at eight and leave at two So there's no sleepover and there is no There's very very limited extended use correct we have odd staff that stay later To do the work that they need to do to make sure that they're prepared for kids But it's not but normal course of business there might be one or two people there after five I don't worry about adults, but it is a secluded site But they're gone they're gone by 230 We have events with families Those are episodic and often part so I mean Greg had talked about cooking So part of what we do is we also extend our service out to families So there are times will we bring we'll have family members come in just to help them learn how to Be a family around food, but that's not that's not a weekly. It's an episodic process, it's It depends on the family needs and those kind of things They're appropriate lady It's the most well-lit place. I've ever been in my life Every Every every foot and a half there's another fluorescent Some sorry, I was think I was outside. It's also what so outside It's on all the corners are lit and in the center. So there's three large light. I don't know what they call clean lights that point out and There's actually a light on the back too And then what about accessibility within the building itself like accessible on the first floor, but not the second So the ground floor is fully accessible. There's an ADA compliant ramp at the front door Our plan at the moment is to is to defer putting in an elevator Until such time as we have a student presents that need Processing a waiver application with the state to Because of the nature of the school They have the ability to kind of move program space around to make a reasonable accommodation and Elevator service was just deemed to be Disproportionately expensive relative to the cost of the job. Is there a place on the building that you could put it in? Right here by the front door. We could we could at least accommodate a Limited use lift which would also take an exception from the code to get but it seems a lot more reasonable given the size of the population But we've also thought been thoughtful about how we're arraying the program so that in the anticipation that we did have a kid Who needed a ramp? All of it all of the services that you would need would all be on the first floor So that you would not miss and that by that is also a requirement for the state to education You have to demonstrate that if there's a there's differences between floors That you would not miss out on a program service because of your disability So we thoughtfully laid it out in such a way that all of the kinds of services that you need are available to you on the first floor and And all the interior doorways toilet facilities drinking fountains those are those will all be compliant with Stay-law and Accessibility can you get it done? Can you get it renovated by the start of school? Well, it's not likely going to be the start of school What will happen is they'll continue to conduct business at the Our post office Plaza until this is ready We still hope to do it this fall. I don't know that it would be September 1 or October 1st That's probably more a function of the construction climate And our ability to get just get somebody in there and get the work done but but The school will survive in their current location until this location is ready to go Anybody in the audience Group assembled here wishes to ask a question Kind I would just summarize our presentation by thanking you for your time. This is a this is a Service that is needed in the county And I think it will be a positive addition to Winooski to to have this here both in terms of putting this unused space to work But also to have to have access to this sort of thing It does serve the whole county, but we think it's a good proposal and we We ask you for a positive finding. I think we're done. Thank you. Thank you very much Well, thank you for the care you're taking in preparing this Okay, now we move on to our second agenda item Public hearing that appeals the zoning administrators decision 407 West Spring Street Could could you I believe mr. Koski's here who is the person appealing tonight. I Think so, yes, we would like that. That would be nice if you I First I'm not appealing the project in any way other than the storm water. That's my only issue is the water The runoff and the property, but I also want to correct a couple of things in the staff memo It mentions that there's a for I Got that Sorry, Shane, we have to leave that open. We believe we have to leave our open for because it's a public meeting Sorry They're got they're going Okay, no So the memo mentions there's four catch basins on the property that have to be preserved to maintain And there's one I thought that I thought there was two but I cleaned out what I thought was the second one And it looks like it's just holding up the driveway. It's like a weird something or other So I don't know why the memo says there's four catch basins and the Application says there's a single family home, but it's a two-unit there's two apartments in it and Third the owner is listed as Linda creep, but the land record show that it's Kevin and Michael creep But confused about who's applying probably none of that relevant but I Don't know Well owners who's provided a signature I checked with the tax The town clerk she says that it's