 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I am joined by Tony Fletcher who's a great music biographer to talk about Keith moon Tony welcome to the podcast Thanks for having me Bart. It's a great show. Thank you. Thank you. This is awesome We've been we've been trying to make it happen for a while I think the first time we were gonna record my son was my second son was born that day so Yeah, probably a good idea for your marriage not to try and do a podcast today. Your son is born. Yes, exactly But this is a really cool one. I I think Keith moon is mythical I mean he holds a very special place in everyone's heart He he's he was gone too soon. I before we start I want to read you you had in in the book written somewhere I believe it early on Keith was a pop star by 18 wealthy member of UK's rock aristocracy By 25 and then he was dead by 32 truly an interesting story So for the sake of time because we're gonna keep this kind of compressed today, Tony Why don't we just jump in and you can teach us about the life of Keith moon? Sure, absolutely And my hope would be that given your your podcast and the listenership that people will your listeners will know Keith moon to be an amazing instinctive and Incredibly influential drummer And you know his antics the moon the loon personality is Totally wrapped up in his drumming. His drumming is wrapped up in his personality. He was hyperactive at least and Possibly would have been these days diagnosed with much more serious mental health issues than that but For me, it's imperative to state that although he seems an untreated drummer And I'm sure a lot of the drummers you've talked about over the years on your show were way more tutor than way more Disciplined and took more lessons What Keith did within the world of rock and roll? There there for me is a kind of before Keith and an after Keith and he took the drums in Rock music particularly the 1960s rock music that was starting to conquer the world You're beginning with the Beatles and he took that drum effectively from the back of the stage to the front of the stage He took the drummer from being the supporting member to being a star member his Unbelievably vivacious outgoing And certainly at times completely lunatic personality Is part of the legend of the who them and and I loved it as a kid I Just was probably like many kids. How can anybody be like this? Why can't I be like this? Of course when I came to write in the book I realized nobody would want to be like Keith no who was ultimately an incredibly tragic figure but there's enormous happiness and success and beauty and art in a lot of what's the earlier parts of his life and We'll we'll get through that life and as you've already mentioned it ended way way way too soon But man, did you did he leave a mark on this planet from the time he was here? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely I mean, it's it's explosive and he just looking at his face and his eyes. He's very there's a sweetness to him I will say like I believe you called him like the like the pin-up like a mod pin-up and It's you know, it's just sad everything was just put on his shoulders And he had the personality to just take it and run with it and as we start here I will say that your book dear boy the life of Keith moon is what we're gonna be referencing and then there was a great BBC kind of biography Documentary that you were in that I watched and took a bunch of notes on I read the book is like 550 pages so with a little kid it was very hard to But it's a good reference and I really recommend it to people So to kick it off And then you can take it away, but I believe so he was born August 23rd 1946 post-war, which I thought it was interesting that you said People born then didn't understand why parents wanted a quiet life after they had survived the war and the kids were like bored because of that Yeah, I think the original rock generation particularly the British one Work because you got to remember that London was bombed Heavily all of Britain was bombed in the Second World War. So without downplaying the the extreme importance of the US entering the war after Pearl Harbor the British by that point had suffered through the blitz and So the the damage in the UK was enormous the physical damage the emotional damage on the returning soldiers was enormous as well and This comes up quite a lot in my biography, but you know They're only very recently as mental health ever been addressed in the UK and Everything all the way through Q's life is just oh, that's just who you are. You know, you just deal with it so the soldiers came back and They had no doubt seen atrocities and horrors and they bothered it up and they just wanted a quiet life They'd seen their home cities get bombed. They'd seen people die they may have participated in in enemies dying and They weren't going to talk about it. None of them would talk Maybe they talked about it with each other but you have a whole generation of British rock stars whose parents were in the war who never talked about it and London was getting rebuilt There was support for for housing etc. But England in the 50s 60s even when I grew up in the 70s and 