 There is a key question that can actually answer surface guidance. It's not what the future will look like, you know, the WTF question, what's the future? But it's actually, how do we want to live? How do we want to live, you know, with each other and the planet? And this is kind of like, it's an opening question because it makes us game changers. We can shape our future and we have to do it responsibly. Dr. Thomas Yuli is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas, brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine. The spirit of human business, how to rediscover our human being to shape our future. Right here in my hands, big and yellow, one of my favorite colors. And I got the copy not too many days ago, I actually got it before Thomas. And I'm so excited to be here again with my good friend Thomas to talk about this book. Thomas is a human business architect, co-creator and coach for Agile Project and business transformation with more than 25 years of experience in various industries and companies. He is the founder, business leader and trustee of Motivate2B, a collective for leaders, teams and entire organizations with the common goal of making business and their companies more human and sustainable. In 2020, he joined Alliance as an executive to help us transformation into an Agile organization and onwards into human business. His first book, Leadership Principles for Project Success was published in 2011 by CRC Press, New York City. He holds a PhD in international studies from the University of Miami in the United States and a master of arts in economics from Washington University in St. Louis in the United States where he was a student of Nobel laureate Douglas C. North. His company is called Obviously Motivate2B and I'm so glad to have you here, Thomas. It's good to see you. How are you brother? Well, I'm doing great. I'm really happy and delighted to be back on your podcast. Well, we talk in between. I have to apologize that it's a lot of what's up back and forth. You and I are both busy. We have so many things going on but one thing I love about you is that you know how to always stay in touch and you're good at nudging me and making sure that I'm in alignment and that we align on many things. I recently reached out to you and we had a call because we're discussing kind of our game plan for the beginning of next year, hopefully for the World Economic Forum and the Davos Tour and we had a nice dialogue. Since then, it's still up in the air, still turmoil. Is it gonna happen? Is it not gonna happen? The open forum is definitely closed but at that time you helped me immensely. It was right before I was getting ready to go to speak at Blockchance here in Hamburg at the Parliament building about future emerging technologies, not just cryptocurrencies but blockchain and how we can use emerging technologies in our life. And I asked you a question and you gave me a wonderful answer but I'm gonna ask it to you again to see if it has changed right out of the get go as we start our conversations today because I think it's so important especially important with your book and so I wanna ask you what models are you operating on in a personal and business or work life? So in your personal life, I'm sure you have a model whether it's an economic model or a model that you operate under and then in your business or work life not only motivate to be but for alliance you have maybe a different model that you operate on and I wanna ask what are those models? Are they aligned and are they going in the same direction and how do you juggle that? Yeah, well, that's an excellent question and it is a difficult one because the question is like if there is only one model or if there's something different or mix or hybrid honestly, I think where I've come from because I've worked in a project and program management for so many years people would say it's more a mechanical problem maybe even tenderistic in nature the last couple of years definitely since I started writing the book it's what I call a human business model and it's like I try to walk my own talk it's like rediscovery myself and trying to create the space for myself as well as for others and so therefore it's not something artificial but it's something it's more it's within us you can say that's like it's a human being I shouldn't sound esoteric because it's not because it's all about us so I'm trying to bring this into my daily life which is a challenge and it's also to my professional life and that too is a challenge because like again, because we have function we can I guess that we can I can say and the mechanical tenderistic world for so many decades it's sometimes difficult to break out and to be more authentic and discovering who we are what really matters and especially in terms of crises so this is like what I'm working on this is like my North Star and I wouldn't dare call myself an expert I'm exploring and that's the wonderful part of it Joe, would you call that exploring almost like an evolution in life? It's an evolution I think it has to do something with maturing has to do something with growth and now when I reflect on my life I'm 53 years old I wish I had known this like quite a few things much, much earlier starting with vulnerability and acknowledged my own emotions and day life and then business and when I'm speaking with my kids I mean they're already 18 and 20 years old I think they're more mature than I am and sometimes because they ask me provocative questions and that make me think and reflect what I'm after I love that so the last time we had a recording or you were on the podcast that was about the book in German it was a human business in German and I asked you I believe I asked you on the podcast it says when's it coming out in English and luckily I mean we've had this hellacious crazy time and you write about it in the book about the COVID and the lockdown and all the craziness on work and what we've experienced wasn't a blessing to have this time and even though you've still worked the world hasn't stopped for you to have that time to work on the book to get it out in English and also make some updates and revisions and a few changes I'll tell you and just compare for those viewers who are not listening only on audio and looking at this are you telling me that German into English turns into biblical terms or did you add that much more? Well there is some, I added a few things there's also wonderful forward by Steve Denning and I think it's kind of like a highlight you can say if people don't have time to read the forward I think they really can get a lot out of it and then probably afterwards they want to read the book the layout is different and it allowed me, the publisher allowed me to stress the real key points and also to show them what to say more graphically and it's easier to read and I think the content by itself you can say it's the same there are some nuances that changes some updates but it's and yet it feels completely different at least to me it feels different as it is as if the energy is different and it is different. I'll tell you that right now so I've read it so not only is data not so much German data it's a two case studies that are different and data from more from the US kind of a market not so much German data but it has that different feel and normally this is unusual because when you translate German into English it would be less words but if you try to put something in English into German you're like, boy Germans have like 15 more words to describe the same one or two English words there's this whole sentence you know I mean Germans are famous for these long run on sentences or these, you know, I leg in a boy makes a huge, huge words and so it's amazing but it is so great to read it's beautiful, it's there so I thank you for that but I mean, I just want to say definitely it is it is a different feel it's not any, not, it's better it's not saying the first one was bad but now you've got a whole new world of opportunities No, it's kind of like it was an inner calling to actually translate it and I translated it I think I think it was earlier this year in January or so and I did and then I was actually curious like if I can find a US publisher or an English publisher and I thought probably they will say, oh gosh, no it's like we have to copy edit everything but they were quite pleased, change a little bit but it was just like translating and editing it was as if I had, as if I was writing it again had a different feel to it and when the German title of human business it just was just human business and to me it was like it was always something missing so I changed to the spirit of human business because when you just talk about human business the