 Good afternoon everyone and welcome this is Melissa with the stockswush.com and I'm here this evening with Trader Jen. Welcome Jen how are you? Great how are you this evening? I'm wonderful you know Jen I gotta tell you you have the funniest funniest name in the room do you want to tell everyone what your name is in the room? Zinn. Now where did you come up with that name? I don't know just came to me. That's right it's true. Yeah yeah it's part of that just I'm kind of mellow. Well the interesting thing is so everyone knows Jen used to work at the Chicago exchange is that correct? At the Merck yes and then I worked at Smith Barney. Wow interesting and I forget how many years now have we known each other? Three. You found me at the beginning of the time when I started teaching. Correct I was I don't know exactly I didn't remember what I was looking for I was just looking for classes I was looking for something that would have someone else other than myself that I could feel like I bounced off of energy or ideas we met. And the basic gist of it was that you right now currently I mean you have people you know your big time I mean you have people that manage your money but you said yourself like I got to get into managing this myself a little bit or tell me how that transition really happened for you. I just feel like really unless there's an extreme problem all of us are capable of doing what money managers do. They don't always do that much and it's expensive I really I had money managers on my family's accounts because I'm honestly just worried if something ever happened to me you know who would they turn to for any advice and that's how that happened but I'm moving past that and so that's I mean you have a lot of conviction in your own abilities and that's the thing that I think would really assist you and be able to you know trade basically we've talked about this before I mean I think you have a lot of self-confidence and your businesses and your dealings and the things that you do. The one thing that I want to talk to Jen about and the reason I wanted to talk tonight was number one to talk about Lulu but Lulu I'm going to talk about as an example Jen has taken my bearish cat class but the thing is that Jen really really loves longs and when we were talking I'm trying to work through everything with this with Jen. Jen admitted to me only a few weeks ago that she actually prefers to go long than short so tell me a little bit about that Jen. I have no good reason I've always been a more bullish person and I've always I've just always been a buyer more than a shorting I've shorted before I mean of course but it's just for some reason strangely it's not a comfort zone to me I can't really explain it to anyone maybe there's something about it that feels a little bit backward to me or I think that's it really I just think it's almost like a right-left thing so wait a minute since like the beginning of time do you think it's that you've made all your money going long do you think maybe that's what it is really well sure that's my oh my god what happened what happened okay we're back I'm back okay can you hear me I have made I've always made the most of my money going long even when I was a stock broker just this to my style I guess I think we all have a natural style okay I think shorting is more natural for you maybe yeah it's definitely definitely natural for me but the obviously is something that you're capable of doing you saw the Lulu today we talked about the Lulu last night the interesting thing about Lulu is when I woke up in the morning I saw Lulu was barely gapping up it was like a smidgen and I said you know what I'm not gonna bother with this thing it was around 6250 or something like that right before the open it actually had a huge massive push out of approximately 915 and then ended up gapping up and really opening at a very very different price than it was in the morning and I never went back and looked at it I mean what time did you actually look at this I know you ended up texting me what time did you go back and look at the Lulu because you said to me oh my lanta this this ran like umpteen points well really let me think a minute I think I got up at 5 a.m. and I was just I would just turn on CNBC with no volume I was just watching the ticker and I want to say it was down at five and then I think I looked at it around 130 you know I don't know I have to look and see when I see you that text but it was up five over five dollars yeah here it was here's about six o'clock in the morning so here was around when you got up and this is where I looked at it to you know I get up early as well and then I said oh this is a piece of crap I'm not going to do anything with this today it's not going to go anywhere but I should have went back to it because look at where it went from 62 all the way up to 66 it actually in 15 minutes and 20 minutes it rallied up four dollars I could have actually gone long this today and as you know I don't like to go long but I will tell you that Lulu was a good bullish gap today and was a good long now let me ask you this did you go long Lulu today in your account no I didn't because it did not seem like it was going to go long at all it was going to be a long train I really didn't know which way it was going to end up going and I went to my office I got sidetracked with a client and when I looked at my my ticker I was like oh I missed it yeah one major major major thing you learn in reference to from my class about gaps if you could pick one thing I know you've done the class a couple of times what's the one thing that you think has really helped you well I think for me I I'm very systematic and you have a system and it's a it's a discipline and I think it just reinforces habits I've already had but you go and in much you're actually you grow in much greater detail when you explore a stock then I really ever did I'll be I mean you mean even back in the day when you