owned by Kevin and Michael Crete and I did a title search and the deed says his property zone by Michael Kevin creep just found it weird Yeah, the property ought to at least know what's on what's on This is why Okay Maybe the deed hasn't been filed yet or something happens sometimes. No, I think this is a property ownership of long stand My belief but that Linda owns it pardon that When I believe the treats in some form Right Kevin and Michael not Linda I But Linda would be Kevin's wife I Had no idea why I Just think the person I signed rather than owns it's supposed to apply because she may have owned it originally Yeah, pass it on to her son. It's the question is does it invalid? That you know, I'm not gonna argue that but it's important for state applications and stormwater and at 250 stuff You know, they've they've subdivided a lot of properties Linda the mom I doubt she's been doing much development recently What we're talking stormwater We're talking who owns the property too because I have to go further with this. I have to be dealing with the right parties and I think I Think the memo that I wrote covers what my issues are that I'm a lower property I thought that there had to be a Specific stormwater plan for new development, but I'm reading the memo. Maybe not because it's a certain amount to undisturbed property but as it is now it has no stormwater Plan at all There's a catch basin that has never been maintained. It's caving in should I give you photos of it? That one in circle that's just holding up the drive Well the civil plan notes that two of them were not found I don't know who told them they were there but the first approval I got said the city owned them and see who's gonna maintain them and then several weeks later I gotta know that They I think a man was as they talk to staff Well, I guess you can pass them there and I can enter them into the record if you want as well where On the property can you point out where these are? There's a one. Okay Okay, so it's not There's one of those photo shows where it is, but it hasn't been maintained at all so it's caving in Which is why I'm worried about the requirement that if you maintain because it never has been in the past And oddly I can't see an outlet. I can see if you see a pipe going in there That's the inlet from waters coming from somewhere. I don't know The man across the street who's lived here for 80 years says that there's an underground stream that goes through there because his lot is collapsing on the other side of the road And so is the road So I'm just worried if that gets filled in. Where's that water going to go? So what do you notice during storms? What happens? I can't get there and the storm is there So I notice Like today, it's almost to the bottom But like the next day if I get there when there's a storm it fills up to it's very deep It fills all the way almost up to the top in the winter. It's frozen. So nothing goes in and all the water from that roof Just goes on to my property. Where is the one that you can see? I Have a photo you have a photo there that shows where it is You know, it's hard to place exactly where the property well the similar right there trees It looks like the civil engineer located one on the property right in the middle And it's also showing on here is there is somebody from the civil engineer here Should we wait And I noticed in the memo says that first is the town thought these Catchways since we're theirs and then it looks like they talked to past staff Got data from somewhere in city mapping But I don't have any of that information till they look at it to see how they figured out that first they were and then they weren't Because I didn't get that in the packet So I can't really talk about it. Which is your property I'm not little house to left to facing No, one over In front of the two cars that you see in the back parking lot To the right And I'm lower I'm like a foot lower because they must have kept propping up the driveway years ago Everything but just I'm trying to wrap my head around where this is is this the storage unit that had a fire My worry is the project is going to disturb something also with those storm drains and you know, none of the water is going to be addressed I'm just going to end up with a swimming pool in the backyard Yeah, but it Well could have gutters or you know This way not that way There's a slight there's a slight slope to the driveway to the to the road Yes Towards the back It doesn't it doesn't slope this way it's straight out and this way Because it's a West West brings you to the hill that just keeps going down Is the current roof on the storage unit is it a gavel roof like this one or is a flat Oh sure You see Most of the It would appear that The next door property is the original surface and everything else I'm probably the oldest house everybody just decided they'd just add fill around me Guess I didn't get on the program Early early This be a cabinet But it's huge Her house is like a foot below the street level the base of her house and originally she has like concrete thing goes along There's You never sent an agreement you're not gonna do with a handshake you had to send something right I think that's not relevant I'd rather not do this Thank you So What what are you looking for I want some some sort of Explanation of how they're going to deal with the runoff on the