 Hey, folks, welcome to the podcast. So we're doing a special series of podcasts which I'm recording over Google Hangouts. So we're doing audio and video because for some unknown reason, people don't want to come see me face to face right now. But there's always opportunity and the cool thing is I'm able to now podcast with people from all over the world. So we're going to get an amazing eclectic mix of people from different industries, different perspectives to share their story and tell us, you know, their thoughts and feelings on what's going on right now and all of that cool stuff. Hope you enjoy it. Please subscribe in all the usual places and enjoy. Awesome. I'm alive. I'm alive. Thank you for joining me. Brothers, thank you. Pleasure. So, Kim Maya, branding expert. We had a great chat on the phone. Must have been a few weeks ago now though. The time's been flying since the lockdown stuff. How have you been finding it all? Well, it's been strange, hasn't it? I mean, I think we're all sort of reeling from it in lots of ways. And also, of course, we don't like the unknown and this conjures up a lot of unknowns. You've got to be comfortable being uncomfortable. You know, there's so much stuff that's gone on now. And I speak to people and, you know, some are, there's a lot of people that have got quite anxious. And, you know, a lot of people are fearful of kind of coming into cities or going out of the house or change. You know, all of this change is happening. And, yeah, you're right. People are unsettled by it. But I think I think you just got to try and learn. It's easier said than done just to be comfortable with it now. I think that's right. It's really interesting too, because there's so many people are saying, you know, can't wait to go back to normal. You just think like, who wants to go back? Yeah, I mean, we're never going back now. You know, it's changed forever. I mean, the world jobs, hiring, working patterns. I did actually do the poll on LinkedIn last week just to see. And I asked, you know, who wants to go work in the office full time? Who wants to go and stay at home full time? And who wants a combination? And I mean, I think it was 80 odd percent wanted. It may be even more, maybe 85 percent was a combination plus office. And most were combination. So the office is still like central to people's thoughts and they get social interaction. But no one, almost no one wanted to go back five days a week, which I found really interesting. Yeah, I think that's right. Actually here where I live, you know, I'm down in Sussex, a friend of mine is an estate agent. He was saying, lots of interest in people moving out of London, you know, looking for the country life, they don't have to commute every day, you know, be in the office days a week or you know, whatever. Yeah, so it's definitely made a change. Yeah, I think there's a lot of spring to an estate agent the other day. And there's a lot of vacant properties to let in central London, like zone one, zone two, as you're right, like people have, they've even left the country to go home for lockdown, wherever that might be. Because I think it's 55 percent of people that live in London aren't from the UK. So fair enough. And then, yeah, people, people have been moving out to, or trying to move out to the countryside if the countryside want them. Yeah, exactly. So what's your, what's your background? So what if you, yeah, can you tell everyone a bit about your background and be a great place to start? Yeah, so I've been involved in creating branded experiences, well, for 30 years, you know, I mean, I came up with the publishing industry and as a marketing director. And, and then literally went into the sort of deep end of the trade show business, used to run a big IT or tech show called Comdex. It was one of the largest shows in the world. Just to give you an idea, you know, 1.2 million square feet of floor space, you know, 6500 exhibitors, 225,000 attendees just in Las Vegas for a week. It was also replicated in 20 countries around the world under license. So it was ginormous trade show. And I went, I was there for a few years and then moved into the agency world, working for an agency called George B. Johnson for a dozen years as the MD of the business in Europe here out of London. And then I joined another big agency in the events world called Freeman and then MCI. And then about a year ago, a few colleagues and I formed our own sort of little collaboration called Experience Designed. And essentially, what we do is help creative organizations, whether it's a client, you know, a vendor client, a business client, or whether it's an agency to use new kinds of planning and design tools to create better experiences for people. And particularly in this day and age when experience is becoming more important, but it's also becoming multi-platform in the sense that it's just not live experience, it's online experience, it's packaging, it's customer service, you know, every touch point of a brand now is the brand identity. It becomes a little more complex and needs to be and a different approach is really required. And that's the kind of stuff that I'm involved in. Has it changed or has the focus changed much since the pandemic? Obviously