 All right, let's do it Yeah, the title was three is the magic number One of the goals of the usability team is to provide a Drupal 8. It has a bit more specific Initial experience something a bit more coherent that is a bit more clear about what you can actually do with it And I have three general ideas how about how we can achieve that First of all volcano sucked. I had a conversation basically around this topic for San Francisco Iceland got in the way I want to do these slides as an introduction once more. I didn't over Skype. I think that was the first car conversation San Francisco even No, yeah So there was a strict format for how to define your proposal for slides the context was Drupal can do everything There's always a module for that We are Good at promising everything, right? Core does nothing almost nothing really well The default install profile sucks It provides the framework first Features are generic or incomplete and core can't target a specific use case and this is all mostly by design around that the product versus framework debate was well on the way actually and This was just my attempt of trying to Show you that I kind of understood what the underlying concepts were that there was a core with a framework and the concept space that lets you collect and Assemble all the things together into your specific awesome application There was some good the blog post around that time I Like that. So my vision then was Yes, we need to provide core and provide core with a couple of ideas of Stop applications Last year we talked about this as getting you to the 60% use case so that you'd be Invested you'd have something up and running that would get you invested and would Compel you to look further and dive into contract and start to find the right module that would get you further So maybe the installer would have some kind of pull down and have some thematic themed sites for you available with specific configuration and maybe a different node type etc or The shortcut to no, thanks. I just need the framework and I'm gonna do my own thing See hey revive by Cupid's kiss by Canova. It's in the Louvre in Paris Last year Dries's Keynote mentioned that Drupal using Drupal application should be a delightful experience if you've ever seen it it's It's it's marble, but it's so tender so Delicate it's pretty quite amazing to see Another heuristic that Dries provided was for Drupal 8 and UX is to provide newbies primarily and Experts secondary a good initial experience That's what we're talking about right on ramp providing on ramp Well, we can check How Drupal how Drupal performs doing that now and we did we saw that earlier today Is that delightful? Nope, this is the Laocom group. This is from 100 BC around It's a Trojan priest Laocom and his sons being strangled by sea serpents And if you look if you see this statue, he's really in pain. I promise I would sneak in some art history Earlier today. We saw a good summary of the the last Google usability test That was performed And just yesterday a good high-level overview of the main problems that are in this install are in this experience are summarized as Many problems on the conceptual level problems on flow getting people from one step to the next step terminology that's the most pervasive one we've always seen throughout all usability tests and just clunky interfaces So hmm to me this balls down that the blank canvas that we provide right now is not helpful to people anymore it used to be because Prior to Drupal 6 and before it was mostly developers tool for developers So what you would get would map to what the people that were going to use it think about stuff That's not really the case anymore. So how are we going to achieve this? Provide a more targeted more specific Initial experience one of the things we tried to do in defining the usability gate was to define for ourselves some driving principles I mean we have usability tests that give us real data on what we on what is wrong what we should be fixed And then there's other usk other problems or issues or things we want to improve that don't really have a perfect answer we're always making trade-offs and Then you can rely on design principles and choose a few That I can support you and help inform the design decisions. We need to be making So the one the first one would be easy first and powerful on the do it right now everything is There all at once Maybe we should narrow that down and let people discover the more advanced stuff later Connected dots is another one In the sense of that we should provide more specific workflows for people getting you from the one step to the next step But then For whom are we connecting which dots that's still the question, but currently the UI is fragmented. It's unweighted. It has little hierarchy to it There's no real visual mechanism to denote important stuff from less important stuff So it will be hyped for people to connect the dots This helps in connecting the dots It has some parts filled in Empowers you because you know what you'll be getting and this looks achievable and I mean, this is a children's thing, but there's just quite a few concepts in here already It has a clear task Some parts are already filled in so you already get a sense of what you are where you'll be heading and I mean even that little cactus in the background. It gives you perspective what's important. What's not So connect the dots The main questions then is for whom are we connecting the dots for which use case for which role are we Providing that on-ramp We want to be as specific as possible here, but that's always a challenge with core, right? so To help start framing this I've been thinking around three high-level use cases that we can Explore and define Yeah, explore so I doodle a lot And these are small little doodles and there's a lot of condensed thinking in there in a way My three use cases were okay, just a single individual use case I Mean it's baked into you human nature to think me me me first It's as it is. We all know designers are the most egocentric of all so maybe We could do something for solo designers or visual and Provide them with a mechanism that helps them get their stuff out Maybe a portfolio The second one was us a group of people Collective it would where the designer The design use case would also target more the editorial the editor UX The us is is a Small group of people. This is snowmen, right? if you if you heard that before a small group of people a collective that want to build something and work together on something online and then there's Most of you here the developers who Are the most philanthropic or philanthropic of all and but only that to achieve world domination, right? No No