paradigm, the model I'm describing in the book that's one thing, but there's more to it and that's the spirit that's just like really about the rediscovering our own humanity and then translating or applying it to or a daily life to our business and then or thus you maybe revolutionizing business and the world. Hi, I'm totally in agreement with you there are a few other things that somber honestly and that I wanna touch upon. So in the book, you do a pizza call every so often you've also interviewed a lot of people for this work and kind of the pizza calls me is kind of about the time you would take to eat a pizza and calling you call up and meet with these people who you consult with, who you speak with some are my friends, some I don't even know yet Yulia von Winterfell, Kim Pullman and many others that you've kind of went through and had in the book. One of them that you write about pretty much in the beginning is John Nesbitt and he actually passed away he was rather up there in the age group anyway and I had his wife, Doris Nesbitt on the show on a podcast and he actually passed away during the COVID but the reason I bring it up is this was a hellacious time and it still is turning out to be in many respects for all of us and this book and that's why I'm so glad it's in English is more important than ever not only did you write about it you talk about the case studies and you talk about how do we humanize business how do we make it more humane in the future and many other things that we'll discuss throughout this call but now we've those who didn't know this before have really truly experienced that and they're searching they're looking for to make sense of a lot of this so sense making and things and they're also understanding when we spoke before about this metamorphosis this traditional transition to human business in all of this that you mentioned VUCA and I want you kind of to tell us about that I want you to say so why do you think this is more important than ever and what have you experienced by those who've now gotten the book in English and been through this horrific time what are they saying to you about the future of business about their world? Well, that's a you know it's like a very universal question you can say and let's put it this way my experience at Alliance I've been with the corporation up for 18 months great time and people asked me actually Steve Denning asked me why would you go to such a big corporation? I said like well, when you work on your own you can only influence so many individuals but working within a corporation an international corporation such as Alliance is completely different and what I've been observing is that even in large corporations things are changing yes, you still have traditional business they just focus on shareholder value et cetera but it's like more and more companies realize it's not enough because you have to work for talents it's like it's become more and more difficult to attract young talents, highly skilled workers and then you know that you wanna retain them and they just don't, they did what more than just a job they want something they can identify with they wanna have, they wanna work for something bigger, something grander they would like to, they asking questions about what's the purpose of the company and if the purpose of a company so we just wanna maximize profits the question is like, okay what good does it do to the customer? How can it help me besides they got the paycheck? They would like to say, let's say if they there was, what was it? I think it was Zappo or so and then hook on Zappo and then they asked like would you be willing to get a tattoo with the company logo and kind of like do you identify with the company? Well, I wouldn't get a tattoo with Alianza so maybe motivate to be but this gives you an idea like how far, how much do you identify with the company what it's the business it's in and what good or bad it does and in working with so many people within the Alianza and also outside they talk about what makes work special and that's the human experience it's the interacting, it's the co-creation the collaboration this makes all the difference and people say, if I'm still treating as just a resource I don't wanna be resource because I don't wanna keep competing with computers I have so much more to offer I'm creative I just wanna have fun with other people joy and you can do quite a few things virtually then the other day we had like that was before the latest lockdown we had a workshop in person and it was a creative workshop and it was like we were just blown away but how much we get all the ideas so people appreciate the human interaction much more than prior to COVID to the pandemic and this is also reflecting the business more and more it takes a while but you can see it in daily business and daily work on the outside that's sometimes a different a chapter but I'm looking from the inside what happens within a company and I can see a changing spirit for the better You also referred to me who was also on the podcast Richard Sheridan I was connected to Kim Pullman before but she was also on the podcast Tony Shea who you just mentioned he passed away last 2020 and Thanksgiving time November so we've lost some people in there spent some pretty chaotic things that have happened and occurred and people are at this stage of reevaluation of their lives the models that they live how they work where they work and what are they willing to give in to if they work for a big corporation what are they willing to do and give in what are the products look like what are their services what is their time at these organizations look like and that's exactly what you've brought up and talked about it takes effort it takes discipline and you've mentioned this before and you mentioned it in the beginning of the book you mentioned VUCA why do you mention VUCA? What why and why does it take discipline? Why do you also mention the butterfly effect which comes it comes from many out there speaking about but Kim Pullman as well talks about this metamorphosis and this transition tell us about that why is that important and how does that relate to this period of time? Yeah, the VUCA that we live in a volatile uncertain complex and ambiguous world where we don't know what's going to happen in a year or so because there is so much uncertainty there is so much complexity so we are overwhelmed in the workplace and actually business is awesome and you can have a strategy but who knows what's going to happen? I mean, internationally, politically it's like we just don't know so the question like what is it we need a new compass we need a new North Star what is it? Is it just like so maximizing profits satisfying shareholder needs and our expectations or what is it beyond? And if you just like use the old tools and approaches that actually have some cost some of this uncertainty it would be kind of like an oxymoron it's just like wouldn't work why would you use the same tools to solve something and the tools actually create the problem it's just like it just doesn't make sense so the question is like where do we start? And the question is like why are we in business in the first place? What do we really need? It's not shareholders but we do need our customers so it starts with a customer it's not enough to satisfy customers due to the competition you have to delight the customer if you want to delight the customer you have to understand the needs of a customer so it's not just superficial but also on a deeper meat and maybe not just like the existing customers but you want to look beyond because the market is changing maybe you can identify non-customers customers that we don't have haven't attracted yet but we see what their needs are and then build products and services and that's one thing so we want to generate value for the customer because otherwise they're not going to buy anything but the question then is who is generating the value? And it's not the shareholders but it's the employees so it's interestingly we talk about product and process innovation and not too many people or not too many companies talk about people innovation because it's the people who actually innovate not the product and processes so we actually start with people innovation so therefore the purpose also of a company is not just to generate value for the customers but actually also to generate value for the employees because otherwise they wouldn't stay with the company and this is not that you just give them lots of money but you want to give them something like a work environment they feel secure where they can unfold their potential where they can experience joy and they learn and yes of course look at their productivity etc but the question