 As the expiration date for the signing of the Electoral Act Amendment Bill passes, lawmakers gear up to override President Sahari and pass the document into law. And the People's Democratic Party PDP out the ruling APC, which is the Overgressive Congress, asking them to explain its connections with the killings in the country. Well, this is Plus Politics. I am Mary Anacoff. The House of Representatives might override President Mohammad Buhari on the yet-to-be-accented Electoral Amendment Bill. Now, this is because the constitutional 30 days window given to the president to give all withhold his assent to the bill has elapsed. Now, Sunday, December 19, 2021, was the deadline marking the exact 30 days the bill was transmitted to the president to sign into law. As it now, there is no communication from the president to the House on whether he will be giving all withholding his assent. Recall that two major contentious clauses in the bill were the electronic transmission of election results and the direct mode of primaries for political parties. Now, the presidential spokesperson, Garabashe, who had spoken on this particular issue, saying that the president is not legally bound to publicly declare his decision on the amendment bill. Well, joining us to discuss this and break it down is John Goll Labor, is a former speaker of the Cross River State House of Assembly, and Gide Ologo, who is a legal practitioner. Thank you very much, gentlemen, for joining us. Good evening. Thank you very much. Good evening. Thank you very much. Thank you for joining us. I'm going to start with you, Gide, as a lawyer before I go to John to give us some of the models of Brandy on the floor of the National Assembly. But the 30 days has elapsed. Every single person is wondering what's next, because the president hasn't spoken officially. Garabashe, who is saying that the president does not necessarily have to give his assent publicly. In other words, he might do it privately. But every single person is wondering what should be next. Legally, from a legal perspective, what should be the next action that should be taken? Okay. Let's lay your foundation. There are about eight steps in making a law. You talk about the introduction of the bill. Then you talk about the first reading, second reading, reference to the committee, then the report stage, and the third reading of the bill, and signing of a copy of the bill by the National Assembly that will be forwarded to the president for his assent. And Section 4 of the Nigerian Contrary 1999 as amended gives the National Assembly, at the federal level, the power to make laws for the peace, order, and good government of Nigeria. And the president is expected to sign the bill into law within 30 days. And if he refuses to sign it, we call it battle, which means that he has refused to sign. And if we had a comment that, okay, go and review these clauses in the bill, and we have not received any reports to that effect now, and what happens in that situation is that that bill is returned for reconstruction to the National Assembly that may reconsider it, look at the comments of the president and streamline it to meet his expectations, then return to him for final enactment, signing, assent of the president. And in a situation where the president does not pass any comment and does not sign the bill into law, then the National Assembly has the better power also to, you know, by two-thirds of the majority in the House, pass it into law. If they come to the conclusion that the president is trying to use discretionary power on necessary. Don't forget, like I said earlier, the purpose of the National Assembly is to make law for the peace, order and good government of Nigeria. And stage we are now, it's not clear why the president has not assented to the bill over there to him. For the National Assembly has the power to battle that decision. And the big question now is that will they exercise that power? Let me understand the relationship between the executive and the legislative arm of government, particularly when it appears that the Senate president will want to flow in the line of the president. Well, let me go to John to explain more to us. A lot of people have wondered why there's been so much silence. Over 20 hours, people are still waiting to hear from the president and nothing's coming from the president. And just like Chile has said, he depends on what the president decides to do if he's going to make comments or not. But now the other million-dollar question is, will the National Assembly have the guts to sign this or pass this bill into law? Being that, a lot of things are riding on it, including the 2020s re-elections. Yes, I think that now you have to distinguish between politics and law. The law is there, now you have to go to politics. The legislature is an arm of government. The executive is one arm, the judiciary is one arm. There's a relationship, management strategy that holds all this arm together. The Senate president, you know, the Speaker of the House of Rights, being by camera, you know, are both members of the ruling party, the APC. You will realize that before then they had an agreement with the president to urge him to sign the bill. Now the president has no sign. Naturally, the president has to transmit his support back to the House to say, I'm unable to sign this, I'm not unable to sign it. Give this reason. So the legislature can look at it and call the bill back. The other option is to override the president. I think it would be difficult to override the president. They have the power to override him, but the political relationship that existed between the Senate and the House of Rights represented by the speaker and the president of the Senate, I don't think they will override the president. What I already see happening is that there will be some kind of information transmitted, maybe not officially from the president to go to the speaker, the president of the Senate. What I have seen, what my analysis is that the president is okay with the electronic transmission of results. So if that bill is forwarded at a certain bill, he may sign it. The president is not okay with the issue of imposing a particular format of conducting promise on all political