limits I also don't call it anything scenario. I mean no holds barred and this is where Abstract and the flexibility comes from Let's look at each three in a little more detail So the me use case me me me and could be a portfolio thing Son still smoking He actually took on on this and Even started a project for it and The idea is here why not provide people with a starting point to get their own work out there a professional portfolio maybe for a free answer and We did some work on that actually in the Berlin design camp last year We did a brainstorm on that and there the starting point was okay. Maybe even mobile portfolio maybe silly but And really it has a quite simple Couple of quite simple requirements The main object would be for you to get to show your stuff and to allow other people to contact you Done People known usually people today that you can't do anything because directly the core I disagree So I have a personal example. I make etchings monotypes Try to get my hands dirty sometimes instead of typing on keyboards and stuff and drama drawing up wireframes This is a sub theme of seven This is 50 lines of CSS and it gives me a presentation. It's even I could show it later I mean this 50 50 lines of CSS in a sub theme for for the most part and otherwise It's just Drupal core and that 50 lines of CSS makes it responsive. I can resize and the concept will reflow Core only and there's a little footer that says contact me if you want to know more use case cover did I throw out the Yeah, I threw out one for snowman. So the second use case a group of people Collaborating on a project who wants to tell the world about it and convince others to join in The snowman use case has been the most talked about it and it hits Squarely at where Drupal comes from. I mean Drupal Drupal was that project itself It just grew out to be to the world Domination scenario But in a sense and there's a lot to learn there from the lessons from Drupal 3 talk Ken Rickett has been Doing a couple of years ago. Did you know there's a scheduler module in Drupal 3? It could Where you could set I want to this two people are published then nice So the studio where I do this do the printing is Exactly that group of people they need to present their facilities to the outside world and There's like 20 or 30 members there That Would like to communicate privately as well To help organize the next exposition the next exhibit Again the core only side it works quite well. So I Think it can be done. I mean you hit limits pretty soon and I mean like we are all here our uber uber uber experts in Drupal So I know which ones which were a little bits to apply To make it work But you can do Yeah, I need help for the for the world Domination use case this would be a developer specific a thing. I would like to repurpose the butler Working title I Gng of course. Yeah, I mean we don't have we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that we're all uber experts in all things to Rupal We want to attract smart developers who are not experienced with Rupal. So what can we give them besides just a Codebase that'll help them get up to speed. I mean Drupal 8 will have awesome new stuff for them fabulous new architecture and Really sharp generic apis but what reach out can we do for them to Help them wrap their heads around the awesome right because that's the goal I'll need help you but What stuck out for me is a SDKs that Dries mentions in his keynote Maybe something like that. I hear people when they When I overhear discussions, I hear a lot of Yeah, I just put on DSM just to follow where everything's going from maybe Maybe we can do a little tool for that. Maybe I don't know three use cases for me for us as a group and for the world and Of course, they would feed They would layer on top of each other what we do right for for the me use case would help The feature set for the for the us use case as well Maybe even the generic or the world domination scheme. Let's do it Dries proposed in his keynote that we even have a design process Some clearly marked phases before we hit the feature freeze I put in a couple issue numbers right now for the stuff. I think that we should be working on for portfolio Son has been working on and we've been working on a good big spreadsheet which goes beyond that one portfolio for visual person But has a lot of use cases for Any other type of individual individual that might want to achieve the same thing present themselves professionally? snowman has a couple private forums is one Like I mentioned in the in my use case where we would like to discuss privately about the next exhibit that we're Organizing Have a butler I write once at once The other idea had there was called tissues That would be some kind of issue tracker RSS feed like issue tracker maybe a mobile app that could pull in your issues And you could see three updates into an update. So I tried to pull. I mean aggregator can pull in the RSS feed of my issues That's where it stopped because it's not actionable. It won't show three new or two updates here or there but something like that, you know something that combines the new services that will be available and If we use that example as use your issue tracker have a hook into contributing So maybe that's where we might end up for core Choosier Drupal, that's a big vision document that son put out as well I Think it's a it's a useful framework to start Exploring still we have a still have a bit of time to explore this and We need more options and then do an analysis and Really focus on what we have to put in there to make it work And we should I think we should go for that. Thanks Couple of links that's it any questions Larry should So Well, you're still into that First of all plus one. I love this plan My question is between this kind of developer oriented butler Install profile and just the code. What do you see the difference being there? because if you want to use you know Drupal as a Development framework you type thing isn't just the code what you would want. What would be the difference between those two options? Besides just installing core and what would be the extra layer For people. Yeah, the on-run there. I don't I'm not really sure I'm thinking example code I'm thinking I mean I Think I remember that you once pointed out that some Java thing had the pet shop example. I'm sorry come again if I don't know if you mentioned it once that some kind of Java development environment provided developers with a prototype that Was a pet shop where you could buy pets. Maybe I messed up Mixed that up. Maybe it sounds similar to like the North wind database that Microsoft database products have included forever Okay, I don't know so I mean But