 Good afternoon. I am Celeste Watkins Hayes, the Joan and Sanford Wildean of the Gerald R. Ford School of Public Policy here at the University of Michigan. And I also serve as the founding director of the Center for Racial Justice here at the Ford School. I'm delighted to welcome all of you this afternoon to our policy talks at the Ford School event. Today's event is part of the Harry A. and Margaret D. Towsley Foundation lecture series hosted by our Towsley policymaker and residents Judge Laurel Beatty Blunt. Judge Beatty Blunt sits on the 10th District Court of Appeals in Columbus, Ohio to which she was elected in 2018. She's previously served on the Franklin County Court of Common Pleas for nine years. Her legal career started in private practice and then moved to the public sphere when she became director of legislative affairs and counsel to the Voting Rights Institute for the Ohio Secretary of State. In that role, Judge Beatty Blunt served as liaison to the Ohio General Assembly and 88 county boards of elections. Of course, election integrity remains a potent issue today. She will be speaking with Michigan Supreme Court Justice Kyra Harris Bolden. Welcome. Governor Gretchen Whitmer appointed Justice Bolden to the bench just one year ago, making her the first black woman to serve on the state's highest court. She had been a state legislator in the Michigan House for four years and prior to that she worked in private practice and also as state attorney in the third circuit court of Wayne County and is a court appointed criminal defense attorney for the 46th District Court of Southfield. These two judicial leaders have their own stories about their journeys to the bench and their stories go back generations. As Judge Beatty Blunt described to me in different ways, their grandfathers endured racism, exclusion and barriers of all kinds. And now here they are. While we, of course, continue to confront racism and bigotry, we can see progress through their stories. We look forward to an interesting and enlightening discussion. There will be time for questions at the end. We have two colleagues here who will be passing around microphones. So look out for them during the Q and A. Katrina's here. Wonderful. With that, please join me in welcoming the judges, Judge Beatty Blunt and Justice Bolden. Dean Walkente, the judges, it makes it sound we need to take this on the road. I love that. Exactly. Justice Bolden, first of all, thank you, thank you a million times over for being here. It was somewhat of a professional courtesy from one judge to another. So thank you very much for lending us your time. My pleasure. So I wanted to start with history. Yes. For me, I was a question asker as a child. And so I heard a lot of my grandparents' stories. And so I am very aware that the, really the success of my family came from my grandfather owning one of two black restaurants that black people were permitted to dine at in Columbus, Ohio. You know, through them telling me about history, you know, I learned that their restaurant was in the Green Book. The Green Book being kind of the guide for black travelers of that time of restaurants and hotels it was safe to go to. I mean, the Green Book was their marketing plan. Talk a little bit about your family's history with racism. Yeah, so I've been very public about my family's history because I think it's important to know a person's motivation for engaging, especially on this level. And for me, I was a question asker, but this the story of my great grandfather was actually never discussed. Yes. Yes. In our family, my great grandmother, who I had the great fortune of having until senior year of college. Oh, yeah. Wonderful, wonderful woman. So it was when she was getting older in between her stories and her boys, which were the Tigers baseball game and looking out of her window and, you know, making sure everything was on the up and up. She would just start telling me stories. She wanted to tell me recipes and all these different things. And she told me the story of my great grandfather, Jesse Lee Bond. And he was a cotton farmer in Tennessee. And he was lynched in 1939 after asking the store owner for a receipt. And a question that I usually get is why would someone be lynched for asking for a receipt? And my response is always it wasn't the receipt, it was the audacity. Right, right. For a 19, 20 year old to essentially want verification that the store owner was being truthful about what was owed and how much things cost, right? And so a lynch mob ensued and Jesse Lee Bond was beaten and castrated and thrown into the local river. And the coroner deemed it an accidental drowning. And there is a documentary about this lynching called Accidental Drowning. If there's anyone that's interested, my family did a wonderful job telling the story of my great grandfather. But as a result, his murders were acquitted of the crime because of the coroner's designation that it was an accidental drowning. And in hearing that, I always had a strong sense of justice, which I'm sure you did too. I would always, my favorite phrase growing up was that's not fair. You probably said it just like that. I did. I did. My mama says time for bed. That's not fair. Because my sister stayed up until, you know, whatever time when she was my age. I literally, I would bring and bring the receipts, right? So hearing that, and then there are some other things that happened, but it just kind of fueled my sense for justice. And realizing that it happened in my own family, it made it really real for me that it wasn't just something that happened in history, which I knew, but that it was only a couple generations removed from me that government sanctioning justice was the norm. Right, right. And isn't it, it is impactful that this is your family story and someone who you love, who is a part of your family was the one that told it to you. It wasn't something that you read in a book or you saw in a movie. And so I would imagine for you, like me, when your family's story is questioned or not received well, it can be very hurtful. Yeah, I did have several people reach out to me and tell me that I was disgusting for essentially using my family's story to try to garner support. And I will say behind the scenes, I had to have a really deep conversation with my family members, my mother, my grandmother who's still living to make sure that it was okay to tell this story because it had been kept from me until I was an adult in college. And so the hurt and the pain and anger that's associated with it is very real. And I would have never discussed it without having that conversation with my family because it was difficult for them. Right. You know, it wasn't even just about me, but I also had to explain that it is important to tell these stories. It is important for people to know that we are not so far removed and that history can repeat itself if we're not vigilant. And so, you know, the comments, they bothered me at first, but then at some point you just get a sense of resolve, which you just have to build up and just say, look, this is me, this is my story, this is my family, and this is who I am. And I can't shy away from that. And if you make a decision to not, you know, support me or what, then that just has to be your decision. But I can't change what happened in my family. And I'm also going to continue to discuss it because I think it's important. It's an important part of my story and important to who I am and important to our society as well. But there were many conversations about actually me being vocal about that, my great-grandfather's story. And it can even lead to some, you know, knowledge of your history could even lead to some interesting moments in law school when you're taught, you know, like constitutional law, criminal law, criminal procedure. And did you, like me, find yourself sometimes thinking, oh, but not necessarily for everyone or, man, how many things in the Bill of Rights were violated with Emmett Till case alone? Right. I mean, just so many things. And when you say we the people, who are we talking about? When you say that women were able to vote, which