 So folks online, struggle to hear us at any point, please let us know. You know, the Ordinance Charter Change Committee is to order, it's May 4th at 6.07 PM. My name is Ben Travers, he counts from Board 5 and I'm the chair of the Ordinance Committee. It is my privilege to co-chair this process with, when I introduce yourself Gene, I think for the most part we all know each other here, but. I am Gene Bergman, I am the chair of the Charter Change Committee. The other half of the joint committee and I'm very pleased to be here to kick this off and look forward to the robust as the resolution called for the conversation that we will have. Thank you Gene, so also from the Ordinance Committee we have Councilor Shandyn from the South District, John, I don't know if you want to introduce yourself, I've just introduced you, but. Well, assuming you don't want to pull bio, I think that's probably fine. That's enough, okay. Councilor Carpenter, jointly here in both your role as a member of the Ordinance Committee and the Charter Change Committee. Councilor Hightower, online from board one member of the Ordinance Committee and Councilor Doherty from the East District member of the Charter Change Committee. So there are six of us here. I think. You want to introduce the commission? Yeah, so that's my next step here. I appreciate that. So I think Council Bergman tell me if you feel differently about this, but I think our intention and one of the reasons online we've promoted everyone to panel us here is that we do want this to be as Council Bergman noted and as noted in the resolution that created this committee, a robust process with a lot of community engagement, want all sorts of different stakeholders, folks online, the folks here in the room to feel like they have an opportunity to participate. And so the agenda this evening is one where once we give folks in the room an opportunity to introduce themselves, the members of the joint committee, the intention here is that each one of us to the extent we have something to say at this moment would be able to take a couple minutes just to give an initial overview of what they're hoping to get out of this process and perhaps if they have any sort of brief substantive thoughts on the items to dive into that question as well. We then want to to the extent folks here, whether other counselors or commissioners or any member of the public or other stakeholders here want to weigh in on what they're hoping to get out of this process or see the committee do, we certainly want to give any member outside of this committee who wants to say something an opportunity to speak. And then we do have a hard stop this evening at 7.30. So the hope is that we'll then be able to double back to the counselors on this committee to discuss really next steps for the meetings that we have scheduled going forward and how we expect those meetings to look. Does that all make sense to you? Yes, I mean, just to be clear, we'd start with the committee members, the joint committee members, those brief comments, and then open it up to public comments from everybody and anybody in their clear counselors who are on D'Auster Grant is there, maybe others, commissioners, and then after we go through all of the public comment, then we would circle back. Great. So before jumping into those comments, I think if folks are open to it, we'd like to go around the room and give other people an opportunity to introduce themselves. President Rao, could we start with you? Sure. Nice to be here. Nice to meet some of the people I met some of you, but not everybody. Sorry. Now the co-chair of the Berlin Police Commission, I'd be on the commission since November. I think that's what I got appointed. So thank you all for having me here. Great. Thanks. Hi, everyone. Chief. I'm sorry, I didn't know. John, you're on the acting chief of police. Can we ask you to come closer so I know you're part of this conversation? Sure. I didn't think I thought it was just a yes, but we're all more than just a yes. Thank you. I'm David Maher, board 4. I'm just a regular guy. Hi, I think I hear everyone. Joe, can you board 3C to councillor? I'm Amy Monastia, board 1. I'm part of people for these kinds of... I'm Joe Dempsey, city attorney's office staff, board 6. And thank you for being here, Joe. I really appreciate it. Can we turn online and Kim, perhaps, start with you? Yes. Kim, start with acting city attorney. And I staff both committees and just out sick, so zooming in today. So thank you, Joe, again for being there in person. Thanks, Kim. I appreciate your being here, even though I'm not feeling well and I hope you feel better soon. Thanks. Just going around the screen, Andy, could we go to you now? Sure. My name is Andy Blanchett. I'm the president of AFSCME 1674. Which is the Howard Center Workers Union. Councillor Grant. Hi, Councillor Grant, Central District for wards 2 and 3. And a former police commissioner. And I also formally served on the special committee to review policing policies. Commissioner Oskie. Hi, thanks for having me. This is Jessica Oskie. I'm a police commissioner and I live in ward 5. I think there are some other panelists who we can't see because we have non-video participants hidden. But I think, yeah, Jordan, I think we saw you log on. You're muted. Yes, I'm on my phone, so I'm just... Are you still there, Jordan? We may have lost Jordan, but Jordan Redell, keep a staff from the mayor's office. Okay. Was there anyone else on the participant side? Oh, and Councillor Paul, I don't know if you want to go in. I think you're the only one who hasn't gone yet. If you're there and want to introduce yourself, but I do see Council President Paul has joined us as well. All right. So, Jean, I think with those introductions that... Well, we do have, guys, I guess, some formal business to attend to, which is item one on our agenda is to adopt the agenda. Is our motion to adopt the agenda? So moved. So moved by Councillor Carpenter, seconded by Councillor Shannon. Any discussion on the agenda? All in favour say aye. Aye. Any opposed? It's unanimously adopted. That takes us to item two on our agenda, which is title review of committee materials and initial councillor comments. The materials posted to board dogs are not an exhaustive list of the dialogue that's taking place in our community over the last three years, the issue of oversight and accountability, but I think it gives us some important places in time as to the discussion that's happened today, at least in a formal capacity, and may or may not lead our discussion going forward tonight and looking forward. So I hope folks have had an opportunity to review those documents, really starting from the proposed charter change from both the council as well as the mayor's office in 2020, the veto of that charter change, an ordinance passed by the council in late 2021 that outlined potential process for the police commission to expand its oversight role, some draft language of that ordinance change and a formal response from at least the police commission at that time. And of course, one of the reasons and one of the big reasons we're here today is that this discussion was prompted by a citizen initiative to put question seven on the ballot with charter language that looks similar with some tweaks to the charter change that the council passed in 2020, and that's sort of the most recent point in time and a document that's on the agenda here. That's an outline of the documents. Did we include the resolution that created this committee as well or no? Yes. Yes, I think that is on the list. So that would be the final document. It is the final document. It gives us a framework. Yep. So I don't know. I mean, I've done most of the talking. I'm happy to continue with my helpfulness on this or if there's another council that wants to kick things off with respect to their couple minutes. Yeah, I mean, we just want to get right out on the table. What the joint committee is thinking but briefly so then then we can delve into the stuff and yeah, somebody should. Sarah. Okay. Just trying to read all through those attachments. I would say there has been over the last two and a half years a lot of conversation in discussion of the original proposal of the Mayor Vito and then Valeride 7. So that's gotten a lot of public time. What hasn't gotten much public time was the work that kind of happened in between with the Public Safety Committee at the time and the police commission at that time. So I'm just sort of throwing that out there. For me, that's