 So good morning, everyone. Good to have you all. We've almost reached to the end of our sessions. We just have a couple more classes. I'm hoping to complete the chapters on parenting today. And maybe if we are able to do so, then we would finish off with next week. We'll see how it progresses. It really depends on how much we're able to cover today. Okay. So you're welcome to the eventing students as well. So the last week we had started looking at parenting. We started on with one of the chapters there where we were focusing mainly on foundations for parenting. And the last time we began with the parenting primer, we were talking about how in parenting, how do we fulfill the ministry of being a parent because we did see that parenting is a divine call. It's a ministry that's ordained by God. We looked at certain aspects of how as a parent, you represent the Heavenly Father and certain characteristics of what a father's love and direction and unconditional love needs to be. And we closed with understanding of how we need to engage differently with our children, depending on the kind of life stage that they are in. The mode of engagement that we need to have with our children is specifically designed to the life stage that they are in. So whether they're infants or toddlers or adolescents, the way we engage with them needs to be different. So that's where we ended last time. And we will move into the next portion of it, which is discipline. How do we discipline children without destroying them? So if you are following with me, I'm on page 152 in the soft copy and also in the hard copy, it's 152. So we'll try and complete this and see if we can finish it off with the next start going on. What are some of the ways that we can nurture children? So when we're looking at discipline, I think it's important to understand the meaning of the word discipline. So what do you think the word discipline means? What is the meaning of the word discipline? Any thoughts? You could put that down on the chat also, that would be fine. What do you sense is the meaning of discipline? Yes, some of the parents in this room can answer. What do you mean by discipline? To be organized and obedient. And instead, it is to be organized and to be obedient. Okay. Okay. So the word discipline, I think I have some options of set an order to train up yourself. Okay, so discipline is basically to train and to teach and to bring about to develop or bring in order. So all those answers are excellent. So, and that is one of the objectives that we have as parents to be able to train up the children in the way that they should go and the certain verses that's their Ephesians 4 6, as it is written in the Good News Bible, it's as parents do not treat your children in such a ways to make them angry, instead, raise them with Christian discipline and instruction. So it is important for us to train up in Proverbs also, you say train up a child in the way they should go and when they're old, they will not depart from it. Okay. So there is a need for discipline when you're training children. And the objective of that discipline is to bring them up to develop them to a place of standing and not a discipline. Discipline actually is very different from the word punishment. Discipline is not to inflict punishment or cause pain. And that's often we get confused with that understanding. When there is too much of a strict discipline that comes, it definitely can cause a lot of crushing. And that's what scripture also says, you know, don't treat them in a way to make them angry, but raise them with instruction and with discipline. So discipline is not to crush them, to crush their spirits or damage them, but to really train and to develop them. And that can be done positively. So as a parent, there are different methods by which we discipline. And it should be in accordance to the development stage of the child. And it should be relevant to how you can teach and impart that discipline to the child. So we look at a couple of pointers that are there. So what are some of the ways that we discipline? So first and foremost, as an overarching principle, we need to remember that we keep discipline as positive as possible. Now, there are times that there are certain wrong or unhealthy ways of bringing about discipline, which could be through violence, through excessive beating or spanking, loud screams or shouting, calling names, verbally insulting the child, bringing about inflicting guilt or negatively saying things to them, hoping that they would correct themselves. Like, for example, you will never grow up to be anything. If you don't study, you will be a wager on the string, right? These are all unhealthy ways of administering discipline. So when you use these methods, there is nothing that comes out of it that actually brings about a self-corrective change, self-corrective method to change. So, and very often, parents do think that these kinds of discipline is what really brings children up. But we learn to discipline them in a way that is positive and will help to correct themselves. So some of this, the method that a parent uses to discipline their children definitely affects a child and their behavior. So what are some forms of positive disciplines that you can see? So some of them are, you know, talking to them and helping them critically think about right and wrong, like even when there are, maybe they want to make a choice, and you would like them to think about what are right consequences, what are wrong consequences. Discipline could mean not giving them certain privileges. For example, the child knows that they need to do maybe some work or some homework, something that's there. So if that doesn't get done, you take away certain privileges that they that it followed up with. So in that way, they understand that there are certain