 Welcome folks. This is the meeting of the House Corrections and Institutions Committee. We are shifting gears this morning away from corrections budgets and Corona Relief Virus, the fund and that appropriation. We've completed our work there and have submitted our recommendations to House Appropriations Committee. We're now shifting gears to look at racial equity within the Department of Corrections. As we move forward on the House side with two Senate bills that deal with law enforcement, the criminal justice system in terms of racial equity and also training with law enforcement. So we feel that corrections is part of the justice system and we are trying to work up some language on how we can proceed here within the corrections world. We have today and tomorrow morning at 8.30 to work on listening to testimony from folks and particularly from the advocate community and we're having trouble getting folks in to testify. I just want to emphasize we are not during our normal legislative session where we have a lot of time to work on issues. This is a real shortened time frame and our committee is only due to meet today until 10 o'clock and tomorrow morning from 8.30 to 10 and then we're back here next Tuesday and next Thursday and Friday. The issue is we need to get language to the respective committees be it House Judiciary or House Government Operations Committee to attach that language to the bills that they're working on. The goal is to have the language done by next week Thursday or Friday which means we need people to come in and testify. If we don't have people available to come in and testify we will just do a shot in the dark in terms of language and hope it's okay and I really don't want to do that but we need to move this conversation along so I hope that we can get folks in tomorrow morning at 8.30 to testify so that we're ready to go with some language next Tuesday. That's my goal so we can get the ball rolling. Thoughts from members of the committee? Before we start taking some testimony, anyone have any thoughts? Kurt? Is there any way we could do what we could sit in on the Judiciary Committee ones? Are they taking testimony that we would be so that we don't have to have the same person come in twice? We could. The issue is they're not going to be focusing in on corrections. We could but they're going to be focusing in on police force and law enforcement. They're not going to be focusing in on our world of corrections. We could but I, you know, have the thoughts? Which? Alice, I know Kurt's got a great idea there but in this case we I think there's a silo that we need to work in and I agree with you unfortunately because of events that have happened recently in corrections that we want to get to the bottom of the why and it's beyond racial disparity. It's all kinds of different disparities and equity within the DOC entirely and DOC not just in our incarcerated population but in our supervised population that's on the street. I'm nobody will come in. I suppose we'll just have to do some sort of enabling language to get the HCI Committee in January to move forward with it. I don't want to take a stab in the dark and hit the wrong target. That's all. I just think it's a missed opportunity if folks don't come before our committee. Absolutely. This is extraordinary times and to figure this out or at least could start down the road of figuring it out. And I think it's a world that we as a committee live in that whenever people are thinking of the criminal justice system it's always the front end at your law enforcement and at your courts and it's DOC that handles those decisions that are made in those two areas and everyone forgets that DOC is part of the criminal justice system but also DOC and this is no slam to DOC at all but when someone's incarcerated they're in a secure facility and they are not out in the public view so it's even more important to have some thinking and thoughts in terms of how we approach this. It's not like they're out there when they're supervising folks within a correctional facility it's not the same as seeing law enforcement out on patrolling your streets. Or your neighborhood. It's a very different view and that's not to slam DOC it's not to slam anyone it's just the nature of the situation. So I've also had conversations with Bryn here about how best to approach this with our drafts folks our legislative council because Bryn is working with House Judiciary on the use of force legislation and Betsy and Rass is working with House GovOps on the criminal justice training council. So we've got two different legislative council staff and in the conversation with Bryn yesterday she suggested also reaching out to Becky where Becky Wasserman might be able to help us at the beginning to sort of frame our thoughts help us frame our thoughts and also start some language discussions and I am going to proceed with having language we're going to work on language Tuesday morning. That's going to be our schedule because we've got to get this out to the other committees by the Thursday or Friday of next week and we only have Tuesday, Thursday and Friday mornings to meet. Madam Chair I'll be available I had something else scheduled this morning because I was told about this little last minute but I'll be available tomorrow and Tuesday morning to help. Okay that'd be great and we may just have to put words down and then figure out how we go forward. Well we're sort of thinking about Becky is just having some kind of a report back. I know that Commissioner Baker when he spoke to us on Tuesday was really looking for a larger package in terms of addressing culture change within corrections and that's more of a conversation when we get back into our new session in January but this could lay sort of the groundwork for that maybe a little bit of the parameters or just start touching the surface of what information would be needed to further putting in place the draft for that particular legislation in January that's sort of the thinking at this point okay anything else and then we'll move on to Heather here okay Heather welcome we haven't seen you we haven't seen you since when in January it's been a bit I've missed you yes and and now you have a brand new position yes I do so welcome thank you very much good morning everyone morning um I I hope you've sort of come into tune with a little bit of what we're talking about and what we're looking at and we've we worked this yesterday a little bit on Tuesday to try to get some more folks to testify from the advocate community as well as DOC and you're the spokesperson for DOC at this point so um we're just really reaching out to folks to give us some thoughts on what's the best way to approach addressing the issue of racial equity within the culture of corrections and it would be within the facilities as well as within the field offices so I'm going to turn that over for you just so we can start brainstorming just jump in okay for the record my name is Heather Simons I'm the Director of Office of Professional Standards for the Department of Corrections and Madam Chair thank you very much for the invitation um that's a very big question and um I to your earlier point around me being filled in on some of the discussions I obviously I have been I've listened to some of the testimony from our from Commissioner Baker which is not unlike them it's the same message that he's giving our department in terms of the overall plan to address culture can't be one area at a time and race race equity and inclusion in the Department of Corrections needs to be not just within the facilities not just the field sites but also how we do business so that includes the workforce and the efforts that we that we're making there from just from um your basic business plan it wouldn't look unlike um police modernization because those those those 10 steps really represent the areas of corrections that we want to address and know that we need to and that includes appropriate needs assessment at the right pace which I think we we've all heard that our community members um and advocates are advising us that we need to go in a pace at a pace that makes sense that works um and that doesn't cause further chaos and I think that that you know that's certainly one of the challenges for all of us because there's this we've got a need to fix and that doesn't that urgency doesn't necessarily apply when we have to go at the pace of the people who are harmed and the race equity work for us would include our practices with regards to hiring that includes interviewing that includes recruitment we're understanding that retention is a much bigger discussion uh it's really big it's more than just retaining somebody but what how are we welcoming people into our department how are they feeling when they get here if they're staying why are they staying but also there's our workforce experience is critical uh to the message that they're in turn sending our offender population whether they're incarcerated or not we've got a set of tone if we really are a community that our probation work and facilities are an extension of the community we haven't traditionally done this in the past we do understand that um it's additionally critical that we get all of that community feedback and there are some opportunities for us that I think are distinctly different than other areas for example um families of the incarcerated they have a voice we have a constituency management office now that is open and taking calls and emails and responding which has been one of the most effective ways for us to get a sense of what's the overall sentiment what are the critical needs and where are those concerns coming from representative shah you referred earlier too you know it's not it's not just the equity work we really can't do culture work if we don't look at equity across the board abuse of power or the misuse of power certainly the sexualized work environment which you've heard plenty from me this winter on and I think a little bit more from commissioner baker but those are all symptoms and indicators of wellness and we cannot move um and create we can't move a culture or create a safer facility if we don't tackle it all and and the all part isn't just the recruitment and inclusion but we have um uh set up um I'm pausing because again it we have to go at the pace at which we're at but um our black and brown employees need some affinities you know paid space to be able to discuss their experience in the workplace their experience in their community I think that um what we've done I certainly since throughout my career is that we put training on everything and that's not always the solution that training is very useful if we want to make sure that content is delivered training's really useful if we have to have to test for a skill training isn't always the best answer when it comes to accountability and messaging from the top um uh leadership practices um how we include people how we welcome people and how we ask for feedback and I think that that's where the majority of our work is going to be the other things are measurable we can rewrite policies and certainly we're going to have some policies to write but the most important thing is that we are doing a prep we're doing the proper assessment which has a lot to do with listening the office of professional standards pretty much has um you know it has our metaphorical hands and everything at this point that connects to that the oversight of the DOC peer support team which is the special team set up to support um employees particularly around resilience and trauma um COVID hasn't helped with that situation and so that's an intensely focused team um we all know if we are going to be trauma informed that we can't we can't do new work until we manage the pain that the current work has caused our constituency services office is focused on making sure that we hear from family members and and any community members and it's not just um message received but there needs to be a loop back in communication and that's going to be really important in terms of equity work we've been working with Tabitha more for a few years she's been regular faculty for our leadership training and has delivered a lot of content to us with regards to the the journey of the white experience we are mostly white um we the discussions that we need to have really more are less about how we need to change our thinking but more um getting comfortable with where we're at asking questions and creating an environment