 Insurance companies will look at the pharmacoeconomic studies, it's so obvious when you look at patients who are on cannabis, how much the money savings over traditional pharmaceuticals. The complexity of the plant is leading to a myriad of therapeutic benefits that I never would have predicted. You know I've been running around the country now for ten years trying to persuade the public to look at this and see the injustice of this monopoly and how, you know, just the absurdity that their taxpayer dollar, millions of taxpayer dollars going to fund this year after year, but botanical medicines seem to offer the most hope for patients to treat a variety of illnesses all with one intervention. You're seeing people's lives being completely transformed. Their entire world view has been changed, the way they interact with other people, with nature, it's this whole thing of the doctor is God and we're supposed to be micromanaging every aspect of patient's life. I don't like that, I want to empower the patients to make their own good decisions about their wellness, I try to just give them menu of options of things that might be helpful and then we decide together rather than me sitting on a pedestal ordering them around, you know. I know someone's opinion may contradict yours. Where's my friend Alan? It's all about your perspective, who are we and what is the nature of this reality? Five, four, three, two... What's up everyone? Welcome to Simulation, I'm your host Alan Sockian. We're on site at the beautiful New West Summit, the Cannabis Tech Conference. We are now sitting down with Dr. Seussis. Yes. Hi Sue. Hey Alan, how you doing? Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for coming on our show. Absolutely. I'm so excited for this conversation. Me too. Sue works in Internal Medicine, President and Principal Investigator at Scottsdale Research Institute and with your mother, Hannah, formed the, reportedly the only mother-daughter MD physician team in Arizona. It's true, it's true. There aren't many mother-daughter doctor teams, period. There are a lot of father-son teams, but you know, there are not that many. There's too much estrogen in the room. It just doesn't work well, but we tolerated each other. That was fabulous. I was 20 years, I was in practice with her and I just learned so much. She just retired recently at age 80. I finally let her retire. So now she's 86 and all she does is watch the news all day and smoke weed. It's like an unbelievable transformation she's had. Her favorite strain is green crack. She's always asking me, where's my green crack, Sue? I'm like, oh God, this is awful. My mom's a stoner now. This is a disaster. When did your fascination with medicine kick in when you were young? How did you pick up your journey into? Yeah, I really had no clue about cannabis as a medicine at all until about maybe 15 years ago. The veterans in my medical practice were claiming that they were benefiting from it. And I was super skeptical at that point. I was just like rolling my eyes thinking these guys are just addicted, you know, stoners that are trying to get high. And it took me years to really kind of reformulate my thinking because I was just so blocked. When you go through the very conservative medical training, you only view FDA-approved medicines as real medicine. And so I just couldn't wrap my head around the idea that this plant that we'd only been trained that it was dangerous and addictive. So we couldn't fathom that this could be medicine. And I feel really awful about that now because I feel I was so judgmental and these veterans were truly benefiting, but I couldn't accept that. So it took me, you know, really vets plus all their family members coming in and trying to corroborate their stories. And slowly, you know, luckily these guys never gave up on me. The vets just kept coming back and trying to persuade me of their experiences. And then I started losing a lot of vets in my medical practice to suicide. And I still was, you know, couldn't comprehend that the cannabis might be lifesaving for them. But I was, you know, I would see a lot of them would, you know, when they were on cannabis, they were able to taper themselves off opioids and heroin. You know, other, a lot of them were addicted to pain pills from the VA because it was just so easy for the VA to prescribe mega dosages of opioids all the time. And then these guys would graduate, they'd get cut off their pain pills when the VA realized they were hooked, and they would, and graduating the heroin and other street drugs. And so that's how we would lose a lot of veterans to suicide was they would just get strung out on so many street drugs after being, you know, getting addicted on pharmaceuticals through their VA experience. So now the VA's pulled back and they're recognizing the damage that's been caused by all this polypharmacy. But in the meantime, you know, so many lives have been lost and, you know, and I feel responsible for a lot of it. Like I played a role, I was part of that machine that was prescribing all these pills. But I never felt good about it. That was the thing that I remember was that I always viewed these pills as very toxic. And so I always would try to seek alternatives. But there was really nothing else in the mainstream that was, you know, that was realistic. And then that's how we started becoming aware of cannabis and started seeing, you know, when I had this incredible gift to partner with MAPS, you know, when Rick Doblin first found me, I don't know, that's like 14 years ago now, I think when he first saw me working on the legalization campaign in Arizona. And he was looking for a principal investigator for a cannabis trial. And that's how it all began. And so I'm so grateful to him because he really put me on this path of examining plant-based medicines and realizing that there's more than just FDA-approved