 Today, I'm going to be conducting a slightly different fireside chat. It won't be the traditional sort, where I'm sitting down with guests and doing a formal interview. This is going to be much more of a discussion. To give you some perspective, we are at the home of Peter Fisk in beautiful, sunny, warm Palm Springs, California. It's Sunday, March 19, 2017. My guests today are Billy Lane and of course Peter Fisk. We're going to be discussing the issues regarding FTM's in the gay male community. So I'll start off, Billy, and ask you, in the late 80s and early 90s, what was happening in the leather community to draw the fight for inclusion for FTM's in the gay male play spaces? Well, what happened in the late 80s and early 90s is there was a small handful of people that had been living and playing within the women's leather dyke community in San Francisco. And I was part of a small group of people that began transition to living as men. And as we transitioned, we were still players. And so the idea and apparently the conversation was happening. I first became aware of the conversation in 92, but there were men in the community who were like, okay, these were people that were players in the women's community. And now they're men. Where do they belong? And so that's where it all started. There was a small group of us, most of us who were still around and still playing, that didn't really belong in the women's community anymore. And there were some men that wanted to include us in the in gay male play spaces. So that's how it all really, really started, was a small group of players that were moving from one part of our community to another. Talk us through that a little bit. How was this playing out? Well, I can tell how it played out for me personally, because in 1992 I began my physical transition from female to male, but I also left San Francisco. So I started my transition and then I moved to Seattle. So the way that it was playing out nationally was that the premier event in 1992 was Inferno. That was the premier event for the players in the men's community. And there were men that were going to Inferno. Men like Tony de Blas and Joseph Bean and Guy Baldwin, who were starting to have discussions about having people that had formally belonged in the Leatherdike community at Inferno. And so how it played out for me personally was that I was in Chicago in 1992 in the company of Guy Baldwin and Joseph Bean. And they were talking about bringing me to the Hellfire Club that weekend and I literally had just started my transition. I mean, Peter knew me back then. I was very male in my appearance already and in my transition into being a man was very smooth. And so I was very new to this, but obviously from that evening and two of them talking, this conversation had been happening at least among a few of them for a while. And they didn't take me to the Hellfire Club that night. I don't know exactly why they decided against that, but that's when I first became aware that there was this idea that FTM should be included in these spaces. And people like me who had a reputation and skills that were obviously translatable whether you were playing with women or playing with men. So that's how I first became aware that it was going on. And it was obvious to me in that evening that there had been discussions about this already. Like, I wasn't the only one that they were talking about and I certainly wasn't. I mean, I may have been amongst some of the first because I still know a lot of the folks that were going through transition at the time. And there was more than one of us. There were several of us. And Peter was still in San Francisco at the time, so he may have known a little bit more about what was happening in San Francisco. But this was playing out on a national stage because the Hellfire Club, of course, is an international organization with members from all over the world. And like I said, in 1992 it was certainly the premier play event. Without doubt. And I know within that timeframe that there were men who had transitioned who were coming to 15 parties, although there was no policy. Even in the early and mid-90s, I brought some of them. Yeah, and I had already, by the time I started my transition, I had already moved to Seattle. So for me it wasn't really an issue of the 15, although I'm sure that, I mean, Peter and I were friends at that time. And I was certainly friends with other guys that were members of the 15. And I probably would have gone, but... There were no rules. It was if you fit, you came. Yeah, there was nothing. But there was a conversation that was happening, like I said, at a national level. And that's what I knew about it back in 1992. What details of these conversations can you share with us? What do you know about what was being said? You know, I mean, all I can share with you is what was...in 1992 was that one conversation when I was at... I was living in Leather in Chicago and I was, like I said, I was with Guy and Joe Bean was there. And they were talking about bringing me to the clubhouse for play. And I don't really recall. I mean, it was a long time ago. I was quite young. I'd known Joe Bean since 88 when I moved to San Francisco. So I knew Joe fairly well and I didn't know Guy that well at all. And I was...I wouldn't say I was intimidated, but I was definitely... I was kind of like...I basically felt like I was sitting there listening to two people talking about something that involved me, but I wasn't part of the conversation. It was a discussion they were having about whether or not it was appropriate to take me to the clubhouse. Wow. You know, and beyond that, I don't really recall any details. And then you really moved to 97 before anything basically happened? Yeah, well, yeah, 96, 97, something like that. So I don't know what else was going on because I was... When I moved to Seattle, I kind of, you know, I started doing this internal process and I was involved with the community in Seattle, but I wasn't really involved much with what else was going on. So that's really all I remember about that time, but I do recall that it was a conversation and it was definitely one of those conversations where you could tell that there were men, gay men in the community that were players that were having this conversation. And I knew a lot of the guys in San Francisco that had gone through transition and there were definitely players and I didn't belong in the women's community anymore. And, you know, where were we going to go to play at that level? You know, at a high level. When did this issue and how did this issue start becoming more personal to you? So as I mentioned, I lived in San Francisco in the late 80s and early 90s and had the good fortune to meet some really incredible members of our community. Peter and I became friends then. I became friendly with Joe Bean and Tony de Blas. And, you know, so these are people that I was friendly with and I was involved in the community