where people can speak a little more freely which I think we all know is complicated with um with protocols and rules and uh social media it's a lot easier to say that we're free to speak um but the freedom to feel um the trust that we need to say what we need to learn that doesn't come as easily and that's certainly going to be and is a focus of the work that we're doing none of this happens if we don't have um a healthy protocol and process for our investigations process right so on the continuum of things that we have to pay attention to it's full realization that people are still being harmed folks need to be accountable we need to be really we need to get very comfortable with how we define misconduct and what that means and uh creating avenues where reporting is easier and at the very least understanding um what is the comfort level for not just not the workforce but also our funder population to say what they have to say additionally um language in this area becomes so important we don't always have the language to describe what's happening to us and so um it's easier to dismiss someone if they're in pain if they can't if we can't put language to what we're going through and maybe we won't say anything and I think that that that's going to be one of our biggest challenges is finding ways to create the space where anything can be shared so that we can dive into whether it's uh what the actual issue is we don't want to be a culture that creates so much fear around reporting that we're not learning if that makes sense I'm going to stop you there Heather um to me that really hits a nerve in terms of having fear around reporting I think that may really be one of the crux of the issue can you expand a little bit on what that fear might be and I think it would be different if it's reporting a situation from an an offender reporting something or a staff person reporting something I mean to me that's really hitting a core of this discussion for yeah what's entailed I mean can you give us some examples at all of some of those situations um I don't want to point fingers at anybody but I just want to get a handle on a more of that statement the fear of reporting something so I it's probably easier if I start you know if I make it clear as we move through whether I'm talking about workforce or um or the or the people that we serve but one commonality is is it's the fear of retaliation what what happens to the quality of my life if I say something and that um that experience is going to be different whether you're an employee or you're incarcerated or under supervision but ultimately the feels the fear is around someone or some people having control over my destiny because I voice something that um I don't think that that varies too much um being able to recognize uh someone else's experience when we haven't experienced it ourselves I think that's the complexity of this right so we want to make sure that when we supervise offenders that we're being fair that we're following the rules well corrections is deeply rooted in rules that um if you go we don't have to go too far back to see that those rules were inhumane and so our our duty to continue to be vigilant around is it best practice is it current and just because it's a rule doesn't mean that it makes sense that's one two is the quality of understanding what somebody is saying to us when they make a complaint because I might not have the same experience and I know we we often hear and use the term microaggressions right those are the little things that add up that um that's uh they're they're hard to um it's kind of hard to prove and sometimes it's even hard to justify internally so I think um an easy you know I think an easy one for women over years we've said we know when we're not being called on in a meeting it's not exactly you know it's not exactly a felony but we experience over time um a marginalization you can't put your finger on it you can't prove it but uh the pattern develops and um even explaining it is very difficult because the process of explaining um could possibly make me sound like I'm just not getting attention or I'm a troublemaker it's those kinds of examples that if my audience hasn't had the same experience may not understand the impact of it and uh where that becomes critical is when I live if I live my life from from my lens and someone else um has said to me that what I'm doing is making them feel bad or affecting their liberty or their safety and I can't see it it's going to be harder for them to put language to it I think that um the basic places to look in this in our in our facilities would be how do we traditionally see um grievances and sanctions how do we use them and what is the reason for that and uh data is going to be critical in terms of how we move through this process and connect those dots for the workforce we look at things like promotions that would be the easiest place to start there are a number of nuances that go along with that but I think you know the the demographics around who's in what position and what we value as skills is part of this assessment around equity and corrections is a place where we we have cultivated a certain profile which makes very practical sense if you come into corrections as an officer we'll likely be looking at you know it makes sense to go from law enforcement to corrections or military to corrections that's an area where it's where traditionally it just we have connected the dots because that's what we've always done but the mission of corrections work is different and the skills that we bring in and value might not be as relevant I'm not saying they're irrelevant but reprioritizing how we see confinement is the purpose of confinement security um is the is the competency of use of force more important than de-escalation or recognizing or being more culturally aware or culturally competent so Heather I'm gonna stop you there because we have a couple committees members that have some questions but this is I think the other piece that is really resonating with me is what is the mission of corrections and is it the same as law enforcement and the military and I think that's a piece that really we can vet a little bit where corrections by our state policy in our statutes as corrections is for rehabilitation um and law enforcement and military is for security and sometimes those two work hand in hand with rehabbing and sometimes it doesn't with rehabilitation so that's those the simple thoughts in my mind uh so we have a couple questions Sarah and then Kurt so Madam Chair I some of my questions you you've kind of stated um but but Heather it's really nice to have you here and congratulations on this is a new title or new position you have thank you our congratulations and I'm excited morning and I think where we're coming from and where we could use your guidance where um is I think these these issues are intertwined like changing the culture within corrections you know have a a a work for a improve a working environment um you know building a high quality workforce you know retaining officers and training are all are all intertwined um and I guess you know I think with this short session we're not going to be inventing what that training or what that looks like I think this this step is about how you know what what kind of resources you might as a agency need to go deeper and to come back to us with some recommendations so um you know when I heard that we were that we were thinking about doing this work I started to poke around you know on the internet and I mean there's there's been some research done um national research and um uh regional research about how to do this work so I guess my question is from your perspective as the direct the office of professional standards like within that purview what you know what are the tools that you need us that you would need to do this work to come back to us with um kind of a package or recommendation of how to how to affect it affect change like do you need to an outside entity to work with you or do you feel like you have the resources internally to to do this kind of a report sorry for the long winded question but no that's okay it's helpful thank you um you know um hard yes on all outside consult this is an area where um pretending like we we don't know what we don't know and that's sort of why we're in this boat right we um and there's plenty of research and um an enormous number of consultants um not just in Vermont but across the country in terms of how to begin this conversation and balance that with balance that with the measurables and um whether it's uh community members who will lead you know the best assessment we can have about how we're doing or the people we're affecting and I think um the community focus for us is going to be and is critical and not just in the traditional areas not just you know the call to the commissioner's office they need to be included in focus groups and facilitation around those groups um needs to be done strategically and thoughtfully with the right people and um resources with regards to how we do that it's going to be really important um the the talent and stamina to to build a learning organization around areas of the affective realm is not easy and so again I think thoughtfulness is really important understanding the amount of discretion that corrections has we know the state's attorneys have um they have the power right they have all the power in terms of um the front end of this and law enforcement has discretion corrections has the opportunity to determine the quality of somebody's sentence and um we are in a critical place with the support of this committee uh with the public sentiment and with the demand from the public and the community to make some change to really use the voices who have pushed us in this direction to assist us in getting where we need to go I don't know um you you know that you know I like to talk about training I think I'm always worried that training is going to get cut before other what are considered more essential services but this is an area where training isn't everything and we can't we can't always measure the level of trust that someone has but we can build it and we can see that we can see the product on the other end we've underestimated the power of the um of of listening and that it's that's a place where we can formalize that process whether it's the grievance process in the facilities or creating new systems where we're inclusive on our policies for example Tabitha Moore is um assisting us um in the rewrite with our use of force policy what we get bogged down in traditionally is wanting to get the job done get the product finished and we lose sight of outside vision on things we need to see there's so much that we can do up front I think you've heard commissioner Baker talk about body cameras for example um when we most folks when they think of body cameras they think about accountability and being able to see what happened um one of the terrific opportunities around body cameras is that it's also going to capture the enormous amount of terrific work that's happening it's very hard for us to measure what we've de-escalated so in terms of resources that's an area where it would be unim it's it wouldn't be something that I normally think of in the role of uh office of professional standards because that's around pushing culture and standards and not really around equipment but body cameras are a vehicle to see all the great work to see the evidence of terrific of terrific training to um understand the complexities of a really good de-escalation we don't know how many suicides we prevent because we prevented them we don't know how many people we have calmed down and redirected who have more optimism than they did the day before because they because they have done what they needed to do and there's no we only see the bad stuff right so that that is probably one um that the resources around equipment is much more um useful than we're used to thinking because we're so accountability driven I also think that could go a long way with regards to building public public trust which is really really the goal here outside of um safe facilities and supervision with dignity anything else sarah okay so we have more questions kurt butch and carl I think uh representative coffee articulated my question very well I'm I'd like to think that we and the doc are both aiming in the same direction we're wanting to do the same thing so my question is kind of the same as as sarah's what can