yeah, I'm looking for ideas. I don't know what developers specifically run into and what is there What are their problems in in? Crocking Drupal, so I'm looking for ideas. Do we have ideas? I'm not sure I'd have to think about it Is your idea that? You know Drupal professionals who build sites and know what they're doing and just want to jump in and build their client site Which of those do you see them using? Right Hopefully yeah, the idea would be to have that third one specifically target to people to help developers get up to speed around Drupal concepts that maybe I Mean I'm guessing that would be less about the UI Getting around the UI and getting stuff that is still done and more about the underlying code and I know hooks Okay I'm not sure what the line is, but yeah, it sounds interesting. Yeah, I Like I like this idea a lot and I it almost seems like it would make sense to have three kind of install profiles like that but have them be one some and all or something like that and the all wouldn't necessarily be It would be different from what from what you're saying about the developer But more be like for a forum or some some kind of site that wants to involve Anyone and everyone and then the middle one the sum would be for like a group or organization Like a like a company so it could it could have something to do with what how many roles you start with as the as the base how many Content types. Yeah Yeah, yeah, I mean I I For this to subscribe to this whole framework idea and I think this is how you prove That you're being a framework. I really like this idea and I love the slides But besides that so can you tell me more about the research what you did because I'm kind of stuck with the word portfolio because that I Know this is just you know discussion phase So it would be really helpful for at least me probably some other people if you could tell what came from the research as to what What constitutes portfolios specifically in terms of the need because it could be like I Don't know it just I just want to blog and the reason this I'm asking is what we've done in Drupal gardens Is that we have this kind of different templates that we call? and we put like blog template and work template or something like that and that's probably what There is some overlap so it would be really interesting to know what came from the research There's little research here. This is me thinking up stuff But one of the other by lines for this portfolio idea was it is not a blog Because why would we want to compete with WordPress and tumblers and etc all that so I'm thinking From my ecotistical and designer point of view that this That you specific use case would also be a good showcase for the media module like where we show off How awesome it is to know embed movies slideshows and images into your content But then wouldn't that mean that we are encouraging people to not use Drupal for The idea is that we have to make the initial experience better for new users And a lot of people are just blogging and doing simple things. Yeah, and and if we are saying portfolio, so do we want to have a Only portfolio kind of websites on Drupal isn't that Yeah, I mean blogging a blog is of course a perfect example for a single person's use case. Yes I try to think around it a bit because it's pretty generic. I mean we can end up there many of the ideas quickly hit that it would have a new section or a blog or some stream of Updates or the chrono chronologically So I don't think blog is out of the question I just want just don't want to focus on that right now because I want to find ideas that are a bit more Original or a bit more specific than that Yeah Yeah, thanks for the presentation Roy is really cool I guess very similar What I'm thinking is Are we if you sort of have three pretty established paths? For someone when they are like thinking about if they want to use Drupal or not if there is a problem there where you'd be Perhaps ostracizing users who you know, I don't want a portfolio. I want my school newspaper website to be on Drupal And then I had another question I guess you can answer that first because I forgot the other one I mean just is there any thought there about you know, are we going to be sending messages to people that I mean basically What you're saying that the one way to do it is is really the established way the other ways are not as Yeah, I mean that's that will be the tough thing to balance. How specific will be being How specific we will communicate about what this can do for you? I Don't know we'll have to find out I'd like to have very specific ideas first so that we can maybe derive the generic underlying Stuff from that and that's what gets in core. I actually When I saw your demo of I would call it the speed aid thing sorry the Yeah, the onboarding up to speed yeah, the onboarding experience which was product agnostic, right? It just helped explain core concepts. I Was I was almost going to say yeah, that's maybe a better idea I think that there is a lot of useful there. Yeah, I mean sample content Just have one note in there somewhere that you can unpublish and edit and move around. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, I think I think with enough research and with surveying of new users Maybe you can bring it down to you know three really good use cases that people are gonna mostly want I mean I know when we surveyed people for for the Google thing the people that were trying the websites They really wanted to build we had like a newspaper website We had a blog and I think we did have a portfolio example So maybe getting more research on that can help you know pick these out. Yeah. Yeah, I Mean what we see now that the absolute generics that we present now doesn't really help anybody, right? So and we're going by choosing we're always leaving others behind. Yeah, and That's would be new for core to do I don't know if I mean there's all these new packaging Awesomeness that's that's released right now. I don't know if we can do a core plus where we provide people with the options that Okay, if you want to do this then Let let us fetch this and this is this extra module. Let's set it up for you. Cool. Thanks. Yep Hey, Roy So I really liked your presentation and I obviously I really agree with what you say about trying to please everyone means you end up pleasing no one and Drupal is probably I think it probably has the broadest Target audience of any product that I've seen so I like this move towards installation profiles But I've been thinking recently that the word installation profiles But we doesn't mean anything to a non-technical user or someone who's new to Drupal. Yeah, so do you think it's worth thinking about at