 I'd like to invite to the stage Dr. Akum Toonalo, the Vice Minister of Natural Resources and Environment of Laos. Please welcome Dr. Toonalo. Next I would like to invite to the stage Frankie Vijaja, Chairman and CEO of Golden Agri Resources Cinema Group and Group Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer of Olam, Mr. Sunny Virgizi. Please join us at the stage. I'd like to invite now Peg Putt. She's a CEO, Markets for Change. And finally I'd like Andrea Basi, Dr. Andrea Basi to join the stage who's the CEO of Knowledge SRF. It's my privilege to introduce this session on green growth and first I'd like to say a few words about our panellists and why I believe I am privileged and all of you are very lucky to have them for this particular session. Minister Akum Toonalo, the Vice Minister of Natural Resources and Environment of Laos, has a PhD in Philosophy and Agriculture and over 20 years of experience not only managing but teaching these subjects. Before this he was the Vice Minister, before he was the Vice Minister he was also Chairman of the Economic and Finance Committee of the Laos National Assembly. Minister Toonalo, another word of applause for you. The green economy is also about green business and we have two business representatives here. Frankie Vijaja who is of course as I mentioned the CEO of Golden Agri Resources of Cinema has a remarkable and laudable target of achieving a fully 100% certified palm business by 2015. Golden Agri Resources is of course the second largest world's oil palm producer so that's not a small target in that sense. Frankie has distinguished himself also as the Vice Chair and earlier Chair of the Agri and Food side of Kadin and he chairs the Indonesian Palm Oil Board. A applause for... Thank you. Sunny Virgis is Chief Executive of Olam and he has constantly promoted the message that maximizing the intrinsic value of companies can be achieved only by respecting sustainability principles so I think that is very much the kind of thinking that we'd like to hear about today. Olam, his company is a global agribusiness and it integrates the management of entire supply chains and the processing of agricultural products, food products. Peg, I'd like to commend you for being here with us all the way from Tasmania where you were a Member of Parliament for 15 years and you worked a lot in the field of the environment and you also are a recipient of the Tasmanian Honor Roll of Women in the service of the environment of 2011. Thank you for being here. Andrea Basi, CEO of Knowledge SRL is a researcher in this whole area of understanding how to model economies into our future. He works on system dynamic modeling and whilst based in Switzerland he is an extraordinary professor of system dynamic modeling at Stelenbosch University in South Africa. A word of applause for Andrea Basi. Friends, the topic that we are discussing today which is green growth in Southeast Asia is close to my heart. My own background as leader of the green economy initiative for the United Nations Environment Program and the study leader of TIB was very much about the heart and center of natural capital and its role in green growth and the idea that the way that we manage our economies today is not one that can continue into the future. We have heard that from President Giudiono, we have heard that from the ministers who spoke earlier and you are hearing that from our panel. When we say green growth, what we really mean is the kind of growth that will be seen in tomorrow's economy and frankly tomorrow's economy has to be a green economy, an economy which in the United Nations we have defined as an economy that delivers well-being whilst improving social equity which means narrowing the gap between the rich and the poor and at the same time not increasing environmental risks like climate changing emissions or pollutants and poisons and not worsening ecological scarcities like soil fertility or fresh water availability. That kind of economy requires a different sort of management approach. It requires much more collaboration and cooperation between governments as we have heard between the private sector. The private sector is two thirds of GDP and jobs. It is not really feasible to talk a language of a different economy without talking the language of a different private sector. I call that new company, that new corporation, Corporation 2020, a visionary forward-looking corporation but actually which is needed now by 2020 in order to be able to deliver the changes that we talk about. A lot is being discussed in setting the sustainable development goals but we must remember that when we talk about sustainable development, these goals are not only productivity goals which companies can and know how to deliver on their own but there are also inclusion goals which relate to equity which means making sure that there is progress for all and at the base of this pyramid there are the resilience goals, the whole idea that we must have security in the environment in order to be able to do business at temperatures which make sense with soil fertility and freshwater availability that is real and continues into the future and indeed security politically and socially at the end of the day we don't want to be in a world which is fraught with terrorism and wars and tragedy of a humankind that is also completely against the principle of a green economy. With this quick background and knowing that managing economies and working with governments is critical, I would like to learn how law has fared in its belief and progress towards green growth and a green economy. Vice Minister, your country has 40 or 50 percent forest cover. Hydroelectricity is a huge part of your energy supply. Enforcement of forest conservation is