important things that they need to do. Also enforcing what we call as timeouts. Timeouts is if you do see a certain behavior or a certain characteristics that is that is unacceptable, you know, asking them to go to the go to a place and think about it, reflect about it and then come back or enforcing some restrictions or not giving not giving them giving them things only when there are certain conditions that are that are met. So discipline always is meant to self correct. It is meant to be, as it said in the book, it's meant to be educational. It's a it's a time where you need to learn and learn and reflect on how you can change the behavior through a more positive and loving manner. So discipline always is best when it's kept positive. Now I know most of us probably sitting here have gone through negative discipline, you know, through maybe through, through bell had had meetings with belt or with with a stick called things like that, right? However, when you know, when we when we look at the larger way of discipline, discipline always needs to be in a way that that does not break the spirit of the person. The second important thing that we need to establish when we are thinking about discipline is to have a good relationship with the children. And it is only based on a relationship that rules apply. Okay, so when a child relates with the parent well, then the influence of the parent towards certain rules or certain, certain boundaries makes a lot more of meaning. So when when you as a parent are influencing them, paying attention to them, engaging with them about what interests them, spending time with them, taking the time to listen, you know, willing to do things with them to understand them. It's only then that they will be willing to obey rules. So obedience should come from a place where they're willing and they are desirous to please the parent who they love, rather than, rather than because of the fear of something will go wrong, right? It's more, it's better to obey because of your love for your parent, rather than out of fear. So I think this is very similar to the way that we relate to God, that we obey God wholeheartedly because we love him, not and it shouldn't be because we're saying, okay, if I don't do this, then I'll go to hell that, you know, these are the consequences. But then it becomes a very conditional kind of an obedience. But obedience comes out of a desire to please the person they love or the one that they look up to. So it is important to build that relationship first and out of that relationship comes the rules, okay? Next is that there are, it's important that there are boundaries that are set by the parents and it is some boundaries need to be consistent, it needs to be clear. There can be two kinds of boundaries. One is the changing boundaries and one are the unchanging boundaries. There are certain boundaries that, that the unchanging boundaries are the ones that focus of character, right? Like at no point of time, you know, you cannot cheat, you don't lie, you don't steal, you don't, you know, do things that behind the back of the parent. So these kind of boundaries really builds values, builds characters, okay? And they do not change, they continue to be throughout. But there are those that are changing, there are the boundaries that change depending on the circumstance or the condition. Like for example, for a young child, you may not, when they're little, you wouldn't, there is a boundary that they don't go out with anyone they don't know, that if there is someone who calls them, they don't go out. But when they are much older, when they're 19, 18, they may be friends who come, you know, you permit them to go out. So that, that changes or the time that they come back. For, for younger children, there is probably a time that they can play, but then for the older ones, you give them a freedom of, you know, spending time outside with probably friends or in someone's house. And so those boundaries kind of change. So as children grow up, you know, they, it's, it's important to form these boundaries and important to maintain and maintain and express what these boundaries are like. So as children grow up, it's important to be reasonable in the way that you institute a certain boundary, understanding why they may need that space, they may need that freedom or they may need something that may be a certain way to make a decision that they may need you to relinquish to them. So be reasonable in the way that you deal with some of these boundaries with them. So that's, that's the third one. To, to have those boundaries, both it can be changing boundaries, I can be unchanging boundaries. The fourth one is to increase responsibility with autonomy. Now, what does this mean? So when, when, when children grow older, when they develop greater, when they become more mature, when they become better in handling things, you give them the freedom to make decisions on their own, right? They give them, it's called autonomy to be the ability to make those decisions. So when they mature, you're also giving them more freedom. Through that freedom, you're helping them take more responsibilities, take more decisions. And with those decisions, further responsibility also comes. So which means as a parent, you are slowly backing out from being so involved. Your involvement actually changes, you know, from, from right from the time they're young to their older, maybe when they're really young, it's more instruction based. That is, you tell them what they need to do. After that, it becomes more participatory, right? So which says, you know, this is the way that I do it. Why don't you follow me? And lastly, it becomes influential and saying, I think this is good. What do you think? So this, even the way that we give this responsibility changes over time. So initially, it's