this time? Changing the name of installation profiles to sign that's more meaningful to a non-technical user Depends on the use depends on the target audience I think the people who have to make it work are pretty much used to the install profile word because that's what they come up with and I Mean in the in that UI if there would be a select list where you can choose a different side recipes Maybe like we discussed that I think that word should not be there at that place Product could be an application could be a good a good example or maybe recipe. Yeah I don't think we should present people who are going to check out Drupal with a selection of install profiles Well, I mean like if you asked your mother what an installation profile was you probably wouldn't be able to tell you right? Yeah, yeah Okay, thanks wording is important Actually to both of those points one idea about Becky's question about like I don't want a portfolio I don't want a group site and I'm not a developer. So yeah press Is you know how you had an option there for like no just give me the code you could also an option there's like Show me some other options or something click and then that takes you to the distribution listing on Drupal.org And then point about the name installation profiles in November. I Destroyed a good chunk of my soul Trying to do this work on the distributions stuff So I have led a bike shed discussion about what we should rename installation profiles to Thinking product or app or something like that might more and more sense to people the consensus I was able to build was essentially and this isn't universal consensus, but this was the best I was able to do so somebody else wants to take it on after me. That's fine, but it's basically that Installation profile should only be the name of the actual code in the profiles directory So that thing that developers write is called an installation profile The distribution should be the name of any kind of collection of code That's like one or more installation profiles and on Drupal.org We should call it distributions everywhere And I don't like the word distribution because I think that doesn't make sense to normal people But I wasn't able to build consensus on any other term that people like better this problem is like product implies commercialism yeah app implies something way more limited than a distribution so you know I wasn't able to come up to that consensus, but I'm currently working on a on a Listing like basically a bunch of just little cosmetic tweaks basically to Drupal.org to just make distributions more front and center So like adding the option to either download core or a distribution Anywhere that we offer that button And then like making it a top-level thing that kind of stuff So if anybody wants to help me on that that'd be great because I'm pretty much ready to be I'm sick of that fucking issue And if anybody wants to help me just bang it out On Friday, that would be great. So it's good. You have such a big soul So to your point about you know Let's not I don't want to harp too much about the word installation profiles And I agree that it's not a common term shouldn't happen five years later We are discussing the same problem we have with the word modules There are certain ways in which we can find out what people normally think about How they see installation profiles and I may be able to help you with that So we could do some research with people and should not be a big Extensive project. Um, I also think this looks really cool One question just just to make sure I'm understanding it correctly So these are like different these are basically just different styles of distributions that people would download They're not things to be continued configured after you download, correct The way I understand it that if by choosing one of these options Then the installation process continues and sets up what's in that shopping list for what's in the distribution Other in the installation profile. So the installation profile contains the kind of content types you'll get Maybe that sample content, etc. Oh Yeah, I mean that I think that sounds good I think that there could be some really I mean I think the the idea of having portfolio and a few other, you know, like a newspaper or something like that very easily relatable Metaphors, I guess that people can can latch on to is really cool But I think I guess another problem that presents is like if you want a website that has the same tendencies as a newspaper The same style of structure, but just different names It's really like once you like it's hard for users to make that leap. I guess to say oh Conceptually, I want to organize like a newspaper, but I don't understand that I'm in the football team. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, right, right And so there might even be a cool application for some kind of interaction Interactive like what do you actually want to do with your thing like a little widget kind of things that like can custom build I mean something that's not complicated. That's not overwhelming at all But it's like yeah, what are you looking to do with your site something more than like a B or C it like actually asks you a few questions and based on the interaction of those and that wouldn't have to be in Core that would be on triple that or Yeah, and like and like that he can be that even could lead you to I mean that would even be a really cool way to discover distributions If it's like look, maybe you want to download a flavor of Drupal that suits your needs So you don't have to do a ton of customization Some kind of like easy to use Widget to you think yes, and I mean this this is And be presented as ideas that will all be in core and there's a lot of things we can do before you install Before you download, right? Yeah, so we should definitely to take that into account. Yeah, right. Yeah, I hate to be the one to bring up this issue But as I've been observed before Drupal core as it is now it's really hard to build anything useful with and You know with any of these things we would have to either make them very very simple Put more stuff into core as in modules just throw into core or Figure out some way to make these things technically separate from Drupal core itself and Modifiable layers we can make them actually packaged on the fly distributions or something and I don't know which of those is least hard to do but it's something that we need to be thinking about as well for all of these because You know throwing views into core is not something we're really looking at right now, nor should we but that means we have to think through a lot of what can we get done with these others and I know when Eaton was