a huge challenge. Tell us, Enlau, what kind of economy do you envisage today and into the future and what is your experience? We would like to hear about it. Dr. Peter Hogan, Minister, this thing is lady and gentlemen. La Pidia has been a country with rapid economy and our target, the least developing country by 2020, our natural resources, we just assess, forest cover about more 40 percent with the large mineral deposits and the mineral tributaries of the Mekong providing hydro power potential, with a vast potential of the power we envision to become the battery of the South-East Asia, providing clean energy for our own development and also for the rising energy demand for our neighboring, becoming the battery of South-East Asia, it linked to our arbitrage, going to increase the forest cover 70 percent by 2040. We acknowledge the necessary to protect our watershed and biodiversity. Still today, Lau has decided 6.6 million hectares of protection for 3.5 million hectares of conversation for us and 3.3 million hectares of production for us. We must have to be done to actively manage these resources, how steps are underway to address the challenges we are facing. Environmental protection laws have been passed last year by our national assembly, land policy, land law, and forest law are currently revised. We also now engage with the EU in the forest law enforcement, governance and trade process and want to negotiate with a voluntary partnership agreement to address illegal locking in the country and system management and trade and commerce of tender products through forest certification have been promoted by the government to promote the forest certificate that FCC and the national FLECT process can unite stakeholders in the quest for the increasing green economy. It can address fair trade, the need to balance the social, cultural, economic and environmental dimension of development and environmental concern for biodiversity and carbon-based forest to promote the marketing of non-poverty products, forest products, and to remove barriers to the market of green forest products from the law PDR as in getting the poverty reduction strategy. And also the government is piloting raise price and payment for ecosystem service which would translate into opportunity to the new resource for the construction and restoration of the forest as part of the green growth process in the forest sector that the policy with the government law government will follow. Thank you. Thank you, Minister. Mr. Vijaja, your company has a huge presence and also tremendous goals towards sustainability. Tell us how you plan to achieve this and tell us your experience and also it would be good to hear your thoughts on any new market mechanisms or financing mechanisms that would help you to get there. Thank you. Distinguished guests, Distinguished delegates, participants, ladies and gentlemen, a very good morning to you. Thank you for SIFOR for organizing this timely conference and inviting me to join this important forest dialogue. We live in the world where the countries have more and more mouth to feed with fewer and fewer resources. We need to create employment and we need to conserve forest. We also have businesses to run for which we need to grow shareholders' value. So how do we find the solution to achieve the ultimate bottom line for our people, planets and profits? When you come to the country which you have 40% of the South Asia tropical rainforest, all eyes and many fingers are pointed at you. But you all know that it is not just Indonesia or palm oil. Everyone in this room has a vital role to play. We collectively face the challenges and we need to find a solution in consultation with each other. That's why this SIFOR summit is very important. We at Gordon Agri are the palm oil business. The industry plays a vital role in Indonesia economy. It is strategic pillars and it provides jobs for more than 5 million people. In 2013, palm oil contributed 11 billion US dollars and accounted for 10% of Indonesia non-oil and gas export. When the Asia financial crisis hit in 1998, many businesses collapsed but palm oil industry is too firm. It continues to provide lively food for people, revenue for Indonesia and profit for businesses. Palm oil plays a significant part in our lives for Indonesia. It ensures that the countries which has 250 million people to feed. Indonesia exports its palm oil to worldwide including back to some African countries where it first comes from. So now, so how do we leverage the natural blessing of the amazing palm oil tree? How do we ensure palm oil does not lead to deforestation? The forests are Indonesian national treasure while it's our heritage. These forests are also an essential part of the global ecosystem. To conserve high carbon stocks for us, Gordon Agri has initiated a multi-stakeholder platform involving stakeholders like TFT and Greenpeace. We also are encouraged by other industry players who have now adopted similar commitments. But this multi-stakeholder journey has its challenges. For instance, we collectively shared the lack of one map while good work has been done to map Indonesia forests and natural resources. I believe that having one map will unleash Indonesia potential. Without it, opportunistic player can wriggle out through the cracks and operate without being sustainable. We can fix this when we work together to tighten the gaps of one undisputed map. One map will benefit all stakeholders. Finally, we also need practical initiative to small holders who accounted for 43% of about 4 million hectares of total 9.2 million hectares of palm oil plantation in Indonesia. Independent small holders have limited access to financial support and technology know-how, and this contributes to their poor