medicines. And so... Plus all the veterans that you had coming to you and telling you about their experiences. Yes. And that changing them, plus also losing some to suicide. Oh yeah, we lost so many. And I mean, it was heartbreaking to work with the families after we have this charity called Grasp, where the parents who've lost children come together to console each other. And I would go to these meetings just riddled with guilt because I felt like I was part of that machine, you know, that was pommeling them with all these prescriptions. And I'm so desperate to find now medically active plants that could be a substitute for these really difficult, you know, toxic pharmaceuticals. And so, you know, I'm not anti-pharma. I just am frustrated with pharma because it feels like they're suppressing work like this. You know, when people are trying to put plant-based medicines through the FDA process, I feel like pharma is playing a role in stonewalling this work. Even though it's not obvious, right, they're not coming out publicly and saying that. But by writing giant PAC checks to electeds who we know are opposed to this and keeping the campaign contributions flowing, all that, we can't even track that anymore, right? Since the Supreme Court, you know, the Citizens United decision, we can't follow all this dark money anymore. We used to be able to see this money trail going from pharma to electeds, from private prisons to electeds and all that. But now all you have are these independent expenditure committees. You don't even know how them up. But we know that their history, their tradition has always been to target electeds that they know are going to keep like what we just talked about here at New West, keeping this government-enforced monopoly at the University of Mississippi. You know, that will guarantee that cannabis research is never allowed to flourish in the U.S. As long as University of Mississippi is the only federally legal drug supply for every cannabis clinical trial in the nation, means that we'll never be able to fully understand cannabis as a medicine through controlled trials. And meanwhile, other countries will just dominate the research space for the cannabis. That's it. They're already, all these foreign countries are miles ahead of us. And at this point, we may never be able to catch up because they all have multiple growers for research. They're able to study diverse phenotypes that are real, real world cannabis, readily available in all their markets. And even if the DEA announced tomorrow that they were really going to process these applications, it would still take these companies years to get up and running. You know, it's not like they're just magically poof. They've got cannabis to sell to scientists. It's going to take years for them to, you know, multiple grow cycles before they reach what the government considers GMP-grade cannabis. So I'm worried that, you know, we're falling so far behind. And that's why a lot of our work is involved with, you know, partnering with foreign entities to try to do this research because other countries where it's federally legal, it's so much more permissive the environment to move forward. And so we could partner with people in Australia, with Columbia, all these groups that are already federally legal. But in the meantime, you know, these guys, the patients in our country are going to be stuck with the full freight, the full cost of this cannabis because insurance companies will never pay for this until it's FDA approved. So that's been the problem. I've had a couple instances, I will admit, where we've gotten disability insurance to pay. It's like a single case agreement where a patient can get their cannabis paid for. But the insurance company only reimburses the patient. They're not going to pay the dispensary. So and that's fine, but it's a good start. Now it gives me some help that maybe insurance companies will look at the pharmacoeconomic studies. It's so obvious when you look at patients who are on cannabis, how much the money savings over traditional pharmaceuticals. So it's so clear. Now take us into this period of the last 14 years of what you've been doing in the industry as a physician, how you've been leading that. Yeah, you know, the the challenge when, you know, MAPS and I began trying to spearhead this study and we realized we were like systematically impeded by the government at every step. We it was taking so many years that I that's when I started partnering with the industry serving as a volunteer medical director for all these different license holders around the country. And so at this point now, I'm a medical director in 17 states. I counted from Hawaii to, you know, to all the way to New Jersey. I'm all these states in between. I'm helping guide these industry folks on how to manage their operations from a medical, from a health perspective, how to promote wellness, but also minimize side effects, how to how to educate patients about, you know, how to carefully use cannabis and minimize the adverse events. So so that's been my role. And that's how I've learned the most about cannabis, because if I was just waiting for the study to get approved, you know, I would have lost all these years of of the chance. So working with these license holders has given me a chance to be with patients on the front lines, which has been great. I've learned so much from them about all the different formulations and how it affects them. And the one thing I've I've really all the complex health and wellness benefits. That's the thing is I didn't understand how, you know, the complexity of the plant is leading to a myriad of therapeutic benefits that I never would have predicted. And it's added, you know, more and more curiosity for me and kind of driven me toward this litigation against the DEA, because now I'm realizing that there's all these unique delivery