 This is the first of four events that we're having over the next few months to launch this book on decoding Southeast Asian art in honor of, and we're very pleased he's with us here today, Atchum Piria Krakish, who has been a leading figure in Southeast Asian art over many, many decades. This is the book cover as we've come up with it. And I'd like to just take a moment to remind of some of the publications of Atchum Piria over the years. We come up here after completing his degree at Harvard University. He then, before that, he'd also studied the United States in Bloomington, Indiana, the Royal College of Art in London, and had been at many, many other schools throughout England and in Europe as well. He's now professor of art history at Thomas Sot and president of the Piria Krakish Foundation, as well as from 1999, that a senior research scholar with the Thailand Research Fund, one of the key funders of research. And in fact, I can mention among the countries of Southeast Asia really, I think Thailand stands out in the degree to which the government and foundations are able to enable research to be undertaken on the region. If we, what I wanted to do was then move on to encourage you. These are selected publications, but you can see they go here over many, many years. The last one looking at Renaissance lectures in honor of her Royal Highness, Princess Mahasirian, to honor her 50th, fifth cycle anniversary that came out through the Siam Society in 2018. And then a review article on the Lost Kingdoms exhibition that was in the Metropolitan Museum in the Journal of the Siam Society. You remember earlier in his CV, there's been many, many links through the, I think one of the oldest perhaps, and certainly most eminent research societies, the Journal of the Siam Society in Bangkok. And then going back to Prabhatom Chetty, other articles, selected articles on the occasion of another fifth cycle anniversary, more review articles. And then this book, our current book, which is coming out soon, is going to be published by River Books in Bangkok. This one also was in 2012, a seminal book that I'll turn over in a minute to Acharn Phiriya, hoping he might just say a word about his argument within this book. I think it stands apart and in also following his very distinctive voice throughout his long, long academic career. Heritage protection, so not just strictly art history, textiles, ancestral textiles, Indian influences, looking at the Suriyotai history of Ayudhya art. And I hope we can put this online afterwards as well. Dating controversies, and I think this is also a characteristic of Acharn Phiriya. He is not afraid of controversy. He's a man with very distinctive ideas, which I quite admire. We often struggle to really take a position, but he does it without fear and sticks with it always. Although he's open to further discussion. If I keep going back and looking at some of the much earlier ones, I actually move back through my own career of remembering many, many times when I'm searching for a source, a reliable source, but one that might give me a fresh approach for writing and for teaching on the historiography of Thai art and how it can best be periodized. In this one, again, he took on controversy in looking at the Ram Kham Heng inscription. And then I found one the other day when I was sent this and looking back to a much earlier book that I remember quite well in setting out some of the Thai reflections on American experiences. So a whole range of things. And I think he's been a consistent and leading voice and one that we're very, very honored to have then been able to put together. This book proposed, I think originally by his student Acharn Pichita who had hoped to be with us today but had problems getting his visa. So my apologies for that. Our next event is at the Euro Seas Conference in Paris where we hope we will meet. And then two book launches, a conference and a book launch in Bangkok in October. We have four different speakers this afternoon and we'll each introduce ourselves. I guess I'd like to ask perhaps if Acharn Peria would be willing to come up to the podium to say a word. Yes, that would be welcome. Thank you. Thanks. Just to say a word about yourself and what you're planning now because I think some of the audience although we're a select audience, some don't know you. Yes, here, please. Just to thank you. Dear colleagues, ladies and gentlemen, I'm very honored to be invited here for the recording of Southeast Asian Art which many of us here have kindly spent so much time writing, contributing to this book which will be very most useful for the study of Southeast Asian Art. So I'm very grateful for your contribution. Thank you very much. And now, can I introduce myself? Yes. Yes, well, my name is Peria Greiler. Even though King Washi-Rawood insists upon calling it Greilerish. And he, of course, since he's given the surname Greiler, then in parenthesis he's written in English Greilerish. So what can you do? So it has to be Greilerish in English. And Greiler in Thai. So that has to be my lot for the last 80 years. So I'm still working. I hope I will finish my next book which is Art History of Utila. But one of my friends always helped me with the foundation. Suggest that if you want to write a book on Art History of Utila, why don't you write, include Sukho Thai in it as well. And it's a wonderful idea. I never thought of it. But since I have been writing the Sukho Thai and what that sign means called Mueang Nuea or the Northern part of the country. Sukho's size is so one kilometer low and Kampang Pet, they're all, which I have been working all these years to say it is part of Utila kingdom. So when you write this book, why don't you include it? So I said, well, what a wonderful new idea. I do that. So that's my next work, which I hope to start soon. This is my academic work. And I also go back to my painting. So literally I supported the foundation, not me, supporting the book publication by inviting people to sit for their portrait and contribute to the findings of the publication of this book. So Dr. Riviere has suggested that why don't I include, why don't the book include their portrait as well? So at the end of the book, you will have the portraits of the sponsors who contribute to the findings of this book. And the small, stem-like portraits, which is better than none, actually. Oh, so I'm still working in portrait paintings to support the foundation. So I can tell you that I have never been busier. So I always think that life begins at 80. Thank you. So that's my introduction. Thank you. We begin with Nicola Riviere. Pataratorn, do you wanna introduce yourself now or when you talk? Okay. So Nicola, could I invite you please to come and just say a brief word about yourself and some of the things that we have put together for the book. It's a wonderful volume. And I, yes, and thank you very much. I hadn't realized the portrait painting was ongoing as well or the history, both of which we look forward to. So thank you. Okay. Thank you very much. Very happy to be here. And thank you for coming over today from far away. And I suppose I should introduce myself very briefly and more specifically say a few words about the book, its content, the genesis of it. And then I will come to present my own contribution to this book. So I'm born French, born in Paris and I moved to Bangkok about 20 years ago to work as an instructor at Thomas Sets University, Bangkok, which is the same university as Atlan Piliya, where we were colleagues at the time. And as I moved there, I've been interested in more and more in the early Southeast Asian art, more specifically pre-Tai period, first millennium, and more specifically, the Varvati, central Thailand, Nakon Paton, which was also the topic of Atlan Piliya's PhD dissertation some long time ago at Harvard. So that actually I follow the steps of Atlan Piliya and we may sometimes disagree, but that is fine. And I'm very happy and honored to have been approached by my colleague, Atlan Pichaya, who's not with us today, but with the idea of bringing this first trip together. And it's nearly ready. We have a mock-up copy here. If you'd like to have a look when we have a break, it's going to press next month. So just in time for Atlan Piliya's birthday next month, and we will have an official book launch in Bangkok. Should you be there on September 8th? I believe it's scheduled. And a few other promotional events in Bangkok and Chiang Mai as well. So, and today's part of it. I would call it a soft launch book launch. So here's the flyer. You can have one of those if you don't have one already. And perhaps I can say a few words on the contributors and the contributions, as you can see here. So in order, so we approached over, but two years ago when this book project first started, we approached as many people as we could think of working on early Southeast Asian art mostly, a bit of archeology and related fields. And it's clearly, as you can see from the list, an international project with many international scholars from all over the place, including also a few Thai local scholars as well. And some of the people in this list have been, I've known at Lampilia for many, many years. Others may never have met at Lampilia physically, but we can say, I can say that all of us have been inspired by Lampilia's work. And I try to use as the lead editor, I try to present this list. So the first, maybe I should say a few words on each. The first two essays in this volume discuss very specifically the life and work of Lampilia from his, I wouldn't say childhood, but his youth in Europe and then in America when Lampilia started to work on switch from the work of art, fine arts paintings to art history and then discussing the new approach of Lampilia to art history in a field. So that's the first contribution. So kind of a biographical contribution. And the second, similarly, but more focused on the few years where Lampilia were as a curator of Asian art at the National Gallery of Australia in Canberra. And then we moving randomly on, but more or less chronologically from the very ancient period from the Bronze Age. As you can see with Dr. Paul on the so-called frog drums of Southeast Asia, sometimes called dongs and drums. So we have a nice contribution here. And then moving on to the territory of Indianization and the movements of Buddhist art from India to Southeast Asia with Dr. Brown. And then we reached in the land of gold, I suppose, the Suwanabumi Thailand specifically with a few contributions on Central Thailand. So one by architects on the side of Pongduk in Konchanaburi province. So that's more or less an architectural study. We knew interpretations and then myself, which you will hear in a moment. And then moving to Southern Thailand, Peninsula Thailand, the region of Satinpra and Nakon Sita Malat on different aspects. So Vishnu Vaisnava imagery in the first case with Dr. Paul Levy. And then a look at the chronicles, the traditional texts discussing the coming of the relics of the Buddha into Nakon Sita Malat by Adnan Sam, or Wanasan. And then we are still in maritime Southeast Asia discussing the iconography of Avalokiteshara, focusing on a tiger skin that you may see sometimes on the doti of Avalokiteshara images. Then moving to Central Java with a study on reliefs, new interpretation of the data from the reliefs in Borobudu and Pambanan by Dr. Ong. And then back to Thailand, the Northeast, and including Laos and Cambodia with Dr. Murphy discussing the sea mastones, a topic which was dear to Jean-Pierre as well. He has been working on this too. And then with an excursion into Upper Laos with Dr. Laurier, who will be in Paris next week in a few days, discussing the possibility of a Khmer influences in Upper Laos in pre-15th century. And then we have Dr. Sharok discussing the iconography of Amitabha in Angkor and Dr. Sharok would be with us in a moment. And then Elisabeth Moore, Professor Moore, will make a presentation right after me on the relic traditions in Myanmar or around Pagan area, Upper Burma. Dr. Chathoula Wong from Sympacorn University in Bangkok, an architect is focusing on the Ananda temple at Pagan. Then we have Dr. Baptiste from the Gimmy Museum in Paris who is reassessing, reconsidering, I should say, it's a kind of historiographical review of the works on the Brahmanical bronzes whether they are from the Sukkotai period or the Ayutthaya period. And then we have Dr. Listopad focusing on the reign of King Narayi, the second half of the 17th century in during the Ayutthaya period and the influence of Iranian or Persian influence at the time. And then we have Chris Baker and Professor Pasuk, husband and wife discussing the murals traditions in late Ayutthaya period. So where am I? Okay, Atlan Pichaya from Chiang Mai University continuing in the late Ayutthaya period discussing the temple arrangement and focusing temple architecture in late Ayutthaya period. And then Ms. Pim Papai and husband Jeffrey Soong discussing the ceramics, Sino Thai ceramics of the late Ayutthaya period. Dr. Woodward from the Emeritus Curator from Baltimore, Walters Art Gallery discussing Ben-Jarong new interpretations on some Ben-Jarong work from the early Ratanakosi period or early Bangkok period, if you will. There is also a fine appendix to that by another scholar discussing the