performance. If you look at it, low productivity is mainly due to the low yielding inferior seed, improper fertilizer application and a poor plantation management. So now, along with our concerted effort on the conservation and sustainability front, we also have innovative financing scheme for our small holders to increase their productivity. These interns help them to improve the livelihood and reduce the pressure to open more land. We also have Cardin, the Indonesia Chamber of Commerce of the industry, the organization which is close to my heart and I have served as Cardin vice chairman for agriculture and food for more than 80 years now. We have invited an exciting financing scheme for some 1 million independent oil pump small holders to receive funding through initiatives. With this financial support, farmers replanting their existing palm oil plantation and we be assisted through the initial 4 years that they need to wait to harvest their palm trees. The cardin scheme could mean tripling yield and resulting in additional production of 5 to 6 million tons of oil from small holders. This translates into additional income of up to 5 billion dollars a year and more importantly, through this scheme, we could avoid opening 1 million hectares of new land for palm oil development. Ladies and gentlemen, to secure a better future for people, forest and business, all of us need to do our part. I am confident that through multi-stakeholder collaboration we will find solutions for sustainable palm oil and converting, conserving our precious forest. Thank you. That was a fascinating example you gave of the cardin scheme, Frankie, and what you are saying is essentially a tripling of yield is possible with the right inputs and the right management and as a result of that, your small holders, the 43% who comprise 4 million hectares of land, about 43% of the planted area. And they could actually be tripling their yield. Now, this is not dissimilar to some studies done on food in sustainable food practices around the world, studied in 2006 and again by the FAO in 2009, suggesting that a doubling of yield was not dreaming, it was reality was possible. But tell me, and this is, how do you see this finance? What is the way of supporting this? How will the money flows happen to ensure that these small holders actually receive the financing in time and are able to implement the new practices that you speak of? Thank you. So basically the yield today is about 2.5 tons per hectares. And for them to replant, because this is their only source of income, for them to replant they need to be financed during this four-year period during the pre-planting period. So our so-called innovative financing is addressing these issues. And economically it's also very sound because if 2 million hectares that is very low yield that we're going to replant, normal replanting is about $4,000. If we add interest during construction plus the cost of living during four years, there will be around $8,000. So it will be about $16 billion needed to fund these 2 million hectares replanting. And economically basically if 3, 5 to 6 million tons increase, times $800, it will be about $4 to $5 billion increase. So I think no brainer that about four years this finance will be returned. But certainly we will not return in four years because the farmers also need some income. So we will spread that about 8 to 9 years basically. So this we already discussed with the government. We have launched that last September with the Coordinated Ministers and thank you for all the some of the ambassador also joining all this kickoff meeting. Very good. And are the banks supporting this? Yes. We also in the World Comic Forum, we have launched this so-called sustainable agriculture, so-called PISAGRO, partnership for Indonesia agriculture, green agriculture. So we have many other crops similar to this using innovative financing also. Excellent. Well, keep fingers crossed and may succeed. Yes, we will make our fat. Thank you. Thank you. Sunny, we just heard one example of if you like a supply chain component which is a part of the palm, potentially increasing its yield with the right kind of support and technology and advice. Your whole business is the entire value chain of food. Tell us when we're looking towards green growth and a green economy and working in a way that business does not deliver higher negative impacts but positive impacts, in fact, how would you go about it with Ola? What would be your challenge? How would you go about it? Tell us about it. Pavan, with your permission, let me just set the context a bit and I'll answer your specific question. I believe there are four major developmental challenges that we face this century and that's about food security, water security, impact of climate change and energy security. And all these four major developmental challenges, while it's a complex problem has got interrelated and interlocked causes. It is therefore a bit disappointing when you go to conferences like this. We address this very piecemeal, single issues that we take at a time but that's not going to solve the overall problem. So unless we can have an integrated solution to these major developmental challenges we are unlikely to make any sustainable long-term breakthroughs. The food security issue I think we all know about the drivers. We have a growing population, it was mentioned, 70 million people being added to the world each year. They all need to be fed. It's not a new problem. We have coped with it well in the past. But what is game-changing that we have not seen in our lifetime is there is increasing prosperity in the transition economies and a huge middle class emerging. In 2010 we were 1.8 billion people in the middle class. By 2030 we expected to be 4.8 billion. Roughly 3.03 billion people are being added to the middle class. 