more instructional, then it becomes more participatory, and then it becomes more influential. So there may be certain areas where they need to be freedom. But there may be certain areas where need to be certain strict boundaries. Like for example, for maybe the use of the internet, or a use of, you know, where they are going out, how they spend time with friends, you know, getting to know where they are when they are out with friends. So explaining those boundaries is very important. So they need to know what is expected of them. Okay, what, and these can happen only through conversations or even their use of the internet. What is it that they can watch? What is it that they can see? What are things that they can avoid? There is where you set certain boundaries. The more that you converse with them, the more that you're able to build some of these boundaries up with them. Also, it's up to the parents to do those acts of monitoring, to be able to monitor what they are doing, asking questions regularly on what is going on, you know, try to connect with them in some way. So that's the way that you would correct them. Once you connect, you correct, and you guide them in any place that they would go wrong. So as they grow up, as they mature, it is important to give them certain responsibilities rather than the need to hold back everything for the parent to have complete control. Okay, any questions up until now? Any questions? Okay. So another important part of discipline is to know that, and I think this is foundational to discipline is for both the parents, both the husband and the wife to be in agreement in the way that they parent. So every parent comes with a certain style, having been parented themselves by parents of a certain style. So then they bring their own understanding. The husband brings their own understanding of how your parent, the wife brings her own understanding. And so what can happen is there can be a conflict when each parent attempts to parent. And so what happens when there is that conflict, it is very, it can be confusing for the child in question. The child could probably, you know, they would in their minds have this feeling of, okay, who's a good parent and who's a bad parent. And they would probably, whenever they need something, they know who to approach. Right. So then they kind of work that out. So it is important for parents to come together and bring up children as a team. So both the husband and the wife is not only should be involved, but they need to be in agreement. Now in your book, there are certain, I'm not going to go into a detail of this, but you could take time to just read that up. I just would like to bring about certain parenting styles that are commonly seen. And what is the most effective parenting style that one could use. Now it is true that not all the time always parents may use one kind of style, but then they tend to border or tend to largely use one style over the other. Okay. So the first, the first style is what we call as the authoritarian style or it's called the strict parenting style, where there's a lot of control, but there's a lot of adherence to rules. There should be rules that are followed. There is a lot more of control and rules than there is warmth and love. Okay. So there's a lot of demands made, a lot of structure, order that is there, but very little show of affection, show of love, show of acceptance that may be minimal. And that's what we call an authoritarian father or authoritarian parent. And such parents, the outcome of these children could be the children either become rebellious or they could become or they could become on the other spectrum, they could be very weak emotionally, very dependent on someone. They lack the confidence to do something or they could be extremely rebellious and not like any form of authority. So children born from these, I mean, raised as a result of authoritarian parenting can have outcomes like this. Now, this is a generalization. Okay. It's not that every child will become like that, but it's a generalization. The second one that we call is the permissive parenting. The permissive parenting is what we call as the lenient parenting, where there is a lot of show of love and affection and involvement, but there is very, very little control or limits or boundaries, very, very few rules. So the child tends to be very exploratory. In some ways, a good thing because they may be, they may learn to learn many, many things. However, it also can have a flip side that, that they become extremely demanding themselves, that everything should be given to them. They don't have a boundary of what is right or what is wrong and they could expect, they could accept everything that comes their way without really paying attention or thinking about what is right or wrong because they were never groomed like that. Everything was permitted. Permissive means permittable and everything was permitted. You want to stay out at 10 o'clock in the night, you can stay out. You don't want to go to sleep in the night, you don't have to sleep. You want to play on the phone the whole night, you can go ahead and do it. Nothing was permitted because there are no rules. It's all coming from an act of love. I love my child so much. So I just want to assure that they're always happy doing things. So, but it can have its flip side. The third one is what we call as an authoritative parenting, which is what we, in other words, it's called a balanced parenting. So here, there is a firmness about rules. There is a firmness about limits, but equally, there is a very strong relationship with the child. There's a lot of involvement of the child. They're loving, they're accepting. Nevertheless, there are certain rules that are also to be maintained. So generally, the outcome of these children, they're more balanced. The