is what kind of environment you need when you generate value for the customer and the employee the outcome is basically value for the business and it's not an art it's not doesn't happen automatically I mean you still have to look into you know cost structures etc but it's often it's just a result of the first second you know factors of said delighting customers and building a happy workplace so this is like you have the three pillars customer employee and the business and you have to look at it holistically and this is basically also what I've been observing at very innovative progressive companies and this is also what I've been you know introducing now with with an alliance and it's quite promising what I can see so not only you have been coming out with new books and really doubling down on how we can not not I definitely not go back to the to normal or even the new normal that we realize the long-term value of of how we do business and how we make that humane and you mentioned it that in the beginning is that that's not only we not want to go back to this new normal but that we're at this most volatile time in the book you you make a statement let us kill HR and yes that was that was this summer I have wrote an article on on LinkedIn let's kill HR and it's so true let's kill human resources we don't need HR because we're not a human resource we're human beings and if HR treats people as resources cost factors it's missing what's all about it's against like it's supposed to be there for us to to help to assist and support the employees and not treat them as resource as things as as products and and I'm saying well it's not about human resources it's actually more about human recognition and Dave Ulrich he he replied is like well yes it is what human recognition it's not it's not about resources but we still have the term I I think that still the term HR is like so outdated there was a program at again also the alliance they had said it says agile at HR and I said like you have to change this as an oxymoron agile and human resources agile is telling us there are no human resource there are people so we changed the program to and now it's called agile at people it makes all the difference because people know right away it's for the people so just like making these small changes can have it's it's a signal it's a message and you know it starts with a message of course you have to walk to talk but it starts right there before I kind of get into some of the I want to touch upon some of the other reads that have come out during this time same thing on humane business and how how we're going to do it we're talking about metaverse we're talking about these emerging technologies these new worlds new ways of going into work before I do that I want to kind of touch again on Kim Pullman shortly she set the tone and you helped set the tone in the beginning of the book for a pretty good way into the book with this golden rule and this imaginal cell is the book that she wrote and this this transformation through this metamorphosis why why is that important this metamorphosis this change this transformation is that where we're at as humanity why discuss that is that what we need why did you choose to bring that well I think discussion yes and metamorphosis so much more than transformation and then transformation it's like when people think okay it's a change you can plan you just like move one step to the next and there's a big project plan everything just fine with a metamorphosis when you when the caterpillar turns into cocoon it's like it's everything turns into you can say mush it's like it dissolves it's like completely dissolves so you still have the cells but then you have the say the dna cells of I don't know if there's a dna cell but it's called the dna cell the imaginal cells of the future butterfly and the old cells of the caterpillar think oh this is the end of the world they are the enemies that they're trying to kill it and but the imaginal cells they build a network they connect and at the end of the day this network is stronger and more powerful than the old cells and the butterfly can emerge for a caterpillar this metamorphosis is the end of life for the butterfly it's just the beginning when you go to a company to a business that is undergoing these changes in the in the so-called buca world it's it's like a metamorphosis you have to be willing to dissolve old structures and discover and explore what wants to be emerged and this is it takes courage takes experimentation you know it's like because you don't know what works best you know in the book I'm talking about agile as a door opener but you know and as a matter of fact I don't think there are lots of alternatives because you explore and and iterative and incremental fashion and just like one step at a time and in a metamorphosis it's pretty much the same things like we don't know exactly what the butterfly looks like you know it could be must could be beautiful butterfly maybe it's like a tiny butterfly who knows but also think about this once you have the butterfly people say yeah but a butterfly doesn't last forever well just similar to caterpillar but there's one thing the butterfly can fly you see things from a different perspectives you can go to different places where you know caterpillar would never have been be able to go there and it's a completely different life so the purpose of of a caterpillar is not to eat eat eat but eventually to turn into a butterfly and I think that for business why are we in business in the first place to generate value for people and we do this not three resources but by people and so the purpose of a business of modern business is human business. So last time we spoke on the podcast we actually talked about the Center for Humane Technology from Tristan Harris and the movie Social Dilemma that was kind of coming up and kind of the the direction of that is is we're worried about bunch of things so we're worried about the stealing of our identity our data as being sold off that the world's going in this direction that is making us less humane in some some directions and but also advancing technology in many different ways and that you know whether we're talking about Cambridge analytics or if we're talking about social dilemma or all the craziness that happens there's some pretty negative aspects of that where the direction on some of those things has taken us in the wrong way and what I see from you from your your book and from what you write about and those examples that that are in your book that the direction needs to be this different model that's why I asked you those questions in the beginning what are the models that you're functioning on how how if we if we have those models we push them out into the future and depending on how that is that is where we're going to be in the future those are the models we're operating now to to reach a certain goal and in your book you you use these case studies not only did you interview and talk to a lot of people but you have these case studies why do we need the case studies why are they there give us the examples of of why you do that and why you include that is that what we need we need to know that this happened in in in history or or why as human humans or why in books why do we always give case studies or examples why is that important I think we need we need role models to learn from and in history we have learned through stories you know basically can say case studies but I think the story is it's it's you know it's a story you can say it's a story and a story telling and that makes all the difference it puts things into perspective and it's much easier to resonate with a story rather than say just numbers numbers it's just like that metrics but if you know okay this these are real people they experience this and they have they have experienced these these changes it's completely different you can actually contact them say hey you know tell us about your personal experience what were the challenges how did you overcome these challenges that you have some some advice and this is like again it puts things into perspective see when I when you compare say German and American business books a management books the German book is like 80 content and 20 stories it's difficult to read and the US it's just like the other way around you have 80 stories concrete examples and then 20 facts I think stories can they they stick you know and you know a number is a number again it's like but do you tell when you have like when you have kids you give them a number or give them an example and it's easier to recall it's easier to remember say when you say it was three or four years ago when I was in Davos and of course I knew about the