we do to help what source of things do you need or language that you need or ability that you find you don't have that we could be able to provide through any um language of legislation and things like that that's my question and some of it you've you've kind of talked about but it would be really good if we had um some specifics as to where you see uh the kind of help that we could give in reaching the goals that we're both looking for there were doc and the legislature yeah I appreciate that and that's a great question um for instance do you do you have the the tools to measure the things that you said that we would like to measure in order to um know if we're doing a good job do you have the resources to do that uh as far as outside consultants you mentioned a lot of there that there are a lot of them is there some difficulty in getting them on board and getting their information so that you can um process what they what they have so I so it would be so easy for me to say you know money money in positions right that that is I know that's not what you're asking um I'm hesitating because uh I don't want to speak for my commissioner but the the resources again I think um for us are access to the subject matter experts so that we're not recreating the wheel um that um the uh person power to collect data and do it in a thoughtful way so that we are capturing what not just what we want to capture but making sure that um making sure that we have the time and the space um to attach the data to the to the mission is what we are is what we're collecting um going to get us where we want to go uh resources around um well first of all um this isn't lip service but the opportunity to have this discussion today is uh I mean it's incredibly supportive and putting on the record that this is valued that corrections hasn't been lost in the mix that this is um you know we are um a very critical uh part of the criminal justice system um this committee has um a deep understanding of every area that corrections goes in from um the incarcerated experience certainly now COVID mitigation for our state restorative justice practices hotel management we're we're covering it in terms of our ability to impact the community I think for for resources it would be around how we include the community and what's it gonna what's it gonna take particularly now when finding space even space to meet the experience of meeting is challenging uh COVID's not helping that and vehicles like platforms like zoom certainly assist and are bringing us together but we're talking we're talking about basic contact theory and the work we have to do face to face which we know um is at the heart of healing and change and reform so I'm not dancing around your question it's just that I haven't thought of it yet what what would we need to to fill that gap given that we don't know how long we're in this situation that's well there's nothing wrong with with saying uh money in positions those are legitimate requests if those are legitimate needs I mean if the if there's a position that you think uh the legislature should be funding that is would really help in this sort of a situation then there's nothing wrong with pointing that out to us if if you you mentioned access to um I think you mentioned access to uh consultants or outside information is there something that's keeping you from getting that or do you find that you don't have the time to to uh get that information or is there something else no we are we have uh we currently have a contract with Laurie Gurney who does clinical oversight for our peer support team we know um being able to support not just the peer support team at our command center and doing decompressions we're building a more resilient workforce but there's a lot of history and trauma there so that and that is um that's not separate and apart to race and equity work because we do race and equity work because harm has been done so that's one contract that's in place um Tabitha Moore um who you know is the director of the NAACP um has just come on with us we've been talking to the Moss group um and uh they're going to be assisting us with uh building our mission and vision oh there's an enormous amount of work additionally that I think that needs to be done if we're going to make sure that we move one of my concerns around resources is this if we just address one section of the department we're creating potentially more pain for another so for all if we are only creating space for the offender population the workforce is not is not getting the support the workforce needs if we start with one office and not another office if we begin only top down um because the of the importance of messaging then bottom up is left feeling like this is only important in one area so the bigger picture on resources is how much can we do at one time and how much is that going to be and I'm referring to things like contracts okay thank you in positions and money butch and then Carl thank you Alice uh Heather nice to see you again uh see you representative you know you've uh put a lot of snippets out this morning and we had a conversation yesterday with the commissioner yesterday I think Tuesday yeah one of those days uh that when we talked about this a little bit and and we talked about training and you brought it up again this morning and saying and I we all made a statement or read that training new new people is wazer than training existing employees because of the culture that the existing employees have been been working in and it's it's encouraging to uh hear you talk about uh race and gender equity and hiring and and recruiting uh that's good luck with that that's a difficult piece but I hear a couple of things a lot from uh the uh the line in a column of line employees of the department and you talk about writing and correcting bringing up-to-date policies and getting rid of aging policies that no longer apply and reflect today's circumstances but I can hear in my mind I can hear the long time longer time employees and it filters down to the newer employees this is just another BS component central office and we hear that all the time and I wish we could find out a way to help you get by that particular statement and every time something goes sour we hear that statement and willing to try to help figure that out and I have no idea how to get by that and I don't know would you even you have an answer for that but it just maybe you could comment on that Heather there's some obvious um the easy go-tos on that is that the reality around uh transitioning leadership it's very difficult to create steadiness when when there is constant transition with regards to leadership that's an that's an easy go-to and I'm sure not shocking there isn't a department that I've worked with that includes my national colleagues that doesn't have the same conversation around the mistrust of headquarters and how that impacts everyone in the field or on the line that said and in many regards this is a much deserved reputation and that's not easy to say but it is and with regards to this committee's offer to to assist I think any any opportunity that we have to fully understand particularly with Commissioner Baker has opened up the cannell worms in every area right that's a testament to um how we can't do one thing at a time we can't just focus in one area so if we focused only on recruitment that doesn't do much for attrition for example we can keep bringing people in but if the quality of their experience doesn't change they're not going to stay if um we don't rec if we don't create a work environment that says you're welcome here and you're welcome to speak your mind um we're not going to we're not going to go to the we're not going to go to the next step in terms of building capacity to have the leadership that has the stamina that's going to keep um that's going to create a leadership climate that says this is that this is what our mission is additionally around um it's trust right if my when people say it's just lip service from central office the underlying message in my in my opinion is I don't trust them or if there's change I haven't experienced it and one way to experience change um from the top down is you've gotta it's gotta show up in your day to day experience putting out an email doesn't necessarily affect someone's um job description it's a message changing a policy um may let people know what the rules are now but it may not affect the way someone feels and I think that that employee engagement it's measured in a number of different ways uh the department of human resources puts out surveys every year to ask people what their experiences that's an area where I think we need some more we need more support and expertise what are the what questions the questions we're asking need to in some way match the goal we're trying to get at and uh when we follow an employee from the beginning for example from recruitment through your whole career and ask the same questions we're going to get a sense of why people stay or leave or why they report or not report or even why they're terminated all of that is me saying that isn't going to change um a probation officer's day today it's it's it's my thinking around the next best um plans but it won't necessarily change um co jones's experience at a facility or probation officer's um experience in the field and so that concept of we have to put our money where our mouth is it's going to take some time and we need to show some evidence of the experience we're trying to see and that can't happen in just one area it also can't happen too fast so I I agree and I look forward to working with you on this I hope in January I hope I hope uh but uh we have to we as legislators tell you to do a lot of things and so you take the brunt of our suggest no of things we tell you to do and so you guys take the brunt of that and that has to be trans I think that has to be transmitted to you to to the line employees that it's not always central office is fault but the other piece that I've come to learn over the years is you run up a large company if you take it to the to the uh into the private sector with 1100 employees or something like that it if that if you were a standalone company we would be throwing money at you to get you to stay here or whatever but you run a large company and every time that there's a broad excuse me there's a budget problem it seems to me that the legislature goes to corrections and I think about that on some past actions that have happened we built we borrowed money from corrections a few years back to do some office some some building work in St. Albans we borrowed it from corrections and I don't I'm not sure Alice you'll have to help me I don't know if we ever we paid you back or not but we got paid back but yeah but it was big money it was it was millions yeah so that's a culture that we have to change within the legislature to give you the support you need and uh that's something we can work on on our end I think thanks Heather and thank you all appreciate that thank you well coral uh thanks Alice good morning Heather nice to nice to see you and thanks for joining us um for another one of these conversations that we have nice to see you thank you for having me um I uh I know that we've talked a lot uh with you and with others about um hiring training supervision and culture um and but you you raised the grievance policy and and issues around that and I know that hiring and training and supervision feed into that um but it's that's also one of those places where um a lot of trust can be lost and there's certainly opportunities for any sort of bias or inequity inequity to be um amplified within that process and so I'm wondering if you could talk just a little bit more about what your vision for that is and I'm not talking I mean I don't mean so much in that how people use it but all but how it's applied and is there are there changes that need to be made there that um that we need to be thinking about too and to yes as long as I am I understand the grievance process for our fender population and how that effect affects the department and the workforce well there's there's really two pieces there there's the um and I know I understand this is fraught with issues around labor too but there's the there's the internal there's the offender there's the offender piece and then there's the employee piece right so um the employee piece I think um would it just so one thing we know with regards to our attrition rates is um sometimes people