women were able to vote at a particular time? And I think, you know, there needs to be real truth telling because how can you explain where we are today without understanding our history? Right. And why this is so momentous for a lot of people? For example, I shouldn't say obviously. I'm the first black woman to sit on the Michigan Supreme Court for those that didn't know. And I don't say that for a pause. And actually, it kind of makes me cringe because it's 2023. And to me, it's just unacceptable. Right. You're taking my next question, actually. I'm sorry. No, go ahead. Go ahead. Okay. I'm sorry. Unhook the other one. Okay. No, please go ahead. Oh, no, knowing all of that. I'm the first black woman on my court, too. And I just when I when someone told me that I just never really thought I'm like, wow, it's it's this century. And they're still first. Like I just didn't exactly. And that's exactly how I felt or feel still to this day, because it's almost you have to celebrate it because of our history. But if you don't acknowledge it, it's almost as if saying that there was not a qualified black woman before me, right? And then that's not the case. I have supported and and worked towards this goal for years. Because I think representation is so important. And so I it's it's really hard for me to say that I'm the first black woman because I know a lot of the black women that have that fought so hard for this position. And again, it's 2023. This is just unacceptable. This is unacceptable. So. But we just have to make sure that, you know, we might be the first, but that doesn't mean that there's not going to be a second, third and fourth. Absolutely. So tell me a little bit about your journey to the bench. Okay, I know it goes through the State House. It does and I'll skip ahead to that. But well, maybe I won't because I think other things were really important, especially to you all because I know a lot of people see me and they're just thinking or sometimes maybe you're not. Maybe I shouldn't assume she has it all together. You know, she's been planning this since she was two years old. And the fact of the matter is I never intended on going to law school or pursuing a career in law until really my senior year and obviously the story of my great grandmother happened. And quite frankly, I didn't want to be a psychologist, but I got my psychology degree because we're not starting over. Am I right? Okay, right. So I actually had to take a year off because I did not plan to go to law school right after college. So I took a year off, studied for the LSAT, went to law school and and graduated at a time where the economy was absolutely terrible. They were talking about making the bar exam even harder to reduce the amount of attorneys because there weren't any jobs. And so because of the relationships that I built and being part of bar organizations and things like that, I actually had a couple of judges that pulled me aside and they said, you know, obviously you take a course to do criminal law to get certified to get court appointed cases, but they said you can take court appointed cases in my court. And that's how I initially got my start. One of the judges that I practice in front of Judge Sheila Johnson who also ran for Michigan Supreme Court, we became very, very close. When there was a job available for Judge Johnny Murphy, who I clerked for, that job wasn't posted. He sent it to one of the bar associations. She said, you need to apply for this job. I'm sending you a recommendation. Send your application today. So he ended up, obviously I interviewed and sent writing samples, but he ended up selecting me. Now again, this was a position that was not posted. And so if anybody can garner anything from this conversation, there are going to be a lot of jobs that are not posted. You have to build your network enough that when something comes available, you get the call. And that is just how a lot of it works. It is who you know. Obviously you have to be prepared. You have to do well. You have to be qualified, but you also have to be in the room. And because I had been in the room, you know, I was referred. When I went to my civil litigation practice, that job wasn't posted. My partner was actually one of my mentors through a bar association that I was a part of. And she had, we had had lunch once a year and just kept the relationship never expected to work for her. But I was clerking as a judicial law clerk and she texted me and said, hey, my law firm is looking for an associate. Would you be interested? I don't know how many other people she texted, but I have a feeling that I might have been one of three. So I very unprofessionally said, yes, I did. I texted her back because we were friends at the time. I said, I am so sorry. I will send my resume and close the business and my writing samples. And again, that's just how a lot of this works and even running for state representative. I had to be asked, you know, I was at my law firm job. I'm doing civil litigation. I was thinking about maybe running for city council. Definitely running for the state house was not on my radar at all. But sometimes people will see something in you that you don't see in yourself. And that's why you have to continuously work hard. And it may not be as, you know, boisterous as others, but people are watching you. They're watching everything you do. And I'm always a person that just kind of quietly does the work and you know, minds my business. So I was asked to run for the house seat multiple times because I said, no, I've never run a campaign before. I've never, never done that. They finally convinced me. And I took a leave from my law firm job and thankfully they were supportive of that. And they said, if you win, then great. If you lose, you can come back. And that comes from building great relationships that I had with them. So I knew I had a safety net. But I also didn't have any income. So I used all my savings and I ended up winning my primary with 45% of the vote with five opponents because there was, when I put my mind to something, I'm going to work hard. It may not be super loud, but I'm going to do what's necessary. And so how we got here, I'm just trying to make sure that people know that it wasn't, one, I wasn't plucked out of obscurity because they, because people think that a lot about particularly black women in positions of power. And so I just want to address that. I was not plucked out of obscurity and certainly not a token. But I was quietly doing the work in the legislature. I was able to get five bills passed into law, sat on the judiciary committee for four years, built great relationships within my caucus and across the aisle. Because as you know, we served in the minority. So if you don't have great relationships, you don't get a bill passed. And that's right. Or if you don't have a good idea, you're not going to get it. You wouldn't have gotten to five much less. No, no, no, no. But some of the bills that I was able to get passed were just common sense. So amending the medically frail act, which allowed for parole for those that were in prison that met the criteria. So people that were in, there are people in prison that are in commas that can't get parole because of how the law worked. It's a great use of tax dollars. Again, I was just trying to save people money and help, right? The address confidentiality act, which I just read is going into effect now, which conceals the address of victims of sexual violence. And I amended the wrongful imprisonment compensation act so that more people were able to get compensated for if they were wrongly in prison. Okay. So I'm just minding my business quietly doing the work. And in June of 2021, I was asked to run for the Michigan Supreme Court. And I said no. Because I am 34. I have a great job that I love in the legislature. I'm making a huge difference for my community and people across the state of Michigan. So I didn't really see a benefit for me to run much less against two incumbents. There were there were a lot of negatives here. And if I didn't win, then I would be giving up my job in the legislature, right? But