 First off we're gonna go around and just quickly introduce ourselves so if you could share your names pronouns if you're comfortable and what ward you live in that would be great and so once we're gonna do popcorn so once you say it like introduce yourself send it over to someone else so I will start hi everyone my name is Hannah King I am in ward eight and I am on the wards one and eight steering committee and I am going to send it over to Jonathan hi I'm Jonathan Chappell Sokol I live on north prospect street in ward one I'm on the wards one eight steering committee and I'll pass it to Cheryl Green hi I'm Cheryl Green and I live in ward one I live in Burlington co-housing and glad to be here tonight and why don't we go over to Carol hi this is Carol Livingston I'm in ward one um and I also am on the ward one and eight steering committee I'll pass it on to Jeffrey hello um Jeffrey Desana probably the newest one here just moved in a few weeks ago and my fiancee Ashley will be listening in as well um pass it on to who else can I see uh Wendy hi I'm Wendy Koenig I'm the director of government relations for the University of Vermont I'll pass it to my colleague Joe Spidel hi good evening Joe Spidel he his pronouns um I work with Wendy in community relations I live in ward three and I will pass it on to Sarah who I keep running into in the last month I think I've seen him three or four times hi hi um Sarah flash ward one I'm also um Burlington co-housing and let's see who can I pass it to have we done Lisa yet okay how about Lisa Kingsbury thanks Sarah um my name is Lisa Kingsbury I use she her pronouns I'm here on behalf of the University I work um in planning design and construction I'm the associate director of planning thanks for having us tonight and I will pass it to Gene Hopkins hi yes I'm here at co-housing in ward one uh also and um let's see we're busy with uh legal women voters of course so um we have um you know concerns about um you know gun safety too in this town so um might speak on that later okay I'll pass this on to let's see is Hannah is Tom Derenthal spoken I'm here uh my name is Tom Derenthal I live on Nash Place that's ward one and I'm also on the ward one eight steering committee and I'll pass it off to Megan there uh I'm Megan Tuttle I'm the planning director for the city and I live in ward seven sorry I forgot the instructions um I will pass it to um Karen Karen Long have you introduced yourself I haven't thanks Megan good to see you I'm Karen Long and I live on Henry Street um my husband Michael will also be joining the meeting and we've been here I don't know 38 years I think something like that very long thank you I at this point I feel well I guess I can look at all the names I don't really know um Allie Allie House thanks Karen um hi my name's Allie I use uh she her pronouns I um the social worker in the community with Blunt um I'm in ward eight and I'm running for city council um popcorn Glenn all right muted hi Glenn McCrae and Holly Shanner McCrae I'm Mansfield Avenue ward one and uh pass it on to my colleague uh Brian Pine on the Burlington Aging Council among other things thanks Glenn um I'm Brian Pine I am uh director of the city's community and economic development office and I'm uh way back I was a ward one resident but I've been a ward three resident for the last uh 30 plus years and I'm not sure but I I'll pick an old friend Julie Springer thanks Brian Julie Springer ward one she her pronouns and I will pass it on to um Joe have you been called yet you have uh uh oh Keith oh hi thank you Julie I'm Keith Pillsbury I live on University Terrace in ward eight and I'm currently a member of the ward eight and one one steering committee I'll I'll pass it on to Bob Gutmann Rob Gutmann thanks Keith uh I'm Rob Gutmann and I live on North William Street in ward one and I too am running for city council and I'm thrilled to be here with you all tonight and I'm looking hard and deep and I think all the corn's been popped I think we have to go to Kaya and then okay everyone my name's Kaya I use your pronouns I'm working with Gail in the office of student community relations this semester so she just invited me to join the meeting so thank you and we can go to Angie the Angie Chapel Circle I live in ward one great thank you and then Maddie hi I'm Maddie I am a resident of ward eight I live on Hunger for Terrace I've lived there for 40 years thank you Maddie and then Fletcher I don't think you've gone nope I'm Fletcher and uh I live in ward one great thank you and then there's folks that are attendees so I'm just going to go through and ask you to unmute and if you feel comfortable introducing yourself great if not you can just ignore my request Linda go into you first hi it's Linda Rizvi live on Hunger for Terrace he pronouns she her and uh so thanks for having missed MPI tonight thank you and then we're going to go to Susan hi it's Bobby Tony I'm Susan Bichani's husband and we live on Fletcher place in ward one nice to meet everybody thank you and then we're going to go to Caitlyn hi I'm Caitlyn Halperd I live on the corner of uh Loomis in Mansfield thank you and then to Nina hi my name is Nina I'm a Susan oh I think you're muted sorry hi I'm Nina and my husband and I live on East Avenue he's lived here for now 60 years I've lived here only 30 some of those but we're very interested in being active in the community and helping in any way we can great thank you and then Maria Maria Shank before and I'm so muted well you're you're good okay all right um I live on North William Street ward one and I am happy to be here thank you and then I believe our last neighbor is Cindy hi I'm Cindy Koch I live on East Avenue and I'm looking forward to this meeting I was active in the NPA for a while and quite a while actually and took a break and I'm looking forward to getting back involved more and look forward to a very full meeting tonight great thank you I think that's everyone I don't know if I missed anyone but um thank you all for being here should be an exciting meeting now we're going to go into speak out if you would like to participate in speak out please indicate by either using the raise hand function or physically just raise your hand to give me a heads up does anyone want to participate and speak out Karen I see your hands up first so you can start thank you um this is an announcement also but on Friday on February 11th 5 30 on channel 17 there will be a one hour discussion a program with CEDO and DPW and a couple of residents that are going to discuss the Great Street Main Street um proposal using TIF funds and I did want to share that I did go to the February first meeting about this and there were around 20 participants which is very few compared to the 45,000 residents we have um I believe it's a concept and not a plan they can't really give a the studying on this went half it happened in 2016 when we talked about Great Streets and I did go to those meetings I'm not comfortable with signing over 25.9 million in TIF funds for this plan until it's more baked um there were people there that discussed St. Paul Street so you know we use five million into funds to redo those streets and these were some of the comments of the residents there they felt it was not safe for bicycling anymore um but the plows can't clear away the snow there are kind of like bump out rain gardens so it makes it really difficult um for that uh in the summer the rain guards sorry rain gardens are not maintained well um one gentleman said that he felt it was a really waste of money because he doesn't see that it's vibrant and there's very little pedestrian traffic so I really um I caution people about you know investing 30 million on Main Street um I am not in favor of TIF because it does divert revenue from the schools uh 75 percent of the school tax money is diverted and 100 percent of the municipal tax it is very complicated our counselors say that to me um Laura Wheelock from DPW I mean it's a hard thing to understand and my husband and I have been digging very deep into it and I really think you should think hard look up TIF just look it up google it and you'll see TIF was developed for blighted areas it's used to stimulate development that won't otherwise happen I do not feel Main Street is blighted nor is our downtown and don't forget what happened with the pit development doesn't always go as planned thank you okay and then we'll go to Tom yeah I just uh wanted to ask people that we have an upcoming agenda item on the for the candidates for city council and school uh school board and if you have questions um please ask them um when we get to that part of the agenda I was hoping that there'd be a chat function where it could capture questions for people that uh would otherwise not like to voice them but we don't have that so the only way that your question will be asked is if you speak up okay thank you Tom um last call for speak out is anyone else Susan I see your hand is raised you should be able to unmute all right it's Bobby Cheney I'm using Susan's computer just want to bring up the ongoing project the proposal behind our houses on Fletcher Place it's a very dangerous design it is to be built atop a gully head failure which is a prelude to a landslide I asked uh council person Zoraia High Tower recording in progress project uh she didn't seem to know what it was I'm interested to hear what Rob Gutman uh might have to say about it when we speak later thanks very much okay and then Carol your hand is raised hi just a quick shout out to the old east end who ran a amazing winter lude um this weekend I hope some of you had a chance to to be part of that um really really wonderful community event down here on shamanica park with skiing and snowshoeing and um hot chocolate and a fire and just really really wonderful there'll be um more events coming up so keep an eye out um for those fliers that might appear in your mailboxes or on front porch form thank you great thank you is there anyone else final call I'm not seeing any other hands so I am going to pass it over to Keith to take us to the housing panel good evening the housing panel was designed by the npa steering committee when in December our two of our three counselors told us that the most frequent questions they had concerns they heard were on housing so we we decided to have a panel discussion between city leaders and the uvm people involved with planning and so we've invited them tonight the questions that that we are going to ask were all formulated by put together by the steering committee um and I will go through those questions and then hopefully it would save time for you to react to give after you've gotten the information the thing that came up as that's just recently came up come up is that the uvm is that the plan is in a plan uh going to the planning committee for a project on trinity college campus we will ask them at towards the end of the questions if they would be willing to I believe they have some information some pictures or slides they want to talk to us so that we can um have them present that we will try to stay within the 50 minutes and and give you at least a 10 to 50 minutes of response to their questions so um they've introduced themselves but basically who's on our panel are uh Wendy Conan from the uh from uvm joe spidell from uvm alisa kingsbury from uvm from the city is brian pine and megan tuttle i'm going to go through with a sort of the context of why why we are doing this our ward one and ward eight neighborhood planning assembly is a grassroots neighborhood organization that encourage and engage resident participation to make our neighborhood and our city a great place to live our mpa are committed to inclusive equitable livable and multi-generational sustainability in recent years we've become increasingly concerned about the quality the quantity quality and cost of housing in the east district we believe our neighborhoods in the east district are unaffordable for most working families and completely out of the question for new americans this is unfortunate as our area provides robust transportation food and other shopping shopping opportunities community health centers and the uvm medical center plus many opportunities for employment i'll begin with the first question and i'm going to ask our panelists who uh uh maybe we should start with uh uvm first and then go to city or back and forth depending on the question depending on who'd like who lets give information i'm going to the first question on the list that i sent out we're going to use that as a prelude to the uh i think the the presentation video or show that you have regarding last night's planning session the first question is how does the city and uvm expect the community or the neighbors around the university to continue to absorb or accommodate all those students who are not able to live on campus how do uvm leaders plan to engage long-term residents in the district to gather their perspectives so keith i i think i'll start i i think it might be easier if if we did our slide presentation first um because it might inform some context to these questions would you be willing to do that or do you want us to do the questions first we we we thought that we wanted to make sure we did the focus of these questions is more on vision not just what's happening right now um you know i'll i'll make an attempt to answer that first question i'll invite joan lisa to to fill in if they would like to um you know i i think that the university um what we've been talking about with the city council and what we've been talking about with the planning commission is a plan to build more student housing um in an effort to relieve some of the housing concerns