that conversation that I'm not familiar with. So I'd like to put that kind of high on our agenda to invite back or to the table the people who did that work to synopsize it and tell us kind of where they think they were at when that kind of got put on hold. Great. I see Councilor Hightower as her hand raised and then Councilor Shannon. Great. Thanks. Yeah, I less so in needs, I think just in terms of prioritizing, I think it would just be good if we and I don't know if this is something that like Ben and Jean want to do before the next meeting, but I just want to be very clear about what we are trying to do with this and what we're not trying to do just so we don't get too lost. We could spend a lot of time debating a lot of different things. And if we've got some things that we want to come out of this, then I think focusing on like getting the framework in place. So that means like are we just are we talking about ordinance? Are we talking about a charter change? Do we need to have one before we have the other? Are we talking about investigatory discipline like the three sections of the thing? And there was one more big question. Oh, are we talking about sticking with the Police Commission? Are we talking about another body? So I think just getting some clarity on where we are at as a body on those things and what we want to cover before we just delve into materials because I think that could help us be a little bit more focused so that where people know I like my efficiency, it's efficient as possible. Right. Thank you. John. I think that there's I would like us to first understand our current system and then determine what's what we like, what we don't like about our current system. So better identify what we're trying to change. And with I've participated in these processes since the the committee to review policing policies in point 19, I forget what they're actually called, but in that policy and practice, which Milo also served on and in that committee, we got a tremendous amount of education about you know what the training of officers is and policies and it's a lot and I don't know that that's necessarily I don't think that actually that's where we need to go with this committee. But I do think understanding the current disciplinary structure where it's succeeded where it has failed will be helpful. And in all of this process that has gone on so far and as we can see on our agenda, it's a lot, but it has not been inclusive of those most directly impacted by it, which would be the police officers. And I think we need to think about how we want to engage police officers, not just the chief, not just the head of the union, but is there a way that you know, are nobody working at the police department right now as extra time on their hands. So is there a way that we can engage them by survey? How would they like to be engaged? Maybe the chief and the head of the union can you know, talk with them about how they would like to be engaged in this process because I think what we don't want to do is create an adversarial process. I think we want a collaborative process with everybody at the table. And I'm not sure how to actually make that happen. And we're Jean. I don't have any comments. Okay. Jean. I really appreciate the comments that folks have made because you know, they resonate with my thoughts. So when I start and many of the questions were asked, I look at the resolution that created this. And so it says that we're going to look at these documents, the ballot initiative, the Charter Amendment proposed by the administration in December of 20. The Council's 21 resolution and associated ordinance. And for us to have a robust review, I think that's really appropriate. And we talk about the committee receiving input on the disciplinary authority of the chief, the oversight role of the commission and the creation possible creation of an oversight body, which is separate from the department. And the last thing that we're charged with is to bring back proposed legislation by June 1. So my first initial comment is that June 1 is an unrealistic date. If we're going to have a robust input, and if we're going to do all of the other work that counselors have to do like the budget. So we just need to make that, I think, really clear. And I really agree with Joan, when she talks about us having a meaningful conversation, which is based on our city specific needs that goes to many of the things that she just talked about, as well as being conducted and involving people who are most impacted. And that includes in part, not in full, but in part, the officers that we have working for us. So I would actually just throw out the thought of us, and maybe we have to come back to the council with a resolution, but pushing the deadline back to say the first meeting in September. I think anything sooner than that is a railroad. And I don't hear any appetite just to get it done to sweep this off the table. I see everybody is being totally committed to getting this right. And if we can get consensus, God, that would be an amazing and wonderful thing. I have got some substantive things, which I won't go into because I want to listen to other folks about it. But I would say that the charge that we have, I think, in answer to Zariah's question, leaves open the possibility of us focused on an investigatory and an auditing and monitoring body or bodies or functions, one of them or the other of them. I think that they, it's going to need to include a level of transparency right at the outset, as well as substantive due process and procedural due process. And we heard that throughout the campaign about how important that is. And I think that we just need to have this part of our thinking. So that is a piece of our understanding. And the capacity, the last point I would just say is trying to be mindful of all that we want to do, the capacity of the commission, at least as we have it right now, to actually do the work that we hope that they will do and to do it well. And so that means looking at resources, it means looking at numbers, it means maybe being creative in terms of the structures that we come up with, whether it's a single body or it's all within a police commission, but there's a lot of work to be done. So it's not necessary that the same people are doing all this, all of the work. It could be, but I don't know that we are hamstrung by that. So those are my initial thoughts. Thank you very much, everyone for those thoughts. Yeah, one other point. This is along with Jones comment about learning what we have now and both Councilor Hightower and I sit on the Human Resources Committee and I chair it and we actually had a short conversation here today around how does discipline in general work in the city and how is the police department different or similar. And I just think that might give us some guidance. For instance, the HR committee sits on level two, I think it's called level two complaints. So, you know, how does that sort of relate and here in Derby, I think should mean if I had to discuss that. Yeah. So I think all those comments are very well taken. I think we'll provide an opportunity for other stakeholders and members of the public to weigh in as well and then double back to next steps. I think as part of that next step discussion, a person I think a part of that should be are deciding at our next meeting, do we have a dedicated agenda item to what you're talking about, Sarah? And whether or not that's Karen Derpy or whether or not I was actually talking to Jordan earlier about this, perhaps Jared Pellerin from the city attorney's office, I know it's very well versed in the different bargaining agreements and their brief and arbitration processes maybe would be someone to come and speak to about that. So I think we can reserve that discussion for what the next steps are because multiple people brought up questions around, for example, here and for folks who have been diving into this issue over the last couple of years. I know I can, I'm very glad to have Commissioner Rao, Commissioner Oskie here for the police commission. I heard from Stephanie Seglino earlier today and I know you heard that the police commission very much liked to come in in their formal world to give a more in-depth presentation as to their review of this issue. So I think we can come back to that. I have some substantive thoughts about this as well, Jean, but to go along with you and I'll hit pause on those for the moment so we can hear from other folks here. I do agree with you that June 1 is