there's no live. Yeah, if anything, our approach has been endorsed. I mean, I think, you know, we were saying all along that, you know, when you, you know, the whole movement around live events and experiences in corporate brands has been growing dramatically in the last couple of years. And, you know, up to like 20, 35, 30% of some corporation's budgets are being spent on live experiences, you know, conferences and trade shows and in-store activations and sponsorships of events and those sorts of things. So, you know, it's become important. And I think brands have really recognized the value of not just broadcasting at audiences, but actually engaging them in more meaningful ways. And so it's become, you know, big business. I think the thing is that, you know, we all have a tendency to not want to or a difficulty in embracing change, you know. So a lot of the events in the free was kind of in denial that digital and virtual events and online experiences actually played a role. And they only really tiptoed around it a little bit. And I think this is kind of, you know, the client, my clients used to say to me, you know, yeah, all that stuff sounds really fascinating, but we can't afford it in any way. If it's not broken, don't fix it. Well, the great thing about the coronavirus episode is that it's broken, you know. Right. Do you think it will ever go back to like a big, live, you know, 1.2 million square foot of space? I mean, will we ever get back to that, do you think? You know, I'm not a pandemic expert. So I don't know, you know, you know, what the future will hold in terms of the safety of people, large numbers getting together. But I know that I believe that, you know, we will begin to understand that better integration between live and online experience needs to happen. And not just because of coronavirus and safety concerns, but because online engagement sometimes is more effective and more powerful, has greater reach and is more sustainable than live multinational congresses and trade shows. I think we're definitely going to see them work more closely together, I think. It's interesting. I think, I mean, I guess the point is, I mean, I've spoken to people that often go to these events and they're really enjoying it online. I mean, I've spoken to a guy the other day and he's like, you know, I go to like a bunch of events in his industry and they're always in different countries and he got a bit tired of it. And now he's been to them and they've been online and he said, look, you know, it's been really great. I can do it with my home and the experience is better. And he was thinking, do I really want to go back to these, not for the safety aspect of COVID, but just he seems to be getting more value and and saving time doing online. I mean, for example, you know, advertising week and they did a, they did a JPEG advertising week, like maybe four or five weeks ago. And I mean, pre-pandemic, obviously, I wouldn't be flying over to Japan, but I managed to attend virtually. It was great. And I saw the, I saw each session because it was recorded and after I just, it just feels like the experience is, is great. And it gets to such a wider audience. Yeah, I think that I think that's right. The reach is, is, is, you know, tremendous. I mean, a kind of really interesting thing here is that this isn't the first, our first adventure into the disaster in the live events industry. If you remember back in sort of 2008, 2009, when we had the big recession and the financial crisis, you know, events were being canceled left and right and lots of corporations were taking their events online into virtual experiences, you know, even Comdex, the big trade show used to work for went virtual, was Comdex virtual. It was clunky and it was avatar based and it was, you know, you wouldn't do it now. But, but it was, it was a big move to say, you know, the technology's there, it may not be ready yet. And, but that'll, that'll change, you know, that'll continue to evolve. Cisco, for example, you know, the big tech company, they took their global sales meeting virtual back in 2009. You know, they used to fly 20,000 people into Las Vegas in the middle of the summer. And then, then they'd have guys riding bicycles on stage to show how little power their servers required being environmentalists. And they realized, wait a minute, this is a pretty mixed message, you know. And so the, the lesson in all of that was the technology wasn't quite up to speed. But the other part of it was that live experiences do have a place in our culture. And that's probably not going to change. So even in the case of the Cisco experience, you know, when we interviewed all the salespeople who didn't go to Las Vegas, but watched it virtually, participated virtually, we said, what did you think? And they said, yeah, it was really great. And, you know, really cutting edge, but it was really hard to drink beer through a screen. You know, that's the really difficult part. And I think that human aspect means that people, yes, they're going to want to get together again, whether that's just a bunch of people who all have red hair, like red hair day in, in the Netherlands, or people who all ride Brompton bicycles. You know, we are going to want to get together as, as, as people. Does that mean that getting together live is the best way to communicate information, to learn something, to network, not necessarily. And that's where we need to look at the mix of both live and online. Yeah, no, definitely. I mean, for me, you can't beat face to face. You know, I mean, to like, to make friends with people, you've got to spend time with them. And, you know, in companies, you might have a really tough day of strategizing, and then you grab dinner after, you know, or, or it just doesn't beat like, you know, like you meet someone over over a meal, you have a beer, and you just like connect, you know, it's just online is great and the video is great. But for me, it just doesn't, it's just not quite the same. Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, I think, I think, you know, but will we go back to normal? I'm not sure, you know, I think the, the edges of the normal were, were getting a little, a little tattered anyway. I mean, I think even some of the very large events were starting to question, does this make sense? I mean, it used to be that large scale events were all about the numbers. And I could tell you for years, my clients were always about how many people came, you know, and how many people got trapped in the keynote room and sold to you. And I think they recognize today that there are actually better ways to communicate at people in much larger numbers, more cost effectively, more sustainably using digital approaches. So the, the, the sort of focus now has to your point become more human centric. It now really is about engaging with the audience, getting to know your audience much better, developing more personalized experience, you know, creating opportunities for that live audience to collaborate with one another, rather than just calling networking the drinking reception, you know, how do you get people to work together? So I think, you know, that's, that's going to change a lot of things as we move forward. Yeah. So you still think and I do that the human, human connections are still super important and should form part of whatever strategy brands are, you know, planning. Yeah, I think they are. But, you know, the other thing, though, is that we are a new generation of people. I mean, I'm an old guy, but, you know, my, my son's in his mid mid 20s. And, you know, he just, you know, he's come to a couple of large scale events with me and just doesn't get it at all. It's kind of like, what are all these people doing? You know, wasting this number of days wandering around aimlessly going to content sessions that aren't that great, you know, in, in, in being presented with PowerPoint in darkened comfort rooms, you know, it's not necessarily conducive to, to a great experience. So I think young people really now do view the world through a digital and live lens and the two of them get combined. You think I call it sort of on live experience. You think when you're driving with sat nav, you know, you're being directed by an app, but you're essentially physically driving. I think more and more of our lives are happening in that way. I mean, you know, it's, it's, you know, we can block out ads, you know, we don't have to sit through boring content, even if we're physically there, you know, we have our phone, we have our other devices that we can distract ourselves with our attention spans. Well, maybe, maybe they haven't shrunk. Demand for the attention span has certainly grown. You know, there's so much clutter out there of people trying to get, you know, your attention all the time with all the social media that we're involved in the streaming that we're involved with, you know, just all of that stuff that sometimes the human experience is a great way of cutting through that noise and cutting through that clutter and can be meaningful, but only if it's being designed around the needs of the audience and not the needs of the broadcaster, you know, or the event owner. And I think that's an important change that we're going to have to see. Yeah, no, it's interesting. I mean, for me, I really enjoy watching and listening to something like this, you know, a podcast, a video cast, a live stream. I find it really engaging and a lot of people are doing these things and, you know, the quality of the content has really gone high now. The bar has been risen. The live shows I always found over the years quite hit and miss, you know, whether the speaker's good. Also, a lot of people go to these events for networking opportunities, which aren't really like there in reality. Like, you know, you're watching someone speak and then so you can't really speak to the people around you. You might meet people when you're at the drinks or whatever afterwards, but again, kind of, you know, not as many as one would hope, you know, plus it takes a lot of time. And so I think you're right, you know, younger people. And I think just not necessarily age, but just people generally are thinking more about how they spend their time and how they consume content and learning. And I think for me, the human aspect comes from like a one on one, you know, like going to meet my customer or whoever it might be, like face to face and share an experience with