one of the inscribed Ben-Jarong inscribed in Arabic with the date. So that's quite interesting too. And then we have Professor Leffert and Louise Court discussing stoneware production mostly in Isan, North East Thailand and a bit to Laos as well from the 19th century onwards. And Leifert would be with us in Paris in a few days. And Olivier de Berneau, Professor de Berneau a Khmer scholar, mostly textual scholar but it was quite interesting to have his input on legends concerning God Ganesha you know the elephant headed God and some legends from Cambodia to understand the imagery as well. And Adhan Pat here present discussing the iconography of the earth goddess, Parme Tolani and she'll be giving a presentation later today. And Dr. Rune discussing the monkey character in the Ramakyan or Ramayana Thai Ramayana moving from Thai or Sayama at the time and Burma, the iconography of two sites. Adhan Supamon from Chiang Mai University is discussing Western influence in late 19th, early 20th century in temples and buildings in the North mostly Chiang Mai, but also Teng Tung in Tuday Shan states. And then Professor Boats will discuss old photographs from the years of 1865, 1866 that is during the time of King Mongkut around the fourth and what we can tell about these old photographs. And then Professor Reynolds, Craig Reynolds discuss a specific Buddha imagery from the rain, late rain of the rain of the late King Bhoomi Paul in the 1960s. And then we have Professor McDaniel from the US discussing modern Buddhist practice and decorative art. And finally, some words about contemporary Thai artist with Sebastian Tayak from Chiang Mai University as well. So as you can see, we have a good spread out from the ancient period to the modern to the contemporary days. And it's quite representative of mainland Southeast Asia with a bit of insular maritime. My only regret is we don't have anything about Vietnam but otherwise I'm quite happy with that list. Originally there were even more people than this. Fortunately, not everybody could make it but I think here with 30 chapters we have a great volume here. So that is a few words about the forthcoming fast drift. Perhaps you have some questions at this point and which we can discuss before I start with my presentation. I was just to say that, yes, I mean in complimentary terms it's an extraordinary book. And I think that it represents a tribute to Atchim Peria's dedication but also his diversity and the ways that the questions reach out across the region. So an exciting production to have up. Our first actual formal presentation today is by Dr. Professor Nikola Revere. Assistant Professor. Assistant Professor who gets under a place for getting on the cover of our book as well. So I read through his article last night an extraordinary study but yes, I very much look forward to hearing. Thank you very much. So welcome back. So we're looking at the time but it looks like we will be fine with four speakers. Maybe we'll give a short break after two speakers. So my chapter dedicated to this volume for Atchim Peria is titled The Dvaravati Relief at Watsuta Bangkok and It's Indian Roots. The very idea for these contributions came rather recently when we finally agreed with the Peria-Clayuk Foundation on the book cover which you see here which is the relief that I'm going to talk about at Watsuta Bangkok, okay? So originally I had another chapter idea but since I didn't start to write until more recently I thought I would rather discuss these very interesting relief and this is what I'm going to do now. So probably many of you who have been to Bangkok are aware of Watsuta at the Royal Temple in the very center of Ratanakosin from the mid 19th century, completed in the mid 19th century. And as you enter the main Viham or Vihara, audience hall, as you can say, and as you look at the main Sakyamuni image, if you turn around on the back, you would see interested on its base the relief that I'm going to talk about. You will see pictures in a moment, okay? So what you see here on the book cover is the before the recent renovation. So here is the Gilded version, okay? As we all knew it until very recently, I think around sometime in 2021, I'm not exactly sure when it was, the older Gilded was removed and it now appears in its original limestone grayish color. It's rather high but 2.40 centimeters in height and it's divided in two registers. Narrative registers. The first register, which is the lower register, you have to look from bottom to top, moving upward, is depicting the story or episode from the life of the Buddha called the Great Miracle, okay? Mahapati Arlayya in Sanskrit at the city of Shravasti in Northern India or Jambudwipa, as we know it in text. I'll come to more details about it very soon. And as you move upwards, it's divided by a bar. The upper register shows you the Buddha, enthroned on the seat or the throne of the Lord of Gods, known as Indra or Shakra or Saka or Pa'in, depending on different pronunciation, different languages, the Lord of Gods on, in its palace, on top of Mount Meru on the, on the eve of the 33, called Thayastrimsha in Sanskrit or Tava Timsa or Tava Dune. And what is the Buddha doing there is basically teaching to the gods, the devas, and also to his deceased mother, Princess or Queen Mayadevi, who passed away about seven days after the Buddha's birth. So we are told in the text, okay? So again, so sometimes during the life of the Buddha, a great miracle appears. This is the lower register after which the Buddha is said to have ascended in three steps, three strides to the eve of the 33, to teach the cause and to teach to the dhamma, to his mother as well. So that is just to pinpoint what's in the middle, as you can see, in the middle of Ratanakosin, the ancient, the old quarters of Bangkok, which originally was an island. And Ratanakosin means basically the jewel of Indra. Okay? This is a view, an outside view of the main beyond at Batutat. So a very beautiful place. You probably have been. So as you go in, and you enter, and you see Pasi Sakyamuni, Buddha image, about eight, 10 meters, I forgot, high in height, in bronze, said to come from Sukkotai. And yeah, beautiful Buddha images was removed from the upcountry to the new capital, in the early 19th century. And New York paintings are also beautiful all around, and they depict not just the life of the Buddha, but they also depict the cosmology, the various heavens and hells and continents, et cetera, according to the Buddhist cosmology. So really, when you enter, Batutat symbolically you are at the top of Monmeru, and you are envisioning the whole universe. So turning around right on the back, you could see perhaps, as you see here, this is the back of the Pasi Sakyamuni image. And so here you see the relief with the two registers, lower register, the Great Miracle, and the upper register, the Precinct of Dharma in Monmeru. So again, this picture was taken before 2021, and this is how it looks like nowadays in 2022. So all the gilded has been removed, and I will show you some close-up photographs. So here you see the lower register, the Buddha Precinct. So as you can see here, the Buddha is enthroned with his legs down, a posture called Badrasana in Sanskrit, the Auspicious or Royal posture. The Buddha is preaching with his right hand, it's so-called Vidalka and gesture, very common in Dvarati art. In fact, it is actually unknown in Indian art, almost in association with this pendant leg posture. And I call this posture, a majestic posture. So the Buddha is preaching in majesty to the audience. So who is in the audience at the time at Shravasti? Well, we have the king, the place named Pasenadlit in Sanskrit, Pasenadlit in Bali, with this quote. Okay, so here they are in the old library. And as you look on the right, you see the eretics, including the leader of the eretics here, Naked, named in a text Pulana Kashyapa, so Kashyapa the older. And to make a long story short, after the great miracle, everybody was amazed and everybody converted to the words of the Buddha, except Pulana Kashyapa who lost his face and went into drawing in the nearby river. Okay, interesting details here, below the feet of the Buddha. You can see the Buddha's feet very often, nearly always are on a lotus. A lotus stalk upheld by a Nagaraja or a serpent king in human form. Let's see, too bad, Peter is not here, he loves Naga. Well, so here is a nice one, the Nagarood around the face of the Naga king. There's only one here. And as I will show you in a text, there should be two. Okay, so some discrepancy with a textual tradition here. Above the real Buddha, Shakyamuni or Gautama, you see doubles of himself. These are just nimitta, they are just emanations through his magical powers. He can multiply himself in the sky all over the place. So this is the great show, this is the great miracle that we are talking about. Buddha image is depicted in different posture, seated, cross-legged or even pendant-legged, reclining, standing, walking, et cetera. And all of these Buddha images are in a posture of preaching or meditating and so on and so forth. You can even see a bit to the top left and the top right, Buddha image is actually touching the sun and the moon. So this is how far this multiplication of Buddhas goes into the sky. And what you see here is very interesting, is all this is happening under a tree. And this tree with the fruits, you may guess, is a mango tree, okay? Important detail. The upper register here again, the Buddha unthrown and this time the Buddha is not unthrown on earth, he's on top of Monmeru. So basically it just kicked out the Lord of Gods from his throne, that is Indra. And the Buddha is sitting literally in place of Lord Indra. And he's preaching to the gods, attended by fly-wisking attendants here and his mother on the city on the lower left. Interesting detail because the texts say the mother, Queen Mayadevi, when she was reborn, she was reborn in heaven of Bodhisattva Indusita as a male. But here she's represented as a female. So these are some of the details that are quite interesting. Okay, so what are the texts saying? Well, the Pali tradition that we know today in Theravada Buddhism, Shravasti becomes Savati in Pali. And it is known there as the Twin Miracle, Yamaka Patialiya, because there is an extra add-on to it where the Buddha emanate flames, fire from his shoulders and water from his hands. And the main source for the Great Miracle of Shravasti comes from the Dhammapada commentary. You have the reference here. And interestingly in the Pali tradition, all this is happening below a mango tree. Okay, as we have seen, you may remember, in a relief at Vahsutat. So here is a modern depiction of a Great Miracle at Savati. This is a mirror painting from Vahsutat, which I took. And Vahsutat, you have depictions on the outer walls of the life of the Buddhas of the past. So not just one Buddha, not just Siddha Tagautama, but all the past Buddhas before him. And basically the story repeats itself. It's basically the same episodes, just happening at different time in succession. But what the texts say is that all Buddhas in the past and in the future would have to perform the Great Miracle at Savati or Shravasti, okay? So this is a common topic repeated over and over again. Repeated over and over again. Looking at other traditions in Sanskrit, we have a nice recension collected in the Divyavadana, the divine stories. One chapter of it is dedicated to the Great Miracle and that is the Sanskrit version. And there are some major differences with the Pali account. The differences between basically the Pali and the Sanskrit tradition here is that the mango tree does not appear in the Sanskrit tradition here. However, the Nagarajas appear in a Sanskrit tradition too, normally, known as Nanda and Upananda, beholding the stork of the lotus under the feet of the Buddha. And the Nagarajas don't appear in a Pali account. And there is a passage here. I am the line with my emphasis that specify the posture of the seated Buddha as he was performing his Great Miracle. So this is the translated version and the Sanskrit passage, which was important to me during my research on postures of the Buddha. Bhagavan Palyanka Nishana translated as the Buddha sat in Palyanka. That is the Sanskrit term. Now, what is Palyanka? In this context, narrative context is clearly cross-legged. So the Buddha was supposed to sit in a cross-legged posture and then make his performance. So that is what we have in the Sanskrit account published in the Divya Vedana, collected in the Divya Vedana. Okay. But what we have here in Central Thailand, again, I forgot to mention the Watsuta relief we have today in Bangkok, of course, does not come from Bangkok. It originally come from Nakhon Patom and it was brought over in the mid-19th century into Bangkok, just like this one. This is another example, also coming from probably Nakhon Patom, I think it says that to come from what she in Ayutthaya couldn't find this place. And I'm a bit cautious, but most likely, again, originally, this relief came from the area of Nakhon Patom today. It represents, similarly, the Great Miracle of Shravasti or Sabati, very close to the Watsuta relief with some slight differences. The Buddha is similarly enthroned, the left, the right-hand gesture preaching, with the audience of royal