are sometimes leaving because of the experience they're having at the work site and that's not necessarily attached to central office though it may be indirectly so for example if central office determines that um you know mandatory over time then that's not really that that's not really going to lend itself to the responsibility of the work site what we do know is that the quality of the experience between the employee and the supervisor and their colleagues means more than most in terms of inspiration and willingness to attend training and um a stick-to-itiveness to understand the larger mission all of this in turn is going to affect someone's um stamina around uh seeing the supervision practices differently so when law enforcement for example talks about fair and impartial policing what we're talking about is fair and impartial supervision and as you know it's been a long road for law enforcement to um fully understand how to even measure that experience that the complexities around again it's around rules so when you're breaking the law and and you're pulled over are you pulled over for a specific reason or you pulled over because um you're breaking the law and how that gets dissected and evaluated and then in turn um addressed through training and policy takes some time so to your point around the grievance process which is what we need to get a better understanding of the experience of the offender if they have agreements if they're making a complaint um there's the complaint itself then there's uh how is it how does it lend itself to um the rules around what they can say is a complaint and then what is the experience around that actual complaint so if it's um medical slips or I didn't get you know I didn't get the food that I wanted or I the mail that I know I was supposed to receive I didn't get that those are the measurables but getting to the part where why does this keep happening to the same person if the same person in the same grievance or the same officer in the same grievance and we can't make assumptions about the officer either sometimes if the same officer getting a lot of grievances it might be the same officer doing what they're supposed to be doing all the time so I'm not making assumptions about what direction that goes in the quality of the training is going to be around how we measure cooperation and how much can we do before we get to a grievance how much do we need to do before we get to the part where people are complaining or going out um now I'm talking about the workforce what what can we do to get in front of the employee experience before they're taking so much sick time you we don't know if they're actually sick or they don't want to come to work those are the topics where um not everything not when I say not everything is training that that may not be a training issue but that's a management issue in terms of what's happening in the workplace but the content around the training again becomes critical and that is what do we value how do we use the complaint system what are we trying to measure and what's the interaction between employees and the population we serve even during that process how do we handle you know how do we give someone the paperwork to make a complaint how does that even is that a respectful interaction am I am I am I am I using eye contact am I looking for further information all of those things can be incorporated into the way we do business but what we haven't done in the past is really get a handle on the nuances on the lower end and I think that's going to come in with um that data collection I can see how the data collection and the training supervision hiring piece would help a lot a lot with this but I also think there's there's some real challenges in having a a command and control department in the agency of human services and how you know how it's it's that that piece that I'm constantly reminded of and that dichotomy and and the complexity of that that issue and the culture around that too um and how how do we get at that to have better outcomes for everyone not just not just our our inmates but when they eventually leave but also staff and CEOs and everyone else all the way up to the front office so all right thank you thank you for that I appreciate that Heather thank you I hope I answered some of the question so well there's a there's a we can have a long conversation about that but we don't want to necessarily have the time okay I will be in January for sure Sarah sure thanks um this is kind of a I hope a brief short question what what is the existing training for staff on you know but what I would call bias training so that can be inclusive of um you know racial bias gender bias um all all of that well we have it's while we just did our work on the budget um it's not a very uh detailed we don't get down to the granular level how much um do you have with training so the training I'm talking about is after people come through the academy and like what's the professional development um training that that folks are expected to continue on and I um that's an area where we really are going to need to grow and those basic competencies that you refer to at the academy that's where it gets captured and there's there's a number of hours um after that it falls under our competency or our stip our stipend program but we don't have mandatory what we would um what I think some agency's called diversity training or cultural competence it's been built into other areas um it's incorporated into various topics that we already deliver but hard and fast equity race and equity training program that I could say is you know 40 hours is not across the board and we've only barely gotten there in terms of our leadership training which covered a pretty much was the focus of the week but that's uh that's a capacity building program that is um I think we've got about 75 folks that have been through that in a few years and that is not um representative of where we need to go in terms of that content the um depending on your job class you may or may not have much a lot more of those conversations so certainly if you're working in the restorative justice areas of the department I can't tell you how many hours or what the specific content is but it's quite a lot more than you would have access to if you're a co for example um field managers have a lot more latitude in terms of who they bring in to speak or what or how or when and how those folks go to training but again I'm I think you're asking a more standard question if I'm correct and I couldn't tell I couldn't tell you yeah I think most of us are educated understanding what folks have access to now it sounds like if you're a co you don't actually have access to a lot of this uh training nor is it required currently required right it's it's built into um I mean there is there's cultural competence training um that includes um workforce coordinators that includes discrimination um sexual harassment uh lgbtq training pathways and profiles or pathways and profiles is the um the content where we discuss um the incarcerated of experience and how one might get there and it really does get to things like bias in terms of how we judge the people that we serve so I don't want to sell a short in terms of the discussions and the content but at the same time we have so much more to do currently well I could one thing that's uh very useful recently is letting the is letting the groups steer us a little bit so Tabitha Moore for example has come into a number of meetings with the basic framework that we were going to begin discussing things like um you know person's personal journey um restorative efforts um what bias means what people really want to know about is what's going is what their work experience is in relation to what's happening right now so what do we mean when we say defund police what does black lives matter really mean to you and to me and to my colleagues and how do I um develop the skills to even manage that conversation what are what are the dynamics and nuances around the fact that it often seems like black lives matters is versus blue lives matters those are all very important discussions that I haven't asked my staff or any consultant to attach there's no test for that I wouldn't I wouldn't um I wouldn't want to measure that experience for someone because really what it is it's the space to trust to start talking and given that you know corrections is um it's it's a partnership in law enforcement right so there's going to be a lot a lot of real feelings around um what that means in relation to what's happening in the community in addition to that for our black and brown employees what is their experience as they supervise black and brown offenders what does that mean to them understanding what structural racism is globally is different than having to work in our department and abide by their rules and protocols of a department that may or may not align with either one your individual experience or your opinion about the way things should be does that make sense thank you Heather it's you know it's it's it's partly us understanding you know the structures and you know in the educational programs and training that you do that will help us I think put language in that doesn't that that helps us reach this goal not that doesn't trip you up so um so thank you it's this is this is very helpful thank you much more there's much more to do so we have another question butch thanks uh Heather you just mentioned structural racism and I guess I don't know exactly what that means can you help me learn about that a little bit because that may be a place where we can launch some language from I don't know that I'm the person that should be speaking to it um what I what I what I mean when I say it in terms of the work we have to do is um that the system itself the criminal justice system itself has set up to be racist and this we know this and those intercept points as someone enters into the criminal justice system start far before incarceration hence the term pipeline right and then of course um the experience of someone post incarceration meaning the stigma that we carry after we serve a sentence or we're under supervision what does that mean in terms of being able to get um a job um or a loan I think that um the uh pretty much opening the can of worms on that conversation for the department of corrections is being able to let our guard down um to open our eyes and to really fully admit that the prison system period really comes from um a racist perspective and that our original prisons from the south built on plantations and that is a very rich history of punishment of failure you know imbalanced of power and we don't have to go that far back I'm a little hesitant representative shot to go much further because there's so many more people much so much smarter than me that could speak to this in a thoughtful way for for planning purposes where I sit it's really about acknowledging the whole thing oh as as the chair said when we started we're trying to develop excuse me develop some language that we can build on uh in the next session and because we don't want to lose our place where we are today and you just made a very very very you just made a very strong statement that said criminal justice system is set up to be racist we need to get we need to get to the bottom of that we're not going to get to the bottom of that certainly today but we need to figure out what that means and and I hope we can and we may be able if I don't know what else we may be able to incorporate that in into into some language thank you that's what I'm thinking I'm thinking a variety of things here and it may be good for us to spend the next 15 minutes or so just to see what we're all thinking that we need to encompass within the language um we have another question Kurt uh yeah which I think you've raised a very good point um and I'd like to pursue it and Heather you said that uh there are other people who could speak a lot better about this do you have some suggestions that people we could bring in who might be able to better uh tell us about the structural racism in the judiciary system well um yes I think you mentioned all of their names right before we started this morning um certainly director Davis um Tabitha who's been working with us a little bit Eitan Bore Yang um any any of the number of the national consultants associated with the MAS group they're doing a lot of equity work um across the country that I'm trying to think um uh it would be good