parties, insisting that all must be by direct primary. I think the argument what the Senate may do in the circumstance is for them to include in the clause, provide the options of direct or indirect promise and lead it to the political parties. If that happens, that would be in line with Article 5 of the Constitution. I think the president can sign at that point. But for now, my experience of the legislature, the ruling party will not want to confront the president. This is not the first time this is happening. It may matter that in 2000, part-time and single-president, on the NDPC Act, what you have at the NDPC Act was rejected by our passenger with reasons. It reduced the 13% and said it was 3% and from the 3% the communities we donate, NDPC communities we donate will only be given 1.3. And overriding the president in that regard. Now that kind of situation may not arrive at this time. So what I see happening is that there is going to be some kind of understanding between both houses of the legislature and the National Assembly, and then there is going to be some transmission of information. So either through the attorney general or the estate of the president of the legislature. My experience of being in the special shows that there is already a lot of information that is going around. Yes, but if I understand what you are saying, you are saying that this all will be judged on the scale or on the basis of politics and not necessarily the people here. You are saying that because of who the speaker and deputy speaker is or who the senate president and the deputy senate president is, it might be difficult. But where does the interest of us Nigerians come in? Because if you have said, you gave us an instance of overriding in 2000 when the senate had overrided Mr. President on the basis of the NDPC Act. But I am asking, we the people are okay with the things that are in the Electoral Act bill that is being amended right now. And if Mr. President is not okay with what is in it and this is what the National Assembly agrees with and this is what the people agree with, this is what INEC has okayed. What is stopping the National Assembly? Why should politics be prioritized over the interest of the people? This is where I am going with all of this gibberish. That's what I am saying that first of all, when you get to the legislation, you must understand the relationship between law and politics. It's not a big member of the National Assembly that is a lawyer. National Assembly is made up of more lawyers and people who are nominated are representative of their parties. In the National Assembly, there is a caucus of each of the political parties. We have the ITC caucus and the PDP caucus, represented by the leader of the House and the minority leader of the House. That is majority and minority leader. A lot of politics will go on. The PDP, the governors from sector 4, which is not a part of the legislature already is opposed to that bill. We are totally general from what we think is also opposed to it. There is going to be a lot of pressure. Most of the National Assembly members may listen to their governors. Most of the senators may listen to their governors. Some of them may listen to their political parties. The governors are going to move in and begin to lobby their members of the National Assembly. They are senators and members of House of Representatives. As a member of the PDP, I can tell you that we are not opposed to the Direct Committee, but we are opposed to the fact that the National Assembly by the electorate are going to be imposed on the political party. We need to have an option, whether it is direct or indirect. Our constitution is very clear on the mood of our family. By the time we insist on the Direct Committee, we either have to pull the convention and amend our constitution to insist on that, or we have to go down and begin to protect. Either way, politically, there is going to be a lot of lobbying that will happen. The National Assembly will not immediately convene tomorrow. They may not have the number of the forum. A lot of members are out on Christmas activities and all of that. So what we should watch out for is what is going to go behind in the relationship cycle between the caucus of the leaders of the APC and the PDP, the minority and the other caucus. And then also look at the interests of the governor and the interests of the executive in this situation. I doubt whether this National Assembly, that has been a yes National Assembly, people have called them a Robustam National Assembly or vetoed the president. We will override the president's veto. I doubt if that will happen. Issues are complex. They will see what to work with the president. And I think that the issues in the law, you can streamline them into two. With respect to the Direct Transition of votes, remember that the National Assembly had voted against it. Eventually they came back, did a new term and voted for it. So that is not an issue. One of the strategies we are seeing coming out is that they may stain the issue of the electronic transmission. So at the single bill, the president will sign it. The second aspect, which is the controversy now, is the issue of electoral primaries. And for what I've seen from the governor's forum and some PDP members, what they want is for the law to have the option of direct and indirect, so better for the political parties. Let it be the national convention of the parties that will not choose the mode of the primaries. Don't insist by law that all of us will do direct primaries. That is where the issue is. Okay. Back to you, Paesta Ulugu. Where is the sense of urgency in all of this? Because everybody's also... Like John Gould just said, you might not have a quorum if you decide to reconvene the National Assembly now. Most people are on holiday. And like I said earlier on at the beginning, there's a lot that is riding on this. He's made a case for certain political parties not being okay with the imposition of direct primaries. Even though a lot of people have pointed to it as something that would help to make our democracy somewhat robust, it would be free, fair and credible. But we do not know, this is subject to debate. But again, as he has said, this seems to