them, you know, whether it's a dinner or a walk. I mean, I'm actually doing a lot of walk and talks in the city right now. It's cool that you grab a coffee, you go for a walk and you have that human connection. And then they can watch me on the video or they can listen to a podcast or I can do the same with their one. So I'm really, it's just fascinating how quickly this has all moved on. Yeah, it is really interesting. You know, it's like overnight, all of a sudden, everyone is a virtual event expert. It's the most incredible thing that I've ever seen, you know. Yeah, the text there, right? Like, I mean, this technology we're using to do this. I mean, it's great. You know, you have a good internet connection and you're able to This format, this format is a more demanding format in lots of ways. You know, you know, live event, you're right, you're kind of a trapped, you know, audience, you're there, you made the commitment to be there. The content may not be so great, but you know, you don't want to be rude, you know, you hang around. And we also have this, you know, you want to get your money's worth if you paid for it, right? So even though day one wasn't that great, you go to day two because you're there and you paid for the hotel and the whole thing. And I think there's a lot of that. With this platform, you know, you could just click off. That's true. If you want, you know, I mean, again, and I think that's the other interesting thing about the online world of experiences is that it breaks down the barriers of time and place. It doesn't have to be in one location, geographically, and it doesn't have to happen at any single moment. It can happen over a series of days. It can happen over, you know, it could be just the mornings. It can, you know, you can do lots of different things that are still really convenient, making sure that you're getting the, you know, the most value for the experience. And the other thing is it's also raised, and I think it will continue to raise the standard and the quality of content. You know, I've been to, I can tell you, hundreds, if not thousands of events. And with all good intentions on the part of the organizers, the content is always not that great. It's not always that great. Because there are executives from the company who are speaking and they're really just trying to sell you. And where they're very technical people who are not really good presenters, who have PowerPoint presentations, which are filled with way too much content. And it's really hard to interpret. And, you know, so, you know, this format is a format where the content needs to be rich. It needs to be curated so that, you know, I hear you say something, I know that I can find more information about that with a click. You know, there's lots of that kind of thing that's going to be going on. And I'm looking forward to it. I think it's great. Yeah. Also, I like, I like, I mean, this is conversational style. And I enjoy the conversational style. You know, I think people like to listen to conversations and, and you're right. So many of the presentations in conferences are set, like there's a sales slant to it. You know, whether it's the sponsors VP of whatever, talking. And you can always just smell the sales a little bit. Whereas, whereas with something like this, it's, it's, it's less formal. Right. It's a little bit more relaxed. But to your point, someone can watch for 30 seconds and be on top on the, on the side of their YouTube and they've clicked onto that instead. And they've come down this rabbit hole of, so, so you really have to work hard, I think, to create great content, but also accept that they're not, people aren't necessarily going to watch the whole thing. That's right. Yeah. And that's the beauty of it too is because, you know, you've changed up the sort of cost structure here too. And that is, you know, you're not, you know, for virtual events, you're not dealing with catering and venues and transport and, you know, the logistics and all of those costs. You know, it seems to me that, you know, you should be paying more attention to the experience, the content, the engagement, the ability to allow your audience to participate, even if it's electronically. I think it's really, really important. And sometimes that gets lost. I can tell you lots of event planners that I've worked with over the years, you know, you know, the, their boss says we want to do an event. And right away it's how many people, you know, there's a venue. Are we having a, are we having a reception? You know, they go right down this new logistics path. And I understand that. And those things are important. So I'm not criticizing them. But I'm saying, you know, I like to, I'd rather hear them say, why are we doing the event? What's the purpose? What do we hope to achieve? Who's the audience that we need to engage with? And who are they? And what do we really know about them other than their job title? Are they risk takers? Are they, you know, are they more safety conscious? Are they, do they want to innovate? Or do they want to just be more productive? You know, what kinds of people are they and making sure that we're developing content and experiences, which, you know, suit the needs of our audiences