at events. And, you know, so I was fairly well known and Tony lived in Portland at the time and I lived in Seattle and we would get together from time to time and he approached me in 96 about his idea was that the reason why there was this pushback from the male community about including FTM is that they really didn't know what an FTM was. And a lot of people at the time, when they transitioned, not specifically within the leather community, but in general, a lot of people would transition from living as one gender to living as another and just kind of like blending in. And, you know, and it's easier. I think that most people that have, you know, have some exposure to male to female and female to male testosterone. It's a powerful hormone and, you know, you get hair and you start to look male and you can kind of like float into your world. So Tony's idea was that once introduced, once Chicago Hellfire Club members were introduced to an FTM, by God they would understand it and they would open the doors and FTNs would be allowed to come to Inferno. And so he asked me, it's like, hey, will you come to IML with me and I want to introduce you to some guys in the club and tell them that you're FTM and that I want to bring you to Inferno. And, you know, I'm sure. So that sounds great. And I think that Tony and I were kind of like-minded at the idea and we had this idea that... Clueless how it would go down. No, we really thought that these are like intelligent people and once they understand the concept, of course they're going to welcome FTNs that are players to Inferno. And so in 97, I went to IML with Tony and he introduced me to a number of full members of the Chicago Hellfire Club. And Doug, when I tell you the difference in how they perceived me before he disclosed that I was FTM and after, it was like nothing I'd ever seen before. I mean, I was 33 years old. I was a personal trainer. Anybody that sees pictures of me in 1998, I was easy on the eyes. I was a top. So the initial... Very attractive. And the initial was like, oh, great, he's hot, great. I had one guy take a look at my hands, which are small, and asked me if I was into fisting. And then when he disclosed I was FTM, there was this mix of horror and hostility and then with some of the guys that were a little bit better at hiding their feelings, it's like this curtain would drop. And 1997 was the first year that Tony de Blas, the first and only time, I believe, that Tony did not go to Inferno because of the backlash and the response of the full members to his attempt to invite myself and other FTMs to the event. Tony was told you will not invite me. Who told him this? The club. The full members. We will not accept the invitation. You may not invite me. We have removed it. And he was very angry. He considered leaving the club and he did not go to Inferno that year. And I remember that because I went. I wrote a letter in support and I spoke to people and said there's no reason why men who have a transition can't come to men's events including Inferno. And they didn't get it at all and they were not happy and Tony refused to go and he considered leaving Hellfire over it. See, and I don't think Tony was terribly public about the fact that he wasn't going to Inferno. No, he wasn't. I think that my impression of this was that Tony was incredibly disappointed and deeply hurt by this response and other people that know Tony better than I did might know a little bit better like exactly what he was going through with that time. He was disappointed and that they felt the way they did and hurt. And he didn't want to be near them. And I know. You mentioned Tony being very hurt. What were your personal feelings? You know, I was surprised and I was hurt. I've always been fairly fortunate as far as being able to move into spaces and gain acceptance. When I moved to San Francisco in 1988 I found the leather community which welcomed me with open arms and as I transitioned and moved to Seattle the men of Seattle with the exception of a couple of assholes who shall remain nameless at this point in time. The guys in Seattle were terrific. I always kind of had a charbed life around that kind of thing. I knew a very resilient villain. But it hurt me too and I didn't understand it. But this is when Tony hatched the idea of me competing at IML. So Tony said, so Tony's idea was, well, we need to take this to a bigger stage. We need to expose more people to the idea of FTMs as part of the gay male community. Why don't you compete at IML? And Audrey Joseph had always tried to get me to compete for San Francisco Ms. Leather when I lived in San Francisco and I used to tell her when hell freezes over all one run for a title. So when I ran for Seattle Mr. Leather as my title to compete for before IML she called me up and left me a message that it must be colder in Seattle than she had thought. So Tony and I talked about it and we agreed that I would compete at IML. Tell them what the response from IML was. Oh, this was really. So after I won Seattle Mr. Leather Joe Bean, who I mentioned that I had been friends with who was living in Chicago at the time because he was running the Leather Archives and using it. He called me up and told me that he was going to talk to Chuck and this is legend, you know, as I know it. Although I've come to understand that maybe I don't really understand everything that was going on. But from what I understand Joseph called up Chuck and said there's this guy that just won a contest out in Seattle, you know, hot, you know, a Leather guy. And his history is that he's FTM and Chuck didn't care as long as I presented his mail and had mail ID. So that was kind of how I understood that that came to pass. The quote I heard, but I didn't hear it from Chuck at second hand, is he asked does this man have mail ID and was told yes. And said, well if the government accepts him as mail, there's no reason why. In Seattle, you know, when some of that stuff is... That may be true or not. And some of this is second and third hand and it's a long time ago too. But I do remember talking to Joe that night that I won my contest and Joe telling me that I was welcome to compete at IML. And you did compete, so that was the decision. So tell me a bit about competing at IML. How were you received among the other contestants the organization? God, I was scared but I think a lot of guys are scared when they compete for a wide variety of reasons. I wasn't really sure how I'd be received. I've been to IML the previous year and I've been there in 92 when Lenny won. So I didn't have a lot of exposure to IML and I was concerned that there may be that I was kind of setting myself up for a bad experience. And I tell you what, from the chief judge, Tom Dumkowski, who I met early on there and had a lifelong friendship until he passed away to the contestant handlers, I just, and the other contestants, I felt nothing but acceptance and welcome and I was basically just one