 Hello, I'm Randy Trevitz, and looking for my script, hold on. I'm one of the producers at Directors Lab West, an all-volunteer-run organization that every May produces an eight-day intensive full of workshops, panels, masterclasses, and more for emerging and mid-career directors and choreographers from all over the world. Refusing to be thwarted in this, our 21st year, we chose to mark the lab with our Directors Lab West Connects and have been overwhelmed by your response and thoughtful questions. So welcome to day two of eight days of conversations crafted for and by theater directors and choreographers live-streamed by our partners at HowlRound to their website and to our Directors Lab West Facebook page where you can join the chat, tell us who you are and where you're tuning in from and ask questions for the Q&A following our speakers' conversation. Thank you to Robert Cardoza for providing ASL interpretation, and I would like to introduce our speakers. I'm going to start with Jessica Hanno while we wait for Ann Bogart to zoom in. I think we're having a few technical difficulties. Jess is a Los Angeles-based director-producer. She's a member of the Kilroy's and a co-founder of Bootleg Theater and sits on the board of City Company. Jess. Hello. Hello. Hello. So I think there's so much to talk about and we can begin with maybe some of the conversations and questions from our robust registration. There's a lot of questions, and I know you have trained with City Company and worked with Ann in the past as have so many of our viewers. So I thought I'd jump right in and talk about space, which I know is a large part of viewpoints and how you might be reconceiving the notion of space under quarantine, having meetings over Zoom, remote teaching, et cetera. Well, lots of new frames to work in, right? Totally. Yeah. It's really, it's very interesting. I have been thinking a lot about the tools that I have in trying, because there's an overwhelming sense of I don't know, right? I don't know how to do this. I don't know. This is a whole new form. I don't know how do I take what I do and put it in here? So trying, when those moments of anxiety about the I don't know, I've been trying to tap into the fact that I don't know is a sweet spot for me as a director. And that I do have a lot of skills, actually, to deal with I don't know. There's a strange headspace right now, because everything is I don't know. So it's like we're swimming in a sea of I don't know. So how do, you know, it's overwhelming. But then to remember, like, oh, I have, I do have ways that I can deal with this or ways that I can find a way through or in, because through seems far right now. And also, you mean the language of that I use in a room or that I use when training? I mean, all of those, that language is super applicable right now. And also, like, unveiling, you know, duration means something entirely new to me now. Where, you know, or, I mean, repetition, all of these things that I have, I have in my toolbox, have a new or I'm looking at them through a new lens because of this world of I don't know. And I'm finding that helpful and reassuring as I go into these different spaces, because they are spaces. I mean, that's an interesting way to think about it too. Because, you know, we say virtual space, but at the same time, I'm physically living in this space, right? So how do I, how do I function both physically and also on this new frame? Right? So those, yeah, I've been, I've had a couple of experiences so far with working, like a reading or workshopping on Zoom. And it is an interesting thing to meet artists where they are, which is in their own space, right? So then having that conversation or knowing that that's where they are and trying not to deny that that's where we are, but to embrace it seems to be helpful. It's making me have to articulate verbally in a way that I often rely on sound effects and physicality to figure out meanings and find my way through. And that is still possible for me in my space, but in terms of conveying the communication, it's made me have to really figure out how, what, be specific with my words, be thoughtful, take my time. Oh, and the other thing is to embrace that it's going to be awkward. Yeah. That also I found in a couple of my experiences so far, those moments of like, oh, this is, you know, not what I want. This is not how it usually goes. I know what you're saying about embracing the I don't know when I have to say a large portion of the questions, not just for this panel, but throughout the week have been akin to what's the future, you know, where nobody knows and of anybody artists live in that world. So. No, it's very true. Yeah. And to speak to, you know, one of the something that I took from Anne's in one of Anne's books in the Director of Preparation talks about when you don't know as a director to put yourself into action, put yourself into some move towards the stage is what she actually, you know, like from the back of the house move in the movement, you'll find something, whether it's right or wrong, who knows, but you'll find something to help have that feeling of, I don't know, maybe dissipate a little bit or like, let's figure this out. So what is the what is that action in this space? What is that moving towards the stage? Like, I have to find new ways to do that in this kind of communication, which is more difficult at times, you know, but also sometimes, you know, get physical, actually, but also in terms of so what is that that is action? So what are actions I can take that are beyond physical? What are the actions I can take in terms of the what I'm doing to not just communicate with artists, but to in the creation process or in the beginning stages, what are the actions I can take to support the artists that I would be working with in a room, but now we're separated. But what am I actually like, can I can I be a good dramaturk? I mean, I've really been cracking those skills out in terms of my conversations with playwrights. Are you finding this more a time for development, for introspection? Or I mean, this is something we as a community have been talking about a lot. This need to create material immediately and put it out there. Or do you feel permission to say this is a this is a moment of repose. This is a moment of what Sheldon called yesterday stillness, which I love. I love that to kind of really reorder and understand that maybe there is a shift going on and we might not have any answers. Yes, yes. No, this place of a playwright friend, Maya McDonald, she said to me, invest in the pause. And that phrase has been resounding. And also, I'm using it to remind myself because I do have mean, we all have those moments of like, oh, all the projects that I could be doing or I've always talked about, or now I have the time, we say. But my brain can't focus or, you know, there's too much from the outside world that I'm thinking about or that is building up in me or whatever that is. So the thing I love about invest in the pause is that there's a space, there's a space for there is a space in that phrase for writing the next opus. There's also a space in that phrase for staring at the wall. You know, I mean, whatever that point is for you right now, I think is the right choice because because it is so I don't know. And there aren't going to be answers for some time. Yeah. So again, looking at our skills of duration and being able to being able to have to build our own maybe investing also in our own what we need to to carry on the marathon. Yeah, you know, that's what are those? What are the things that I need to build up inside of myself or I need to cultivate, you know, in order to get to wherever that is. We don't know at this point how far it is. We know it's far, right? But that doesn't mean stop. And that's the other thing I like about that phrase is the pause as opposed to stop. Yeah, I think that's right, because I think if you're working a lot, which I know we both have been for the past few years, you kind of don't think of yourself often as a creator as so much as like a generator of I have to keep moving