what ended up happening was I got pregnant. And as much as my thought process initially was, I don't want to run for office, a statewide office, while being pregnant, while having a full time job in the legislature. As my baby girl grew inside, my narrative switched to how could I ever tell my child that she could be anything that she wanted to be. And I had the opportunity to have an impact on the Michigan Supreme Court or to just even run for that representation. It just means so much to so many people. And I didn't take that opportunity. And that weighed with me so much so that I decided to run. So we're here because I didn't want to be a hypocrite. So I'm sorry. What other words? When I put my mind to something. So that was my journey. So you get on the bench. You're a 34-year-old black woman. And I'm just going to say it too. And you're attractive. Because I think being attractive can be tricky for women, particularly in a profession like the law, and particularly in a job like judge. Being pretty can hurt you. Because people, you know when they think of a judge, they think of an older, white, wise man. And that was not you. You might have been wise, but people had to get to a lot of things before they could ever tell whether you were wise or not. No, that's very true. And I'm also very, you know, I'm just also very, as some may describe, and this may not be the right word, but I'm very extroverted. Some might say bubbly. You know, I'm shyly. Some might say. And I went somewhere and the person that I was there to see didn't know that I was the justice. And she said, you don't look mean. Judges look mean. I would have never known that you were the justice. And so, yeah, I mean, that is an extra layer of just, I will say this. Being young, people will assume that you're unqualified. Exactly. Being a black woman, people are going to assume that you're unqualified. Being pregnant. Oh, yes. Or having young kids. People are going to assume that you cannot do the job. Or what are you doing out here trying to do the job? Are you supposed to be at home? Yeah, go sit at home and bake, right? And so I definitely had a lot of things that I had to combat as far as a narrative. But I just decided I'm going to be mean and I'm just going to bring my full self to the table. And I think it's important that in some ways, the judiciary is going to have to change because of me and not the other way around. I think that I bring skills and experiences that none of the current justices have. And I think that that's how it's supposed to be. That's why there are seven of us to bring diversity and thought process because Michiganders are not a monolith and neither should our courts. And so I am very happy that 1.3 million people saw fit to vote for me in that election. But I did still lose, so I just want to be clear. I acknowledge that I lost that election. And then, yes, was appointed by the governor. So that could not have been easy because you don't travel around an entire state. Pregnant. Pregnant. And all that comes with that, right? You don't travel around an entire state pregnant and work that hard for something and not be disappointed. So how did you get back up? You know, I at that point, well, let me start by saying, when I entered the race, I knew that there was a very, very high likelihood that I wouldn't make it, right? So I'm not, I don't think that I'm just that great that overcoming two incumbents is very, very difficult to do and I knew that going in. Again, for me, it was important that representation was at the table so that we could continue to move the needle. But I did work very hard. And, you know, I went to the UP when I was seven months pregnant and then two months postpartum. And some of you may know that I accepted the nomination for Michigan Supreme Court six days after giving birth. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. There are videos, there are videos of that at Kyra H. Bolden. Follow me on social media. But yeah, so I got up and did a speech and just, you know, just accepted the nomination. So worked extremely hard. So it was very disappointing for me when I didn't win even though I knew all the odds were stacked against me. But I was almost instantly uplifted and it was funny because I was still getting phone calls if I'm so sorry. And I was, but I looked at the numbers and like I said, when 1.3 million people take the time to, I'm sorry, I'm still like a year postpartum so I get emotional very quickly. But, you know, with 1.3 million people in Michigan took the time to bubble in my name. And so I was instantly uplifted because that is such an honor in and of itself that even though I lost that election it just, it really touched me. That my message resonated with people for those types of numbers. Well, if you got 1.3 million votes pregnant imagine what happens next time. You know, when your feet aren't swollen. Yes, yes, absolutely. So I want to talk to you a little bit about what you see in the future. You know, even within the law our nation is very polarized right now on lots of different things. You know, there are a lot of people that are feeling disillusioned particularly about the law's impact on racism. Tell me, having served on the bench now having gone from the legislative branch to the judicial branch, what's your take? You know, I am just so hopeful because even just looking at this audience this audience could be anywhere doing anything right now and you're taking the time to listen to the both of us and I just have so much hope for the future. What I have seen from this generation has been amazing, the level of enthusiasm the level of activism and the level of demanding change. It just uplifts me. I am so inspired by this next generation by my own generation too. I guess we're still technically young. But definitely by the next generation just the level of being involved knowing what's going on and fighting for what they believe in I think our future is in good hands and I'm very, very hopeful. How would you say, you know because these are students at the University of Michigan that have very well respected University and I'm saying that even though I'm from Ohio but anyway, you know what would you tell them, Justice Bolden about preparing themselves for leadership? I've talked in both of my classes teaching here like you have to be prepared for when you are the decision maker. Talk a little bit about that. I would just say leadership is so important. For you to be a mentor and for you to have mentors I have mentors that are younger than me. So I'm not talking about age someone that has a different experience than you that you can learn from and always be concerned about imparting your knowledge on somebody else you can't be in the competition mindset because you never know what your career will take you who you'll run into and what will be a full circle moment. For example, Justice Bridget Marie McCormick who was a professor here who was my predecessor her campaign was the first campaign I ever worked on. Okay. And she robed me the first time I put on a robe she literally took off her robe and put it on my back. It was a very special moment. It was. You can go to Kyra H. Bolden on Instagram to see that video too. But it was a wonderful full circle moment and I've had those throughout my career and so networking getting to know as many people as possible mentorship but you also have to learn to follow before you can lead and I know that's going to be unpopular to say but how do you know what you like what you don't like what your style might be if you haven't had those experiences? So the judge that I worked for was a baby boomer or he is a baby boomer he's still alive he's just retired he is a baby boomer and so it was get to the office before you don't leave until the judge leaves you know it was very very stringent and I loved having that experience because now I understand how I run my chambers is just a little bit different you know I always had to call the judge judge never you know by their first name so my staff call me Kyra but I'm glad I had those experiences with different bosses or different partners or