and issues facing the city of burlington we know that we're a large institution we know that we play um a big part in the population of burlington um i think most people know that uvm uh it requires first and second year students to live on campus um that is unusual um we have a slide later that will will point to some information about that but if you look at our peer institutions um across the region in new england and across the country most schools were at least most state public institutions will require first years to live on campus some schools require no students to live on campus so uvm has made the decision to have first and second year students live on campus um we also do a lot of surveying of our students to find out what um their thoughts are and needs are in terms of housing one of the things that we've really heard from students in our most recent attempts to reach out and survey and pull them is that many of our graduate students would like to live on campus that's not currently something we provide so the housing project that we're talking about at trinity campus and looking towards future housing projects on campus will be inclusive of not only undergraduate students but also graduate students um and graduate students have also um expressed an interest in living on campus because many of them don't want to have cars they want to be able to be in walkable situations uh to attend their courses and do their clinical rotations or internships and so that is a current part of of what we're planning um I'd also like to say that I think that um in the way that that the way that you asked that question about how long will we continue to um put students in communities and neighborhoods um I think that I'd like to reframe that a little bit and say that um our students think of themselves as a part of this community and we think of them that way as well and I know that um that can seem like a transient thing when they're here for a four-year period of time I will tell you that we've put a lot of effort into tracking how long students stay how many students stay after they graduate about 70 percent of our Vermont student population stays in Vermont post-graduation and about 34 percent of our out-of-state students stay um I think it's kind of a wonderful thing that students come to attend UVM and want to stay and make their lives in Vermont I think it's particularly helpful when we see that um we have a demographic challenge with younger people wanting to come and live in Burk and Vermont so if we can create new Vermonters who are going to be productive citizens and want to stay here we're going to want to continue to do that and with some of the new housing projects we're talking about we're hoping that we can um produce some pretty significant additive housing to campus Joe and Lisa I'll let you chime in if you have anything else I think you've stated that all really well Wendy Brian or Megan do you want to add anything um I'll just add to what Wendy said from the perspective of um at least the work that I'm engaged in from the city with planning and zoning issues in particular um you know this question that you asked about you know absorbing and accommodating students that can't live on campus um and what we do about that in the future I think it also relates back to the kind of framing question or the framing issue that you shared Keith at the beginning of this panel just about you know who can live in all of our neighborhoods in the city and I think that this is a big part of the reason why the issues of looking at housing for students on campus or near campus is always paired with other housing work that we have been doing um in the last number of years we know that we need to make changes to how and where we can accommodate new homes in Burlington for any number of people and so we are trying to make sure that thinking about the issues of you know warehousing is located for students is one of the things that we're considering right alongside all of the other housing work that we're doing right I want to add if I could just one more thing I'm sorry um just you know I've been I've been in my role at UVM for almost 17 years now so um you know over the years this comes up at this MPA at other MPAs and and it seems like a lot of times um you know it's the the the conversation is often about balance right so I don't hear a lot of people say sometimes people say it but I don't hear most people say UVM really needs to house all of their students I hear a lot of people say that the students are welcome in the neighborhood and you know people use their students as babysitters they help the neighbors out but when the balance tips then it then it gets to be too much and for a for a long time for most of my years at UVM it seems like the the conversation about that balance was really about quality of life and um and noise and things like that um and I think that the city and UVM have partnered to do a lot of work around quality of life and Joe or Gail could talk a little bit more about the work that they've been doing in the neighborhoods um you know now I think we um the conversation has really become more about um you know what do we have how much housing do we have and who can we live here who can live here and are we providing enough so that we are allowing more balance in the neighborhoods and being able to bring students on campus in order to help the housing crunch that is in Burlington and in County and all of Vermont and really all across the country and I think that's what we would really like to do with this project that we're talking about at Trinity is bring some more students onto campus so that we can create a little more of that balance okay if it's okay I'll go on to the next question what is the city and UVM's intention to encourage more mixed age neighborhoods near the university could the city talk about that first or sure um I will address um that point Keith and I think it's an important one too um to go back to the point Lisa made actually about sort of balance and um mixed ages and you know mixed household types and I think all of those are goals that um we can broadly agree um that those are those are good those are positive goals uh the city with um with the support of the NPAs and the community engaged in the neighborhood project um several years ago and and really laid out a framework um sort of a strategy and a framework for um a focus around really trying to um ensure that we can sort of peacefully coexist as long time residents as well as newcomers who may come to attend the university perhaps they stay for only four years or perhaps they stay for 40 years um but nonetheless just try to ensure that we um acknowledge that we have um impacts uh no matter how long we're staying here and that I think it's you know we had enhanced the quality of life uh was one of the sort of frameworks we had three basic areas enhanced quality of life initiatives contain and slow down the conversion of single family homes from uh from single family occupants to you know multifamily primarily student-occupied homes was the was the focus there as well as the sort of reverse of that which is converting trying to find the resources and the and the capacity to convert selected student properties or properties that are predominantly occupied by students into um into non-student housing um and so those are sort of the broad categories of the the framework um I would have to say that we were we were moving toward making some progress before the pandemic and and really honestly um our office has and the city council um and the mayor's office has largely been focused for the last uh you know 22 months on on the pandemic and hasn't made um been able to focus on these issues quite as much so I think the fact that we're here tonight to talk about one of the most significant developments which is the rezoning of trinity to ensure that trinity can become the location of a significant increase in supply for on-campus housing is is really you know um you know very positive development I think it really is very consistent with the efforts that the city um with support from the neighborhood and I think with UVM um joining us at the table have been focused on is how because our futures are linked I mean our destinies are tied together and um you know we're really I think all this together hopefully we will make substantial progress uh with um trinity campus and I think that's a really exciting development to be talking about at this point. The one thing that I would add to what Brian said um in addition to the specific goals that we had in the neighborhood project and the work that we have been you know working with all of you to advance specific to you know the the relationship between the university and the neighborhoods um you know kind of speaking to your point Keith again about uh mixed-age neighborhoods and neighborhoods that are available and have options for many different people to live in um there have been a number of other housing initiatives that we've been working on in the last few years that are really aimed at that having neighborhoods where people of many ages can live where neighbors can age in their own neighborhood um so one thing that the city council worked on in 2019 and 2020 was updating our zoning to make um 80 use more permissible accessory dwelling units so that people have that as a housing option that they could um if they're able to you know create a small apartment in their backyard that might allow them to have flexibility to have a family member or a co um I'm sorry a caregiver or um even you know to earn some income to help them stay in their home over time that's another piece of work that kind of complements all of the things that we've been doing um that look specifically at the issues of housing and and housing in on the institution's campuses as a university representative just want to add anything to what's been said okay I can go on to the next question um what does UVM think is its responsibility is to engage with Burlington and the county to solve the housing crisis as one of the area's largest employers and recruiters of people to live in Burlington area for four years so Keith I'll open it up and and let Jo and Lisa add anything if they'd like but you know as we said before I think that UVM is acutely aware that we are a big part of this community we're very proud to be able to be a part of Burlington and a part of Chittenden County we think it is our responsibility as Lisa so eloquently put it to help maintain a balance um and we would really like to help to to restore some of that balance by a project like Trinity and future projects as we move forward with achieving some some zoning changes that will help us to achieve building the most efficient housing possible and and providing additive beds for our students to help ease a little bit of the burden of the housing shortage in Burlington and the county in the state so I think I think we're aware that we definitely have a role in in helping to solve this problem and we would we would really like to do that by being able to build more housing for our students and add additional kinds of students as I mentioned before with with trying to house some graduate students on campus as well as undergrads Jo or Lisa do you have anything else thank you I go on to the next question does UVM and the city think it has some responsibility to work on more density of living units to provide for essentially people who for students for example or for those people who want to take take advantage of living and working in Burlington to take the pressure off the development of housing outside of the city in the county that's really using a valuable prop land um I'll start I'll start quickly sorry Megan um just by saying that yeah we we definitely are interested in um and you'll see when we get to the slides for the Trinity project the reason why we're asking for some zoning changes there is to make sure that we're being efficient and and achieving density on a piece of property that we can build on um so I think that's the goal yeah I think from the city's perspective that's one of our goals as well um is you know our our city plan plan BTV talks about the importance of identifying ways that we can help support more housing being created on the institution's campuses the neighborhood project talks about the same thing the neighborhood project also talks about you know looking for other areas of our city where we might be able to encourage more dense housing to be created in order to help us you know both increase the number of homes that are available for students and for non-students but also to kind of help us you know create and some of the other goals that Brian mentioned about the neighborhood project to help us kind of slow the conversion of single family homes in particular in some of these neighborhoods so we definitely agree that it is a really important objective for us to um be working together on and I'll say that last night um the university presented their ideas for Trinity campus to our planning commission and the planning commission was also you know really ready to have a conversation about ways that we could look at the zoning for the Trinity campus to help them achieve the goal of of housing more students on that campus so I think yes um we we definitely see a role of zoning here to help with this issue if everyone's finished I'll go with the first question which I think really can lead into a presentation that was given to the planning commission last evening our question was what is the multi-year plan to build more living units with density on campus and in the district to decrease the demand for housing