90% of that will be in India and China and a lot in this part of the world. In the western and developers very little additional growth in the middle class. They all need to be fed but more importantly there is increase in calorie consumption. As a rough rule of thumb people in low-income countries consume 2,600 calories per capita. Middle income it is 3,000 and high income it is 3,600. So there's at least a 20% growth in calorie consumption that we are going to see in India in the next 20 years. And same in China. I don't believe that India and China have a reasonable prospect of feeding itself in 10, 15 years time. This might be a provocative statement but that I believe is the fact. The third issue is there's a revolution in dietary habits from a cereal carbohydrate based diet to protein and fat based diet. In the mid 80s China consumed 15 kgs of meat per capita. Today it's 55 kgs. The western world consumes about 120 kgs of meat per capita. And we said China and India can never eat as much meat as the westerners do. Taiwan and Hong Kong which are greater parts of China consume 100 kgs of meat per capita. It's all about prosperity. If we can afford it you will eat more of these protein and fats. The fourth issue that we are seeing is urbanization and the impact of urbanization. There's a revolution in urbanization. India has hit 30% urbanization rate this year. China has hit 51% this year. Africa has 40%. Latin America has about 70%. Urban population consumes roughly three times the meat per capita as rural populations. And about three and a half times dairy products as rural populations. So China today consumes 40% of all the pork that is produced in the world. 30% of all the eggs that is produced in the world. And that is a step out of change both in demand and therefore the direction of prices. If you take the 30 year price history of wheat, wheat between 1970 and 2000 declined by minus 23%. Between 2001 and 2013 it grew at 208%. Corn declined by 23% in the 30 year period and has now grown by about 230% in the last 13 years. Rubber declined 55% in the 30 year period. It has now grown 350%. And this is not being really noticed and seen. There's a step out of change in food, feed, fiber prices. And that trend is going to continue as there is going to be a growing demand supply imbalance as we go forward. And as of all this was not tough enough, we shot ourselves in the feed by diverting more and more food and feed raw materials into biofuel manufacturing. 40% of the US corn crop got diverted into biofuels. 52% of the Brazilian sugar cane crop went into ethanol manufacturing. 10% of all world oil seeds last year went into biofuel manufacturing. And on the supply side, we have serious constraints. We have declining arable land, 0.8% in China every year. If you look at the urban crop, crawl and the satellite maps, you will see that there is significant loss. If you look at the Chinese 12-5 year plan estimates, they want food self-sufficiency, which is defined by them as 95% of the food they should produce themselves, which needs 124 million hectares of land. They probably now got about 116 million hectares of land and the cultivation, and that is going to further decline. Just as a result of their urbanization, China today has roughly 80 million fleet population. Based on 14 million cars being added in the last four years, they had gone to about 130 million cars. At 8, Chinese fleet intensity in terms of number of cars per thousand people is still today only about 58, compared to the US of 790, compared to a world average of 148 cars per thousand people. Even if China just achieves a world average, it is going to trouble its car population. What is the impact on food production? Every car that is added to the fleet population, you have to set aside 0.08 hectares of land for supporting the car in terms of the roads and in terms of the parking lots and the spaces that are required, which means China, if it projects to get to about 150 cars per thousand population, which is just the world average, and there is an estimate out there which says Chinese fleet population will go to 630 million cars in 25 years time. But let's not go there. Just 150 million cars, 50 million hectares would be taken out of cultivation. On the four major food crops, China has 90 million hectares under cultivation. Why is China today the world's largest importer of soybeans? Because it has got a water constraint and a water issue. And the best way to import water is to import a capesize full of soybeans from South America. Water is a major issue. We today consume 4.5 trillion cubic metres of water. 71% of that is for agriculture. In the northeast part of China, water tables are receding at 4 metres per year. In the northwest part of India, water tables are receding at 6.5 metres per year. China has about 8%, 22% of the world's population with 8% of its water. And India has about 20% of the world's population with about 9% of its water. If you can fight a war over oil, be prepared for bigger geopolitical conflicts on water, on food. So how do you solve this problem? It therefore has to be a holistic problem. There are some in this room who will say, all big agriculture is bad. And it's only small scale agriculture that is good. I don't think that is a balanced view. I think you need both systems to co-exist. Large scale farming systems as well as small scale farming systems. From a practitioner's point of view, we are today probably the most diversified upstream agri-business company globally. We have invested in 19 upstream plantation and farming projects in 22 countries. So we grow almonds in Australia and in California. We grow coffee