whatever so that I knew my style of how I wanted to lead and not to say that anything that anybody did was bad I had really good experiences but I was just able to hone my own leadership skills by being a good employee being a good follower being a good mentee I am teaching this semester a class on state and local courts and one of the things that I've talked a lot about in my class is that yes it is easier to study federal law particularly when it comes to like criminal justice but there are so many areas that impact everyday people's lives that are exclusively a matter that's in state courts the courts you're most likely to come in contact with our traffic court which is a local court and unfortunately divorce court so Justice Bolton what is what's your take on the importance of state and local courts in our society well you know for me because I lived in the state of Michigan my entire life and I also had the benefit of making laws right and so being someone that interprets sometimes the law that I voted on I think it is really important I think federal jurisprudence is you know a little bit more sexy oh it is but the state law and how it's interpreted is really what's going to affect your lives what has affected your parents lives and what will affect future generations to come and so that the decisions that the Michigan Supreme Court makes absence you know some intervention at the United States Supreme Court level you know that is binding on the people that live here and so you should absolutely pay attention to who your judges are certainly because they are going to be making decisions about your life how you get sentenced right judges have a lot of discretion but certainly with cases that come to the Michigan Supreme Court we hear the most important and impactful cases for Michiganders and I think it's really important for people to pay attention not only to how we're voting but the cases that are coming up how we're voting but also the temperament of each judge or justice as well is incredibly important I think my prediction is that and it might already be happening in Michigan I think in Ohio it will definitely happen and that is once the Dobs decision sent the question about abortion back to the states that was always going to go through state and local courts once the decision went back to the states and even with Ohio there was an amendment constitutional amendment passed recently and so I'm telling people it doesn't matter what side you're on it doesn't matter whether you agree the importance of the Ohio Supreme Court is going to really come into play so you better pay attention absolutely and we've already seen that here we've passed an amendment there have been lawsuits in the past different decisions that have been made that have been really impactful on Michiganders and it's how the laws were interpreted it might be a constitutional amendment but sometimes those things come to our courts for interpretation because they can't catch everything in a constitutional amendment they can't catch it a former lawmaker here they don't catch everything there's literally no way to contemplate every single situation that will arise when you're crafting a law and so a lot of that is going to end up in the courts for interpretation and how it's interpreted matters and it will be binding on how you live your life especially your court especially your court well yours too because 90 something percent will go to the court of appeals and we take up probably 2 or 3% of court of appeals but for us 90 to 98% will stop at the court of appeals that's true I think the Ohio Supreme Court when they looked at at least my court's district they took 5% of the cases that were appealed from my court so you're right I need to give myself more credit I'm from the court of appeals so I wanted to talk to you about running for judge the electoral process because it was very different I'm sure than when you ran for the state house you have many more rules than you're running statewide versus a state house district how how was that very different very different but kind of the same it's strange I wanted to talk to as many people as possible obviously going from a district of 90,000 to 3 million is a challenge is a feat but for me when I was in the district I'm knocking on 10,000 doors when I was in the state house it was literal door knocking that doesn't work as well on a state level as you might imagine so it's different tactics but as a judge I should say let me step back when you're running for a legislative position people expect you to have an opinion on everything on every single thing if you don't post a holiday people are going to be in your inbox you have to be at a lot of different events and things like that and being a judge obviously you're restricted from you can engage in partisan activities because you still have your first amendment rights but it's a nonpartisan position you're not being too disproportionate in where you go and what you do we also have judicial cannons that prohibit you from engaging in certain levels of speech and things like that are you not allowed to ask for money? we're not allowed to ask for money either which I won't comment but as a legislator that's a big part of your job it's a huge part of your job to ask for money so that's very very different so what you can say the asking for money where you can go very very different a policy maker as a judge we interpret the law other people make the law and so I found that some voters would get frustrated because I could not state a position on a certain policy did you have the same experience? absolutely and especially because I was still in the legislature so now it's a little bit easier to know me as a legislator so I think sometimes people just ask me just different questions because they're expecting that I know or have a response and when I, you know, they'll say what's going on with HB4002 one, I can't answer you but two, I have no clue what the legislature is doing I'm just trying to get through my cases right and I shouldn't and that's the difference so it's I think people are starting to understand the message now but I realize there has to be a lot more education around the role of judges a lot of people think we are policy makers and so I've had people say can you get my family member out of prison I can't, no I can't you know, they're asking for commutations and that is the governor's office so I feel like it's getting a little bit better but I'm hoping that through service in the way that I'm doing it I can also educate people on why this branch of government is important but also are limitations and where they need to go to find the change that they're looking for I understand that some people's attention was brought to the judicial branch because they were angry about something that the US Supreme Court did but I'm still thankful that at least they're paying attention more now Yes, I'm very thankful and it gives me an opportunity to educate more people as to why our courts are so important I think in Michigan we dispose of probably 3 million cases per year on different levels but that's a lot of people affected in our society and so our branch is incredibly important but you can't get anybody out of jail You can't fix parking tickets I don't know anything about your divorce either Thank you! We can't fix parking tickets and we also don't make laws so people have asked me what are you doing about criminal justice reform for example there are some things we can do obviously at the Supreme Court level but as far as I think what they're asking for is more so policy to educate them It's interesting in my class I'm always thinking what do I want policy makers to know about the courts One of my big things is that you always have to think about you can have a grand idea but you always have to think about the administration of it and who's going to pay for it and you might be in an urban county having this great idea but is this great idea going to fit in a rural county Talk a little bit about that I'm sure you have done this too or it might be a possibility but we actually it's hard to say