refugees in Syria etc but it was not after after I went to the Facebook pavilion and they had this this the Oculus um um what is what's it called quest yes quest and it was like a day in the life of a refugee and she was 12 years old and she's she told the story and you could actually see where she she lived with her family in the tent etc this was only personal story one you know one just one life and watching this and experiencing this um made me change my perspective on the whole refugee crisis um if you say well there are 100 people 100 you know kids died last year or last week okay that's one thing it's just a number but what if your best friend was killed in that accident would you still say well just like one person was was killed you know it was not too bad yeah but it was your best friend there is you know there's a face to it there is um it's uh it's completely different and that's why it's important to have these you know case studies these stories in there and um there is this one company metal finance uh it's it's kind of like consulting in the financial industry and people wouldn't expect like such a company to be a human business but it is it has become a human business actually in record time within a very very short time because it realize we have to be well we have to be competitive we want to you know keep the best talents and we want to really make a difference and uh it's quite fascinating to read about the story how the basic turn around its business and has become a role model in the industry there um there was another book and I think you've mentioned this in in uh the references or somewhere in the book I recall seeing it from John P. Streliki the Big Five for Life the first book was fabulous but he wrote a second one called the Big Five for Life continued that was on a specific company that did they basically did a payroll and and they they created the systems for um payroll systems to be able to pay nurses and doctors through different shifts and and sounds pretty honestly just pretty darn boring right they were the most advanced greatest place to work for their Canadian company in the world because they shift their model to one of human centered uh focus to one that caring about a purpose for existence which was a purpose for existence for the corporation or the organization and how they run their business and putting value in humanity and in human beings and actually putting faces and names behind um who they work with and what what that greater purpose is and so I love those examples but now I'm on the I I'm leading you I'm sorry but you know I do this I'm leading you down a pathway of deeper dialogue and discussion for our listeners because it's so vital I also believe those stories are necessary I also believe that history based on case studies or past experiences is absolutely vital but this goes back to the the the first question I ask you what model are you operating on and I want I want to go not too far back in history and and tell you that there are more than 20 civilization frameworks that we've had on our planet early antiquity Mesopotamia Incas Aztecs Mayas the Greeks the Romans these were all civilization frameworks models structures for how humans kind of have infrastructure and organize and how their city life looked like that are no longer here today these models the structures for living are no longer here and all but two of them are not here because they collapsed because of an ecological or environmental collapse and to just to make it easy and to simplify it that's food and infrastructure those are the basic needs of humanity that that's that type of collapse and the other two collapse because of conflict or displacement collapse so they had a conflict or they were displaced collapse but they're no longer here now the reason I bring this up you said what the hell does this past story or history big history that's what it is it's big history now have to do with what we're talking about now and and this is where I throw the ranch in one it's big history and I hope your kids learned it I know for a fact that I did not learn it and I did not learn it the way I'm presenting it to you or in depth what it truly means about I learned about the Greeks and the Romans and and the Incas and the Aztecs but in a much different way didn't truly understand what it meant and and then as an adult and maybe you have done this as well you go to these places where the ruins are the coliseum the Parthenon or whatever and you take a selfie your own vacation you take a selfie and and you post it on the internet but you don't really understand what it what it means what it is it's a story it's a case study and all all of those stories or those case studies or that big history they all operated on the same model and that's why I asked you that question they all operated on the same model and you know what that model was a hierarchy model they all had a hierarchy model where there was a ruler a king a nobleman or someone at the top and then they had this pyramid and at the bottom where the slaves the laborers the farmers the the people who did all the work and built the infrastructure and there's so many different experiences whether it's ancient china whether it's current china whether it's the ink is Aztecs or Mayas whether it's the pharaohs all of them had this hierarchy structure and when we talk about business we talk about metamorphosis we talk about circular economy we talk about regeneration we talk about different business models that have a different structure where everybody has an input there's no buddy there's no division of class so to say and so to throw the ranch in do those stories those case studies really help because we've continued in history we've proven that we're not listening we just went when we get in an economic bubble when we come close to collapse we just do a bailout and then we go right back to the same model that we had before and so is that really what we need to make a shift to give us the humane business to get us for and how how does that apply i know that's pretty far out there and i'm pulling but it's not it's really not i want how do we get back to humane how do we build those infrastructures to get us get us into the future that we want that we're both working towards what i think actually even in nature you can have a hierarchy however it's not static it's adaptive it's flexible and that is the key you can still have a hierarchy in the business but needs to be adaptive given the depending on the situation so it can change from one situation to the next in a team setting you have you can have like a circular because it's circular hierarchy you know if there's something like this you have certain rules responsibilities then they change depending on what the challenges are so i still believe people need some form of structure some form orientation and some people need a hierarchy but it has to be adaptive it has to be adaptive to the needs and to the circumstances if that's the case you can evolve if you if it's static if it's bureaucratic it tries to to keep and to save the security the the status quo but the status quo is just like it's right now in the moment you don't know what's going to happen tomorrow and in the VUCA world it's forget it's a dead end so therefore you know bureaucracies okay if you live in a if you function of you if you do business in an environment which does not change go for it bureaucracy just works fine it's like efficiency what have you however whenever you want to be innovative it just doesn't work you need to have you know it's kind of like a structure and certain rules that help you actually become innovative the structure is such as like you know structure is not a bureaucracy an example is like the ABC the alphabet you have certain rules you know how you coin words and you have grammar and then you communicate or you have the the musical notes eight musical notes and half tones and you have the rhythm you can make music or you have the three colors and what have you this is structure and then you have certain rules how you put everything together but we do need much more the more complicated the more complex the structures the less of an orientation they provide and therefore it becomes complicated to learn them so kids learn best well what kind of structure they have they need a sense of security and they just explore they're curious so they just want to go for it natural discoveries you can say and whenever we have structures in place that impede us from this you know explorer explorer inside it's I don't know it's just like holds us back we cannot progress we cannot mature um so therefore I think the model again what we need is it's it's a human model now and then we look at