forward. I have to meet a deadline. I have to get through a rehearsal to prepare a class on and on. And this feels like a moment of really stopping to think of to rethink of yourself as what do I want to to say? You know, what's important to really create, which is an opportunity, I think directors, particularly who are not, you know, kingmakers and and take assignments as they come are not necessarily in control of that. So it feels like a moment of great power to me, which I think I agree. I mean, I think the possibilities, this moment of possibility is amazing. It is horrific and that it comes out of tragedy. And it is also a positive. There is I have hope hope because of the way that we are all I mean, I feel like the accessibility that we have between it has has has exponentially increased both for artists to talk to each other, but also to see each other's work in a way. And no, it's never the same as being alive. Trust me, I love live theater. It's one of my favorite things to make. It's also one of my favorite things to do and watch. So when I as I say these things, it is it is not that anything is a replacement for. You know, it is a if nothing else, it's reminding me or or making me cherish more the things that when I do miss things, I'm putting them into this thing of like, remember that, remember that for when you get back into a room. Remember that when you're sitting in an audience again, because we will be. So how to to to bring this these this. It's awakening. The way I know it's like, I mean, it's it's a I don't have to quite the right word for again, trying to be articulate in this place of like, ooh, what is this? But some because some words ring really true today and tomorrow they might be a little different because of this this sea change. Right. And we still don't have haven't been able to put our feet down yet. Which I think is OK. I mean, there's that, you know, that wonderful thing about another image that's been in my head quite a bit is that moment in the chrysalis where the the caterpillar goes to go, right? And you don't know what it's going to be. This we're kind of in a moment of this. It's very unexpected and forced on us. But, you know, what could we be? What kind of I mean, what kind of butterfly? Maybe not even a butterfly, you know, maybe it's going to be something even more glorious, who knows? But we have that if the what you're saying to about aligning ourselves with our beliefs, this seems to be a time in terms of our art aligning with our beliefs, also people becoming more aware and invigorated by the communities in terms of what is how how do I want to include my community? How do I want to serve my community? I think artists, I mean, we're speaking of, you know, the tragedy and the grief that is that is a part of this whole event. Artists are going to be we are and will be very important to the processing for society of this giant collective grief. Absolutely that New York Times cover today. I mean, just lessons on all of their hearts. I mean, but how, you know, and not to say that we all make art about Corona. I mean, I don't know. I personally I get how it's like I don't want. I don't want to want to want to go see a play about someone stuck in an apartment like me, you know what I mean? But but at the same time, those ideas, those thoughts about what we are contemplating in this place of of isolation, those could be helpful in the art. I'm wondering, I've been thinking about this a lot and it's also a big projection, but how this experience is going to change our relationship to our audience once we are back. I mean, what you said about community, I understand absolutely. But I think not just the artists and what we've been going through and what we want to create, but what our community, our audience might be feeling or open to seeing or are they seeing with different eyes now that in a funny way, this kind of Zoom platform is oddly more intimate. Then sitting in the back of a large house, you know, you're you're right up in everybody's face. So it's an interesting thought about how the audience our relationship to the audience will change. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I don't know. I don't know in certain levels in terms of how this will in terms of audience with the work. I think the accessibility of the work that is coming through this through online. In terms of audience growth and participation, I think that is really exciting. And I think one of the questions I or one of the questions I hope we keep in mind or as we move forward is how what are the things that are resounding with this audience that we have all of a sudden been able to reach in a different way? And so what are what is being able to look towards the audience for what what they're looking for? But also, like, what are how do we reflect them back to themselves? Which is what our job as artists is. So acknowledging the fact that our audience has expanded in a way, I mean, in a national international way, just in terms of reach because of online. So then how do we how do we keep who all those people are in mind as we move forward with the stories we want to tell? And also the people who want who we want to see telling them? You know, I've been seeing so many models of projections of theaters trying to reopen with social distancing and outdoor theaters with little boxes where people go. And I thought to myself, often as well in preparation for this panel today, it looks like the audience is participating in a viewpoint exercise, you know, because now their space has been defined and their way into it and the amount of space they're given and how they can explore it. And I thought that's so interesting. Now the audience is having a very theatrical experience as participants just by coming into the space. It's changing the way we think about space, which I think is fascinating. I think it's fascinating for people with your training and ants, you know, to explore that in a I don't know if it makes it naturally more just naturally immersive or if there will be a lot more immersive theater for the audience to share their experiences as well. I would not be surprised. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, there are there. I know I know that there are folks making immersive experiences right now that you can participate. You know, you get pieces of through social media or through some other form of the online online and you are participating, you know, as in your world, but you're still participating as a group. And there's some kind of there is something about the collective experience that is still that is part of theater that is still happening. It's just happening very widespread and we can't we don't get the feedback. I mean, that's the other thing that's so interesting about about doing work online is that part of we're not getting the immediate the immediate feedback, the live you know, vibe between, you know, and actually has this thing about about the mirror neurons, right? The mirror neurons are part of what crackle when we're sitting in a dark theater and we're all crackling together, right? And then the recent research about heart heart beating together, right? So we had so that's part of like again, those moments where I'm like, oh, this is one of the things this put this in the list of things I'm going to be grateful for when I get to sit in the theater again. At the same time, how is that could that be happening? Right now, and I just am not I'm not I'm just not in the vicinity of it physically, right? You know, it's the action, right? Yeah, yeah. But I mean, it's interesting to see people having collective or having a having opinion. I'm seeing stuff online about plays that people like the like say the National Theater Live, like I've seen a lot of people talking about the streetcar because they put that one up this week. And, you know, that so then there's a there is collective conversation happening between that's that's literally across the world. As opposed to, you know, the one, you know, I mean, a very. Rarified and sometimes, you know, elitist version of an audience, right, because of the access. So now all of a sudden we have access into this conversations that are happening about theater that I love and I love seeing these conversations happening amongst people who wouldn't necessarily even talk about theater, you know, but they're so there is something happening. It is that that that I think is it's going to help the possibilities. You know, in terms of what we're or reinforce the possibilities, give give more fertilizer to that. Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about intimate theater, which I love. I love being able to actually see every face in the room. But the fact that this is a global pandemic, you know, it's very much changing my ideas of local and small and and what that is, you know. And I here's a unless you have a comment on that, I'm going to throw a question at you from our Facebook room. I'd love to know thoughts about creating smaller theater events with limited audience in intimate, non-traditional spaces like galleries, rehearsal studios and live streaming the event to a broader audience. So that's exactly what we're talking about is making intimate theater for for a larger global audience. Absolutely. I'll say honestly, this is something that I think has already been it's this is something that people were talking about, right, or trying. I know there was a company in New York that does streaming. I'm working with a group that we're working on a Twitch channel that would then support artists that would then get to a space. The idea there. But and but looking at how can we use this new technology, right, to both in terms of creation, in terms of like having rehearsals and things like that, but also how can we include our audience in process, possibly, you know, and then is that a way to get people excited? Want to, you know, are we doing long form process that will then for a year that will then lead into a space? I'm really excited. I think, you know, I this again, I don't know. But I think we will get into smaller spaces first, outdoor spaces, obviously, first. So this conversation between arts in terms of galleries and ways that you can have that crossover and then also have it streamed out so that it's accessible to everyone. I mean, that to me does not sound like a bad thing in terms of getting people interested until until we can get into a space together again, you know, these are all things that are part of part of life theater. We're just going to do pieces of them at a time. And obviously, I mean, so many generous companies have been making their archives and their their filmed live productions available during the virus. And so many people have been able to see work that they never would have seen, which I think is extraordinary. It's not the same, but it is theater. It is theater. And I think particularly if you watch it live with other people at the same time, it does create a little bit more of an experience as opposed to, yeah, I saw that too last week, you know, so, you know. I had the extraordinary experience of watching a Greg Woehead piece online as part of the gift festival at UK. And, you know, it was a durational piece, long, like 15 hours. And so I could dip in and out, you know, which I would have been able to do and walk in and out if I wanted, you know, in the physical space, but, you know, dip in and out. And there was a moment where I found myself laughing at something sitting in my kitchen. Yeah. And that also, like that gave another level for me in terms of what, in terms of how I was taking in the art, you know. And it's, I think it's fascinating. I want to, I mean, I find it all very positive, you know. You know, yeah. I love this question, so I'm going to throw it to you. Even though I know that it's intended for Anne, but it's. But there were so many. But you can do it. There were so many versions of this same question. And and they're all about career development. And they're all about what would you tell your 20 year old self? What's the one piece of advice you wish you had heard? What what tips or what challenges did you face, particularly as a young woman coming up and what helped you in your mindset to continue on to break through if you feel you've broken through, but that they gave you the courage to continue. And then there's like, there's a corollary at the end, but I'm going to let you talk about that. OK, in my 20s, I wish I wish I guess I wish I would have had more belief in myself and my impulses and my instincts at 20. And I think that's true of 20s in general. I think that proves extra true for women. It's it's a I mean. I personally was very lucky in that I didn't experience much like door shutting in my face because I'm a non cis male. But I. I definitely think that a lot of it is in my it was in my head. And, you know, I. Yeah, I guess that that's the thing I would have said. Hey, Jess, you can do this, you know, in some form or another. And I mean, still say that to myself. But, you know, but back then I think in terms of where my trajectory was, like as I was very like one, where where is my place in this world? I know I know I want to make theater. I know I want to. This is what I love. But how how do I fit into this world? And yeah, I mean, one of the things I think that I try to do as much as possible is to mentor and offer or offer space for people to try and fail with with me. And I wish I had had more opportunities like that at a younger age. I did get them, I would say in my thirties, but if, you know, if that had happened in my 20s, I think that would have. I don't know. Well, who knows? But that's what I what I really would have. I mean, I think that that kind of support. To go for it. You know, certainly a generational difference between my generation and those coming up now is there was an attitude that there was room for one woman at a time. Right. And now I think for women to be supportive of each other to kick the door open to mentor other young women. It's and to realize it's kind of if you look at the presenters on this panel, it's very female heavy. And those just happen to be the people. You know, so it's there's a sea change coming. Yeah, I think that, you know, and the more that we that we all can, like you say, I mean, the each one pull one, the turning to each other and making sure that that they're, you know, it's not it's not just opening the door, it's not just pulling back the chair. It's literally like, here's the table and like, oh, here's some and here's some food to eat. And I'd love to hear what you have to say, you know, and what do you think of how do we make this better? So doing, you know, hoping, hoping for that for myself, but then turning and being like, OK, I'm going to do that for as many people as I can because that that's also, again, how we're going to change this landscape, you know. And what would you say to new directors who are trying to learn their craft now during this time? They will forever be the zoom generation or the, you know, I came up during covid. It's going to mark people in time. I think the experience. Well, how to think of that as more of a badge of honor as opposed to something that was, you know, I mean, yes, it's been voiced upon you. And this is, you know, on so many levels, this is terrible. And. But it's a word where. How can you make that thing that is going to define, quote unquote, this generation? How can you make that something positive and good? And help to move the culture forward? I mean, that's that scene. It seems like there's going to be. I mean, there's stuff that I mean, I'm going to have to. I mean, I'm learning at the same time is there's going to be ways that minds that are younger and more and more adept at the technology period than myself are going to do amazing, innovative things are doing amazing, innovative things. You know, I don't know if did you get to do we talk about this? Did you get to see the Peter Quo directed in Love and Warcraft that he did with the ACT MFA's? There was it was a good R.C.P. It was a project. Yeah. But the way that he the way that he directed, I mean, and literally and like it wasn't it wasn't