 to not let anyone tell you what your limits are, to fully explore the things you enjoy and try to make those into what you want as a job. Cara, welcome to You Are A Lawyer. Absolutely. Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to finally be invited on the show, the infamous show, infamous in a good way. Thank you. So you and I have a really long history, but it's a really good history. We met in 2012, 10 years ago. God, is it that long? We're old. Wow. We are. So just to catch y'all up, we are now both married. We are both mothers. We both live in different states from where we met. Okay. We've done a lot of stuff. And so, Cara, when I met you, you were my contract's TA. When I was a 1L, you were 2L. And our relationship has changed a whole bunch of times, but it's grown in it. It's been beautiful. And we'll talk about that. But would you share a little bit about your background with the audience, where you are, and what you are doing professionally? Absolutely. So I graduated from Southern University Law Center. Shout out SCLC in 2014. From there, I moved to Dallas, Texas, and worked for a few law firms there for about five years. And then after that, I moved to Washington, D.C. in 2019 to work for the Department of Veterans Affairs, working in their Office of General Counsel, and I do employment policy work, which I absolutely love. I've been there for about four years. And well, no, almost four years, yeah. I've been loving it ever since. I'm also a wedding planner, and I've been doing weddings since February of 2020. Actually, since before that, because I got married in January of 2019, and I planned my own wedding. And after that, that's what really got me interested to be like, you know what, I could do this for the further people, and they can pay me money. So I've been doing that for almost three years. I have about 12 weddings under my belt, some I've fully planned, some I've just coordinated. I'm also a mom to a wonderful daughter named Iris, who is almost 14 months old. And my husband Ben and I live in Prince George's County, Maryland. Yeah, so I'm, yeah, my life is pretty insane also. Absolutely. So are you working from home or do you still go into the office? So we're in a hybrid model right now, but it's like 99% of work from home. I have to go into the office at least twice a pay period. So pretty much once a week. So it's not that bad. And depending on like weather and circumstances, my bosses are pretty lenient about the work from home. So I work from home most of the time. And also, just as a full disclaimer, I am working in my daughter's room right now. As you can see, she has the best lighting. So in her background's cute. So here we are. It looks good. Don't even worry about it. So you said a whole bunch of stuff there, but to touch on you said employee relations employment policy, employment policy. Is that what you went to law school intending to practice when you got out of school? No, which I'm sure is most people's stories. I went to law school initially wanting to be a civil rights attorney. I was very, very passionate about it. And it was the thing I wanted to do. I kind of lost my way a little bit in law school. I did really well full disclosure. I did really well in law school. And I think what happened there was the people that were in charge of career services at the time didn't really show me different paths to success because I did really well. So it was like, you did well, you need to go to a law firm. And that's it. There wasn't really another path for somebody who was passionate about other things. And so I went to the law firm route because I listened to the people who were in charge and I hated it. And so when I finally got into the public sector working for the federal government, I ended up loving employment law because I had done employment litigation before and when I was at the law firm and I fell in love with employment and actually employment policy, the work that I do actually touches a lot on civil rights for VA as well because we're making sure that people have the employment policies in place that protect them, whether it be the race, sex, gender, etc. And so it actually kind of touches on both of my passion, civil rights and employment law. So it's actually a pretty cool position. But I did not have any inkling that this was even something that I could do when I started law school. I didn't know anybody that worked for the federal government. I didn't know anybody who did employment law. I didn't really know any lawyers, honestly. And so this is something that I ended up carving out for myself that I end up loving. Yeah. So I hope what the audience is hearing is that you can create your own path after law school, right? You go to school and you get the basic training you work hard. But then afterwards, it's really what you want to create, right? Your career is all in your hands. So I love that you did find something that you enjoy that married all of your interest. For sure. Yeah. Okay. So I had to talk about that because what I think is really, really cool is that you plan weddings. Now I've planned a wedding. I've planned my own. And immediately afterwards, I had to remember all wedding profiles, blogs, newsletters. No, for like seven months, I couldn't see anything. I couldn't see anything because I was, it was beautiful and we had fun, but I