new project and What's going to happen with that stormwater drain that's been there forever Which has never been maintained and is collapsing Okay, is there anything else that you want to tell us? I don't think so just What ultimately are you looking for you know what ultimately is is the ideal solution here from a stormwater perspective Obviously as he says I'm lower I'm going to get some runoff, but I think that there has to be Some sort of written plan on how they're going to deal with it in the new project and the new roads How they're going to deal with a runoff from their property. There's there's nothing There's an existing runoff there today Hold on you've got a chance to talk mm-hmm There's an existing runoff today right and are you looking for this project to reduce that runoff or I Think I think a new project Looks like the regulations require maybe not maybe not has to show how it deals with runoff in some way the only thing required is that The applicant maintain the existing catch basins and if you look at those catch basins, that's how he maintains things You know and it's not collecting the water You know, I'm not asking like for a stormwater pond or whatever But like show me the if gutters that you're actually sending it in the back and Say anything but that one catch basin isn't going to get anything from that new project. It's not even going to be near it And I don't even know if it's a catch basin It looks like just a giant cistern for water that's coming from a stream up the hill If that gets filled in there's going to be Flooding for both of us And that's it Thank you. Thank you. Thank you Carl from Uliri Burke Carl March or so from Uliri Burke. I worked on these plans Our main emphasis is about stormwater the reason we didn't really write a narrative Is basically on sheet two I wanted to emphasize the outline of you know, the extravagance of that existing building And so I don't know if you can zoom in to Like right in here. Yeah, it's kind of it's fairly subdued on the plan, but That building occupies basically 66 percent of the lot in terms of impervious coverage and We're acquired by the regulations to be under 50 percent so There's going to be a huge amount of runoff reduction and also We're not going to put a foundation in it's going to be like a slab so it's going to be just the regular frost wall type situation and so If you're looking at the stormwater regulatory stuff We don't need to get a permit because the whole law is you know, less than an acre so The our sort of rationale is doesn't matter what number of we run if we're Reducing impervious we're going to have less runoff The other thing is we're trying to hold the building sort of centered so that we'd have more green space on both sides So we have you know, keep it flat And more of an opportunity for you know, natural infiltration The other thing is obviously when we rip that building apart The ground's going to be all fluffed up and if we're looking at the new regulatory Stuff is in terms of stormwater if we did have to get a permit We're basically employing strategy where you know, you rototell everything and you kind of fluff the dirt up So it doesn't matter really what the soil is there. I mean, we're not amending the soil necessarily but By sort of disturbing it There's going to be more infiltration than there was before and obviously a fair amount of you know, less impervious And we left a little buffer between The pavement there on the south side for you know more infiltration and obviously to the north There's going to be all that sort of area We didn't do a really a grading plan simply because it's relatively flat And we have to tie into the existing pavement sort of heading north And so the strategy is you know minimization of grade And introduction of infiltration to the maximum extent and we didn't run any numbers Like I said simply because we're reducing the amount of impervious So as far as the catch racing goes, um, I think I should talk about that a little bit Oh, absolutely. Yeah, we can go one step at a time. I'll let you To that what's your best estimate of how much Water you're going to be able to absorb in that We didn't do any infiltration testing simply because the enormous just Just the pure amount of reduction So we could do infiltration testing, but it's going to Tell us that there's going to be less runoff So we didn't look at the soils in terms of infiltration because you know what the runoff level is now uh, it's It's all impervious coming off that roof and it's right to the property line as you can see on that plan So it's going right on to her property now I mean a good portion of it But is the requirement just that you reduce the amount of runoff from what's there now? Or is it that you this I'm reading from here. It says Our management system shall be designed to accommodate existing and anticipated runoff from this site How so design a system if you don't Look at why you don't say decide what you so it typically like we look at we look at design of a system when Needing a design is basically having more than an acre and because we're less than an acre and we're going to reduce the amount of impervious Um, that's why we didn't really compute any numbers. I mean we can run numbers But it's going to convey that there's less runoff So no matter what the I mean we you can fabricate a model And you can