it's like if you look at some of the the the hierarchies that that that didn't make it you know they didn't last very long why because they were static and the thing is is all of the high all of the the ones that collapsed all those that are not here anymore they all had the same hierarchy model they weren't they didn't they they all had that same model and they all collapsed and I believe there's there's an updated or or even kind of different way of looking at it it's not only that did they all collapse because of that model whether it was a dictatorship or you know a communist or fascist or whatever it comes to something even closer and that was kind of misunderstood and I'd like to get your feelings on this because this ties to the humane factor to the human factor if we go to you probably heard of the terms neoliberalism or neodarwinism it's basically a concept that means you know natural selection only the strong survives survival of the fittest severe competition which we see in organizations and businesses and models all around my religion's better than your religion my religion's the only true religion there's all there's all it's this games theory where there's only one winner so win and a lose situation instead of a win-win situation and most of the time it's a lose-lose situation but that's not the way our world works and so you've heard me mention the terms regeneration before as a model or symbiosis and even in your book you you mentioned the terms chaos complex that these are systems that are pretty complex that that we have to think of that are hard to to wrap our our minds around but that's not the way the world works not the chaos not the complexity that that's definitely in our world but this natural selection survival of the fittest the human condition that we've been led to believe that only the strong survive that was kind of a misrepresentation of Darwin which has to do with with human beings the way our world does work is through symbiosis through regeneration that we work in cooperation with everything else on our planet all other species that we crawled out of the primordial soup of this earth that we are an integral part of all all of humanity all other species and our planet and that the only way we're going to go far the only way we're going to fix a lot of the problems we have especially as an organization which is just a sub level of organism we're an organism in this big organism Carl Sagan said it best there's this new collective consciousness emerging that sees the world the earth as a single organism and an organism divided amongst itself is doomed and so the reason I say that how do we how do we use that thinking or shift that thinking in a paradigm shift for humanity to realize that the structure isn't hierarchy that the structure is tied to collapse and it's something that we've been continuing to repeat and you deal with that more than anything and so I guess more than anything is my question is regarding your book haven't you run across that that the organization model is so vital on how it's structured if it's a if it's a company that's got a limit to growth or will experience these times in the future whether it's it's far or short term where they're going to hit a bubble or collapse themselves because it's the wrong model it's not a humane model it's not a regenerative model well I think Darwin maybe he was he was right when he said like when you talk about survival of the fittest but the fittest was not unnecessary the strongest but those you know creatures you know that actually could adapt the best to changing environment so it's about adaptive and you know behavior that makes all the difference so that's the fit behavior so therefore we need to have an organization that is open for you know adapting to changing circumstances so say and that's why I think there is you know agile is has has an advantage because you work in you know iterations you know in increments and then every after each iteration you reflect what have we learned how can we come how can we become better this continue self-improvement and it's like doesn't always have to be faster and stronger but just like you reflect and you're willing to let go of all patterns just because you have sunk costs does not mean that you maybe there comes a point where you have to give it up after all and this is like where people say no we can't do this we haven't invested so much money yes fine but if we find out it's not useful anymore why do you want to continue building it so go on go ahead and go to the open the next chapter and see what you can do so organizations need to need to be adapted need to be flexible they have to be flexible means they have to be can say faster and just because like let's say when companies they know with the pandemic they built these you know huge buildings office buildings and now they they realize I want people are working from home we don't need these office buildings anymore and who do we know what do we know what the office of the future will look like you know how many people actually will actually come to work or is it just that you work from wherever you are and how will it change the way that we work together at all but then on the other hand we also know that working together with the human interaction it is very special you know virtually you can do a lot of things virtually but there is it's not a substitute for a real interaction so what kind of company do you want to build that actually accommodate this as well and you know the corporation I'm working right now this this is like some of the discussions we have and I'm asking sometimes like why do you what I mean you want some people they say okay tell me what the office would look like in five years and I tell them this like I don't know well we have to let you have to let us know right now it's like well okay build in a way that we can change it within two weeks well we can't do this I say what what do you expect me to tell you so like maybe there's another pandemic maybe it's like maybe we're a completely different business so do we know what what the world will look like in five years no the same applies to your office buildings etc and the other thing you what you mentioned is like collaboration co-creation that we're not well yes we're individuals but we're not isolated individuals we're you know social beings and it's not just about the human interactions we live in environments so we look at society and the the the natural environment so that's why the golden rules adapted to say treat the other and the planet the way you want to be treated we always have to look at the whole picture and the planet we're part of the planet but just like pieces of it but we have to look at the overall picture and we have to be have to say more conscious about what we're doing and what the side effects is not just about that impact us but maybe the next generation and the next seven generations after we always you know we have a responsibility for it and if we do this I believe and kind of like not just be overly cautious because we make mistakes I think it's a it's a better environment you know and this is something it's completely contrast to the static bureaucracy and what I'm saying is like those companies those businesses and actually also those societies or you know that are more open for this kind of change that embrace change rather than just like opposing it they have a better future they will strive more in the future I absolutely agree with you I also want to throw in some wrenches there because there's a couple things that I do think we know and we we tend to we tend to fool ourselves into thinking that we don't know we we know very well what the future can be what it needs to be and where it needs to go and so you know from from your book and from your work that you want to do that you want to have a more humane business a more humane future definitive that that that's the model and that's where you want to go well there is a set roadmap a plan of action then there's things to do to make sure that we have that future and I know this is kind of a this is kind of a crazy example but it's it's fitting and I can give you others if you don't like it when John F. Kennedy almost 61 years ago stood in front of congress and and in the United States and I hate to give us as the example but he didn't have the technology the computing power and all the science that he needed to put a man on the moon well it didn't exist there was bits and pieces but the majority of it didn't exist he had then before the decade was out was his his famous speech as he says before this decade is out 10 years is a decade to put a man on the moon and he did it and a lot of that technology was then put into place