 Llyr congratulations to you, too. Thank you, boarder浦. Thank you, Jamie, the British Library. It's wonderful to be back, albeit this slightly truncated form. The Musebusch rather than a multi-course feast. There will be many more courses online on online. Those of you who are here can encounter your main course, your entré, your puddings, cheese, port, or your tarlys and grulabjamuns. a Several more delicious and tasty offers online. The British Library remains an extraordinary place where we can project these discussions, these sessions. This year marks, as Sanjoy and Amte said, 75 years of Indian independence Rwyf i'r cymdeithas oed yn Ysgrifedd Cymru, ac mae gen i'w wneud y gallwch gael y dyma'r ddechrau o'r cwmdeithas, yn y Llyfriddor Bryddiad. Felly yn y cwmdeithas, mae'r bod ni'n ddweud yng nghwyllt yma. Mae'r ddweud yma o Gandig' a Neru, yma'r Ddwech Ddwech Rhaibbos, yma'r Gyny, ac yna'r ddwech yma'r ddwech ar gyfer ddwech i'r gwych. ac yn ymmellio i'r safbwylliant, ac yn ymellio, Y Ysgolwyr, yn 35 ymlaen o ddweud o ddweud o'r ddweud o'r dweud o Cymru, I'n bod yn fwy o'r ddweud o'r ddweud. Rwy'n ei ddweud i'w gwaith ymlaen, Rwy'n ei ddim yn ei ddweud o'r rwyf yn i Sabiol i ysgolwyr. Maen nhw'n gyda'r ddweud o y ddweud o ddweud, Felly yn y cysylltu sydd o'r ddweud o ddweud o'r ddweud o'r ddweud, frofi, mae'n cyntaf gweithio — a sef ddigonwch chi'n gweithio'r entai a sidd yourdei hyn o'r rechれ o'r cymryd ymdegon o wglau. Si'n dechrau y maen nhwach ynghylch a yw'r sodom o gyllideb yn cyflym ac yn ychydig arlai i maen nhw i'n hyffreddiech i'r hyn o'r-, i'n hyffreddiech hwnnw— fwy o ychydig i'r barf, i'w perareu i'n hefyd, i'n hefyd i'r hyffreddiech yn cymdeithasol, ac mae'r cymdeithasol, ac mae'r cynw'r cyfrwsau, a'r kerfodol yn niwn. A o'r cyfrwsau yn y cyfrwsau yn drawd yma i dda. Mae'n cael ei ddweud o'r rhan o'r cyflwyno'r cyfrwsau, fod o'r cyfrwsau i ddod o'r rhan o'r cyfrwsau ac o'r cyfrwsau o'r cyfrwsau, a daeth ei ddweud, dyfodraeth, o'r gweithiol, i gynhyrchu ddweudio ddweudio, i'r llwyddiad, i'r llwyddiad, i'r llwyddiad, i'r llwyddiad, i'r llwyddiad, i'r llwyddiad. Mae'r pandemig yn rhan o'r gweithio i'r llwyddiad llwyddiad yn ysgrifennu. Ond mynd i ddim yn gweithio i llwyddiadau a'r ddweud, a dwi'n dweud ymweld o'r loch. Byddwn i ddim yn gweithio i llwyddiadau a'r ddweud yn rhan o'r loch yn rhan o'r holl ddweud. Ac mae Osandridd a'r llwyddiad yn adeilad yn rhan o'r holl ddweud yn bwysig fel ddweud yn ein llwyddiad. Felly mae'r cyfrifiad yn ôl. yn dweud King Fistdag bechyrsio hynny, ond oherwydd iawn i fynd ddweud. Ond nid oes fod y gweld o pob YEI yr bydau ffessiog. Mae fcs i'n gymu'r gweithio arweithio pa mwyaf i gyflwyno'r mewn. byddwn i'r nechyd yn gennyrch, yn ymgyrch yn ymgyrch i ddweud ymddangos i'r ffeisidol yn gypobydd, yn gystafel a chyfeiddol yn ymgyrch yn gweithio. Felly mae'n gydigion i ddiddordeb mae'r ffigurau yn ysgol, os ymgyrch yn ysgol, a chyfeiddol yn ysgol yng Nghymru, mae'n mynd i'r hyn o bwysig yn ysgol yn sicr o'r byd, ac mae'r bwysig i ddweud. Namata has already outlined the festival, but some of the events, but it is, I hope, a balanced starter course with some of the great names of Indian literature, particularly cutting-edge writers such as Jeet Tyll, author of Narcopolis, Taran Khan, the new star of Indian travel writing who won the big travel awards this year across the board. Also, major writers from the region such as Elif Shafak and Tamina Anam, as well as foreign writers who've dealt with India and Indian culture, such as Edmund Richardson, who's extraordinary Alexander, is one of the great non-fiction successes this year. Cat Jaman, whose book on the Vikings amazingly traces an object found in a Viking grave in Derbyshire back to Amadabad, as a measure of the trading links of the time, and finally, Kim Ploffker, who is one of the great scholars on Sanskrit mathematics and the extraordinary world of zero decimal place system and so on. All the things that we take for granted that in Europe we tend to call Arabic numbers, but which of course originated in India and is one of the great gifts of Indian civilization to the world. Every time that we pull out our phones or open a computer keyboard and press a digit, we are using an Indian invention. I'm going to, I think, welcome straight on board now the Afghan session speakers. We have some such as Saad and Shazia here live. Others such as Rory and Gautam are sitting in the studio, one in New Delhi, one in Yale, but both we hope are awake and present. So, Shazia and Saad, if you want to come up to the stage, we will endeavour to bring the world together. So, just a brief introduction to our speakers on this panel. Rory Stewart is a senior fellow at Jackson Institute at Yale. Stewart was a UK Secretary of State of International Development, where he doubled the UK's investment in international climate and environment. He's the author of four books, The Places in Between, Occupational Hazards or the Prince of the Marshes, Can Intervention Work and the Marches. Saad Mohseni, co-founder and chairman of Mobi Group, has brought top-tier news and media content to emerging and frontier markets over the past two decades. Mohseni launched his first network in Afghanistan in 2002 and has developed Mobi Group into one of the fastest growing diversified media companies in South and Central Asia, the Middle East and Africa. Shazia Haya Ahmadzai is an Afghan journalist who has not only just emerged from quarantine following her dramatic escape from Kabul. She is a reporter for the BBC's Pashto Service and presented a heart-talk television show, Open Jirga, from Kandahar in Taliban heartland earlier this year. Ambassador Gautam Mokhpaddhaig served in the ministries of external affairs and defence of India and as India's ambassador to Syria, Afghanistan, where he also reopened the Indian embassy in Kabul