in order to achieve our objective. And those discussions are important in live events and often don't happen to the extent they should, but they are critical in online events because you literally can check out. Yes. And as we know, brand is super important, right? I mean, building your brand online or offline is, is, in my opinion, anyway, and correct me if I'm wrong, you're the expert, but super critical. It's really critical. Yeah, we were just talking about this the other day. We were, I was, I was actually doing a virtual event and, you know, I was speaking on a virtual event and we were talking about our perceptions of brands, how we create in our mind, you know, what a brand is about and all the touch points that we use. And I was using the example of Apple and, and saying how many people use Apple products and everyone was saying what we all do at some level, you know. So I said, okay, we're going to an Apple event. What's the venue like? And everyone was saying, well, it's glass and steel and white and clean and, you know, it's somewhere cool. The young crowd, old crowd, young crowd, jeans or suits, jeans, chicken or sushi, sushi. And then one guy said, you know, don't you just love when you open that iPhone box, that sort of vacuum that happens and then there's the phone, you know, that all those little things create the sort of identity and the cohesion of those experiences and, you know, create the identity of the brand. Yeah, some of the sensory marketing. So like the touch, the smell, because, you know, with Apple, it's great. They've done a great thing. I mean, you'd go and buy this room as they're building a car to rival Tesla and you'd probably buy it, you know, like it's a cool brand. Would you buy a car from Nokia? Probably should. Yeah, that's right. That's right. And it's interesting. It's even in spite of brand's best efforts in some ways, because, you know, take a brand like IBM, I think they've done a lot to sort of modernize the IBM brand. No question about that. And to, you know, to really sort of modernize the sort of big blue concept. But even still, when you ask people, we're going to an IBM event, they say it's a hotel or a Congress center. There's more old people than young, they're in suits, not jeans, and you're eating chicken. So, you know, these brands, they imprint on us, you know, our image of who they are. And that's very tough to change, unless you're really, really consistent with every touch point in the experience. I'm really impressed with Microsoft the last, like, five, 10 years, because they're an old company, you know, they've been going for a long time. For me, anyway, it just feels like they've really, they've upped the game and they've been able to keep pace with some of these newer tech firms. And I think they've done great. You know, they have some visionary leadership now, you know, yeah. And then they obviously bought LinkedIn. And so I think that's a good, that's a cool story. On the online content, because I think whether we go back to live events or not, it's a huge part now of, you know, of a brand advertising strategy. You've seen people do it well, or you've seen people kind of falling over the line of a bit of selling and like similar to the live edge steps of stage and turn the camera on and they... Well, you know, I think the, and again, this is just my sort of opinion, but I think this whole concept of pivoting is kind of an awkward concept. I think the idea is we should have been transforming the live experience approach to incorporate online experiences all along. And it really isn't a matter of I can't do that anymore. Let's do that and expect it to be terrific. I think the great thing though is that I think everybody is willing to participate with less than great right now. I think there's a fair amount of forgiveness on the part of audiences that, you know, bandwidth isn't always great everywhere. And, you know, people are really just getting a hang of these tools, but that won't last very long. You know, people will distance themselves. And I think, you know, there are, you hear more and more I'm reading articles about how, you know, this is great business for the broadcast industry because all those production people who understand how to create a content broadcast are very useful in online, you know, kinds of development so that they, you know, they know how to build storylines and narratives and, you know, create that peak and, you know, use information in bite-sized pieces and, you know, make sure that they're, you know, putting breaks in between key ideas and doing all those kinds of things that we traditionally haven't done in the live experience, but make for way better content and way better content absorption. So I think it's more and more, you know, improvement in all of that. You know, I always tell this story that, you know, one time when I was way back when I worked in publishing, I went to this event in New York. It was actually called the Siebold seminars. It was about online publishing and it was, when online publishing was just emerging and I went there and the chairman of the company I worked for was there, a publishing company, and he was there and we were print publishers of magazines and newspapers