too ambitious of a timeline, so I'm happy to hear you say September. I think maybe we could get it done sooner than September, but I think September is a day that gives us enough bandwidth to do that work. I think it's a very high level here. We've heard the community weigh in on this issue in various respects, including most recently on Town Meeting Day, but I don't necessarily take the results of that vote as an indication that our community does not want us to take further action on community oversight and accountability. So I am hopeful that we come out of this not with a result that's simply falling back on the status quo, but that we come out of this with a proposal that hopefully has broad consensus and buy it for most if not all of the stakeholders here, the least of which being the police department and its members. I think there's a couple sort of chartered truths here that we are locked into, one of those being that our charter says that it's the chief of police that controls discipline within the police department, and the other piece says that our police commission is the body that sits in the role of an appellate body when an officer is appealing a disciplinary decision of the chief. So to go back to Councillor Hightower's point, I think if we need a charter change, it will be to the end of my perspective focusing in on those two questions. Do we want to change the disciplinary role of the chief of police, in which case we'll need to look at a charter change? Do we want to change the role of the police commission as sitting as the appellate body, in which case we would need a charter change? South of that I think we have a lot of flexibility to work within an ordinance to consider different possibilities here. I think even the draft ordinance language that the city attorney's office put together was able to consider a role for the police commission as an investigatory body while still maintaining its charter role as being a body that would hear appeals, and there was a process laid out in that draft language there where the police commission would basically be split in halves where there would be an investigatory half and an appellate half, and so I'll be interested to dive back into that question to the staff. We're interested in focusing on one body's police commission or two, but I think we have a lot in front of us here. I'm looking forward to the discussion to come. And Councillor Hightower, is your hand raised again before we turn to other folks here? Oh, I know Milo also had her hand raised, but happy to go first if we're doing ordinance or charter first. I think if we can keep it to the members of the committee first and then we'll turn to Councillor Graf. Okay. Oh, what was I going to say? Shoot, I actually forgot. So I do, I know that there's a lot of possibility. I do think that starting with disciplinarity authority for the maybe focusing on that for the next meeting is good just because I think that's the one that's the most charter heavy maybe in terms of like we know that that like if we don't want to go with the status quo, we know that that's something that will have to change within the charter. I would also be curious to hear based on the discussion that we've just had the acting chief's thoughts on how we do like as much as I'm like, okay, we won't make it by the June deadline. I do think we need to do this quickly. And so what kind of the most efficient and effective way is to get feedback from police officers on what works for them. And just for what it's worth, I feel like when we talk about a charter change, I feel like one, I think one of the principles that we want to use, you know, not that just causes past yet, which who knows when and if that will happen. But I think I think that's about the level of specificity that we want to go for. Like I wanted to be, I guess, just to get us towards like an end goal is I wanted to be clear and I wanted to be enough detail that folks know what to expect that still give us flexibility. I think one of the things that we might want to consider in that. Sorry, I'm just throwing things out because I think this is the stuff we're going to start discussing. So there's no point in waiting is investing that authority within the police commission to the extent possible. I think the charter should be flexible enough that if, you know, 10 years down the road, we want to create a separate body that that's possible, but that that's not mandatory. So I just want us to have flexibility within the charter to have it both ways, because I don't think we're ready as a community right now to have 14 people who have a lot of knowledge on understanding our police department. But I think we already have seven. But I think we could get to a point where we have 14 people. So yeah, I'm hoping for flexibility, hoping that we can have it be the police commission early on, but that we have the flexibility in the charter language to not necessitate that it's the police commission. Thank you. Thanks. So we'll have an opportunity after a public comment to come back to Councilor Summit Committee, but just are there any other Councilor Summit Committee that have any brief comments before we turn to, I think we would turn to Councilor Grant, and then I'd suggest then turning to Jordan from the Mayor's office and then perhaps to the Chief and then other folks who are here. Anyone else in the committee have any brief comments right now? We'll come back to the committee. Okay, Councilor Grant, thanks for your patience. Thank you, no problem. I just wanted to add a couple of words about the importance of understanding what oversight and accountability means. And I reached out to you earlier today, Ben, and I'm going to send you and Jean some links that I would like to recommend be sent out to all the community members, but have the two of you review it first and then just ask any questions. One of the links would be to the training that we received from NACOL when I was on the police commission. And these are also posted trainings for the public or anyone who's interested in this topic to view. And NACOL being the National Association for Civilian Oversight of Law Enforcement. And it really goes through the best practices of oversight and accountability. It goes into the importance and purpose of them, which I think is really greatly misunderstood in our community. The perception that oversight and accountability keeps officers from wanting to work in the Burlington has been very disturbing to me. And I think that comes from a lack of understanding in the public. And sometimes on the city council as a commissioner, I was very concerned about incorrect information that was being given to the public, no matter how inadvertently I was concerned about some of the attacks that were made against the commission. So I'd like to provide some documentation that will help provide some education so that this joint committee can move forward in coming up with a best possible solution for Burlington. One of the items in NACOL documents and in any conversation currently about oversight and accountability is that there are no two bodies in the country that are exactly alike. So I know the term previously was thrown around as an experiment. Well, there are best practices and there are goals that are common, that are shared. And I have some information about New Haven, Connecticut and what they do. And I think they would be a great case study. One of the commissioners in New Haven, Connecticut was a speaker at the Flynn event a couple of months ago. That was very interesting that people attended and was also someone who was on Obama's committee regarding the 21st century policing. So I was really impressed with her conversation, her talking about what their commission was doing and how they worked with their police department and hiring and many other things. And I started studying the New Haven department. So I'm just going to put out that information and hopefully we can we can share it review. And I think it has a lot of great information and ideas and I think makes this less scary for some people. This scares people because they think that this will chase away police officers. And I always come back to, well, what type of police officers do we want working in Burlington? That's what I wanted to say for now. Thank you very much for listening. Thank you, Councilor Grant. I will say that I see a couple of the people on the attendee side. Is anyone on the attendee side that wants to be promoted to being a panelist? Please go ahead use