by students on surrounding neighborhood streets that really does not allow young families new professionals who want to stay in Burlington and live in Burlington but I really since students really lease their apartments for the most part in September October and November uh when uh so the the the apartments are already leased for the following year which really leaves graduate students and young young professionals who would like to stay in Burlington and work in Burlington out of the pictures that is uh they're able as they're not able to find an apartment uh because they're already leased to uh incoming uh students from the university well I'll just say you know but Richard Kate who's our vice president for finance and administration presented to the planning commission last night um he stated was really what we are considering a phased approach to adding new housing um so what you'll see tonight is what we're considering phase one and the beginning of that planning process is going to the commission um and coming here to the npa and getting feedback from the neighborhood on how the zoning could be changed to achieve what we're all trying to do which is to create more housing um the projects that you'll that I'll be showing tonight are what we're thinking of as phase one I can talk a little bit as we go through that about some other um other sites that we've started to have some initial conversations about um we haven't gone as far in the planning and um until we know what the zoning will be on trinity um we've gone about as far as we can before we go into further design and um planning for additional sites so you know the university is certainly thinking of this as a phased approach Keith would you would you like um for Lisa to share those slides now or yeah I think this would be if you have nothing uh if you don't want to add please just I think this would be your opportunity to show those slides and talk about last night's presentation great okay I'm going to show actually it's a little bit of a combination um so we have started the process um can everyone see my screen yes okay yeah okay great thank you um let's see just trying to get this okay into presentation mode um so we actually started this process um with a presentation to the city council about a month ago and then to the planning commission last night um as I mentioned this is the preliminary um start of this planning process there'll be more meetings um there'll be more public input but I'll just run through just a um what we've what we've started to present to the city so some of these slides went to the council some of them went to the planning commission um so just a quick overview we're gonna talk about you know our commitment to housing our students um the current zoning restrictions on Trinity campus uh and our proposal and then we can get some initial feedback from the community um so this we track you know obviously our our housing um our housing capacity and our enrollment on campus um the housing capacity includes our residential life beds that are within the residential life system as well as the affiliated beds that we have like redstone lofts um and redstone apartments uh the yellow line shows our undergraduate enrollment over um the last 11 years and the green the green lines of the housing capacity so this is just showing you know we've been adding housing over the years to accommodate some growth and enrollment that we've had we've stayed um tried to stay pretty steady with that um and this is the slide that Wendy was talking about earlier just this shows a selection of you know institutions that we consider our peers and then other public institutions across the country and the housing requirements as you can see very few of them have a first and second year requirement like UVM um just a few a few others um many institutions do have a first year requirement but as you can see there actually are a lot of institutions that also have no requirement um you know which is why the university gets concerned about requiring more than two years because of a student um you know and it's normal for students to want some independence and so if they're looking at the university of New Hampshire versus the university of Vermont they have to live on campus all four years at one and not at all on the other that could be um that could be the swaying point for them to pick one or the other um so our goals for Trinity campus um we'd like to build new undergraduate residence halls there um and also as Wendy said we would like to do some apartment style uh graduate student housing um while we are doing that um the current residence halls at Trinity are pretty old and in need of some upgrades so we are planning to upgrade Mercy and Macaulay while we're doing this housing project um one of the things that Trinity campus is really lacking right now is a dining hall um there's some limited dining options but for the most part students have to walk to central campus to get a full dining hall experience um and also enhance this enhance the sense of community on campus um you know in our in our studies that we've done with students graduate students are very interested in Trinity campus because it is close um and if they're in apartments the dining hall piece isn't as big of a deal but for undergraduates Trinity um you know seems to be the campus where there they feel like there's not a lot going on there so we'd like to really enhance the sense of community there and make it a more desirable place to live and then obviously we need to secure the zoning changes from the city in order in order to be able to accomplish these um so this just shows the the zoning allowances and the um request that we made to the planning commission last night uh currently there is there's an institutional core campus overlay on Trinity and I'll show you in a minute exactly where that is um where we have a 15% lot coverage allowance and we are currently at almost 38% um there is a 115 foot setback uh from Colchester Ave which really limits what we can do there um if you go east or west of our campus the setback is only 15 feet and there is a 55 um height limit which is in relation to the highest structure on Trinity campus which is Mann Hall um so we're asking for an increase of up to 60% lot coverage within the ICC uh a 25 foot setback and then to limit the height within what is the existing 115 foot setback um to 45 feet and then beyond that be able to go up to 80 feet um so this is Trinity campus this is Colchester Ave here whoops uh east Ave coming in from here um the ICC this piece is this is the Ira Allen School this does not belong to UVM but the ICC is essentially this central area of Trinity um it does not include what we what we lovingly call the ears which is this piece over here and then this piece over here this part of our own school we do own um those are not within the ICC so we're not asking for the increased allowance there it would just be in this um in this area um and then just to show this is the existing 115 foot setback you can see it's quite far back from Colchester Ave and this is just illustrating what the existing setback is for the buildings that are east and west of Trinity campus and so this is our preliminary um thinking around what we could accommodate at Trinity campus with some zoning changes um so this is Macaulay Hall here Mercy Hall over here um this building in the front would be the graduate student apartments and um it would be about 120 beds in this complex here um you can see we've broken it up a little bit to um to accommodate or you know relate to the streetscape um and not be quite so massive oh sorry and then the undergraduate halls would be along here connected and around Mercy and Macaulay and that would be about 400 beds of undergraduate student housing um we've talked you know we've talked a little bit I talked a little bit earlier about the phasing one thought that we have talked about is um this is what we call the back five dorms and a future phase might include taking down the back five in building uh there it's another there another uh group of residence halls that really is in need of um really needs some upgrades or something completely different back there and so this is just showing um you know a snapshot from um north to south just showing the massing of what these buildings could be this is Colchester Ave here um this is existing uh residence um uh residential style house I think actually it might be a business across the street um and then this is showing the setback from Colchester Ave um the proposed graduate student housing that could go up to 45 feet this house is 30 feet across the street um this is Macaulay Hall and then these um this is one of the proposed buildings that could go on the parking lot where next to Mercy Hall and um these are other proposed behind that and this is just showing the photorealistic rendering of again not a fully designed building um but showing how you could really work with the scale um and the massing the architecture um in the graduate student housing to really make it relate better to uh the neighborhood um I do want to know the 25 foot setback is from the city right of way which goes 25 believe it's no I'm sorry it's about 15 feet from the street so from Colchester Ave it actually would be about 40 feet back um and this is showing you know how the buildings could look behind that and my camera is in the way from my cursor um and this is showing what an 80 foot building might look like behind Macaulay Hall and then again taking in this is taking an existing picture of Colchester Ave and again showing the residence residential buildings across the street and how the graduate student housing excuse me if built here could relate to that um so that is what we have to share um like I said we had a we had a preliminary conversation with the city council um and then last night just preliminary conversation with the planning commission who as Megan mentioned have decided that they'd like to take this up as a topic of conversation um it sounds like we'll be going back in March possibly we don't have a date for that yet um and I you know we want to get preliminary feedback I know we don't have a lot of time to talk about it tonight because we you know had a lot of other things that we wanted to discuss this is just preliminary thought for all of you and I imagine that we will be back at some point to talk about it some more did any of the other panel members want to make any other comments I'd like to say something um just wanted to add that you know we've been talking about housing and neighborhood quality of life and these kinds of issues for a long time with the city the city's been a really good partner I think the neighborhood project really brought a lot of these issues into focus and I think this is you know really a very positive culmination of those issues that we've been talking about and represents a really uh you know it could be a really great step forward and you know provide more housing at a time when it seems more than ever we need more housing for people so I'm just glad that we're at this place right now and being able to talk about these things agreed well said Joe if not I'm going to turn this back over to Hannah we have about 14 minutes I think Hannah for questions or comments from the participants I saw a lot of hands up so I'll let you take care of that yeah so if you want to ask a question please indicate by raising your hand or just physically raising your hand I see a couple hands up right now I think we're going to start with Tom and then we'll go to other folks after Hi um Wendy the project that's being proposed for the Trinity campus is is that to accommodate further growth at at UVM and if so how much growth is really planned over the next five to ten years um it's not meant to accommodate growth right now the university does not have any plans to to grow our population I think that we'd like to encourage more students to want to live on campus by building more appropriate new housing we'd also like to encourage graduate students to live on campus who would like to as Lisa stated we have some housing that has reached its natural end that really needs to be upgraded in order for students to want to live there you see a little bump in our enrollment this year really attributing that to COVID as you can imagine for about a year we have many of our people that were admitted take a gap year take a year off some folks did not enjoy some of the online hybrid that that we had going on and prefer to defer their admission until we came back to in person learning so we've seen a slight bump of about 500 students this year but we do not expect any significant further growth in the future so this is really to have some encouraging encouragement for more students to live on campus different types of students and and we have some triples now that we'd really like to convert into doubles by having new housing okay next up we will go to Jeffrey then Karen then air hard. Hi first off just looking at those photo montages I just wanted to say I thought they looked really nice and seemed like an appropriate use of the space if we're looking for places for new housing to go at least that first blush looks great but just maybe I missed it I caught that the grad student housing was intended to have 120 beds what was the total number of additional beds that were planned for that and how yeah how much of a shortfall is that supposed to make up seems like 120 wasn't a big chunk of the student body 120 is for the graduate apartment style housing and then the new additional undergraduate housing would be an additional 400 beds for a total of 520 and and once