in Brazil, in Zambia, in Tanzania, in Ethiopia and in Laos. We grow rubber in Kodivore, in Nigeria, in Liberia, in Ghana. We grow grains in Argentina, we grow grains in Russia, we do dairy farming in Uruguay, we do dairy farming in Russia. We have forest concessions in the Republic of Congo. So from a practitioner's point of view, I think there are a lot that we can do. Let me give you just one example. We grow onions in California. And in onions, we grow onions for not-table purposes for dehydration. We have over the last 10 years through research improved solid content in onion from 13-14% to 26.5%. In China today, solid content for onions is about 13%. In India, it's about 12%. Which means we have saved roughly on the acreage that we grow to process tomatoes. And we've got the third largest tomato processing capacity in the US. For the area that we grow, we have saved about 65 million cubic meters of water. And we have saved $88 million in terms of costs. And we've reduced 7,500 hectares from cultivation to meet our factory's capacity requirements. There's just one example. And we've got 170 such programs that we are running. But as was mentioned by Franchi, in all our large-scale agricultural systems, it is only a site show. Your nucleus farm or your main farming operation is only a site show. The bigger part of the activity is really the outgrow program that you're embedding into your ecosystem. In Nigeria, where we grow rice on 4,600 hectares today, which we will take to 10,000 in large-scale mechanized farm with aerial seeding and mechanized harvesting. We have 10,000 farmers in a small outgrow program whose eels have gone up from 1.8 tons to 3.5 tons per hectare. The way we can create true value is to transform the livelihoods by enhancing their productivity, but they can't increase their productivity in a vacuum. They need to see best practice, good agricultural practice, and there has to be a seamless exchange in order to be able to catalyze that. Lovely examples, and I completely agree with you that we tend to box and silo our issues, food security, energy security, climate change, and water security. But I think also equally we sometimes box issues in terms of environmental issues, people issues, and economic issues, and I think let's not fall prey to that. So let me just ask you immediately what you're speaking about in terms of productivity gains, which is of course absolutely one of the components towards sustainability. How can we ensure they reach the bottom of the economic pyramid? Why do we say this? After all 70% of poverty today is in rural agricultural areas. There are 1 billion jobs which are basically small scale agriculture. 400 million farms around this world are less than 2 hectares. These are tiny farmers and yet they employ and feed. And also 80% of the food that is received by food insecure regions comes from these areas, from these small farms. So where's the connect? How can we ensure that the kind of approach and technology and expertise that you speak of which delivers higher productivity is actually available right down to the bottom of this pyramid so that the jobs are there so we don't only talk product but also employment and equity. That's a very good point for it. So in the 65 countries that we are present, we touched directly or involved directly with 3.5 million farmers. Now we offer them 8 things as part of our OLAM livelihoods charter because we believe it is easy for us to go into these countries and get licenses from the government to operate. But it's damn difficult to get a license from the community to operate. Most of these long-term plantation projects that you set up have useful lives of 30, 40, 50 years in the case of pistachios and walnuts, 50 and 60 years. So it's not about going there making a fast buck and getting out of the country. So if you want to really survive long-term in the country, you need the license from the communities to operate. That's far more difficult to get in these countries than just getting a government license to operate. So if you look at the 8 things that we do. Firstly, we provide micro-finance and we provide interest-free loans. We cost it as a part of our cost of production but we provide the farm because the first thing in emerging markets, tough emerging market geographies is the lack of rural finance. The second thing that we provide is a whole extension services package that allows them to improve its productivity. So we work directly, we have now worldwide about 2,000 extension offices, trained agricultural graduates and post-graduates who get the farmers to come to that good practice that we want, which is in that context relevant. The third is we look at quality of gradation. So in the farmer, we can convert them to produce more organically certified raw materials or more traceable raw materials or more customized grades of qualities. We can get a significant premium. Today when we supply organic cashew, we get a 80% premium over in organic cashew and we can supply and share that with the farmers. So that is the third thing that we do. The fourth thing that we do is labor practices. So it is natural in some of these environments for family, all of them to work on the farm to make sure that they ensure that the children go to school and they are not forced on the farms is a major effort and a huge task. So that is the fourth thing that we do. So there are eight things that we do, we won't have time to go through all of that and that catalyzes the livelihoods which is more important for us. Great to hear that because in a sense this is the connect, this is how it goes down. Provide microfinance, provide education, provide quality related advice, provide labor support and market access. I know we are talking a lot