children who understand right and wrong, they understand the need to comply and be willing to be obedient. They also have that sense of confidence. They also know or are willing to accept no for an answer. So generally, when in research, it shows that this authoritative parenting is actually one of the best styles. Then the fourth one is what we call as a neglecting or an uninvolved parenting where there is absolutely no rules, no love, nothing. It's a very disengaged relationship. There is no involvement at all. So the general outcome here could be, it could go two ways. Either the child will become very strong and resilient and independent and learn things on their own or either they end up being very endless and without any form of direction. Now we may use these styles differently. Like I said, maybe even an authoritative parent when crossing the road may ask the child to hold the mother's hand because of safety issues. Or maybe when they're sick, they may allow a little bit more leeway on things. So it really remains a shift from one thing to another. But on a general basis to be authoritative is one of the ways that really builds the outcome of the child. So those firm boundaries are set. They're very clear about what are those expectations. There is a lot of connection with the children. There is love. There is acceptance. And at the same time, there are some of those balance of rules that are there so that they are able to understand both parts of it. The sixth one that we will look at is not having partiality. And we can look at an example in the Bible of Isaac and Rebecca who had Esau and Jacob. Now Esau was loved by Isaac and Rebecca was loved by Jacob. And we do see because of that kind of a preferential treatment what happened. There was enmity that brewed between the two brothers. Rebecca was part and parcel of Jacob, helped Jacob to come to a plan. And so there was a lot of animosity that happened. Now we also see that the same thing happened even with Jacob. Jacob had 12 sons and he loved Joseph more than the rest so much so that they gave him a court. Jacob gave him a court and how his and all his brothers were filled with anger and jealousy so much so that they even plotted to kill him. So as parents, we understand that it is wrong and we should never be partial towards the children. Yes, there may be certain differences in the way that the children are but overall it is important that we treat them equally and we should be treated fair. We should be treated like one from both the parents. No partiality either to a girl or to a boy for whatever reasons because that really breaks the spirit and can impact discipline in a very, very difficult way. One important way of disciplining is and I think something that many times as parents we avoid doing is we don't look for the right things. We don't look for the good. We always have an eye for wrong. So but if we need to discipline well, we need to look for good things. We need to look for things that they have done well to affirm what they have done to be able to say simple things like you've done a great job or I really am so proud of what you've done. So to highlight the positive, highlight the right things and then to discuss that which may need correction. So it is important to affirm the right things and reinforcing some of that. When you affirm their achievement or their good behavior by something, it really helps to boost them to build them up. Other important factors when you're considering discipline is to ensure that you handle things at the first time that you seek rather than wait for a problem to brew and to become worse and then handle it. It is important to handle it then and there to deal with it then and there. And we have the example of how David dealt with Absalom and I'm sure you're familiar with that story. You'll find that in 2 Samuel 30. Yeah. And we see that Absalom had his sister Tamar and Tamar was sexually violated by her half-brother Abnau. So even though David knew about this and he was angry, he really didn't do anything at the first instance. He didn't, the Bible doesn't record him having done anything. So what does Absalom do? He takes on charge and he kills his half-brother Amnon and Absalom runs away and then David brings back Absalom to Jerusalem. But for two years, we see later on I think in chapter 14 that he still doesn't meet with him. He still doesn't go out and have a conversation or any of that. So what happens is Absalom later, he holds a rebellion against David. And so we could probably assume that a factor that why Absalom rebelled against his father was probably because of the fact that David didn't correct or David actually just was quite inactive in the way that he dealt with that whole thing. So even though there was, there was a wrong, David knew that there was a wrong for what he did, for what Absalom did, he did not address it. And how do we, what do we understand through that? That whenever children do something or are in the wrong, it is important to address it then and there as soon as possible and not ignore the behavior hoping that it will go away. But taking time to address it and to deal with it and being direct, being loving, yet being firm about what needs to be dealt with. Any questions or any thoughts here? I'd like to hear one voice at least. I haven't heard even a voice for the last 30 minutes. So any thoughts, any questions, any reiterations? Nobody? Rin, Jack in, all the common people who speak. Yeah, so I have a doubt about this, then that you were sharing. So it's like, see, many times, like as you also said, I have received negative discipline. So when I read my daughter, often a fear comes, is it a negative discipline or am I being authoritative or like that fear is somewhere playing a role, I feel it's, I mean, how to differentiate like, you know, I