be something that might not be conclusive anytime soon. It looks like it's going to drag through 2022 with all of the, according to him, lobbying and the back and forth as to the controversies within the act. You know, all these have been presented to the president. When you talk about 30 days, you are talking about 30 calendar days within which all the lobbying that have been carried out, I read a report that the Atom General of the Federation who is a legal officer has advised the president even on the issue of direct primaries. And he's in a position as a legal advisor to the president is that the direct primaries may create fresh issues. For example, are we now saying that all the parties already have their constitution? We have to go and amend their constitution since they've had the option of either direct or indirect primaries under the electoral act of 2010. You see then, considering the cost also, as we speak right now, INEC has, you know, come out to say that they require about around five billion era to conduct 2023 elections. And recall that the 2019 election caused the nation about 189 billion era. So when you look at all this, if this matter is very serious and if democracy is a serious issue for the National Assembly and the presidency, the 30 days are long enough to fine tune everything and pass this bill into law. And if there are issues, the parties need to go and manage. They need to go and manage it at their own level. I mean, when some argue that the direct primaries will cost more money than necessary, I want to ask a simple question right now. Deviating from what we are discussing to the light environment in a lighter mood, how did Big Brother Niger, how did they conduct the elections that led to the winner of that context? You see, we are in the era of technology but the processes are totally different versus the processes that are, you know, are undertaken are totally different. You can just send a text on your phone and it's recorded as a vote, but that's not the same thing when it comes to casting your vote in a general election. If not, then... I mean, that system can be easily rigged. I could send 30 messages and have 30 votes. That's totally different. We have discussed it. Even the direct primaries, if you ask all card carriers to come and vote expressly, they can be bribed, they can be intimidated, they can be manipulated. So if we decide as section 15, section 5 of the Nigerian Constitution as amended says, that the state shall abolish corruption and abuse of power, if we decide to deal with corruption, we have processes that are less costly than what we spend now and what we have taken. I totally agree with you, but I'm saying that we cannot compare the voting system that is it deloitte one of those people who use in gathering votes for Big Brother. We cannot compare it to how INEC gathers votes for a general election and anywhere else in the world. Let me add this question, man. Now, let's assume and we don't pray for it that another wave of serious COVID-19, even more serious than COVID-19, comes when the parties are to have their primaries and the only option open is for them to have these primaries, direct primaries by technology. We don't have it. I mean, let's look at all this. You asked a question, where is the interest of the people? $105 billion to conduct 2023 election. That's what INEC is asking for now and you and I know that what do we get from the government will be more than this. So how long do we continue on borrowed money? So why can't you simplify processes and let parties go and sort themselves out? Roll out this law and even if your position is that you want to leave the clause in the bill that has been the Electoral Act of 2010 that gives the parties the option of direct primaries and indirect primaries, then go ahead and do that. If what is disturbing you is the electronic transfer of results, then send your comments nationalizingly and INEC came out to say they do not have any problem with electronic transfer of results because you recall that when that issue came up, it was thrown onto debate. The wanted NCC to be the one to agree with INEC whether to deploy technology or not. No, let us develop our institution. Let's add a system that can be trusted. The whole essence of coming up with electoral laws is so that we can have free, fair and credible election, not just by local evaluation but by global evaluation. We need to rise up and like the former president of the USA Thomas Jefferson said we do not have government by the majority. We have government by the majority who participate. So you need to allow people to participate. Enough of these manipulations and the big weeks have it all. And on the side of the governors, you can understand their sentiments. If the president evaluates also some of the reasons why the governors are not comfortable with the direct primaries is because under the indirect primaries delegates will go and represent the members of the party. And you know what can happen. Delegates can be easily settled and whatever decision they take is binding on the party members. And the direct primaries is saying all of you can now come and choose who we will represent you and we all know that those we choose at the primary level will go and represent also. Whether they get there to represent us or not, let the people even have the input. Perhaps if they have the opportunity of choosing the candidate they are persuaded to represent them. Rather than some money backs and the party just coming out to say no this is the party I had, the candidate I have endorsed. And the delegates we endorse also. And we then go ahead to fill them out in general elections. And then one other president former president of the U.S. Abraham Lincoln a respected figure in democracy said that the bad Lord is stronger than the bullets. So if indeed we are going to begin to diminish the banditry and the criminality associated with elections in the country then we should come up with laws that will sanitize the processes. And that is my position. And now the president has not ascended to the bill and I have not read of any reason for not doing that as required by the laws of the land then let's see like my colleague in the analysis mentioned