what you would do on the front end of things and how it was made and how it was not made so it's just really hard to say every legislator just like every judge has a different philosophy and some people are really just hyper concentrated on their district and honestly if it affects the rest of the state of Michigan negatively they're okay with that I'm not saying whether that's right or wrong just saying that's a philosophy and some are very concerned with the state of Michigan as a whole the district is as good for the overall state I will say that in some of our opinions at the Supreme Court if there are any policy makers listening we write love letters sometimes we just say this is an area where the legislature should probably take a look and you know what Justice Bolden you know what I would like policymakers to know we need to get language like that in an opinion because other judges will fight you because really what you're doing is just saying here's how you fix it but you can't be advisory so sometimes I wish that policy makers would appreciate what it takes to get them those answers or I mean it's just a little no in saying this is the conclusion that we came to because of the way the law is written but it might be slightly illogical yeah because again we interpret the law and we're bound by that so I would say legislators hopefully have someone designated to read our opinions and even if we don't write a love letter we're covering it in a way that the legislature did not intend then I think it's incumbent upon the legislature to address it sometimes they do and sometimes they don't I can say as being a former legislator a lot of times the judicial branch is just not even on the radar it's just the furthest thing from their minds I think in general though our profession is one where we're in the shadows until someone needs us until someone is in front of us and that's why like I always say when you're in front of the judge it's too late to worry about who the judge is and that's what I tell people we are really the back end of the judicial process so when the laws are conceived that's really where you want to get in on the ground floor because by the time it gets to us and you're relying on our interpretation we're at the back end especially appellate levels like we are because we are bound a lot of times by what happened on that first level by the time it gets to the Supreme Court level you are several levels removed from the conception of whatever that law was that's affecting you and so you got to get in on the front end of things I totally agree well if you don't mind we will open it up to some question and answer period if anyone has any questions for us well I shouldn't volunteer for Jess's Bowl no I'm kidding hello thank you guys both for coming today this was really inspiring and really educational my name is Maeve I'm a junior in the Ford School of Public Policy and I'm currently taking a comparative law class and we've talked a lot about civil law about a bunch of different families of law but about civil law and common law specifically and you guys both touched a little bit and shaped you both going into law but also as people and I guess I'm wondering how does that impact of like your own family's history, your own lived experience kind of inform your position on the court and in the courts because you talked about representation and how important that is and I guess I'm just thinking about the role of judges both in common law and civil law and how civil law is so much more removed and how you think that's really impactful in the system that we have in the US you know I think for one honestly our existence is essential because I know when you go into the courthouse in my county and you look at all the judges pictures everyone is going to see someone who looks like them in my mind from the time you see those pictures to the time you're going up to the courtroom your perception of justice can change after having seen those pictures knowing that there's somebody in a position of authority that looks like you that might understand the issues that you face and things like that so number one I think our very existence you know you can't be what you don't see so I think that that's huge I also think it is imperative that judges go out and tell people what they see from the bench because you can go to any courthouse anywhere and see what's happening in the community for example when I first took the bench I first took the bench during the foreclosure crisis and I was running around blabbing around town that yes I saw some people that signed some mortgage papers where I was like ooh I'm not sure how you thought that was going to work but I also saw those people that were choosing between medical bills and their mortgage that both were true right now our courts are still seeing and the impact of COVID on courts is everywhere everywhere from should I have gotten a ticket for an expired license when the BMBs were shut down all the way to I can't fulfill the terms of my divorce because my business shut down and I can't pay the child support to I'm a lawyer who was trying to stall and you should have given me a divorce because it was COVID and that's my convenient excuse so judges who are willing to go out and talk about what they see reflected from the community in the court is essential because you know I know for me you would never think it would take bravery to say this but it does it takes bravery for me to say in our current times there are both people from whom the public needs protection and people who deserve a second chance depending on who I'm talking to that is radical but you have to have the people who say I'm on the bench this is what I'm seeing please take my word for it because it's lived experience yeah I even though we are interpreting the law we bring chambers that might be how we enter like it's important for me to do these types of events I probably do two to three events per week even now because I think it's important for people to see me and to you know just know a little bit about me there are other judges and justices that have different philosophies you know that believe that they should be hidden and not seen and they should make a decision and then go back and do whatever they want to do I have a different life right you know I think it's very clear that I'm a believer in second chances and things like that now does that mean that you know if a law is clear you know if a law is going to be the law but that might cause me to you know go to you know be present at a new unification day right because I believe that if you work really hard you should be able to have your children back right so it may not manifest itself in ways that it might but I will also say you know there are seven justices on my court we don't always emerge because we're looking through the lens that we have sorry about these is it okay so some of our decisions will be 4-3 or 5-2 and that's partially because someone will say well you know when I was a judge this is how it worked and sometimes I'm thinking well if we're doing statutory interpretation I used to be a legislator and so I know the thought process that goes into making the law right and so I can sometimes bring that experience to the table so that's why it's important to have a diverse court with people that have different lived experiences because it really does make a difference and I just want to say also shout out to Pete Martel who's one of my first law clerks so good to see you hi my name is Arama I'm in the law school thank you so much for this talk it's been really fascinating one question that I have I'm in my third year so next semester is my last semester and I feel like one of the things that has most surprised me about law school is the fact that there is so little focus on like state and local issues despite them constituting so much of where like people actually interact with the legal system so I feel like there's a shortcoming in legal education when we're not even really getting exposed to these issues can you talk about for each of you like how you found your way into this