put in all the parameters and then you run the pre and post and it's going to relay that You know post development we're going to have less runoff because there's less impervious So that's why we didn't go through the exercise simply because it's such a small project and it doesn't necessitate You know that level of scrutiny we didn't feel because it's so so small and And the other thing is we're talking about disturbing the soil Typically If you're disturbed more than acre you need a state permit like a construction journal permit and You can go get one for 100 bucks and then you abide by the lowest hand Here we're not even going to stir two tenths of an acre, which is your regulatory Body for this city Winooski, which I think is great that you're going to take jurisdiction on more than what the state would But it doesn't even come into play here because we're not going to disturb even that much and so We don't need a state permit and I don't believe that we need you know a regulating body for construction journal permit in terms of the city Winooski, but Obviously, you know, I think everybody's familiar with the lowest handbook and we're going to abide by that without questions I mean during construction, it's going to manifest itself to digging up an excavated hole and We're going to contain all our stuff on our own site while the foundation's going in and then as soon as the foundation's in We're going to stabilize seed mulch So that's that's the sort of you know In the small-scale situation, you know, what what we intend to do Uh the catch basin on the street, is that a city catch basin? I believe it is Okay, because so it does show you to do show it connected that was just an assumption early on actually We were told by Winooski we work with public works pretty closely and the sort of pink line that shows up on the plan On the existing conditions I don't know if you have the existing conditions for the ortho, but I have it here if you don't Um I think I should show you guys this What's the dashed line between the double dashed line between the catch basins on that plan? Relating to the street so that line was the city's best guess at connection And I have more information on that because I spoke with john show just recently and I'll I'll give you guys some information But if you look at this, um plan They gave us this coordinate this coordinate and this coordinate To sort of plumb down where they anticipate their storm system was and so that's what we did So we showed that pink line is they wanted that part of the record Because they were sort of evaluating whether it was city owned or not I mean now we know for sure it's not So those catch basins are kind of in ruins So I spoke with john show about it and our best guess is that it's basically like a stone line filled pipe That goes all the way to the 99 Longer map And I have a map of that here that I sent to john show and we spoke on the phone about it And we're in agreement that that is This trajectory of that storm system and it's not even connected to the city street so This is the catch basin system here And it goes under the street not connected to the current system here, and it goes all the way down to the 99 here the problem is Is it's been cut by this? And you know basically developments have occurred since and so it's a system that goes to nowhere, but it has the Sort of perception that it takes on water because it definitely does But I think it's infiltration capacity increased by The underground stone that's in place now And so I think that's why the city's taking the position that it's not owned by them Because they really have no jurisdiction of it's on private property And it goes to the road that doesn't even connect to their city system. So how would they have? Sort of control of it I mean I think moving forward for a solution, I think you know We're fine with preserving that system. I mean, I think there's probably a bunch of stone And it's real deep because it doesn't it's so deep that it doesn't want to connect to this current system that's there now So I don't think we want to dig up west spring street to find out And I don't think the city does either and I think it's in our best interest to leave it alone But I think to utilize it as an overflow or whatever We definitely want to preserve it. I mean we're planning on Doing our stuff so that we're not going to disturb or disturb to the you know At least we're not we don't want to disturb it at all, but it's in ruins like I said, so We want to leave stone to the surface so that it has the ability to be used but effectively we're relying on infiltration and Minimization or you know runoff reduction. That's our that's our goal. That's our plan Do you have procedures? Sorry. Do you have procedures to ensure that the soil ends up fluffy during the construction? Oh, yeah, I mean I talked about it with Rick I mean we're gonna we want to hardly rake it to the point where you know, we're gonna Basically fluff it up as much as we can whatever's there There is actually a procedure I mean we came up with a detail But I didn't put it on here because it doesn't have straight state jurisdiction But I think the state's headed in the right direction talking about runoff reduction not just you know Trying to You know do pre and post and just let it go So I think it's important to try to infiltrate to the