we're able to you know come to an agreement on some zoning changes for for that parcel as Lisa said we're very interested in in a later phase after we complete this initial phase in developing what we call the back five which is towards the back of that lot into some more some more housing with additional beds back there as well thank you yeah hey then next up is air hard followed by Karen hi folks thanks so much for the presentation sorry I kind of missed the new time so I missed your the first 15 minutes and maybe you covered some of this but a couple questions one is whether well simple one is can you make these presentation materials available to us or are they already available online and how does I guess how does this fit in with your overall master plan for the university and does this in fact what you're presenting tonight represent your master plan for for the Trinity campus another question I had was how it's always been I know a bit of a challenge to make campus life campus living a something that really is attractive to students because a lot of folks obviously want to live off campus and don't want to live under the the UVM rules and regulations so I'm wondering whether you're going to be doing anything different to make this housing more attractive and desirable to students who might otherwise want to live live off campus and then I guess it was really great to see the graphic about the number of housing units that you've had and obviously applaud you guys for you know wanting to build more housing and helping to alleviate our chronic housing crisis in Burlington what would be really helpful is to see maybe a graphic that shows the actual percentage of students housed vis-a-vis the overall overall census so you know I know the overall number of students has changed and the overall number of housing units has grown but I'm just wondering what's happened to the percentage and whether that has actually the percentage of students that you've actually that your housing on campus has increased as well over time so I think I think that's those were my questions and thanks okay let me try to get through them all I'm going to start with a percentage question so UVM has had a long-standing goal to house 60 of our undergraduate students I would say over time we've been right around that goal this year we're a little bit under and I think as Wendy talked about we had an additional 500 students that you know a little bump in enrollment that we weren't necessarily expecting and that we're attributing to COVID you know we'll see what happens but we we have stayed right around 60 percent and you know consider changing that graphic maybe to show that let me go back to the beginning presentation materials um this isn't on the website yet um I don't know if it's on the city website yeah we can make sure to share the links with the steering committee there are presentations from both the city council and the planning commission that we can make sure yeah thank you Megan um the campus master plan I will mention so our campus master plan was done in the last iteration of it was done in 2006 and we actually are in the process of updating that um we haven't gone through quite the you know 2006 was the beginning of a period of growth for the university um you know we've been sure you're all aware we did a lot of building over the last 15 years um and so you know our directive from senior administration was that we're not we're not planning on being in that kind of a growth mindset other than things like this the new housing um we do want to do that um but we we're really just going back to the 2006 and updating what needs to be updated we're not looking at doing a lot of new building we're looking at spending more time and resources on what we have um but as far as the housing goes um I mentioned at the beginning you know what Richard talked about last night with the planning commission is that you know we're looking at this as a phased approach and we'd like to do more housing um we do have a preliminary um look at trinity campus in terms of where else some development could go I don't know how familiar people are with our campus master plan right now but our master plan the way that we've done it is it doesn't show necessarily a footprint of exactly where each building will go over the next 10 years but we look at we look at land banks which are a little bit more nebulous areas where we could grow and recommendations about what should be there so I think that probably that trinity land bank campus map is something we could show you all in the future um and the challenge to make it more attractive for students to live here yeah um I think the graduate student housing in particular is expected to be apartment style um probably more independence for them to to encourage them to come to campus um I think you know going forward I'm not sure in terms of we haven't gone that far in the thinking on the back five and what we might do there in the future um you know some of the other third party partnership for juniors and seniors um has also been apartment style that's over on redstone campus but um possibly something like that for undergraduates upper class undergraduates at trinity I'll also just add air heart that visa had said before that adding um a dining option on that campus um and improving the quality of the housing there we expect to encourage more students to live there um and so you know adding a place to to eat and to engage with friends and other students might make that campus more lively we're hoping that it will encourage students to want to live there thanks thanks to you both I'll look forward to looking at the materials on something a little bit larger than my phone so appreciate and appreciate the presentation thanks thanks okay we have about four minutes left and I'm mindful that we have a lot of hands still up but Karen you are up next okay I will be quick um I just I'm very excited that UVM will build more housing but it will not do us any good if the enrollment grows so is there any way that we can like not give the zoning change if that just means we're going to add 500 more students to campus because the biggest problem is the people that you know want to stay in burlington um and our neighborhoods change as we lose balance I know that on Nash Place I think three houses just turned into rentals the last year or so and you know out of 15 homes that's a lot so it's that's the big problem keeping balance in our neighborhoods and there is no magic bullet unless we keep more housing you know we build housing on campus and that was part of the neighborhood project so I hope I'm glad UVM is talking about this you can't compare us to some of those other places because UVM or Burlington has very limited housing we're stuck between the lake and south Burlington so thank you okay next up Bobby you've had your hand up for a while Bobby do you have a question yeah Bobby Tony this may be a little bit down the road but what um is has any thought been given to what the students will already live in these residences Macaulay Hall etc will do when the construction is going on please so do you do you have an answer to that I don't have an answer to that right now um I can get we can get back to you on that one okay okay thanks okay then we'll go Glen Ali and probably end on Todd am I unmuted yeah hi I just was curious about um what the impact on vehicles is going to be and I know there's certain rules for undergrads versus grads and just what's how many um additional vehicles do you think it's going to add to traffic on Colchester Avenue in this parking going to be part of the construction and a couple with that is is there any caught on additional public transit to kind of offset that thanks sir thanks Holly um you know I probably should have brought up parking I realized as I was finishing the conversation or the presentation earlier um I don't have a number yet so so just so everyone is aware um second year students are allowed to have cars on campus first year students are not um this the Mercy Hall uh one of the wings is we'll go on the parking lot at Mercy Hall if if this iteration of a project moves forward um you know we look at we look at parking on a campus wide basis and we have a joint institutional parking and management plan that goes through um the planning commission and DRB every five years uh right now because of COVID and the uncertainty last year we have a two-year approval so we're going to have to go through the JIP process again and we'll have to account for these projects um in that when we go through the approval process we were we do have a Trinity project um that we were thinking about there but it's changed a little bit but we do we have we have extra capacity on campus right now um due to um the on the slot of telework right like I was sitting right here in this dining room all day today and yesterday my car was not on campus and so our parking lots are um less full than they were pre-pandemic so we have extra capacity um the other thing is that the parking for these projects it's very likely not all of it if any of it will be on Trinity campus um we have parking over at Centennial which right now is leased to the hospital um one thought is that you know we may take those spaces back um and put some of the parking there we also have a number of our physical plant vehicles parked there so they might go somewhere else on campus um so don't have full answers for that yet um part of the reason I part of the reason I was asking is um a lot of us on the call have been listening to presentations about the Colchester Avenue redesign and how that's going to be different with different width of sidewalks and lots of different elevations and it I didn't understand if this new project takes that into account and how that might you know impact the um the metrics we've been looking at around that so I just wanted to put it out there I don't need to answer but it's just a question yeah let's look at that yeah thank you okay next up is Allie and we'll end on Todd hi yeah um Allie house um so I have um you know I mean a lot of folks here have have brought up the concern that many of our our students want to live off campus um and I think that's in large part due to affordability and so you know you've mentioned like plans to have new dining halls and and it's nice to have those those new amenities but I'm I guess I'm I'm just curious how you're going to make this a place that students not only want to live but actually can afford to do so um yeah I guess I'm just hearing time and time again from students that they do have concerns around the pricing of on-campus housing and it's it's out of reach for a lot of of folks so I guess yeah like what what is your plan to address sort of the the the issue of affordable housing on campus so you know I I understand costs obviously is a concern and it comes up a lot that that seems to be a big driver of students moving off campus you know as we've done various studies over the years and surveyed students cost comes up it's you know it's certainly one of the factors independence does seem to always rise to the top as the number one factor I think one of the things we maybe we probably could do a better job of as a university is communicating about what you what a student gets when they live on campus so it's hard to compare the cost of living in the dorms with the cost of an apartment and if you look at the cost on an annual basis and you know acknowledging that students are only in the dorms for nine months whereas an apartment is a full year lease the cost actually comes out pretty even and then I think you also have to factor in what you're getting in the residence halls versus what you're getting in an apartment which is you know of it which is staffing in the residence halls you get all of your utilities the you know the police we have police services on campus wi-fi all of those things that that do cost you know there are costs associated with them and I think probably we could do a better job of of communicating that to students and helping them to make better you know be able to make good comparisons back and forth you know cost is obviously a big issue with the university and you know the president garamillo has has held tuition level for is it the last four years wendy is it more than yeah with the with the approval for this next year's it's four years and room and board is included in that as as well as a reduction of fees so you know we're acutely aware of the fact that cost is is a real concern for all students and so his his affordability agenda with trying to hold both tuition room and board to no increase is is all a part of that plan and while I realize that it's maybe not as quick as people would like it to be there is a real commitment to that and and that's going to continue okay and then we'll end on Todd Todd Schlossberg at live on luma street live here since 1991 I'm heartened to hear uh uh Wendy Wendy Koenig's comments that the university doesn't intend to increase enrollment isn't a plan for that and so I have two questions the first is is given that um plan on the part of the university would would the university be prepared to make a condition of receiving the zoning changes it seeks making a binding condition that it would not increase undergrad enrollment significantly so as to you know stand by its commitment to to uh to um to try to meet the needs for existing housing pressures uh in our neighborhoods and and second um what provision is there to provide given that it is upper class student upper upper upper class uh undergrads who are putting pressure on our residential housing stock and making it so expensive for