methods that I can't even access through the current monopoly. Like, for instance, there are so many patients that claim that juicing raw cannabis flour, it benefits them, especially people who have autoimmune diseases, like arthritis or inflammatory bowel diseases, things like that. They're juicing the plant and then drinking it, and they're getting way better results than anything I could produce by writing the scripts for steroids and other things. So so I've been really persuaded by that, but yet I could never get fresh flour to study from University of Mississippi. They just don't have any provision for that. And that's why it's so essential that we end this monopoly and that we get private growers, like with MAPS, has a partnership with University of Massachusetts and Lyle Craker. And Dr. Craker is the most deserving scientist I know for receiving a federal, you know, schedule one license to grow for research. It would be incredible if I could buy cannabis from him and buy, you know, his fresh flour, write off the harvest and be able to administer that to patients for juicing, because I want to be able to replicate what they're doing in a controlled trial so I can understand. I'd like to measure lots of things, like the pharmacokinetics of how the orally, you know, ingested cannabis flour is being absorbed into the blood and the urine, and to be able to document the cytokines, you know, how the fresh flour is affecting the inflammatory pathway. Why is it that these people are getting such remarkable results? I'm just mystified by that. So, for every single one of the possibilities with the ingestion or the topical or however it is, the application of different cannabinoids, different dosages, for all of the different health and wellness benefits, therapeutic effects, we need to more rapidly create the process of being able to run the controlled tests and trials. We have to, because otherwise the patients, I mean, that's what patients tell me all the time, see, we don't need your trials because we know it's helping. So, and I agree with them that, you know, I support their, how do I say this, like, I understand that they're subjective experiences with and the way they're benefiting, but I deal with a medical community that's very conservative thinking and when you're dealing with health departments or elected officials, you have to have data from randomized controlled trials. That's it. But the sad thing is like with the veteran study I did with MAPS, 10 years it took us to get that trial across the finish line. So, I understand why patients can't wait for that, like they need safe legal access to lab tested cannabis now. They can't wait for the results of FDA controlled trials. So, you just took this into your hands and said, I'm going to sue the DEA because of the monopoly on the University of Mississippi on the use of production of cannabis that is then being used for all the clinical trials. Right. I mean, this was something that MAPS has been working on for two decades now. They've been striving to dismantle this monopoly and persuade the government to license other growers, but their initial litigation was successful but then lost on appeal. So, this is just so unjust that the government perpetuating this monopoly using our taxpayer dollars to allow this monopoly, all the apathy also that's bred for monopolies. So, all I was doing was trying to riff off of what Rick Doblin and the team at MAPS has been doing all this time, which is they've been trying to use the court system for a remedy to this monopoly. It wasn't successful initially. They had a partnership with a law firm that was tough. When these law firms take cases pro bono, you're not going to be their top priority. So, I was really fortunate to be able to identify this really dedicated young law team that jumped on board. As soon as they heard the story, I've been running around the country now for 10 years trying to persuade the public to look at this and see the injustice of this monopoly and just the absurdity that their taxpayer dollars, millions of taxpayer dollars going to fund this year after year. I'm trying to ignite this national conversation and suddenly there happened to be these two young attorneys that heard the message at a lecture that South by Southwest and said, we need to help her. It's so unusual to find attorneys that want to do something without being paid. And they just sensed that this was a massive... Aligned with them spiritually? Yeah, that's it. They said this is an attack on scientific freedom and we have to fix this. And they knew that they had the skills to do it. And the fact that they weren't involved in cannabis at all. They never had a cannabis client. They just felt so strongly that this needed to be fixed. So, it's great to see that gives you like a kind of renews your faith and humanity because lawyers get such a bad rep for being greedy and these guys are the opposite. And they managed to persuade their law firm which is super conservative firm in Texas to let them take this on. And they've been really pleased with how much traction they've been getting. And even the team at Maps has just incurred... Maps has got to be so laser focused right now on getting MDMA through the FDA approval process. They were happy to have somebody else grab this baton and run with it. I think Rick is really pleased to see this moving forward. And he's been hugely supportive because this was really his vision. He taught me about the unfairness of the monopoly and trained us to fight against this. And that's the best thing about working for Maps for a nonprofit is that they allow you to have political opinions and express them. They actually nurture that. Whereas with other, you know, if I had another study sponsor they wouldn't be so welcoming of that attitude. And you could see what happened to us at the University of Arizona. When we