 Hello. Welcome to the second Taiwan Film Week in the Understanding Taiwan Through Film and Documentary series. I'm Zhang Yu. I'm the Deputy Director of the Center of Taiwan Studies at SOAS. And you can see all our colleagues are here. The director is actually the boy controlling the line. And our colleague here, actually Mr. Nicky Ellsford, he's actually controlling your visual pleasure here. And of course our jewel ball here, she's controlling all your visual appearance later on, where we show in our Facebook. So do smile when you see her. Okay. Tonight we are very honored to have a very special guest here. And you must know that you can see Director He Zhao Ti here. So please give her a warm welcome and put your hands together. I think Director He wants to say something to you. Just a few words. Good evening ladies and gentlemen. Very happy to be here. And I'd like to especially thanks to SOAS to invite me to be here in London. So I just see some simple, very short words to you that this film is my earlier work. And it was a very special experience for me. Well it's a story about some gangsters in Southeast Taiwan. So we worked together. The shooting time was about, the production time was about one year. So the shooting crew went there to, we worked together with the gangsters almost like one year. Very special experience. So I look forward to the Q&A session. And welcome any kind of question. Any kind? Anything. Thanks. No worries. I hope you enjoy the film. Thank you. A few words about this film. Sorry. It's my duty to say something about it. Well, tonight we're showing the He Zhaotis 2006 film The Gangster's Guard. And this documentary is a rare feast. Well, you know, because it's combining local rituals, popular religions, and also of course the cinematic magic. Because you can see quite exciting visual treats there. After the screening, of course, she will answer. She said you can ask any questions. Don't ask too naughty questions. He Zhaotis is both a producer and filmmaker. In recent years she has also taken up the post as the production director for the Taiwan Office of the C-next. I suspect it's called Chinese Next. Is that right? It's a particular foundation to promote new documentaries from Chinese society. Thank you very much. So it's C-next, so keep your eyes on that. Because I think they call Beijing, Taipei, and Hong Kong offices. I didn't do my work. Okay, good. And although the subject matters of her works range widely, her films has always focused on minority groups, political issues, and social injustice. In recent years, she's particularly concerned with the devastating effect of globalization and hyper-consumerism on the most disadvantaged groups and, of course, the environment. In contrast to tomorrow's three films, you should come if they're all fascinating, which really deal with the brutal impact of globalization to the local. Tonight's film, The Gangster Scog, presents a different dimension of the rural society in this modern world. So it's quite exciting and a lot of contrast there. So before we show the film, I would like to use the opportunity to thank the Ministry of Culture who grant us the right to show this film. So without their permission, we won't be able to show this. And there's no one here to represent them. So I don't really need to say it. Sorry. Without further ado, let's show the film. Thank you very much. Enjoy it. I have a question about the religious rituals. So among these temples, I mean the smaller temples, how can one recognize which temples are usually so sedated with the dancers? And besides the lanterns, and the statues. And what kind of rituals would these dancers make involved? And I wonder why they don't need to perform. Why they don't need to ask for permission of the god? To design this part of the religious rituals? The question is, are these temples? Yes, there are a lot of temples. So how can one recognize which temples are usually sedated with the dancers? And besides the lanterns, they also have religious rituals. So they can sedate the dancers to perform. So why they don't need to ask for permission of the god? The first question is, in Taidong almost every temple has some connection with the dancers. Actually in Taidong, Taoist temples are mostly sedated. Excuse me, can you repeat the question in English please? I'm not catching everything. The second one, I think I'm loud enough. The gentleman here is actually asking why these people can decide for themselves that they represent the god. Not the certain divine process being decided by the god. Actually the temple director, he could choose who can stand up as the representative of the Han Dynasty. Because you can tell it's something about gods and something about people's life. So when the temple director said, okay you are good enough to stand up, because it's kind of like a, it's not only a ritual, it's also kind of like a show against society. So if you could stand there performing in a very good way, it means people can trust you to have some business with you to get some debt collection or some bigger business, that's true. So that's why I said it's not only about gods, it's also about everyday life, people's life, the connections in business. So the director could choose who can stand up over there. This is a question I didn't hear. Sorry. He was asking, sorry. He was asking is there any other gods similar to this ritual that you need to do? Related, associated with