was so entrenched in it. I was like, I need to like a sabbatical. But you actually went the opposite route. You were like, Oh, this was great. I had a wonderful time. I could do this for other people. Yeah. People don't think that like, I want you to know that's really pioneering for you to say, I bet I could do this for other people. So what was that conversation like with your husband? What was it like when you said, Hey, I want to do this as well. So I, first of all, I am the oldest of three. So I have a planner spirit because I've just, I've been kind of the plant, my family planner for forever. So I, I plan pretty much all of our family trips. So I do a lot of planning in life. And so my husband kind of already knew that. And so going into wedding planning, he was like, Hey, these are the things I care about. But like, you go ahead and do what you want to do. So once we planned our wedding, he was, you know, I had the conversation about, Hey, like, I really think I could do this. And he was like, honestly, you're really good at it. I could totally see you doing it. And I support you. So, you know, he knows me well enough to know that if I didn't love it, I would not have chosen to make a business out of it. And he also supported me in that he knew that like, there are things that I'm, I'm really, really good at like logistics and planning and things like that. But I'm also, I struggle in some other areas where I need work in certain areas. And so he picked up the slack in those areas, like putting things together for people or making sure I make it to places on time or, you know, things like that. And so we actually kind of played off each other, but he fully supported me and said, you know, if this is what's going to make you happy, then totally do it. And so I started planning my first wedding shortly after we got married. Okay. And I ended up doing the wedding in February 2020, literally the week before COVID like shut everything down. So he ended up, it was Friends of Ours and I did it for free. And he ended up coming and helping me. So yeah, that's kind of how it started. And he's been a big supporter ever since. Yeah, you know, you love something if you'll do it for free. That is true love. Listen, and that wedding, it was, and it wasn't a mess because like anything had like my friends are amazing. They're still married. They have a daughter too. But their wedding, I mean, any and every obstacle that you could have gone through as a wedding planner, they had it, their venue canceled on them a month before the wedding. They had a rogue vendor who basically tried to take over my job and like just was a nuisance the entire time. You know, we had some decor issues, we had budget issues. I mean, literally, it was like a crash course. It was like, Oh, you want to do a wedding? Okay, cool. And on top of that, they're my friends. So it's like, it's easier to disassociate yourself from people that you don't really know that you're just working for them. But like, they're my friends. So I'm like, not only do I want this to be really good for just because of my brand, but also like, I love y'all and I'm excited for y'all to get married. So I want this to be amazing. So it was very, very challenging. And the fact that I wanted to continue after that led me to believe that I really, really did love it because it was, you know, it was a mess. Yeah, that's the true testament to it all that you've still been doing this for two years through all the challenges and stuff with COVID. And then is wedding business and wedding planning picking back up now that venues are open again? It is. And I did a bunch actually right after I had my baby, I did like two or three weddings this year. But I've actually kind of taken a step back. I think motherhood threw me for a loop that I didn't expect. And I don't think anybody expects what motherhood does to your entire life. It blows you up in amazing ways, but also like kind of bad ways too. And so I think I was stretched a little thin in trying to be the mother to a newborn and also like be an attentive wife and also do my actual nine to five and also be a wedding planner. And a lot of people that have been booking me were booking me for Atlanta or other like out of town weddings that weren't in the area. And so that I think was the tougher part because I was having to travel. So I've taken about a year off to just like recalibrate, figure out this motherhood thing, which I know is an evolving door, revolving door rather. Both. And is evolving. Right. I have to be honest with myself. Like I cannot do it all. Yeah. And trying to do it all stressed me out. I don't want to pull myself into too many directions because I want to be really, really good at what I'm doing and what I am focusing on. So all that to say, yes, wedding planning and weddings are picking back up totally, but the business is back. I mean, COVID is over as far as weddings go. Your company, the wedding planning company is called Wibberley and Co. Where did that name come from? Actually, Wibberley is my mom's maiden name. Oh, that's cute. Yeah. And it's, I've always loved the name Wibberley. And I actually thought about like naming Iris Wibberley. And I come from a long line of strong women who basically take charge and plan out their family's lives. So my mom is, is the oldest of six, really. And she and I are, are