had political opinions and expressed them at the legislature or anywhere we could find, we ultimately, the university, terminated me and the study and left us homeless for over a year. We were struggling to find a new location. But now we ended up in this great giant log cabin in the middle of Cave Creek, Arizona, where we've created a really therapeutic environment for patients to come and participate in clinical trials. But also what we're hoping is that we'll be a home for MDMA expanded access. That's my real dream is to be able to side by side to have the Canvas clinical trials alongside of an expanded access clinic where patients could go and get, you know, potentially life-saving treatment through MDMA assisted therapy. And I know we have a long way to go, you know, to get all the approvals in place for that. But I'm hoping by the end of 2020 that we'll be able to start recruiting patients and seeing if we can provide that. And then down the road, who knows what, opening up other doors for medically active plants besides, you know, maybe psilocybin or ayahuasca, whatever we can find. But the idea is that- The accruing nature. Yes, I love that. Carlos is incredible what he's doing. And he's like lighting a fire under all these states to see that this is not right. You know, wasting taxpayer dollars chasing people for a natural plant is insane and it's just inhumane. So I think, yeah, I'm hoping that eventually we're gonna see all of these plant-based medicines getting through the FDA approval process and really giving pharma a big competition because pharma is getting very lazy. Like you're seeing all the- They're not really creating novel medications anymore. We're not seeing new mechanisms of action. All they're doing is reformulating their same old molecules and repatting them so they can continue to make tons of money. Whereas, you know, I think plant- Botanical medicines seem to offer the most hope for patients to treat a variety of illnesses all with one intervention. That's, to me, the most exciting. And that's why, you know, my enthusiasm for cannabis research has waned so much because I'm looking at the data from, you know, our controlled trial where we were forced to use government cannabis. And, you know, the results are really disappointing. And whereas when you look at the data maps, phase two trial with MDMA, and it's extraordinary, you're seeing people's lives being completely transformed. Their entire world view has been changed, the way they interact with other people with nature. It's just- And I think probably the most hope I have is for palliative care, right? So, because that's the bulk of my- I'm an internal medicine doc, so I do a lot of work with people at the end of life and a lot of work with hospice. And hospice has not been open to this yet, but I'm eager to see, as we get these drugs through FDA approval, that they'll finally start to embrace us because when you're at the end of life and you're struggling with this existential anxiety, just riddled with brutal fear of death that does not respond to benzodiazepines and stuff like that, the chance that instead of pummeling these people with morphine and all these super sedating meds, the chance that they could be utilizing psychedelics carefully, judiciously to relieve themselves of that. That existential anxiety just melts away with LSD and MDMA, and suddenly these people are no longer afraid they're able to enjoy their families and be with, really engage with their families as they face death. And I've already put that in my, how do you call that? My, what is the power of attorney? And I mean, I basically instructed my power of attorney when I'm at the end of my life that I want to be dosed with, if I'm in a vegetative state and I'm not able to request this, that I want that because I know that I've seen the way these people have just, have begun, it's almost like a whole new chapter where they're able to really get through death without, and they talk about love and light and it's a whole another person. So I'm really excited by that. And I think that eventually the classically trained psychiatrists will start to embrace this too, just like ketamine got approved. I mean, sure, it's a pharmaceutical grade S ketamine, but it's still a step in the right where psychedelics now being FDA approved. And hopefully we'll see that door continue to crack open. You're really seeing this from top down in so many different ways. I love it. So I know, especially when you take us through the trajectory of where it's going through both yourself doing clinical trials for cannabis. And so that's you guys doing this. And then all the way to this future where you also see it part of our death, the process of planning our death process. I mean, these are things that are, we don't, we gotta talk about these things more and make them more common to talk about. And what properties does a cannabis and the use of entheogens have on our spiritual ascension? And what can that do for our global harmony and unity and prosperity and maximizing people's creativity and abilities? And so I want to know from you though, this one's really important because we've been asking this quite a bit. The question is this emerging market has a kind of, it's actually quite important that specifically this one as well as like decentralization technology, blockchain cryptocurrency technology, like that one too, that these emerging markets that the fruits become distributed and democratized rather than concentrated. So how do you see the inclusive stakeholder fabric that can be made in order to ensure? That's the thing that scares me. The most is that this becomes a treatment only for people of wealth because right now until it gets FDA approved and health insurance pays for it, it's gonna, people are gonna be self-pay on treatments that may cost $10,000 to $15,000 per patient and that