gangster's clothes. Well, as much as I know, because I'm not the religious researcher, I'm not doing the religious research, but as much as I know in Taiwan, only Han Danyi is the gangster scarf. How about from this side to that side? I'm sorry. So you first, then the gentleman there, then you. The orange coat first. Thank you. How did you get permission from the gangsters? How did you get to know them? Permission not only from the gangster's film, but also from their family, because I don't know if it's the same in Taiwan, but the way I come from, people can be really sensitive about showing the family of criminals, because the children's faces are shown. People, they may get bullied at school, or your dad is gangster. How did you get to know this kind of problem? Okay, can we take two questions at a time, then otherwise, you know, we'll put it right up. You are the second. Thank you. I just wanted to know, what is the benefit of a religion or an organized religion to be involved with the gangster community, and vice versa? I would imagine that money is the main influencer and motivator. So is there money involved in this religion? And if so, how does that transpire? We deal with the two things first. Can I add to that, please? No, no, no. Please. Does that religion benefit financially? I don't think, but the thing is, okay, everyone. The first one. Okay. Okay. The second one is, especially how do you think it involved in this kind of organization? The first one, well, it was a very interesting story. I had two colleagues, male colleagues, they came to tie down with me, so we had three of us to visit the director, because we know they are gangsters, so it's very important to get their permission to film them. So it was about one year later before the film was finished. So when we get into the temple, the director's office is not in the temple. It's actually the next door of his home, his place. So we sat down. So he asked my colleagues, what can I do for you? Why do you come to visit me? My colleagues said, she is the film director. She asked her. So the rest said, oh, okay. So she asked me. I told him that, blah, blah, blah, I want to film your story. He said, documentary. And he said, okay. How can I help you? So I thought, does that mean yes? So I asked. And he said, yeah, of course. How could I help you? I thought it was... I wondered why it was so easy because... So he gave you permission to film those two gangsters. Everybody. To film everybody. Under his domain. Because in my... I saw when I was in Taipei, I thought I was very nervous and anxious about that trip. Because I thought, we know they have gone. So my scenarios in my... In my imaginary was, what do you want to film us? To the gangsters. Something like that. So when I got the permission, I was so surprised. I was very happy. But then later it was not very easy. It was very difficult. Why? Not because of their family. But you could tell it's a very... Shyness to society. Yeah. We even always listen to their husbands or their boyfriends. So every woman in front of them, in front of the brothers, they are neither... They are neither the gangsters, female gangsters, colleague or their lover. But I don't want to be neither of that. So when I worked with them, I had to be not like this. I could be very... Nothing. I cannot remind them that I am a female. So I worked as a man. Something like a man's life. So in that way I could be equal to them. To talk about what we want and what we are going to do in the film. And about the family, because the filming time was longer enough, wasn't long enough to build the relationship and the trust between them. So time could solve a lot of problems. So that's the process. And about your question, what is the benefit of money? Not just about money, but the benefit on both sides of the religion and the gangster community. What is the benefit on both sides? I interviewed some people. There was a woman who run a jewelry store. They donate some money. So for example they donate 200,000 pounds to support the fireworks. Some of the percentage of the money they get into the temple, to the director. So in that way those people, those stores, the owners, they support this ritual. So that's why this ritual could run year by year in Tadong. Do they get protections? Yes, the jewelry shop. As a return, so not always about money. But you know, no protections. And golf protection. So are the jewelry owners, are they a part of the religion that's just a payoff? She is kind of like the person like another part of the female role. They are, sometimes they are, she was like their colleague. In Taiwan we say, How do we choose? Female guest. Big sister? Difficult to translate. Yes, then the next two questions. Hi there, my question is how did you write the topic for your documentary? And also in your film? You made a minor script. No, the topic in general is really about dancers. And also, I feel... How did I choose that topic? Yeah, how did it come to you naturally when you were thinking about it? I also feel that in your film you show quite humorous and human side of dancers and who is less intentional than what just happened. Next one, please. My impression is that it's a different human side with the actors coming out. How are they generally perceived in Taiwan? Are they like... I mean, because they're being so open and they're acting in a communal way in their local area. Are they still seen as bad? Or are