greatest extent possible And then so everything is not shown as pavement here is grass Yeah the intention Yeah, I mean we specifically left a little buffer there I mean we are obviously we want to stay under our 50 percent But I was trying to move the building as far north as I could we actually had a further north To minimize, you know some runoff to her property to the greatest extent, but Obviously the more I move it north, you know We increase our impervious by the little sidewalk that we need to gain access to the units and So, you know, we wanted to stay under the threshold of 50 So that's what we're trying to do. I yeah, we basically we took the building and we moved it south until we hit, you know Like 49.6 So I didn't want to be 50.0 So That's how it came to be where it is I mean, it's it's worthy to know and it's very clear on the existing conditions plan like we're 66 percent I mean, it's a pretty significant Reduction. I mean that outline of the existing building isn't on there By mistake, it's on there for a purpose like I want to I want people I want to emphasize the fact how big that building is and It's a direct runoff right onto her property So I think, you know, it's a really a win-win. I mean we're going to tear that building down We're going to reduce the amount of runoff and I think it's actually going to help her Like day one as soon as I believe to come down It's definitely going to reduce the runoff because you know roof there's As soon as you get a quarter inch of rain, it's right on her property So without question, it's it's going to reduce the amount of runoff on her property Oh, will there be gutters on this building? Um, you know again And where will that downspout go to a block and just run off? We're going to we're going to send the soil Like um Out towards the block where that shit is in the behind the building And that's where our roof runoff is going to go all the rest of it in the front Is level is like a level parking lot or not We'll taper it the other way because there's a big bank on the runoff on the east side The property on the east side so we can taper a parking lot towards his property And then natural it'll naturally leach into the green space All right, so so the downspout will come down onto a block and you'll aim that out to the north to the backyard And as part of it we have to remove that little shed, but you know it And and the driveway will be tapered away from her property I'm going to replace the fence at the front door down put a silk fence along there And um You know, I'll be tapered towards towards the street naturally And then the rain is on the house as the existing that's going to stay there We didn't do a formal grading plan just as a magnitude but correct me if I'm wrong Rick But when you go to the north you're going to create a little depression for water to sort of store to the north I mean as part of it we're going to remove that little shed And then so doing we it'd be easy to create like a little pocket on the north to even have a little more additional storage And we're willing to do that correct Not all but we're to the north. Oh to the north. Yeah, a little depression to the north Yeah That's what we talked about because it is sort of It's fairly flying and it's it's unfortunate that her property is lower For sure. So we definitely considered that as well We're Insurance appeal she mentions that the existing The one catch patient she's found yeah as overflowed in the past I think I think it's a I think it's a solution of water just You know you get to the point where it just can't take any more water because it's blocked off Further to the south across the street So it just it can only take so much water than it sits and then overnight you come back and it's all gone But I think it's moving very slowly now. Does it make more sense to try to remove That portion of the system to prevent the overflow to prevent the pooling and potential freezing Upon your direction, I think we'd be willing to absolutely look at that into that because we I think rick was talking You know to her about maybe you know trying something there and Without really knowing in the city not knowing really what's there. I mean we we're definitely willing to investigate To help her out. I think she if she If she wanted to I think the wisest thing to do would be both in the process of running that Strawberry in the street go through the brain process Tap it in new white But we're not it's not going to help us at all. So we're not going to pay for that But it's on your property. Yeah And your responsibility, isn't it? What's that? It's on your property. It's your responsibility, isn't it? It's a goes to nowhere. There's nothing it goes into there and it filters in the stone. It doesn't there's no pipe I think what rick's trying to say is there's really no incentive for us to install the pipe But I think we'd be willing to you know at some point if we did install the pipe for her benefit, you know On our property, I guess To pick up some of her water. I mean that could be something Maybe a point of discussion perhaps But for us, it's just really Getting rid of the building putting the water on the ground What's your estimate on the amount of A capture on improvement do you have about a third about a third? Yeah, it'll increase the infiltration Capacity by about a third. Yeah And not directly