talking about a snowman originally One of the points he raised which I think is a very good one is that if you you know If you need to do custom code for X that means the framework has to improve so that custom code is just a button or Just just a button or something like that. He was working at one point on taking like the node front page and some of the other default listings things and Rip those out of the existing models and put them into a list module. That is just those exact same things But you can that one I want that one. I want it. Yeah, I think we need it so You know if we if we do this and I think we should there will be a lot of feedback to where that application versus framework line is And so I actually think we should be doing this sooner rather than later as we're busy working on the framework. Yes, I'm working on We should be mindful of what can we actually do with the code that actually is in core or what loophole can be fine for that I think this this comes this kind of Relates to how trees has been describing that we have to make or bigger and smaller smaller in the sense that More even more decoupled even more abstract etc But chuck in a couple of more features So on Larry's point maybe the way to make more options available for End users while not making core bigger is getting to make that gave them to make their decision before they download Drupal Yes, instead point them towards distributions or installation profiles. Yes, instead of putting a lot more stuff into core Yes, I think that's what was suggested right there as well sorry Yeah, Geras with the interview right the interview of what would you like to do? It could be handled before? Yeah So yeah, that that would should definitely be part of this Yeah, so kind of along that same line as what he was just saying I'm kind of envisioning Sort of what Angie was saying where you have in the Drupal installation you can click Or choose another option sort of to get a list of distributions And this is just an idea, but and I don't know how feasible it is I know in Drupal 7, you know, you can set up like auto downloads of modules for upgrading Possibly some way of Setting up the distribution system so you don't actually have to download a separate distribution You can do it right from the installation itself it would require internet access obviously and some other things like that, but yeah I mean, I like the ideas. I can't help really help make it a reality, but yes, I think that's a Big part of the vision right we would be able to do that Roy raises lots of questions. So How attached are you to three I know it's cold about three yes keeping it in theme Three or more I missed that part of the so so it is Three for now Is that what you're saying? It's not really three. It's three or more No, that does The suggestion was made that well, that's this fourth link that no just give me the code Or maybe there's it would be an extra link like show me all the other options So it yeah, no, I just wanted to verify that before okay going on It does remind me a lot. I was mentioning to Larry yesterday about a product that I designed some time ago Back in the 90s. It wasn't web. It was a desktop thing And it worked out really well basically the idea I was working at Corel at the time And the idea was to provide the power of Corel draw Look that up in your history books if you don't know that With the ease a bit closer to the mic. Oh, okay with the ease of use of a wizard That was the challenge the UI design challenge. So what What I designed basically was it started off as a wizard and It's basically It's not an install. It's a creation Process by the way Angie one possible alternative to distribution profiles thing is a site creation strategy I just just mentioning it just mentioning it But it seems to me like that's what we're talking about site creation strategies here and In the case of this product called print house. It was about Some sort of document creation strategy. It started off as a wizard. It would ask you questions like what do you want to build a newsletter Greeting card a poster and you would make very high-level decisions. It would take you to the next step You would come out of the wizard with the product But then it would take you to an interesting magical place That wizard when a wizard is basically a tunnel and you go through it and you come out the other end At the other end you have something that looked a bit more like coral draw that would be like there's your surface for drawing things There's the thing that you built. There's a set of tools But there was also what I called an open-face wizard, which was basically a state sensitive help system That would ask you questions. I think garen was saying things like what do you want to do next and It was still high-level it would say things like I want to change something. I want to print this I want to save this whatever and then you would drill down through that I want to change something. What do you want to change? I want to change the size of something Do you want to add it to something and it would literally take control of the tool set the toolbox and guide you with words to using the tool and To the point where it would say okay. I've selected the picker tool It didn't say that but this is the picker tool It would select it now pick the object you want to change you do that that states changed the help system changed according to it Now see those square, you know marks pull on those to make it bigger You know push on them to make it so whatever it said so basically took you through the whole process of going from something Which gave you a product but then could You know take you into the higher level or more sophisticated use of the tools itself And you walk away with that as a trained person I'm just saying that because it sounds similar similar kind of challenge Yeah, and the other thing I want to say is that what you describe me here in terms of connecting the dots is very much in Resonates to me with the notion of narratives, which I'm going to be talking about tomorrow So it is it is not a dot connecting kind of Experience we all go watch his talk I Think this is really an interesting idea and and it's getting me thinking on a number of things But I think from the discussion I'm getting kind of a little worried that we're kind of having wow We can have wizards and we can have do this and we could guide them to picking the that and I'm thinking Yeah, who's gonna do this? And also if we have all this guidance, you know, I'm a you know one of the things is You know, we want this to be an on ramp to the power of Drupal And one of the things that's needed about Drupal is that you know, it's it's basically