families and lower income people to live in our neighborhoods um what is the university going to do as far as making a commitment to set aside uh these undergrad units or primarily for um uh for upper class students as opposed to you know just more housing for first and second year students so in terms of your first question um I think that that's a question that president Caramel will have to answer um I don't have an answer to that I can't make that commitment on behalf of the university tonight I don't know um in terms of uh the second question asking about um housing for more upper class students we do have some some preliminary ideas about additional places on campus where we could build more housing that might be more attractive to or perhaps dedicated to more upper class students it's part of the phased approach that Lisa was talking about earlier we know that um that graduate students are finding that space on trinity campus to be more attractive as a place to live based on where it's located um I think upper class students would prefer to be more part of of central campus or closer to the downtown core and so we have some preliminary ideas about additional places um that we could build housing in the future about we've we've got to get through this phase one first before we move on to that could I just ask a real brief follow-up on that uh miss king sure just uh given that the you require students in first and second year to live on campus and therefore the pressures on existing housing stocks are coming from a third and fourth year students if you're not committing some of these a significant number if not the majority of these four or five hundred new beds on trinity campus to meeting the needs of third and fourth year students how will this project result in any improvement in our current condition and how is this anything that we as neighbors should be getting behind so if I could just add um to what I was saying I you know this is going to be typical the undergrad component is typical undergrad housing um we do have juniors and seniors who want to live in the residence halls it's not a huge number of juniors and seniors and um you know with the with the uptick this past year and enrollment we haven't had room for those ones who want to be in the residence halls to be there so this does add additional capacity it probably this particular project probably won't be set aside for upper class they would be sprinkled you know more throughout the residence halls all across campus um but this is additional housing above and beyond what we have now so it does provide additional capacity for those juniors and seniors who want to stay on campus I can't tell you that each every single bed will be you know will be for seniors but it does add that capacity for the ones that do want to be here okay great thank you all I think we I'll hand it over to Tom now to go into the candidate forum thanks for having us thank you thank you very much and um for the and for all of you for having us here tonight thank you thank you appreciate the conversation thanks uh candidates welcome to uh the ward 1 npa or ward 1 and ward 8 npa meeting tonight um um I had sent an email out uh just for uh to let everyone know and ask the candidates to uh provide their priorities for the city and I sort of ceded that by bringing up a few subjects which I'm going to just mention in bullet form uh quite quickly and that's the first one on my list was housing which we've just been talking about and also um policing uh equity the city's budget global warming and importantly how we as a city measure success in our city you know whether we're gone where we want to go so with that um we're going to start by giving each candidate five minutes to introduce themselves describe their priorities and I'm going to go basically off the list that I got from the city which has wards it's listed from ward 1 to ward 8 so I'll start with uh ward 1 and the so the order will be uh Rob Gutman Zariah Hightower those are the two candidates for the ward 1 uh seat and followed by Ali House and Hannah King for the seat um in ward 8 so uh Rob Europe first and and then after after that we'll have questions from the audience and if anyone's un um would not like to uh speak up but would like me to ask a question for them you can text me at 999-5572 and I'll bring your question up after each of the candidates has spoke and also one other housekeeping thing we'll go into the school commissioner uh race after we cover city council so again uh Rob you're on it's um thank you and good evening to everybody who's on the call tonight it's good to be here I'm good to be with you I'm running for city council in ward 1 and and the reason is because I really love Burlington I have a special affinity and have for a long time um to the city and I have a a um full of knowledge and experience that I think um would really apply to joining council at this specifically at this point in time um so I've been um involved in in housing inspection I've owned small businesses I've um I volunteer for Habitat for Humanities so I'm out there actually swinging a hammer um building houses in the new north end and and I think that all comes into play especially when we're in talk about housing um the other reason that I think it's important is to get involved and to join the city council is because there's a sense of dysfunction and and being able to move things forward and one thing I would propose right out of the gate if I do join the council is to have the whole council and the mayor out to um the Habitat site to do a day of building together and team building and physically building I think that would be a great exercise for for the council in helping to build bridges and pathways to compromise and cooperation which I think we all can agree would be a good thing so with respect to the major issues that I see one we were just talking about housing and and specifically in ward one with the Trinity campus I'm thrilled to see that the university is stepping up to help alleviate some of the housing pressure in ward one but ward one is kind of unique um in burdening the housing issues that we have in Burlington and that we do have the university we have the hospital center medical center um and and I think we shoulder a lot of the burden of of the housing um crisis in ward one and what I would like to see is to share that through development through through building houses and additional places to live throughout the city um so we can relieve the pressure on our housing situation we all agree vacancy is it is it a crazy low rate and and that and that creates a painful situation for uh renters and homeowners alike and across all different housing sectors and so I think the supply of housing needs to be increased and one thing that I would suggest looking at in in effort to do that and also to help um in the looking at more affordable housing is taking another look at inclusionary zoning um policy in the city and perhaps um add to it um it may be as an experiment um density bonuses to developers if if they are willing to provide additional affordable units I think that might be something that could help spur more more building of more market rate and and um affordable units and don't forget that with inclusionary zoning we cannot um you know market rate units go along with the affordable so so it's a good it's a good way to to boost both of those and I think there is a need and a need for a pathway for all of our um renters homeowners to either um to to join in the um the the wealth building exercise of of owning a home um another issue that I hear in the ward is is um the problem with zoning enforcement and I think that I've heard now from a lot of my neighbors that speak with them and zoning enforcement is a big deal it's a big problem it's a big issue with keeping the character of our neighborhoods and so one one thing that I thought that might make sense um is to um go to the administration and hold them accountable to answer some questions about zoning enforcement and why it is so lax um or appears to be and maybe um come up with a plan to um require all participants all players um in in a lease to sign an affidavit affirming that they understand the importance uh and the legal ramifications of of enforcing zoning and keeping to the for unrelated uh adults and parking on driveways and all of the other issues that we're seeing with with zoning enforcement another big issue I see and I I think I'll agree on is public safety and so with public safety it's I think it's it's important to um stabilize the police department we we we we can't let it um diminish any further to a point where the state might have to step in to support us I think losing local control of public safety would be a shame for us and I think we're getting close to that to that margin where where that might happen if we leave more officers so I truly believe that it's time to um build build um build back and build out complete with our visions for 21st century policing with um support for crisis management for mental health for social workers um and include that in rebuilding our police department and I believe that the best way to do that at this point is to hire a acting chief maria red as the permanent chief and as a permanent chief we can then hold him accountable or much more accountable to to upholding the standards and requirements that we need going forward as well as giving him and the department a basis for building back in a way that's going to be equitable and fair and in the vision of of how we want our public safety systems to be accessible um for us um and and and to operate within the city and then finally I think there's another issue that we all talk about and speaking with my neighbors especially uh and that's the tax taxes on portability um and so it's time to reevaluate the reevaluation if you will um understanding that communication around that process is probably um suboptimal and so I think that as citizens we we weren't really aware of some of the forces at play and necessarily why we had to do the reevaluation when we did uh or reappraise when we did and and some of the forces at play in determining how the property values were were balanced or out of balance due to the covid situation and and using um you know in the income approach for valuing commercial properties versus a the approach we use for valuing residential properties so those I think are the three biggest issues and I appreciate you listening to me and look forward to your questions thank you all right thanks uh Zariah you're next great thanks everyone um I think most of you know me my name is Zariah. Hi Tara, is she her pronouns and I'm running for reelection um I'm also the executive director of the peace and justice center and I flew in ward one just shy of six years two years ago I campaigned on the issues of housing affordability and availability transit and planning revitalization place oversight and equity for all as you can imagine I'm running again for basically the same issues because although we are a very different place than we were two years ago those are still those are still the core issues I think that we're that we're looking at um I moved to Burlington um almost six years ago and I one of the conditions for me moving here was that after two years I would be allowed to move to one of our other offices so I wanted to either move to Seattle or DC or um one of our offices abroad and now I no longer work for that company but I'm still here and I think that says a lot for about how much um well Burlington has grown on me but I think Burlington has also grown um and I think one of the big issues that we're still dealing with and I had a hard time not bucketing these um when we talk about priorities because I think that they're all all the issues are so intermingled but I think equity inclusion and public safety to me is a big one um and I think you know moving to Burlington it's a small town and it's a not a terribly diverse town and I think that that's the perception that we have and I think that's something that that's changing more and more when we look at our school district of a highly growing percentage of our school district is BIPOC children which I think is fantastic to have that many diverse youth in our schools um and I I think also just as we walk around the city I think we're seeing more diversity not just in racial diversity but all kinds of diversity whether that's age diversity LGBTQ diversity um and I think we're also seeing that in leadership roles in the city um obviously on public safety I think that um I think it's a big chunk of our budget I think that a society that spends more than 20 percent of its um of its general budget on law enforcement it I think it says something about how what we value and how we value it and I think that matters to me and I do want to see us spend I don't think our police budget should be more than our planning our fire and our public works budget combined um I think that says a lot about what we prioritize so I think I'm still um I think we've settled on I think we've compromised on kind of the number of officers and I think that I'm excited to see how we spend the rest of our budget um and what that what that looks like in terms of equity and inclusion for low income folks which are having a hard time living in Burlington section eight voucher holders you know can't even live in Burlington because there's no housing and that brings me to my second priority which is housing which I have a hard time not intermingling with environment but there's so many sub topics under housing that I think I'll spend a little bit of time on it maybe even call it my top two um or