very similar. So we bump heads a lot. My grandmother is a middle child, but is very much a detail oriented. She, she makes jewelry. She organizes like everything. So she like completely redid my closet in my new house. She's reorganized my mom's entire pantry. I mean, she has a very good eye. She's also a really huge thrifter who can find like diamonds in the rough for real. And so I just come from a line of women who just do it. And so Wibberley is a testament to that. And so I wanted something that represented that. And honestly, the and Co just, I saw other wedding businesses called whatever and Co. And I was like, that sounds cute. And so yeah, that's where Wibberley and Co came from. Yeah, very cool. And so it sounds like you get it honest, planning and organizing, right? You got generations of watching that. I mean, the one thing that I keep hearing is that the beauty of being a business owner is it can get as big, or it can be as simple as you want it to be, right? If you have the option to do one or two weddings a year, if you want to, because you still have a full nine to five, right? Wedding planning is a side hustle. It's cool that you have that flexibility. Yeah, I agree. And I like the fact that it's very flexible because I am a super type A very much like go getter. I whenever I see something that I want, I go to get it. If I want something to happen, I go get it. And so it was hard at first to pull back because like I had to cancel one of the weddings I had planned for this year, I had to give them their money back because it just became too much for me. And I'm proud of myself for being able to do that and acknowledging that. But also it hurt me because I of course like wanted to do it and I love this, but I was like I can't and I had to have this conversation with them like I can't give you the service that you're paying for to the extent that I would want to. I can't give you my brand and I didn't want to sacrifice that and I wanted them to be able to find somebody who could. And so I gave them referrals, gave them their money back and also continue to help them as much as I could without actually being their planner. Yeah. I keep thinking about what you said about motherhood. Like we could do a whole podcast on type A mothers and how kids are just the antithesis of all of it. Like it's just mind boggling. And I'm like did people just not tell the truth about having kids before? Like what is this new brand of pandemic babies that are just like y'all thought the world was ending, but it's not. Now I'm gonna just like it's it's it's beautiful. It's a lot. Every day like at the end of the day my husband and I like we survived. We did it. And I don't know if other parents felt that way. They just weren't saying it. So it is great to hear you say it and that you could acknowledge that you were being stretched too thin and you could kind of pull back on stuff that was important. So. Yeah, absolutely. And I agree. I think the issue with parenthood in general is people can't fully describe anything until you experience it. It's just one of those things where it's like like you try to describe the feeling you feel when you birth your baby and the love that you feel immediately. It's just not something that anybody will understand until you've gone through it. So I think that's how parenthood is. It's like people be like you don't know and you're like whatever. It's not that bad. They just cry and poop and you're like oh it's a lot more. It's a lot more. And I think also the thing about parenthood is that it causes you to discover things about not only yourself and the way that you were mothered or parented. It brings out those insecurities in you. It also brings out all the insecurities in your relationship with the person that you have the baby with. And you're like it blows up your entire universe and it's just not something that you can ever anticipate or describe. One of my friends told me she was like some days I go hour by hour. And I'm like let me just make it to two o'clock and then I'll worry about four p.m. And I think that's such good advice for anybody who's a parent but also like a business owner or a lawyer or anybody who is working a job that they hate or that they you know what I mean like you just have to go hour by hour and come in for that time and whenever you're done with that time then you worry about the rest. It's incredible but also insane at the same time. Yeah that's good advice hour by hour because some days you can't think about four o'clock because you can't think about dinner. I saw a tweet and someone was like oh this is ghetto. I had this baby five years ago and I got to feed it every day and I was like yeah yeah I hadn't thought that part through. So Kara speaking of having a fresh perspective of things putting your own stamp on it doing it your own way we're going to talk about podcasting because you were talking about working in a law firm being miserable. My last time thinking about being in a law firm was pre-pandemic. I was hiding in evidence closet talking to you on the phone like I think I want to start a podcast what do you think and you're like I mean do it definitely do it but I think you should make a list and I'm like what what do you want to talk about and I'm like this and that you're like I think you should broaden it I think so you were a co-host