80s I mean not yet that the place was still when I was a kid in London in the 70s There were still bomb sites everywhere and this was 30 years after the war and I actually remember going to Liverpool and seeing even more bomb sites So it wasn't even like London had it had it bad. So Keith grew up in this post-war very Initially quiet suburban. Let's rebuild the country environment. There's still rationing. There's still national service for older kids and He's a character from the beginning. He's just a little I mean he can turn it on He can be a sweetheart. He can charm anybody. He knows he's one of those kids He'll charm you and then if he thinks he can get away with something He'll just do like crazy stuff because that's who he was. He was the local tarot way but even from the beginning people loved him and And and forgave him and wanted to sort of be his friend because everybody was just like that Keith moon You know, what a what a crazy what a crazy cat But that's yeah, that's the environment he grew up in relatively stable. You know mom and dad two sisters and I've seen the Wembley house. I haven't been inside it. It's very normal and To be honest There was a ton of British 60s future rock stars grew up in the exact same area of Wembley Harrow Pina, you know Elton John's from down the road at so many great musicians Richie Blackmore and You know so many people came from that area of suburban London. It's fascinating. Yeah, that's interesting It's something I mean, I guess that that's sort of like downtrodden You know, they just like like we said, they needed to break out some way and have creativity Well, what happens is rock and roll comes along and at the same time in the UK jazz turns into skiffle and Skiffle and for those who don't know Is and there may be some who don't know it's just it was just incredibly basic version of playing jazz with homemade essentially homemade equipment like, you know a broomstick for For a base, you know an overturned bucket for a drum just this idea the stuff that you could busk with and Combined with seeing and hearing particularly rock and roll arrived from the States Everybody who was there Roger Daughtry says it repeatedly that the world just went from black and white to color You know national service was done away with I think I'm in 1958 rationing had continued for a long time after the war I think about a decade and all of a sudden there are these pop stars from America These rock and roll stars moving in ways people had never seen playing the piano in ways people had never seen They're singing Bebop a Lula and all kinds of stuff that doesn't make sense and is do you know is just great fun and This this generation of post-war kids who don't have particularly close relationships particularly with their fathers Just this have their own world and attached to that. There's a lot of money in the UK comparatively Money, I mean that the country was was financially very poor and rebuilding but there were jobs and this new generation Was able to get jobs people left school at 14 or 15 years old in the UK They were able to get jobs and with their spending money. They suddenly started spending it on clothes and records and Their parents felt alienated from them a lot of it So you had a generation gap building as well So Keith was Keith was among that he certainly had the love of jazz, but he's among those who? as the world moved into to rock and roll and the British had skiffle was just like This is where my heart lies. This is where I'm gonna find myself a way to participate Yeah, yeah, because you got a rebel and you got a defy and it right right place at the right time I don't want to say you know the war and everything makes for a right place. You know what? I mean though it's it creates that but so from what I remember from from what's written is I believe his first encounter with the drums was in the sea cadets. Is that correct? I mean, I think he was 14 years old as technically in 1961 when it was stated that he first played the drums Is that right? Yeah, that is right and I was actually looking back at the book and like you it's uh It's a long book to to read in one night before doing an interview But I did write it so some of it comes back comes back to me when I when I reread it He he did talk at one point about how he didn't find the drums the drums found him and I thought that was a A very perceptive quote on his part like any kid and I have fun enough I work these days with a lot of young kids in in a music academy and you see them work their way through instruments Until they find the one that that they really meant to be playing and I think kief tried out a little bit of the bugle And was probably thinking, you know, can I be a guitarist because that's where the action is I mean and and then he just realized, you know, I am very good at hitting things And the the the drums will serve me just fine Yeah, he still had to learn how to play them But you know, we can we can move on to that those kind of sea cadets things would have been pretty common at the time There was not a lot of extracurricular options available for kids kids were spending a lot of time on the street So little