particular, you kind of talked about it but like how you found your way into focusing in state and local issues and then also like what you think law schools can do to better prepare students for practicing for like focusing on these kinds of issues and when they like so much of the focus is on federal law but so much stuff is actually happening at the state and local level, thanks can that be an advertisement for Judge Beatty Blunt's state and local courts class in the public policy school you know as we've discussed you know state and local courts are very important it's you know it's easy especially for a school like Michigan where your students are just going to go everywhere you know it is easier and probably more efficient to focus on the federal one thing that you know if I could be like Nas and rule the world I would change law school a little bit I would make law school a little bit closer to medical school because you know how medical I wouldn't make it four years though so and this isn't totally thought out so don't hold me to this totally but you know how medical school they have like two years of classroom instruction and then they have two years of rotating through different areas of medicine I would make law school closer to that because even I have a lot of law school classmates that kind of fell into their areas of practice one of my friends just really couldn't get a summer internship after first year and just accepted a job and ended up loving it and that's what she's practicing at the same time a lot of people who want to be prosecutors or public defenders law schools don't have a lot to offer them in the way of career services because you know it tends to be so law firm focused so I would change legal training to make it a little bit broader I also would change some thinking out there that where you went to law school and how much money you make is directly correlated to how smart you are because now that I've been on the bench and remember I spent ten years I was ten years law and order I wasn't being a gavel nobody bangs a gavel but I had witnesses next to me and I'm dealing with the jury and all of that and so I have seen my impression is that sometimes where someone went to law school is really not reflective of how smart they were but just more a question of opportunity and that opportunity can go both ways so sometimes you don't have the opportunity to go to an Ivy League for whatever reason and sometimes you do have the opportunity to go for whatever reason so I would not put as much stake in where you went to law school as a judge whether or not you're a good lawyer but I also have seen from that trial court experience they have a reputation as public pretenders instead of public defenders or whatever name you want to call them and it's a very frustrating experience to see someone give up a good public defender scrounge up all their money to pay someone who's not as good as the public defender was so we have to be very careful about law legal education but also the attributes that we put towards people after they get out and I wholeheartedly agree from what from speaking to a lot of my former law school colleagues a lot of people just really fell into their career because that's just where the opportunity was and so they were looking for a job and the prosecutor's office called them first or the law firm called them first and that's kind of where they went I think law schools can provide a little bit more exposure to different areas so I knew one person in law school that had clerk for the Michigan Supreme Court but how do you do that and I will say a lot of these jobs are not posted I post just by the way you can go on the Michigan Supreme Court right now we post our internships and our clerkships but I would say and I'm not an advocate for unpaid labor by any means but shadow people can turn with them because it will save you so much time and money down the line to figure out what you don't want to do I thought at one point I might want to do family law not for me it's just not for me love hate money and children it's the recipe for dynamite it's everything that people care about for some of the hardest cases we receive at the Supreme Court level but you don't know what you don't know and so for me being a judicial clerk in the busiest county in the state of Michigan and the sub level I was able to see what I naturally gravitated to and what cases I loved working on and disposing of and talking to my judge about how I could be a little bit more strategic because I saw a lot of areas of law before I went to a law firm and so when I did go to my law firm I did a little bit of everything I did the defense work I did insurance defense I did corporate litigation I did labor and employment law definitely I think clerking is amazing I think that might be one of the things that law schools can incorporate just pushing or suggesting or making more opportunities available to clerks so you know what you do and you don't want to do again not an advocate for unpaid labor but it will save you so much time and money down the road if you know what you do not want to do I've also noticed that I'll just say people younger than me seem to appreciate more learning not through like reading books and articles they seem to learn to enjoy learning better from the people that are doing it so like you'll see in my class is another time for me anyway that you'll see a lot of guest speakers because there is no benefit like learning from the people who are doing it but I will also go back to one of my points that I made originally which is that you know if that is how you like to learn again prepare yourself to be the decision maker you know be ready for when it's your turn to change legal education to what you think it should be this conversation this is just so rich on many levels so at the University of Michigan we have a nonpartisan initiative called Umich Votes that really focuses on encouraging civic participation and one of the things I was struck by is how difficult it is to get information on judicial candidates outside of the Supreme Court so I remember from my own experience looking up at the Supreme Court candidates and there was information available but the lower courts you go in the court system you go it's really hard to get any kind of sense of people's credentials or records or stances on things why is that and I know Ohio has been doing something to change that where you were telling me Judge Betty Blunt that there's an initiative underway to do more research but in Michigan can you just speak to that what's the reason for that what's the remedy for that because I'm struck by when we go into the ballot room how little we know about judges outside of some of the highest positions let me send you the website of what they do in Ohio yes actually yes it is an issue that the simple answer is because because people don't have to because people will get elected without having a website because people will get elected without going to community events and so there's no motivation for people to do that unless that's demanded of people through how they show support the other issue is it may be the first election but judges in Michigan have six year terms so by the time you know six years rolls around and you can get an incumbency designation it's not saying anything about an incumbency designation but it does signify who has been there and so a lot of people may not think to look up information if they haven't heard anything negative I think the assumption is well they're an incumbent I haven't heard anything they must be doing a good job so then there's no motivation to create a website and do all these things because you know they're doing their job and there's really no system that you know that is a check on that and I would say like there is for some of partisan people but I would say I think legal women voters is starting to do more candidate forums for judges and so you can look up information on their website about participation and I would say if they do have a website but not a lot of information email them call them on their website and say