and he was speaking. Anyway, he got up on stage and he said, you know, a lot of my colleagues came up to me today and said, don't worry, this online publishing thing will never take off. You know, who wants to read on a small, you know, computer screen. And he said, but it didn't make me feel very good because I can remember when television emerged, everybody in radio said, don't worry, it'll never take off. Who wants to watch a man reading into a microphone? And I think the same is true here when we start thinking about virtual events and digital experiences, you know, we don't know what's to come. You know, the possibilities are tremendous. And, you know, yeah, while radio still exists and print publication still exists, you know, there's been a transformation of the industry and our behavior around television and there will be around digital as well. Yeah, you're right. You're right. I mean, you know, there's been an uptick in live shows as well, like live streams, which is quite interesting. Yeah, e-sports, you know, incredible, incredible. Unbelievable. I mean, you know, something non-tech like the bicycle. I mean, bicycle shops stayed open during lockdown and they've had a renaissance. Oh yeah, no question. Huge renaissance. So yeah, you never quite know. But I think what's interesting is that, I mean, this is this is here to stay, you know, content, the importance of brands to get content right, to up the game. I mean, you're right, people are quite forgiving, but, you know, if your internet connection is dodgy, it's not going to wash for very long, right? So the UK certainly needs to upgrade internet in the country side. But what's also interesting is data and consumer insights. I mean, that's been around for a long time. But I think it's, so correct me if I'm wrong, but more and more informing brands about what their customers are thinking and feeling and so forth. Yeah, that's kind of an interesting concept. One, for example, some of my clients are saying, wow, you can actually gather much more data from digital experiences than you can from live experiences, you know, where you're relying on the audience to participate in the polling or in the data collection or in the data gathering. You know, so this is something where, you know, you can really, it's a much more effective tool. But there's also a change there too. And I think you use the words interchangeably, but I don't think they're the same word. There's a difference between data and insights. And I think that's really going to be important as we move forward. You know, I think the traditional business strategy model has always been about analyzing the present and past, and then making predictions about the future, based on those assumptions. You know, so, well, it's been my experience in the last 20 years that if you don't have a margin of this amount by the first quarter, then you're going to be screwed to the second quarter. You know, there's the kinds of calculations that we've seen traditionally how businesses are run, which is has been, I guess, a safe way to do it. But it's also been an inhibiting, inhibiting to innovation and inhibiting to change because you really don't want it to be, you know, not enough, you know, you don't want to embrace the unfamiliar, you know, you want to make sure that you sort of as safe as you can be. And of course, transformation and innovation is inherently unfamiliar. If it was familiar, then it wouldn't be a breakthrough, would it? So, and I think in the new approach to planning and to, you know, we're taking more of a design approach, the issue is less about mapping data and much more about understanding insights and direction. What are people's intentions? What are their, you know, kinds of behaviors are they exhibiting so that we can start to find ways of predicting what the future might look like, and that it might look different, and that we can create solutions to sort of embrace the future rather than be modeled on the past. And that is a really fundamental and important thing in developing human centered experiences in that we need to understand people for a change rather than data. Yes, very different approach. Absolutely. I'd also say though, and a lot of people, whether it be entrepreneurs or people in larger businesses, they get a bit scared to create content, you know, it's like it's tough to go on a video and want to podcast or film yourself doing some content. And so for me, like you can only really get the good quality insights if you have the data, right? So if you go and do like loads of content, you know, after a year, you can have loads of cool data to be able to like delve in, get the insights to then refocus and double down on the bits that have done well, or you'll understand, you know, who's consumed and so forth. Yeah, no, that's really important. And again, I think, you know, it's a classic actually in the events industry in particular, that, you know, they talk a lot about data, but they rely on it very little. But the beauty of this, I mean, even with the podcast, I mean, this podcast I've been doing, we moved to video during lockdown, but it's been about two years. And you start from small numbers and it grows nicely if you do it regularly and