if there was somebody who's knowledgeable about Vermont's corrections and judiciary system also which I you mentioned several that are actually so that helps yeah Curtis Reed as well okay and collaboratively I think you know we're prepared we're prepared to start you know we're prepared to participate in this language and we've been doing um we've been doing our homework around this I think for us it's how do we put you know what's the what's the timeline look on this where do we start um and that's when I say that I don't mean that we haven't started but in terms of being able to bring you product that looks a lot like a schedule and some content um that's going to be more than just training topics that we're talking about a shift in practices across the board okay so I just want to open this up now we've got like 15-20 minutes for the committee to really think about what some of the language we need to put together so while you're thinking then I'm going to ask Heather another question Heather a lot of policies and protocol that occurs within DOC is done through your directives I'm assuming that a lot of what we are talking about here will require really looking at your directives and bringing those into line with what we're speaking of does that make sense yes and that's going to be a heavy lift very who's how many directives total do you have how many hundreds I don't know I want to take a stab at it but I'll I'll get in trouble I'll get it so wrong I think there's the number that we have the number that we don't need and the number that we need to fix and I could get you the answer to all of those but if I think I understand your your point it's around not so much writing another direct directive on race and equity but how are we changing the way we do business so that it's clear that we've addressed race and equity in our use of force directive it's clear that it's that our de-escalation training and our behavior continuum reflects the work that we're doing in this area and what whether it's security practices or supervision practices or grievances or reporting or investigations if I'm hearing you that's what you're thinking mm-hmm that said that's that's that's equal if not more amount of work because it's taking something we've done undoing it and then and then messaging messaging a new way of doing things and then once that has occurred where the protocol is now different because the directive is different how does that get translated to current line staff because in the past that has been an issue that sometimes it was just done during what was called roll call it was a formal way of updating the correctional officers in terms of what has changed is that practice still in place or is it done differently well I'm pausing because you know COVID has changed our lives in terms of messaging in some ways it's freed us up to get together more often but not obviously not in person a roll call still happen I think um I'd have you know I really would be looking to my to our facilities exec Al Cormier and the commissioner and our security folks to support what I say I think they would agree with me that roll calls a short period of time and that's a place for updates not a place to change minds and again not to put you know not to put all the emphasis on training I think when we change the way that we experience meetings or or message from the top down that's going to be critical to excuse me to your point around how does it get to line staff often it's got to be often we can't we cannot assume that when we say something or do something announce something or implement something that it's it's we just need to say it once and I you know I often think that that's lost on us because once I say it it's off me we're so busy and we're so overwhelmed that I think internally we just sort of decide okay if we finished it and we push it in this direction it's now embedded and that's not necessarily the case the commitment from out from central office to make sure that we're pulling in leadership from all the worksites this is one area where I you know I'm pretty optimistic about this shift is that there's no more you know there's no driving to meetings right now which allows for us to have more conversations whether any nobody wants more meetings so I'm not saying that but there isn't anything getting in the there shouldn't be a misunderstanding because we all you know for the most part we all have access to this to this platform that challenge doesn't go away for line staff in a facility it's not you can't just hop on a meeting many of that our field and facility staffs even if they do have access to computers don't have cameras so work doing work in the affective realm becomes really hard but we'll we'll have to we're going to have to be that's a merit for me that's the marathon not the sprint in terms of this work then additionally it's accountability for us that when we message that we're that we that there's a loopback mechanism for knowing message received and being practiced and that's going to require a considerable commitment from not just from central office but from management in general and then structure set up to see that so we have another question and then I want to shift gears into the committee really brainstorming about what language we'd like to include and Phil just reminded me we have until 1030 today not 10 o'clock sorry so Kurt uh yes Commissioner Baker has mentioned a couple of things one was um the centralization of hiring uh or recruiting and also he said the next training class that's going through in october will be significantly different in terms of how they're selected and how they're vetted and things like that can you has that change uh or how's that changed with the centralization of recruiting going and what sort of uh changes was he talking about for the next class of of co trainees great thank you so the um excuse me the so the whole experience for the last few academies has been different because of social distancing and the number that we can allow into um into the academy and it's a it's condensed so that we're focused only on um the essential competencies we'll have to go back and um revisit training for all of these folks but it's we really were just it was risk mitigation for us in terms of uh in-person contact when the commissioner referred to the october class that's the last class um uh that he's approved in order for us to um keep moving with a change in what you call the standardizer centralized hiring practices those practices are being developed right now by our recruitment office and that is um what we mean by standardized is that we uh we will not take away um power from any of the work sites but more that we need to know um we're all going to be asking the same questions and uh I don't believe that that's you know happened we've had some consistency over the years but just basic interview questions for every facility should be the same so that they would be scored from the perspective that um if you could if you were hired you could work anywhere background checks um as you know we haven't taken the dive we should and so those processes are getting put in place right now in terms of um what we're looking for but how we're looking into uh work history um and history in general references and um again this won't be we're not trying to cookie cutter this from any other agencies I know that there are some things about us they're a little different we get a lot of young people that come work for us so that may or may not have five or six years of experience before they come in we also have folks that are transitioning from the military at way too young and hate if you ask me but still very young and so um we're again working with Tabatha and how we set the framework for uh interview questions that capture integrity uh openness to diversity resilience um which is a little more that gives us some a little more latitude than say your um your your last three jobs for example um and we're also we're also uh researching um other uh assessment tools and for example I think the state police uses the MMPI which is psychological testing but we're committed to um looking at all avenues where we can get a sense of someone's fit for uh the kind of work that corrections is right now which is much more than just security down the line I understand the um the Harvard Implicit Association test is controversial but um have you thought of using that to test implicit bias and in the any recruits we have and everything's on the table we used it for our first leadership class um that um I think that is one of a number of areas that the recruitment team is looking at in terms of um assessment and um even you know entrance exams that's not off the table either but I think what we want you know we we want to be open to the fact that um not all it's not all testing and not all exams are are relevant either right so when we're testing what are we what are we testing for yeah that that that one in particular would be interesting to see over time if if uh uh a CEO took it at the at the uh during training and then took it after a couple of weeks on the job and then took it after every year just to see how things develop with that the response has developed but anyway okay I think they take it at the police academy I think they do so we have another question Sarah thanks I'm just I'm responding to the question you asked Alice about like what we're thinking about some of this is that appropriate now like to um because I I'm thinking I know we all kind of want to get down to what the action steps should be here but my sense is that we're looking at almost like asking for the department to to do of um come back to us with a series of recommendations like so um and I'm hearing things around the topics of the training is one of them but also the grievance process um um to me it might be helpful to see to to also have you share like where this um where the different kinds of training um and competencies exist within the DOC's professional development it sounds like you're already doing some really good stuff with Tabitha Moore um and um she's pretty amazing and um I'm wondering if she shouldn't be part of like your if she could be one of those people to help you um to do this work I know she's this is she does a lot of different things I think this is not her um full-time work I don't think um yeah um so that's a like it's a resource if that's a bit of a resource um need to be able to do it I just you know I think we're asking the department um to do something that yes we know that the commissioner is supportive of and wants to do but we know that it is like on top of your usual business um and so I think it's important as we're asking this to have some kind of um we know that money doesn't solve all the problems but I think that there's a resource and capacity question you know because some of it is I think I'd like to hear where it exists and you know like when I've been um employed or even like serving in the legislature we have trainings and it's we don't do them you know we're given time off from our jobs within the time of our jobs to do the training like it's carved out and it sounds like within corrections given our staff shortages and everything that that's really challenging like you know doing it to carve out that time um so I you know for me this report or recommendations it's it's almost like DOC going back I I I loathe to think of the idea of having to go back through the 500 or so directives that you have but that might be um part of it but I you know I just want to make sure we're giving we're we're giving you the tools because that you need because it's not May we're in September and we're going to be back in just a matter a short number of months this is going to be um something that we are going to be dealing with in the next um biennium as well right Madam Chair I mean this is about like how do we this is like a step and support of direction to have you do this work that your art that we all want to have happen so if you can you know I mean from your talking today I'm hearing a few kernels of where we could do that but any any areas uh I'm not sure if I if I'm uh so facile with all the categories of work you know with within DOC of like where are some things that we should where we should be focusing because we could just send you on a wild goose chase um so I'm going to intervene here a little bit so what I'm thinking you're asking for what are a couple of three specific items that DOC and