of the guys for the weekend. I felt like I didn't feel treated differently at all. I didn't even have somebody come up to me and say, if you have any problems, please let us know. Who was the first FTM to compete at IML? We don't know. I mean, that's the thing is that, you know, is that, I mean, I got a message from somebody last night on Scruff who's like, I would have never known you were FTM and I'm like, you're looking at a picture of my face. Would you now? So it's like, we don't know. We don't know if somebody was FTM and has competed before. We don't know. We have no idea. We don't know if somebody was at Inferno before, you know, 92 or whatever. We don't know. There were intersex members of Hellfire, certainly. We do know that I was the first out FTM that competed in 98. There was a lot of discussion you depicted among a lot of the gay men, a lot of the players. As far as inclusivity with Hellfire Club, you went, you competed in IML, what continued on with Hellfire Club? Bring me to that. Tell me how that began to transpire. Well, I think that after I competed in 98, the men that were interested in inclusion continued to have the conversations. You know, I wasn't obviously a part of those because I was not a member of the Chicago Hellfire Club. I was not a part of those conversations. But the conversations, you know, continued to happen. And from what I understand happened is that there were some people that were open to inclusion. There were some people that wanted more education and more understanding. And then there were people that were completely opposed to any even discussions about including FTMs. At Chicago Hellfire Club events. Where did you find inclusivity? So yeah, so in 98, see, I met Michael Horowitz at IMSL, I think in 95 or 96, whenever it was in Philadelphia. And he and I, the minute we met, we instantly fell in love. We were very good friends to this day, very good friends. And in 98, Michael invited me to another run, which had started in 95 called Delta. And Delta was, there were a bunch of guys that were unhappy with Inferno that created Delta, which is basically another men's play event. And it was created by a lot of the guys from Inferno. So you can imagine that this is, that's still that high level of players. And so in September of 1998, after competing at IML, I went to my first Delta International. And I'm going to take my vest off right now, because this I want to show. This is what I want to show the people, the people like, I have been at Delta every year since 1998. The brotherhood and the level of play that I experienced at Delta was absolutely beyond belief. The level of acceptance that I got was just, it was amazing. And I think that as a young man at the time of 34, I was amazed to see men in their like 70s and 80s still playing and playing hard. And it is very emotional for me, because we do have a lot of ageism in our community as well. That's true. And it was just so incredible for me to feel that acceptance. And I mean, I played so hard, I was exhausted after the weekend. And you have been an invaluable part of Delta since you joined. Well, I mean, from the chairman, Charlie Clark, who definitely made me feel welcome to Harold Cox, one of the guys that started Delta. You know, I mean, so many men that were there my first year, just so welcoming and making me feel sexy and that I belonged. It was really incredible. In other words, a sea change from the response from Hellfire? Completely different from the response from Hellfire. Why do you think it was so different? I think that part of it was that from what I understand, and Michael Horowitz approached Harold Cox. And Harold Cox said, well, is he a player? And Michael's like, oh yeah, I've played with him. He's definitely a player and he's hot and he would fit in. And so basically the guys that were in charge of the club decided to invite me. To welcome you too. And to welcome me. And I had a great time I played. I did a little bit more switching than I was a little bit younger. I did some bottoming. And I had a great time. And I topped. I had a really good time. But I think that, you know, I'm sure it's not just Harold. But I do know that Harold was a very vocal supporter of me being there. And even after in 99, it actually came up at the general membership meeting during Delta. There were men that were unhappy that I was there. They thought that I should be thrown out of the club and that FTM should be banned. And Harold, among others, basically said, well, there's the fucking door. If you don't like it. If you don't like it, you can go. Wow, wow. Yeah. No, they were very, very vocal. And there were men, a small handful of men that actually left Delta because I was welcome. And it was after what had happened with Inferno, it was definitely a real difference. And I mean, I love my brothers at Delta. And I love the organization because they have been welcoming and supportive and very in their own quiet Delta sort of way. They've been the community leaders in the men's play community around this. They were the first outspoken club that said, no, we are going to welcome these men into our placements. Well, Seattle men were other too. I don't know when Seattle men in leather actually did that. Well, they welcomed you in other words. Well, they welcomed me. I don't know because I wasn't a part of Seattle men in leather and I don't really know when all of that happened. And of course, Dave Lewis is not around anymore. And Dave would probably, he would be. But this whole time was a time where many more people were transitioning and becoming visible and not being willing to hide anymore. Right. Well, and the thing is too is that you have to remember is that having gay men that were trans was still fairly new. I mean, Lou Sullivan was the first one. He was still alive when I transitioned back, he passed away in 91 or 91 maybe. And he was the first one that was allowed by the medical community. He fought to transition to being a man and being a gay man. So a lot of transgender people, transsexuals at the time, the medical community would not support your transition if you weren't going to be straight. So if you were male to female, you were going to be with men. There was, I mean, there were MTL, lesbians when I was living in San Francisco. But it was still fairly new to have gay identified transgender people or transsexuals, which was the common vernacular at the time. So this is still fairly new. And so what was happening is that now in the late 80s and early 90s, people were becoming aware of us. And clubs like Delta and Seattle Men in Leather were starting to take a stance. And then the internet started happening too. So I think that the internet also started contributing to the education that there were these people and there were certainly people, thought leaders within the gay community that were talking about this. And then there were the FTMs and the M2Fs themselves that were being out and saying, no, I'm