like, oh, no, this is directed. This was choreographed, blocked, worked on. I mean, scripted, worked on the scenes were there, you know, and was it no, it was not live and it was not that. But it was so exciting to see someone using their directing skills to help tell the story in this medium. Absolutely. And that is absolutely possible. It gave me a lot of hope and, you know, it also gave me, you know, it's just like, oh, that's a and also the reality that's a lot of work. And it's a lot of work that like, you know, I don't want to. Because that's not how we do it. But, you know, it was pretty revelatory. And so we're going to have to maybe that, you know, I'm going to I'm going to have to work outside my box. I'm going to have to work harder in certain certain ways. I'm going to, like I said, I'm going to feel awkward. And that is not what I wanted to be feeling at this place in my career. Right. But that's what it is historically. We've gone through at least, you know, kicking and screaming in terms of accepting new technologies before, you know, I mean, when computer boards came into the booth and no longer was it a connection between the operator? It was just go, go, go, right? It was an adjustment. So, you know, I think we're all capable of moving forward. And I agree with you that those people that have grown up with a digital universe that their fingertips are probably more capable certainly than I am at making the adjustment. Lots of lots of questions about commerce and. Sure. Yeah. So not just about how do we get paid as artists? But interestingly, you know, are we should be we be wary about making work that we're just giving away, giving it away? Have we started to devalue ourselves by by loading things free up onto the web? And this concern about I think it's an interesting one. Obviously, artists have to survive and make a living. But I'm also concerned about. Devaluate devaluing what our contribution actually is. This is a hard one because I want to say, I mean, I mean, I have personal beliefs or personal ways that I would I follow. But at the same time, I don't want to deny any artist that like, oh, don't you shouldn't be putting that up there or don't. You know, it's like, I mean, every again, invest in the pause. Everyone's going to be having their own take on this. I do think we do need to be careful about in terms of. Ownership, especially in terms of playwrights would be very like and be very respectful of of playwrights and their rights and their stories and their play in their place. But to be hopefully in conversation with those playwrights about what what we. How how we can find some kind of either either, I don't know, happy medium, maybe, but also maybe there's something about like this, the play that we were going to be working on. We're going to put that over here because we won't be we want it to be live. We want it to be in a space. That's what we want this to be. And to like run for like, I've got to put something up. That feels like I would I would question that energy in terms of like, what is the why of why you need to do that? So so quickly, fast, maybe without having everyone all of the artists working in mind. Because I and I understand that that rush need. Oh, but maybe there's a moment of hate. Let's just maybe quiet it down a little bit and let's look at why we want to tell this story. Is there is this is there another way to tell this story in this medium that is that would work in tandem with the play? Is there, you know, that I think there are a lot of possibilities but being respectful of all of the artists involved, and especially when it comes to the commerce part of this. And I know that, you know, we're all looking for ways to support ourselves and find ways to to make it to however long this is till we can get back into a room, right? So I would also encourage everybody to look at what their skills are and how else we can use them in terms of in terms of commerce and not to say that you're not going to, you know, make money as a director ever again. But there's this period of time where I, you know, you do something else for a little while while you keep cultivating and working with artists and things like that. But the idea of being able to support yourself by making theater is just not happening right now. And I think to acknowledge that and to, you know, to mourn it. And at the same time, not get bogged down and lost in in that place. And finding, yeah, go. So, well, I'm trying to, oh, my God, I think Anna's here. Fantastic. Let me quickly, I see her name. I'm looking for her face. Look at what she's coming in. I want to. Hi, Anne. We're so delighted that you're here. Theater and opera director, Anne Bogart, professor at Columbia University and co-artistic director of the city company as well as author of five invaluable books on directing, viewpoints, theory and the practice of making theater. I'm going to get out of here quick so you can have a conversation with Jess and share your thoughts with us. And I'll be back at the end. I think we've had enough questions. We want to hear what you have to say. But wait, let me ask you. I have a question. This starts in 15 minutes, right? No, I think I think our international time warp has messed us up. We are live right now. And how long have you been live? Since our 11 o'clock. So the last 30, 35 minutes ago or so. Oh, no, that's I'm so sorry. It's OK. I thought I was I thought I was actually 19 minutes early. I think everyone will be delighted to have you stay for as long as you can stay. So what have you been talking about? So many things. Many things. Well, we talked about we covered a lot of the or we talked about some of the we could take some of the questions from that were in the the the RSVP responses. So let's see. We've talked about we've talked about being in a sea of I don't know and knowing that we have some tools to get us through that because we're directors and I don't know is exciting. We've talked about being in these spaces and what what some of the some of our the way that we have tools we have and things we have been able to use and not use what our feelings are about being in these spaces. What else have we talked about? Talked about being a woman and coming up. Yeah. And what some advice that I would have given myself back in the day, which was to believe in myself. Totally. And then also about mentoring and bringing up and opening up spaces for other people. We've talked about the accessibility that is now happening. And it's all great subjects. I have to say to have whoever is listening. I'm really, really sorry. I was looking forward to this and I'm. And I thought I was so early. We can take a little more time, I think so. I think we're fine on the other end. I'll double check that and queue you if there's a problem. I apologize. I'm not sure I thought we had worked it out that it was eight o'clock. London time. Seven o'clock, London. Well, I think it's a perfect. This is a new platform for all of us and we're going to have some glitches. So we're. Oh, it looks like we do have. But we don't have a heart out. No, so we can keep talking. We have as much time as you have. But I probably will apologize five more times. Because I mean, I have been on Zoom a lot. It hasn't been. I haven't been. It's not that it's new software or anything for me. So no, it's not that I think it's the time difference for sure. I mean, I think we have we have to we had a glitch on the West Coast versus. What are you on GMT? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we're delighted you're here in and please. I'm going to let you chat with Jessica. Well, thank you. And I'll do my best to make up for it. I'm not worried. Well, you want to talk. Do you want to talk about the space that we're all in right now in terms of how we work in this in these new frames that we are in? Yeah, I will talk about what's been on my mind mostly. And I know, Jessica, you heard me talk about this the other day, which is that when we first were shut in, which is a significant thing for all of us theater people, because what we do is we deal with social systems. And suddenly we're isolated from one another. And at the beginning, I was very frustrated with the amount of of publication that was happening online, the amount of, you know, coronavirus dances and and and readings and this and that. And I kept thinking, you know, it feels like self-expression to me. And that's not really what the theater is about. And it wasn't until a few weeks into it when I was discussing this with with Tina Landau. And she said, no, no, no, you're wrong because actually every everything that's happening is great because it's a form of mourning. This is how people are mourning. And so I I I realized she was right. But I do want to take apart a little bit what my frustration was is that I'm so uninterested in self-expression. And I think as a as a country, we are obsessed with the signature, the original vision, the, you know, having something to sell, the branding, etc. And yet the theater is something that is really not self-expression. It's actually, if anything, it's eulogy. It's actually giving giving voice to dead people. It's looking back and remembering and actually allowing them to enter into us and to speak through us. And so certainly there's a frustration in not being able to be together, sharing space this way, but but I started thinking about it. And I started thinking about prisoner of war camps and how in in Vietnam and during the Second World War in China and in Japan, the American prisoner of wars, prisoners of war, figured out a system of tapping where they would be separated and enforcement, enforced not to actually speak to one another. And so they figured out a very elaborate way of tapping to one another, either through the walls or against the pipes. And they figured out elaborate messaging systems that would go from one cell to another. And I thought, ultimately, that is interesting because it's one person trying to reach out to another or a group of people trying to stay together amidst horrifying circumstances. And I started looking at the output that was online of people dealing with the the the shut in coronavirus Covid issue. And I noticed there was a difference between that sense of tapping, like, are you there? Do you hear me? And I have something to say. Then just kind of showing off or we're going to do a reading because we're doing a reading, we just have to keep going. So although I think Tina was right in saying it's all a form of mourning, I think in these particular moments, we need to actually use the stop, use the energy of the stop as when you have the brakes on and the accelerator on at the same time and be ready to move, which we're going to have to move with great alacrity and great ingenuity and great sense of innovation because to get back to one another is going to is going to require us all to engineer new ways of being together. But that notion of tapping was really helpful. In other words, I think this event is important, which is why I'm so horrified at being 40 minutes late, as I thought 20 minutes early. But I do feel I'm looking at Jessica right now. I'm sort of tapping at her. And can we talk about something of substance? Can we can we communicate to one another? I don't know, Jessica, are you feeling that also in your in your home? Yeah, I mean, yes, I do in terms of it's also something about the intention of the tapping in terms of what in terms of what you're speaking of in because there's there is something the the survival that is implied or important implied in the tapping. Yeah. Yeah. That I think I I I I see I see that energy from people. Yeah. In terms of what's coming out. So so it's important to have something to say when you're tapping. You've got to have something to communicate something useful for others, not just to expose yourself. And so I was thinking lately about, you know, something I actually heard Robert Brewstein say, the amazing Bob Brewstein, who's getting quite old right now, but he wrote a lot of books that are hard to read and wrote one that was is too easy to read. It's he wrote one to young actors that is just ridiculous. Anyway, but I adore him and he founded Yale rep and ART, etc. And he said at one point and I thought it was something wise. He said, to do theater, you need three things. You need passion. You need to have something to say and you need to have technique. And I thought that's really useful. And it made me think of like a three legged milk stool, you know, that if one of the legs is missing, the whole enterprise falls over. So that's that's interesting now, thinking about how we communicate with one another in this interim liminal space before we are allowed to be back together in full glory of of of gathering. But yes, we have passion. I definitely feel that I can feel it coming across the internet. We definitely have things to say. There's a lot to say. But what we don't necessarily have is the technique is is the new techniques in a sense that can help us join with one another. The new techniques that that that that we're awkwardly learning to use right now to be able to tap. We have to figure out a code in this tapping. Yeah. And I also think that probably when we are released from this prison of of sequestration, it won't be easy. We won't be able to play by the same rules for a while and we won't be able to use the same techniques for a while. So we have to go through a very awkward phase of attempting to connect with one another and and to find the new techniques to find the new techniques in order to do so. And perhaps when we can gather together again in the glorious way that theater allows, perhaps we will we'll have new tools that we can bring to to the to play now. Can you speak because I said earlier that we have to be comfortable being awkward or that's one because I have found I have found this in my dealings with this new medium to be awkward in the in in a creation sense or in a communication sense in terms of a rehearsal room. How how how are you finding in terms of like how is it to revel in the awkwardness to it's not it's not only awkwardness, it's also uncertainty that we have more uncertainty. There was a beautiful article in the New York Times today was actually an editorial about how human beings don't actually have a clue and to ask experts to predict what the future is is ridiculous right now. We will figure it out the experts we be able to move and we'll be able to move in the right moment. But to say I want to guarantee of how it's going to be is there there's nothing that's not possible and we should stop expecting it. But what we do need to do is to learn to be more comfortable with uncertainty to to learn what the neuroscientists have been saying for the last 20 years, which is you actually have very little to do with controlling your life or the world around you. You think you do, but in fact, you just nodded thinking now that you nodded but you nodded and then you agreed. You know, that's what the neuroscience which is interesting in the theater, certainly in terms of behavior. So certainly there is the embrace of uncertainty but there's also the as you say the awkwardness and I'll tell you what's happening with city company right now, which is interesting. We're we're involved in something called workspace. It's something we've been doing for a number of years as we work on different projects at the same time. And as soon as we we were in in Minneapolis performing the the Bacchai, we had just opened it. Big production is going to have a nice long run. And then the next thing we were going to do is to go to Singapore for another long six weeks to work on the three sisters there. And then we were going to go to Saratoga. Well, like everybody else, all of that was pulled out beneath us. And through the genius of of our staff, Michelle Preston and her staff at city company, who figure out a way to make applications very quickly to various funding organizations that are dealing with the fallout from covid, we are able to keep the actors on salary through June, through May into June, once we were shut down from Minneapolis and people came home. And so we are five days a week on Zoom