your raise hand function and we can just do that. If anyone raises their hand and we can move people over to the panelist side. And folks who are here from the public by no means should feel obligated to make a comment at this point in time. I totally respect that folks may be here still and listening and information gathering mode. But Jordan, I mentioned we may come to you next. Appreciate your being here on behalf of the Mayor's Office. So I don't know if any comments at this point in time. I do. Okay. Thank you. I am, as the Mayor is approaching this work in process, we are going to approach the drafting of a charter change and commission and ordinance and hoping that the draft will include, we've established three principles that we hope will guide the work in this process. And I'll share those with the committee. And I know that the Mayor plans to share a memo with the full committee and commission about these goals for the process. But these are the three overarching principles that we've developed that we hope will guide this work. So the first one is that we should consider codifying in ordinance and charter the police commission to new authorities. So the things that they've already been doing through the police commission policy with respect to reviewing campaigns really formalized that through ordinance and potential that charter as necessary. And then as we formalize those police commission responsibilities and authorities, we also need to clarify and establish the procedural justice protections to ensure that officers are treated fairly. And then the third and last principle is that we should address the existing charter that undermines the Mayor's ability to reform the four charter duties, which is to be the Chief Executive of the city and to be the Chief Peace Officer of the city and avoid creating new conflicts within the city's governance. So because from our perspective, the existing charter is the way the existing charter is established where the Chief has sole authority over the police department in a way that is really removed from the Mayor is problematic. I hope that that was addressed through this process. So those are the three principles. And then there are more specific ways that we think those principles could be achieved that we will share in writing, hopefully in advance of the next thing. Thank you so much for the opportunity to share that. Thanks, Jordan. Andy, I see you have your hand raised, but just briefly but before turning to you, just because there's a couple of counselors that asking questions of acting Chief Mirad and perhaps the best opportunity to engage him and the members of the department. And first of all, Chief, I want to express my gratitude for being here and being at the table as we continue to discuss this issue. And I don't know if you can prepare perhaps to answer those questions and by no means feel obligated to give the answer, but you heard a couple of questions because I would confess to the department. I don't know if you have any initial thoughts as it may help guide some of the other comments that we care as well. Well, I heard a question from Counsel Shannon around what it is that we currently do. I think that's a question we're exploring in a way that system currently works, but I also don't want to take up too much time with that explanation. I have, you know, there's a lot of it that's available online to the public right now. We have a flow chart, two flow charts that are available online that show both the progression of citizen complaints and the progression of use of force incident and how that gets reviewed, which both overlap and clearly use of force is a significant component of our concerns around citizen complaints, although by no means is it even nearly the lion's share of the citizen complaints we get. We get about 45 citizen complaints a year, 15 of those, a third of them are invalid on their face. They are for places like Burlington, Iowa or Burlington, Ontario. They are clearly driven by mental health issues, or they are mistaken incidents of people offering a criminal complaint via the citizen complaint portal. So they're saying, my wallet got stolen. Can you do something about it? The other 30, we take very seriously and every single one of those goes to the police commission. The police commission is able to review and discuss every single one of those. I don't want to go further into the flow chart here, although I have both of them, so you can't read it, but there's a flow chart here of how a citizen complaint comes in and what it comes in, and then there's a slightly more complex flow chart of the use of force, and what happens when it's used forcibly if that happens. So I would love the opportunity to share that information, and perhaps I'll do an email rather than talking about it here. The next question that the Councilor Shannon asked and the Councilor Hightower also echoed the discussion about how would we engage the department, and I think it's a terrific idea to move beyond me and to move beyond the BPOA board, although I think the BPOA is an important participant. I'm glad to participate, but how do we get other officers? It is a survey could be a method to do that, some sort of instrument, but we have to know what our questions are, and right now I don't think we're anywhere near that. I think that the Mayor has just articulated some really important guiding points. We have a lot of history, all the materials that you shared, Councilor Hightower, so I printed them out. I had to use the heavy duty stapler to get through it, so there's a lot of material here, and what are the specific questions we're asking, because before we attempt to engage them at least through a survey instrument, you need to know that. With regard to the BPOA, I am typing an email to the BPOA right now, saying that they should be at the table for this as they were for the discussions around the CNA report and as they were for the community review policing practices that began from then Councilor Roof's recommendation in 2019. I'm hopeful that they will agree to do that, but as Councilor Shannon also mentioned, they're they're they're they're stretched, but this is important. So that's all I've got. Thanks for the opportunity to talk. Thanks. Yeah. I just have a question. When we're talking about oversight, are we talking about the police department or are we only talking about sworn officers or just wondered? I mean, my sense is that it's about the operation of the department, and so where if that could be CSOs, those are not sworn officers, those could be the CSLs, they could be dispatchers. That's not to say that they will be, and I think that the comments that were made by Councilor Hightower in terms of wanting us to focus, you know, it's going to be really good, but I do not see our charge as being limited unless we decide it is appropriate to limit it so that we can get to what we need to do. But I just wanted that clarification because I think it's important to recognize BPOA does not represent everybody in the department. So if we're talking about everybody in the department, I want to be sure that that we. That is why, you know, asked me, it was part of the part of the invite list, right, and will continue to be and have to do as good a job. I'm expecting to have lots of people here. So you obviously have to do a better job of reaching out because they're big players. Well, I think it's also reflective of just how many hours everybody's working, how thin everyone is stretched as well. And I would just add that that's a question that I hope it is resolved through this process. It was one that's come out as we've expanded the number of roles in the police departments that are not sworn officers. And presently she, if I'm wrong, if a complaint came through the complaint portal regarding an employee that wasn't a sworn officer, the process for addressing that is not established in the same way that it is for a sworn police officer. I don't think that's the case. I think so. So you're absolutely correct that there are some growing pains going on with this as the ratio of the department changes from one that was predominantly sworn and still is and still will be but one that has a larger and larger component of professional staff. Because of this I just had this conversation with Chief Shirling and Chief Shirling understood as I did and as other presidents did that every employee in the police department was under the aegis of the police chief and so far as dealing with discipline, etc. However, the