 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. I am Poranjoy Goharthakurtha and with me here in the studio, I have a person who seems mature, astute about the political economy of India. He used to be a supporter of Prime Minister Narendra Modi but recently he decided to resign from the Bharatiya Janta Party. And I am going to ask him why and let me here introduce you, the viewers of this program, to a 25 year old person, young man Shivam Shankar Singh. Thank you very much Shivam for giving us this interview. Now, when you decided to resign from the Bharatiya Janta Party, you wrote a long note, it runs into I think almost about 1500 words. You wrote it for Medium which is an open website and then it got reprinted by the Print and then by the Wire and Quint and before you knew it everybody was saying, who is this young man who used to be a Modi Bhakt of sorts who suddenly decided to resign from the Bharatiya Janta Party. So tell us a little bit about when you became a member of the BJP and why you resigned. So I joined the Bharatiya Janta Party in 2013 itself. This was at the height of the Modi wave. The atmosphere at that point of time was an atmosphere where everyone was really disturbed and depressed. Shivam, I am going to interrupt you a little bit. At that time you were in America, at the University of Michigan and in Harvard, you were studying Art Shastri. So there you became a member of the Bharatiya Janta Party. And you are saying that from there you came to know that the political atmosphere of the Bharatiya Janta Party. Sir, we used to come to Bharatiya Shastri all the time, it was not just in America. The second thing is that now the media has become so much, social media has become so much, Twitter, Facebook is all. It continues to talk to friends continuously. At that time the atmosphere was that all around there is a corruption atmosphere, there are corruption allegations. It seems that the government is not able to do anything. There was a phase of policy paralysis. 2G, CWG, GJAG, Falana, Dimkana, one after the other, Gotala. So at that time it was decided that we needed a change in this country. So that's why you became a member of the Bharatiya Janta Party for 100 rupees and 5 rupees. So at that time we joined the Bharatiya Janta Party because Narendra Modi ji came to the front at that time. Narendra Modi ji provided a very credible alternative to the incumbent government. At that time it was in everyone's mind that they will do something very good for the country. They will do something very big. There was a lot of talk about the Gujarat model. We just don't know as much as we heard through the media, through journalists like you. That Gujarat has done a very good job. There has been a lot of development. There are very good roads. There are a lot of industries. Per capita income is very good. That kind of change has also come in the country. Something good for the country and for the people. In that hope, we have started supporting the Bharatiya Janta Party. And not only that, you were not just a supporter of Narendra Modi ji. You thereafter became, correct me if I'm wrong, in 2015, a legislative assistant to a member of parliament. A lamp. Yes. I mean that's a fellowship. Yes. Who were you assisting? Which MP were you assisting? Mr. P.D. Rai. He's the MP from Sikkim. I see. That's right. Right. Okay. And thereafter, you worked with the Indian Political Action Committee, which is a private firm with which Prashant Kishore ji is associated. Am I correct for roughly about a month between May and June 2016? Approximately one and a half months. During the Punjab elections. During the Punjab elections, yes. When did you decide to join, in a sense, become a part of the BJP in July 2016 for about eight months or so? You were campaigning for the Bharat Janata Party in Manipur. You were stationed in Imphal. And thereafter, you became very close to Ram Mahadev ji, who's a national general secretary of the BJP. What happened? I mean, can you just outline what happened? So, sir, after I was a legislative assistant to member of parliament, I got really interested in the political space. I knew that this is an area where I want to work. It was very interesting at that time. Prashant Kishore was the biggest name in this area. So, I joined IPAC. I got to learn a lot from it. But, it was a private company. My interest was political. It was never an interest of political consultancy type. It wasn't that I wanted good salary or to earn money through it. The interest was always to do something for the country, to be actively involved in politics, to do some good work, to do some development work. I understood within a month, that a private company cannot be considered as a consultant. So, when did you decide to join the India Foundation, which is like, you became a senior research fellow there. And this is a think tank. And we know, this is very closely aligned with the Bharatanjanta Party. In fact, there are four ministers who are, what, directors or advisors of this foundation? Mrs. Nirmala Sita Raman, Mr. M. J. Akbar, Mr. Suresh Prabhu, Jain Sinha. All of them are holding important positions in the government. In addition, you also have Sharia Doval, who is the son of the National Security Advisor. They are all closely, I