into our property that it's Every I mean, that's a real rough guess. We could run numbers, but it's insignificant I think but it's you know the amount of runoff reduction is going to be significant I think the disparity between pre and post is going to be about a third Does the possibility exist on the map here you have At least two utter catch basins that were called out in the city records that are on the property Does the possibility exist that this water Could it enter the system for these in these two phantom catch basins that may be underground And potential potential Does the potential exist to direct it into the one catch basin we know and potentially overflow it The answer to your question is That's that's really difficult to decipher whether you know, it's a benefit or a disbenefit Instinctively I think It's got to be a benefit. I can't believe that it's backing up to the extent where it's going to make it worse if we took it out or If you don't You know We went with a locator and we didn't find a steel structure there Am I hearing correctly that you're putting a tank in? No, it's already here This is a tank For I mean, what is it captured you got me about a tank? Which one are we talking about the ancient one or Some some that was already been put in in the previous The one that he's talking about isn't the building is is in ruins and it's sort of there now It's sort of collapsed, right? I mean it's all just looks like a big mismatch of stone And it's fairly deep and I think it just makes its way down and follows the stone across the street And then when it fills up it stops and you have the perception that it's backing up It's not backing up. It's just can't take any more water and her property is more like a pool. So it just It's just frozen in the winter. That's when it floods. It does handle the water Um, I think it is the system is collapsing the neighbor across the street Gilbert mungen says his whole lawn has a is caving in he's been talking to the public works for years, but It it does catch water It only overflows in the winter which probably happens to city drains when the underground pipes are frozen It may be as much that underground water is flowing Around whatever no one knows where it goes is the problem and kind of a roady things And causing you know collapse It's not So you're you're not, um, planning to put any kind of Tank with distribution onsite You're you're talking about a a surface Little swirl north side So we're ring water garden kind of thing. Yeah, just a little pressure connected with that various places. Yeah I mean, it's pretty minimal compared to what's there So we feel like it's going to be so much less runoff that if we directed north and do a little depression It will be a better manager of storm water on our own site and minimize the just, you know, the runoff that goes to her property Are you going to put any vegetation into that? Yeah, and we're going to seed mulch it as soon as the foundation's in You're going to what you're going to seed and mulch it so we get grass established as soon as possible Okay, you're not talking to thinking about any Bushes that would evapotranspire and helped I mean unless It's narrow I can see from the street and I can see from the diagram that it's small. I'm not talking about creating a forest You know, if you put a couple of shrubs in it With lots of leaves and leafy bushy things In it, it would tend to evaporate At the transpire from the leaf surface Surprising amounts of water if you pick the right species Yep, if you It would enhance it would enhance if you have plants that you think I mean, I think we're going to be working with And we won't we'd plant some stuff We improved The properties everyone that we built and we do a good job and we have We have flowers in France and something that might Linda She'll make sure that we're going to add that because That's what we do I mean, if you guys have specific ones that you recommend, we definitely take it under advisement, right? I mean, absolutely. We're not tree experts. We're not really we're definitely not plant experts, but if you have any Ideas we're definitely open to putting something in there I'll go back to the the gutter do imagine One long run going towards the north or typically you go down to either side Right, it's going to be I can't remember how the root is okay. We're going to send it. It's going to be um On valleys on our forks is to pick those up But the back back of the root will go north drop down Everything's going to be headed towards the north What about from that? What about reverse? The street end of the duplex No, it'll be headed towards the back of the government I think he's talking about from, you know, basically the dark gray. That's that's paid, you know, that's Last page But but the gutter is going to go From the front of the building close to the parking lot All the way to the back of the lot and then the down spot will be spot will be there Rather than one at the back and one at the front. That's where we'll add the most green space to Any other questions It's a fairly small building as well. So I think that gutter Contribution to the north should be fairly sustainable with a regular gutter. I mean, it's not a very good building Is there anything that we haven't been told by you or rick that we should hear? We could talk about after your decision