after the ouster of the Taliban in November 2001 and Myanmar, respectively, from 2005 to 2016. He's also graduated from the National Defence College of India and walked in Afghanistan as a visiting fellow at Carnegie in Washington. He's currently senior visiting fellow at the Centre for Policy Research in New Delhi. William Dalrymple can be introduced properly. I'm sure you all know more as much as I do, but he's of course the best-selling author and has won many awards, including the Wolfson Prize for History, the Hemingway, the Thomas Cook and the Duff Cooper Memorial Prize. His most recent books are the company Quartet in that very handsome set, The Anarchy, Relentless Rise of the East India Company and Forgotten Masters, Indian Painting for the East India Company. William Dalrymple is of course one of the founders and co-director of the Jaipur Literature Festival. Please now welcome all of them to this panel, which many of them have done. So what I propose to do is to start by talking to Saad and Shazia about what has happened in Afghanistan over the last month. Both were there in the immediate run-up to the Taliban takeover. Saad rushing in between trying to persuade Washington to take things more seriously, visiting the State Department and trying to turn the tide of history backwards, sadly, without much success. Shazia was sitting on the ground in Kabul and has only just made it to Britain and out of quarantine. So maybe to start with you Saad. Could you paint the picture? You were in and out of the presidential palace. You've known Karzai and Ashur Afghani very well. You've been a major player in Afghanistan. Help set up the Tolo network and Mobi. Tell us what it was like at the last days of the regime. Was there a sense that this was inevitable or were they living in another land of their own imagination? Thank you, thank you Will. Well it was an accident happening in slow motion and it was all avoidable and this is the sad reality. I'm not going to dwell on whether it was the right decision to pull out or not. I will let Rory and Gautam talk more about that. But once the decision was made, actually even before that, there was this, I think it seemed inevitable that they would disengage. The question was how quickly. And what was obvious, and I've been going to Washington since 2002, is how they had this attitude of not wanting to engage. So I think I went to Washington on three occasions, the last one in late July. But the previous two occasions, I couldn't even get people to meet with me at the State Department in the White House. I mean partly because key appointments had not been made or people had not been confirmed by Congress. But there was this feeling that they had had enough of Afghanistan and they felt that there was no need for them to fully engage. Now after the decision was made and it's a monumental decision to pull out after 20 years, you have to worry about the transition from US to Afghan forces. You have to think through how to evacuate translators and other people associated with not just the US but international forces. But this lack of engagement was extraordinary. And I recall this discussion I had with a friend in Washington who said they should be having bi-weekly meetings at the Deputy Principles level at the White House to manage this huge endeavor. And I recall George Packer writing about the translators in Vietnam and this was probably in late April or early May, saying that what an important thing it was for the Americans to what they did post Vietnam, they accepted 300,000-odd Vietnamese. And his worry was the White House and he told me a story that in the 1970s when they were attempting to get the Vietnamese out of Vietnam, there was one particular individual who stood against very firmly letting these people into the US and that was a young Senator Joe Biden. Now he eventually relented but the fact that a lot of people say well Joe Biden has no empathy. I mean he certainly doesn't have much empathy when it comes to the Afghans but it's not an age thing. He's always been like this it seems. And George's concern and I think he wrote for the Atlantic in early May, it may have been late April was that he would not care enough and do enough to get these people out. On the transition I mean it's again I don't want to dwell too much on it but it's like giving the keys to the car and the car without any wheels. By deciding to leave and then telling all the contractors you must leave as well because we can't afford to have you killed or get kidnapped, they built a military in the mould of the US military. So reliant on contractors in terms of servicing and maintenance of equipment, logistics, even the planning of the military was handled by the US and of course they continued to receive APAR, they took those four things away from them. Are these weapon systems that basically cannot be operated without contractors? No, but when the contractors moved out they even took out missiles because as per their contracts with the US military, they had to even remove some of those missiles and software systems as well. So the Afghans and of course every single day by Blinken or Biden or someone within us we're leaving the translators are coming out. It's a bit like telling your partner I think I'm going to leave you in the next 12 months and then getting surprised that she leaves you in the next week. So no one's going to fight for this government if they know they're going to get abandoned. So this was on the trend. And this thing we read in the papers that when they abandoned background they left the vehicles on the ground but took the keys. Destroyed them or left them there and I mean why would you take out your military before you take out the civilians? And they were out by June by the way. They were out by June. I mean when you have these discussions