would say, associated with this think tank. Yes, correct. So, I became a senior research fellow at India Foundation after the money per campaign. So, in the middle of the period, there was not a lot of campaign activity. I write a lot, I research a lot. Data-based is also written a lot. So, in the senior research fellow at India Foundation, there was a chance to do research on the policy of the country, to research on where the change can take place, how it can be done. India Foundation also is a very good platform which connects a lot of people from different thought streams. One minute. Did you also work with Ram Madhav Ji? He is the National Secretary of the BJP. He is not only in charge of the Northeast, Jammu and Kashmir, Andhra Pradesh, etc. He is widely perceived to be a person who is a link between the Rashtriya Swamsevaksant, headquartered in Nagpur and the Bharati Janta Party. So, did you work closely with him? So, during the money per and tripura elections, yes, because he was in charge of the elections and I was there on the ground. I definitely got a chance to work with him. Now, what made you resign from the Bharati and Janta Party? Why now is the question everybody is asking? In your note, you have written first the good, then the bad and the ugly, but the good. You praise the Modi government, road construction was faster than earlier, electrification, corruption at the high levels of government have come down according to you. Switch Bharat Mission, you say is a definite success. The Ujwala scheme of giving liquefied petroleum gas cylinders, you said it's good. But you also say that people don't have money to buy another cylinder. And then you said that the north-east where the connectivity has improved and the law and order improved. After giving a point to the north-east, now you are saying bad and ugly. So, sir, it is such that every government does something good. There is no government in the history of such a country that has only done bad things. Because the government has a budget. That budget is being spent. There will always be something positive for the country from that budget. It is not that the government has run a 100% 100% budget in corruption. There is no development. So, there is a lot of good in the Modi government. There are some things that I disagree with a lot. Now I feel that the negative is outweighing the positive. And you have made another long list. And you have started Electral Bonds. You are saying that the political funding that the political leaders of our country get money for elections and elections. Anyway, they get money. This is not in the interest of the country. Electral bonds. There is no power in this. This bonds according to you is not... It is not going to be good for the country. Correct. You say more about this. So, SISR Electoral Bonds is an anonymous instrument. Through it, any corporate house... There was a 7% limit to donate profits to political parties. That limit has been removed. Now someone can donate 100% profit to political parties anonymously. So, in today's date, if someone says that I will donate 1000 crores of electoral bonds to a party, you pass this policy. And that policy passes. And that person gives the electoral bond to the party. There is no way to prove in the court that a quid pro quo has been established. There is one more thing. You are doing all these bonds from the state bank. And the state bank... Supposed to keep this information private. So, why will it leak out? Are you worried that this information could be obtained by the Ministry of Finance? Because after all, who owns the state bank of India? Sir, that is a separate consideration. Now, the point that I think is more important is that it cannot be used in the court because there is an anonymous instrument. Even if the information is leaked out, what validity will be there in the court? You have also thought about that in Yogyna Bhawan, Yogyna Ayog has become Neethi Ayog. And you are saying that the earlier system was better. Planning commission was better. You had auditing of government schemes which Neethi Ayog is unable to do. This is, I mean, for Mr. Narendra Modi and many in the present government, the planning commission symbolizes the Nehruvian era. And we all know that... Mr. Modi doesn't have a high opinion of India's first Prime Minister, Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru. So, sir, the plan and non-plan, the five-year plan was based on funding, that difference could have been removed. That is a separate debate. But the planning commission used to do a lot other than that. When I was working in parliament for one year, legislative assistant to member of parliament, at that time we used the planning commission to use the data of every scheme. What happened in which scheme? So, you think that people are not getting this data these days? Neethi Ayog is not doing the work of this data. Neethi Ayog is not releasing it. Now, we will have to wait for this data to be audited by CAG. How many years after CAG, which scheme will be audited? What do you know? Regularly, you would get a data that what is happening in which scheme, what is going on, in which state. So, you also thought that CBI or ED, the enforcement director, is using it. What is new in this? In Congress