of a podcast called millennial love you and two other hosts and I have to say you were the first black person that I knew who had a podcast you were I've seen people on tv you know you see all these things that of course I think they were like sports podcasts and stuff but like my podcast has been running for almost three years so yours was two years before that so you were definitely the first I mean you're posting pictures of you going to awards galas and you're I'm like oh people actually have full like podcasting is a thing it's not just a little episode you had all the stuff so what was that like I know that probably feels like it was five lives ago now podcasting like because you are a really big example to a lot of people who are watching you well I wasn't expecting that thank you um it does feel like a lifetime ago I mean we started millennial love in 2016 I feel like we started talking about it in the beginning of 2016 we started in early 2017 actually and then yeah you know podcasting was a beautiful experience for me I was in a very interesting place in my life where I was kind of in limbo I was in limbo with my current job I was in limbo with dating in my relationship I was dating my husband again for the second time um but I was also dating other people I was new ish to a city to Dallas, Texas I was building my community there but I hadn't immersed myself in everything Dallas so it was very like crucial limbo period where I could either like do really well after or like go downhill really quickly and I feel like the podcast experience it was like therapy for me like I was very very open and honest and I think like that's why a lot of people listen to our podcast because we were all pretty open and honest about our experiences in that time and what I realized was so many people were going through the exact same things we were going through like you think like you know you have your friends and like all of your friends are going through dating issues and stuff or all of your friends get married around the same time and have kids around the same time but that's a very small like microcosm of your world like having the podcast opened my eyes to the fact that like people in different countries continents whatever were dealing with the same stuff we were dealing with in Dallas, Texas little old me from Cecil Georgia you know and it was a really really cool experience that I don't think can even be recreated now because it was such a new landscape podcasting was I mean people have been doing it but it was a fairly new medium and we did really well it also taught me a lot not only about like people my age and like opening up the world to me but it also taught me a lot about business like we started in LLC it taught me that you can have an amazing product but if you don't get the people right it won't work and that's one of the things that I think we were young and ambitious and we just didn't think through all of the issues that could come in the future and so it's really a testament to me learning how to protect myself and businesses for you know the future and the longevity of whatever that product is so it was an amazing I mean millennial love was crazy successful like I looking back on it I didn't realize just how successful we were until I look at other like podcasts and stuff like that like our listenership was insane I mean we were getting millions of listens and I'm like it just blew my mind and in the moment it felt like we were like many celebrities in Dallas it's like people would see us out and they'd be like oh you're Cardi and I'm like oh yeah you know I just didn't understand the impact until I look back on it and it was a beautiful experience I would not trade it for the world I miss being vulnerable in that way to you know millions of people that don't know me and just opening up about things I do miss the podcast space which is why anytime anybody asked me to be on one I'm like absolutely I'm always on you know there's another podcast that I I've done several times called Hugh I Do which is a black wedding podcast that I love um and I was so excited when you finally asked me because I was gonna ask you but I was like no like you know she has her own thing like I'm not gonna ask her and so I was so excited when you finally asked me to be on it because I just I love the space and I also love the fact that you're doing this because you are a testament to fully carving out like for real carving out what you want to do um and doing it and just not taking no for an answer and doing it and I think that that's a beautiful space so congratulations to you thank you well I will say I got that from you I think because we went to law school in Louisiana I kind of had like a third eye for people who were not from Louisiana you know I mean even the people I still talk to now are not from Louisiana but we met in Louisiana right it's like the out-of-state students were all like what is this right that's exactly it what is this what is this so you were being very humble you guys were complete rock stars I remember I was like you know my best friend listening to Florida my cousin was listening and I was like oh my god Kara is getting married in January I get to go and they're like oh I'm like no remember I know her from law school because people were like oh my god you get to go and you know her wait