I have seen cities of the future Songdo Korea was supposed to be a city of the future Fintorn Eden I could go on and on these cities of the future these cities of new forms of living in the future in order to build those up in order to get there to that point in time there's a there's a star map there's a navigation there's a plan of action of what we need to do to get there I can and I want to break it down to something here today and this is what I want I know you've included in your book and I want to see more of but I also want to see more discussion of this from you and others is our our world is growing around us exponentially good bad and ugly but us as homo sapiens are on this very linear siloed kind of slow path we're not keeping up with our exponentially growing world and the example is just on today the preschool kindergarten and elementary school kids that would need to start school when school starts again or today in December 10th we would need to be building 63,000 new classrooms every single week just to keep up with the amount of classrooms we need to teach those those kindergarten preschool and first graders around the world today in one month we built less than 100 classrooms yeah so we're well behind on the infrastructure no matter how technically advanced no matter how we are we're extremely far behind and that was just an example for that population today I didn't talk about hospitals or many other roads or you know are we building roads because the future is going to be full of cars what what is that future and how are we setting up that our model is one that doesn't collapse as well because we invested in stranded assets or we invested or we built our infrastructures in the wrong thing and in your book you talk about these stranded assets you talk about those things that we need to do to make sure we know what that future is and that that's that's what I but we need to be talking about I'm not saying oh I still got to have my job and so I've got to be careful what I say so otherwise they're going to the shareholders are going to get mad at me you know and so that's kind of what I wanted a little bit to know some more from you well I'm not a John of Kennedy but you know the vision I'm describing in my book is like that me personally I want to help contribute to establishing human business as the new global norm by the year 2030 do I know do I have like a like a master plan how to get there no do we have some ideas what I'm going to do next yes you know and I'm I'm a fan of of projects little steps and you know connecting them building networks just like the imaginal one step at a time explore and learn from each other and there is a key question that can actually as a surface of guidance it's not what the future will look like you know the WTF question what's the future but it's actually how do we want to live how do we want to live you know with each other and the planet and this is kind of like it's an opening question because it's it makes us game changers we can shape our future and we have to do it responsibly you know we apply the golden rule this is what Kim Pullman talks about in the book it's not like egoistical and it's like you know short-term thinking no we have responsibility for this this generation and the next and the one after and again we shouldn't do cautious you know we shouldn't do it over cautiously but you know explore and use common sense and I think we should encourage especially the younger generation not to be well to keep their curiosity and ask questions and try different things and they should not get stuck in this like we have to do certain things you know these are the goals like you know you have to meet expectations you have functional resources okay fine there there are some adventures to it no doubt but let's not give up our cure you know natural sense of curiosity that we want to explore new things try new things and learn from it and we learn through playing through mistakes so if you're afraid of making mistakes okay don't try to be innovative you know this is the normal thing and therefore this is something I believe we have to encourage the younger generation go out there play explore act responsibly and talking about acting responsibly we have to act responsibly and maybe and it starts with listening to acknowledging their strength their weaknesses and just go from there absolutely love it you you discuss and we've had this discussion privately as well but the importance that boys don't cry men do and it really it really is about vulnerability and and so I'd like to talk about that as well and why why that plays such a why is that it's almost like a compass for human beings that vulnerability that's yeah when people ask me and say why this book is different I like to cite that that chapter about you know boys don't cry men do maybe it's because like the last 12 months or so I've been exploring more and more about you know this very aspect of my own human being and where I had to admit that yes me too I was raised as a kind of like a functional resource I'm trying to optimize things and you know I'm very competitive but I'm missing out so much you know and interacting and actually about myself and it starts with emotions and kind of like well it's good to have like a bright mind and and plan everything but you know we have you know we have three brains why do we only want to use this one here in the head we have the heart we have the gut you know intuition and uh bringing it all to the table I think makes can make all the difference and um it's it's a struggle let's put this way um and just acknowledging and practicing some how should I say self-compassion it's a huge challenge and um especially you know for guys no I'm in talking about mistakes no where we have where they say you know we're afraid of of the uh you know let's say some challenges like I have no I sometimes when I say you know I have no idea how to solve a problem at work and I talk openly about it and people are still sometimes stunned surprised that I talk about openly because I show some weaknesses but I'm first of all I'm trying to be honest authentic and maybe also somebody else maybe it can help but what kind of environment is it if it's like if I if I cannot talk about my fears and concerns and act and ask for advice and I believe that um especially guys we have a hard time because of because of our ego I guess you know false pride and um you know becoming softer is probably the hardest thing at least for me it is um and yet it's probably the most adventurous and most rewarding adventure most important you know journey there is and it's the journey and you know to the inside to you know what I'm talking about discovering exploring our human being and I just wish you know this is something I would have done much much earlier you already kind of uh tickled on it a few moments ago about the burning question um WTF it it's different this time but it's very similar it's the hardest question I have for you today um and I'm I know you've thought about it quite a bit and and you've been kind of you um reflecting upon it it's what does a world that works for everyone look like for you just for you what does a world that works for everyone look like for you well that's a tough one I got me that one um I'd like to have like a sense of sense of security uh comfort um and yet it's kind of like an environment where it can explore and make mistakes um and have some form of guidance and this guidance can be from the inside being protected and the best way to do this is like when I'm saying motivate to be okay starts with me when I'm just trying to be to fill a role it's not about the being and uh it's about not not necessarily about being authentic so I believe and this is my hope that in this process you know the next couple of years I can become more authentic more you can say human and thus being a better human to other people and this goes back to the golden rule treat the other person and apply the way I want to be treated but again it starts with me um like what when you when you're uh when you're boarding a plane you know and they say well in case no there is you know uh there is no pressure except you get the oxygen mask now first put on the oxygen oxygen mask before you help the other person think this is the same same thing um I have to learn to find the oxygen mask so I can help other people by walking my own talk and I admit this is a challenge um and I'm learning and um I'm happy and I'm relieved actually that I started this journey and I wish I would have started much earlier yeah that that's I hear that quite a bit that's almost another question I mean uh what would you have liked to know from the start it's you say that I wish I would