whomever can really look at and come back with recommendations to us come January and then the second part of the question is really dealing with does DOC do this on their own or they or do they do it in consultation with other entities or thirdly are those entities at the table with DOC in looking at those two or three items to come back to us for recommendations is that sort of sum up Sarah what you were looking at well said well yeah okay so Heather um yes I think that um with regards to the potential for resources any area where we have consults that create space for people to um get creative about the learning is going to be really important and what I mean by that is um the department is huge so those focus if we're going to pull in the community focus groups and then the community are going to be very important and that's going to work that requires its own artful strategy and I think that there are plenty of consultants that are skilled in doing that how that I'm just going to stop here we have a different thinking of consultant what we usually do when we're setting up legislative like a report back with an entity saying you got to report back we we do a couple of things one is it's the entity itself that will do all the work and report back another part is we want voices from the outside to be expressed so that entity would reach out to in consultation with them and say hey give us some feedback and this is the right thing to do so that's when we say to consult with someone that's what we on the legislative end in a report are referring to the other option is some members of the advocate community could actually be part of the folks who are doing this look see and report back so it wouldn't be all on the shoulders of doc but they'd have other partners there also doing the work with them and then that whole group can also consult with other groups so that's what we're trying to get at Sarah and I think while I appreciate the idea of reaching outside like the community I I think what we're talking about is is a bit of a more internally focused is that not right about training and competencies and processes around bias so because I well I appreciate the um what you're talking about Heather with having the community inform this I think I think for this what we're talking about I think is more of an an internal internally focused and it might be some of those outside consultancies whether they're national or regional I mean and within our state we have some like the human rights commission I mean we have we have some resources that that um can help doc and in fact I know that you're all part of this like we have a big is a big group working with the um on the data the racial data work that came out of s338 but this is a separate focus I feel like some of those people might be some of the same players but I think like for yang um could be somebody that we might want to hear from on this topic with the human rights commission and and how they might be able to you know bring their you know resources without it necessarily being like an outside consultancy um uh but they're that that's what they're that's what a lot of the work that they do that's what we're talking about like is yeah so yeah I apologize if I misunderstood I can't I can't see us doing work without what without those stakeholders right um or being one of them certainly um with my role with the criminal justice training council as vice chair have been to and been involved in many discussions where um those stakeholders and advocacy groups and agencies have um not just assisted but also provided different lenses in terms of how you know how we get how we get to the end and the things that we have to have to consider I probably can't you know can't rattle them all off off the top of my head but HRC seems like it you know absolutely um needs to be a part of these discussions where I've already met with director Davis for example um a long-standing relationship um with aton in terms of his consult um migrant justice I believe we've worked with recriminal justice training council on all of it I can't I'm I can't really I don't I couldn't really um I can't think of why we wouldn't make that part of not just focus groups but advisory as as well if that's where if I'm understanding you representative coffee that is that what you're trying to is that what you're getting at well I think so and I think with this we're talking about I think our chair can speak more to this but I think in this there are two pieces of legislation working there around um uh around police reforms and that this would be in connection and a lot of it's around some of them around use of for it one is around use of force the other one has aspects of training and I think our thinking was how we can include corrections because it's part of our criminal justice system so um I think it's about getting a report back and so it's more about the mechanics on how we get that back like you know if it's and to do to do a report it is pulling together a series of focus groups for that's the way many other groups work and I'm acutely aware of that like that we're really going to be talking about what can be done in three months right I mean or or unless we say something I mean because we're in September now so I think we want to be I at least I want to be kind of realistic about you know giving a support and direction but also that we know that it's part of a um a continuum of some work that needs to be done and that support and direction would not be the nuts and bolts it would be sort of the 10 000 foot look and this is what we're really starting to see or areas that we really should be focusing on because I think you know I go back to some of the statements that um we've made this morning that you know the mission of corrections is really for rehabilitation and that um security is a piece of that but there's more to security than just the use of force um and that there is fair and impartial supervision and how do you define that how does that get carried out within our fractional facilities but also um out in the field um and also the statement that um DOC really has the role of the implementation of the quality of a person's sentence and time and how do we achieve that those are statements that kept resonating in terms of what we need to say in our language but that's the goal of what we're looking at and trying to achieve and if we have a report back I mean I don't know if there's any other way of doing it but it's just to get the thought process going and laying the foundation for what Commissioner Baker is really envisioning um the culture change within DOC and legislation that needs to occur with that come January so this is really the very very top level of how we do this. Does that make sense and does that make sense to the committee members want to weigh in? I don't want to put everything on Heather's shoulders here I want members to kind of help give direction here. Anyone, Kurt? What in doubt, Kurt? Your microphone go down before your hand went up. Yeah I don't know I'm I'm uh I'm unsure of our role at this point um I can see that they're that that we're needing some changes but I'm not I don't know whether requiring DOC to do more just contribute contributes I mean even in terms of a report back to us they're going to tell us the things that they've been telling us in in committee uh and what we want what I want are specific kinds of things that we can as a committee and as our role as a committee actually have DOC do and I can't think of things outside of resources and you know just money people buildings things like that that we can't because we don't dictate policy we can't say maybe we can say pass a law that says you can't use certain holds in a prison either um and the kind of use of force you can use in a prison is that is that our role also is that the kind of legislation that we're talking about or that seems to me to be dipping too far in but I'm not sure so I'm I'm not sure where we're going with this. I think I think the issue is more we understand corrections and we understand that it's part of the criminal justice system and when you're looking at fair and impartial policing you also need to look at fair and impartial corrections and we understand that because we're immersed in DOC our colleagues and the rest of the world don't think of corrections until there's an issue that occurs such as the situation with Mr. Johnson well then should we be able to should we be able to then mirror what the judiciary committee is doing with fair fair and impartial policing and say use whatever they're using in uh to within the prison system it may not transfer quite like that Sarah your head was shaking well I think the mission of corrections is different than that of law enforcement and so I think that I think we can take the lead from you know I think we're going to be there's there's a parallel process but I think you know we want to we want to tune it to corrections and I think there is a clear role for us about setting helping to set a direction you know we have a wonderful interim commissioner who's stayed on longer um but I think and we've and we're um I think many of us are are really pleased with his leadership but we want a commitment to this but I think we want to make sure that this is kind of formal there's a formalized process to move this along and I think right now um Vermonters are asking us for this um you know and as we're thinking about so so anyway I would just say I think we can do something that is um you know appropriate for the timing of this and and and maybe keep it pretty tightly focused um and and encourage the department to come back to us I mean I think you we're going to be looking to you to to inform us to help inform um what uh future policy if it's legislative changes that we need to make um um another question Carl your statement yeah not so much a question this more of a statement I I think there's there's a real opportunity here for us to um use this opportunity I mean we have we have an opportunity here to move the training hiring uh supervision piece along in the context of this because it's a big part of the this issue of racial racial equity and and uh so I think there are ways for us to do this that are separate from um what might be happening in the in the um public safety world um more in the human services world and it's just you know are going to be our job to figure out how to do that so the question any suggestions wow that's what we're talking with Heather today is this is a fantastic first step in our conversations with the commissioner I think also uh you know we can build on all of this um and it's not so much that I I I hear Kurt sort of uh you know um thinking about what our role is in this but you know our our our role can be that sort of broad policy and and to and to a certain degree encouraging the commissioner and encouraging Heather and the front office to um you know go after this stuff and and giving them the the uh you know being the basically the fuel to help them do that I don't know if that makes if that makes sense but I think there's a there's a fantastic opportunity here so the question is how what do we do with this opportunity do we do it in terms of poor butch as hung his head do we do it as having a report back to us do we do it as just making a statement and putting that language in one of those bills do we have an action or do we have a statement the action is not going to be we're going to hire more people we're going to change the training like this because we're not at that level Carl did you have your hand up again or no I I I think the I think what we do is we work with the commissioner on the package that he has talked about but the deeper package really won't be until january that's right yeah so do we do something just to lay the groundwork for that yes for those of us who are back in january and I hope we're all back yeah um this is uh these are sort of uh the the ice breaking discussions to start that process and the question is what's the best way for that ice breaking discussion well we've only got what two more weeks to ice break one one more week to ice break so I you know there's there's a limited amount that we're going to be able to get done here but I think just having having these discussions is a big step forward butch thanks Alice and I'm firmly in the camp of Kurt I we don't need another report uh that an interim report that shows whatever for a three-month period but what we need is to