and in the UPI, Supreme Court said that CBI is behaving like a caged parent. So, what is the difference? I mean, everybody has used, previous governments have also used the CBI and the ED for political purposes. So, what is so different in the case of this government? Sir, I supported this government because this was supposed to be a party with a difference. If there is no difference. After Adwani, Mr. Adwani said that party with a difference. Yes, yes. So, is it a party with differences now? Because you left and went away. No, because there was to be a separate party. When Mr. Rehendra Modi came, he was going to change India's political climate, India's development scenario, India's governance. If this is the only thing that is going on, then it used to be good, it used to be good. For whatever reason, the Indian people blame the party. People take you as an example, that even the Congress used to do the same. Even the previous governments did the same. If this government is doing the same, then why do we keep supporting it? One thing. And after this, you said that this government has given a suicide note to the Chief Minister of Kali Kapoor of Arunachal Pradesh, before committing suicide. Just as the murder case of the lawyer's death, the murder case of Saurabh Uddin, and the corruption against which we have reported, all of these, according to you, are suddenly becoming important. Why? These have been issues for some time now. Why? Are you suddenly finding these issues so important today? We are already taking these issues. These are things that are being built. One thing happened, two things happened, three things happened, people keep listening, it feels bad that this happened. Gradually, it gets so much worse, that people say that it's enough, that we are not going to bear it. This is the kind of thing. It never happens that you know about an incident and you have taken a decision based on it, that this rape case where there was no FIR for a year, then we leave it. It doesn't happen that anyone does it. Okay. Shivam, you are now also criticizing demonetization. Yes. Mr. Modi said that, you know, there can be fewer in the press, there can be fewer in Prabhandan, but don't ask questions on the policy. This is what the Prime Minister said in the run up to the Uttar Pradesh elections. And that's the time you saw people were saying demonetization, terrible, terrible, terrible, but the people of Uttar Pradesh actually voted for the Bharti Janta Party. So how come, how come today you are now criticizing noteworthy? Sir, I don't know about the intention. I don't know what the actual intention was. Mr. Modi will be able to tell you. It's so clear that it did not achieve what it was stated to achieve. Reducing black money, Jali note which is used by terrorists, cash less, less cash. Yes. Nothing has happened from this time. If you look at the data, cash is almost exactly where it was demonetized. So you are the people of Uttar Pradesh why did the Bharti Janta Party vote in the last election? Yes. Why did Yogi Adhitanath Ji rule Uttar Pradesh? So, sir, there were many factors. Demonetization was also a factor. It was. Till that time, people did not understand that nothing has been achieved from demonetization. At that time, a narrative was made that terror funding will be over, black money will be over, as much as black money will be captured. Nothing has happened. It is known in today's date. When Uttar Pradesh was elected. And today you are assuming that the politics of Uttar Pradesh has completely changed as well. So, both these parties have a very big vote bank. It is a caste based vote bank which supports them a lot. If both parties go together, it will be very difficult to vote for the Bharti Janta Party. It is very easy to get their seats. You raised a lot of issues in your notes. When you said about the foreign policy, it was very difficult to vote for the Bharti Janta Party. It was very difficult to vote for the Bharti Janta Party. You said about the foreign policy. You said that the Sansad, Adarsh, Gram, Yojana, Make in India, Skill Development, Fussell, Bhima, High Price of Petrol and Diesel, Education, Healthcare, there is nothing left. All the issues that the Modi government is saying that we are doing such a good job, such a good job. That the problems I can see and problem are very important to be able to compare and compare them. I wont say who to vote for, I know it is very good to come this summer. Just a little more please. You have mentioned about Pandit Jawahl Nehru, Socialist path, Russian technology, heavy engineering corporation. You think the present government has gone a Yes, sir, definitely. There is a negativity in politics that the old people have to think about it. There is no need for this. The old decisions were taken in different circumstances. From today, if after 40 years, someone criticizes Mr. Modi, the time when technology, the time when the country has money, the time when our socio-economic status is, on the basis of that, today's policy decisions cannot be compared. According to the truth of that time, people worked. Shivam, this time, you are trying to debunk this notion. You are saying anybody who speaks of the government is called anti-national. They are called anti-national. You are saying