audience to the right, the heretics to the left of the Buddha at this feet, and the mango tree. You can see a mango tree, it looks like, it's quite same. Incidentally, there are a few miniature replicas of this stair from Nakhon Patom. This is from the Met replica, probably a modern artefact. Now, the main point is here, before I turn to the Indian material to look at the roots of this iconography is that to sum up what I've seen so far, it looks like the Watsuta relief. Here, Jo's inspiration from various sources. So this, we have to think, it could be textual sources, but we just don't have the text, original text anymore. We cannot say that it came from straight from the Pali canon, doesn't work, even though we have the mango tree appearing here, there are some other details that will tell us that it cannot be the Pali canon. It cannot be drawn directly from the Sanskrit account known as we have it today as well. So it's a mix, it's a mix of Sanskrit, Pali, so that's two possibilities in my view. Either it comes from another text, if such a text existed, but we don't have it. Anymore. Or more likely it was just a mix. The artist didn't really follow the text and perhaps we have to think of oral tradition as well, okay? And so the main message I want to convey here is that the sources are not known but probably a mix of different things. And interestingly for my work is the posture. I want, now I want to focus on the posture of the Buddha and thrown as a king or even as a god. And for this I have to go back to India, mainly from the Western India, the caves of Ajanta. I will look at a few examples from cave two, cave 16 and 17, where the great miracle of Shavasthi is depicted, where the Buddha's teaching of the Dharma on top of Mount Meru is depicted and also the successive episode when the Buddha is descending from Mount Meru at some cashier according to Indian tradition because all of these is a cycle, same cycle, okay? It is said that at the beginning of the rainy season the great miracle at Shavasthi appeared, then the Buddha took three steps, climbed up on top of Mount Meru, spend there a rainy season, two months, and at the end of the rainy season he come down on earth back at some cashier, okay? So one cycle, narrative cycle. So this is, unfortunately, I don't have original photographs. They are very difficult to photographs and they are a bit faded. So I will only show a line drawings here from cave two Ajanta dated from the third to the fourth quarter of the fifth century according to Walter Sping's short chronology, which I follow. So this is a mural painting probably depicting the great miracle at Shavasthi as we see from the number of Buddhas up in the sky and the main preaching Buddha here with other attendance. You will notice that the main preaching Buddha is always in Badrasana, the Majestic posture. The only difference with Varvati art is the end posture. In India, you will have the two hands at the chest level joined together, the so-called Dhamma chakra, mudra, whereas in Varvati art, it would be always the right hand. Here we can take a parallel with Canary, an example from Canary cave 89, perhaps slightly later, Canary north of Bombay, where we have an example. Maybe this is also a depiction of the great miracle, the central Buddha, see the Nagarajas at the bottom and a tree on top with maybe some tiny fruits which may or may not be the mango trees. I'm not entirely sure, but it has been arched as such. Cave 16, an example, nice example here of the Buddha preaching to the gods, to the people. We can also notice the appearance of Vajrapani here in this case, Vajrapani, the one of the bodhisattva with the Vajra in his hand. I don't have a pointer, sorry. Another example from also cave 16, you can see the Nagarajas down below. Here it's two episodes, so the preaching in heaven and then the descending of the Buddha in Samkashya. Cave 16, and this is a very nice one where you see one, two, three successive episodes from top to bottom in this case. The preaching to the gods and to his mother at the top, then the descending Buddha at Samkashya and finally the sermon at Samkashya. So one, two, three different successive episodes. So, of course, more details in the paper, but overall I find out that around the late 5th century till maybe the early 8th century in this period, especially in the Western Indian caves, the Buddha Shakyamuni, I think, is very often almost always, in fact, depicted preaching in Badrasana, or the majestic posture, because he's represented as a Shakravati, a universal monarch, or a Dharmaraja, a king of Dharma. So he's sitting on the lion throne with the Makaras and he is also, as the story tells us, a minority seated on the throne of Lord Indra, the Lord of Gods. And by doing this, basically the Buddha takes the attributes and power in the Yaa, in Sanskrit, of the Lord of Gods and rule over the universe, rule over the men, the devas and teach the Dharma. So here I apply this fancy Greek terminology, Pantokator, which came to my mind. I mean, as you look at early Christian art, you see this Christ in majesty, seated in majesty Pantokator, ruler of all. I think it applies also very well to the Buddha in this case. And here is one fine example from another cave in Maharashtra, Carla, could be late fifth, early sixth century, where you see the majestic Buddha, Pantokator, preaching probably on top of Monmeru, upheld, uplifted by the Nagas, Nagaraja, down the bottom. You see the wheel on top of the pillar with the two deer, so that may represent the earth plane. This could be the underworld plane and the celestial plane, so kind of a division here of the three realms in terms of cosmology. And on top, very interestingly, you see some flying celestials, angels carrying a crown. So they are about to crown the Buddha. It would only take a few centuries to start to find the first crowned or bejeviled Buddhas. But in this point, sixth century, not yet, but it's coming. But the idea is there. The concept is there. The Buddha is Pantokator and is about to be crowned. Just as Indra. Indra is the prototype of all kings in Indian coronation tradition. And to finish, I will give you an example, a much later example coming from Thailand, a polytext known as Buddha Padamangala. Supposed to describe the motifs and symbols found on the Buddha's footprints, Buddha Padas. And as you can see here, a nice example from Wat Po in Bangkok, you see all these symbols. One of them at the center, of course, is Mon Meru and the palace of Indra. And one of the symbols is this cry beer. It's the Badda Pitta in Pali. Pitta or asana are synonyms. So Badda Pitta or Badda asana is translated here as the stately throne. And it is described as a precious seat called red marble stone. The long name in Pali. And it said that the blessed one or the Buddha was sitting on this red marble stone seat in a room of the 33 devas, that is the Thayasimsa heaven, to teach Dharma to the deities and also to his mother. So I found this very nice way to bring back this topic to a more modern environment in Thailand. So to conclude, we have seen briefly here how this Watsuta relief coming from Nakonpatom or what I think is the devarity core of this polity, how it goes back, the concept goes back to Indian Western Indian iconography and concepts of royal glory and supremacy. So the Badda asana posture here I think was used as a propagandist visual device to display the power, omnipotent power of the Buddha. Thank you very much. Perhaps what I would suggest is we could have a few quick ones, pointed one. And of course, I'd love to hear from Adan Paliya. And we can save some time later on at the end for more general discussion. Okay, so a few minutes please. In my invitation later, I was asked to be a discussant. So I had to do a lot of work. So excuse me, since I have to do my duty as a discussant, I of course, I don't have to tell you what a discussant is supposed to be doing. But one of the things is to suggest discussions and what he could improve upon or he could take a different view and all that. So to start a thing, this is my duty. Well, I have two things to, my most important comment on Dr. Ravea, presentation or article is, shall I quote him in his words? May I? Quote. This is on the iconography. Quote. This also confirms that we are unable to attach the hybrid iconography found in this release of a particular Buddhist tradition and even less to a specific sect or nikkai such as that of the moons I was still adding. So dear to Achan Piriya. Thank you. Well, you mentioned me so I had to reply. And well, I agree with you. That is a hybrid iconography. You being a wise scholar, do not step in. Where my being a fool, step in where angel fears to tread. Got it? You wisely said it's a hybrid. And it's a confusion of the artist. The artist, this is the same sort of thing, this is when you're using Indian, but it is applicable to the, what we're talking of this relief. The artist at Ajanta, first then Kanheri and later in the Kampatom, may have confused or combine some elements of narratives belonging to different oral or textual tradition and sources. So this is a wise man said, he would say that. And the fool would say, I would say the Sanskrit version, the Divya Dhan should belong to the Moola Sawasthi Vardin, which I love. And the Moola Sawasthi should have come first into Thailand, present day Thailand before the Thera Vardin, which I only stated in the rules of Thai art anyway. So I would say that the earlier tradition persisted when the newer tradition, the Thera Vardin, come along. And so they combined together, not out of confusion, but out of tradition. Thank you. So that's my duty. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Well, you have the microphone. Yes, I know. Maybe other people have questions too. Mine are actually quite simple. I was just interested, who can decide to strip this panel up of the gold, of the gold plate, that it has had. It's just quite extraordinary, right? Because it's so nicely built in. And it's, when I saw it, it's a few years ago, it sort of looked fine. I thought that was interesting. Also, I would like to know, does the mother in all texts turn into a man when she's in Trisa's streams or heaven? Or just in some, in the Mahayana versions, would she also turn into a man? Okay. So on renovation, I'm not sure who ordered, I'm not sure who asked, I suppose, the boat. And there's been some renovation going on at Wachutat and in general, in many temples, especially during COVID. So that I don't know. Now, the thing about, I haven't checked all texts, but it's very traditional. It says she turned into a deva, or devada, I can't remember the exact term, which is ambiguous. I mean, normally devas are always born as male. Okay, born as male. There's no such thing as female deva. That's, but there is a paper reference to an article that discussed this issue precisely with probably many more details. So I can share that reference to you. If you'd like to... Yeah, that'd be interesting. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. So that was just interesting to see that sometimes the art and texts may... Or maybe we just don't know enough to say about what the text originally meant to say. Female or male. Yeah, because it does go to Chi Chi's mother. Or you understand the language, the Pali, and the grammar. Yeah. It can be ambiguous. Okay. Elizabeth, what do you like to... Nicola, thank you very much. It's a suitable opening on looking at the variety of texts, looking at objects, and looking at the many, many links out. I also wanted to say a thank you to Archer and Puria for his comment, his discussion comment on tradition, because that's where my paper, which comes next, comes in. So I'll go ahead and move on to my own presentation. I think it's still here on the screen. We've all been introducing ourselves very briefly and our connections to Thailand and to scholarship in the region. My own go back many, many years. My father was actually born in Myanmar, in Burma. He was a Baptist missionary. So my first visit to Burma was way back when I was living in Singapore in the 1970s. But I then went on to do my PhD on Thailand, on Northeast Thailand, and was very, very excited when I came across the scholarship of Archer and Puria. So combining those two, then over the years I moved to SOAS, taught here for quite a number of years, and more recently I've been focusing my study as a professor emeritus in looking within Southeast Asia. And I raise a hypothesis here. You may accept or not accept, we'll see. In looking at Pagan and beyond, and trying to what I call decode possible, more relic traditions and their influence in really the beginnings and flourishing of Pagan. See if I can manage the screen right. In looking at relics within 9th to 13th century, Upper Myanmar in particular, we have tangible footprints. This one you see here a photo by one of the Alperwood alumni students in Myanmar, Sulat Winn. We have relics acquired by Pagan kings when they searched out from Sri Lanka, other places for sacred and very, very much politically significant relics. And the type that I'd like to focus on today, which is a particular group called Mokdol stupas that are considered within traditional belief to be part of the 84,000 stupas simultaneously erected during Ahsoka's re-dissemination. Remember