and trying to figure out what training means. And all of us feeling rather stupid to be standing in your living room on your stupid carpet, trying to do stomping or trying to do viewpoints on the we're trying to rehearse a play. And it feels sometimes, as you said, awkward. It feels is this necessary, but we're trying. We're trying to find out what it is that is necessary, how to connect with one another, how to stay connected, how to rehearse a play, how to be together, how to be together well in the way that we're able to do in a room together. But what now? So it is, Jessica, completely awkward. How are you fighting through your frustrations? I mean, in terms of I mean, I know that a lot of us are trying to figure out how is it about is about just stick with it, keep trying. I mean, you know, how what are some of the ways that you are finding to support your fortitude to keep going? Frustration is an interesting fuel. And it's not just because of COVID that we're frustrated. We have frustration at every step. That's part of our lives. That's what part of making art in the United States or anywhere is very, very difficult. So with frustration, you could do one of two things. You can either discharge, which means complain. Or you store the frustration. And again, this is not just in this moment. You you compress it. You don't let it make you sick because it could make you sick. You say, this is interesting fuel and you wait. And it doubles its energy. And then at the right moment, you express in the right form. You tap correctly. You tap audibly. That's that's that's hearable to others. And so I don't think we should think of frustration just in this particular situation that all all circumstances have a degree of frustration. I do think that probably after we start moving out of our homes and try to work together, I think it will feel in some ways socially what the Eastern Europe felt politically. In other words, there will be many, many rules. That aren't political, but that are social that we have to live up to that are very frustrating. I mean, just distance is frustrating, frustrating with dealing with people who don't respect distance. You know, so that frustration is going to escalate. So we bloody well, I'm here in London, so I say things like bloody well. We bloody well should figure out how to how to handle the frustration and treat it as a gift of energy and not let it injure you, but let it become a useful, useful tool. And not to think it's just because we're stuck in our houses. That's that's not not correct. Yeah, it's definitely shining. It's shining a light on things that were already there, for sure. Yeah, you know, in a new in and seeing them in a new way. And the other thing is, you know, anything, I think it's it's going to be very difficult. But the things that we're failing are going to fail. And the things that we're succeeding are going to succeed. That's terrifying on a political level, because I'm terrified that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer because that was happening very successfully for some people is going to intensify. That's what we have to fight against. But I do think that there are certain aspects of the theater that were struggling and that we're going to have to reinvent the probably the biggest. I'm thinking of word in in in German, opfer, the biggest sacrifice, in a sense, will be the large regional theaters, because I think commercial theater will kick its way back into existence. Small theaters, the ones who are smart and the ones who are thinking fast and are being innovative will be OK, because they can go from an office of 10 to an office of two pretty easily, but they're used to doing that. So not to say there's not going to be a lot of sacrifice in the small theater world, but I think the really big regional theaters are going to have a lot of trouble because they are they've been swollen to a point that many are run by their marketing directors anyway, rather than the artists, you know, that's that whole history of that. So it's going to be it's going to be very difficult for I think the larger theaters. I sort of got off track of what we were talking about. But it's OK, we're we're we're we'll come back around with this thing of being able to the possible. We were talking. I love the possibilities of this moment. And the fact that we that the landscape of our the theatrical ecosystem is I mean, it's devastating and also the place we are in this place of change. And so how how are how are we as we artists who who create and are usually we're looking for support from institutions? Is there another is there another way that we can reach out maybe more horizontally and to each other in terms of how we support each other and make our work going forward? Well, that's already happening. It's happening right now as we're speaking. It's happening because I was impressed because Randy sent me a lot of the questions, which are amazing and serious questions and very thoughtful questions. I think we are reaching out to each other. I think we're reaching bigger audiences than we've ever had before because we're actually using the Internet in new ways. We're certainly using Zoom and discovering other tools to do that. So we're actually intensifying social distance. Actually, I think social distancing is a misnomer. It should be physical distancing. There is a great deal of social intimacy happening right now and a great deal of what you call horizontality more than ever. I remember first when when I was first confronted with having to say teach classes for at Columbia on Zoom, I was horrified. I think this is never going to work. But somehow I'm not saying I was able to teach directing necessarily on Zoom. The students, the directing students made jokes about, yeah, we're going to be doing everything with puppets now, right on tables. But what did happen is a deeper communication, a deeper dedication to one another, a feeling I feel very much both for a city company and also for my students, I need to be there for them. I'm also on the board of the executive board of the SDC, and it's been an extraordinary honor to be with this group of people who have all come together and made a hundred committees because there's now thousands of directors out of work suddenly. And suddenly we have to organize and we have to think in new ways and we have to think about what safety means returning. And we have to think about how to use the media. We have to think about the fact that a lot of regional theaters, as they say, are suffering and they want to actually take old material and broadcast it. And they're calling a lot of directors and saying, I'd like to use this. This video from your production in in 2015. Can I do that? You want to say, yeah, but you also know that it's a it's a video that was taken by one camera at the back of the house because equity doesn't approve of shooting of performance and all the actors look like little blurs and the sound system is horrible. Is that what we want to show to audiences around the country? Wouldn't that turn people off rather than get people excited? I mean, it's not like like the National Theater or the Met Opera, where we have like six cameras. So what the questions that are coming up now are really key and vital to all directors. And so we have to talk to each other. We have to use a collective brain. And I think my puppy is about you. Come on, come on, say hello. This is Mabel. She's a puppy Mabel. She wants to say hello. Yes. Oh, boy, being with a puppy during this time is such a wonderful thing because a puppy is just there and there and there and always there and there again, just very present. Hey, I have a treat for you. Go go eat this treat. Oh, she wants to eat it up here. Exactly. Watch me eat the treat. She will perform for us now. Welcome visitors. You know, I mean, that's again in this we have a moment of these moments of life. Yeah, on the screen. Yeah, it's also very interesting to me because it's there, there, you know, it's no, it's not life theater, but there is something happening that's live. So you know what it is, Jessica? It's