changing ratios may cause a re-visitation of that. But for the time being, yes, dispatchers parking. I would want to make is that maybe you don't want to get to the details of this now but that if the maybe the complaint goes to the police commission but the police commission wouldn't necessarily advise on discipline for that employee that wasn't a sworn officer. We're currently dealing with the CSO complaint right now. I complained about about some distractions that a CSO took. We've done we've certainly done it with dispatchers and I too have had internally generated complaints against dispatchers that required discipline and that discipline was discussed with the police commission. And we follow the exact same rules that we follow. The agreement that we arrived at in 2020 it was worked on it had been built earlier it had been it was work done in years prior but it was largely in 2020 done by then police commissioner Sherry Hart and interim then interim police chief Jen Morrison. I finished that work with the police commission and signed it with the police commission in August of 2020. That document is titled um the it is titled an employee I'm sorry I'm trying to find it before you and I don't want to but it's a role of role of the Republican police commissioner reviewing complaints and beats PD employees. So okay sorry no no it's I think if there's any common theme I'm hearing as far as that we have a need for many first very directed information gathering at our meetings to come so I think that'll be a part of it and the two PDFs that you just mentioned. I follow you ask that they be put up on board dogs so people have access to them. And so I wish I recommended earlier because there's a third which is on also on the website which is this role of the police commission in reviewing complaints against PD employees. And that document too should be circulated in the same way as the documents you just added. Great we'll get that up on board dogs as well. I see Andy you've been very patient so I want to make sure we turn to you and then councilor Graham will come to you and then see if there's uh the extent to which and I'm sure there will be uh other members of the public that want to comment. So Andy thanks very much for your patience. Yeah thank you um appreciate you bringing everybody to the table on this. I've been following this as a union member at Howard Center since 2020. I'm really excited to see that there is some energy to to get something to change the current situation that we're in. It's abundantly clear that if this has been a three-year-long pressure from the public um that that obviously something has to be done I think that being thoughtful about that that's what that's what my co-workers, fellow members here, have have requested that people be thoughtful about it. You know a lot of work has been put in over three years to be incredibly thoughtful as well so I'm excited to kind of review with most folks that are going to be coming to this table about what exactly that's been. And I also think that really what Zariah was saying earlier to be looking at the specific pieces first that you know that you're going to have to spend more time working on at the beginning is going to be important and to make sure as Milo Grant said to explain that clearly to people and make sure that's understood well. You know I work at Howard Center so this does impact the police this is also going to impact us. We have been looking at what has been going on. For three years we're invested to see that there is a good solution made and our brothers and sisters over at 1343 asked me 1343. I'm hoping to touch base with them as well so that we can all be on the same page about what it is that folks in Burlington need. We serve people in Burlington that's what my job is I'm also incredibly overworked right now everyone at Howard Center is and I'm really excited to see who's going to come to the table to collaborate on this because this is incredibly important. Thank you Andy and really appreciate you and members of your union being part of the discussion. Councillor Grant you have a comment then we'll turn to the other folks here. Thank you I just wanted to make a quick comment that yes the police commission reviews complaints but that doesn't necessarily mean that the police commission agrees with department determinations and that's that's going to be part of this process in terms of how do we address those differences in the best interest of residents who are complainants and that I've said it many times before and I'll just add it again it's not always about punishment sometimes it's about an acknowledgement that maybe reviews reviewing training apology how things could have been handled better to improve community engagement and community trust etc thank you. Thank you. Why don't we now turn here in the room is there anyone else that would like to make a comment or statement yeah. Yeah so Amy I think this is probably a bit of an echo maybe which I'm sorry what's your last name maybe uh Mel Mowski. So it's a bit of an echo I think of what you were sharing but just really asking the question like is the extent of plans for public input these meetings or is part of these meetings planning methods for more public input so really how are we getting a rigorous quote unquote robust public input that's diverse that's inclusive and that's really shared transparently I'm thinking child care translation meetings meeting folks where they're at not public form or meetings like this that are really inaccessible and like I know this meeting is put together really quickly and I'm always passionate towards humans but I just want to name that like for starters I don't think this meeting was on first form and it's right now conflict with an NBA meeting that's about public safety that my neighbors had to choose between so and then the second thing I would say is and I don't think this is a wild thing to say I think a lot of people are agreement on this I can count the number of times the mayor has said that this needs to happen but don't believe the police chief should have sole authority so let me really clear that from the perspective of people for police accountability that end goal should be a target change and anything other than that feels performative thank you hey jammy anyone else here in the room yeah I'd like to say it but yeah please so my name is Dave Maher thank you for having me to be here today and speak I've lived in the Milton area for almost 50 years and I currently live in the new north end must say I have a lot of stuff on your plate coming up to deal with any improvement in police oversight so I have a suggestion that I hope will be helpful my suggestion is to create a peer review board in the police department which be the first step in addressing any excessive use excessive value support complaints the board might consist of several senior police officers maybe human resources and maybe a police senior representative the board would review the incident and pose this pretty action of warranted this being the form of binding decision or a recommendation of the police chief whatever action would be taken could be appealed to the city's oversight board once established I think this has several benefits or some other concepts the first is is that's always best to solve a problem as close as possible to the source that way the people who are most familiar with the problem come up with a solution it's a business best practice now I know a lot of people are skeptical about having the police police themselves but here we have a new police chief the new police department to some extent and I see an evidence that the training has been improved so I think it's possible do this as a first step the second benefit uh is that the disciplinary action would have been reviewed by a number of individuals experiencing police work so that way has more meat behind it as opposed to the current process and this should reduce number of incidents that are then reviewed by the oversight board I think the skulls will possibly be implemented more quickly they're the oversight board it might not be the charge to change depending on how it's implemented so this is just a concept hope you'll consider uh it obviously needs some more detail that's like the worth thinking about and thank you thank you very much thank you Dave you know I'm feeling on the spot are you are you okay I don't have anything to add but okay I'm glad you said great perfect um anyone else online who has another