not going to be closeted about my past. This is a part of my past. I'm not ashamed of it. I'm part of the men's community now. And part of the leather men's community. Exactly. So it was definitely starting to happen. And certainly my acceptance and my friendship with Tom Dumkowski, but my acceptance at IML and my friendship with Tom Dumkowski. And then also my friendship with Michael Horowitz and his inviting me to Delta. And then the men of Delta, specifically Harold Cox being very vocal about his support of me being there was really instrumental to me finding my way in the gay men's leather community. Very instrumental. For those who do not know, would you please explain who Tom Dumkowski, Michael Horowitz and Harold Cox are? Well, I'll start with Tom Dumkowski. Tom Dumkowski for many, many years with IML was the chief judge. And I met him the year that I competed. He's a, I mean, Google Tom Dumkowski, he was just a prolific community activist within the Chicago scene and just a wonderful man, an absolutely wonderful man. But he was involved with IML as their chief judge for many, many years. And I worked with him on his staff before I became the judge's coordinator for IML several years later. Michael Horowitz, Michael's been around, how long have you known Michael? I've known Michael since my first inferno in 1984. He's been around since then and particularly active in the New York community as an organizer at Folsom East and at GMSMA. Yes, so Michael Horowitz has been around the leather community, specifically in New York and internationally through the Chicago Hellfire Club as a player, many years presenter, does amazing mummification, electrical. So he's very well known within the men's community and also within the women's community as well. He's definitely, I mean, I met him at IMSL where he was doing a presentation on mummification. So in the mid-90s. Yeah, and then in the late 90s and early 2000 is when I come into the story because after what happened at Hellfire in 97 I think you went on to IML and Delta where you were welcomed and you put it aside. You were going to Delta then? I was going to Delta then and I saw what was going on. What other name did you ask about? There was another name that you wanted to know. Harold Cox. Oh, Harold Cox. So Harold Cox is God, he was a fixture at Inferno. From the beginning. From the beginning. Amazing player. Some of you that are a little bit older or a little bit luckier probably have been to the mountain which is Harold's place in Wilkesbury and his play space. And he's still around. He wrote Checkmate Magazine. So those of you that are... You remember it. Yeah, amazing player, incredibly intelligent and like Tony and Joseph and Peter definitely one of these people that wasn't afraid. He wasn't a follower, he was a leader and said, okay, here's the situation. What are we going to do? What is the right thing to do? What's the appropriate thing to do? Very thoughtful. And a very good friend of mine and certainly a great advocate within Delta for FTM men. The next thing that happened really was in the same year in 2002 the 15th Association. We never had a policy and there had been men who were transitioned coming to our events regularly some of whom I invited. But in 2002 somebody wrote into the Bayer border a letter saying that the 15 parties now included drag kings was the expression they used for transgender men. And the chairmen, the board of directors and I was on the board of directors, I was one of the full members voted to put it out to the membership whether we would welcome transgender men. That's the phrase we used, welcome. And we had 110 members and I think about 80 of them responded. It was by email. And one person said no, one person said I'm not sure but decided they were a yes. And 71 people said yes, we need to be welcoming. And then that same year I don't know whether you came to me or I came to you but I thought it was time to think about inviting you to Inferno again. I don't remember exactly how it all went down but I do remember... Because after the 15 I felt bad about what had happened five years earlier and I knew about Delta and had seen Billy at Delta knew about his competing, we were friends. Well, I think that part of what happened for me is that in 99 I came back to IML as part of Tom Dumkowski's staff. So I worked with the judges and so every year in May it was like this, you can't come to CHC, you can't come to play events and you walk around the Vendormart and CHC has a table and they invite everybody but not you, but not me to the clubhouse. So it was like every year it was like this little like... This little poke and then people would come up to me guys that I didn't know would come up to me and say hey are you going to the clubhouse tonight? It's like no, I'm not allowed to go. So it was like every year it was like this little needle and I would live in my little Delta bubble in my little Seattle Mr. Levin bubble for most of the year and then I'd go to Chicago and work for an organization that I love, IML with people that I loved being with and once a year I'd get this... and I don't know if Peter contacted me this is something that we're a little bit fuzzy on we didn't really start recording this stuff until probably 2005 so our timeline of this stuff is a little fuzzy but I don't know if Peter contacted me to tell me what was happening with the 15 I think that might be it Yeah, I can't remember But I'm not sure In any case, I decided to invite Billy and he agreed that he would accept an invitation To Inferno So he started it up again and by now it was like it was many years later and so I was now I think in 2002 I ran for the board and was elected to the board of Delta and I served two consecutive three-year terms which is a maximum without stepping off the board and my last year I was vice chair for four years and I was chairman for a year for Delta And the chairman of Delta was not allowed to attend any Hellfire event So I think that in 2002 that between what was happening and Peter just kind of feeling bad and me being needled every year we decided that we would do something about it So I have here in this timeline that you presented From May 24th 2007 Heather Kessel from The Bay Area Reporter published a story about CHC's discriminatory policy That article created a shitstorm with people attacking Peter and myself to which we say if you don't like the truth, change it So between 2002 and 2007 CHC actually pulled its members They did a survey of their members which was I never saw the survey so I don't really know what it said but the majority of the members were open to having FTMs as guests But not as members But the full members refused The full members refused because it was a matter of great difficulty and there was anger on both sides They decided that they would if you weren't for a male that's the word they used You could not attend or join and there would be no further discussion So