they just seen as like, we have to tolerate them otherwise. We're going to beat this up or something like that. Do you also think that your film has a special influence in your film? Do you also think that your film has a special influence? Do you also think that your film has a special influence? Why did you choose that topic? This film was... I started at the year 2004 and I think it was in 1997. I was not a film director. I was a writer for a magazine. So I wrote a story about this ritual. At the time I did some research, some kind of field work about these gestures. So I was very curious about if I stayed longer with them, how would this story be? Because when I was a writer I didn't have enough time to know things about them, to know more. Because what they told you was I knew there were more stories but they didn't trust me so they couldn't tell me. Somehow I just thought about those brothers very often. So I think it just happened. Because at the very beginning I just tried because I I didn't believe that they could give me the permission to show them. So I just took myself that okay I'll just try. If I got it then I'll try something more. Then it was a very interesting journey for myself. To make myself to know more about the underworld of Taiwan. About other topics as well. Not just about gangsters but how about other topics because it's very different. Because there are topics. This one? Impression. Yeah of course people in Taiwan, in Taidong they looked down upon those gangsters or others but for me it was it was not like that because the gangsters in Taiwan they are very different kinds of gangsters and the gangsters in Taidong like the Handanian gangsters they didn't really do things as serious or as terrible as the west coast of Taiwan. So for me there must be some reason to make them like that. Some political, economical background. So as much as I knew it was like some economical issue in their parent's family couldn't support them to have better education. So they had no choice they could only choose a life like that. But for people in Taiwan most of the people they looked down upon them so this ritual is very rich for me because for a year for the 365 days they are living in the underworld in the black, so called black world but only four days or three days in one year they are heroes. But once they become heroes the process was very painful to use the fireworks to torture them. So that's why I think this ritual is very rich and very interesting for me. So that is also the reason why I choose this topic. In part of the movie there was a bit when the head of the temple actually become a counsellor later. So I find it really fascinating but somehow quite normal because maybe in rural Taiwan actually these people being perceived by voters they actually get stuck for lots of areas they find if you go through the whole diplomatic process you don't get stuck. So my question actually is how do you find because your subject sometimes is about localization do you find that like sort of old world I don't think that's not old because it's still quite real it's still happening in lots of places in Taiwan Do you find that conflicting with the idea of democracy or non-political is the temple equal even against the bastard votes because they're being seen? Do you find how do you see this sort of gangster politics merge together system in current Taiwan? Do you find it's an old fashion way or like a non-democratic policy? I'm not curious about that Okay, and we got another question I suspect connect to that one I think so It's a culturally very innovated film but that's the Honda Festival still on today because from civilisation point of view this could not be accepted to the frozen power of the people it would be banned in civilised countries or cities, you don't have this in Hong Kong you don't have this in Beijing so in Taiwan as you mentioned this kind of purified the spirit kind of resistance to their life that they can struggle so that they are real living people so I mean the good thing is you take into the particular of the Taiwan people and show the vast difference in people living in the present Taiwan and it must have been nine years ago I don't know whether the Honda Festival is still on and like this people throw in private sector on you, on me generally I won't be that So what's the question? It's just happening Oh, sorry Yes Is this still going on? Is it still going on? Yes This Rachel This is the first one Sorry Black and white thing It's very complicated for me For now I don't have any answer I think it's it's because I'm so close to Taiwan and something related to we are very new country to have democracy so-called democracy system so-called democracy system like a it's like a fast food for our society and but since the last year something happened very interesting, maybe I cannot answer your question directly maybe some of you have seen a film called Sunflower Occupation Pei Yang Yu Yuan I was the producer for that film and what I noticed was the younger generation in Taiwan they tried to change something some political problems in Taiwan so for me of course the Hei Dao Piao Bai it is not very it's not good at all because people cannot get equal opportunities in that process since last year something changed have changed gradually little by little sorry I cannot answer your question is there still not a lot yet what is the ritual now oh the ritual changed a lot because