comment at this point Tom so I think I saw your hand raised it's Jessica or Jessica I don't know if you would yeah oh sorry I realized I didn't know Jessica I don't think I have a chance to take it okay no I don't have anything to add at this point okay thank you um great and Ben you know this because I texted you and I think Sarah mentioned it but um I do think I guess just because we haven't discussed it too much I do wonder if we want to focus on disciplinary in the next meeting not to tell the chairs how to do their job if and then I know that the um the citizen process focused a lot on citizen complaints which makes sense but I also know that in the CNA report there was a lot of reference to the ways that we're not doing best practice and internal affairs so I wonder if we want to consider that as well and I would really like if um Karen Durfrey from HR were here again I think to give us a better sense of first level second level complaints how they're handled um for um non-sworn officers across the city um and how we and I think because I think that is the best I think we should try to make I believe a goal of ours should be to try to make this more comparable to um other city departments and so I would greatly appreciate if she were part of that process thank you great Andy's your hand raised from before just a good charm or I know this is a new hand right so why don't we let me go to your new hand and then I'm sorry I will come to you okay great thank you um yeah no I just really want to emphasize that workers from Howard Center feel like we have an abundance of oversight um and we take serious precautions in terms of the folks that we are called in to provide services for and serve and support um I have heard from many many members that work at Howard Center that it is to have an independent oversight feels incredibly necessary at this point in terms of the safety of community members in Burlington and I also know I'm not saying anything new at all um but I just really want to make them abundantly clear that we work in Burlington we are getting priced out of Burlington but some of us still get a chance to live there um and that's where we serve a huge chunk of the people that we provide services to and I think that both workers would like to feel like there's a way to have accountability when there are instances in which workers are interacting with police officers and I think that clients have also expressed that they would like to see that as well so overall an independent oversight board with authority is incredibly essential at this point um so just my two cents whether that becomes an ordinance or a charter that's up to y'all to decide thanks Andy and it's good to look sorry yes thank you thank you everyone I've been thinking notes here as well um I think the only thing I didn't speak to right now since I haven't actually had time to go over all the attachments you said I did start working on them um is since we are talking about the police commission that I've heard everybody speak to that it seems like there is whether an expansion of the role or reiteration of what we're already doing I suggest that one is that perhaps you may consider having one of the commissioners or several commissioners I don't know if Commissioner Noski wants to chime in on this as well be a regular member of this committee or at least be invited on a regular basis not just one presentation from us I feel like we are very integral to the process and our voice should be on the table pretty much I just like in my opinion and that's something I think we can discuss with the commission too in a more proactive and regular manner not just a one-time thing so that would be my opinion also I would seriously like the counselors to consider uh the and Councillor Berkman has already touched on that the matter of resource so that's something to think about as you expand our role or change it thank you Sarah a couple things in our discussions around the role of police commission and I want us to have a focus question on my opinion I view the police commission as an independent oversight body so I just want to toss that question out there because I think we've got to have a discussion is it some people feel it's not I have to feel this to have that discussion the other thing though I really want to be after in 2020-21 we spent a tremendous amount of time on the cna report and a parallel community engagement we fired a consultant really went out to get opinions of the community and I I want us not to forget that we spent a ton of time and resources and work on that and so maybe one of us can synopsize some of that one in the cna finding in particular not the whole 154 recommendations but are there some things in that that we should know about that relate to the topic in particular of discipline um because I think that'd be helpful and then on the community engagement side you know we spent a lot of time to try to reach out to a really broad array of folks what what did they say what did they suggest we're not going to have I believe the time and resources to reproduce the whole community engagement a process that we went through the year and a half ago but we should see if there's anything in that report that we should be looking at so unless there's other comments I think that may be a good segue to our next agenda item which is to talk about sort of next steps and where we go from there on that I can envision one of those next steps being some more information gathering around what cna did and what the consultants did for of course the last couple years but before turning to that question of next steps are there any other general comments outside of that or gene is is is you're thinking that that would be a good segue into talking about those next steps I think we should go and talk about that these next steps okay great there we go so we have about 20 minutes left here until we hit 730 and I am wondering Soraya has proposed I happen to agree that we should start with discipline and it's not the only thing that we'll get away with but and I'm wondering if you have given a little bit more thought given some thought as to what that would mean for us to do at our next meeting yeah I have I do think that again I think coming asking I don't and I don't want to put her on the spot but I do think she knows this is coming because we talked about it in the HR meeting and because I know our next wait is our next meeting only four days away or is that the south okay so she'll have time so I do think that having someone I'm happy to give a presentation or I don't know if Karen's still on she's not but I know that Karen and I can easily give a presentation on the cna report and I'm definitely happy to give a report on the Talitha outcomes or at least to share that as materials so people have a chance to review them I think Karen giving a better understanding of how things how discipline happens in the rest of the city so that we get that overview will be a good point to start the discussion and then I think we should after we get that presentation I think we should come to some kind of decision about who what folks we want to focus on if it's just the sworn officers if it's the whole BPD so that would be my recommendation but that I've been I'm not going to say I've spent noodles of time on this okay so then and I do see Milo's hand raised just so you know yeah sorry Milo go ahead no I just wanted to piggyback that Zariah maybe you and I can work together I was also part of that joint committee the police commission and the city council public safety committee I went I went to almost every public engagement that there was during this process I also represent the police commission at the city council public safety committee where there was a review of the cna recommendations I do recommend for any city counselor that has not had a chance to review those recommendations in full that at least read through it once because I think it's very important with regards to this process thank you so much John um so as you know I cannot be at the next meeting right so I would appreciate it if the next meeting was primarily informational gathering the various pieces of information that we've talked about um as well as um yeah gathering public input as well as we have been charged with that I'm not just looking at the public input that was previously none because honestly I think that this has been an evolving topic and people's view isn't necessarily the same as what was so I think it is important for this