things like sea cadets boy scouts. I don't think the youth club movement had started That was more around my generation If you excuse the he had the pun but um, but that yeah, it wasn't deliberate But that that came along. I think a little later So if if you did want to do stuff after school with extra more people something like the sea cadets would have made sense Gotcha, he's not the kind of guy who's going to sit there and take piano lessons with like a little old lady learning, you know, kind of classical music Drums kief moon. It just it's it is exactly right. The drums found him. I mean, it's I can't imagine him playing anything else. He's just an explosion of a person Now if i'm not mistaken carlo little was that right was his drum tutor He said that was a that had to be a big moment kind of getting a some formal training Yeah, and that was actually a section. I I'm really glad you asked me because I purposefully reread all of that section But because I know that that's a crucial stage as well Um, I will say I was delighted to meet carlo little he's I like a lot of people in the book which is now 20 years old He's no longer with us carlo was incredibly influential and did not make it uh famous in fact I tracked him down uh as a hamburger salesman at wembley stadium at the sunday market Uh, uh, initially he was really not thrilled that I saw him in that capacity and once I we got to talk on the phone He realized that I you know, I traveled all the way across london because that was the only way I could find him And uh, he gave me a wonderful wonderful interview which I think was integral to the book Keith liked to kind of put out the idea that he was self-taught and to a large degree He was but um when the when the rock and roll thing happened in the uk You know, there was initial kind of splurge of activity and then much as it happened with Elvis It all got sanitized very very quickly People like cliff richard became a family entertainer um You had this guy larry parnes put now all these like young Teenage boys with ridiculous names like dicky pride and vince eager You know the better ones were people like billy fury, but those were the names that you had and and yet as as will happen There was a core of groups that refused to go along with this sanitization johnny kid and the pirates important to the who's history and um Screaming lord such in the savages screaming lord such it was a legendary character in the uk He ran for parliamentary election continually for the monster raving loony party um And probably probably did not always lose his deposit because people just loved him That he would just keep running for you know, he was sending up the political system So that was your front guy And he put together the hardest rock band behind him Richie blackmore was part of his band. Oh, nicky hopkin Nicky hopkins was part of his band and people went to see the group as much for those guys and as much for Screaming lord such They went to see carlo little and by all accounts nobody in the uk kicked that kick drum or hit the Tom's and the snare as hard as carlo and keys being keys He'd befriended a very very very straight kid in his neighborhood I I guess, you know, sometimes that's the kind of foil that you need Yes, and he befriended this this kid jerry evans who very quickly got a job in one of the music shops in central london and They went to see the savages at one point at wembley town hall and keith just Found his way backstage approached carlo and said we worship you and Which a lot of people didn't say can you teach me how to drum like you do? And keith carlo is he's a total rock and roll guy. I mean he's you know working class straight out the army He's like i'm not a teacher. I don't know how to teach drums You know go learn them yourself and and keith just persisted carlo said All right come around my house wednesday night. Here's the address It's you know, it's 10 shillings or whatever it or two shillings whatever it was he said Sure, um, I'll I'll see you then and it was the only person carlo ever taught And keith split the cost he He got his friend to stand outside and wait for him And give him like a quarter of the money and then when he when keith came out of the lessons They would run back to keith's place and keith would show his friend What what he had learned and so he uh, he got a lot of that from this guy carlo little and I would just say as a sort of biographer But but I mean as much as anything as a fan. I love this when I read books I love these unknown stories the the back stories the this for me is all the exciting stuff That the fact the fact that he worked with somebody like that that Had never come out before and it's so integral to keith's development. Yeah, absolutely and I mean We have spoken through emails and even before we started about just the most important thing is keith moon is an incredible drummer. I mean he is easily one of the best rock drummers in in history and and I think um it's his I believe in the biographer the bbc thing I was watching people were talking about how he kind of matched the lead parts with his tom work and his um His cymbal work and it made him stick out rather