continue encourage doc to continue on the path that they're on uh in some form to not slow their their work down uh Heather you have what 1100 employees or something like that in doc that's a really big shift to turn and we're talking about turning a huge ship with ingrained just ingrained culture within doc this is going to take some time we're nothing we do today is going to be visible by january uh maybe about the 14 or 18 recruits that are in the next to candy october academy that that might do something but this is a huge project this is a huge job I think we just really need to make a statement and this is what we're looking for or and this is the progress we want to see or or something else I'm not sure what that language might be today uh to to have another report or have a check back that's not going to do us any good I mean there's a bunch of semi-intelligent human beings sitting around this table that won't let this die and uh and I and I think uh I don't want to create more work for corrections that they don't need right now god we gave them enough work to do an s 338 if I if I may Heather um I I there's a couple things that have resonated with me um I spent a considerable amount of time with you in january um I won't speak to whether that was useful to the committee but for me and for our our department the opportunity to um to to outline how our business connects to culture was extraordinarily useful to us on many levels and so um though though there may not be um progress in three months perhaps you know we won't we won't uh we won't solve global warming so to speak um I do think that uh the efforts of this committee to fully understand um what what it means and compare to where we're going um that times and that effort's not lost that's not lost on me so uh what do we do now as opposed to where we're solidly headed by january um will be an important conversation for us if you're willing to have it the the other thing is the distinction um I I just feel a deep appreciation and respect for the distinction between where corrections is different than the rest of the system and in the most simplest term um our customers stay with us they stay they don't it's not um when you go through the court system you were you were going to go and there's an end point that's much shorter there there's a very short um experience with law enforcement but with us you stay you stay there is a relationship that's built whether you want to have one or not and that I think to your point madam chair with regards to fair and impartial supervision it's fair and impartial relationship right but there's going to be a relationship with the department if you're serving uh any kind of time with us and it's even the probation experience that's still um what I would call a stay experience if that makes sense and those are two um those two points um are separate and apart um not totally from the rest of the system but I do think that that's where we're going to have to focus a lot of our time I hope that was helpful okay um I uh you know I'm with butch and and curd on the uh and on that we don't need a report for this too I think in many ways we've got we've got a jump on this with s-338 and the racial disparity element of that um and I think we also have a jump because of some of the conversations that we had with heather back earlier in the year we know from talking with the commissioner about his um uh dedication to changing culture and um you know to butch's analogy of the ship I completely agree with that and there are maybe going to be times when the commissioner needs our hand on the wheel or needs us to ring up the engine room to get some more steam made but um I think uh and and there are going to be times when we're going to need to comment on the direction that he wants to go in but I'm I'm I think we're I think from a policy standpoint we're we're headed in the in the right direction here and it's it's just a matter of um not like uh heather said not letting that's or no butch said that not letting let not letting that slip so it's almost something that oh hang on mary it's almost saying like if we doing the language is providing the intent language and the support to doc to continue down the path of x y and z okay i'm going to go to mary first before you sarah okay um i just think it's very important that with whatever our intention language says that it says something fairly solid um my concern is we have a commissioner who is interim and you know yes I would love gyms we're staying for much longer um but again we don't know what the reality of that is and so I would not want us to put which we wouldn't but I wouldn't want just loosey goosey language to kind of act as though we're just moving along to the next stage of january I think we have to put something that is meaningful and is moving um the doc along to be continuing their efforts in this uh because again we don't know when we might look to lose Jim and have someone totally new coming in and that could be a whole game changer which I hope it would not be but I I think we need to continue strong and and what our thoughts are going forward that's a very good point mary thank you for that uh sarah oh I really appreciate what uh representative morrisey just said because that was those are where where I kind of land um that we need this language to be strong strong to give a clear direction I mean I think it could be as simple as I I would like I don't want to let go of the opportunity here of having this direction or directive that we might give it to be almost like a a precursor to a report or something I mean something as simple as identifying the challenges and the needs within the department around some you know uh bias training and grievance process you know to to to ensure equity um within our facilities um something like that but I I think I think if we don't ask for an action step we won't get an action so what you're saying is right that we we need strong language um with mary saying you know if there's a change at the helm uh there could be a different direction so our language needs to be strong we need to identify what the challenges are and the needs for that and I just lost what the other part was thank you that's there at the very end sort of it's almost like a vision statement you know like around like you know to promote equity uh for our staff and our the people who are in are under the care of corrections you know I think it's it's some of that language that we would normally put in the finding section of a bill but maybe you know um I think it's I think it's important here that we reinforce what corrections what we know corrections um to be about the focus on rehabilitation versus security um containment so you know I think also it was supporting legislation supporting uh package being introduced next session yes yeah to inform package yeah thanks for being helpful to hear um a couple of the bullets in terms of our own our own outline for language do you have those handy or not it's pretty much I mean it's pretty much what um I've been discussing but you know from a stepping off place that our workforce will be diverse um that our organization will be inclusive repetitive and restorative could you send that to Phil so that Phil can send that to us would you be able to happily it's not lengthy but maybe it's just a place to um to start yeah which which respectfully we needed as well in terms of the various areas in the end what you know what are we looking to see we're looking to see a diverse workforce we want our practices to be restorative repetitive inclusive and um probably no surprise to you that our leadership is accountable and it's accountable to the the community the workforce the people we serve supervise and their families that's very helpful Heather and I think it would be good if we had that written for us so if you could just put that in bullet form very simple yeah okay send it to Phil and Phil can send that out in an email to all of us does that work Phil yes okay great uh Kurt um yes I I understand that we're trying to get something out as quickly as possible but we are probably going to be in session until the end of September and we will be still legislators until January and there is justice oversight and those committees still meeting so I think it's important that maybe we after sometime late in September get the commissioner back in and just keep touching base on these issues that we're talking about and also keep keep an eye on joint justice oversight and you and butch can raise these issues during that I think that we just keep pushing at it and asking about time time marks or when they expect to get things done and whether those things get done as long as we keep focusing our attention on it I think things will get done but it takes a sustained effort and we're we're legislators until January and I intend to keep bothering the commissioner until then right right other folks there's some folks who haven't spoken do you want to weigh in at all no so does it seem like we have a path forward here folks that it's intent language and goal setting language and not a report back that where we're headed okay okay so Heather this has been very very helpful thank you you've always been very open and forthright with us it's been appreciated on this end and I want to thank you for that I appreciate the time and thank you right then so for tomorrow who do we have set up tomorrow Phil anyone excuse me I just heard from Susanna Davis he would be available for the first hour 8 30 to 10 30 oh that'd be great and if the chair would like I can ask Steve Howard to testify for the VSEA that would be helpful too that'd be great I have not yet heard back from Anthony Marks of the black perspective but might be able to fit him in as well if he agrees do we have till 10 30 tomorrow yes we do okay okay we've got two hours so that would be good that's that sounds good and and Becky will be with us too um and we can start working on some language heard do you still have your hand up or was that from I do okay I'm still I'm still concerned about Woodside I know the human services committee voted to close it October but there's also I'm not sure what closed means and there is litigation going on that talks about the legislature closing Woodside and I'm not sure what happens with the people that were the residents that were at middle sex when they how long they can stay at the psychiatric unit or whether we're still talking about tearing down part of Woodside and building a unit there for the middle previous middle sex people so I'd like to get an update on what's happening with Woodside well yeah I you know that was human services recommend to appropriations so appropriations will make that that decision within the budget whether to continue funding Woodside um or not that will then pass the house it will then go to senate approach where they will weigh in um so that will be the process I don't know what's going to happen I know that rift notices were sent out yesterday to the employees that Woodside with a day of the middle of October um in terms of our secure residential I have voiced this myself in terms of really trying to figure out where the the current folks who were in middle sex are they still at the Berlin psychiatric hospital where they've been moved back to middle sex um and just getting a handle on that one if they can stay this long at the psychiatric hospital why are we building a new facility period exactly yeah so um is there somebody who knows knows those things butch is saying yes so what's well I'm thinking Sarah squirrel would have a pretty good uh well they're gonna say build a new facility yeah and I think the the expected conversation that I was expecting yesterday and appropriations didn't happen did not happen because I know that the administration is pushing to put the secure residential Woodside so and if Woodside isn't closed then that delays the construction of the secure residential which then means a couple of things you've delayed the construction and you're waiting for Woodside to close or you're gonna put an option out on some land to build Marsha how much longer do we have before we'll have to return that FEMA money on middle sex if we don't do something with it I don't know I mean they gotta see if we have a plan right now we have a plan um I don't know I mean Kurt does the health care committee what are they what are they thinking about this about middle sex I know that they want to replace it as quickly as