means that it will be highly exclusive. I'm hoping like in our clinic, we hope to charge people with high net worth to try to charge them double the amount so that they can help pay for indigent patients that wouldn't normally be able to afford it. But that's the only mechanism I can think of right now until we finally get health insurance coverage and even then coverage is gonna be difficult or probably require prior authorization and you know how doctors hate to go through these extra layers of bureaucracy but we have to push for that because otherwise this will become, it'll either become strictly for patients in the underground who can pay a lesser price or it'll be for people of wealth and other folks won't have access and we have millions of patients who are suffering with PTSD. We don't have any new treatments in 18 years. The U.S. has never approved a new treatment since Paxil and Zoloft. So we're desperate to find new interventions but if we are careful, yeah it'll end up being just for people of means and I hate to think about that and we also have another issue that you know how do we, like in Arizona I work very extensively with the Native American community. I do telemedicine with the tribes and the tribes, many of them already employ psyched medically active plants in their ceremonies. So they're already familiar with things like peyote and ayahuasca and things but the problem is that some of these other, like when it comes to something like MDMA, they're not open to that and I am worried that they will, like because we don't have Native American therapists, like it's gonna be so crucial that the teams of therapists that are trained over the next five years have to represent people of color and all different factions of our communities because otherwise if the therapists don't reflect that then it's gonna be unlikely we can bring those people into those clinics and get them to accept the treatment because they won't be trusting of us, you know? If it's just a bunch of white people that are saying no this is good for you, I mean the tribes have been through that before and they know how that turned out when they trusted white people. So it's gonna be really crucial that, and I know maps is making that a high priority in the way they're training people, they're trying to create scholarships for people of color to get trained as a priority so that we can have a very diverse therapist community right out of the gate and that way we can persuade whether it's, there's still tons of antiquated ideas from especially in communities like African American, Native American communities that are skeptical about the potential of MDMA as a medicine and we're gonna have to do a lot of education to make them realize that this is legitimate medicine. So I'm hoping that by starting by making sure that therapy teams are diverse is gonna be the first step and then doing tons of outreach in the communities kind of mini town halls and round tables with them really sitting down with them at dinner and explaining how this can work. Especially in Native American communities so there's so much trauma there at all levels. Trauma is like day in and day out for them and if MDMA could, or psilocybin or what could be a potential therapy then we've gotta make that available to them and we've gotta find ways to reduce the cost of the treatment. Right now it's massive and if there's any way maps can slowly pair down the number of hours that are really needed to do the pre-flight training and the post-integration or if there's ways for them to think about group therapy settings or employing telemedicine those are all things that might be able to reduce costs but we have to think very shrewdly otherwise it's gonna end up being a very narrow group of people that benefit. Do you see this, since you have such a macro perspective on things do you see this as a massive awakening consciously spiritually of the entire planet to rise to the grand challenges that are upcoming? I am really impressed with how this has taken off but there's still a massive amount of uninformed people so there's the groups that have experimented with this who already are enlightened and they know the value of psychedelics but then there's still tons especially in the older generations that are not ready to embrace the idea because there was so much cultural misinformation out of the 60s and 70s that has colored people's thinking for decades after now and our government waged a really shrewd campaign against psychedelics for so many years and it's gonna be tough to change that trajectory but that's why the data is so important because with science I'm hoping if we can get rigorous controlled data published in peer-reviewed medical journals that's gonna be able to game-changer from worldviews for sure if we're making progress happen faster and getting elected officials to make decisions based on science rather than hysteria and old emotions and so but the best thing that happens is by the more and more people who are trying it they're being transformed like for instance in my case I've never tried any psychedelics yet I still have not had that but I intend to have it next year I'm getting ready to become an MDMA therapist to be able to work in my own clinic and part of the maps training is that you have to actually use you have to go through an MDMA session with the trained therapist so that you can experience that and then you have the empathy then to guide people later so I'm so happy that maps design the training that way that you go through the meat of the training beforehand and then you actually get to dose the MDMA in a structured environment so I'm really looking forward because I wasn't, well I was afraid to use MDMA outside of that type of structured environment but now they're giving me a chance to do it so I think I can't wait to talk to you afterwards because I have