committee to do what we can with regards to public engagement so whatever happens at the next meeting I assume everything's being videotaped and I will participate that way okay great uh personally my sense is that the next meeting should be dedicated to uh information gathering and I'd like for us to try to come to some consensus as to what that information should be I'm mindful of the fact that I believe our next meeting which is scheduled for May 23rd flex with a police commission meeting that evening if I'm not mistaken so uh so I I think for that reason as well it needs to be an informational gathering meeting for the committee and no doubt a continuing perhaps to gather even more information after that in no small part from the police police commission as well and I agree with your points I should turn to a lot of that police commission obviously needs to be an integral part of this as we move forward so if folks are generally at agreement and speak out if you feel differently that that our next meeting should be dedicated to uh are collecting additional information by having some sort of dedicated agenda items should we come up with a list and we've heard from some folks about the type of information they would like to hear we've heard some about um uh CNA report and uh the Talitha consultants um I could go back for my list here of the other items for us to collect information from and heard from the folks you know Sarah you were mentioning some sort of items as well yeah John well we have a website for this committee because I think it'd be helpful to have a landing spot for all these various pieces of information for ducks as we know is hard to go back and find the documents that we know are there and so we um I'm sorry John I can do this I'll figure it out it is essentially it is it's essential actually um and you look at the work that we did on all which is having the CNA report and the Talitha report in addition to the items that are on our agenda as well as all the items that um that we're going to be asking for and the video of each of our meetings on that site the chief referenced a number of things that are available on their website um that's probably also okay so I just want to say having a website having it the translation the experience that we've had with um CEDO in terms of the all resident voting was amazing there were never any questions that we weren't doing a job to reach out that also included reaching out to the trusted voice community voices group and some other folks so that we want to consider that so um I I just want to second that and in terms of engagement I mean I've always seen the commission as being absolutely necessary all the all the time here you know I mean you're not on the joint committee but you're sitting at the table because you're the focus of so much of what we're looking at um so do you understand maybe the commission should have a conversation and a point two of you or I was saying about it you know to come right away and really relay liaison so I agree with you I mean I think that having the next meeting focus on discipline having those parts of the other reports that were already done is is a part of that the current system should we should have a conversation about that uh the proposals that are on the table and that are part of our charge we should have a conversation that's part of the information gathering you know may or put forward in a proposal related to discipline that's you know information gathering is to know what that is uh there were you know comments made on the uh the draft ordinance that um were made by the commission and those are highlighted there and then the public particularly if we post it up and send comments in we we have got also um although it was defeated it is part of the packet the uh the two oversight models one that was viewed by the mayor and one that the people brought forward and so there are components of discipline that becomes part of our information gathering and understanding what those are about and why that they were promoted you know is that just part of the process of gathering the information so that's what I would see us doing the you know and obviously I think Zariah has hit it also with the getting um the HR director derpy to come and talk about the rest of the city and I mean they're they're made or they're there is more out there but I think that that's a lot of stuff that we would just go through that I can just ask Claire a question I'm trying to understand the I and much just so that I can work with director derpy and preparing for the an afternoon meeting can you help me understand the rationale for understanding how discipline works for other city employees is that that's that's a ask right understand how it was for other other city employees and and struggling to understand the rationale for doing that just because we determined that police officers of police department because they use force who are different and are subject to different disciplinary standards so I'm just struggling to understand the action for could we have Zariah and and or Milo if they're there talk about that since there was that raised that directly can I just um say the like for myself um I think it's uh important to understand the discipline structure of the city and understand how the police are different and it's just part of the bigger picture to to look at not necessarily that we want to go to the discipline model that everyone has but understand I think it's helpful just to understand what it is for our bigger picture of you I do too and um we're talking about a whole range of discipline and I think after we understand it all there's certainly issues around use of force are very different than most of the other disciplinary issues but there's a lot of stuff in between that will be helpful to understand and I think it's my sense that perhaps at a lower level I want to call it that understanding how you know what happens if another city employee is rude or discriminatory to somebody how is that typically handled so it's just sort of I think getting the context of how that works and how is it different yeah and I think to add to that um I well one again I just want to call out that it doesn't feel like our processes in the police department based on the cna report are best practice across the board so I think at least getting them if they're not at up to where they are in the rest of the city is kind of the minimum of what we should be doing so when we say that they're different I don't know if I don't know if we that means that we say that we want it to be less defined or more like less clear is essentially what the cna report was calling it and putting a lot of the onus on police officers in terms of like I don't know folks read the cna report in depth but one of the things was that in order to have an internal complaint it was almost the onus of on individual officers to do an investigation before they really brought the complaint forward which isn't that's just not what should be happening and so I think baseline whether it's external to the city or within you know city staff having like having this like the same level of processes that we have for the rest of the city I think is going to be important I think we can always make the decision if it's appropriate for the police department once we know what that is but I think making that in a vacuum is not I don't think that serves us well and I actually think that having some consistency across city staff will help HR a lot too and will be great and then I also yeah I think that Karen just also has a little bit more insight into like how how things have been handled when they do arise to the level of the HR director. I just want to say I strongly agree with what was just said because when we look at some of these things that are current practice we have to understand that some of these things that are current practice are not best practice and that has that's caused at times conversations to be adversarial for lack of a better word thank you. So if that's been answered I have their two points that I want to bring up one is around engagement I referenced the work that the Charter Change Committee did with CEDO on all resident voting we're in a sort of a different position then I think that we then that committee and that issue in some fashion I think it is possible that we are going to need some funds or that funds would be helpful for us there are still one of these in the councilor initiative the city council initiative and