know that I have to train her discipline her at times and then, you know, guide her and now she's a teenager. But even when I tell something, you know, sometimes I feel like, oh, have I been so strict or, you know, should I be relaxed or somewhere the ones that I received, it comes back to me. Sometimes I feel God, after that I'll pray anyway, but still when I directly deal some things with her know, and then her eyes will like swell up with water and then I won't get that, but then I'll feel that later. But I mean, I'm just asking, is there a balance as to like, you know, this generation is really different from Yeah, so this does not mean that we don't spank or use the rod at all, but it doesn't mean that nevertheless, I think the difference between the two is when you are, let's say using a rod or when you're spanking or you're beating them, a couple of things I think we just need to keep in mind. One is what is the objective behind it? Often people's parents spank in order to get out their frustration in order to get out their anger and that's when they spank. Rather than using it as a corrective measure. Okay, so that's one. So which means when you're using it as a corrective measure, you yourself as a parent or patient, you are calm and you have engaged with the child about what is wrong or whatever is happening. And then because of the agreement that maybe you've had an agreement of, you know, I believe this needs a spanking. And so then you spank, right? Rather than at a fit of a rage, you see something happening, you spank and then you shout and you scream and then they're going. So the way the objective of why are we spanking? Is it to correct the behavior or is it to throw out our frustration? That becomes the first point. Yeah, and also a couple of other things is the second is the age. So there may not be a hard and fast rule for this, but nevertheless, you would spank a child specifically till maybe about the age of seven, eight, nine. And after that, children can reason. You have your nine and 10 year olds can reason with you. So then you should slowly begin to reduce that. So by the time they are teens, it's best that that is outside, out of your, you know, one of the tools that you use for discipline. So as little children, it's a good thing. It may be necessary. Again, what do you use? Again, there are a lot of, you know, questions, theories of this. It's best to use something other than your hand is what, you know, psychologists say, because it's with the same hand, you show affection as well as how you think. So it's like a rolled up paper or a small stick or a ruler and again, where it's usually below the buttock, right? And not on the head or on the body or a push or how many times a good one is more than enough. You don't have to keep whipping until they turn black and blue. Right? So some of these, and again, what happens post the spanking, calling them aside and, you know, addressing it back again that, you know, whatever that you discussed something and something was disobeyed. And then you come back and show express love back to them, you know, once that entire episode is over the corrections over express love and rebuild back the connection. So there are some of these important things when you think about spanking or beating. I hope that answers it, Jeffrey. Yes, Pastor. So the other thing I was concerned about is even the words that they use, sometimes niches are really sensitive and would be the boundaries that we had set and agreed in common, they would have crossed little bit and then they'll come and tell, you know, it's not fully, I did not cross fully, they'll come and reason it out with us more possibly. It frustrates us because we've actually given them boundaries based on what they told and they would have sat and discussed it and then they cross those boundaries, how to deal with, how to deal with our words while sleep. So I think there are two things when a child, let's say, like you said, you've given them some boundaries, maybe the boundaries don't go out after six o'clock, just giving you a very arbitrary scenario, don't go out at six o'clock. And they said, okay, I was out, I came back, I came back, but they came back only by seven, let's say. Now there are two things, more than the breaking of the rule, it is the heart that matters, which means what did they do? Yes, they stayed out after six o'clock, but what is it that they've actually done is that they have become, they were disobedient to you. So to be able to tease that out, that the fact that it was not about 10 minutes or half an hour or two minutes or one hour, it is the fact that the heart of the matter, the fact that they came to a place of disobedience, that they felt that they could do something to disobey you and then come back and negotiate that or reason that out. So it's important to come to the heart of it, not what they did, but why they did it. Why is they were disobedient? What is, yes, they were out until six or seven o'clock. The why is, I'm correcting you because you were disobedient or I'm correcting you, not because you stole that one piece of chocolate from there, but your heart expressed some sense of biscuit or your heart expressed greed when you were stealing from something. So that's what we would want to really focus on and I'd like you all to, if some of you are interested, there is a book by Ted Tripp, it's known as Shepherding a Child's Heart, where he talks about how you, whatever we do, it is to correct the, not the behavior, but the heart of the child to reason out with the child about the heart of the matter rather than the behavior because often we try to minimize the behavior. Next time you must come back at six o'clock rather than, you know, I'm disappointed because you were disobedient, that you didn't take instruction and you were willfully