wait wait what and then even I got married 2019 you came to that wedding and people were like Kara's here isn't she oh my gosh I'm like yeah you guys were you were definitely a big deal but not only was it because you were so authentic and vulnerable but like you were young like you I don't know the conversations when you guys decided to sit down and say let's do it but people were not doing that right reality TV was still going but it was starting to get really hot and then here are people free black people in our ears every week yeah talking to us about love and there is a special intimacy to podcasting because you feel like they're only talking to you right and that was what we were getting and we're just like it was beautiful it was definitely a movement even though your podcast was about relationships and love and I wanted to do one about the law I was like you were the only person I actually knew I could probably find a mentor on LinkedIn or something but I was like oh Kara's done it I gotta go to the source and ask her how and you were like oh no just do it just just do it and I was like okay well I'm glad you did and you're killing it it's a lot of fun it's a lot of fun and I think I appreciate it when people say you finally asked me because I'm always waiting for people to be like hey pick me pick me so I'm glad we finally were able to get together and record for sure so I have a couple of other questions for you from planning events or even from podcasting is there anything that you took from law school and the stories that you learned in law school that carried over into those different activities that is a good question I enjoyed law school and I enjoyed the rigor of law school which I know a lot of people are like whatever Kara what I would say I took from law school would be I think law school brings out either the best or the worst in you in those moments and I think my personal story is an insane one not only just about like you know what we're talking about but my past and my childhood and all of that stuff was like this like crazy insane structuralist thing that I had to create structure around to be able to survive law school taught me that I could survive and be amazing in a crucible basically doing well in law school gave me the confidence that I could overcome some other stuff and so it really was the like springboard for all the things I'm doing now I mean law school if you've never gone to a school where you only have one test at the end of the year or the end of the semester then six months of learning right one test and you can do well on that test and then after that not only do you got to go through that for three years but then you got to take another test that is all of those things combined into one for however many hours based on your state law school and and the experience of becoming a lawyer really shows you like what you're made of and either you're gonna excel or you're gonna crumble and really that's honestly the gist of it and that's what law school has taught me I think being in Louisiana might as well have been in timber too I mean anywhere where I was away from the people and the things that I knew most intimately would have been transformative for me I think Louisiana is and was a unique place I mean the food the culture I mean in Baton Rouge itself is very different than most people think New Orleans it's very very different it's a beautiful place but it's also gritty and you know and strange and you know there's a lot of stuff that goes on there you're like riding horses to the corner store and you're just like okay so there's not adequate bus stops but y'all have horses where are you keeping us horses like you know they're selling you know chicken at the gas station and you're like should I eat chicken absolutely right there's just a lot of weird things and a lot of weird people but I think it like you said people that weren't from there definitely came together and were like you know we got to figure this thing out together but yeah it really showed me what I was made of and that if I could do well completely remote away from everything I know and in this like crazy environment and this you know anomaly that is law school then I could do well anywhere and I think socially I struggled my 1-0 year because I was so like book focused and then I was like okay let me actually like get to know people and once I did that I was like oh like socially I can thrive in like environments where I don't know anybody and I'm not from that gave me the confidence to go out and and do well and and meet people in Dallas and and meet people here and so yeah it's so many lessons that I could go on and on about I think I met some amazing people you included I mean a ton of people are at my wedding I've been to people's wedding I'm going to a wedding for somebody in law one more thing that I'll say and because I keep going on and on but I think that one of the biggest things that I loved about Southern is that 90% of the faculty was black and they were successful black attorneys and they showed me that like they were my family so I can text or call a professor today and I graduated in 2014 and ask a question and they will respond no questions asked even when I was in law school there have been times when I needed something that had nothing to do with school and they were there and so that