have started sooner or known it sooner because I would have started yeah probably you know listen to you listen to your heart more often and not just like the you know to the head I mean there were so many decisions I made just from you know rational decisions ever and my heart told me something completely different and more intuition and in retrospect I knew it's like would have been much easier if I just had full of my heart and my my intuition not all the time but in those you know particular situations and so next time when I when I face a decision and I'm not sure what to do left or right and stuff I am trying to listen to my intuition to my heart and in most cases it's a better decision there there's some interesting things that are are really important um tied to to human business and to what your writings are and this um that I want to kind of talk to you about there more and more we're seeing this uh emerging of new consciousness a new way of looking at the world more shift towards the humane anyway towards this adaptive humane future and in in that shift some interesting things have happened so we've heard corporate social responsibility which is very old it's uh more than 10 years old it's 20 years old um and the social is the human factor in there now we hear environmental social governance esg and the social aspect is the the humane part of it um 25 years I think it's 27 years ago now John Elkington um came up with the triple bottom line uh John Elkington wrote the book uh green swans you know it's the opposite of black swans that we've we've heard of and he came up with people planet and profit the the triple bottom line and it's um was successful for 25 years and then in um and it might it might even be more than 27 years now but in 2018 he said after working on a project with the world business council for sustainable development that he's recalling and in the harbor business review that he's recalling the triple bottom line and organizations all over the world have really been using that and seeing fabulous results as an accounting principle the accounting principle that we had before that was 500 years old it was a single bottom line and the double bottom line which was developed by an old uh franciscan monk and um really didn't work at all it was a kind of really not the way the world works and then John Elkington came up with this and it worked very well and he's very famous for this triple bottom line but then he recalled it and the reason he recalled it was because he said the he was moving forward trying to move forward on some other projects and you see that and he realized that everyone was using this triple bottom line in the wrong way as an accounting principle that only touched on the profit part of it but totally neglected the the the planet and people oh yeah and that it was kind of this greenwashing and he says enough I'm recalling it we need to revamp it this is it's not work we're using it in this greenwashing way and it's just not effective we're taking the words in our mouth we're but it but it has no meaning to it and so he recalled it and now we're hearing so many things of companies and organizations doubling uh down on ESG and that it's a better model moving forward but the key to that model is is that all environment social and governance that they all have this balance of how we go in but the social part the human part of it which you discussed is such an vital part for us to move forward and so my question is with with not only green swans came out a few years ago and I'll touch upon a couple other books there's more and more wisdoms like this coming up on how we can set up those models how we can use supportive structures like your book to move forward how are you using that how are you suggesting we apply those into our life to make sure we help our organizations we help us personally to move into those futures that we want to see because there's some some very strong pushing and pulling going on from metaverses and these virtual worlds that could be good bad or ugly you know these that's how are you kind of addressing that let me let's go from the meta level maybe to the micro level and match up setting when you have a daily meeting like 15 minutes minutes meeting in the morning or sometimes during the day you ask the question like what have I accomplished yesterday what I'm about to do today and is there anything I need help with a couple of years ago I added the fourth question actually this you know we usually start the the meetings with that question and that is what will make me happy today what is it that makes me happy today or you can also say what am I grateful for and it doesn't have to be related to work could be anything and then you collect these happiness factors and you see the next day you guys have you achieved your happiness thingy or plan what have you and then you talk about it and after a while you have something you collect these ideas and you have like a what I call a happiness wall and you kind of like okay what kind of environment do we need to be happy to be joyful and does you create a more humane environment where you can be more creative you can be more innovative it's about collaboration co-creation and this can make all the difference and this cross question is it creates or opens like a human space or invites a human factor into the workplace it doesn't weigh anything doesn't cost anything it's very practical it's very simple just by asking what is it that makes me happy today and of course could be I'm just happy right now that's fine and then the question is like what does it help what does it take to sustain this happiness or how can I bring in more joy today what am I grateful for etc it's it's a very simple question and sometimes people are overwhelmed by it because they're just like oh I have to function I have to do this I have to do that no just slow down what is it that makes you happy today and I have had some you know I just can encourage you to start with this very simple question what is it that that makes the this day special um you can you can play with that question but you know bring in something which is not maybe necessary directly related to work which brings which allows you bring some of yourself and you can do this by yourself you can do this in the team and you can start today or tomorrow I love that there is more than now in any other time in history and I think it's just because we're moving faster and faster towards the future exponentially in many many different ways even during a pandemic it's unbelievable how fast the calendar moves how fast the time moves even though a lot of people have just been at home most of the time and I've heard numerous times I don't have time for that I'm busy I'm sorry you know you're working from the home office and and you don't you still don't have time whether things become more complex or hard the real question is with this dissatisfaction in our lives mainly around work that that we're experiencing and that this has gotten worse and is continuing to get worse so it's not getting better in many many respects although I've heard some great feedback that people are really enjoying the new visions of working from home how they've reconnected with family which is a which is a positive thing how knowing that how you're talking about the joys of that and that that it's higher than ever how do we how do we fix that how do we shift the paradigm so that that we enjoy our lives that those two polar opposites that the work-life balance is is aligned and that we're not saying I'm so unsatisfied with my job I don't want to see the people I work with I don't enjoy it and I need to find these nuggets and these moments of of joy in my day that those two worlds come together is there a way to do that is there some things that you're seeing that are improving that or is that getting further and further apart as we move in the future is that why people are quitting that's why they're not returning to the jobs that they they had before I think the verdict is a lot it's probably too too early to to to tell this is an ongoing discussion you know and various companies you know I don't have the simple right answer I'm afraid I think there are lots of advantages of working at home even though there are lots of you know professions that you know they they can work from home and it's a blessing actually for them I think it needs to be balanced I like to work you know really flexible and we know we're lucky that we can do this but they say when you're pharmacist for example you of course you have to go to the pharmacy or people work in infrastructure they they you know they have to go out or the doctors etc you know and so many other people on the front line