the first dissemination was by the Buddha himself, but Ahsoka's re-dissemination of Buddhist relics throughout nine divisions and places, Kodain Kotana at the time of the solar escape following a lunar eclipse. And I cited all of that simply to highlight the very specific event and the event that is often cited to me within Myanmar in talking about these Mokdol stupas. My premise here, which I hope to draw out further, and it is still a working premise, is that the network of Mokdol has developed a cumulative authority, authority of their own as a tradition that brings Shen Arhan, the monk who is credited with institutionalizing Theravada at Pagan with Mohn traditions. And I'd also argue that this is possibly independent of its doctrinal textural roots. If we come back to the community of 84,000 stupas, coming of course from the number coming from the sections of the Pali Canon. There are various sources, the Sanskrit, Sokut, Badana, Buddha Vamsa, and the Mahaparinibbana Sutta. But within the Mokdol stupas, I believe these have been very much merged with what we might call local social memory, the narratives of community substance, sustenance over many, many hundreds of years. This is from one particular stupa that the history, the Moggunpea, the Chauksa, recording Ahsoka's rededication of the relics. And this, if you read the Burmese, comes down to, it was an inscription erected in 1995. And I included it in particular as evidence of the ongoing patronage to these stupas, not temples. In doing this, I try to set out an argument bringing more in perspective. And you have down here, see if I can make the, oh, if Nicola's right, the pointer doesn't come onto the screen, does it? Coming down here from the town up to the capital of Old Pagan. Two parts that I'd like to draw out from this one is what is more usually done in setting up links between the town and Pagan in debating the tangible historical links of Pagan, primarily textual ones, in looking at more and contributions to the language, architecture, religion, all of which is controversy and continues to be debated. It is generally accepted, although we don't have that much tangible evidence that Shai Arhan helped with the institutionalization of Theravada at Pagan. And there is a further relic tradition that I'm not including within my argument here, what I call the Hare Tooth Relic tradition. I'll mention a bit more about them in the next slide. The second one, which I've called Line B here, is looking at local perceptions of the past in the present, not discounting texts, but looking at a different way of understanding the past and understanding the way that the past is relevant to the present in the sustenance of Buddhist communities throughout Upper Myanmar. This comes back to the question I raised earlier, whether Shai Arhan might have been instrumental in introducing the concept and the knowledge of the 84,000 stupas to Pagan. Coming back, looking briefly again at my Line A, the tangible evidence. This is one photograph given to me some years ago, in showing the flatness of the Delta areas and the way they move off into the sunset. Within these areas, within the first Millennium CE, this is a map that Stephen Murphy helped make for his exhibition Cities and Kings at the Asian Civilizations Museum. We do have tangible evidence of early kingdoms, one of which would have been Bagot, probably when I showed you down here earlier, the area around Bethane. Can you, sorry, can you try to hear my phone off? Is it the outside pocket? Just turn it off, sorry. Sorry, okay, sorry, my apologies. Okay, sorry. All right, the Maung Delta kingdoms. Within this area, there has been some archaeology, but precious little. This is one pit that was dug in 2005, where these farmers were found within what was then a small degraded stupa within farm areas of three images of the Buddha. You see them set out here, and these are still kept within the village. They have not been moved to a museum at the request and really the insistence of the farmers that found them. They are not Maung in style. They're not Burmese in style. They're not Pew, they're quite unique. And to me, they come back to this image here of looking at the kingdoms and probably their maritime connections to Sri Lanka and India. So I just raise this here as one example of the work that could be done on trying to define a Maung culture within lower Myanmar. The Hare relic tradition that I mentioned is one that's most commonly cited, that of Thona and Uttara, and the bringing of Kaumpti, the sage Kaumpti's request to the Buddha to visit the tongue, which the Buddha then did, and leaving Sandalshan and tooth relics. And through their patronage, this replication into 33 stupas. This is often debated because it's not recorded really in the 15th century inscriptions of Dhamma Cheddi. And the most hotly debated, and it still is interestingly controversial and creates many, many angry people, is the Maung paradigm primarily put forward by Michael Ong Thwin. Sadly passed away not too long ago, but where he thinks that the conquest of the Thona, which is accepted within Myanmar Chronicles, was a myth and that the Maung's were seen as European, as victims of the Burmans, and the writing was not Maung. Not that Burmese writing did not develop from Maung, but it came from Pugh, that Lucia's sequence of dark to light temples is incorrect and there's nothing to do with Maung. So in short, I'm dismissing all Maung evidence at Pagan. It also in this dismisses the reality of an archaeology within lower Myanmar. These kind of studies, in fact, very strongly contradict Ong Thwin's evidence. This is a list of bold and moted sites documented by Usann Nguyen within lower Myanmar within the Maung areas. These are some of them that he then surveyed and I surveyed quite a number with him. This is him here. And this is the Thon, the disputed capital, where climbing with him over the walls and moats and looking at the artifacts, there's very, very strong evidence. So the contribution of lower Myanmar to Pagan. That's one argument and it's an interesting one and I wanted to just bring it forward here. But the main thrust of my article is in looking at line B that I called it relics at Pagan and beyond. What you see here on the upper right is a map of the different monuments at Pagan and on the lower right, a relic chamber found at Thiru Ketia, Sri Keshetra, one of the Pew sites, all these temples, and many more that are just mounds on the ground, have relics, of course. And in my mind, they very much focalized veneration within the consecrated space of the relic enshrinement. They're unseen, so I'm not going to show you relics. They're unseen, but the places where they are kept acts to visualize the narrative and relationship to community support of place. We don't even have it, but on what you see here from Sri Keshetra Pew site, the finding of relic chambers. The Shwe Mohto that I want to talk about are known by their places and the communities that have sustained them, and the way that they're visualized through social memory. I think there is also a further association with Shen Aaraha, a dimension of him that is not drawn out in these earlier, the textual ones, of did Shen Aaraha bring the institutionalized Theravada at Pagan. This is one that is also a living tradition that I'll show you examples of, the associations, the Shen Aaraha thing are characteristic. You always can identify the stupa, his image, an ordination, hauling a pond. So I'd like to give you a few examples here. This is one at Halen, another Pew site. The site is known as Shwe Guji Mohto. It dates to the time of Athoka. There's a Pew inscription found there with the sun and the moon. It's been cited in a recent work on the Pew inscription of Corpus. And there's also later Pagan period inscriptions of 1238 and 1285, with recording donations of the little known King's, King Salu. As you can see, it's in a quite open and not too populated landscape of it. It's actually outside the walls of Halen, but it's resonant of the local community support, because in contrast to the monuments around it, many of which are archeologically preserved, it has been continued to be sustained. You see that by the gold stupa and the many shrines around the main stupa. And well patronized. It's one of the most popular in the area. My own acquaintance with this Mohto tradition did not begin by looking at texts or reading about them in texts or searching out, because in fact, most of the scholarship, the knowledge that I have gained on them has been through colleagues, my colleagues, word of mouth, speaking to people. I first came across this in, in 2005 in Dawey in Lower Myanmar. I was in a, an ordination hall outside, a thing outside an ordination hall looking up and there was a portrait up on the upper part of the wall. It was getting dark. And I said, who's that? It was a figure of a man with a white beard and somebody said, it was a mohto. I said, oh, okay. And I just accepted it and later tried to investigate. Time moved on. And in 2015 at Tamo Choy Guji, a Pagan period temple uncovered by the scholar Tempa Wadi Uwen Mong. We then, he then took the time and the care to introduce me more to these temples throughout Upper Myanmar. And I really thank him for his help on this. And then finally, which is now hopefully to be published about the same time as our book here, my book called Wider Pagan, Wider Pagan, Ancient and Living Tradition, which is being published through ICS in Singapore for a very important contribution from Tempa Wadi Uwen Mong and Uwen Chain. So my investigation of mohto is still ongoing, but one that has been informed by local scholarship and local tradition. So I'll give you some examples here. What have I used or what has come to me to be able to document Ahsoka? Local testimonies, interviews, not interviews, but speaking, just talking with people in different temples, oral histories, and particularly Pahat Maan, which is often written by Pagoda trustees, or local scholars, eminent scholars, appointed by the Pagoda trustees. They're often dismissed by archaeologists. They're repetitive, they embroider checks, but they're believed by the local community and they have been used to help sustain stupas from the Pagan period, at least if not with the presumption that buried within these contain the relics of Ahsoka. There's many stupas around this particular one. This is near Chowkse, but they're not mohto. This one is. So why this one and not that one? It's one part of my application of them. Many of them are then linked to Sh'ar'ahan, because it's Sh'ar'ahan that is then credited with having introduced the Ahsoka tradition of the 84,000 stupas to Anurata. It's often said how he went in texts, in chronicles, how he went up and promoted Theravada, but it's also noted that it was with him that this tradition then became part of the Upper Myanmar repertoire. The position of Sh'ar'ahan went on for the reigns of several kings, the leader in reciting the Purita, many, many occasions. This is one I simply mentioned where within small villages and towns you go, this one simply reminds us the poster on the wall of the teachings of Sh'ar'ahan and the difference that they can make to one's future. This is another example near Mekthila, southeast of Mandalay, where you see a circuit here. There's a nodal point at the bottom. It moves up and around, and within the full moon of Wazo, many pilgrims must complete this route whilst reciting the Patan, whilst reciting the conditional relations so in order to receive enlightenment. Some of these Sh'ar'ahan are also Mokdol. This is another one that's east of Mandalay. You see the area up here, the map on my right. You see Mandalay to the left. It's to the east approaching over to the hills there. Attributed in the 12th century, Min Shinzo, who during the Pagan period, he was crippled and exiled from the court and became a benefactor helping to to promote the area. Later poisoned by the king Narathu when he believed him and went back to Pagan for a dinner. But it's one example of the patronage that has gone to the continuation of Sh'ar'ahan, not within major cities. I'll show you one of a city, but within small villages across Upper Mama. This is one where we see always within the interior an image of Sh'ar'ahan with the Trapeitaka preaching and promoting the sense of propagation and sustenance of the Sangha and the Dhamma. This one is on the east edge of Mandalay. I'm talking about Sh'ar'ahan introducing at Pagan. But what about Pagan itself? Interestingly enough, there are only a few examples of the Mokdala Zedi at Pagan. They're generally already encased. You see one example here within this rebuilt stupa. And in this map that I included in my article, you can see within the numbers, it's only 8, 9, 10 and 13. So 8, 9 and 10 are in the upper part of the Pagan area. And 13 is there on the south. It's number 13, which is the most well patronized. They're known, but not a center of worship. It's really outside, which is why I called this paper Relics at Pagan and Wider Pagan. These, the Mokdala are part of what's a wider study by my colleague Mionian Aung, who's working on his PhD for Silpecorn. He's very much an archeologist and architect who is defining the different types of encased stupas within the inscribed city of Pagan, according to their