today, the military thing, the intelligence guys were doing their own thing. The State Department has completely disconnected what was going on. You know the majority of the translators apparently are still in the country. You know the banana merchant managed to get out, some truck driver from Peshawar managed to get out because they were not checking documentation. So that's why the Americans right now basically they have hostages inside the country and this is the way they're negotiating with the Taliban. It's going to be very difficult for them. But I just want to quickly talk about the Afghan side. I met with folks in the White House and the State Department. I flew into Kabul. I met with Ghani twice. And when I left Kabul I said there's no hope because we're dealing with two inept disconnected presidents. One in Washington, one in Kabul. Completely disillusioned, disillusioned. I mean the delusional beyond belief. And I told you the story that I met Ashraf on the 24th just before his call with Biden. And he had a stool in front of him. And you know being with Ashraf is you and Rory know, well I'm not sure about Gautam, that you either get lectured or get screamed at. At least you and I have not done that. At least you and I have not been called a donkey. A lovely Rory. You appeared on Afghan television with Ashraf calling you a donkey and then appearing with him live, is that right? It was absolutely wonderful. If you can now hear me, Willie, it was a wonderful moment. He did an entire TED talk as part of his presidential campaign in which he called me a son of a donkey. But he was quite rude enough. But shortly there afterwards he then came to see me in London. I was the Minister for International Development and I had to give him a £400 million check for Afghan development. So it was wonderful fun with the Afghan media cutting him calling me a son of a donkey. And then politely sitting with me to take development aid. I remember that trip. But anyway, so I went to see him and I explained to him that you need to bring some changes. And he had the stool in front of him and I wasn't sure what it was for. But he then proceeded to say, do you mind if I stretch my legs? If he's the President, what are you going to tell him? And he put his feet up just, you know, facing me. In both India and in Afghanistan. All of Asia, it's not the done thing. I mean, I don't care about those sorts of things. But I felt this man has no idea. And then the next day when I met him, he still had the stool next to him. Anyway, so I think so as his presidency. Give him a picture of this man. He's, Karzai had, for all his flaws, had enormous charm, would welcome people in and operated a big tent. But Ashraf, you've always felt alienated people and was rude to them. He was only good at one thing, alienating people, right? And he's a lonely man today. I suspect his wife is with him, but I think everyone else has abandoned him, including his closest age. They're probably all over the world, but not in Abu Dhabi where he is. And the reason why the military, I think, fragmented was also because he completely politicized the African National Security Defence Forces. But also regional power brokers, warlords, militia leaders, religious leaders. So when a battalion in the North East is there, they rely on local support. And if they don't have that local support, they're not going to fight. Before we come to Gautam and Rory Shaziem, maybe you'd just like to tell your story of the last week, your last weeks or days in Afghanistan and how you left and how it was to come here. Well, thank you. Hello everyone. It's a great honor to be here. Actually, my story is so long. I don't know from where I should start. But first of all, I want to thank the British government for saving my life. Actually, thankfulness can never be enough as the British government prevented me from dying in Afghanistan. Well, my name is Shazia Haya. I am the daughter of my mother, Zabel Nasa. Actually, they are in Afghanistan. Nobody mentioned his or her mother's sister's or wife's name publicly. It's considered tabu. And I think that's the reason behind the lack of identities of women there in Afghanistan. But for myself, my identity in my mother's name and I am proud of it. In my six years' career in journalism, I reflected the voices of others. But today I want to speak for myself. I want to speak what I was going through just as a normal Afghan girl, not as a journalist, please, just as a normal Afghan girl. I want to speak about the tough life which I had in Afghanistan. With the fall of Kabul, the aspirations of Afghan people were destroyed. The day of collapse of Afghan government reached in Kabul, and the life of Afghan people was halted. Just as a sudden storm comes and destroys everything, our life was also being destroyed. And we could do nothing about that. That much we were hopeless. And it really hurts. It really hurts. Please pray for Afghanistan. Please pray for the people that now they are in Afghanistan. I have fought for my rights against my conservative family, male dominated society for years and years. Somehow I survived. I tried to make life there, but just in one day when I saw insurgents on the road in front of the building where I left. So I was thinking with myself that, OK, Afghan women have fought for their rights in past 20 years against families, against society. But what about now? Now how Afghan women can fight when insurgents, when they are standing on the streets with guns. So on that moment my old dreams vanished. It really hurts when you make a life for yourself. And just in one day everything was taken from you. And you could do nothing about that. It really hurts. Let me tell you that Afghan women in past 20 years have really, really, really hard fought for their life, for their freedom, for their even