used to like manage people's money and you never ever went into that kind of detail like back in them you know back in the day you didn't when you were you know managing people's money you did it well you you know you have to think when you manage big big amounts of money what are you talking about that big amounts of money like give me an example because I honestly I never was a stockbroker I never did what you did I never worked on the floor I never did anything you did so tell me like give me an example typically when you deal with millions of dollars and you know you have to think I might be your portfolio your I might be your manager your your broker whatever you wanted to call me right but it's impossible the way the market moves really to be able to have as many clients as I had to be able to go in all day long and trade it's just it's not possible to have you mean because you had so many clients is that what you're saying right so you know often what you do is you then end up working with you actually do work with money managers right and they're set up let's let's say you bring me a million dollars right and then we you know pretty much just determine your risk tolerance and then I'm not a huge fan of mutual funds but what I did was I would work with managers that did actual stock positions okay and and there may be shorts in the account there were obviously more long positions than short right there was hedging there was you know depending on how which manager I worked with you can combine different styles you know I might have had 250,000 in a large area of growth or whatever and then I might have had small cap stocks doing something else or I mean obviously the way that a portfolio is constructed it's not like it's just you know in four equal pieces so you're saying when you were hedging so you were doing like options against like some of the equity positions is that what you're talking about yeah they would you know they would do protective you know positions right depending on what the market's doing if it was if they felt like it was necessary okay so you got out of that like it was a crazy crazy time I know when you were you were involved in that business and you would give and tell me some stories about that like what ended up making you get out of it like you obviously never lost conviction in the market how did you get to back to the place where you got out of that being a stock broker and then you came back and decided you wanted to get back into the market like what was the transition in your life from there to there that you I mean you never lost really conviction in the market did you or you just were tired of being a stock broker what happened I it was a it was a lot of things my my dad wasn't very well his health was declining and I had to basically go back and start taking care of my family's business okay so I decided to you know I just I watched we hired an outside broker because I didn't have access to the resources I had when I was at Smith Barney and my dad did fairly well in life with money okay and we needed I wanted more access and I I had a lot going on with our business in general not it was more than just his assets so we had another guy that I I basically monitored work with talk to asked him you know things that tried to put him on the spot sometimes really and you know I did that until my dad died and then I took everything back over and put it with a friend of mine for a while at Smith Barney and then I decided I didn't like Smith Barney's fees for for what went on really and I watched things for like efficiency and taxes right you know did they clean up at the end of the year where they had gains and losses the right way things like that and I ended up going to Schwab okay and that's how that's where I am now so so I mean as far as your personal trading though like do you feel that with what you learned about gaps that you could take this and run with it or something holding you back is it is it holding your back because I focus so much on the shorts that you're that you're afraid to short are you thinking that you really need to be focusing more in the longs or what is where what is what is missing with the piece for you to just go at this because I know the of the discipline of all the people that I've met I know that you wouldn't be careless with your money because you're so careful with everything you're so conservative compared to most people that I have met even though you have a very vivacious personality which is an interesting combination so what do you think it is I mean when you said this a couple weeks ago I said you know what what is it that is making you think you really are holding yourself back from doing this thing like full on I I don't really have a good excuse I I do think that the shorting does distract me I'm also distracting with my real estate business okay but more more I think it is me just if I would commit to this for one month right and be in the room at least four days out of the week I believe I could get my mindset in line with the shorting to be as comfortable with that as I am with going along I think it's just a it's just a me thing with money it's just a back it seems backward to me so when you were doing the money managing when you were stockbroker you're saying you really were not doing that many shorts is that what you're talking about no no it was mostly long positions always I mean if there was any shorting it was in a portfolio that a money manager was doing stocks were like bursting like crazy and everything was along is that why do you think I was a broker when the nasdaq finally hit 5 000 in march of was it 99 and then watch that goes tumbling down I was still a broker 9 11 watch the rally off of that and then watch the market plummet in july of the following year july of 12 okay watch the market really pretty much bottom out now back again that makes sense bottom out again in 2000 um what started in 2007 acted crazy