there were a few people that were unhappy with this new policy and one of them, Volta actually contacted Heather and he's the one that Peter reminded me of this earlier Volta actually contacted We were both accused of having done this story It wasn't Volta, it was Volta So Volta I knew from I met him at Delta and he had gotten involved in 2002 He was part of the group of guys that were trying to get the policy changed from CHC and was a great advocate at the time Incredibly intelligent, great player very well known He decided that he would contact Heather and let her know that this club that supposedly was like, I think that CHC was trying to say that they promoted trans inclusion in the city of Chicago Yeah, they were for the ordinance in 2007 They also were saying they were leaders in the community but leaders in the community were discriminating I think that's what it was I'd have to go back to Volta because it was happening in 2007 and that's what stuck in Volta's craw was that they were saying that they were supporting this trans inclusion policy and he's like, you friggin' hypocrites You don't allow trans guys in your club and he contacted Heather from the BAR And they had just voted to not even discuss it for five years, which was why he contacted Yeah, so now it was five years later in 2007 So Heather contacted me to get my thoughts She's a great writer and very thoughtful She did a lot of research before she talked to me She talked to some other people within San Francisco at the time She talked to me and I confirmed pretty much what people had said but I said you can't quote me I mean, it was really great I thought it was an excellent article but the guys at CHC were furious They were livid that their name had been mentioned in the gay press, particularly in such a context In such a context, and they were absolutely furious So IML was a little more fun for me that year And we had to explain to them that yes, you have a right to have any policies you want but the public has a right to know but that's always when people ask me well, it's like a private club My feeling is that if you are asking the leather community for money, for support you want to wear a back patch and parade around the community If you want to do that then you are opening yourself up to a critique by a member of the community and I am a member of the community and I have the right to express my displeasure around your policy You have a right to have your policy if you want to be an organization but I have a right to express my displeasure and also say what I think and the community has a right to know and the community and my friends Otherwise, they may support an event that they really totally wouldn't which is what happened to Peter around International Leather Service They did not tell them that they had an anti-trans policy and they got me to judge and I called them up afterwards and I said, you know that really hurt my feelings that you judge the contest What are you talking about? I said, oh, you don't know they have an anti-trans policy and he says they do not and I said, yeah, it's not on their website but they definitely do because I had checked their website and they literally lied to me and told me that they accepted transgender men that all males could compete and we're welcome and I knew from talking to people that had filled out applications is that it was on the written application that they excluded trans men so my feeling is that if you want to have a policy against a certain group of people then you need to be open about it or you can have your own little private club with your six friends in your basement and in 2006 with Leather Service the event in San Francisco directly violated the equal rights in San Francisco the law they had an event where transgender men were not allowed to compete in the public space they certainly violated the law and in actual fact the event went ahead but they didn't have another one the public was not happy Well, and you can read that in Header's article in the BAR about the backlash there was a terrible backlash I mean, I had someone who is a leader in the community to this day and I won't name their person but that person who is of color actually said to me why would transgender men go where they're not wanted why don't they start their own events for transgender men and I said, oh so Rosa Parks should have gotten off the bus because the white people didn't like her and didn't want her there what are these folks supposed to do are you listening to yourself and I said, and by the way you have friends and close people to you who are transgender men and who are being excluded you need to rethink this and it took about two weeks and I got a call back saying I've thought about it, you're right but publicly, no support Mr. Marcus from BAR actually wrote what kind of leader in the community is who washes the community's dirty linen in public in the newspaper and specifically saying my name well I think that he was pissed off because Header wrote this article about the leather community he was livid, he screamed at her he screamed at her, he was very upset he screamed at Cynthia, how dare you print this and Cynthia said the BAR is a newspaper for everyone and you're a columnist but circumstances began to change what happened with ILSB in the fall of 2007 oh well, Mark Frazier Mark Frazier actually Mark Frazier who was I met Mark Frazier actually through Tony de Blas and Mark had always been an ally in this fight Mark Frazier and a very well known businessman and community leader and presenter within our community actually bought ILSB and he changed the policy as soon as he bought it I sent him an email and I said Mark we really want you to change this policy and he said that what was holding him up was a clause that Mike Zul had in it that Mike did not want Mark to change the policy and Mike had started this rumor and it is a rumor that Leathersther and Boyd which was based on drummer that drummer had not allowed transgender men to compete as drummer or drummer boy and it was completely untrue well and you have to kind of go back to what we had talked about you know the 15 had no policy a lot of the men's clubs had no policy before this became an issue and drummer had no policy I lived in San Francisco there was no policy but there were also not any FTM that were trying to compete and so I think the only time that this actually really came up with regard to drummer was in 1998 there was a drummer boy Eric who was told by Robert DeVal and then friends with Eric and I trust him when he told me this is that Robert said that he could compete but that he would not win because he was trans and he wasn't to tell people and then he wasn't to tell people yes he was told he wasn't to tell people and cover up by the way well I tell you what I've been in bathhouses with this guy and I don't think a lot of people knew that he was trans anyway but I digress but so you know in my understanding