more basic rights there in Afghanistan. Let me tell you how. The male members of my family were not in support of us pursuing education. But just by the support of my mother I went to school. I was able to get 12 years of school education. And then again those male members of my family wanted me to get married. But I struggled for my education. I got my bachelor's degree by my own money in Kabul. But for the first time when I entered the world of media my father, my brothers, my uncles, even some of them now live abroad and have a modern life were against my job as a journalist. Even now they're against my job. My father used to tell me that if somebody asks you who is your father, please do not mention my name because I don't want somebody to know. So this is the story of every Afghan woman in Afghanistan. Did that change because you were a senior presenter on Afghan television? Did your father become proud of you? I had a hard talk show there in Afghanistan. It was live in social media. Every day when I came to my home I had a hope that my father will come and will say something good about my show. And he came and every day, oh, again your life on social media. Oh, again people saw you. Oh, again your relative will talk about you. So this was the story. We struggled, we fought, somehow we survived. But just in one day everything was taken from us. Why? Why we should suffer that much? Shazia, talk about the process of actually getting out. You saw the insurgents on the road. How did you manage to get to the airport? We also saw those pictures on the media of the Taliban stopping people getting into the airport and so on. Maybe tell your story. It was just like a movie. On 21st of August 10 p.m. I received a call from FCDO and they told me that I should go to the airport. So I wore burqa because I was working on TV and I should hide my face. So I wore burqa. My father was not with me on that night. I called my father that I need a taxi or I need your support because I want to go to the airport. My father said that I could help it because maybe my life is also in danger. So by my own self I took a taxi, wore burqa, went to the airport. But on the way I tried to enter first to the airport but there was insurgents. So I requested one insurgent to let me in but he shouted, he cursed me and said that I go home. Actually I said lie to him that inside the airport my husband there and he's waiting for me. I didn't say that I'm journalist please let me in. Inside there my husband there please let me in. He cursed me that oh in one day you find husband stupid girl go home. So I took sideways, side roads and I contact my some colleagues. They were already near to the barren camp and with the help of one driver I never forget him. I just told him that I will pee you, just help me in finding way because I was there at 1am. So I said that I don't know the way, just help me and find the way that I entered the barren camp. He helped me and thank you so much. I don't know where he is. There was a side road in front of the barren camp. Barren camp was the hotel that was run by the British military to do their evacuations from near the airport. So I reached there, there were my some colleagues and then somehow we crowded, somehow we made it and we entered the barren camp and then we showed our ID and the British troops helped us. So that was it. Thank you. And then you got on to a plane and what was it like arriving here? Who'd never been to Britain before? No, no, no. It's actually my first time here. Actually now I have two birthdays. One when my mother gave birth to me and the second one on the 24th of August when I came to London. So I have two birthdays. Thank you. Gautam, you had the great responsibility of opening the Indian Embassy in Kabul after the fall of the Taliban. What does it feel like now personally for you before we talk about the wider geopolitical picture to see what's happening now? Right. So, well, thank you, William, and good afternoon and, you know, greetings to all my fellow panamids. Lovely to see them again. I'm great. I'm very envious of all of you who are actually sitting in the British Library. But let me go back to November 2001. November 2001 when we landed, we landed in Bagram. It was like a phantom airport. We had given our call signs. We had given notice to the US military as well as to the Afghan authorities at that time, which was the Northern Alliance. But there was no acknowledgement of the flight and aircraft circled the airport. And then the commander of the flight basically gave the orders to land. For about half an hour, there was no one to be seen. This was still, this was Ramzan that year, 2001. And the atmosphere was generally subdued. But I would say generally also extremely relieved and happy. There was not the kind of bursts of gunfire that attacks at the airport that we saw in the transition from the Ghani Government to the Taliban. So that was the most notable thing. The first gunfire that we heard was when actually it took place on December 2001, celebratory gunfire. So whereas the Islamic Republic was welcomed in due course, of course, four years down the line, three years down the line, with relief and with celebration, the new Taliban, what I call actually Taliban 3.0, and I'll explain that why, has been greeted with terrorist attacks at the airport that killed close to 200 Afghans as well as a large number of US military forces. And that attack has been attributed to the IS, which means that there is a likely rift. I mean, there is a rift between the Taliban and the IS. What does it tell us about the future? So I think that is what is the main difference that I see. In 2001, the Taliban melted away, but there was no violence. Even Taliban 1.0 was not yet a terrorist force. It was an ultra-conservative religious militia led by Afias Mulla. But 