the the the role of work is definitely changing I think we need to find a good balance the question though is in the digital let's say well right now we're used to working 40 hours a week okay if we say the new normal is 20 hours we would fill the 20 hours and probably be maybe even more productive you know what kind of how do we want to work and the question is like what are we going to do with the 20 hours which we have all of a sudden is that we don't know how to spend them with our family and friends what if we have to work 50 hours or 60 hours or maybe just 10 hours because like the machines are taking over all work and that does not mean that we we're out of work but we can become more creative and I think it would be said if we were overwhelmed by the opportunity of working only having to work 20 hours you know full full pay you know full salary but only 20 hours a week and then question okay what am I going to do with the remaining 20 hours so oh gee I have no idea how sad because if that's if this is like a risk want us to think about what we're going to do about how do we want to live what is it that we still want to do and maybe why not just do something for our planet for our society and give back and and think about the the next generation and exploring who we are reflecting on what our you know what other skills we have what other talents we have and see what we can do you know how we can better the the planet. I love that I have three three more questions left for you um and that that last one was probably the hardest because I think that in your book you really address how to to flip that paradigm from job dissatisfaction to being in a place working for yourself or working for some someone else when you feel it's human business and you're part of it you're not a number that that job dissatisfaction or that integral part of that organization or that organism where you're working towards really changes how you feel and see the world how you interact with what's going on in the world and that you play a part and it can it can make a big difference and I I highly recommend that everybody go out and read your book because the nuggets of wisdom are there how you can you can get to a better place how you can make business more humane if there was one message that you could depart to my listeners as a sustainable takeaway that has the power to change their life even two messages what would it be your messages that's a tough one you should have told me earlier I could have thought about it um um have the courage to break out of old patterns reflect and break out of all patterns and find out who you really are um don't try to play a role or meet other people's expectations and compromise your own inner truth and um there's those are way to choose more than two sentences I'm sorry no you're fine and the thing is like here's the thing next time you make a habit you have a difficult choice to make listen to your heart consciously listen to your heart turn off the brain and see what happens it could be a simple thing just like do I make a left or right turn you know or it could be something grander it's you know whatever but consciously make the decision okay next time I'm listening to my my heart and see what happens I love that and you know um we've talked many times and even on our previous recording podcast courage is a big big theme and factor in your life a lot of people don't know and I'm not revealing anything that's not available in your books or on your website but you're you like um nature the outdoors you like martial arts or you did martial arts for a while you like to ski you like winter sports you you're you're very active you're trying to be mindful and you've taken a lot of courageous steps in your life and and so I love that you share that uh your wisdom and your knowledge with us to say hey do the same you know it's work good for me and I would suggest that it works good for you as well give it a try um you've all already kind of answered this question before but I'm going to breviate again and that is what have you experienced or learned in your professional journey so far even though you're still on that journey that you would have loved to know from the start before you said I wish I would have started earlier I'd be much further along but is there anything else is there something it's okay to show weaknesses you don't have to be brave all the time it's okay to show weaknesses we don't have we don't have to be perfect and just try to be perfect it's like it's more enough an expression of lack of self-worth and don't try to be perfect it's it's like it's it's our imperfection that makes us special in showing weakness vulnerability can actually be strength and that's something I'm still struggling with quite often I admit and every time I consciously make the choice of showing a weakness in a given situation it surprises me again and again and the other person too but it's like and very very very seldom you know does the other person trying to kill me and criticize me but usually they're also surprised and they're willing to help and showing weaknesses can actually be strength. Bren Brown really talks about vulnerability and her TED talks and her books and really has been that and but you as well you've you've come out and said that several times why can I dive deeper why is it so hard for you to be vulnerable to be honest to to what why do you or why do you struggle with it why what what's the what why why are other people struggling with it why why is it hard is it because we believe the world needs to work a certain way or we expected it's well this goes back you know into very old childhood people wouldn't need that in two hours to go but I think it is as human beings we have we need kind of like comfort and need love and we look for this comfort and love and appreciation on the outside world and yes we can look outside but it's only superficial it's all within us and consciously I I understand this but often I still have to experience it and this is like in the like I said like in the middle of a journey but this is like yeah it's kind of like it has to do with self-love not egoism or anything but it's more self-compassion and so it's kind of like a silly when you say we're talking about the pursuit of happiness pursuit of happiness the happiness is within inside of us okay so what do you want to pursue happiness on the outside it's inside of us okay so we we just need to find way I mean how can we access it's already there and it's we have all the other stuff you know on top you know and other people's expectations but actually it's inside of us it's the simple things you can you can buy castles you can buy cars what have okay this is like superficial temporary pleasure and what have you but it's all inside of us and and this is like feeling experiencing this I think can be completely fulfilling and I'm trying to to explore and expand on it and looking for more advice and all people who can say well how can how we can expand on it even even more but I think this is a key making our life more more human you can say it's all inside of us and that's maybe that's the purpose of our life to actually acknowledge who we really are I love that and and we've talked about this before as well I think you've really surmised everything so nicely and hit the nail on the head the answer is already within us we've got to be able to listen we've got to be able to ask them for ourselves we I tend to say sometimes let's not be lazy and and expect that somebody else has done the work and asked the questions or found the answers for us let's dig into us and ask our questions of ourselves and the answers are there Thomas thank you so much for letting us all inside of your ideas the spirit of human business how to rediscover our human being to shape our future I love it it was a great read I'm glad I got my copy we're gonna I'm gonna have to get this one signed because it came right from your publishing company from you next time I see it but it's been a sure pleasure it's always great to see and thank you for taking the time to speak with us and that's all I have unless you have one final nugget to miss them to add that you missed well no thank you for the for the time the dialogue and the provocative thought-provoking questions I still have to think about tonight and next couple of days and I you know looking forward to our next dialogue on this next ideas exchange and looking forward to dialogue with all the listeners thank you so much I'm going to put the links where they can get the book and all your website and everything else so that they'll see it in the show notes and I look forward to talking to you soon thanks so much Thomas take care thank you bye bye