disobedient. So that becomes a principle. So that's important as you are engaging the children in correcting them. Jaqe, I hope that was helpful. That was really helpful. That's exactly where I was struggling. Thank you. Okay. I think Shivkumar has written how to make children understand their mistakes and what are the ways, especially little ones. And I think, yeah, so Shivkum, I think I mentioned that one is, yes, again, it doesn't mean you spank at the first resort. There are times of correction, you know, maybe especially for smaller ones, maybe the little ones, like one and two years old, it's more about, you know, probably distracting them and being very firm about what behavior is not acceptable, right? As they grow a little more bigger, then we can bring about two, three, we bring about some form of light, rod punishment, or again, you know, giving away, not not lack of privileges, loss of privileges or some consequences to their behavior. All of that is what you can use. I think we spoke about some of them for the little ones. Okay. I think when you asked a question, it is getting harder for parents to discipline their kids. Some parents try, but some don't. Something that their children will realize someday their mistake and some are afraid to hurt their children. So they are afraid to correct. How should a parent build a healthy and close relationship with their children from the time when they're small? Yeah, I think I address part of this. They have to constantly think of new methods to discipline their child and it will get harder as everything is changing. Okay. So the first and foremost, like we said is there has to be a relationship before anything else, you know, without a relationship, there isn't going to be any form of discipline. So a relationship building is spending time getting to know your child, talking with them, build with them, the interest that they may have, just grooming all of that is very, very important for a child. Okay. Because it's only out of that can you bring about discipline. And now, especially in the West, if ever you beat your child, a child can actually lodge a complaint with the police and say, you know, my parents are physically abusing me. So yes, so that, there again, I mean, thankfully, it's not here where we are right now. But to, when it comes from a place of a relationship, then it's a lot more easier to discipline children, right? And it needs, as children grow up, it needs to be through conversation, through structured planning of certain boundaries, certain rules. Very often parents don't take the time to establish those boundaries, they don't tell them what the boundaries are. And so when they are violated, is only when the children get to know that they probably done something wrong. So taking time and intentionally working on some of this is, is what, what really matters. Okay. So yes, parenting is an intentional thing. And you have to definitely try, like, yeah, you're right. And you have to constantly think of new ways to discipline, to, to instruct children, right? Because there is so much of outside input that's there, influence that's there, that to get their attention, to get their understanding can be hard. And that's why right from a young age, if you're able to hold certain principles of what's important, again, the, the fact that social media, the phone, any kind of device takes on their lives at such a young age becomes even more harder. So parents needing to know at what age and what, what way do they expose children to these extra devices or these extra things is very important. Share the name of the book you had mentioned and the author's name. Okay. So the author's name is Ted Tripp, and the name of the book is Sheparding the Child's Alright. Okay. We'll quickly move in. As we are, as we continue on, some of the other things that we need to focus on is especially when they're teenagers to not really, you know, argue for the sake of arguing, not getting into debates for the sake of making a statement, there may be some things that you can just best leave or some things that you can pause, hold it and then at a later point of time when, when both of you all are willing to talk and listen to discuss that. So it is important to not engage in arguments that you may see are sometimes quite pointless. Okay. Again, it's important to, as a parent to be able to give yourself some time, okay, to get some sanity. It is good to sometimes move away to think of how best you can handle a certain situation, pray about it, ask the Lord for wisdom and come back to address the situation. Okay. Maybe it's also good to take time off, like something has happened tonight and you know, to address it at the middle of the night may not be a good time. So you're saying, okay, there is something we need to address, we'll address this when we both come, we'll probably go out somewhere and sit and talk about it. So give yourself that ability to do that. And lastly, it's always to bring closure of discipline with love and with a show of love, right? It's important, like in case you have misjudged a certain situation and you use too harsh discipline to the child, it may be important to recognize your mistake, apologize and show them how you would like to do it differently the next time. Or if it's something that you have affirmed your love to them by actually sending about some form of discipline at a later point of time, bringing them back, showing them how much you love them, how much you care for them and why that discipline was necessary will also bring them to a place of accepting where they are at. So it's good to work through some of these very, very intentionally. All right, we are almost at 10.50. Let's have a 10 minute break and we'll come back, we'll complete this chapter and quickly get into the next one also. See you soon.