2021 is entirely different. What we have seen is the Taliban being more or less hijacked by the Haqqani network, which was a separate network that predated the Taliban and assuming control over that. A Haqqani network that has known ties to Al Qaeda, that possibly at least there are reports of links with the ISK, elements of the ISK, there are reports of other links between the IS and the LET and other elements of Pakistani intelligence. So what we are looking at is something that is a very complex phenomenon. We have, of course, what we have seen, an entire generation seeking freedom, seeking liberty that just Shadia just spoke about. We have a resistance building up, a resistance that could take any number of ethnic portlines. We have friction within the Taliban between different factions. We have possibly fictions coming up in future between the Taliban, elements of the Taliban and the ISI. And we also have this larger clash that is going on between the Taliban involving also many other groups. There are close to 20 to 30 other groups, extremist radicals and some terrorist groups involved in Afghanistan. Could you just say, I'm intrigued because what you just said I haven't heard that there are already signs of tension between the Taliban and the ISI? Well, there have been some reports, by the way, I think the sense of grievance, the sense of chafing against the ISI has always been there, but they have never been able to express it in any action. You know, if I give you the example, Mullah Baradar was caught in a sting operation and in jail in Pakistan for eight years when he was virtually broken down physically and psychologically, only to be revived for the US Taliban talks. But we have never heard a whimper or a speak from the Taliban about the mistreatment of Mullah Baradar. There were other commanders, serious commanders who were killed in the Pakistani custody. Mulla Umar was dead for two years before his death was publicly revealed. We have never seen any complaints by the Taliban. Mulla Haibutullah has been unknown. The world has been dealing with Taliban spokespersons and at the most deputy leader, Mulla Baradar. Where in the world have we had a kind of headless government to be, which finally surfaced only when Kabul was taken over, and even then we have not yet seen Mulla Haibutullah Khunzada? Who is controlling the strings? Do you think it's, in a sense, an optimistic sign that we've got such a completely unrepresentative government which is entirely Pashtun, where the Pashtuns only make up 40%, which is all male, which is rural guys from the Boonies, generally pretty ill-educated, and obviously no women and very, very few minorities? Do you think that basically means it's a highly unstable government which will collapse or is that too optimistic? The values of what we generally regard as a kind of free world, even as there are other kinds of considerations being made, which are likely in the Anglosphere. But quite apart from that, the fact is that there is going to be a resistance. The resistance may take some time. There will be a resistance against the repression that people are facing. 20 years of Afghanistan has changed. The democracy has changed. A new generation has come into being. This is not 1996, 2001. When Afghanistan was completely isolated, it's much better connected now. But what complicates the story are two things. One is the fact that there are so many radical groups. You talk about the IS, but we shouldn't leave out the Islamic movement of Uzbekistan, the Chechems, the Dagestanians, the Etim, the LET, the Jeship. The Lashkaray, Janvi, the Antishia groups, the sectarian groups, the anti-minority groups, the Jundullah. We have this entire constellation which have all been fighting in the trenches with the Taliban for this moment, for the occupation of Afghanistan. They are an alien force, an alien ideology. They have an Afghan face, but their brains are brainwashed by Pakistan and there are Pakistani hands behind them. So now it's complicated by this sort of popuri, let's call it a kind of conglomerate of extreme forces, which will fight for the jihad. But we'll also silently fight for the jihad inside the country, which is to remove all vestiges of what they call for an occupation. But also who will fight amongst themselves. So the resistance will have to face, it's not just going to be resistance against the Taliban. It's a much more complicated picture that we will see. Gautam, I'm going to come back to ask about specifically Indian perspective on what's happened in a second. But first to Rory. Rory, from the point of view of this country, Shazie has been very generous and thanked the British government for saving her. But do you feel this is one of the more shameful moments in our history, the way we've abandoned our allies? I think it's very, very sad. I think Britain has behaved badly. I think the United States has behaved very badly. It's partly in the revelation of British weakness and it turns out that actually Britain was really along for the ride and had a very limited capacity to operate independently. It didn't seem to be able to imagine even keeping quite a light footprint on the ground with German and French allies. You would have thought sustaining 2500 soldiers should have been something easily within the gift of the non US bits of NATO with a little bit of US support. You didn't need American boots on the ground. So in a sense the whole of NATO needs to share in its humiliation and horror and not put it all on the United States. Although it was of course Biden who pulled the rug out. Do you feel that with a different leadership in Downing Street that it would have been possible for some sort of British force to stay in alliance with other NATO allies? Yes, if the government had been serious about Afghanistan. Not body surfing