about food but I think given that food is also 30% of climate change impact if you take agriculture food and everything that supports it and given that it is a pretty important part of our lives. Let's stay with that for a moment but go from the supply side to the demand side. Peg, you have had a long career in environmental activism if I may say in the broadest possible sense but also in governance as an MP and you come from a different part of the world. What role does the citizen play when she becomes a consumer? How does that equation work in creating a green economy and sustainability? I think it's a very important question to address. When we look at the concept green growth, when you hear the words or what I do I think well that's totally contradictory. It's an oxymoron, one of my favourite words. For growth to become green we obviously need to decouple it from increasing material consumption and in particular from runaway consumption of natural resources and we've all seen the slides up here this morning around the types of problems with just escalating degradation and destruction of natural ecosystems and escalating demand, escalating production. I think the important thing to understand of course is this is happening in a globalised way and that it's in response to demand from developed countries and from the large cities in Asia. We've got globalised trade and investment which is driving large scale projects and these changes, especially in pulp and paper, in mining, in rubber and in oil palm in this region. We can't resolve those problems solely on the supply side or by thinking just out of what we do on the supply side. I'm not saying the supply side isn't important, it's very important and there are a range of things that have already been talked about and we'll hear it through the two days about what we can do to make production more environmentally sustainable. But even if you do that in one place as long as you've got this massive demand coming down the line then you'll just get displacement or leakage as it's called in the climate talks so that you might fix it in one place on the supply side and the pressure just moves somewhere else, you get all the destruction finally get your act together or it's gone and it moves on to the next place and so on and that's of course the tragedy for our planet. So you have to tackle demand. How do you do it? Well I think the first, there are a number of things that can be done the first one is to create a presumption in the opposite direction by which I mean pay to keep it rather than paying to chop it down or dig it up or whatever you do and take it away. That's where the concept of Red Plus comes in paying to maintain the forests and hopefully we can get to those other carbon rich ecosystems like mangroves as well or maybe we could pull them in under red I remember trying to talk about that about five years ago at the climate talks and people thought I was a bit loopy but the time is coming and all the other ecosystem services, they are really vital they're really important for people, they're also important they're simply intrinsically and if we can get money landing to keep them there then good. So that's the first thing. Secondly I think we have to address the drivers, the underlying causes and yes there are a lot of people who obviously need to be able to move out of poverty and will along the way be consuming more but there are also an incredible number of people on the planet who are indulging in wildly inappropriate overconsumption and we have to do something about it. We actually have to restrain that type of lifestyle. And a lifestyle which is causing them ill health as well. Well yes exactly. In fact the way health links in with all of this is absolutely fascinating. So what can you do about that? Well in my experience there are a number of things. You act in the markets. You actually address with people something that our interesting speaker from Singapore talked about earlier, accountability, responsibility. Responsibility is not just something that has to be taken by producing companies. Responsibility has to be taken by consumers and by retail companies and the way I've done it is with the carrot and stick approach for companies. They have a reputation they want to maintain a brand increasingly because of consumer awareness that means that they want to be seen to be doing the right thing about forests and natural ecosystems and so if they're encouraged, if they do the good thing okay they get accolades, do the bad thing, reputational damage will come and so too with consumers many people feel very disempowered by the slow rate of change and the slowness in developed countries of their governments to commit to making real reductions in carbon emissions and they want to do something themselves. This is where they can act and they can act back down the supply chain talking to the retail companies that goes back down to the suppliers and so on about what is actually acceptable in the market and we've had some very big successes with this. Also you can act on investment in a similar way you talk to investment banks about what is their policy and why you make sure that they're informed about what's going on they're often not aware of course of the minutiae around the environmental aspects of the investments they might be making in a company and that company's activities so that's another really important one and of course if it's a bank that ordinary mums and dads bank with they've got the stick that you can use as well and then of course they're just talking to the companies themselves about company policies it's very important that there are companies who are leaders it's also important to deal with those who are laggards and shareholder