architectural plan. This is one you see very here, a single encasement, which is by the river, South of Mincaba, taken by one of my students, Teng Teng Aung at Pagan. Within Mionian Aung typology, it is not the tradition that I'm considering, but the architecture in defining the Mokdala Zeddi as being those that have a circumnavulary corridor around the inner stupa, and only those that give evidence. I would argue that there's more criteria that actually work to sustain these. There are a few within murals. This is one of the Thechamuni, the 13th century temple. It was kindly provided to me by Dr. Dillian Handlin. But where we do see, and this in fact is probably one of the four itruth relics that are found at Pagan, being worshipped by two devotees, and this rarely preserved painting. At Pagan itself, again, thanks to Teng Teng Aung, the Mokdala stupas are known locally. They're labeled, this one if you read the Burmese literally says it's a Mokdala Zeddi, gives its number. The gate is closed as it often is. And this one happens to be near a petrol station, so which they provide good support. You see even there's even chairs out in front. My odd point is not to decry the restoration, but to assess and to appreciate the impact of that sustenance over many, many centuries and how it continues today. Very, very much so. Particularly at Pagan now, UNESCO has pulled out and the sustenance is very much, and in some ways interestingly, so developed locally, not necessarily to the benefit of the archeological conservation, but the living side is moving back within local communities. This is Shwe Mokdala, number 194, where we always see an outer stupa, but inside and indeed this one deserves, gets then listed by Myeong-Nut Aung, because we have a small circular ambulatory space around it. This is another one, 920, perhaps the most richly endowed, not within an inner stupa, as you see here at 194, but within a temple. The Mokdala is beyond Pagan, and this is me with colleagues in the evening at one of them, I think have become very much repositories of the re-dissemination of relics through local belief, but at the same time, reiterate a deepness rooted in the landscape. These are particular places that I think then link to a network of the 84,000 globally. They form very much in that sense, both a tangible and intangible interdependent network. You see here some of the examples, and the most northern, most number one up at the top, Michina in Kachin State, down to the south, number 24 in Dawe. So they're scattered around the country, known to other local people, but not necessarily to other communities in different parts of the country. So the knowledge and sustenance is local. I think in this sense, we can call them places of special meaning. This is a painting within Shwe-Yem-Mio, the second to the last one that I'd like to bring to you, where we have recognition of Shin-Arahan coming, and then later patronage, brought to the temple by Tianzita in supporting this earlier donation of relics. They're not sectarian, and in this I drew upon, actually it was a review, a review by Nikola Revere of one of archer and furious works in trying to understand, to put things within a sectarian definition. He was looking at images of the Buddha. These are not sectarian, but in some aspects they are, in that this network of motel places have a special meaning that's sustained within that origin, and it's ritual and social function. So in that sense also, they honor archer and furious being able sensitivity to drawing out more in elements within Thailand and Myanmar, and more in traditions. This is Shwe-Yem-Mio, a painting from the walls, showing both the, an unsigned 20th century painting with two monks together with King Athoka and the Jaman, or Saka, in depositing Athoka's relics. The history of this motel pagoda then has a later part to it when She-Arha is returning to Pagan from the Shantlato. He passes this way. It's a small ruin, stupid at that time, and finds a mound that he previously supported in a previous life. He'd once been a bird who came and destroyed an immense fly that was large as a pea fowl and took on radiant colors. So you see that fly here. And in fact, the name of the temple, Shwe-Yem-Mio, Mio is longing to be back looking towards, and the Shwe-Yem is the golden fly. So he's given his name and he's quite a, over a meter high, quite a prominent part of the temple platform. Shwe-Yem-Mio also supports nearly life-sized sculptures of different pattern patrons. King Atoka, She-Arha, here's the stupa itself. So you look at the stupa, you wouldn't know. There's no way to know without having been introduced into the local history that this indeed is a Mok-Do Stupa. The same thing with the Shwe-Then-Do, East of Chaukse, which is attributed to Anarata, where we see this beautifully maintained and also we see within the, this guardian cage that you have down here on the right, there is one of the original Thane or the Ordination Hall stones dating back to the time of Anarata. And it was notable to me that there was the interest in care to not just preserve it, but to encase it within a chrome cage. The temple, again, is well, well patronized. You have here on its outside, a large sculpture, 3.5 meters of Anarata. And it's one of the most patronized for its annual ceremony, wish-fulfilling ceremony, where coconuts and bananas are brought. So to bring this to a conclusion, these are just the, the yuaji, the important people of the town, become this line of all the patrons of the living heritage of its deposition of the 84,000 relics. My main underlying point with this is to raise the value or to raise attention to the living history as a valid source of heritage and looking not simply at text, but looking at local practice over the years. What I would say, which I introduced at the start, is the authority of local tradition that in envisioning the unseen past, I haven't shown you relics, I haven't even shown you relic chambers, but there's a knowledge of those 80, they're part of the wider community and the local perception of that. Link to Shinarahan, and not at odds, but very much what one could call anemic view of the moan contributions to Pagan in elevating the local history to decode the past perception because that perception has been sustained not just today, but in the past, in the present, on the ground, in the villages and towns of Burma. This comes back, this is Anurata, the Shui Yun Miao. So I thank you, and I'd like to end with also a thanks and dedication to the late Moan scholar, Usan Winn, who I noted with his study of Tuwanabumi, but also my very, very great thanks to Acharampurea and the editors of the book for including this study of living culture within our forthcoming volume dedicated to the scholarship of Acharampurea. So thank you. Thank you very much. Do I get critiqued? That'd be good. Okay, thanks. No, it's okay. No, I should. No, I should. Yeah, no. We did the last one. Well, may I thank Professor Moan for her excellent paper. I'm greatly honored, it's included in this because it's broadened our knowledge, not only of Burma, sorry, Bienma, between Bagan and more countries, but also is applicable to Chiang Mai as well. So if criterion was the architectural of an encased stupa, then we have plenty in Chiang Mai. Even though we don't have the local history to go with it, but the art or architectural history of the stupa itself would of course confirm of your thesis. So we can use it. And of course, local tradition can also be very well utilized in Thailand as well. So this paper doesn't only deal with Bienma, it's also deal with Thailand, and we can use it. Thanks to you. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you. That's my comment. Okay. Thank you. I just comment, just a little comment. It's just so totally fascinating. And you already answered whatever is going to ask is about the caskets in each of the stupa. It has to have containers. Can you just address a little bit of generic type of what do you find that they use when they excavated the stupa? Do they find the container of relics inside? Can you address on any kind of forms that they use in that region? Because like the legend had it say it's in the shape of a bird, something like that. Do they talk about it or have you found any of those in any of these encased stupas? What was the third? The Shweta Gong container of relics. The Shweta Gong. Yes. But then how about in the Mon region? Have you seen or do they talk about specific shape of relics? Relic carry, right? Relic container. Do we know anything about that? Thank you, Pat. No, that's a fascinating question. No, I mean, I have heard that the relics at the Shweta Gong are floating underneath. There's the hair washing stupa and there's waters because it's in the Delta areas and that they're floating within a casket. There's a small golden casket at the bottom. This was and somebody was said to have gone there down once and seen it. However, within lower memo, the only relics I've actually seen are visiting meditation centers within Yangon where you often see doctor. You know, the doctor can be simply small, small pellets or rice like grains. But the relics can also be, I've been to a number of reconsecration ceremonies where additional relics within the Mon State, one near Chai Katha were re-installed and new relics were added to the Chai Kyo pagoda in 2000. The relics included ones that actually depicted the eight different directions so that they don't aren't necessarily just rice type relics, but they're usually gold or silver reliquary objects that are then added to the tabana to the relic chamber. So that I think that strictly speaking, the relics are small, small little pieces, but in fact speaking, they also include many, many votive tablets that were interred as relics and some that look, for example, found in Lower Myanmar in in Dawey where they're inscribed on the back so that those inscriptions in a sense then they become text relics. So that they do, they do reach out to the different types of relics defined by the Buddha. So yes, it's an interesting, something I'd like to look at more. Thank you very much. Okay, thank you. Elizabeth, can I ask whether the ceremonies associated with them are going on today? Yes. During the interruption in the cycle of ceremonies, I can see signs of very large ones. Are those still committed under the current emergency conditions? They're held locally and held informally. There's no foreign visitors and there's usually not any official presence at them. But yes, it was my comment that I think under the present conditions where not only UNESCO, but all international projects that have been building up at Pagan are suspended until that something has worked out in the country. But that local care has taken over so that in many cases I was just sent the other day to a picture of a new stupa that previously was a mound. And it has now become the most popular place in all of Pagan that a woman had a dream that a naga gave birth to a young baby boy. And so there's a large image of a naga here and the whole shrine filled with offerings including candy and stuff for the young child so that over time, sadly it's also bringing detention and other very difficult things, it seems to have built up a local sustenance less so the large state ceremonies which are only attended by those in charge right now. So yes, there's a gap between different practices. Thank you. Sorry, one small excuse me. Well, I haven't mentioned you but can I put it again, sorry. Yes. The Mokta stupa are certainly not sectarian as a Janperia advocate. Okay, it is certainly sectarian is a terrorist in Buddhism but it's a long story. Sorry. No, that that was somewhat of a hedge because by introducing that I meant to say well maybe they are they're not they're not Mahayana or Theravada they're their own locally evolved sect but how to fully define them so yes I perhaps I shouldn't have put that in the article. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yes. They are sectarian. Okay. Okay. Yes. In a way maybe they bring out and a new definition of what sectarian is. Okay. All right. Thank you. Okay. All right. Well, critique. Thanks. Follow up on the present situation. One of our alumna in Baghan tells me she's trying to survive. They haven't had electricity for three weeks. This seems to be seems to rule out a great deal of what would happen if the electricity was cut. I mean, I'm not going to be on my where they love festivals and I love parades in the streets and so. Is that is that your impression? Well, yes, it's a problem because the electricity cuts are not announced. And so one doesn't know exactly when the electricity will be cut or when it will come back up and and the local currency has. I think worth half of what it used to be worth. I mean, you know, I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that. Slowly, but. But the festivals and the ceremonies do continue. Not with. Maybe less loud, you know, less electricity, but yes, no, it's, it's an extreme. And I think a growing economic hardship that's being imposed. I think there was one, one thing missing is, you cannot assemble many people together. So that that's also, you know, people don't want to go because if there are more people, they get scared. That's one of the reasons. It's fine. Besides financial. And other issues. I think that's one of the things that I would say that about the people gathering. The nervous. Thank you. Yes. I'm not the deny from the mark. Yeah. But I've been here for so long. Thank you. Okay. Thank you very much. Should we move on to the next paper? My name is Peter shark. I've been in so as for about 20 years. I'm sorry, I couldn't get earlier. Unfortunately, the. The problem with blended learning programs is that you're either here or you're there. So you're racing between the two for sure. I live quite close. I managed to do that. But at this time, if you're unfortunately means very few students on campus. So all this wonderful. All these wonderful presentations which are being recorded. So we'll put them up and we'll draw our students' attentions to them. We'll not be lost. And I gather we got a couple of people coming in internationally as well. Although we can't take questions from them. My. Great experience of a child. Pilla was. When I was privileged to edit the English version of his book, which was so long ago that he's forgotten. But we had a, we had a long exchange of views on various. Identifications of. Of Buddhist. In the, in, in, in Pira's book, which was a very, very important one at the time. I mean, honestly, his work has been, has been the great. Illumination. Of Thai Buddhism. Buddhist history. He, along with Hiram Woodward. Are the two great. I think. I think Pira was Harvard and. Woody was. Yale. So we got the two together. Looking at Thai art. And the collection in. The, that Woody was. Curator of so long in, in the United States was one of the main major collections, the Griswold collection. And his work on that. Really. Was a massive contribution to. Academic. Work on, on Thai art. Followed of course. By. Pira's work. So thank you for, to Nicola for organizing a splendid book. In honor of Pira's. Contribution to the field. I can't believe what it. The literature says about his age. Because he looks at least 20 years younger than me. But. There we are. It's a, it's a point in life when. The community acknowledges. The great contribution of an exceptional mind. In the subject. My small contribution. Is on this figure. I've written about the Naga. Buddha in Cambodia. In Cambodia. Which is. Pretty ubiquitous. And I think we generally get it wrong. It's normally. Said to be a mutual in the Buddha. Because it refers back to the story. In either the second or sixth week. Of the Buddha's life after, after his enlightenment. His full awakening. When he was meditating beside the mutual. In the Buddha. And a serpent which lived in the lake. Understood. The Buddha. Understood meditation. And knew also had a good weather forecast. Because he saw. An unseasonal storm approach. So. He came out of the lake. Wrapped himself around the Buddha. Who was gone. Who was. He was in meditation in his new state. Learning to live with. The knowledge on the. Of his new being. The status that he'd achieved. It was still new to him. He was he was. He was experiencing it. And not much of him was left in the samsara. Beside the river. So the snake. Just wrapped around him. Put his hood over the top. And protected him solely to the storm. So that's the. Story. And that's very much. Current. In Cambodia today. In Thailand today. And in Myanmar. Today. So the main. Teravada. Communities. Immediately. See. Mutual India. When they see. A Buddha seat on Naga. However. These Nagas. Were created in the. Mahayana period. Of Angkor. So the. The period of the apogee. When. When Buddhism. Took over. As the lead religion. From shy. In Angkor. And. And. So what was the place of. Mutual India in the Mahayana. Well. Almost non-existent. The Mahayana was into philosophy. Was into. A cosmic defining a cosmos. Of many. Buddhas. And. And. And was concerned with ways of. Interacting with them. The Mahayana. The Mahayana. The Mahayana. The Mahayana. The Mahayana. The Mahayana. The Mahayana. The Mahayana. The Mahayana. Remember. The Mahayana. There is no good thing. I was talking with them and. Achieving. An equal status with them. So the idea of. Changing yourself. To achieve the other much higher state. And not having to go through samsara. Was common to all good as a man. It was certainly there in the Mahayana in. Angkor. So. Why. Does this. Oh, here we go, here we go. So it was a major icon, it was ubiquitous. I've illustrated here the wrap around Muczelinda, which is a panel from Gandara, which is in the Victorian Albert Museum in London, and quite a well-known one. What was the significance of relating the Buddha to serpents? Well, it was, it's something very profound in humanity. Apparently, man venerated trees because of their force, their height, their power, and their importance in life. And serpents, because serpents could live under the earth, and serpents like dragons in Chinese mythology could also fly, travel through the sky, and reach the higher realms of the universe. They were important for producing rain. So if you saw a naga cloud, it was one of those big dark ones. We had one in London this morning or this afternoon. And those were highly prized. And any king needed a piece of territory with a naga known to be in it so that it would be fertile for the people. So that was the linkage between the Buddhas. And I'm suggesting here that there was a Buddhist reassurance to local cults of trees and Buddhas in the ancient world that gave their gods and beliefs, showed that they would be respected in the new philosophy and religion which was entering. Because the Buddhists were active in particular eastern and north eastern India and up in Bihar in settling hunter-gatherer communities into more sophisticated agricultural sites where they helped them with dams, rivers, river, water management, anything which was technology, the monks had it. So they helped the people settle. And that was, I think, why the Buddhists wanted to say, please join the Buddhist community. Please come and listen. Please help our monks who are not allowed to work in the fields like you are. But come with all your own baggage. It doesn't matter. Come into the Buddhists, under the Buddhist parasol because it's an open and inviting community. And we will help you. So there are lots in the early Indian sites, some parts of which are in the British Museum nearby. Here we are. Have Buddhas seated on Nagas. This is Amaravati. And on the stupa dome, there is a Buddha here in Abhaya Mudra, I think, seated on a double hooded cobra, if that's what the snake is, being venerated by people and various other ones. And also in many of the reliefs in these early sites, there are Nagar Rajas and Nagar Queens, so that the underworld of the Nagas was deeply respected by the Buddhists. These were ancient beliefs and they appear very often alongside the Buddha in the reliefs in eastern India, in Andhra. So I've made a small contribution to this Festschrift for Acharn Piria by suggesting that the Khmer Buddha seated on the Nagas may in fact bring the Khmer Buddhist community closer to that of Japan, Korea, China. Because Cambodian art history and archaeology is difficult because in the tropical climate, lots of things were lost. There aren't many texts that have survived. If writing was not inscribed on the temple wall, it's probably lost. However, it was a highly literate society. The inscriptions in the period of Jayavarman VII in the 12th century, there is 1181 to about 1218, a long reign, returned to Sanskrit and it was an excellent Sanskrit. We have some Sanskritists here. The Pimianakas inscription written by one of the queens of Jayavarman is said to be the most perfect in terms of the way it is written and in the grammar with which it is written. And that queen, Indra Devi, was the head of an orphan's school. So she took in the orphans who lost their parents and she taught them everything including Sanskrit. So that gives you an idea that this was a literate society but we've lost unfortunately most of the literature. We've also lost quite a lot of the iconography because it's been destroyed. It suffered through the periods of history and it was a long time ago and Angkor was built in the middle of a large tropical jungle. There are portraits which are of interest and two queens and the king himself who appear which we think the veridical, the life portraits, we think were also erected in the Bayon State Temple. This was a huge temple. Construction began at the beginning of the reign and the 1180s and continued through, presumably to the death of the king. That was traditionally it wasn't finished, no temple ever was. But the building would continue until the king died and then they would all work on the funeral, the huge funeral for the royal funeral when he would receive his posthumous title. The king would depart and begin his duty to protect the state in the next life, wherever that was. It could be with Vishnu for Suri Varma in a second or with Jaya Varma and he went to the Buddhas somewhere. His posthumous title says that. And the temple would therefore be left unfinished and the next king would come and order new, the royal carvers and architects to build something else. So we have portraits of the king and his queens and princesses which look like veridical photograph portraits. And we have others where they have Amitabha figurines on their heads. So these are distinctive and a figurine on the head would probably suggest rebirth in Sukavati. Sukavati is the western paradise of Amitabha. Now Avalokiteshvara is a leading religious figure in Angkor at this period, really, everywhere. And Amitabha is only mentioned in 10th century inscriptions. After that the name doesn't appear again, which is strange, but the icon is there, no name, silent. It seems plausible to me that the Jinnah Amitabha of the western paradise may well be represented in this icon, which is 3.6 meters high and which came from the central sanctuary of the bayon. And there we have a Buddha seated in meditation in Amitabha's position on the coils of a naga. So no inscription as to the identity of the Buddha and the normal thing today is to refer back to the Mucha Linda story, which is current in Buddhism in the country today. Here are some of the icons. In the center is the king, that's a portrait with his head pulled into a ball at the back of his head. It's a very distinctive face. He was a powerful man who was a soldier. He campaigned in Champa for at least a decade before taking the throne, driving, indeed, a Cham expeditionary force out of Angkor. And this is his first wife, who is Jaya Raja Devi, who died young. She was born into a Brahmins family, like her sister. That's why they had such excellent Sanskrit. And she was ill. She missed her husband who was absent in Cambodia and in hiding, and she died young. The portraits, the only portraits we have of her are on, have the Amitabha figurine in the hair. So the suggestion is that she has become part of Pragya Paramita, the goddess of wisdom in a Buddhist location in the afterlife. This is the full portrait of the king, now in the National Museum. So there we have a close-up. It's an individual face. This is very unusual, rather drawn, the wide mouth, a drawn face, a powerful, quiet, and intense woman, which is what the inscriptions say about her. Now portraits began, portraits when anew. The Khmeras seemed to have invented them. And before Jaya Varma and his queens, we have a portrait of Surya Varma in the second. This is on the southern wall gallery of Angkor Wat. And this is the king with, again, a quite distinctive face. Photograph is not that clear. Talking to his ministers and their inscriptions saying that one of them is the minister for defects. This was a brilliant building society, building the largest temple on earth in Angkor Wat for this very difficult king who spent his time he only built one temple and he spent his time on military campaigns throughout the region expanding the empire. We know it's him because of all these, the 14 parasols above him. And just in this top corner, there is an inscription which says, in the Kali yoga as a southern face, that's the present face, the present day gallery of Angkor Wat. There's the inscription. It says, his majesty, supreme sacred feet, lord. So his head is close to the sacred feet of the deity. He is the closest. So when he bows to the god or the Buddha, he is the closest representing all his people. Parama Vishnuloka, gone to Vishnu's world, was pleased beyond Mount Shivapada to dispatch his troops. He was a military king. And this was on the way to Hanoi. It's one of those expeditions. So he went up to Wat Phu on the Thai border to send off the troops. And there's a large military parade which follows this picture here. And one of the people on an elephant is the king again. So this is a portrait. This is the Jayavarman portrait I spoke about before. And this is a head which suddenly jumped out of me in a volume that I was reading on Angkor. And I thought, I know those features. This is the same face. But there are differences. And the differences are all up here. But there is a Buddha-style curls done in the Khmer way in the hair, very formalized, not at all like the straight shortcut hair on one side. And behind it, the ascetic hair of a bodhisattva is covered by lotus buds. That's a standard courtly religious garb in the culture. And in front of