through eight and right then in nine started to climb back again here we are you know we're coming we're in another cycle so now let me ask you this like Michael Kors were you in the room the day that Michael Kors got down were you yes I was okay would you have shorted Michael Kors I mean can you see this with everything that I taught you like this stock literally fell off the planet the high of the day was 50 50 and the low of the day is 45 88 I mean this stock ran down on the five dollars on the day and if you had if you had bought this you would have lost if you had shorted this would have made money do you see in that the panic the kind of panic activity where there's money to be made and again this isn't holding it overnight this is just doing the day trade I'm thinking to myself as I'm trying to help you that with your with your background you're used to taking something to buying it it's a buy and hold mentality that you've been doing the shorts you could use to day trade and the longs you could take with the market with the market rally with a bullish market and hold the stocks that are strong and short for the day trades if you want to or go long like Lulu if you wanted to do today but I'm saying to help you maybe like something like this like you do the course you do the course for the short on the day you make money on the day you get out you're flat by four o'clock you're not used to doing that it's a stock broker but now you're in a different position in life you're like a day trader you could do it oh I could totally do this I mean it's just a matter of here I am it's funny you mentioned Michael Kors I was in my office and I looked I was talking to this woman and she had a Michael Kors bag hanging on her shoulder and I was like oh I still can't believe I didn't take that trade are you serious you really regret it serious oh yes I did so what do you think in your mind going back it was only like two weeks ago like what were you thinking you were thinking did you not have conviction it was a short are you just have the concept of shorting that is like in your mind you're like shorting I can't make money or what do you mean I was actually emailing with my attorney that morning and and I was at my desk and I was emailing because I did not want him to call and charge me for leaving me a message and I missed and I missed the trade I was like I should have taken that hundred fifty two hundred dollar phone message and made the trade I would have made a lot more money it was my fault that's the honest truth that's hilarious it is it's like everyone knows I'm up really early so a lot of people start you know getting a hold of me at like five or six in the morning when I work out or whatever so it's great honey now let's as you know I've been talking talking talking about the fact that I have a hundred percent conviction the market's higher I'll make a new high this year I just kind of want to get your take on this based on what I've taught you about gaps and I know you haven't taken the bullish gap class yet but you have taken the bearish gap class and the market did gap down today but as you see it rallied and bounced into the close do you feel that the market's higher what is your take on this from your experience from we need charts um in a cute spot could you repeat that please I was saying there or not do you agree with me the market's higher or do you think the market's lower no I think the market's higher I mean you're in core core core long positions are you concerned about those long positions no because of the positions or because you think the market's higher I just think we're still running I mean let's wait for what happens with interest rates I think what we're doing right now is pricing a lot of things in that might really rock the market they talk about it so much when it finally happens if they rate if they hike rates whatever it won't be that big of a big of a deal to the market by the time they do it that's usually what the way they do it you know so when are you focused more on technical analysis like what do you focus more on with your background with my background I've always had a technical you know more of a technical mind but in when I was involved in the market I was more involved with watching the numbers and and even that was the way it all started when I was on the trading floor and I was a clerk in the end the numbers when I say watch the numbers it's like what financial numbers come out as a housing is it right cvp whatever that was a big momentum maker you know it always has been probably always will be farm payrolls non-farm payrolls I mean you know people I think people get emotional and I'm not sure they completely know what's going on but you gotta love them let me tell you stories just tell everybody here like back in the day when you were doing this stuff like I remember you telling these stories like weren't you on the floor and like people were crazy like I watch that movie gosh I I mean I'm so naive to this stuff because obviously I've only ever electronically traded I've never been a stockbroker I've never been on the floor of the exchange even though I live in Manhattan and you were on the floor of the exchange at one point and I had watched that movie Wolf of Wall Street and I called you I remember after the movie and I said this seems completely unrealistic and you were like no no no Melissa you know this is 100 realistic I mean when you look back at the things that you used to be involved with and then you think of yourself today like what's the what have you learned from that experience like tell somebody one of the crazy stories of the craziest stories that have ever happened to you or things that you've seen that people have done like that make you really just say oh my gosh I don't even know why I'm involved with this thing except for the fact that the money is so powerful um I was a clerk in the Yen and I did not trade my own account I was young