unlimited And so I think a lot of it is how you know I think what we want to have is we do want to have some things that you know kind of out of the box as they're installing it They can make it do something for the people who are at the very sort of beginning But I think what we need to do is communicate that these are just teeny tiny wimpy examples And that there's a big universe out there that they can they can Explore at their own pace as they want to and kind of give some pointers to those things But not try to just not try to do everything for them But just you know, I think it's a lot about to making clear what we're doing and not trying to do much But but definitely having something or three some things or whatever it is, but I don't I'm worried about this kind of You know, yeah, this is trying to be really really perfect instead of just kind of going let's be good None of this would give you a hundred percent of what you need This is all three ideas are open-ended, right? And it's just meant as a means to help you pave your first path in the jungle Yeah, so I'm very similar to what Sharon was saying I feel like one thing really to avoid in this approach is You know, oh, I want to build that's that they do want to build the portfolio They hit portfolio and they install it and then all the magic happens while the you know The bar is going and then they're in the site and in a way they're almost even more abstracted from What it is to build a Drupal website Like all this idea of the modules of the configuration of maybe even permissions are involved and like things are getting changed behind the scenes It's almost like this question of are we trying to empower new users to be awesome site builders Like all of us can be or are we trying to give them? Sort of a to start with a scaled-down approach Hope that maybe 80% of the stuff they're gonna want to do is covered by that and then the rest of the 20% Be this sort of like scrambled to figure out what it is, you know I mean and they can go to the community and they can try and figure it out, but yeah you know Maybe the concern you're expressing is that if we take people by the hand so explicitly. Yeah, we don't get them That we don't help them learn what to do Yeah, exactly And that was the idea with this up to speed thing and just that if you give them like a bone and they can just go Run with it and sort of Later we do my slides. I really like that approach I'm just gonna do a follow-up to turn on in a sense what I'm kind of saying is, you know I like this, you know, let's have one of these things and going towards your concern But some of it is not so much what we provide that I'm thinking we need to address as well But addressing this thing of what we're telling them we're providing so I'm saying, you know, here's the you know This is a site you can build we kind of say, you know, this is like a you know a starter example This is an example, you know a simple example to get you started of you know or something like that where we're communicating to them This is the tip of the iceberg and We're communicating to them throughout the process of this tip of the iceberg that there's a whole lot more there that they can explore And so it's really kind of a thing about terminology and how we frame it as opposed to What whether we provide this or not, and I think having this some Clear examples they can go in and actually build a something is great I'm just saying let's let's make it clear to them what we're giving them and not make them think that this is Drupal I understand the concern and I'm Convinced that and the community won't let us and do that ideal world Drupal is a framework barely has an admin interface and it lets me Easily add modules and build custom stuff from scratch because I have fun doing that Yeah, I think what we're getting at it's very important, but it sounds to me like it It's more about like a web app So is it possible to have like Like an application that's sort of like a story like a game for people to be introduced to Drupal of all levels They want to do all sorts of things and download By playing the game by connecting the dots and the numbers creating their customized Profile of Drupal kind of like what is it modernizer does that I think you click and create your and and I guess it is just like Drupal Gardens also in a way does does that a much more, you know to two Forms I think I'm just glad I'm getting ideas other ideas in response and not So I'm I mean that's this is this is what I'm looking for other options to explore and At this time for me any idea goes Yeah Okay Just don't know what you all entered for And what century will build it That's all right So going back to the question which Becky asked and I think I agree to what he said because what is happening right now Is that we are putting people new users especially into this wall of text and options making it? Overwhelming and intimidating and that's why it's very difficult and and we have Sort of the same approach for Drupal Gardens with the whole you know what we are talking very similar to that and You know I've done tons of research and we made it as Simple as we can within the constraints that we live in it's still it's still you know a long way to go But the point I'm trying to make is that if we give them that this a little It's kind of a psychology thing is that you have to let someone succeed on the first task and Then you know if they struggle because we don't want them to alienate right away So right we want to win the hearts and minds of people and we have to do that by empowering them So we have to provide success in the first steps I mean will hit any everybody will run into some kind of wall somewhere, but at least Build some confidence yeah So on the subject of you know Not trapping people in the idea of Drupal is just a portfolio or just a whatever Sometime earlier in this conference someone tweeted. I don't remember who it was about Google Somewhere around here proposing Something similar to what they do with their own apps where you know if you're a new user or if they've just changed the UI Outformer to you they have messages that pop up that say you know you want to do X Oh, you can you do that over here? Hey, did you know you can do this go over here? And then you can dismiss those or turn them off but there's that kind of hints of more that is coming or more that you than you know about and You know, I think that could be a really really helpful way to You know help on board people with Drupal. Hey, did you know you can add modules to your site? Yes, and stuff like that because otherwise people don't realize that yes as well as You know, hey, you know Drupal can do more than what