it, there is a figure. And by looking at the bottom of this figure here, we can see that it's in meditation mudra. This is presumably Amitabha again who's been removed. Now, it was probably removed when the Theravada moved in from Thailand and the Mahayana and the kingdom gradually collapsed. And appropriate heads were adapted to appropriate usages. Now, here is the French record. This is July 1950 in the Tepranam temple, which is a Theravada shrine, which is still very important today. This was one of many heads which were found in the pedestal. So if broken parts of sacred statues would be embedded under new icons that were built, it's an accumulation of sanctity into the new icon. Because you know that underneath that are all these pieces of broken but still important sacred remains. And there are some of the many heads found reburied in a way, ritually reburied and preserved and conserved in the pedestal under the new icon. Now, Olivier Cunin, who, as I said, knows almost every stone in Angkor, has lived there for the last 20 years and is quite an extraordinary encyclopedia of everything in this period. His PhD was on Jai Varma's period. He looked at this Buddha, which was found in Angkor Wat, in the Hall of Thousand Buddhas. When the Theravada arrived in the 16th century, the Khmeres came back, pushed the ties out, because the ties had come in from Paiutia, and they dedicated Angkor Wat to Buddhism. So they put Buddhas at the top and they built a Hall of Buddhas. Any icons that were found were installed in the Hall of Thousand Buddhas. And what Olivier did was looking at this icon in the conservatory in Siamria, he noticed that this body on this square base was very, very close to the body of the king, but not the face and not the head. And as you can see, the head is not a very good fit. So he took this head and tried it on this face with high-tech photography, not removing a head and putting a new one on, but measuring all the points in minute detail and concluded it was a perfect fit. So he gave a talk, a lecture to the Royal University and asked the Apsara authority to please put the right head back onto the icon. Nothing has happened yet. It's not an easy matter, removing the head of a Buddha and replacing it with another. But the case is there, nothing yet has been done, but it seems to be a perfect fit. Now Olivier's then chased up where all these icons were found in different sites in Angkor. All the pieces, here's the head. Tapram had a few, these are the queens and Tepranam is there. And that's his record of where the pieces are in the conservation where they were found going through the records. The French records are very good. And here are two more. So there is the one I've already showed you where he's put the head back onto this one. Here's another one, which is slightly larger with another identifiable amitabha knee and hand posture on the top. So my surmise is that we are looking at a posseumus portrait of the king. And the dedication to Avalokiteshvara is unquestioned in this period. The whole western gallery of Angkor, Bantieh-Chemar temple, which is the second largest in the largest actual complex in Cambodia is near the Thai border. And it's being restored now happily or several of the walls are going up. Eight more than life-size pictures of Avalokiteshvara are facing Sukavati in the west. This is a major statement about the power. And it's the Karanda Vyuhasutra, which in some phases places Avalokiteshvara even higher than anyone else. The whole cosmos of Buddhas is in Avalokiteshvara's body. And he visits the Buddha locations all around the cosmos. So it's a Mahayana notion of a massive cosmos and a huge role for Avalokiteshvara in it. Now the portrait of the queen, why is she kneeling? Well, I think she has not become the goddess of supreme wisdom. She has not become praknya paramita, but she seems to have gone into the realm which contains praknya paramita. Now the archaeologists have been scanning the bayon to see where these icons could have been, looking at every mark on the floor, on the stone where they could have worn. And Christophe Potier from the FAO wrote a very good paper called The King in His Temple, where he was finding the most likely places, ooh, that was a wrong touch on the wrong thing, wasn't it? Press? Press that one. That one? The one to the right. Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. So this is, Olivier did a minute study of exactly, of all the sanctuaries in the central sanctuary of the bayon and reached the conclusion that it was this one at the bottom, number 15, where the portraits would have been installed. This was a matter of measuring post holes, worn spaces on the ground, and so on. So not right next, the Buddha was, the Naga Buddha is here. Potier thought it was there, next to two inscriptions. And Olivier has concluded that no, they were down here in 15. This is what Michel Gauvin tells me about the Amitabha cult in East Asia to try and compare the situation in Angkor. He says it's based on these three scriptures, basically. Fundamental to the spread of the faith and the possibility of rebirth in Amitabha's pure land. And to the late emergence in Japan of a pure land school around 1200 CE. Now, oddly, that's exactly the time that the bayon was built and constructed and the Naga Buddha, the 3.6 meter Buddha was installed in it. At the same period that this pure land school was establishing itself in Japan. Now, Elizabeth is talking about how Buddhist communities always network. They always communicate with each other. Well, they do internationally too. So it's quite feasible that this great kingdom in Angkor was in touch with Japan. The non-exclusive devotion to Amitabha was already diffused in Japan and became particularly influential among aristocrats around the 10th century. In Angkor, an alternative route to rebirth in Sukavati was via the Baishajaguru Sutra, the sanctuary of Baishajaguru. That's the medical Buddha. This king built 102 hospitals, the first national health system in the world in 1865. And the medical Buddha was present in all of them, a triad of visited hospitals in Northeast Thailand with Nikola some years ago. And the museums out there are full of images of the medical Buddha and two bodhisattvas that were helping him in the hospitals. In the Bayon, this is where the Naga Buddha is. This is where the king was. And that is the special sanctuary to the medical Buddha that was so important in this culture. So having learned how to cure yourself through medical rituals with Baishajaguru, you could also step to Sukavati, that having been made whole, the objective was to go to the Western paradise. And this is Gregory Shopen saying, the master of medical, this is his PhD. The master of medical remedies text conveys a deep affiliation with the cult of Amitabha and the Sukavati Buddha field, Buddha Kshetra. So it looks like, although we didn't know it, we've been looking for a long time at a Buddha seated on Naga throne in Angkor who was probably Amitabha, venerated by a king who was seeing himself going there in his next life and his two queens. So much, I would like to tell the Japanese that have been working for about 30 years now on stabilizing the Bayon, that inside here was a pure land's cult of Amitabha, much like you have back home in Japan. And I'm sure they would be delighted to learn it. Okay, thank you. Questions? A Chan is going to... Oh, comment, thank you, please. Discussant. Well, thank you very much, Dr. Sharab, for introducing new invitation into the Bayon. Well, of course, as you know, I'm a great fan of Amitabha and I warmly welcome you into the fold. However, explanation has to be more precise on the Naga aspect. That is still difficult. I'd agree with the kneeling posture. Why should the goddess Prachayaparamita be kneeling? I think that would go on your way. I would support your argument, because the 22-hand or something Prachayaparamita is more correctly, Chi. You know, there's multiple hands. That would be the goddess. But why should this lady kneeling with Amitabha in front of her shinium? I would agree that it does support you. Also, I would like to add that we do have an image of the Buddha seated on a lotus, a very big one in a Lopuri museum. Amitabha is Amitabha. And on a stalk, on which is the lotus flower, and he's sitting on it. It's a very big image. So that would seem to support your idea on the new excavation at Bang Melia. You would have to feed in the Naga somehow. So I would leave the Naga for you to do more work. Yes, to explain it. It's a traditional explanation. I think it's not sufficient for most people. It has to be... In fact, it's a Naga in the Khmer tradition. It has to have some texture. The best thing to do is to have texture support for the Naga. Somehow, that is still a problem medical. But thank you very much for your very bright and brilliant idea to further our knowledge. And thank you for being brave to do it. Especially in this book. Thank you very much. Unfortunately, there is very little reference to Naga in the text. Naga belongs to the local culture and local belief. There are lots of stories about the Bayon. There was a Naga underneath the Bayon first. And they had to do long ceremonies to propitiate the Naga for the Naga. So I'm sorry, we're going to put this huge temple on your head. But these are from the middle period. And they are written, but they're not from the Angkor period. What are you saying now? It's a positive idea. Yes, but I guess... We have a microphone. Pierre? No, I'll come. Yes, I guess. Yes, where it's then that specific. Yes, very much the Naga is known throughout Southeast Asia in terms of construction, you have to be very careful because he's moving his head all the time. I think it's fascinating Peter, but I just, yes, it's, it's. It's just, yeah, looking more at the, the connection to the Naga and Amitabha, but maybe you don't have, we don't know. We have, we have one more paper. Yes, yes. I think we should begin immediately. Okay. But I thank you. Peter has, he shares with you a braveness. So, and then looking out and making new hypotheses that, I think uncovering new things. So thank you. I think in Japan, Amitabha is on a peacock. Oh, great. Thank you very much everybody. I'm going to keep my mask on. First of all, we always introduce ourselves right. Oh, my name is Patrick a faculty from California State University Sacramento in the US. And before I, when I was an undergraduate student, I was privileged to be the first, first students a year that Priya came back to teach in Thailand. So he was not only just my, my advisor, but he was my thesis advisor and wrote letters of recommendation for me to go study abroad. I ended up with my PhD at Cornell University. And the reason that I went to the US was because Prince Pat, my uncle, wanted me to go study like Priya, to go to study in the US instead of in France. So, because of him, I follow his footsteps closely to these days. And even to these days, I still read every single book that come out and use that religiously. Thank you. So since I'm the last person and there's supposed to be an event at five, right? And it's already five minutes to five. I'm going to, pardon me, 10 minutes. Okay, so my story is about the earth daughters. So what happened was that three years ago, I was had to be in quarantine at the Royal Hotel in Bangkok and it was 15 nights. So right in front of my windows, guess what? So I'm talking about Mayor Praterani, the Thai name is Mayor Praterani. Okay, so this is the shrine. Every single day, I saw people coming in from early in the morning until the evening and they would bring very beautiful cloth that they put on the image. So you can see here. This is the old picture of when the image was built. It was dedicated. The shrine was built by the head queen of King Julalongon who ruled Bangkok until 1910. The shrine was kind of merit making for his queen when she turned her 50th birthday. So this is a sculpture that the earth goddess ringing hair and the hair has water coming out. And this water actually was the first clean water from water pipe. Instead of in the olden days, people would go to the canal and drink whatever they find. This is what makes special because King Rama the fifth travel to Europe the second trip in 1907-08 came back and realized how important it is for people to have good source of water. So this was built. Every day, I saw people changing clothing and then people come and get water and put it on their head, blessing themselves. And then many times you will see the color change. People would choose the color that is either the color of their birthday or it means that if you are born on Monday, it's yellow Tuesday, it's the pink, you know, like that Wednesday is green, or it's the color that you like. So that became the color that they change here throughout the day. You can see I kept taking pictures of every single day. Or people would come and donate a little figurines of the Earth Goddess like that. So there's a gazillion of them around the shrine. And then, so this is the form that was created for the first one, okay, in this form. So I was curious after that, I became very obsessed with the Earth Goddess. So I said, I have to study Bhoomi Devi. So I went to temples and started seeing that. Well, in traditionally, in Thai art, if you go to see