very simply we're sharing time, sharing space in a very, very different way in a virtual way. But we are sharing time for those who are present in this moment. It's different when you get a video that was shot a few days ago and look at it again, it feels more archival. But to be here, I'm looking at you and Zoom is really improved over Skype. I have to say, I'm seeing you smile. I feel better. That painting behind you is making me a little giddy. I'm thinking of drugs or something. I don't know. But so so I think it's we do share time. Space is a problem. Yes, I'm definitely I love that. I hadn't I actually, honestly, I hadn't put it together like that. But I I I love that because there are these I do have these moments of feeling the collective still, the of being in an audience, even though I'm not necessarily in the same room with people. The conversations that people are having about theater that either sometimes like theater that I've seen in the past, like the the the encounter, Simon McBurney from complete state, they put that up this week. And so then to be able to hear people having conversations about a play that I saw a couple, three years ago and was deeply moved by, you know, and I get to watch it again in a different way, which is also interesting. But then also that there is this conversation about art that I'm very excited about because it's it seems again, the accessibility, the way that people are able to to get to these theater that they wouldn't have been able to get to, both in a space, financially, all of all of those things that that is causing a collective group experience in some form or another, which is. Yeah, I'm feeling that is major part of theater right now. It is. And it's a huge part. You know, it's about sharing in a sense with one another. It's about social systems. But the one thing that's missing and we're not very good at yet, and Lord knows if we should become good at it, is to make something that is really formidable, like you hope when you work on a play, you're creating an experience that just shakes and that the audience has to actually handle themselves to come to it and to join it and to use their imagination. That we haven't quite figured out. So we've I think we've got we've had an acceleration in social, the opposite of social distancing is we have social interactions happening and interactions as well. But what we haven't figured out how to do is to build things. And to build these. These works of art to put it simply, you know, if the question is, do we need to where I mean, we're going to be out of Zoom at some point? What are we taking with us? Certainly. But but do we need to create something on Zoom? Is that or online? Is that what we do? Isn't that what other people do? I mean, it's a it's a question, isn't it? I don't know if you what your thoughts about that is. I I have I have similar thoughts or because I think I'm very curious about this for process. I am I am wary of it about in terms of production for like a paying audience. I have been able to have seen a couple of I guess produced for Zoom, but they were private and they were exciting and I learned a lot. But I don't know that I'm I'm really excited about making trying to translate a theater production to this form. I am curious about how we can continue to create in this place that will then get us to a space. I think I mean, I know that like companies that have been using technology and been able to over in the past. I mean, we're already doing this because they had members in other countries, like you say, this is better than Skype. So we're already, you know, we're we're moving forward in that. But there are a number of, you know, there are a number of pieces out there that were created via this medium. We go and we see them in a theater. They weren't necessarily meant to be seen like this. And then there are also I mean, then there's also just the use of this technology within a piece. I mean, the way that cameras have been started to be used on stage as what is her name? They're wonderful director. They had her at Red Cab. Mary Ann Weems. Yes, I think that's right. Yeah. So like the Builders Association, you know, in how you how you how you how you bring those those those elements that are that we have already started to try to develop and use and how to bring that these I mean, I don't will we will be probably forever talking about the boxes, right? The boxes will become part of our language of expression in some form or another, whether it be in the theater or on television or wherever the wherever that goes. This is not I mean, we are all using this frame in such a way that it's it's not going to just disappear, you know, yeah, you know, there's a book that was written like at least 10 years ago by Thomas Friedman, who's a writer, editorialist, and it was called The Lexus and the Olive Tree. And I find it very I found it instructive then and right now I'm thinking about it again. And the Lexus means like the car, the Lexus and the olive tree means ancient culture. And he said, and this is 10 years ago or more. And he said, you know, we're we're living in a world where people are going to extremes, either to all technology, the Lexus or fundamentalism to ancient religion, to the olive tree, which is which can be very restrictive. And his point was that both of them you lose your soul. You lose something. And that his theory is is that the balance between the Lexus technology and the olive tree or or ancient culture needs to be brought together at the time. He said, you know, where it's happening the best in the world, said the South of France, you have these incredible countryside and then you have a high speed train running through it. You know, thinking of that in terms of the theater is that I'm thinking of certain artists who have have embraced technology so much that the that the that the art went down the drainhole that suddenly it feels so distant, you know. And so I think you could go too far into technology. And I've always thought, but at the same time, you don't want to deny technology. You don't want to deny that they're amazing sound system possibilities or amazing lighting possibilities, you know, all this technology and now certainly the technology of Zoom. But I think the healthy thing is to find a balance. So I know the way I've worked for years is that I always was aware that if there was going to be a really, really high tech sound, I needed to have a stage that was basically a platform, the wooden platform. Or if I was going to do something that involves something scenically complicated, I had to really simplify and make acoustic the other elements. And so I think that might be instructive as we move out of isolation to say, what have I learned technically? How can I use it? But also bring back the the meat, you know, the the wood, the the ancient part of what the theater is, you know, the incarnate experience. And I think that will make the most successful theater, if you know what I mean. I do. I love that idea. The balance, yeah, finding that balance. Yeah. So you actually have to be conscious. Oh, how you choose as we leave these platforms and start standing together, being together. What what do you keep in then? How do you start to balance the the ancient side of the theater in a sense? I'm back. I'm ready. Um, you guys are awesome. I just thought, and especially big, I'm not awesome. I'm an hour late. But let's have a moment of acknowledging Robert, our ASL. Robert done way more than he bargained for. I just have a couple of hot questions off the Facebook page. And hopefully we can scooch those in. I think we have a few minutes left. One is vis-a-vis what you were just talking about. And there's questions from how do we create theater in this new space without devaluing design elements? You know, this is our first time as director's lab going outside of our usual small cloistered audience. And so we have a lot of people from all different facets of the theater world tuning in, obviously, including a lighting designer, in this case, who feels a little left out of the conversation, understandably