activism is very very important I think I could go on but that's a taste of the type of thing to be done on the demand side. That's great thanks very much for adding that and also for questioning as you did right at the beginning on growth what do we mean by growth because if all we're achieving is demand growth then that may not achieve sustainability certainly would not be green. Well yeah I mean you know they have TV shows in Australia about how awful it is to have too much stuff well it is awful but it's not just because it clutters up your house it's much more important than that and I think there's a fundamental soul searching to be done as a result of again what we heard from Singapore if you have transparency then you can have accountability but you can also have awareness so education and awareness and encouraging people to action and actually giving them things that they can do simply in their lives and simply to feed back to companies and to producers very very important and very powerful when you get that happening at scale you get a result. Excellent now another dimension which is capital and when we talk green growth and green economy what we really want to grow is wealth and the economic measurement of wealth whether it is human wealth, intellect, skills, future incomes or whether it's wealth in terms of nature and its bounties it's about capital, capital is the economic term for wealth Andrea you worked on this whole issue of modelling different paths in the economy to see what's their impact these different policy paths on the overall capital in the economy so what is your take on this? Do you think it's possible for example to model a path which is green, is inclusive, it's supportive of the bottom of the pyramid it is sustainable on the one hand and on the other hand modelling a path which is business as usual what we are doing today and coming to clear answers is this possible? Have you done it? What does it look like? Thank you Pawan. I'll go for the short answer because the long one may take a week No I only have give you three minutes for you It is certainly possible I think when we talk about green economy and green growth the concept may be new but the interventions are not new so that's something we need to recognise we talked about energy efficiency, water efficiency sustainable forest management for a long time so what is really innovative is the type of analysis we need to do to assess these green economy and green growth interventions so often we start with looking at investments erroneously we call them costs of action but they are really investments these normally accumulate in built capital manufactured capital which is normally what we are able to track very well on the other hand we need to consider also what are the avoided costs that are being driven or generated by investing in green economy interventions now these are potentially the avoided loss in ecosystem services so we are really talking about natural capital when we lose ecosystem services we need to replace them and that requires further investment so it is really an avoided cost and that's something we have analysed for a long time with energy efficiency you invest in energy efficiency to reduce the cost of running a car running your factory and so on and so forth the third item to look at is the added benefits often we say that the economy has to be pro jobs and pro poor like in the case of Indonesia so in this case we are talking about potentially creating new and additional jobs that take care of what is the social and the human capital building in also the knowledge that supports productivity and competitiveness and so on what is really interesting then at this point is to consider how this type of information can contribute to policy formulation and assessment recognising that there are impacts that can be felt or outcomes that emerge within one sector that could be energy or forest or water and so on and so forth but there are also impacts that emerge across actors so we have the public sector, the private sector we have households, we have the poor living in forests and Alibaba diverse areas so this would only be possible if you had a full economy model input output model which covers the entire economy where your modelling is changed based on different policies and investments from one type of economic outcome to the other yes potentially being a dynamic model that accounts for the short, medium and longer term policy interventions across dimensions and is this what you are doing with the UNDP project the low emissions capacity building project? it's an evolving process concepts are getting firmer one challenge in my work I've supported about 20 countries in dealing with green economy and green growth planning across planning processes budgetary processes, medium for longer term and vision type of exercises and the challenge is that every country is unique it has a social, economic and environmental context that is unique so we are doing interesting work here in Indonesia to support the assessment on what the green economy of green growth means at the provincial level as well as at the national level how processes can be improved to become more comprehensive to assess the impacts or the outcomes positive and negative because we know there are side effects that will be emerging so the trick is to anticipate these potential side effects and assess what the consequences are simultaneously on the built capital, on the natural capital and the social and human capital so truly an integrated approach of the kind of if you like testing out in measurement terms in a planner's thinking and in an economic analyst's thinking what are the outcomes so I think it's very difficult to summarize such a rich