this particular prepackaged app does so some something like that kind of approach I think could Potentially help with both problems for you know Hey, did you know you can add events that are already here? And hey, do you know you can add more modules and do something different? So that's I think something we can consider as a great way to help get people up that ramp of realizing just how much there is To Drupal. Yeah, we have outstanding issues in the queue right now that discuss providing tips or some kind of mechanism that I mean, that's another I mean the way I Framed connecting the dots right here was big picture thinking but Yes, we want to provide some we have need to find a pattern that on the content Create content List where you show the article on the page and the foreign topic to provide a link create your own Yes, yeah Yeah, I just I just want to say that that's definitely something that we were talking about when we were thinking about the up to speed Aid that we were proposing It's definitely more complex implementation, but what's really great about it is that? If you show a slide show of like 10 slides to users like they're probably not gonna remember most of it Which is really unfortunate But the way that people actually do remember things is by doing it and that's a great way to split to you know Go into the middle between like do you do everything for them? Or do you like just tell them all the information at the beginning, but it you know It's this idea of like you have a tutorial that they follow along with and it's very contextual And it actually involves them doing that because then they develop that mental muscle memory It's you know, it's just more complicated to implement and then something you know initially But like definitely something to think about and like studies have shown that like if you Tell people to if you show people how to do things in the context like that's how they understand and that's how they remember them And that's why things like that are very helpful and I mean I Guess you just have to make sure that you're guiding them like because like you don't want random things to pop up in random places And being like oh you're installing a theme Did you also know that you can install modules because people be like well I'm installing a theme right now. What's a module? You know, so it just I guess you know Context, yeah Yeah, exactly, I mean it's just to make sure that the the arc of you know the design and it's well tested and yeah Yeah, yeah, thank you Thank you. You're all for for doing this session and yeah, I think one of the the The most important things we need to to see here is that all of the three possible distributions are Just our first examples for what we can do with Drupal and One of the most important point for me in the in the process of portfolio thus far was the actual involvement of the community and basically with the most important difference that That the community is involved in the entire design process from the start. So basically I What I mean is I could have probably hammered out that Installation profile within a single day on my own. Yes, but we already have like I Think I counted them three months ago, but back then I think there were 160 installation profiles. Oh man, we don't want to go to module through it, right? and so I Looked into many of them and they were almost undocumented. You didn't know what you actually get It wasn't clarified for which audience it is Which features are contained? I Mean everything that makes up a product basically Which makes you which makes? everyone Well, yeah, choose a product Regardless of what kind of product we are talking about and so That's basically. Yeah, my my most important Lesson from her portfolio as far as basically to yeah Document the process publicly and get as many people as possible involved with different perspectives. So Yeah, we can Hopefully and with the yeah in my mind then the very first installation profile or distribution that was built by the community and designed by the community in the open and And it's also going to be maintained by the community just like the installation profiles in Drupal core are maintained by the community With the difference that these profiles might not end up in core so for example Portfolio has many features that won't Yeah, won't be able to do In don't fade in core and with core only I guess we will have like 20 or 30 contrived modules that actually Deliver the functionality we are going to need and Yeah, so that's So there's a there's a very lengthy design process involved and with lots of design decisions But also technical decisions and for the community. It's important to figure out how we actually build Product I mean in the community because we never did something like that before and the core profiles don't really count because Yeah, so if I understand you correctly you say we should build one that does add contrived and Goes farther than core can do right and it is also That's the current plan for a portfolio To be based on Drupal 7 and to consume contrived modules and When we are done with that then we will actually have Some good or better understanding. What is actually needed? Yeah to build a little side Such a site with Drupal and then we have also better understanding What do we actually need in core in order to support that specific use case, but what I'm really after is like The It doesn't really matter that much to me whether we are building a portfolio site or not for me The most important step is really Doing the exercise to figure out how we do it. I mean, yeah There was also earlier this the question about Is it a blog or not? and how we came up with with the name portfolio and the The goal of the of the product and And Yeah, the the The course for that was pretty simple. We basically The initial course was just I looked at Larry's side. I looked at your site I look at my side. I'll let that all of our own science and Yeah, it's quite obvious we we all want to present ourselves our work and We we don't really run blocks. We Represent ourselves on the net. Yeah, that's basically That was basically the the the most trivial product we could build and for which we actually have our own use Yeah, so we solve our own problem and That's I think a very good approach to to yeah gain experience in this area and we could also do the same for their for the on-ramp profile And I'm specifically thinking there about local Drupal user groups Nice which could use websites I'm running runs one since like six months and I'm really having the problem there that I am I need to use Facebook and I need to use all kinds of strange tools outside because There's no simple way to