a strong suspicion that I will also be very, my mindset will be completely different afterward and I'm hopeful about that because I want to know what that's about and I want to be able to guide patients through that later so, but yeah I mean so all of the insight I have is just from observing patients all these years I've spent hours and hours with patients and friends and colleagues who've used psychedelics I've learned from them and I've asked questions over and over to try to gain understanding and yeah I mean I think that all of us have tons of hope for psychedelics to cure more than just medical conditions but of course to provide spiritual growth to cure big conflicts like you think about the conflicts in the Middle East my parents are Israeli so I know firsthand how brutal that is you know what's happened for so many decades there is seems impenetrable like how could we possibly fix this we've had all kinds of interventions from government elected officials and treaties and nothing has helped and so you wonder what can change people biologically that could make them open to having a humane discussion with someone I mean I know that when I was you know most Israelis are raised to believe that the Arabs that they're surrounded by are their enemy and that they could never trust them or be able to have relationships with them you know friendships and so the idea that psychedelics could provide them the opportunity to to have meaningful interactions and realize that they're not the enemy is a wonderful concept and I'm hoping we get to you know I'm hoping that governments will employ psychedelics in that way later but I don't know it's going to take a lot of work and that's why it's so great that MAPS is doing the MDMA one of their clinical trial sites is in Israel and maybe some day they'll be in Palestine and we'll be able to start bringing people together to get this myriad of health and wellness benefits of spiritual growth benefits that to to have the fruits of the emergent market be democratized it's going to require a lot of you know protocol like regulatory shifts on you know these clinical trials to see to continue like you said this big literally stop with the monopoly with the University of Mississippi so that we can continue doing these right again these rice randomized control trials can we continue doing the things that we need to do in order to ensure that the awakening can happen as fast as possible okay one question that we like asking our guests on the way out of the show and then we'll revisit and we'll do round two again and okay you got it we'll do a deeper dive right of course we'll go deeper what do you think is the most beautiful thing in the world oh boy oh boy I mean I have to say for me it's um this is going to sound super cheesy but um the thing that makes me happiest is watching live theater I know that sounds great but I've I've always been completely enamored with watching people play out their you know stories on stage and and just the joyfulness of like live musicals and things like that so for me that's beauty is watching live art playing out on stage and um and seeing people have these like almost euphoric experiences and then that that real subtle interaction with the audience and breaking the fourth wall and so so to me that's like brings meaning to my life personally um and I just like isn't this itself theater for some someone else watching it could be yeah you don't have to have costumes and all that and but I mean a big planet theater as a planet as a as a species that's it they say all the world's a stage and we're all actors so this is it man we're doing it right now so yeah I would say that's beauty to me there's the connection between why you like that is because you yourself play it that's it I play our character yeah we do I mean I'm you know as doctors you know we feel like we're often um it's it seems that we're actors but I've always been resisted that because I feel like being with a patient means you've got to be real and I don't like putting on the white code and donning all the pretentious bullshit of doctoring so I feel like that's why I have such meaningful interactions with my patients because they know that I'm human and that I don't buy into all the trappings of you know so I'm hoping that we can and I think that's what's made me that capable of being open to other met that this whole thing of the doctor is God and we're supposed to be micromanaging every aspect of patients life I don't like that I want to empower the patients to make their own good decisions about their wellness I try to just give them menu of options of things that might be helpful and then we decide together rather than me sitting on a pedestal ordering them around you know so that's always worked well for me and my mom and I know the patients especially with my mom she's like an incredible physician I was really lucky to be taught by her for so long I learned so much so yeah so anyway keep up this great your time man you got thank you huh you got it but yeah whoa thanks everyone for doing it and we greatly appreciate we'd love to hear your thoughts in the comments below on the episode let us know what you're thinking check out the links to Sue's work in the bio below please check it out support it also check out the links to new west summit as well in the bio below also support the artists the entrepreneurs the leaders the community organizers across the world that you believe in support them help them grow you can support simulation our links are below to our show as well and also go and build the future everyone manifest your dreams into the world catalyze this emergent renaissance that's happening we love you very much we'll see you soon yeah good job man you're awesome that was fun you are such a good interviewer we we should we'll do round two after mdma yeah i think that would be helpful