so. And I'm just curious what you think about. Oh, first of all, it's a great question, whether it comes from a director or a lighting designer, and all great questions have the same answer. So would you ask the question again? And I'm going to give you the answer. Awesome. How do we create theater in this new space without devaluing design elements? Or is my work? And the answer is the answer is, so that's it. That's a great question. The answer is exactly. You have to ask the question. If you don't ask it, then then then you're in trouble. Who knows? We're going to find out how to make that work, but you have to ask the question. Yeah, you know, it's it's it's how do we work together again? How do we use what it is we can do? So that question is more valuable than any answer I could possibly give. Awesome. And this last one more before we're going to go to our final question that we're asking all of our panelists this week, I'm just curious about your your take on being part of the academic world at this moment. And I know that you're still teaching at Columbia as and I'm teaching as well. And I feel like there is, especially for the incoming class who are looking forward to at least a semester, if not a year of remote learning in theater, a kind of acknowledgement or ethical conversation that I'm not hearing yet about training for something that is looking precarious in terms of their futures. Well, a couple of things. Because I teach directing, it's a little different for actors. But because I teach directing, I revel in my own graduate training, which was performance studies. It wasn't actually called it then. I went to NYU, got an M.A., which was then a two year program in what was then called theater, history and criticism. And it was the best preparation for being a director, I can imagine. So I don't think that we're not going to be together for the entire year. I do think we're going to be on Zoom for the first semester. So what Brian Kulick, who's I co-run the directing program, the graduate directing program at Columbia, what we're going to do is take the first semester to basically give a performance studies approach to theater, and it will be all super academic. I'm going to teach a course I've never taught before called the history of directing, and I better start working on it. And it's it's it's going to be, I think, fantastic. And I hope to give the students everything that I was able to get from my own graduate studies. And what that was was an appetite for study. In other words, in two years, I couldn't possibly read. It was it was a it was a program that was then run by Richard Checkner and Ted Hoffman and Brooks McNamara, you know, these amazing people. And so it was about the anthropology, sociology in relationship to theater, as opposed to, you know, the strongest line on stage is a diagonal and make a joke often the strongest line on stage is diagonal. Poof, you have your MFA. One way I can that Brian and I and Brian is much more of a brilliant, brilliant academic than I am. But is to spend a serious and rigorous semester and concentrate on academic study, on historical study, on rigorous theoretical study. And then in the spring, when I believe we will be back, that's I think that's going to happen is to do a lot of production, like enough of enough talk, enough study, enough writing, enough reading. Let's get it on the boards. We've never done that before. Usually we try to over the course of their two years of training and then their one year of no training, but making theses and internships. We usually sort of weave all that through and very carefully make sure that by the time they're finished, they have that background. But we're going to stuff it all in. And the other thing that really surprised me and I don't know if you found that with your students is the students who are now moving into their second year and the incoming students, for the most part, are so relieved. They're not in the job market. They're so happy to be in school and relieved to actually have this time of grace. And that's another way of looking at it. And I realized I thought, oh, right, I get that. It is it is a special time for them, I think. And I think that you have to, if you're going to go into this kind of study and teaching, you have to think that way. You have to say, I'm going to line myself up so that it's working for me and for the world in general, for my usefulness in the world rather than against it. That's great. That's helpful. It's very it's very humbling this whole time to be. Yeah, it is especially and in my case, so many of my students are straddling the job market while they're in school and, you know, in small, multi-generational homes. And it's it's a balancing act for them to, you know, find a quiet space with a good broadband to stay in school. So there's a lot of there's a lot of balls in the air. You know, those are real obstacles. I mean, the financial obstacles are so huge. Huge, huge. Yeah. It's it's made me as as the I feel more responsible to the students than ever. I mean, we're keeping in touch all summer long, which I never usually do. You know, we need we need to be there for each other, I think. Yeah, no. And what's important is they need to know that we're going to do this together. And I mean that in general in the field, it's not that it's not like, oh, you young people have to figure it out. It's no, we're going to get in the trenches and we're going to all figure it out together. We're going to figure out how to move forward. Yeah, I agree with you. It's been a balancing act between being a therapist sometimes in the classroom, you know, in the compassion and still trying to push forward to get something of value out of the out of the subject. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to ask you our stock last question. If I can find it in my multiple scripts here, it can't be that stock then, can it? I think I actually wrote it, but it's been an unexpected morning. So in closing, could you briefly share something you've learned or discovered during this quarantine period that you plan to incorporate in your practice as an artist and Jessica, you want to go first or me? I'll go first. OK. I think this. Though the. I would like to I hope to take forward this accessibility to my community, to my fellow artists, this the conversation that is happening because of that accessibility. I'm really hoping that we that we don't once once I move into into spaces or that the those actual like the actual walls don't don't become walls of of communicating in terms of my my awareness and my curiosity about the whole the whole landscape and the whole community. That's what I hope. I think. Great. Good. I would say I would say to myself. When this is changing, I'm not going to say when we're back, because I think we'll never be back is to say what I've learned is to slow the fuck down. We've been we've been going faster and faster over the last 30, 40 years. The the pulse and the time signature of our world has sped up to a place that is inhuman and inhumane. And I would just want to repeat, slow the fuck down. And printing t-shirts as we speak. Great. It really was. And Bo Gart on tempo, slow the fuck down. Thank you so much. And thank you, Jess. And especially thank you, Robert. You've been awesome. Once again, say I'm so sorry about this time screw up. It's actually, I think our viewers got double double double for their money, which was free anyway. So we're all worked out and we're delighted. We also want to acknowledge our long standing partners at stage directors and choreographers Society, the Pasadena Playhouse, Boston Court Pasadena. We look forward to reuniting with them next year. We hope you'll join us again tomorrow for an amazing conversation between Ann Janes and Carly Wachstein, who will be discussing using intimacy direction to teach to create a culture of consent post COVID. Thank you for being with us today. And we hope this conversation sparks a whole lot more. Farewell. Thank you, guys. Sorry. No, you're great. Don't you worry. And video out, mute out. Here we go.