hey can you answer my questions when's your next community event where will you be I would like to speak with you knowing that they can't answer certain questions but just say hey I would like to meet you and see how many people are willing to do that it's interesting can you talk about what they do in Ohio it seems like the lack of information is partly because of the retention election system in Michigan once you become a judge the question on the ballot is should we keep you versus for me I get a fresh opponent every six years so it's a little bit different even what you're going to do in between elections because I don't just get to sit back and say I'm the incumbent don't you think you should keep me you know as you know I'm out there saying hey I'm moral will you help me keep my job it's a completely different calculation so if I'm running for retention election yeah I probably don't I might not want to work that hard because I don't have to so in Ohio the League of Women Voters partnered with the Blitz Institute I think is out of the University of Akron and they have something called judicial votes count it almost functions how a lot of Board of Elections websites function where you can go and put your address in there and all the judicial candidates that you're voting on pop up side by side so you can do a comparison between the two still though you still have the judicial canon so everyone gets on there and says I'm fair everyone gets on there and says I'll fish it so it still can be a little bit difficult but unfortunately in our very polarized society there can be buzzwords in there that let you know where someone falls on certain issues and I will say too there are a lot of organizations that do endorsements and so if there is an organization that you know you visit their website quite frequently that makes endorsements I know a lot of organizations are starting to endorse in judicial races a lot more so that might give you a little bit of a sense at least where to go or to find out more information about a particular person but it is difficult because we are bound by our judicial canons and that's how you want your judges you want them to be fair and impartial but I would encourage all judges if they are up to have a website in a way for people to contact them and all I can do is just try to lead by example but it is difficult I would also say again because like I said so many times people don't care about judges until they are in front of one but here is the thing it takes a lot of effort to find that information I get it but when you think about I am picking a person that if I got divorced would make the decision about how my property would be divided if you think about I am making a decision about who would decide if I am a victim of a crime how much restitution I would get I would make the decision about my neighbor dispute the person who is making the decision because I feel my doctor did something wrong the people who are making the decision about whether it is constitutional to carry a gun in a certain place or in a certain way so when you think about it on a decision level I think it is worth the work to figure out who is going to be up there and who is going to be up there it is very helpful because you have all the candidates ahead of time and you can do your own research with the ballot but that is for any candidate not necessarily judicial but if you do have any questions it is harder when you get to the ballot box and you are like who is this person I have never heard of them I have never heard anything about them I will just vote for them it is a lot easier if you have your absentee ballot and you can Google everybody before you vote because I bet that you have probably heard some kind of scary reasons people voted for you I remember someone telling me your yard sign was in my neighbor's yard and they always keep their grass cut so I voted for you my second grade teacher's name was Laurel and I really liked her so I voted for you I would say for us because in Ohio I am not sure if you have straight ticket voting in Ohio but we have it in Michigan and so for me obviously we are in the nonpartisan category but you can vote straight ticket so you are voting for all of the people in a particular political party you just circle one you just circle one and it just votes for everybody in the partisan section under that party but a lot of people didn't realize and especially because I had come from a political world that you have to vote separately in the nonpartisan section and you actually have to bubble in the names in the nonpartisan section and so people would come to me and say I voted straight ticket I got you and you are like no you don't look actually you left me hanging you left me hanging so that was one of the biggest things we need more education and it's a little bit different in Ohio now we used to have straight nonpartisan judicial elections but now Ohio Supreme Court and the Court of Appeals only have party affiliation on the ballot trial courts do not interesting and it's interesting too because the way the districts are set up Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati those districts those one counties and so you had a lot of judges that had no idea what was going to happen with their election because of how their district fell between Republicans and Democrats so they didn't know what was going to happen especially the first time we had the party affiliation on the ballots so we have party affiliation and we also you can't serve as a judge after 70 yes so we do have the age restriction after 70 and at the Supreme Court here it's weird we don't have party affiliations but you have to be nominated by a political party unless you're an incumbent I know so this is why if I'm an incumbent I'm like so that's why there's more information about the Supreme Court because you're nominated by a political party so there's a different system but that doesn't apply for our Court of Appeals or lower courts but you're nonpartisan and there's no party affiliation on your ballot okay that's much more complicated do anybody know that? so that's how it works I'm Shane I'm a freshman and I'm a reporter with the Michigan Daily so we've heard Supreme Court Justice John Roberts say that judges are like umpires they just call balls and strikes so what are your thoughts on his view and how it relates to important sweeping cases they're coming up into the state court specifically relating to reproductive rights and election laws I think he was right that's how our government is set up and that's part of the transition into getting on the bench is because you've gone from player to referee you've gone from advocate to judge at the end of the day we do not make laws we interpret them and so we have to stay in our lane essentially I think that they're on Justice Bolden's level it's a little bit different because where I served that trial court you're the judge who's taking in the facts and dealing with the jury and things like that so on that first level though a lot of the facts are set so then you move to the second area Court of Appeals where I am now that court is a court of error what we're doing is just to make sure that our colleagues on the first level did mess something up now where things can get changed is on the Supreme Court and so even then though you're still not make you might be interpreting what a word means but you're not the one putting the word in there and that makes all the difference and I will say to yes we are umpires but and I know that everyone has watched a game and a referee has made a call and everybody stands like what I can't believe that that's not how I saw things right and so yes we are umpires and we call balls and strikes that doesn't mean that someone else won't see it differently and that's why you have decisions that are not uniform on my level or on the United States Supreme Court level it's really like we see it and that might be different from each other and it's why we see in groups on the appellate level I think another thing that's so important to remember is that judges don't fix things judges