earlier do you trust this night assembly to be able to confront the president and veto this bill into law and these are questions. So at the end of the day who are they really representing their interest or the interest of the people and permit me to echo that the purpose of having the legislature is for the peace order and good government of the nation by virtue of laws that come out of that that arm of government. So we are we are watching and waiting to see the outcome of this on pass. Jungle CSOs have told the president that he is the biggest threat to democracy in the country and all of this is because of the delay misread body language coming from the Mr. President and of course the response by his personal aid saying that he is communicating privately with members of the national assembly on this issue but CSOs seem not to be okay with this but then the other issue that I wanted to bring up was what by a lot of us pointed out as to political parties having to deal with the issue of direct primaries suck it up I think in a way and do the needful he also talked about the issue of financing I think INEC recently came out to say that political parties are going to bear the monetary burden of conducting direct primaries because the first issue the first concern was that people were wondering if the government had to pay or INEC had to fund all of those direct primaries depending on how they were staggered but now they have come out to say political parties are going to be the ones who would shoulder that if it becomes law but again I want to know why the PDP is mostly against it is it about the finances or is it about the modus operandi Mr. Lebo can you hear me Mr. Lebo can you hear me yes okay it's a question for me no no it's for John Gull I don't know if you can hear me I don't think we have him but okay I'm going to come back to you I don't want to cost that connection with John Gull but INEC has come out to say that these monies you heard the question I was asking him that these monies or the funding of these direct primaries are going to be mostly done by political parties meaning that it's going to have to cost them a lot more and don't forget that Nigerians also have concerns about how expensive these tickets are for running for these offices in the first instance so that might also mean increasing the amount of monies and there's a cap also as to how much political parties are to spend even though most of these political parties have refused to declare you know how much they spend per election so these are all of the issues that we might be having to reanalyze before Mr. President finally put spend to paper so going forward commendably INEC came out to tell the world that issue of direct primaries is the concern of the parties and I quite agree with that so if they are cost effective in their parties they will minimize the expenditure and mobilize funds to have effective primaries to nominate candidates that will come and represent them so leave that to the parties then let INEC be concerned about the management of the general elections even though INEC also will carry out oversight functions during the primaries let it be the headache of the parties to facilitate that you know let's give consideration to how this country developed and I can let you know that globally the best practice is to minimize costs from year to year and that is why you come up with innovation that is why you come up with different kinds of inventions to ensure the life is simpler and again that you have what we call inclusiveness that people are included and it's a core kernel in the tennis of democracy it has to be participatory you see and that's what we give people the sense of belonging and that is what also we give politicians the mindset that hey these people are interested in what I'm going to do there they have all come together to nominate me not just a few inflation ones that gather together and I found my way so they can also recall and again I want to see even all these laws we have do we implement them we just mentioned the case now that the National Assembly has the power to vet to the president but such days are gone now what are we going to see even though it is it's been disclosed that the House of Reps may be trying to override the president but you know that we have it by camera legislature we have the Senate made up of one and nine senators we have the House of Reps made up of 360 representatives made up of a bouquet of different parties and the dominant party we really want to rise up recently you saw what happened to the bill of Ulujimi in the House the bill on gender gender equality now some rules off and said no it's against culture and religion and stuff like that so we are asking for the prominence of the people this country needs security this country needs good welfare this country needs prosperity what can we do to get to that to that state and the electoral process is critical in all these electronic transmission we reduce poverty and snatching of ballot boxes you see pegging the expenditure of the parties we reduce the influence of money but you know by the time we finally graduate to e-voting then we can sit in the comfort of our homes and not need to be printing ballot papers and stuff like that for those who belong to professional bodies that we carry out e-voting very wonderful, seamless no gra gra no shaking you know so that's what we are asking for let's move up let's move up as a nation so we wish the president and the national assembly the wisdom to cross the bridge where we are now because the world is also monitoring us to see how effective our constitutional provisions are and so and we do not in any way give the impression that we can hover around the rule of law all right barista judeo logun is a legal practitioner we also want to say thank you to john gall labor he's a former speaker of the cross with the state house of assembly unfortunately we lost him the connection to him while we were having this conversation thank you so much for being here barista logun thank you god bless nigeria well thank you all for staying with us coming up on plus politics the pdp he accuses the apc of fading to curb insecurity in the country we'll talk about it absolutely