on holiday. I think it's a bigger deeper problem in British foreign policy. I think it is true that I don't see the Boris Johnson government as particularly serious government or particularly interest in foreign policy. But there's a deeper problem which is that Britain is out of the habit of thinking about acting on its own and already taking responsibility for these events. Had they wanted to, two years ago, really taken seriously the possibility that Trump and Biden meant to do this. Of course they could have worked with France, Germany, Turkey and others to bring together a force to replace the United States and they perhaps could have asked Biden to leave certain enablers in place while he removed his troops. They didn't do that and I think that shows the weakness the alliance. But if I'm able to just just one sort of bigger point because obviously there are many people on the stage and we don't have much time but it seems that one of the central problems that we're now facing is around narratives about Afghanistan. So it was Gartham has said, this is essentially a defeat for a particular democratic project. What we're now seeing is many, many journalists, particularly in the United States and I'm going to pile and increasing articles in Washington Post and elsewhere suggesting that the real Afghanistan is represented by the Taliban dominated areas of the south. So they write about places like Sangine District in Helmand and they try to suggest that the Taliban victory has brought great benefits to those areas by bringing peace and ending a war. And essentially suggested that nothing was achieved in 20 years that if you go to these rural areas, nothing had changed. I think this has to be challenged because the reality is many things changed in rural Afghanistan. Sangine is one of the most extreme difficult parts of the country and it should not be used as a representation. Herat, many of the areas around Gaza, certainly Hazarajat, Bamiyan, Shimali Plain, Panshevali, huge progress in those rural areas. Life was a measurably better than it was under the Taliban and we cannot allow it to remain unchallenged. There's narratives that somehow the only benefits of 20 years were felt in Kabul and that everything outside was some vision of hell. Before we go on to that very interesting question, I will come back to this. How long have we got incidentally been? 10 more minutes. So just a very brief answer. How tarnished is that whole project now of trying to promote democracy? Is it dead in the water this idea that we can come to a country that's had some tyrannical or insurgent force and encourage them to go to the ballot box and have a liberal democracy? Is that idea, which was so much put about after 9-11, is that dead in the water? I think so, but even worse, even the idea that we can do a humanitarian intervention of the sort that we did in Rwanda, a work should have done in Rwanda and did in Bosnia is now basically dead in the water. So this is actually quite dangerous because there will be many places in sub-Saharan Africa and in Sahel where there is an argument for the international community getting involved and there are useful things the international community can do if it approaches them sensibly and with a light footprint. The problem is that what we've revealed in our politics is we seem to either go in too hard, try to do too much, or we give up and do nothing at all. We've lost any sense of moderation. A very brief answer and I'll take this then to Gautam again. How far should you think history will look back on this as the end of America's Imperium? That this great period when American bases were all over the world expanding after 9-11 has now changed to a period of Chinese hegemony, that Afghanistan is now going to become, for all that we've got, this muller government or Pashtun muller government in Kabul. But the real development there is going to be done by China, it's going to be built on road, we're going to see the Chinese extract mineral resources, and this whole era of American domination is over. Would you agree with that or not? Yes, you know, actually when we talk to our American colleagues now, they tend to go out of the way to say America is not going anywhere, it's still there and they arc back to Saigon and say well you know, since Saigon America has been there and America will continue to be there. But you know when I look back and I was in the division that dealt with the Soviet Union when it cracked up, the departure of the Soviet troops led to the collapse of the Soviet Union and the entire Soviet bloc. I won't say that the departure of US troops will lead to a similar state, but definitely it will be a very wounded United States. It's already facing internal challenges, even challenges to its own democracy and that was another reason why in fact it should have supported democracy elsewhere. I see in the house, sorry, let me, may I complete this? Please do. And what we are seeing in its place, you know, that we had a certain alignment which was democratic Afghanistan, the United States West, the democratic world including India during this entire 20-year reconstruction period. Now that is replaced by a Taliban supported by Pakistan, reinforced by China and then the other powers that are aligned around this Russia and Iran can hardly be called, you know, let's say, flag carriers of freedom, democracy and liberty. So we see that and we see in the house close actually a kind of fallback onto an atmosphere. So there's a complete shrinking of democratic space and the authoritarian dictatorial. You have Myanmar on the other side of the subcontinent. You basically see a kind of progress of the authoritarian or even the populist democracy. You know the democracies that are tending to work. Thank you, Gautam. Rory, is this, is this you were born in Hong