just simply say, okay, give me a site for my local user group So we can plan this thing. We can organize the events. We can discuss Stuff and document what we Discussed last time and who attended on Whatever, I mean and yet that's in the end exactly the the the original idea of snowman or on-ramp So again, we could solve our own problems there and with such a profile we could yeah Yeah start to to support our grassroots Yeah, I like the idea. I think maybe then if I'm thinking Fantasy that instead of signing up to Drupal org and you'd install Your own Drupal at org and you'd be connected One last thing so there was also this the idea of Basically clicking together your profile and I think we should defer all of these ideas to later because When we really start to Use profiles more in the community then this will be just simply the logical after-step So, yeah, I don't think We want actually we actually want to pre-send a lengthy wizard to everyone who wants to just simply try to Drupal on Drupal org Those users just want to well perhaps download one profile and start playing with it and At some point we want our profiles to allow Yeah, add features certain functionalities to them that isn't contained right from the start But right now our main challenge is really to to get that Process started the profile process Will be an interesting exercise. Yeah So, um, that's two. Yeah Two things one is a small nitpicking thing, but the other one I'm I have a I don't have the answer I don't know anyone who would have the answer for the question But the first one is so what we are saying is that choose a profile or Nah, just give me what's doubted box experience I'm thinking probably it's it's worth considering doing the opposite way is like give me the out-of-box experience or choose Because it kind of sends a different Message, yeah That's one thing we can talk about that the other question I have is that thinking about it is like the I experience is that I'm the site builder I am the designer. I'm the content creator So it is based on the roles and not so much about what am I designing for? Whereas in a group, it's probably more separated and the world. It's completely different like this to put or kind of thing So maybe it's important because all those experiences are going to be different And if you're talking so much about the onboarding experience, what we're going to present is going to be also different based on the roles true Was there a question in there a question is so is it worth rethinking or not worth rethinking is it what? we I don't know It's it takes a while to absorb all these things and then probably think about it because once we go start designing and implementing We never go in retrospect is that is this the right way to go about it? So I would encourage people to think about Does it make more sense to have these three buckets based on roles and not on what is on the website? Yeah, I mean I'm at League of Inns that we won't have three three specific products in core. So I'm liking I think it's it's working as a conversation starter and I think that you're you're bringing up valid points. Yeah Turn it inside out upside down, please What's that go ahead? I actually want to piggyback on what Sun just said one of the things I liked about the portfolio Concept when he first posted it was that the target audience was a Drupal developer Because you know go into the core concepts and usability is Know that user and you are not your own user Yeah, which makes it really hard to know what your user base wants if you don't know what your user base is and we run The risk of having to abstract the target for some of these profiles Yeah, and that leads us into analysis paralysis and all that wonderful stuff that keeps things from getting done But if we can say you know We want an install profile for The solo developer who wants to show off them Yeah, we know what that that person wants because we've got 30 of them in this room Yeah, if we want an install profile not for You know an organization that wants to discuss and get stuff out No, it's an install profile for a user group for something like Drupal or PHP or something like that Yeah, that is a very specific targeted Use case that it's a very specific targeted user that we can then Build towards without running the risk of well, what about this group when this group? We just know this is what we're looking for and then once you've got that built Maybe we can generalize it a bit, but it's a first step. I really like that idea I like that as a focus for the exercise Sun is a proposal. Yeah, exactly Use cases and users that we know intimately. Yeah, our good first step The question is is how inviting that will be to the rest of the world But it's a first step and if we can then build that and then generalize from there. Yeah, great Hi, I think that you're solving a very a Very real problem for the business and I think it's a great idea I would like to help but it's not obvious in which pathway to help from the community because there's these three Projects that are all kind of doing the same thing with this Like the I the us the world concept because there's lots of use cases that can fall in each one of those buckets So I'm not going to even go there. It's not one thing, right? Those things are conceptual buckets And I don't want to I'm not going to try to solve that here but I what I'm seeing is that there's a gap from The piece of vision and it's it's indicative of all questions being brought up this let's define What installation profiles are these markers that go with them that type of thing? I would like to help and I just don't see where Where a good place to start is and maybe this is Yeah, because I don't do a lot of the open source contribution I'd like to start solving it and maybe this is what you guys have run into a lot before But I don't know like who do I talk to do I talk to where do I talk to you? Where would you like to help building designing? Conceptualizing yes, I Architect I can and I'm coming from yes business and account management and everything. It's like I don't care I will help because it's such a valid valid need for the community for Developers and businesses and it's triple garden saw it right because they wanted to have the entry point into Drupal much easier But then this is going to be something where you can as a developer rip it apart a little bit more obtainable and so that's where it's gonna I Think that the learning from Drupal gardens would be great to leverage in this situation And so it's a it's a very cohesive effort. I think yeah the community, but I would like to help So I'll talk to anybody after this Please do Okay Yeah, thanks for all this feedback