two of my topics and um one of the things I think there's so much under this one of them is houselessness um we've had a growing houseless population in Burlington for years um which you know there's at least Jason says to me that there's over 50 sites that he's seen that have houseless camps around the city of Burlington and I'm really excited that for the first time this year we the city council moved forward on really directly addressing this houselessness um not just with the federal funding but directly and you know creating pods in the city for for houseless folks and I think that's something that we'll have to continue to do is not use funding the way that we've traditionally used it with you know kind of the bare minimum but actually really head on and tackling the problem another houseless I mean another housing thing that I care about a lot is renters rights I think you'll know I care a lot about just cause eviction which is in the house right now and hopefully hopefully we'll pass in the next few days um I think not having just cause eviction is one of the biggest barriers that we have to address some of the low quality housing issues that we have because folks are too afraid to complain we have too little housing and there's too much turnover in the low quality housing that we have and so either folks just move on to the next housing or um if they're complained they're told to find new housing so I think um strengthening renters rights is really the way to improve our housing quality as is home ownership hoping that if just cause passes passes the next thing that we can do is have right a first refusal so that folks won't be outbid by cash offers and those things like that and I think there's a few other things the city could do creatively to improve home ownership um the last piece of housing is zoning I also think we have to change our zoning um and I think we actually have to change it to be a little less favorable to single family housing which just doesn't pay for itself doesn't pay for the streets there in front of it um we really need more multi-use unit properties which doesn't necessarily mean more rental properties I think having that be a mix of rental properties and um and home ownership homes even if they're multi-use and I think it's fine to make development easier but I think along with that we have to strengthen some of our policies like our inclusionary zoning which we reduced a lot three years ago um and I think balancing how much you're opening up to developers well so adding more requirements is usually the best balance and then I would now say education is the third issue but we don't have a lot of oversight over that we've got others like Kathy and I think the new superintendent's doing a great job so I think my last one is going to be just how involved residents are in um government and I think a big part of that is focusing on some of the positive issues and I think how much we are working together on things especially on the council which I think over the last year the council has done a lot to really come together and work together on a lot of issues and worked on compromise um and I think celebrating more of that and not always letting you know the media do the stories where we're working on where we disagree which is on some issues but I think especially with the council that we have which I think you all know is majority progressive and democrats I think there's a lot of really exciting really good work being done engaging folks early on those exciting issues as much as some of the harder ones and yeah it's going to be important for the city going forward. Thanks Soraya. Next up is Allie House. Hi everyone um my name's Allie House um yeah like like I said at the the beginning I um I use she hair pronouns I'm I'm running in Ward 8 um and yeah I moved to Burlington um just a little over five years ago um and I bring experience from the front lines of the pandemic as a social worker and also um working full-time in Vermont public schools um and yeah I've been really inspired by these experiences to run I I see the impact that local policy has on folks lives um and I fully believe that my experience uh working in this community will bring a unique lens to city council um and yeah I'm passionate not only about a local a multitude of local issues I'm also passionate about the ways that these intersect and I think I think oftentimes uh you know we we tend to talk about issues as though they're they're isolated but but really we know that many of these things are are interconnected um and I'm I'm a systems level thinker um and I have firsthand experience finding solutions um to tangible problems um within the context of these greater systemic issues at play um and yeah I mean I think now more than ever we need experienced leaders who who are optimistic about the future of our city um and and who are also committed to tackling some of these issues head on so I think um a big one of course is is housing you know we live in a city um that has 62 percent of the population renting um and we need you know real housing justice that that names um and resists the like really really inflated um and horrifically high prices um that folks are are paying and I think um you know something that I've heard echoed by by students and long-term residents alike um is the role that UVM has has played in this um and and as we know like they're they're a large uh corporation and and historically as a neighborhood it's been difficult um to hold them accountable and a lot of folks have expressed um concerns over like this idea of maximizing profits for profits versus doing what is actually in the best interest of our community um and I think this is actually the one issue that I hear students and and long-term residents agree on almost 100 of the time um and uh you know we you know we just heard this this presentation suggesting we put more um graduate student housing how student housing on campus um you know it's it's it's done right it's a great idea um to increase the number of housing um the amount of housing on campus but also like we have this big empty pit downtown where many of our grad students are going to be doing their internships is you know is there a way that we can can turn that pit into something that might work for our community um and yeah I think um another issue that I that I know our community is really divided over is um this issue of policing um yeah I think we really need to lean into um a data-driven approach to this um and I think you know I many of you are probably aware that I'm um the the only candidate in this race who's come out and actively opposed um the appointment of Chief Morad and I I I just want you all to know that um this the the issue that I take with it um lies with um the this idea of someone holding a position of power and also saying that racial bias doesn't exist in um policing I think anyone who who holds a position of power should should constantly be examining um the the bias in themselves and also in the systems um with which they exist and I know I'm someone who reflects deeply before before taking these kinds of stances and um I can tell you all right now with with honesty and and with transparency and certainty from the bottom of my heart um that I that I'm not okay with us having leaders in our city our city deserves better um than than leaders who who are okay remaining neutral and not doing that self-reflection um so that's that's kind of where I stand on that I know this is an issue that's really really divided our community um and we need leaders um you know who are who are really gonna critically consider bias within our police force and also bring people together and I I'm really looking forward to doing that if elected um and yeah I also think um we we do need to be taking a look um at you know in hearing from more folks who are investing in our city in terms of um homeownership we need to be hearing more from homeowners especially um in ward eight it's largely a student ward but we also can't be um leaving people out of that that discussion um so I really envision a burlington where everybody can can come to the table and and have these kinds of conversations with with honesty and transparency and and feel heard and understood um yeah so thank you thank you for having me on here thanks Ali um next up is Hannah King hi everyone um for those of you who don't know me my name is Hannah King I use she her pronouns and I'm very proud to be running for the ward eight city council seat it's a really surreal moment participating like this today as I remember so vividly when I first started attending our npa and ultimately joined the steering committee on november 13th 2019 I'm very grateful for the opportunity that I've had to work with my fellow steering committee members you know I'm running for city council to be a representative leader that listens and is responsive is thoughtful in their approach to solving complex in is thoughtful in their approach to solving complex problems I'm a renter student daughter of a single mother my father was a construction worker and my mother is a health care worker and proud union member yesterday actually marked 13 years since my dad took his own life so I've been reflecting very deeply on the ability policy has to not only push us forward but in some cases even save lives those very lived experiences of my family have served as the foundation to my commitment of pushing pushing actionable progressive policy forward you know I understand the daily struggles so many of my neighbors face because I love them each and every day myself I believe that ward eight deserves a counselor who has proven themselves to be a dedicated public servant and that understands the intricacies of our local government so they'll be able to produce results from the moment they're elected and I'm confident I am that person I believe we can solve our deepest challenges through working together and listening to each other I've worked tirelessly on behalf of my ward eight neighborhood serving on the npa as well as the ward eight representative on the community development block grant advisory board I've stepped up to serve during times when literally no one else in ward eight would I've been working to strengthen relationships between students in long-term Burlington residents I've created a penpal program I've worked with community coalition to de-escalate problematic situations in our student dense neighborhoods and with that I also have lived experiences with the understanding that being a good city counselor and candidate goes beyond just serving on city boards I'm proud of the time I've spent as a substitute teacher in my home school district as well as the work that I've done organizing with immigrant and refugee farmers to fight for increased and fair land access you know I'm also very proud of the support that I have of policy leaders from all over the all over the state state treasurer Beth pierce speaker Jill Kerinsky our own state representative Barbara Rachel sin and former state rep Mary Sullivan my experience working with communities of all types ensures I will be a compassionate well-versed and prepared city counselor for ward eight when we're looking at the priorities for our city the top three that I see are affordability housing and climate and racial justice in terms of affordability I've spoken very openly about my background coming from a single mother family when I've I put myself through school I pay for all of my own education expensive expenses and oftentimes support my siblings as well these struggles have input have impacted the way I view affordability in our city you know when they're not unique to just me when I'm going door to door or calling or it's sharing letters with folks most people share the same experiences that I do it's far too expensive to live in Burlington we need to work to create good paying jobs where we pay fair and livable wages and with that we also need to be creative creative about policy solutions moving forward I've spoken openly about creating a guaranteed minimum income program because I'm confident that we can make Burlington a more affordable and fair place to live for all Burlingtonians you know housing's a human right it's the foundation of health racial justice and long-term economic stability as the board at city counselor I'll advocate for rent stabilization and the creation of more stable long-term housing options especially for our neighbors experiencing houselessness as a renter I have experienced firsthand the realities of living in the Burlington rental market we just saw an entire presentation about UVM's effects on the housing crisis I first thing that I did was emailed UVM emailed President Gueramella to create avenues for dialogue because the only way that we're going to move forward as a community is if we're opening up ways to have conversations and we're saying we're going to hold UVM accountable there's no way to do that nor can we hold the city accountable on housing unless we're creating meaningful discussion in terms of climate and racial justice local municipalities as well as individual people have the responsibility of mitigating the effects of climate of the climate crisis I want to broaden access to public transit we need to move away from strictly car focus infrastructure and continue committing to expand expanding bike and pedestrian friendly infrastructure we need to enforce weatherization and rental properties so we can ensure that our renters are safe protected and warm during these winters and lastly we need to focus on preventing combined sewer overflows into Lake Champlain by investing in water filtration infrastructure and