possible so therefore therefore uh building they're not saying that the psychiatric unit can be used or they're not weighing in at this point because their workload is focusing on other things at this point um this is a drawback of not being in the building and having these hallway conversations with folks and we're in a very short period of time with this session I don't know where to go with Woodside I mean the decision of Woodside is out of our hands it's not in our hands to make that decision we're not the policy committee the policy committee has a recommendation to appropriations committee to close Woodside now does appropriations committee agree with that within their budget world and what do they budget for Woodside our world is dependent on what those decisions are so at this point we're all sort of in a holding pattern we know where the administration wants to go they want Woodside closed and they want to start construction on the middle sex replacement at the Woodside land so whatever commissioner you're going to talk to in the administration is going to say that well let me ask you this then what what about the justice involved youth there would be under DOC jurisdiction or custody if there if something happens are we are we as it's our policy regarding those youth are we happy with them going to Beckett or over to Sununu in New Hampshire or what do we think should happen to them I think they're under the jurisdiction more of they're talking about DCF kids yeah they're under the care of the commissioner DC DCF and that's why the decision is in that committee but they they commit a crime the judge says they should go to Woodside yeah they're not under the custody of corrections but we're still involved are we because if there isn't a place they end up in the prison well you're talking about placement there isn't a place you know one of the issues if you this is what I'm going to say and I may get in trouble for saying it but we're going to make a decision if we make a decision to close Woodside and contract out that will be a decision that will be made but there will be situations down the road where whomever is taking care or providing the programs for the juveniles that they will want a state backup and what we're going to grapple with in a couple years down the road is where is that state backup and we're also going to be extending the youthful offender statutes that will put more pressure on the public on the community programming but we can see this but sometimes you just have to let it play out okay and I don't know where to go Woodside I don't and that in our middle sex replacement we could get in the commissioner bts and the commissioner of mental health and have these conversations um well we could look at our knowledge it's not going to change some of the direction if it's not if it's not under our uh um if it's not under our doc mandate it's it would might be under our institutions mandate correct in terms of figuring out about the secure residential replacement yeah uh sarah and then butch it seems to me we made a decision during the session about the facility when we with the capital bill and I guess I loathe to go back and undo some of that decision because I think what two years ago we we said that the replacement of the middle sex facility was a top priority and the capital bill reflected that priority and so there's money in there and we worked with our colleagues in the committee of jurisdiction and I'm not really in favor of second guessing that decision because I I think it'd be good to get an update possibly but I'm not I'd like to see us move forward rather than unravel a decision that doesn't this doesn't seem to be the appropriate time to do that I think an update from the commissioner when we last had commissioner Cole in when he was commissioner he said it all depended on some of the decision points that were just made yesterday um as to how they'll move forward and um it seems like now is a moment where things can move forward so butch so the fate of the whole thing now rests in house appropriations and senate appropriations and we can talk about this all we can talk about it but until they make a decision we're we're stuck I mean we just somebody has to say to us build the building and but and this is this is I guess we have we'll have to make that decision after the appropriations committees are got the budget out I mean if there's no money after you know October 1 or whatever then there's just no money but I don't think that's to say I think it's a valid question to ask that the secure residential folks due to COVID got moved into the psychiatric hospital and how is that working out and is that a possibility of going forward or not I agree that's a that's a question that we need to ask because if we can if we really dig down find out you don't need that secure residential facility in in a wood size location what's next but yeah I guess that's a question we have to ask and they're still there I guess I remember testimony from I think it was Commissioner Cole that the reason they haven't moved back to middle sex is because there is so much damage and they don't want to put a lot of money in the middle sex until they figure out what's next and then within the next two weeks we're going to know what's next right but I would like to know how if this is having the folks there at the psychiatric hospital in Berlin has been disruptive to mental health department of mental health and to the flow of folks going into a step down and moving from level one beds. Marsha? I don't think open and middle sex back up for anything's an option. It might be what we hear so then and it might not be an option to keep them at the psychiatric hospital which then expedites the decision on wood side. But I mean to put anybody in those living conditions in middle sex is sad. Okay so that may be towards Anna next week folks. So it's after 10 30 trying to move on we're on the floor this afternoon at two o'clock. The other thing too I want to give you folks a heads up that the Appropriations Committee is getting some language put together and I ask for us to be notified of this when the language gets done in looking at our space needs for when we reconvene in January up in Montpelier. It's very similar I'm thinking to what we talked about Tuesday with the Sergeant arms you know looking at the different spaces within the capital complex for committee rooms and making at least a decision there in terms of the space needs. So I'm understanding there may be some language in the appropriations bill in the budget that pertains to that and I've asked that our committee can be in the loop when that language gets developed so we can take a look at it and what I'm hearing attracts what we heard as I said from the Sergeant arms and what they've been looking at. So that's kind of in the works right now upstairs. Alice when will when will we be talking again about our PRC's in regards to the COVID language I know we were all checking with our local groups when will we be discussing that again. I think we made the decision just to keep just to keep the money as is in the CRF. Right that was what I thought but I didn't know if we were coming back to even discuss what we found out when we talked with our groups. I think I wasn't planning on having us come back so to speak unless you've got information you want to share with us I was thinking maybe the information will go more towards Matt and Derek up at the DOC. Right but how do they get the information if we're not I mean that was one of the things because I know we discussed that technically you know we were we wanted the language to stay in place but I know with the discussion I had with my CRJs here in Bennington is that they had put out their request for things that they needed through Derek but then there's been no absolutely no movement on it. And so how do we get there to be possible movement if the requests have been out and they're wanting to try to you know get the different things such as the laptops and another equipment that will you know make life a little bit easier going forward in the COVID world so how does that work? So I think Sarah can help clarify some of this Sarah so so Mary I heard similar things and I think what we heard what we where we landed with Matt yesterday in and in conversations with him is that he is going to work with Derek to to bring that group together to first communicate there's been a communication issue where our community justice centers have put in these requests and they have heard nothing so I think and they probably needed to say thank you we got it we're working on it we're going to get right back to you which didn't happen so Matt said they could do that and he also made a commitment there are a couple of them who didn't make requests and we know that they're he wants to circle back with them to make sure that everybody has access who needs needs some financial support with COVID related expenses and also to make sure that people were including all the things that they could include in this request I think there was a little bit of confusion about how these dollars could be used in comparison with their grant so my understanding is that a communication and and it was great you kind of asked for that like a communication will come out from DOC to all of the community justice centers so if we're hearing right getting that we should we should we can get in touch with Matt I'm happy to help with that I've been in touch with Jill Evans too to let her know where we landed so that she can help with that she's she's right I just want to make sure I just want to make sure that it's a timely communication back and forth because you know this does need to move in order for folks to get the the necessary equipment they need to do their job and um and so I somehow if there is a possibility even within a week to ask if someone can come back as to where are you with the communications with all the CRC's and um and move that along so that that money doesn't just kind of easily say oh they can't use it and it can get shifted somewhere else because I think if we're having these agencies in our communities um board they need the equipment in order to do the job that's a good point Mary and um what and Marsha's has her hand up and Marsha was the other area that she was going to check in I believe well when we talked to Matt the other day he said that these grants that he had people that had requested would be going out next week and he was going to email you and let you know that they went out and who they went to and how much they were so he promised next week so that's what I told my justice center so maybe for all of us we keep tabs on this and if you're hearing from your local justice center that they haven't received anything by the end of next week that we just individually email Matt d'Agostino and say what's up here because my CJC hasn't received anything as I asked my CJC to make sure they emailed me next week as to whether they got anything or not right so that may be the best way that we are the conduits individually for our respective CJC and then email Matt and say hey wait a minute where is it I'm hearing nothing's arrived yet at my at my center does that make sense for folks yeah and I mean that's great I just want to make sure that even the ones that we don't have a jurisdiction over with our committee members that those folks were at least capped as well that was why I was just requesting to possibly have Matt or Derek or whomever kind of have a little bit of information back to us as well right I'm looking at us we got the state pretty well covered one way or another for that uh Sarah were you gonna say something and I can also I I'm I'm can keep in touch with Jill Evans this next week um because she has a view of all of the she's the kind of liaison between the 18 community justice centers in the legislature and I'm happy to I've been keeping in touch with her and making sure that this these dollars get to the places where we intended them to get so I can I can be in touch with you Alice if I hear that there are any wrinkles and then that works how does that say in addition to the work that individual members are doing that works that's fine so anything else before we sign off a YouTube and sign off the committee anything else phil you're all set for tomorrow and then Tuesday we'll start with Becky on some intent language anything else great so thank you folks for tuning in and we will see you all tomorrow morning at 8 30