and I um I was on the trading floor when traders didn't use I believe it's called glowbacks that they use now on the on the floors it's a little handheld computer and they did my day on the floor would they use trading cards that you would write your long you know you would write on the front or back of the card that would mean you were either long or short a position that's a larry is compared to with the way thing that I do now today I mean I literally press a button and I'm in I mean that's a larry is to me oh no and it was like the clerk was the person that kept the count for the trader so I would have to make sure the back and the front of the card basically matched if you will what if they screwed you open position what if they screwed you though they did that's what I'm talking about when the FBI came on the trading floor why why did they come on the trading floor I'm lost because traders in I can't mention names I can still see some of those guys on tv in Chicago um in the pits or I have in the past I haven't watched for a while but um s and p swiss frank japanese yen about four or five of the guys that stood around me that were actually traders not clerks ended up being convicted of stealing they could steal it was easy there was no way to monitor what really happened yeah before or after they manipulated the market because there was no way to track it who means to that I mean obviously now you trade your own thing I mean those rules are resilient regulations I mean don't you think right now is like a great time I mean you can do your own thing now and you're protected don't you think yes but back then you can make a lot of money on the side apparently you know it worked for a while for some of those guys it was interesting it was it was a fun time I probably would never say I wanted to go back and do it again but it was a great experience didn't you say I think you were telling me you worked for your boss and your boss would leave like Thursday or Friday or whatever to go golfing or whatever he would do and he would be like hi is the kayak on coke something and you would have to like take his trades or manage his accounts like didn't you tell me that at one point I would just no I would just hang out in his office and try to figure out if he left any loose ends and then try to find him on a golf course on the cell phone crazy the big cell phone that was the day of the big Motorola wow like in wall street yeah yeah I'm making fun of that phone but so yes it was interesting where are you from the time that you started out with all this experience to get to the point to meet me now like where do you where do you see yourself a year from now like a year from now would you think you would actually shore Michael Kors do you think you're going to actually start to get the conviction to do this like any year from now 2016 June 2016 where do you see yourself with your trading oh I'll be I'll be trading three to four days a week next year okay I will and I'll be shorting I there's actually no reason that I can't short it's just I know how to do it it's not hard it's it's really just like well being long it's the exact same thing except for you just so there's no excuse it's just my mindset I've always been a buy-and-hold long person that's just me but the one thing good at doing one directional bias which you're good at seeing things to the upside all you have to do that is be good at seeing things to the downside like I always tell people get good at one thing if you can get good at going long then you get good at going short first get good at one thing you're good at going long now you can get good going short it's the same thing with me like I first got good at going short and then I was able to get good at going long and that's the way to see the market is higher but I think it just is about becoming really really good at one thing but you've done that, it's just that you haven't taken the leap into the next area, which is getting good at going short. You know, when you're shorting the stock, even if it's temporary in the day, it doesn't mean that you're giving up on the company or something like that. I know you watch all these television programs, and I know you like to read some of the things about the earnings reports. Just because you short something on the day doesn't mean you're giving up on the company or the retailer or anything. It just means that for that temporary period, you're making money on the day. I really have nothing against making money whichever direction I have to do it. You've just changed my mind completely. I can't be in the room tomorrow for doing a lot of much time because I have a meeting at 10, but I have a meeting on Thursday at 10, but on Friday I can be in the room. Wonderful conversation. I'm going to do everything possible to try to help turn you around from going long to short and realizing that you can do both. I know that you understand everything that I taught you because I know that you're very intelligent and I know that you have more experience than I do with the stock market, which is why it's so interesting that you have this thing in your mind about going long, but I congratulate you for recognizing that it has been a hindrance for you and that fact that you're able to be in touch with yourself to actually know it is going to help you move forward. I think that's the biggest thing at making money. If everyone can just not act like they know things or they feel good about everything, you'll make a lot more money if you're just real. That's the way I look at it. I don't care to say, wow, I just don't feel good about this. And that's a conviction, but that's the conviction, you understand? Yes. That's one thing you're really, really good at. Like you had 100% conviction in Apple. Let me just look at this. And I said to myself, this is going to fall off the planet. Now they did do the stock split and I think that changed the stock price and dramatically, but