this is clearly a priority for the city council I don't think that an allocation I think there was last note from CAO she had $40,000 I know the Duke is asking for $5,000 for symposium on the burning of biomass I don't think that $5,000 at least as an initial ask would be too much to ask for to help us get translation services get outreach into the community possibly engage CEDO staff they had money to do that in that in their budget but this is not their budget there so you know maybe RIV so I want to raise that and the other thing in terms of discipline that I hadn't thought about but which is clear and I'm not exactly sure can and what people should be raising this but the whole question of qualified immunity is a cloud or is a as a factor over the use of force and the way that officers act and I'm I have a personal opinion about qualified immunity but it clearly in terms of information gathering and I don't really know it's how it has manifested so you know in terms of our culture our practice I know that it is out there in the world and has had dramatic impacts on policing in the United States and is why it was such a big topic of conversation and study in the legislature last year so it's something whether it's too much for us to chew at the next meeting but I do think that you cannot look at police discipline without looking at the role that qualified immunity plays so I want to just get that on the table. I'm not gonna lie I would prefer we didn't touch qualified immunity to begin with and again if we can if this becomes a rolling basis of things that we look at I agree that it touches and I agree it's an important issue and I I I just want us to get I want us to get something across and past and I think if we save that to the end that would serve us well or if we because I think it is a really complicated issue and there's a lot of state in our play that we're going to have to work with if we tackle that and I don't want us to get too bogged down in it. I appreciate that Tim. I just hope getting back to the information gathering and I recognize we have a long list already but I have two thoughts for what are they worth. One is what I mentioned the CNA and best practices with respect to internal investigations and I just wanted to note that the Vermont State at least has an internal affairs office and it might be worth learning more about how their internal affairs division operates. I'm not aware of another law enforcement agency in Vermont that has one and then the second issue is this maybe is something that I can learn on my own through city resources how fire department handles disciplinary issues. I'm interested in learning about that but perhaps that's something I can do on my own. Great. If I would agree to that. I'm sorry I want to throw one more thing on the file. The the state oversight body which I can never remember the name of that council. Yes the Bill Sorrell chairs I think it would be helpful to hear from them and consider what their role might be in in our oversight. So my focus on here sounds like there's broad consensus here with respect to getting an invitation out to HR director Derby with respect to current disciplinary processes for other city employees I would propose that we put that on the agenda or try to put that on the agenda for a meeting on May 23rd and would be happy to ask director Derby to invite anyone else to come along with her that that she would like on that point. I think another point that we've heard is with respect to CNA to believe the consultants. So I think I heard you volunteer yourself with respect to that report but if you have any thoughts on that and we could we could ask Karen as well. Okay thumbs up. Are you good with my asking Karen as well. See if she wants to come in to speak to it okay and Joe I know you did a bit of an artwork on that as well so we'd be happy to have you come in too. I think for our meeting on May 30th which won't happen much longer after the 23rd. Obviously we want the police commission to be again an integral part of this process going forward but I think it would be helpful to hear from the police commission particularly if you're sick we know she's able to make it and and Councilor Grant you as well sort of folks who were on the commission when this context language was reviewed last to provide feedback on that language and your and your old thoughts on a body on this on the May 30th here. I think we've heard a lot about sort of what are other entities doing so under that umbrella I'm on State Police for Moncriminal Justice Council and personally I would like to hear hear a lot about what other communities are doing about this as well. Councilor Grant you pointed out that you I said some links about what some other cities and communities are doing I know NACL obviously you know that this is this is their job here is what other communities are doing so I'd be curious know whether or not we could talk about this out of the meeting folks have connections with NACL representatives who may very well be willing to come and speak to this committee as well I personally be interested in that but the purposes of building the agenda on the 23rd I think we have current disciplinary processes as an agenda item and a review of sort of the CNA report to meet the consultants I think that would actually take up a good chunk of our meeting but the folks in the committee want to add any other agenda item to those two right there okay so why don't we plan on that and then Kotla and Jessica I think I was emailing to Stephanie earlier today about I'm sorry about the conflict on the 23rd but on the 30th I think it would be great to more formal presentation to begin and continue the discussion going forward with the commission yeah this is in the minute though I just think we really need we have so much work to do we're now going to move to September I would like us to set up at least three months of meetings which is a god-awful task but so we don't conflict with police commission or any other things and we get our war in first so our meetings become a priority so I'm looking at poor Joe there but I just think we should you know we take him off the calendar but getting him on account would do this I think maybe why don't Jean and I connect and then Ron dates by Ken and then we'll sort of start there and get a universe dates and we could set out I despise doodle balls but we can set down the doodle balls maybe that's a better idea okay does that work and we can also talk about engagement which we don't have to do in again a big but yeah why don't we put that on the agenda for the 23rd as well and I think this meeting dates the forums are what are what other forums and and and resources again you know because it happens with people and things that require money so well speaking of which yeah we did conflict with another forum on police oversight that's going on right now hosted by the wards 5 and 6 npa's that started at 6 30 it's going to 8 30 so folks have not gotten a fill of of the oversight accountability discussion you can have a tune in to the wards 6 npa probably right now I have one so it sounds like since we none of us will be here on the 23rd um we will confer in our meeting on the 23rd as to what our position is in terms of liaison and having a liaison um and bring it to the table on the 30th am I understanding that correct I think that'd be perfect people agree with that I don't know if you're asking do you have anything to add to that do you think that's workable I think that sounds good Jen thanks and of course we've been looking forward to your substantive thoughts on the proposals that were have already been put out at the table right I was thinking more on the 30th would be yes the starting point yeah yeah we have yep thank you thank you Gene or any other committee members any other thoughts no I think that will you and I will work to make sure that our engagement is robust I can't get over that I need to draft that resolution so we get needed I mean to give it back to that resolution didn't draft that was it didn't vote for that resolution I'd like robust okay we'll use it a lot okay um all right well I appreciate everyone's contributions tonight I appreciate people who came here in person and online and then I think without seeing any other business all the meeting adjourned without any objection and we'll plan on seeing folks on the 23rd John it's excellent vacation we'll have the meeting recorded you know you can watch it it's good for a long time really well I will be on it