this ritual become like for tourists more year by year well because the director he became politician you mean the Li Jian Zhi of the director of the temple so when I came back to visit him he was not happy because at the time he was politician already he changed a lot really it was so interesting he was a little upset on me because he said the mayor asked him that how could you allow this female film director to show so many things about the guests because people in Taiwan would be afraid of to visit Taidong as a tourist because this ritual they would be afraid of you brothers so don't do that again the director was not happy about that I saw two hands first I'm sorry you two are the next law Michael and David raised hands first Michael, yes please sorry about that these guys had all been in jail at various times which guy which guy I mean the director seemed to have spent time in jail which suggests there are some forces of law and order operating to more extent dare I ask are the police infiltrator are the judges infiltration but nevertheless there seem to be some please and straight judges is that reasonable he said since these guys have been in jail are the four of them still in jail or are the police and the law enforcement are still normal what do you think this is a group you know because you have been in jail several times so they called jail the university they called the university so that's another way of education yes so sorry I'm so sorry I forgot to ask the second part I'm sorry I have a question about the impact of this documentary I've probably got it too one of them was had the reaction when they first saw the film and another thing that caught my mind was when we looked at one of the really interesting things was the way that it made the town a tourist centre so to what extent did your film actually make this kind of festival even more popular as a tourist attraction the first is the first film the second is just like Wu Mi Le because after the film it became very popular because your film didn't make in Taidong it became more popular or less well I've already told you the director's reaction when he saw my film about that he was very happy and he asked me to stay there to watch that again with him actually I found him at the day because this film was screened in public TV station in Taiwan so at the screening the premier screening night I got the phone call from him because in the very last days of editing until then I couldn't find Little E so when I got his phone call I was very happy I said where were you I couldn't find you and he said because he was he had something serious with he would be put in jail if he he was caught by the police so he ran away to north of Taiwan so then I visited him in Taidong I went back to find them and gave him a DVD to him so he asked me to stay there and watch DVD with him together he was very happy and he said oh I was very handsome thank you he said he wrote a letter to me only three three lines very warm and very very sweet he said in his letter he was very happy to see himself in this documentary and he would keep the DVD to be very good kept the memory of his younger things how about Achen Achen he also ran away he ran away from Taidong because the mayor the mayor said the mayor had some negotiation with the she was a cement cement factory but the cement factory didn't give the mayor the money they negotiated not enough money so the mayor told Achen that you get out of my city if you come back I will put you in the jail so he ran out of Taidong how about this family sorry because you actually put most your emphasis on Achen and their relationship so what happened to the family the family is still there sorry to barge in so I recognize they're not really gangsters they're more low level criminals compared to the rest maybe that's why they accepted the attention to have the documentary but they do make a significant contribution to the Lantern Festival on the other hand it feeds their own needs because it's kind of an initiation into the gangster life I want to ask what was the most precious part of making the documentary and what was the most worrying part well I feel may say that the film reflects negatively on Taiwanese society and Taiwanese politics especially so my question is why is the Ministry of Culture promoting the film okay okay yes sorry did you say Ministry of Culture sorry you should ask Ministry of Culture why is it a very full cultural side of it because we do have 30 something Taiwanese film being selected promoted abroad we don't only select things positive that's actually a good way to face up to the world saying we do have problems different things okay yes it's not a consideration of other things I've heard about Taiwanese military politics which they think they wouldn't want to promote so they're wisely they do sorry my answer was it's different now but before it was this film was finished 80 years ago at that time I was very happy about oh I made a film about dancers about those brothers it was very difficult but I made it but now when I look back of that those days I thought I think life is very complicated in the people we want if we want to survive in the world it's not easy so we need very different kinds of professionals to survive in our in our different societies so for those brothers that's their professionals that they had to they had to negotiate to different people and they live in the border line