Kong? Is this now the period of Chinese hegemony that we've been seeing rising? Is this their moment now? I think it will feel very different. I didn't think we can anticipate China being drawn into nation building. I mean, China isn't interested in doing that, but I very much agree with Gautam's basic idea that something very strange has happened. That authoritarianism and new forms of populism are now dominant. And it's extraordinary. I mean that movement. I mean, if you think about movement from 1989 to about 2004, where the numbers of democracies in the world exploded and then stalled and has now begun to go dramatically backwards. And that that's not something that any of us really anticipated 15 years ago. And that's partly, of course, about the rise of China. I mean, in 2004, the British economy was still bigger than the Chinese economy. The Chinese economy is now seven times larger than the British economy. And that's happened in 60 years. That's an extraordinary figure. Saad, do you see your television stations staying open? What's the future for you and Moby? Are you optimistic or not? Well, I'm not optimistic and I'm also not pessimistic. As Gautam said, too many things can happen in the weeks ahead. There are too many unknowns. We continue and we'll continue whether it's from inside of Afghanistan, from outside of Afghanistan. The country, as Rory put it so well, has changed. You can't put the genie back in the bottle. Afghanistan is a transformed country. That's why it's a bit disappointing to see the world disengage. Because what was a stalemate to you was precious to us. People like Shazia was working. There are lots of other women going to university. This youngest country outside of Sub-Saharan Africa, a median age of 18, 65% under the age of 22 or 23. It's a different country. We just needed more time. Is it too late? I don't think so. But I think the world needs to continue to at least care. Shazia, what future do you see for your friends and family left in Afghanistan? Well, it's complicated. You can observe the current situation in Afghanistan. Today goes our band. They are not allowed to go to schools. You can imagine what will be their future in Afghanistan. There's just one question that Afghan women want to ask from the world that, do they deserve such a life in Afghanistan? Do they? So, that's it. Thank you. Mookalika. Namaz, who himself has come out of Kabul in the last few days. Thank you very much. Can we have a microphone for Namaz? Thank you very much. I'm Namaz Zafri. I'm a shipping scholar who made it this year with all the difficulties. I also came on the same day that Shazia came on the 24th of August with all crossing the barren gate and all the things. We're lucky because after two days or a day after that a blast happened. So you could imagine how we feel and how we made it. I would like to thank Ruth Stewart for making it happen and listening to our voice and making this year happen for shipping scholars. So I would like to owe him a big thanks. So my question is from Saad. What is that that we are not learning? It's been 40 years in our country there is war. We have not learned what was our mistake. At least we need to learn what is our mistake. And our elders should tell us what is that that we are doing continuously wrong so that we should not do it again and we convey that one message to our children so that they should not do that. You see in 20 years our leaders enjoyed the glory of state. The armored vehicles, the castles, everything, the VIP life. But you have seen the president was also the first one who fled the country. Though two months back he said I will not abandon the army, I will not abandon the country, I will not abandon the nation but he was the first one who abandoned. And Shazia you rightly said about the women education. It's not about women, it's about 50% of your population who are women. So it's mean 50% will no more development. As a father if you ask me, I mean it's a tactical thing they're pitching in that preliminary schooling will be there, it means until class 6 and no more schooling will be there. That means automatically saying no to education because if my girl studies until 6 she would love to continue the education and doing bachelor and master. So that means how will I tell her when she will be 11 or 12 that you should not go school anymore. It's way too difficult. So tactically they're bringing, you know, finishing the value of Afghans. 50% of your women, your population cannot join. They just change the ministry name, Ministry of Women Affairs. You could see your representation is no more there. So that is the scenario. The Ministry of Vice and Virtue now. Yeah, you see. And then the discussion was on democracy. I mean, your best partner who were used after 20 years, they're saying that we're not there for nation state building. So one of the pillar of the democracy is nation state building option. They say we're there for in the military intervention. Let's get some answers. What does Afghanistan doing wrong? Well, I think we don't have enough time to discuss all the things that went wrong. But obviously corruption and the ineptitude of the state in the hub. I think the heavy handedness of the US military didn't help. The drone strikes. The drone strikes, the air strikes. And I think that there was a real disconnect between the state and the people. I think you pointed out that President Kaza was a lot more connected, but Ashraf went in particular, had no idea. He never, I once asked him, I said, do you watch the news? He goes, I don't have enough time to watch the news. He said, but I get the transcripts. I said, but you don't get the emotions of a mother screaming because her son has been killed. And President Kaza, the interesting thing was that he would ask, this is before YouTube, he'd ask for DVDs