there has been polarization in Indian society of the kind we've never seen before. Sir, I don't know if it's never seen before. There have been big riots in the country before. But in today's date, when technology is so big... Okay, let me say in your lifetime. In the 25 years, you are saying political discourse is at its lowest point. And this is one of the reasons why. So, in today's date, technology has increased so much. There is WhatsApp, there is Facebook. There is so much penetration in things that every person is moving around with his own hands. People are not checking the facts. They are forwarding messages to each other, which are very polarizing in nature, which are spreading hatred. All these things seem to be trying to create a concerted atmosphere with the views of the elections, in which the Hindus feel that we don't have any solution. We will have to vote for Modi, otherwise we will be destroyed. Now, such facts come that the Muslim population... the Muslim population will exceed the Hindu population in the next 10 or 20 years. There is no data behind this, there is no truth behind it. You are saying that the Bharti Janta Party's strategy for the next election is polarization and inciting what you are calling pseudo-nationalism. And you are saying the Prime Minister himself has said it in his speeches. Jinnah, Nehru. Congress leaders didn't meet Bhagat Singh in jail. And you are saying this is fake news which has come from the Prime Minister himself. You are saying Congress leaders had indeed met leaders in Pakistan to defeat the Bharti Janta Party in Gujarat. You are talking about how Yogi Adityanath said Marana Pratap is greater than Akbar. And all students of Jawaharlal Nehru University are anti-national. They want India to be broken up, Tukrit, Tukrit, Tukrit, Tukrit, Tukrit, Tukrit, etc. You are saying that the discourse today is highly polarizing and it is being the nation, according to you, you are saying I refuse to follow anyone who is willing to let the nation burn in riots for political gain. What do you think? Will there be any more Hindu-Muslims in the next 8 months? There is a kind of divisive political discourse? Sir, there will be a polarization. There was a development agenda. It is gradually ending and it is not working. The kind of development that people expected in 2014, 2015, 2016 that hope is not visible today. If you look at it from 2016 to 2017, then this kind of criticism did not come from Modi. First of all, if someone criticizes, then 10 people would come against you saying that it is good, it is good, it is good. It is not like that in today's date. I also posted such a long post. Many people supported it. Almost everyone supported it. Were you surprised? I am surprised. You wrote this blog which was subsequently republished and suddenly nobody knew who won. Shivam Shankar Singh aged 25 is international baccalaureate from Mahindra United World College of India near Pune. Studied in the University of Michigan, etc. Suddenly everybody is saying, who are you? Why have you done this? I am very surprised at the response. Mainly because it has been extremely positive. Almost everyone who was BJP supporters are agreeing with what I wrote. There is only criticism. It is fine, it is not perfect, but there is no alternative. No one has said that what is written is wrong. Have you met Ram Madhav Ji? Is he happy with your decision to leave the BJP? After all, you worked with him. I presume he will not be very happy with it, but I haven't met him. You haven't met him. You know, I want to ask you. You are at one level, you say the political discourse is at its lowest point. Partisanship is at its peak. There is no remorse at the way in which those aligned with the ruling party are disseminating fake news. After that, you say everybody is to blame. All parties, all voters, all supporters. How can you say this? Sir, all parties, all voters, all supporters are not there. But parties, voters and supporters basically come out of the same thing. The citizens of this country. These three are not different things, they are the same people. In today's date, our citizenry has been polarized. In this environment, more than development, we are thinking about what will be of Hindu-Muslim, what will be of India-Pakistan. The media has a very big role in this. The kind of debates that come on TV, like Ravish Kumar Ji is raising, that more than half of the media is debating this, no one is taking it from development. And those who don't like him say, they should do it, Ravish Kumar. And he is receiving death threats. So this is wrong, sir. Because if a person wants to raise the issue, and he doesn't want to discuss it, and nobody wants to take it from development, why should we read this discussion? What do you think is true today? Those who are in positions of power and authority, they are really tolerant, that they believe in freedom of expression. Do they really believe in the freedom of expression? That every citizen has the right to do this. Sir, look, nobody has tried to stop this person. If I say this, then this will also be wrong. There is a fear of which people are not saying it themselves. But it is not that the government has not tried to stop anyone from saying anything as much as I have. Personally. I have