of drummer there was no there was never a policy except for Robert telling Eric that and that wasn't policy and I don't think that it was ever policy it certainly wasn't any policy but that was the start of change because mother sir and boy publicly announced that all men could compete they wouldn't ask what your birth status was so now we were starting to get this critical mass we had Delta International which was open we had the 15 which not only was open but was welcoming and which refused to support other clubs that did not allow their members and there was a lot of overlap at the time between 15 and CHC and there still is and between Delta and CHC but the 15 told CHC as long as all of their members were not welcome at CHC events that they could not support them financially and that their colors could not be displayed the 15 colors would not be displayed at any CHC events until they changed their policy so that all of their members all of the 15 members were included so it was quite something and so that happened in 2002 and in 2007 Mark Frazier bought International Weather Sir and was very public about changing the policy and all this time more and more men who were trans were coming out and were saying I won't hide anymore and more and more allies were saying it's wrong to exclude and people were starting to speak up and to that point when we were talking about International Weather Sir in 2006 and those of you that are part of the Yahoo Leather title holders page can go back and read these postings I did recently so they're still there and the only person that stood up for Peter publicly and for me publicly back in 2006 was Phil Nickerson Yes Phil Nickerson was in Iowa wonderful Phil is the only one and he got so angry and so irate and said how dare you these men are part of our community and it was quite wonderful to see this but you know this was but it also caused people to rethink it Yes it caused people to say well maybe I've got this wrong maybe there's maybe we need to be open we'll let these guys come and the other thing that was true too is you weren't talking about three or four guys like you were talking about in the late 80s and early 90s you were talking about a lot of people you were talking about out title holders American Leather Boy what year did Tyler follow them Tyler won I think in 2009 9 or 10 and then Tyler McCormick won when I am so what was happening from like 92 to 2006 2007 is that there were more and more FTMs that were out that were playing certainly the guys at the 15 were being exposed to FTMs the guys at Seattle Leather were being exposed to FTMs not only exposed they were becoming full members voting members officers becoming Tyler same thing at Delta and so the clubs that had played were becoming inclusive and then the greater leather community are title holders the organizations were becoming more inclusive and saying no these men are welcome and when Mark Frazier changed international leather sir now our two big title holder organizations were inclusive and the only real clubs that were not inclusive and including and welcoming were Hellfire and Discipline Corps and maybe some and maybe some small small clubs that really are six guys that play together but it was about that time Billy that the two of us realized that what had started out with Hellfire was much bigger than that it was now the whole community that it was a matter of setting community standards were transgender men welcome or were they not were they to be included or excluded and it had to be a community discussion and a community standard needed to be set either way and that that was going to be more of a stroke but coming pointedly to Tyler McCormick's win at IML in 2010 share your thoughts on that your feelings and because I was because I competed out in 98 and because I've stayed involved with IML is over the years when when transgender men want to compete at IML I invariably in I love the age of Facebook I invariably get a message on Facebook from somebody that I don't know that says hi I'm Mr. so-and-so letter from blah blah blah and I'm going to be competing at IML to you and so that's actually how I met Tyler and Tyler reached out to me and we had a chat and I said look I said here's my recommendation there have been other F2M's competing at IML some out some not out since I competed in 98 so he wasn't certainly the next after me and I said look I said you know you can choose to be out not to be out I said my recommendation is be yourself and have a good time and know that IML supports you being there and I support you being there and he showed up and he had a great time I mean you know you work with the contestants you know it's like there's some guys that are just there having fun and he was a wonderful competitive but you know it was like brave and sweet and he didn't really know until I mean his state his speech was really was really quite moving for many of you that don't know Tyler can walk but it's easier for him to get around in a wheelchair and he can walk a short distance Tyler McCormack and he came out and walked out to the microphone his speech and then walked out but I still think that what really made me realize that he was like who he was was when he came out to do his physique portion he was in his wheelchair and he got up towards the end of it and he shook his ass at the judges lifted his ass out of his wheelchair and shook his ass at the judges and it's this embracing of your masculinity and loving yourself out there that to me was like he did he put himself out there and I really believe that that's why the judges in the end chose him to be international and he did say he was a man living with disability and he did say that he was a man who was transgender in his speech but in a matter of fact way so it was and I don't remember his exact wording is that is that he won and what was also really interesting was that there was an incredible backlash like I can't believe that I am now picked this person this person is really a woman it was horrible but you know what was really cool is you know who responded to the community that was attacking him? The community the community responded and it wasn't one Phil Nickerson it was a whole lot of people in 2010 and Tyler barely spoke about it yes that's true he barely spoke about it it was the community and so it's like you see this like you know these few people back in 92 talking about this and then one man doing this thing in 97 and then me coming on board and then you see like one person or a couple of people Volta and Peter and Phil Nickerson each person who comes out brings more people who come out and brings more people and so when Tyler won and there were definitely people that were unhappy about him winning there were a lot of misogynistic transphobic comments about him and he learned to joke about it he even referred to himself don't be offended by this language he referred to himself as a tranny in a wheelchair