than being like, uh, charlie watz or some or even ringo Who love those guys? Obviously, it's just a different Vibe where they were more backbeat rock drummers as you said before keith was right up front I mean, he was he was very much in the front of the um, you know of the music. He was a part of the band He was and what we have happening for the next few years of his life before we jump on to the who Which is obviously where he made his impact keith wanted to drum He's he you mentioned he was born just after the war other members of the who were born during the war A lot of the british sort of rock royalty of that generation were born towards the end of the war Keith is a year two years maybe three years younger than the generation he came up with He's the little kid that hangs out with the big kids and the big kids kind of accept him because of his enthusiasm Because although he's a lunatic he's serious about what he's doing. Also, you're gonna have a lunatic around It's and i'm yeah, I say that in the nicest possible way It's handy to have one around who's smaller than you and you can kind of Keep him in line a little bit. I've been in those scenarios I've also been that little kid who was taken on and and like taken up by kids three years older than me So that was keith's role and so he joined a lot of bands where he was maybe the youngest kid in the band A succession of them. There was the escorts uh was one in particular, but then he joined a A cover's band called the beach comas and keith's loved surf music Interestingly, the beach comas were not actually a surf group. The name suggests it. They were a general covers band. They were semi-professional Um, they took keith on when they knew they needed a new and better drum I think their previous drummer got married and had a kid and then you know, that was often it It might not have been for you and me for our love of music But it was for for that guy keith excelled in that band and they knew they weren't going to keep him forever And eventually all roads pointed to a group called the detours which became the who The detours also had an older drummer Who was married with kids? He was about five years older than them They were missing the the vital piece of their jigsaw and the beach comas You know, they knew the reputation of the detours the the beach comas had steady jobs and weren't going to give them up They loved playing. They loved making extra money. They stayed friends All the way through their own lives but they knew that keith was destined for bigger things and there's lots of mythology and legend about how keith joined the who but I almost look at it at like if mathematically you lay out this chart of west london and these bands and these clubs All roads point to keith joining the who. Yeah, those are the points that intersect They're going to have to at some point At some point either keith auditions for them on stage or they hear about him and invite him around Something is going to happen and keith is going to join this band called the detours and all of a sudden Roger p. John into a soul They've got the band that they knew they were capable of having. Yeah, interestingly by the way the beach comas took the who's Old drummer the detours old drummer. They did. Oh, it wasn't intended as a swap But it became a swap as best as I could work it out from what we have of the who's dates And allowing that it was somewhere around their railway hotel residency. It was april 1964 and by by almost complete coincidence I mean when I was writing the book This just seemed very weird. It looked like keith actually joined the who the week I was born And um, you know, just one of those weird weird things. I think yeah That's awesome. Wow From what I've you know, again reading the book He was the missing ingredient. He was what put them forward I mean, it seems like he was the because because he's what he was the you know Kind of a pretty boy look a little bit but also with a roughness to him But is is he what pushed the who over the edge into being rock stars? Yes Yeah, the who without keith it's not gonna it's just I can't even imagine it. I cannot imagine it now you made that point before with the last sort of question and and I it wasn't really right to Confirm it with relation to maybe the beachcomas or the escorts But when keith joined the who The dynamics of the who the most You know, I love the who the the band that has meant the most to me in my in my life I was a fan such a young age And I was listening to their 60s music when I was 10 years old in the 70s 11 I went to see them for the first time when I was 12 And this this band meant everything to me. What I love is these groups where the personalities and the dynamics are a little Or a lot off kilter And so with the who p towns end is this sort of rhythm guitarist more than the lead guitarist It's actually a reason I I love the who Uh, john end to a saw is the lead guitarist but on bass Yeah, and so you you've you've got you So p is almost the the drummer You know, john is almost the lead guitarist But he's the bass player and this frees up keith To be like almost like a lead guitarist and there's a lot of jazz in here