of programs of the news stories as people would call us up and would deliver to the palace. But we all made mistakes, including us. And I think we have to acknowledge all these things. And we're going to have plenty of time for post mortems to see as to what we did wrong. And sadly, this government is already doing things wrong, this new government. Lady at the back, where are you? My name is Aisha Khan, and I was in Kabul shortly after the fall of the Taliban at the time when they were establishing the interim government. And I recall, and I'm not sure if this was hearsay or if it was fact, but I do recall that Zahir Shah had come to Afghanistan during that time. And I wonder from my Afghan friends and colleagues what they think if the West had engaged to Zahir Shah at that time. This is the king, yes? The king, yes. So, do you want to answer that? What would have happened if we brought back the royalty? Well, I mean, I know his grandsons, we know the family very well. They're not the most competent people either. So, a royal system, and I'm not an anti-monarchist or anything, but I don't think it would have worked in Afghanistan. He was a wonderful human being, he was in his 90s, he was a true patriot. He was a good, I mean symbolic figure, and that's what he remained till his death. I don't think that would have been the solution either. Moin, last question for you. We got just two minutes. The truth is that the Taliban is there, you know, for some time now. Do they have any sense of vision? What are they going to do next? Do they have a strategy in place? They are reaching out economically to China, I think even to people in Geneva. But is there, in your minds, what would be the next steps that the Taliban would take to at least keep this country united or in some form take the first steps to progress? What do you think are the next steps? Just on the economic stuff. We've got the political crisis and the humanitarian crisis. We have a major drought, 600,000 to 700,000 displaced individuals inside the country. The world gave Afghanistan $8.5 billion to $9 billion last year. That works out to be about $25 million or $30 million a day. The Taliban have no idea what this economic crisis is going to look like. They get excited because the Chinese have given them $15 million in kind, not in cash, in kind. That's going to last us half a day. So even, you know, I explained to one of these pro-Taliban sympathizers, the $6.5 billion TAPI project, the gas pipeline project between Turkmenosan and India, once it's completed, $6.5 billion is going to generate $200 to $300 million a year for the Afghan state. It's nothing. I don't think they quite realize what they're facing. They're not sophisticated. They're not worldly. They're arrogant. They have just prevailed. They've beaten the world power, superpower, the superpower. And no one's going to fill that vacuum. And the tragedy is that they're not going to pay the price. It's the Afghan people going to pay the price. Gautam, just a 30-second answer just to finish. We are an Indian festival. What is the hopes of Indian relations with Afghanistan now? I mean, do you have relations with the Taliban? Or is it now a question of starting again from scratch? Pretty much starting from scratch. Actually, so far the contacts have been purely limited to security issues. I see the world actually resigned to the fate of Afghanistan. And, you know, the world is by and large talking about engagement. I feel that whatever engagement should be there should be minimal. And basically focused on the people-to-people contact humanitarian efforts for the people of Afghanistan. I wouldn't interrupt trade because I think that also is an important component. But relations with the government at an absolute minimum. And most of it negotiated and done through the United Nations. Thank you very much. There is one more question. I received a question online from Grace Lee. Thank you for this session. What can British citizens do to help those in Afghanistan? What can British citizens do to help those in Afghanistan? Shazia? Just raise your voice for Afghan people, please. You can do everything for Afghan people in Afghanistan. They really need your support, please. I really mean it. Those who say to break relations and to punish the Taliban by cutting off aid, is that a mistake? Well, I don't know, but I can't say, but just now, what they need, Afghan people, they really need support from the world. They really, they are humans. They want a normal life just you guys have. They need to survive in Afghanistan. Rory, Rory, was that you? Can I very quickly on this? I think it's central not to be naive about the Taliban, not to embrace the Taliban, but at the same time understand that we need to get development and humanitarian assistance into ordinary Afghan people. It would be madness and very cruel to punish ordinary Afghans in the mistaken belief that was somehow going to change the behaviour of the Taliban themselves. It is perfectly possible to find a way of providing support to the Afghan economy without being naive about the Taliban and we should do that. Thank you very much. I think this is exactly why we have JLF. This extraordinary panel today was one of the very best sessions we've ever had. Gautam, thank you. Thank you Rory, Saad and particularly Shazia. Welcome to London. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you all very much. Thank you for a fantastic discussion. What a privilege to hear such a variety of perspectives and voices, but ultimately I think the message is the same. Support the Afghan people without condoning or legitimising the Taliban. I think that's the message. But now it remains for me on behalf of Teamwork Arts, JLF, to thank you all and to thank our fantastic panelists for an amazing panel. Thank you. Thank you very much.