family that you create not only with like your classmates but with the faculty and staff it's just it's a beautiful thing and I know that there are other HBCU law schools but I'm gonna talk about mine I think it's a unique experience that cannot be duplicated so yeah Southern has taught me a lot law school has taught me a lot okay and did you go to law school right after undergrad or did you have some time between I took a year off okay I took a couple years off but I was 28 in law school but I still feel like I became an adult in law school because it pulls you and stretches you in a different way absolutely because it pulls you and stretches you in a way that you can duplicate in that it's like nothing I've ever experienced and it definitely shaped and molded me into who I am today okay very cool so Kara my last question here the podcast audience is full of law students and new lawyers so five years or less practicing okay is there anything that you would say to them about the multiple ways they can use their law degrees any kind of advice that you would impart to them yeah good question my advice would be to not let anyone tell you what your limits are to fully explore the things you enjoy and try to make those into what you want as a job I was limited unintentionally by people that I thought had my best interest and they had my best interest because that's all they knew but do not allow someone else's limits to be placed on you there was a guy who was externing with my office and he wanted to do space law and he was like that's what I want to do like and that's what I'm gonna do and I was like I don't know anything about space law but like I think that's really cool and the fact that you were like fully invested I mean we also live near like a NASA location and so but like he's like yeah like in five 10 15 years like space law is going to be a thing because people are going to space and like how do you like designate who goes where and I was like that's never even thought of that and he like didn't even put a limit on himself to be like I don't even know how to get into space law but I know it's going to exist think about things that you really enjoy like what did you do before law school or what did you do really well in undergrad that you can leverage don't think that you absolutely have to do what career services is telling you that you should do and push back on that ask for other opportunities and be very aggressive about that because this is the rest of your life and you do not want to graduate law school go to a job and granted money is an amazing tool to help you stay quote unquote happy but when you're day to day you are miserable and the only time you get happy is when you look at your check that's going to be hard and I'm a testament to that I'm a testament to absolutely abhorring the people I work with and the people I work for loving my check but not having the mental health to be able to spend it so so I gotta follow up on that did you grow up wealthy and so you were like oh money I'm supposed to get this or did you not grow up wealthy and you're like just just grit your teeth and bear just because you're making so much money you know put that in perspective yeah I did not grow up wealthy okay not even close and also this notion of I should feel lucky to be where I am you should feel like God has blessed you with this job and you're making this money you you should feel lucky but also you're an example for not only you know I'm the oldest of three so like I'm the example to my siblings I'm the example to a lot of my family in general who don't have degrees or who you know I think I'm the first person in my family to have an advanced degree it's it's a lot of pressure and I think you know the money was the thing that everybody's like that should that should be enough you should want to do that that should be enough and I'm like should I like is that enough and I had to figure that out that's something that people don't love to talk about yes money is beautiful do not take a job if you don't feel comfortable with the salary commiserate with your experience but that is one third of what you should enjoy about the job three things about a job that you should like the money the people and the work and you have to like two of the three in order to feel okay about working there and if you only love the money that's not enough you got to love the money and the people or the money in the work and I think that has been an absolute truth my current job I love all three and it's the first time I have been like you know what I could retire from here I could never have another job and be perfectly fine with it I absolutely love that the money the people in the job and so Cara thank you so much for spending your afternoon and talking to me about this I love to hear your story and I know the audience is learning from everything that you shared if you are watching this on YouTube thank you check us out you see her daughter's name on the wall it's so beautiful if you're not watching and you're listening to the podcast I appreciate it but also the YouTube link is in the show notes so you can click that and you can watch the episode as well or share it with some friends okay so Cara I will talk to you later and thank you so much for being a guest on You Are a Lawyer absolutely thank you for having me bye bye