No, um, I don't think so. I think it's going to be amazing. I want less water. She's going to get Wait when that building's down because a whole entire roof Is dropping right there in the parking lot right now and that's all going to go away It's not just time of concentration either. It's proximity. I mean, you just you got no buffer there whatsoever You see that dark line the hatch line. I mean, it's Right on her right right on the property. There's just no real buffer there There's no opportunity to reduce reduce runoff because the building's so large It's on their property immediately as soon as it starts to as soon as it starts to run And we're going to end up being two feet down below the our existing driveway Which we're going to have to fill in because my goal is to keep that parking lot level with So the water runs out of that parking lot down our driveway and out the street will probably be a place to be as far as that driveway also the existing one and take it away from And then the building we're going to probably have to bring some fill in because like I said, that's really two feet down There's a foundation that's All concrete. I don't know really until we knock it down and dig it up. We don't know what we're going to find How much slope will you be able to get towards the north behind the building? Or it's flat, so you're just going to put it over there We're going to have to excavate and take some material out to do what we're talking about to have the depression And maybe you know some plants like like you guys talked about I think we're going to commit to digging a depression having some material come out or just moving it down Like he said to fill it in Sort of like where the building is going to go just because the existing concrete building is a little bit lower So that's going to come up a little bit And so we're probably just move that material to the north where the building is going to go And that'll create the depression to the north where stone water can you know have more area to infiltrate And really it's just trying to keep it away from you know the front herb property because that's where you know The contribution is the worst of stone water That's why we want to move everything to the north Well, we're still going to put one in there anyways So everybody else who wishes to speak on this Are you do you have something you need to say to us? No, I'm good Okay I want to Dismiss you in the sense that maybe you'll vacate the table. I don't think we have any more questions Thank you. Anybody from your audience who would like to Contribute to the discussion. I'm not I'm not I'm not trying to throw people out. I'm just trying to say we want to Of course Evidence now Yes So we have two cases before this we should take them in order Should we do should we do a full of deliberation? Yes, we have to have a motion to close And Sorry Doug, we were also going to go through city updates and other business so we can dismiss the camera before we Enter deliberations So yeah, so from a city update perspective, I assume you were ready to move for those before we Do deliberations? So from a city update perspective just to let you all know The decision from your last meeting from the june meeting was finalized and signed and and distributed to the To the interested parties the properties were noticed of your decision I'm working on a follow-up based on what the the decision was and we'll issue that Determination when when it is when is that supposed to be our monsoon? It is not we're working on figuring out how to get that on the website I can I can send it to you directly. I've got it scanned And actually that's what I I intend to send it to to the dr. V members directly But we are looking at putting it on on the website somewhere just a little just a matter of figuring out the best place to put it right now Otherwise, I didn't have any other updates city updates. Anyway On other business Our august meeting will be is scheduled for august 15th the deadline that we've identified for getting materials in for that meeting Is tomorrow july 19th. I haven't received anything to date. So I'll let you know if we have anything By tomorrow afternoon or tomorrow Probably monday and then determine if we still want to hold that That august meeting or to finalize some other business that we've started or Take a month off. So Those are the only items that I had additional Quick question on the project that's happening on main street to seven It's where uh Dolly Boca is oh, yeah, okay 217 which appears to be fully amended at this point Um, the gray the gray house to the left. Yep. I walked by it nearly every day and I see a massive Rat issue underneath the front porch of that place. You know if that's being Talked about or addressed by anybody. Um, I'm not aware of that. I can make a note and uh, okay And walk by it. You'll see all the reach out to the little tunnels and stuff. Yep My dog goes nuts every time I can pass that along to our uh, our our housing building housing folks and let them know I think it's 217. We'll see it when you go. Okay. I can Give them a heads up on that. Okay. Can I have a motion that we move into the deliberative session? Can we move into the deliberative session? Second. Second. It's been moved and seconded. All in favor Aye We know in deliberative session, okay. You said you want to do that closed