not seen anyone trying to stop anyone. But people themselves are scared. How did this fear arise? There is a big role of social media, there is a big role of WhatsApp. But people feel that if they speak against the government, something will happen against them. Tell me something. You are 25 years old. The median age of India is around 25, 26. For the first time in the history of this country, about half of our population is below the age of 25 and 26. We know that in 2014 more than two out of three people who were eligible to vote for it. So the youth, the youth vote matters a lot. Definitely. What you think is going to happen between now and the next general elections, which are scheduled to take place in April, May 2019. What do you think? When you look at it in terms of the way the youth, those in the age, say 18 to 25, 26, how do you see the political atmosphere prevailing among this section? Sir, today, the youth has become disenchanted from politics again. In 2014, there was a new hope. People supported Kiran of that hope. People voted for him. They won from a heavy burden. That support is not available to anyone today. The youth is not supporting a party so openly. The youth doesn't know for whom it is beneficial to vote. But with this promise, they have become disenchanted. What do you think is going to happen between now and the next elections? What do you think is going to happen? Will there be more communal tension? Will there be India-Pakistan tension? Will the Ram Mandir be built? Sir, there are all possibilities. As far as I can see, there is a chance for Ram Mandir to start. There will be a judgment in October-November. After that, there will be a big argument that we will build a temple. The communal tension will definitely increase from there. Will this help the Bharti-Janta Party? Will this help in so-called consolidation of the Hindu vote? Sir, it will definitely help. To what extent? Will the Bharti-Janta Party be able to build the next time? No one can say that. What will you do? Who will you suggest who people vote for? Let's assume all that you are saying is going to happen in the next few months. What is going to be your position? Sir, my position is that we don't vote for the Prime Minister. We vote for our MP in the MP election. In today's date, as many MPs are in fear and as many MPs are scared, assume that you have issues with electricity, water issues, your school equipment is useless, your constituency hospitals are useless. Do you think the Bharti-Janta Party MP will speak in Parliament? Do you think he will take all these issues to Mr. Modi? Is he so scared of Modi and Amit Shah that he is saying that everything is going well in the country? See, you were born at that time. I became a journalist during the emergency. Today, many of us think that we are having a new kind of emergency. People are scared to speak their mind. As a student of economics and politics and history, can you compare the situation that was prevailing in the middle of the 1970s when Indira Gandhi was Prime Minister and today? Sir, see, the emergency is self-imposed. It is in the hearts and minds of the people. It is not like someone is holding him and putting him in the jail. Nothing is happening in the country. Everyone is completely independent. But for their personal motivation, our MP wants to keep his seat. He wants a ticket from a party. So, he is not speaking openly. He is not criticizing openly. He is not taking the issue of his constituency. So, what should the voter do? I think that such people should choose the voter who should speak in their favor. They should not be afraid of anyone. They should be ready to speak against their party. And if such people are not getting the constituency to fight, then the country's youth will stand up and fight for themselves. What is your personal political ideology? What is your personal views? What is your personal ideology? What will you call yourself? Will you call yourself a South Indian? Or will you call yourself a South Indian? Sir, I mean, personal ideology is the development of India. There is a lot of left and right debate. It makes no sense in India. It can be said culturally that there is a right and a left. Economically, there is not much difference. Everyone has been a bit socialist. All parties have worked in the same direction from freedom to today. My last question. What do you plan to do now? Sir, I actually want to work in the policy space. I want to go to Bihar. Bihar is my home state. So I want to go to Bihar. I want to do some development work on the grassroots, some policy work. Political debate, political ideology. It is my idea to shape that the voter should understand how people should choose. The party is not that important. Is this your message for the youth of this country? Yes, definitely. Bring good people to politics. What party people are they? It does not matter. Thank you very much, Shivam. Thank you. For speaking with me. Yes, sir. I had enjoyed myself, I should say, speaking with you. And I hope you found this interview interesting and meaningful. You just heard and watched 25-year-old Shivam Shankar Singh telling you why he's left the Bharti Janta Party and why he's disillusioned with the present ruling dispensation. Thank you for being with us.