mural painting, you will see that the image will be placed with standing, ringing her hair, okay. And this is the Buddha meditating at the moment before he attained enlightenment. He reached out his hand calling the Earth Goddess. The Earth Goddess came up, rings her hair and flat out all this Mara, you know, the God of death. Okay, so you can see here. Here is either standing or seated. This is one is beautiful. You have to go see it in Bangkok, okay. And then, so then I started looking into sources. I look into Indian art like this is the one from Palasena period. I realized that in India, the Earth Goddess doesn't have anything to do with ringing hair and flooding Mara. But she just appeared, you know, at the throne very minor, minor role. So what is going on in Thailand? What I did was that I then found out that, so I'm panicked because I don't have time. So in late 19th century, you will see that she's going to change the role into killing the Maras through. And here I'm going to skip, okay, this is the beautiful temple. Note that if you want to see a good example, go to what Puttapati in Wimbledon. This is on the wall of that temple. Very nice, beautiful Bhoomi Devi there. All right, let's skip. So there's different forms and shapes. And then we, when did, so I start, when did we start seeing Bhoomi Devi appearing like ringing her hair? So the earliest one is from UTIA period, okay. So see this little bronze at the National Museum and you can see she's standing up and ringing her hair. So what is going on? Is there any textual sources that we can find? Well, the Indian use very different source. It's called, it's a Bhattama Sambodhi in Indian text, but in Thai Laos and Cambodia, it is a very common vernacular, what do you call it, canonical text, opposed canonical text that is quite popular in this whole region. But in Thailand, when King Rama the first became king, he actually has the Supreme Patriarch translated, compiled and translated it into Thai version called Bhattama Sambodhi, okay. So this short version is called that then again in Thailand, we have another version called a short or a bridge version that was done. And then the second one, the longer version that was done by Gronpa Purava Nusit Chinorot, okay, in around 1840s, okay, that's he did. So then because of that, we know that there's this textual sources that site precisely, if you're interested, read the text, the article, it says precisely of what exactly happened when the Earth goddess came, she rings her hair. So that became the source of this kind of iconographic representation of the Buddha in Thai art in the 18th century bronze that you can see from 1518. And as you know that in reality, the Earth goddess is a Hindu goddess who is the consort of Vishnu, right, okay. So because of that, she's actually is a Hindu goddess and main consort of Vishnu. And then later on you can see that, so this is from the Brahmin temple, you will see Lakshmi and Bhoomi Devi next to Vishnu. So textual sources, as I said, the short version and the long version. And then by the time King Rama III reigned, King Rama III decided that to have bronze casting of 26 new type of Buddha images. Then he had this kind of small images made there are only 10 centimetre and the King had it made and then this became very popular, small bronze pieces. If you want to see examples, go to the Darshanomusyama. This is one of those that has the Earth goddess ringing her hair. This is Rama III in the 19th century. So then in search of that, it's still not the same as the one that we see at Utokatan, the shrine. So where does that come from? This is the only one of seated figure ringing the hair. We don't know where the original placement of this this image is, but we know for sure that the queen actually after she decided to do this as an offering of water for people, it was Prince Narit who designed the image. So I don't know if this piece was in Wangna or not Ajahn, but it was actually maybe used as an example of the one that would be at Utokatan. So Prince Narit was the one who designed it. There's details of how who casted the image, okay, and then put it on the shrine with the structure that he also designed, Prince Narit designed. And you can see that there's gatha, so there's chanting that you can go there and you do your chanting. It is translated into Thai, also Sokali and Thai. If you are interested in that, look at the Appendix Trent Walker Help Translation. Appendix Trent Walker Help translated that for me. So then I went to different temples, so you can see that the Earth Goddess was inside of the temple before, right, on the wall paintings, but now these days from 1950 on, you will see that she became an image of her own right, not even inside of the temple anymore, but outside people come the first place that they would go venerate is the Earth Goddess. This is a very beautiful one at what Pichaiya with the gatha also. And then what Pantai Narasimh in Samut Pragrant, you can see different places, they pose a little bit differently. So you know the hair twitching on the left or on the right, but they're also standing ones, but this one is really amazing. This is the one in Chandapuri. You can, you want to see the scale is 18 meters. This is the biggest one in the world. And I saw a documentary when they were doing the blessing, the opening ceremony of this place. They didn't use monks to do the chanting. They used only nuns. They were dressing in white you know. So that makes me feel even more fascinated with all the whole thing. So she instead of becoming just part of the enlightenment, she became a goddess herself, the image that the Thai worship now in particular. You will see that this is the one in the 15th century. I'm drawing from different materials. This is actually very beautiful wood carving, but we don't know what happened to the image on top because the monks say that it floats in the river and show up by where this temple is at what Peru. The other side of it is Buddha footprints are done. It's Buddha footprints really beautiful. So we found this one at the Asian Art Museum of San Francisco that came out from Doris Luke Charitable Foundation. It is the biggest size. It's a hundred you know, a hundred by 400 centimeter. It's a painting on panel. This is the one, the detail of that. Sorry that I don't have time to explain. We find her up here on Buddhist manuscript. This is the one in the British Museum that has dated. And then we found her on a paper board here also halfway in northeastern region of Thailand. But being Thai, you know that Thai likes to wear amulets and all sorts of things. That's the way things go now. So she actually became most popularly worn by people. You can go to amulets market and buy the one that I say that has the most beautiful seated one. This is the one suit after. I was trying to go to that temple and ask to see if I can find the old one. And the amulet seller said to me, don't touch. You can see that but you cannot touch. This is the most difficult. So at this temple now they don't have this one. They have you buy this type instead. So this one I got to buy amulets with enlightenment. Then being Thai, everything has to change. We worship the spirit, right? So when you go now, this is surprisingly enough, not a temple. But it is part of a restaurant. So you can see from Naga to Bumi Devi, you know, the Earth Goddess to the spirit houses. This is very Thai. So we combine things. So she became a new performing a new role. So her role is her own role as the person who bring good luck and sent away bad luck from people, hell people, like recovering from pain and suffering. And of course you see her on tattoos. And this, this the Metropolitan Waterworks Authority also has her on is as you know, King your mother fifth was the one who established the department of waterworks in his towards the end of his reign. It was open in Ramadan six rain. But so that became the image of the logo of the Waterwork Authority. And even the Democratic Party, you can see that it is on the Democratic Party logo. So what I like to stress is that she gradually has transformed from a Hindu Buddhist goddess into a new role, a powerful spirit in Thai and a missing. Thank you very much. Thank you much Pat. Well, since I'm yours. Well, whatever it is. What are you, I was your supervisor, sorry. Advisor, sorry, advisor. I can, I have the right to ask you. What is missing is how come has a fountain has a fountain from your window you see a fountain and I take her as a fountain. How come has a fountain become a goddess. There must be from from fountain to goddess that must be a link of course it's written behind underneath the fountain linking it to the enlightenment. Yes. But that doesn't kind of explain why why she became a goddess for prosperity. Because it flushed away all the bad luck and fortune like that. Yes, but how could she flush it? So people didn't take her as being the beneficiary of water at all. No. Its original point is completely forgotten. Yes, exactly. That's why I said it's from Hindu God into part of the Buddhist story and then become Thai Buddhist. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Could I ask one brief question. Thank you. Fascinating paper I really enjoyed it. No, no you did well. In one part where the very the largest one you said that it was not women. But in all the other examples you show it's not particularly gender preferred. It's not women only that it's everybody. Okay. But I think the turning point was around maybe years ago when temple started having the own image outside of the temple. And how can you believe that there's chanting for her on top of that. So where does the monks come along? To when does the monks come along to consecrate it? Not the big one. No, no, but the presidents are creating the temple. What? Oh, yes. The temple, yes. Yes. But the one in the big one they had nuns chanting. The one who may have to traditionally they had to fast a couple of days before they could do have to very fascinating. Yes. Yes, I have a question. Two questions. One. Where does all the water come from? In Torani's hair. Yes, that's question one. Where does the water come from? Because she's an endless supply of pure piped water, very healthy. Secondly, you said that Krishna was associated with Bhudevi in India. You found Vishnu. I wonder if you haven't got another Bhudevi in the Ramayana where you have Rama and you have lots of Ramas in Thailand and Sita and Sita is also the goddess of the earth and she is called Plow and at the end of her trial by fire which many resent but she had to go through it after at the end of the story she went back to the earth and it was a very happy ending. Yours is much happier but I wonder whether you haven't got a cousin for Torani in Sita. Because she is not earth. Well, yes and no in some way but Sita, the reason she went back because she is the daughter of the earth so when she died she went back to where she came from but the earth goddess in the story that's very interesting though so the earth goddess in the story it become part of Buddhist story and gave her legitimize the Buddha at the moment as when people only attain enlightenment right so she is the one who came and helped the Buddha attain the the environment another person who asked me about the water the water came from the water the water came from the canal so you see that right next to the shrine is krong lord nobody in the story the water comes from the previous sacrifices of people for the Buddha and she collected them I think she collected all the water that the Buddha water of marriage in 537 lives so the four earth is mostly ocean yeah so Peter have you seen the shrine so it's actually right opposite of the hotel but it's right next to krong lord the canal and that canal was the source of where the water comes from but then the king started having this ministry water work that brought clean water and clean it and then coming out into the pipe so people can use it and drink and drink it so people actually went there to get clean water to drink and the shrine the dark areas got destroyed during World War II because of the bomb so because of that they had to fix the shrine later on so that's all things missing when I went to Laos every time I went into a temple there was Torani right at the front almost in front of everybody else and I said who is this lady it's always in your garden and they said this is the lady who saved the Buddha yes yes yes very important and she saved me for 15 days have nothing to do inside the hotel they said I asked the guys who work at the shrine what do they do with cloth that people donate every day because sometimes they say they got from 300-400 of them they actually take them to temples and the temples clean them up and give them back or they take them to village give them to people in the village thank you very much thank you so much for your comments and for your paper I think we were told there was an event that was being organized so we'll draw it to a close but if there's any final questions or I think everybody would be glad to talk to you further outside so thank you to those of you that came very good to see you and I think a fitting beginning our first I think of four events in promoting the books Nikola do you have any final see you in Paris okay thank you all very much