discussion but I'll just say that we have gone from the perspective of how do we manage an overall country economy from Southeast Asia from Vice Minister from Laos to how does sustainability get embedded into the actions of a company from both of you all the way down to looking down the value chain and looking to different levels of society recognizing that green economy is also about ensuring sustainable production and consumption we had tax views on sustainable consumption how to engender that and the role of education and exemplification and awareness and also then finally the planner's toolkit how do you measure anything as complex as green economy and what Andrea says suggests that it is possible in fact he's working on it I really want to open before I thank the panel I think there's probably time for one or two questions from the floor if there are burning questions can they raise their hand and can someone take a microphone to them a person right at the end on the right hand side the gentleman there yes can you just stand up and first you and then the gentleman in front so can someone take a microphone to the gentleman at the end so please remember the rule that I have for questions is there have to be tweet length your question has to be tweet length everybody in Jakarta is the Twitter capital of the universe so you know what I mean when I say that can someone please take a microphone to the gentleman at the end my name is Faisal Parish from Global Environment Centre working with the ASEAN secretariat on the issue of Transboundary Hays and Pete Fires my question is to Freddie Wajaja earlier today we heard the challenge from the Singapore Minister how do we get everyone working together in partnership private sector, government civil society you have mentioned some of the initiatives that you have worked about financing for Small Holder but still we are having major problems and we had in Rio earlier this year I understand that for GAR you have been able to minimise the problem of peatland fires on your lands but how can you play a role to spread that to much larger landscapes around your operation how can you work with other stakeholders and what are the challenges to that in creating a Transboundary Hays-free environment for peatland development thank you well, for Golden Agri we have already put the policy for non-peatland plantation for already more than 3-4 years and basically the government still allow plantation up to 3 metres depth these are the things that maybe the policy issues need to be revisited the other part is basically for those areas which is they, I think a lot of the small holders are still still doing the what you call it the stress and burns we are not practice basically and the initiative that we have for a million hectares for 2 million hectares replanting to increase their productivity and their income hopefully that will reduce the for them to wanted to plant more in other areas where it's actually a conserved areas also so these are the things that I think the government to simultaneously increase their productivity increase their income reducing those areas where it's already prohibited and also certainly is the capacity building how to make sure that they understand the good agriculture practice so these are the concerted effort as a totality how we address these issues and we see some progress but the weather is not helping us we understand that Elinio is coming 75% prediction that's going to come later half of this year we hope we are now preparing how to reduce the effect on this Elinio thanks thanks for answering I know we've been talking a lot about agriculture and food and I've been reminded that lunch approaches so it is now my privilege to thank our speakers thank you excuse me you'll have to really be very quick quickly then we can have one quick answer very quick to Mrs Pegg but I'm interested in your point in your solution on pay to keep rather than pay to cut the trees before that my name is Garland I'm from the World Resources Institute Indonesia so I'm asking what kind of mechanism are you going to propose for this idea it's an interesting idea but you need to put into account the potential loss from these countries who have the trees when they are forced to keep the trees in compensation of money what I'm talking about really is maintaining intact natural forests so I'm not saying that people that live in the forest are able to do what they've traditionally done there obviously the forest is still intact whatever's been going on has been fine and I would hope that the benefits of paying to maintain that environment and that livelihood and lifestyle that has persisted to date would actually flow to those communities that's the sort of thing that I'm thinking of and I think that's the sort of thing that when people in developed countries think about this problem and want to deliver some money somehow via their government or however it happens to try and help out by keeping these ecosystems that's the sort of thing they're thinking of I do understand issues around fear of dispossession and that this is another form of commodification in a sense it is commodification but if it's done with the right sort of process and that thought process about maintaining what has historically been that's work that's the thing and there will be a lot more of that in the session so thank you very much panellists a big cheer of applause for them thank you very much distinguished guests and ladies and gentlemen super answers thank you very much we still have a very exciting program ahead of us we've got two lunchtime events taking place downstairs on the fire and haze and another one on the future of forestry research and education for those wanting to attend those events