consistently and you're up the game and stuff, but you get so much rich data, you know, you find out, you know, where people are listening, what time they're listening, which ones are more popular than others. And, and, you know, suddenly I went from, I went from my friends laughing at me that I did a podcast to them listening to me, to them asking me how to do it themselves, to them lockdown happening and everyone wants to do a podcast, you know. And, but my point is that, you know, now I'm just, you just got to do stuff, you know, like, don't be afraid to try. And, and then once you do it and you do it regularly and you do it often, you just improve and you get better and you get better at it. And I think, you know, I think if you're running a company or, you know, you're trying to build the brand of your business, it's so important to do these things. Yeah. And again, and I think the enablers in terms of technology and also, you know, the capabilities of generate half the world's population is under 34. I mean, you know, most people don't remember when, you know, phones had wires attached to them, you know, so I think, you know, we are in that state now where there's more, there's more ability to consume different kinds of formats and different kinds of content and different kinds of experiences, even to the point where, you know, I just, someone was telling me a story last week about how, you know, people who are homebound, elderly or homebound, receiving homebound care, are now, you know, having Zoom calls with their relative, you know, with the hospital, for example, where they're being monitored and, you know, this is all completely new, like whoever heard having a Zoom call. And it's a completely transformative experience for them, where they may not get to talk to anyone the entire week. So then Zoom has made it so much easier to do. VR, virtual reality, and being able to take people on trips, even though they're bound to their bed, back to their home village in, you know, Yugoslavia, I mean, you know, whatever it is, the power to use technology to create experiences that transform human experience is, it's just amazing. Oh, it's incredibly amazing. My grandma, she's 98, and she has been locked in her room in her old age home in Cape Town, and been allowed out for two months. She tried to escape with a Xima frame, but they found her and brought her straight back. But she's able, they bring in, like they brought in a computer, and we Skyped, and we saw her, and she saw us. That's great. It's great, like the smile on her face, and lots to be locked in her room, and certainly at that age, I mean, she's like, I'm gonna die anyway. I mean, if I get COVID, you know, so yeah, you're right. I mean, it's just great that she's able to talk to her family who aren't in South Africa and stuff like that. So what an amazing opportunity we have, really, that COVID made me woke up a sleeping giant. You know, that we recognize now that you actually can create really high quality experiences on different platforms than just live, and that's not to say that live is not important, because I think it is, as we both discussed, but I think just imagine what can be created using the technology that's available to us now to reach communities that aren't generally reached, to engage people in conversations that aren't usually engaged, to communicate with people important information that they need, no matter where they are, no matter what time zone. You know, just the possibilities are tremendous and exciting. I think it's great, and then the really the cool thing about video, which I love is, you know, maybe 100 years ago, or 50 years ago, probably, you have to be able to read to learn, and now you just have to be able to listen or watch or know the language that someone's talking in or use Google Translate to translate it to your language. It's just enabled more and more people now to educate themselves, to learn, which is a great, great, great thing, and for brands to be able to reach, I mean, so many more people. And there's this overlining on all of this is that, you know, this technology is not only about business conferences and, you know, conference calls and those kinds of things, it's a real enabler to do good in our world, you know. I mean, there's real possibilities that we can transform people's lives by creating better content and online experiences, and the tools are becoming available to us. So what an exciting future, you know, where you can actually do good in the world with this technology. Definitely. Well, what a beautiful place to end. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining me. Really appreciate it. And I'm looking forward to a live meeting with you when this all opens up in the new world. We'll have to do, we'll do comedians in cars or whatever that, you know. Did you ever see that? Oh, the carpool thing. No, not carpool, karaoke. This is, it's, what's his name, Seinfeld. Yeah. Yeah. He does comedians in cars. Right. Okay. Yeah. He drives around with another comedian in a car. Let's do that. Yeah. Yeah. And video visit. Yeah. We'll get a nice Tesla. We'll stream it live. Sounds nice. Done. Thank you so much. Have a great one. Thank you. It was great. Thanks very much.