incorporating green design in our development in terms of racial justice I'm a white cisgender person I recognize the immense privilege that I have when we're navigating these conversations when we look at the current crisis of justice we need to look at the systemic realities that we're living in and that's why I've I've brought up that we need to create a guaranteed minimum income program because it will begin to look at the systemic realities that we're facing with that I'm also incredibly proud of the work and opportunity that I had to work alongside Karen Durfee the city of Burlington's first black HR department had you know Karen is doing incredible work into diversifying our city department hires and with as a counselor and with that I hope to work to ensure racial equity inclusion and belonging committee are provided adequate funding to do the critical work that they've already been doing so I will end on that thank you we're going to open it up for questions I did get one question texted to me but if you can just raise your hand I'll call on you and please direct your question to one or all of the candidates hey can you hear me yes hey I'm Deborah Kraft I live in ward one I've lived in ward one for about five years and my question is about maintaining the diversity of age in Burlington I think diversity of age is really important to a thriving city but I'm wondering how we can ensure that the next generation has an opportunity to have a place in Burlington so I know this has been brought up by everybody already tonight but I think younger people are often driven out when they can't afford to buy homes or pay rent and I know that the property tax reappraisal last year impacted a lot of homeowners and landlords and caused them to raise rent but I think even before that rent seemed to be climbing out of control so I'm just curious what are some possible solutions that people are thinking about you know is the answer rent control or changing property tax laws or building more UVM housing I'm just curious what what some people's ideas are who would you like to answer that oh um I guess so since I live in ward one I guess that would be directed to Zariah and Rob okay Zariah you want to you want to start sure yeah I think um I think rent control is hard I don't think it's a bad idea but I think especially in a um I guess having been on the council for the last years I think that there are things that are maybe less decisive that or divisive that we could do um yeah without some of the negative energy I think that includes one yes more multi-unit housing so reducing some of the single unit zoning and I think that's especially applicable in ward one and having there be more mixed housing I think one of the things that goes along with that is strengthening our inclusionary zoning so I think um young folks tend to make less money and the inclusionary zoning um wages aren't I mean they're not terribly I think they're what a lot of people in their 20s and 30s are making in Burlington so I think strengthening that to have it be yeah have there be higher percentages or have it not be offsite so that it really is in mixed neighborhoods um I do also think that as someone who try who successfully bought an apartment in Burlington I think a lot of people are moving out of Burlington into other places in Shending County which is you know bad for us in terms of losing those folks but also bad for us in terms of some of our largest environmental impacts as transportation going back into Burlington and so not having those folks stay here not having housing for those folks means that we're both losing those folks in every sense of the way but then also if they're commuting back into Burlington that we have that increased climate change liability and so I think that having more multi-unit housing and then having things that help first-time home buyers including right at first refusal so that there's so many people I know who love their home um that they're renting and then if it's sold they can't possibly compete with some of the especially some of the cash offers and the first-year apartments I put offers in on were almost um I was almost always outbid by you know wild cash offers and so I think um having ways for folks to buy housing and then also just converting more of the housing to um not just rental housing but also to ownership housing that is apartments would be would be a really helpful start. Thanks Rob. So Deborah thanks for your question um I think that the housing situation is it's a very complicated multi-dimensional problem that we have in Ward 1 and across the city um with respect to Ward 1 I think that the Trinity campus development I'm very excited to hear that UVM is stepping up to help ease the pressure on Ward 1 housing but I do believe that I think this came up in in in the presentation or in the questions uh afterward um and and I do believe that we need to hold them accountable um to to um make guarantees that they're not going to raise their enrollment you know the same number of beds that that they might increase um that we might allow them to to build um on Trinity campus so so the net net we have to use the Trinity campus development to ease the um pressure on on Ward 1 housing. Also really big and and I've been talking to a lot of neighbors during this campaign and previously is is maintain the character of our Ward 1 neighborhoods and I think that's really important and we can't lose sight of that and with respect to that um you know there's there are proposals and thoughts and ideas of building um in backyards and infill and things like that and and I think that that would definitely change the nature of many of our neighborhoods which have already changed to the point that that's becoming uncomfortable um in some respects for the existing um folks that that are living there both uh homeowners and and long-term renters um I do agree that housing density is is part of the of solving this puzzle of solving this problem and and I think that there are locations in the city that really lend themselves to uh higher density housing and with higher density housing um we eliminate needs for transportation potentially uh or individual transportation um we can batch a lot of that up if we've got more people living in one location that that needs to move uh we also it's also is a very economical way to lead to homeownership especially for first-time homeowners um buying a house on a property that requires maintenance and upkeep as opposed to buying a condo um where where all of that is shared and managed professionally I think um is is really important for providing um first-time homeowners the ability to really start to build equity in their own home foundation um in the community and and a source of family wealth and and generational wealth and I think with respect to that we also have to understand that that there's been a racial component to this throughout our history and and I think that um leading uh if we can provide home ownership opportunities um across all all um previously discriminated against um folks I think that that could be a very very powerful way to um help help right some of the wrongs of the past um the um the last thing that I will mention is is inclusionary zoning and I think I mentioned it in in my intro earlier and that is we do use inclusionary zoning but I think that if we can provide incentives for developers um by maybe allowing for um some increased density in some of those developments and that will lead to more affordable units as well as market rate units I think that would go a long way in helping to ease the the housing paying and the housing situation and affordability situation that we currently find ourselves um we've been looking at this problem and trying to fight this problem for many many years and I think it's finally time that that we you know get a handle on it and start moving forward with some real solutions thanks um Julie did you have a question it's been answered but I'll just take this minute to just say how much I appreciate candidates being here tonight and the passion and supporting our community so just a big thank you for me thank you uh next up is um Caitlin hi thank you um this actually Brian Sewell calling in um I want to give uh Councillor Hightower a chance to respond if she had her hand raised uh and then I'll ask my question sorry this wasn't a big note I think it's just the something I've tried to talk to folks about is character of the community and especially because we had then the equity equity component with that is I think character of the community or character of our neighborhood has been used a lot across the US to um to talk about it's a kind of dog whistle term to talk about like not wanting diversity so I think just using that consciously um when we say that we you know if we want more multi-unit housing that that does bring more diversity and that that doesn't necessarily destroy the character of our neighborhood so that was a rebel right so so can I just take one moment right there and and just express that that that is in no way was was a dog whistle intent um or or conscious comment on my part with respect to racial equity in fact I I strongly believe that pathways to home ownership in our community are really important um and especially for um BIPOC community members and and I in in my heart of hearts I can tell you that I've seen the inequities in home ownership and and wealth building in this country for for since its inception and I believe that that really needs to be addressed there's uh you have a question now yes thank you um so this is Brian's old ward one on luma street um for uh councilor hightower and candidate government I just wanted to ask if they could explain how um their experience informs their approach to uh the city council okay you want to go first did you say me first yes great yeah and also wanted if that wasn't anything against um uh mr. gutman I was just expressing uh something that I've heard in the neighborhood a lot and we've tried to talk about with folks um yeah I think my experience I think folks know right now I'm the executive director of the peace and justice center um but before that I was um working in international development especially on environmental issues and so I think I bring a lot of experience on environmental issues across the globe and um also um have lived for a very long time in uh the south or at least Oklahoma considers that the south most other people don't um and it lived in very republican places so I think to bring that together is I think I have experience working with folks that I don't necessarily agree with I have experience um looking at a cross section of environmental things and especially in international development you know looking at unintended consequences of policy and what that means over time and having some forethought about doing things carefully um I think that my experience especially in international development and working on a lot of private sector and public sector issues is getting to consensus I'm a facilitator by training and so a lot of um what I do is try to move groups to consensus on really complicated topics that require a lot of nuance and then I think also just my experiences my lived experience um I am you know clearly a black woman who comes from a fairly economically disadvantaged background and I think that has informed I think that has created the ideology that I take into council with me every day and how I address issues and then my personality which is the one of compromise it means that I take my ideology and then I'm really open to listening to other viewpoints and to try to find that compromise and I think more than anything I think most of you know I have a very strong ideology and very strong beliefs um and because of who I am I think usually I try to find compromise in that um because I I believe in bringing people along so that we can really make progress because otherwise sometimes there's backlash and that never works out either so I think that's how my experience informs how I think that was the question thank you engage on council so Brian thanks for your question um with respect to council and servant on council I can tell you that I have a lot of experience working with groups similar to the council in terms of trade organizations standing sitting on boards of and treasurer of a trade organization statewide trade group I have experience as an affordable housing advocate I have an I have experience as a home inspector a licensed home inspector and now building homes in the new north end because I really believe in in the mission of affordable housing so I swing a hammer I encourage anybody on this call to come to come volunteer and habitat but but but mostly I believe that the city council is in need of some personalities that are really focused on on collaborative and and compromise type solutions to fixing our problems and and focused on the problems of the city of Burlington specifically uh when when we look at some of the situations we've seen in council with respect to debating issues about overseas situations and the amount of time and the amount of um um raucous behavior that's been allowed to occur at council meetings um I believe that it's just it's it's just not beneficial to the city and and getting the the business of the city um done and in the way that I think it should be and and with talking with my neighbors in ward one uh as I have been there's a lot of agreement with that and so I think I said earlier I would you know I see an opportunity with uh bringing all 12 counselors and the mayor out to work on the habitat site on north avenue in a way that will spend a day um building