I mean, when you hold the conviction, it helps you take risk or stay with the trade to a dream target or get out of it. Now just quickly, one last thing here, let's look at Apple. In an ideal world, where would you like to see Apple go before the end of 2015? I feel like Apple will probably hit somewhere between, and I know this is a little bit of a wide range, but it is Apple and we know Apple does do wider swings. I would say we're going to hit 150 to 175. I think I will love Carl Icon if he's right. And Apple hits 240, but I don't see it. Right now it's June. I think 150 is a realistic target. My mind, I was thinking 160, 165 for the dream target for Apple for the end of 2015. So it's kind of right at basically about what I taught you with the targets. Right. That's about, I think that's the correct range. I'm not sure what Carl Icon's 240 prices, unless he's lowered it. And I missed that recently, but I think that's a little high. Now how much weight do you, how much what? How much weight do you give those things when you hear them? I just go, that's right. Oh, that's wrong. I just, I can tell a bluff when I hear, you know, see someone bluffing. Are you serious? If I see the face with it, I'll go, that's not right. Or I just know the stock. I just know my stocks, you know. Right. And that has a lot to do with it. How many years you've been in Apple now? I forgot. Oh, seven. 2007. I bought an iPhone and bought a bunch of Apple stock. So long time. Well, the dream target obviously is 200. I don't think that hits by 2015, but obviously if you don't need to take the profit on this, which you don't, then you just keep holding it. That's what, I mean, I will, I mean, occasionally I might, I mean, if I feel like it's going to pull back, sometimes I have, I've taken some profit and gone back in when it dropped just for fun, you know, because, you know. Well, that's good. That's think you want to tell any traders out there or anybody that's interested in the market or gaps or any kind of advice you can give because you're so experienced in the market. It really is all about discipline. You have to, when you do this, the reason I miss trades in the room with you is usually because I'm dealing with something at work with my, with my real job during the day. My goal is to make this my real profession and put my real estate on the side, but I haven't flipped it yet. So focus, focus and learn. You have to study. This is, this is not, this is not something that happens by accident. Okay. What you've done, what you've created is something that took more discipline than most people have ever for anything. I mean, the financial sacrifice, the time sacrifice that you've put out to do it, to know in the end it was going to win. Not many people have that in them. They really don't. I appreciate, you know, she's sharing your knowledge with all of us too. Oh, that's so sweet. Now, do you think there's any advantage? I'm going to say this to you being a woman as a trader. I think, I think I've, it's a little bit funny in the trading room because you never know who's what with the names. So I have to say no. That's my answer. I don't believe there's an advantage. I believe your advantage in life is just how you handle yourself. Wow. Oh my God. This is like Play-Doh or something. I have to like write this down. This is so profound. Well, I mean, I don't believe our sex determines our success or failure in life. That's terrific. Obviously, I mean, you probably noticed was like when you were back on the exchange, there's so few women that trade the market and I have no idea why. I have absolutely no idea why. I mean, why? Why don't women want to do it? Well, because it was old boy school forever. It's coming around, but I know a lot of successful women from the day in the stock market. They just, there were few and far between, but the ones that were there made money. You know, back in the 80s, no, you didn't see a lot of women, but the ones that were there were successful because if they weren't, they wouldn't have been able to stay there. It was too expensive to be there. Oh my God. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Some it can achieve as much as men, if not more. And I think that, you know, men can women, women can do it. Women can do it just like you pointed out, but I encourage women to be successful because the beautiful thing about trading gaps, which as you know, is the only strategy that I trade is that you can trade in the morning and be done so quick. I mean, you could do your real estate job later in the day after you trade. The only problem is that you have not set that time for yourself and been so strategic about your timing. If you said to yourself, I'm going to get up in the morning and I'm going to get on the treadmill and then I'm going to take the dogs out and then I'm going to trade with Melissa till 10, 10, 15, 10, 30. And then I'm going to do the real estate stuff starting 11. You'd be on a schedule. It's just about making that schedule for yourself. Right. I just, I have too many people coming at me and I haven't really made that boundary, which I'm going to make it starting the end of this month. So I mean, it's difficult to make boundaries with people when you've been involved with them for a long time. And as you know, if you've emotional relationships or attachments to people, it's difficult to make the boundaries. But when you are able to do that, you become more centered with yourself and all the stuff you do, the yoga, the meditation, you know how to do that. Oh, I totally know. Yeah. Well, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for coming tonight, John, and sharing everything with me. I appreciate it. Thank you, Melissa, for inviting me. This is Melissa with the stockswish.com. This is Jen, Trader Jen, former stockbroker and now professional day trader. So thanks so much for coming tonight and I'll see you tomorrow. Thank you. Bye-bye. Have a good night. You too.