of legal the illegal that's the very interesting experience of since made me happy yes and no very complicated feeling the most difficult part and most special difficult difficult part is well I always have some very sensitive awareness about generation and an Osayama woman it's really difficult to work in this field to film me it's not very happy for me to shooting a film, shooting a story which is very shamanist and actually I really want to produce a story about their their wives or their daughters maybe it's the next film I don't know I don't know you want to film the wives and daughters that Jun film about their barriers and constraints during the filming yeah but every time when the camera and me getting close to those women they were very shy trying to avoid us yeah so it was not very very difficult to film them so that's very difficult for me and made me feel there must be something wrong inside but I cannot put too much emphasis in that phenomenon because there is something ethnic issue inside of this yeah because my protagonist are those brothers so somehow for me I couldn't film a documentary like that yeah to to say something like that that they are it's not very good relationship it's not a good gender relationship in this film I cannot do that so it made me a little bit upset about that can I also question I was gagging to ask sorry because it's really interesting film because it's a kind of very masculine film there's a male name but you use a woman's narrator and use a very black trying to be very neutral using a very very feminine very rational narrator why it's quite interesting for me seemingly a very deliberate decision well you can watch the my fancy high heels isn't the same or totally opposite some of my close friends they said my film style are very kind of cold or calm part of my personality I guess yeah part and well I have many many different part of personality and that is reflected in your words of course to exactly you talk about the music I like the music thank you what an expert she loves the music and she said she's the expert to appreciate that I use traditional elements and electronic elements so when I talk to the composer I told him that we have four main characters the temple director and E and Achen and little E so for the relationship to this ritual and the religion we have different percentage of those part so the as the traditional music element the percentage is this part is the most so I use traditional instrument to represent the temple director but for little E ask the composer to to use the traditional element like the sound of drum but do the music into the electronic style so for the four characters I use different percentage of the traditional music did you notice that I was like this any more questions more the questions again the answers in your film all look very happy were they pretty much happy all the time would you say they're happier than all of us they're just like me and you life is up and down I have to say that when they are upset I couldn't really film film that part maybe because they are they're men maybe because they didn't want to tell me that part but Achen I think he told me the most of his real life so I appreciate that and I thank him very much two more there thank you the film felt it's about a ritual but it felt like just an observation when there's a ritual you have a fast forward then you go into their story then you hit another ritual and you fast forward it is it like a but you kind of use there as well it's all like they they've seen in the end is it like your structure for this film it's not like a lot of emphasis on this ritual but a lot more emphasis on each of these four characters story and how they do you consider use this as if they within themselves make that sacrifice that the ritualistic standing is that somehow the undertone of your film but not a lot from the ritual itself is that when you try to aim to catch so it did not become like an individual but more of these people going through life that like sacrifice moments become a legend somehow I have a question about the the backlash maybe that these guys suffered why they had to go in hiding Ah Chung in particular he was a little forthright with his comments about you know collecting Daenerys organs delivering them to the people director you know these sorts of things did that play any part in why they had to go into hiding or you know and would that have anything to do with any legal consequences because they were so forthright and also I wanted to know about the additional footage that you filmed that wasn't in the documentary that could possibly be used in legal proceedings in Taiwan not understanding not understanding how you know legal system works though if they could require you to turn over that information so what you are talking about is a ritual what you are talking about is actually there is a kind of self-sacrifice through that ritual so the point is there is a kind of self-cleaning self-reflection so he can understand why the point is we can't say that it's intentional there is a purpose the second question is more tricky the second question is for example A-Chen is the most honest most willing to share with you how he would kill people or how he would collect debts so after that he fled to the north because your liar has committed a crime or you have some unnecessary lies in the law in Taiwan will it be used to sue? I am scared sorry