together um building bridges together uh interacting together um in an effort to not only you know team build in the tradition traditional sense but also help um move forward a solution to one of the the problems that we've been talking about all night tonight and that and that's affordable quality housing and in a way that leads to home ownership and and and the wealth building that uh and generational wealth that that that brings with it all right thanks Rob um this is going to be our last question for tonight and I think the the candidates for ward one have mostly answered this so I'm going to address it only to the candidates for ward eight and that's um what have you done and this was something that was texted to me what have you done to show you have the skills to help the council work cooperatively on contentious issues and what would you do on the council to advance cooperation and community and get things done for burlington and I'll start with um Hannah King yes thank you I think that's a really important question as I mentioned earlier on in my um in my speech I guess um I've been working for years in the ward eight community I am very confident that I I know my neighbors even before do like embarking on the campaign I had had conversations with them I I make calls I send letters I put in the work to make sure I I know the community that I hope to represent which I think is critically important beyond that I also have experience working you know with different communities which I think is important but also with different political parties throughout this entire race I've tried to make it incredibly clear that I I am running as an independent thinker I really just am trying to be completely separate from from the parties which I think is important and you know I think there's a lot of political damage that has been done and from what I've heard on the door whose folks are very burnt out by that and are disinterested in in the party politics of it all um so I think my my experience working with different counselors in in a non-political way um gives me an advantage as well and then beyond that my my time serving on city boards and understanding and learning and having the opportunity to see how city government truly works I think is also very important and I mentioned earlier that we really need leaders that are willing to have conversations with folks even if it feels uncomfortable you know in in terms of the whole public safety discussion and whether or not to confirm acting chief mirad I put out a statement as soon as it happened because I wanted to make sure that I was upfront with my neighbors about the fact that I have to do more work as an individual to figure out how I would vote you know ultimately it's a 20-plus month long process that I was not at the table for and so I had three steps and the three steps that I committed to were having a direct conversation with the acting chief as well as the uvm police chief I met with mirad yesterday and meeting with the uvm police chief tomorrow I also am having one-on-one conversations with my neighbors meeting them this is a big concern and folks are not on the same page and then I will be hosting a listening session at the end of the month and so I think my experience putting in the work to see where everyone is at and meeting folks where they're at will make me a productive counselor who can work with all counselors not just those in my own political party thanks and Ali I think you get the last word in here yeah no that definitely is um a very important question um we do want to make sure that the the leaders that we are electing are going to be effective in office so I definitely hear that um yeah and so so like I've said I um you know I work in this community I have have very very deep ties both um professionally and um personally um and you know especially as a social worker um also even though I have never held public office I have worked closely um with city counselors on various issues I've been down at city hall I have testified um on matters that that are important to me and are important to the people that I serve um I I've also met with Phil Scott our governor who many of you all know is is a republican um and talked about the um water crisis of um you know PFOA is leaking into our our waterways and making people sick um that's something that my family has been personally impacted by um and uh you know I I think in this community um you our community is not um immune to this this concept of performative activism of people who who come in and claim that that they are activists and that they that they want to change things and there certainly is nothing wrong with activism um but but I think it's also important to remember that we have to go beyond just this surface level um engagement in our community and we actually have to be addressing things on on all sides um on the activism side and and on the political side um and and really you cannot have one without the other it is it's crucial to be involved in both um and yeah as as city counselor I I really am excited to bring that lens um to to the table thank you um next on the agenda was a a an equivalent discussion about school commissioner candidates are there any candidates in the audience hearing none um Hannah I'm turning it back over to you and we can go on with the agenda awesome thank you so and next up we are going into the school budget discussion so Kathy I believe you will be leading us through that yes so well so this year I'm pleased to say and I'm sure most of you are pleased to hear that you will have your school taxes reduced um we are the even though the budget has gone from 95.1 million to 98.2 million wages I mean annual increase in health insurance wages debt service utilities etc are 2.5 million of that and the 1.10.6 million of that is safety and security upgrades at downtown BHS that will be paid for through surplus funds so it will not actually be funds that will be taxpayers will have to be paying so our tax property taxpayers will there will see there a decrease of 6.89 percent this year which for a homeowner of a $370,000 home homestead is it will go down their tax bill will go down by three three hundred and seven dollars for those paying by income tax they will have an 8.09 percent decrease and theirs their tax bill will go down by 102 that's for a $50,000 house so most of this comes that there is a nine there's 90 million dollars worth of surplus in the state education fund this year and and that is that is what is having helping us to have this decrease in school taxes this year we have through ESSER funds added positions very few but those that we needed really to add and I can also in you know say that at sustainability academy and edmunds elementary there will be I mean Champlain elementary there will be special educators added to there will be interventionist tutoring at s sustainability academy and Smith and academic parrots at IAA and Edmunds elementary school there will also be classroom libraries added to or book spot for them at IAA and Edmunds elementary there'll be interventionist guidance added to at EMS and parent parent admin ambassadors at hunt middle school and student leadership at EMS mental health counselors math and reading interventionist restorative practice staff and guidance um stud guided study teachers will be added at the high school these are all with the federal ESSER funds and due to the pandemic and what that has caused mostly in mental health and kids falling behind academically so those are being added but those are all added and being paid for for the next two years or with ESSER funds from the federal government that were there for that reason so literally I mean if people have questions you can certainly ask me I can try and answer as much as I can there is a one pager that will get sent out to everyone that will explain and give it to you in an easy format to understand but if any of you have certain questions right now about the the budget please ask I will try to answer them okay does anyone have any questions I'm seeing Tom and Claire have their hands raised though so we'll go to them first okay hi everybody are you able to hear me okay yes okay great I just wanted to check in thank you commissioner all all well for running and running through that I just wanted you all to know that that I'm here and can help take any questions as we as we go through the the evening here and just to reinforce Kathy's presentation which is that we are anticipating a decrease or we're projecting a decrease in in in taxes uh this year because of the surplus in the ed fund and so that's a that's good news for this year but one of the things that our school board has been doing great work on is lobbying and advocating extremely hard at the state house for an equitable funding model we currently have an inequitable extremely inequitable funding model that under funds English learners by huge amounts and so that's that is we're actually at a pivotal pivotal moment there it's in the senate ed committee and they're really listening and and looking like they're gonna make some decisions that could that could help us but that's a big piece for us moving forward because when we don't have a surplus in the ed fund the the amount that taxpayers or that we're paying per pupil is pretty high and so if fixing the funding formula will make that number reasonable and it's actually it's it's sort of a textbook example of of systemic racism the way that the the that we are funded compared to neighboring districts with higher with with fewer students who qualify for English for English language learner supports as well as fewer students living in poverty so it's a big big issue that we we need to fix now for future budgets so the budget this year looks good even though it's comp it looks complicated on the on the ballot the the the thing that we really need to work toward is the is future years and then Claire I see you have your hand raised as well hi yes I'm just Achilles Locoso who is running for a school board candidate in ward one is an in the attendee he needs to be promoted to a panelist to be able to speak please it keeps showing that they're declining to be promoted awesome can you guys hear me yes yes you're here you're live thank you awesome great should I uh should I go or was I in no something yes it's your turn to introduce yourself Achilles thank you awesome all right thanks so much Claire um hello everyone on my name is Achilles Locoso um I am currently uh under gas senior Plasberg right cost of lake um I'm also a previous VHS um graduate I graduated in 2018 and I am definitely one of the younger individuals who are who is looking to get um involved and started with the school board um I am a psychology major right right now and currently trying to apply to UBM for graduate school so I'll be back home um close to the spring and obviously during the fall so I wanted to get interested um it's a nice opportunity for me to look at the school side things beyond the scenes and see uh pleasure to see what kind of regards you're doing and since I am a younger individual who is pretty connected to the community I wanted to um get connected through the school board um and just touch up on issues that I've seen as a young individual um as a young black male and also um just speak on issues that I see present in the community um I also have some good ideas so I'm looking forward to share my voice and getting along with me everyone else and that's uh pretty much it for now thank you does anyone have any final questions before we move on seeing none we will go into the final part on the agenda which is the state redistricting update from Zariah and I guess just Zariah um so you can take it away thanks Hannah um yeah I won't talk too much on this I just wanted folks to know that the city council for the first time looked at the um maps that the house is proposing for redistricting on Friday I'm sorry on Monday at the city council meeting and we have a deadline of next Tuesday to give them a final answer um so I was just wanted folks to kind of know that because the they sent us a mixed district with some districts that were two seats and some smaller districts that were just one seat representing them and the council gave the broadly consensus feedback that we either want all districts that are two or all districts that are one I heard today a rumor that now they're going to give us 11 seats instead of 10 which obviously will make that impossible for the two that it's all the same across the city so unless I hear otherwise my from folks and also not a front porch forum post about this but I'm planning on advocating for um 11 one member districts because just because we heard from the survey that folks want smaller districts and especially we don't know yet how the senate is going to break up um there are things but we assume that'll be larger chunks and so planning on advocating for 11 one member house districts and I think that's it and then the other thing is clearly I mean this is for ward one but um ward one was split up kind of along Colchester Ave in some of the maps just so folks know that and ward eight is completely different there's a downtown district and whatever else not okay does anyone have any questions okay seeing none I think that I do have uh just one last thing and that's okay if anyone on the call has ideas for subjects for future npa meetings it would be greatly appreciated if you would send a quick note and say hey I want to hear about this or about that that would really help the steering committee schedule subjects for discussion okay great thank you all so much for coming tonight and we will see you next month