but you know but the community was changing and the fact that the judges selected a transgender man and he won fair and square I was there and it was incredible he had an incredible year and I'm so proud I'm so proud of him and every year now it's just for me is so interesting and to see the to see the community change and to see the community accept FTMs as part of the male title holder community and to see men accepted within the gay male play spaces was really just just watching that and then going through and taking the time to learn things as they were happening it was amazing I think the next thing that happened was Mark Frazier sold international leather sir to Jeffrey Payne in October of 2011 the CHC Chicago Hellfire Club reorganized and that created considerable changes tell us about that this was really exciting one of our allies within the club had told us and I'd heard this from a number of guys that were members of CHC that the way that the club was organized it was basically hamstrung from changing the full members really weren't letting the club move forward and it wasn't until the club reorganized and changed the way that it was organized that I think that the club really was ready to move past I mean the full members would fight with each other and they had an issue around the transgender and all sorts of other issues as well other issues and so there wasn't really an opportunity to change but in October of 2011 the club reorganized and instead of having full members that were brought in by other full members the membership opened up if you lived within the city limits of Chicago within 50 miles you had to be a full member or nothing you either had to be a full member or nothing before that you had the full members and then the associate members and so now you had 50 or 60 people that were full members and an elected board of directors and an elected board of directors not a self-selected group of 16 or 17 or 18 but an elected board of directors and much to my delight that I knew was an ally Paul Cantrell was the first president of Chicago Hellfire Club under that system and one of the first things that Paul did was Paul actually had the guest policy changed to include FTMs and he wanted to change the policy entirely but he couldn't find enough support at that time so it was a baby step it was guests FTMs could be guests and the most interesting thing about that they were afraid to tell us they wouldn't tell us they hid it from everyone they didn't make any announcements and I heard rumors you're going to be disappointed you think you won you think they opened up but it isn't true and finally a friend of mine in San Francisco who's with the 15 and who's very active in Hellfire said to me I need to tell you the truth and membership is still closed and it will be for five years and I was livid more that they hadn't told us than anything else and I said fine we'll continue this till it's over even though they changed it when they changed the way that they were set up there were still people that were incredibly unhappy about this they did not want FTMs at the club they wanted the club how sanitized if any transgendered man had been there or any woman but that's not the whole club that's a few people Hellfire, they're my brothers they're my family and in fact I'm going to quote John Krumgard because it's a very funny quote I said to John once during this period I think about 08 well I may not be a member anymore because you know I'm the first honorary member of Hellfire who ever resigned and the only and I said to John well I may not be a member anymore but I'm still family and he said well yeah you're the old dad we have to lock up in the attic crazy old dad John had the dubious honor of being chairman among the full members during part of the period where this was all going on and it was difficult for John but like the club he came around well you know I think that there were a lot of people that had personal feelings and then there were people that had political feelings and there were people that a lot of people who just wanted it all to go away and there were a lot of people that really believed that it's a private club and they should be able to do whatever they want before just agree with that you want to wear public colors and you want to walk up to people at the vendor mart at IML and invite everybody but it wasn't so much pressure on them as seeing they finally got it that the clubs and events that were open were doing much better in attendance in excitement in public approval then they were known to discriminate and they talked about it and that's the thing that I would say to people is that there's a difference between being an asshole and talking about something and informing people and I feel like it's important for people to understand what people's policies are if you want to have a policy whether you have a club or you have a contest or shouldn't go to Hellfire events or shouldn't be a member of Hellfire but I did tell people you need to know what their policies are it's a matter of understanding but in 2013 ILSB had a major change tell me what went on with that well I don't really know exactly how it went down there's what people say we know the response so in 2013 there was an announcement from ILSB ILSB ILSB that they were going to revert to their roots of drama which we've already talked about and once again you'd have to be born male to compete for Sir and Boyd although transgender men and women would be welcome at their events welcome at their events as community boot plan but not for Sir and Boyd and the community response was furious the community response was it blew us away Peter and I didn't comment neither one of us commented we just watched we just watched the fur fly and it was literally thousands of facebook messages and emails everything blew up oh my god it was like they announced that they had called another meeting to review this within three or four days and the meeting took place and they said we made a mistake in less than a week they decided that they made a mistake and that they were operating under some misperceptions or the community didn't understand it there was even four days they had not intended to change the policy they didn't have a discussion it mistakenly released who knows but the backlash from the community towards the organization was fierce and it was just it made me feel so good because there were people that had been around in 2006 and 2007 who had felt totally differently or hadn't responded or people back in 2002 that hadn't participated in any way and it was just for me great to see some of my 15 club brothers because by then I joined the 15 and to see some of the young trans men and other trans allies speaking up because by now Peter was not the only advocate the only vocal advocate there were a lot a community standard had been established so there were cisgender men and women and other trans trans people and now of