resolve disputes and there's a difference because in the murder criminal case you can't bring somebody back in a medical malpractice case or a car accident case you can't fix it all you can do is resolve the dispute and you have to keep that difference in mind because it helps you stay in your judicial branch of government lane hello thank you guys so much for this presentation my name is Audrey Thetford I'm a senior at the Ross School of Business and I'm also a member of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority Incorporated but first of all I just want to say it's been so inspiring to see both of you I know you said you can't be what you can't see and I never thought I would see this in my lifetime so it honestly makes me really emotional and I just want to thank you guys for being here and doing what you do and I wanted to talk about how you guys talked about your personal philosophies and how sometimes people interpret what you do as radical and I know here at the University of Michigan we're around a lot of smart college students with very different perspectives that it can kind of make you really rethink your own and what is right and on top of imposter syndrome it can just be kind of hard to have confidence in your own philosophy so I'm curious how you guys have gotten confidence in being and pushing your own philosophies in your positions and if you have any advice for us on how to do that in our personal life and like when we become leaders further on you know first of all I will point out to you that you are seeing 49 year old moral you're not seeing 19 year old moral you know what I'm saying so you can't don't compare yourself to us first of all because all of the experiences that we've talked about tonight is what made us who we are you know and getting through certain experiences you know when I was appointed judge three days of negative press right but I got through it and you know having that experience of I didn't know if somebody was coming at me with racism, ageism, sexism I mean you know any of them you know or any combination and like that's when I discovered you put your head down and do the work and that's because otherwise you're just going to spend a whole lot of time trying to convince people that you could do this job right but I had that experience and now I'm here telling you you might have that experience and you might say yeah that lady named Laurel said that she went through this too but she sat there and told me about it so it's possible to get through it I have also again being 49 year old Laurel I see how different experiences things are changing I was the first person to in my court to have a baby while serving and it was difficult but I saw already the next woman who got pregnant while she was serving had a less difficult time than I did so I've lived 49 years and so I have the opportunity to look back and see you know how some of those sticky situations worked out for the best I would say one of the greatest ways that I have learned about myself and overcome imposter syndrome is watching who I am around sometimes you've been watching the TV I watch and the music I listen to but I can say honestly Dean Watkins Hayes went over at Spelman and so having a group of friends through all these years through her getting her PhD me getting being in law school another friend going to medical school our fourth friend went to business school we all pushed each other in the midnight hour we're there to say you are so for me that has really been helpful as well as not accepting shade from trees that don't bear fruit I'm taking that one I think I read that on Facebook one time I'll attribute that to you but it's so true because if you think about it whether it's external or internal a lot of times the voice that's telling you no you can't or whatever is a tree that doesn't bear fruit you know what I mean the best part of me is very positive the best part of me encourages myself the best part of me also knows what I'm not good at I think that that has helped me and I would also again emphasize to you just look at us and just be like girl goals or whatever that hashtag is lately because again we probably had the same fears and doubts or whatever when we were your age too I would give a couple nuggets but no I don't not at this point I can't say that I never did I did at one point but at this point I do not because I know how hard I worked I know what it took to get here and so one thing I have always told myself even when I doubted myself was you might have a different skill set than me but no one's going to work harder than me nobody that in myself and that doesn't mean I win every single time but once I'm done I will say no one worked harder than me and that's just my self motivation but just as bold and think about it you lost so well that you got the appointment you know yeah right and and we I think we can all agree if I did not do well I would not have exactly but I will also say critics rarely make the history books too when someone tells you you can't do something they're looking from their lens of inability not yours because only you know what you're capable of doing because you have something inside of you telling you that you should be doing x y and z and you've gotten to the place that you've gotten to because of you your work ethic your family support system all of these things and so someone that would not dare do what you have done or trying to do telling you what you can't do cannot infiltrate you to the point where you doubt yourself you just it just it just can't and that's kind of the point that I got to when I'm when I'm running for Michigan Supreme Court and someone's telling me that I'm unqualified I'm doing something that you wouldn't dare to do that many people who may be qualified are not daring to do so I can't accept that criticism because I'm the one that's out here trying the third the third thing is you I forgot I got one though while you think of it I'll tell you and I'll give credit to my friend Elizabeth Blount McCormick who when she was asked about imposter syndrome you know what she says to herself you know because imposter syndrome you're saying why me right she says why not why not me and when you when you turn your mindset like that you know even asking the question you know it boldens you I don't remember what I was going to say but that was a good and it was going to be good too and Elizabeth is your sore too we love the pink and green but yeah no and you also have to determine whether the critique is coming from a place of love or coming from a place of trying to stunt your growth that is really hard to discern but it will always be revealed and so when certain people tell me certain things and it's a critique and you know saying Kyra you really need to step it up here you need to do better I know they're saying get out of love after I won my second election and my primary I went with 90% of the vote you know my mom said we need to find those 10% oh we have to find those 10% I said mom I don't think we can do that mom let's go to SmackDown but I knew it was coming from a place of love that it wasn't that you weren't that she wasn't saying I wasn't good enough obviously but you could have done better but in a place of love and then there are people that just told me I shouldn't run for state representative because I was too young start at school board you're not qualified to run for state representative you've never served in public office you know you don't have the credentials you know whatever whatever and see that is a baby boomer way you know what I mean to wait in line wait your turn oh my goodness if I had a dollar wait your turn but I had to realize that those people that said that to me didn't know me so you couldn't tell me if I was qualified or not you don't know me you don't know what I'm capable of and I don't have to wait my turn so unfortunately we got the signal don't wait your turn I'm going to leave it at that because I want to end it on that I appreciate that line and I so so so appreciate you coming here and had such a lovely time talking with you thank you so much