course we have people that are non-binary there were a lot of people within the community that responded in 2013 and the change the reversion of like oh yeah we made a mistake yeah we're not going to have that rule was even kind of we saw it so it was really it was quite fascinating and Peter that's when we knew it was only a matter of time to full acceptance to every club in the country being welcoming and I tell you what and so what ended up happening is I was talking about that little stick of being poked every year in May I would talk to the full members of Hellfire Club which was now much bigger and I would talk to the people that were on the board and I would again say hey when are you guys going to join the community which now welcomes and accepts FTMs as part of the gay male community when are you going to change when are you going to catch up you want to be you guys say you you guys are behind the times all of the clubs except for yours and Discipline Corps in Dallas which cited CHC for the reason for their policy they were now not a part of the community standard and two years ago in 2015 a gentleman from the 15 who was known to be a transgender man was refused at Discipline Corps and he decided he wanted to speak about it and I have to press my admiration for particularly Raymond Pierre because I went to Raymond who was IML maybe it was 2014 whatever his year was and I went to Raymond and said this is going to blow up and I need your support and he didn't question it he wanted to talk for a few minutes and then he expressed full support and everybody from IML came out of the woodwork contestants IML volunteers IML staff everyone and everyone from the clubs from Delta from the 15 rose up and said this is wrong and we're not going to support this club and their events until they change and I had gone to them before that and tried to work things out just like I had gone to Hellfire before I quit as a member I tried to work with the committee that they had to decide what policy to have they would allow intersexed members and guests they would not allow members or guests to be transgender that's why they allowed intersexed members is because they already had intersexed members and they didn't want to excuse them and after almost two years of that one night and this is a wonderful story I went to bed and I was trying to decide whether to stay as a member or whether to quit and I prayed to Tony de Blas's spirit and I said Tony I need help I need to know what to do and I was really struggling and he came to me as clearly as you guys here and he said do what's right and no regrets and the next morning I phoned in and told him I was resigning and I sent a letter and sent back by my colors it broke my heart but it had to be done where is the situation today with CHC or any other organizations this summer I'm still friends with a number of guys Michael Horowitz and John E. out of New York and this summer at a barbecue I was asked if I would be willing to talk with somebody at CHC about their policy this past summer so 16 and so I was when I heard who was going to be contacting me I was thinking oh yeah and much to my surprise and delight I got a very nice email from one of the guys that was part of this committee he said we're exploring changing our bylaws and I want to talk with you about some wording around changing our bylaws for membership and I sent him an email back I was very excited and I talked with Riley Johnson out of Chicago and he had also been attending and attending events and he had also been contacted about the wording around this and by now this has been 19 years for me so I didn't really I didn't want to get my hopes up but I was really excited that it's like okay maybe this is going to be it maybe they're going to do this and we heard it had been put on the agenda and Riley went to Inferno this year this was his first Inferno he'd been around the club for a long time had been done programs for he was well known and he went to Inferno and they actually voted to change their membership policy and it had to come to a vote not just to the board but the full members in Chicago had to vote on it and it needed a two thirds majority and it actually got well over 75 percent it was unanimous with one abstention it was unanimous so this was unanimous with one abstention that's true just like the 15 it was unanimous with one abstention so they changed I'm proud of it wonderful and the very next day they voted on Saturday the very next day was the general meeting of Discipline Corps in Dallas and they changed their policy same weekend but there's a lot of overlap in the player community so I'm sure that there was probably some conversations and I think if you talk to men who are transgender in the leather community and who go to play events or go to events that you will find that this standard that the community has decided upon of just accepting people as men is playing out well don't you think Billy? I think that we were talking a little bit about this I think that things are certainly people that adds another level of complexity to this situation but I'm very proud of my advocates like Peter when I think of an advocate but when I think of an advocate to me Peter Fisk is an advocate he put a lifelong friendship with men in this club he basically put that aside and said this is not right and the men that spoke up over the years Harold Cox Michael Horowitz Volta Roadkill from San Diego there were a lot of men that spoke up and people like Tony de Blas who had this idea and Joe Bean and it's about realizing that our community does change and that the tent needs to be bigger it really does and so if you go to events or join clubs in the men's leather BDSM community now today 2017 I think you will find broad acceptance and people don't get asked you know what are you transgender you know people are not asked about their birth status or their transition that's private medical information and that's been accepted now and I might add to some people who and maybe Billy should be saying this rather than me as an ally but I've seen too much hurt over it sometimes people out someone who's transgender don't do it folks even in good circumstances leave people their privacy thank you gentlemen it's been amazing thank you so much I really appreciate you giving us this opportunity because it's been a long journey for us it was a long struggle and because it involved the whole community it certainly came to the right conclusion but it was a difficult time sure it was well you know and history will thank you for it when I see young guys who are trans out in the community it makes me happy they don't have to say a word I don't even want them to I just want them to participate and be in the community for our community that we opened up it is it's really good now if we could just fix some other issues like racism and income inequality but we'll talk about that another time yeah great thank you thank you so much