And I know your show covers all aspects of drumming and we can talk about keith's jazz influences particularly the big the big band players the the gene crouppers the eric delay knees um lewis billson If i've got all those names right all of those people and then particularly the surf drummers um and the surf music but he brought brought a lead uh musicians Inventiveness to the who now that keith Just thought the drums should be a lead instrument and as far as he was concerned He should be at the front of the stage and actually while we're at it why can't he sing the songs as well? I mean keith really had that mentality But what I what I most love about the who the personalities, you know, the the dynamics are just always fascinating A lot of people focus on the rivalry and the lifelong friendship that's very complicated Relationship between pete and roger who are the only two surviving members now. Sure, but to me The most enjoyable relationship, you know, keith had a lovely friendship with john into his soul But he had an interaction with pete where keith actually worshiped pete He worshiped the ground that pete walked on. He knew that he was with a genius. Yeah, never doubted it. He Utterly worshiped pete pete loved keith Up to a point I think there was a point towards getting close to the keith's death where pete was finding it very hard work But he loved keith but what what you hear on record But then what you particularly see on stage is an interaction One of those second senses like between pete and keith Where pete is kind of like the rhythm and keith is playing the fills and the and sort of leading And they understand each other and similarly It's pete songs roger signing the majority of them keith knew enough about the meaning of the songs and the words But he was emoting the lyrics with the drums. We're so used to sort of You know, somebody's singing i'm sad and then the guitar wails, you know, like a like a nice, you know Just bendy note behind or the strings come in. Yeah, keith could do that on the drums And I mean i'd liken it, you know, you just hear i can't explain who's first single and he's he sums it up he's he's got this little There's a pause and a little drum blistering little like You know snare roll and he's summing up this feeling of I can't explain it goes from there onward somehow his drums Always seem to capture the mood of the song and there's a special like you said it's like a it's like a unexplainable connection while they're playing And and I mean the the age difference kind of makes it a little bit of a big brother little brother type of feel where You know with pete where they love each other, but like you said your little brother can drive you nuts sometimes Especially if it's keith moon It's like kind of kind of pushes you a little bit to the to the limit But you know one thing I think that's interesting too in the history is that we talk about the smashing of the instruments and if i'm not mistaken it was said that Pete smashed his guitar first Pete Townsend and I believe in the documentary they were talking about how he smashed it because a photographer was there or something And then they said the photographer missed it and they're like do it again We'll buy you a new guitar and then after that I guess keith took that Really to heart and then started smashing up his drums all the time and that became a gimmick I mean that became like a thing that people expected to see right? Yeah, which is which is fascinating and I don't think I've ever For all the number of times I've seen a hooring concert. I don't think I saw that I I know that the first time I went to see them. I was you know, so looking forward to this Smashing up of the equipment something that my parents could not understand I I I understood it perfectly, but we can discuss that if In more detail. Yeah, basically. I think the History has it. Pete did it once by accident with a low roof at that same railway hotel by the way where keith supposedly joined the band and The next week he did it. Keith was like, well, you know, I'm not going to be outdone by by pete So he started kicking over the drums drums are pretty hardy instruments They're more hardy than a rick and back of 12 strings. That's for sure Yeah, so Keith could afford to to kick his drums around most of the time you can just set the drums back up I mean if you put a skin through, you know, it it costs something But it's not the same as pete looking at a broken neck on a rick and back are going whoops You know, how do I fix that one? So, yeah, but it became a part of the show and I mean, I love the footage of it um There there were a couple of times you see him doing it later in life where he he looks a little Very angry and out of control And it doesn't look like there's a joy in it But I think initially pete was able to justify what he was doing because he'd been to art school And there was this guy gustav metzer who had destroyed his art and pete had this whole pop art mentality He could intellectualize for for keith. It was just hooligan behavior and You know, britain was full of hooligans. Um, they all loved it. Uh, I think everybody who felt that The that britain was a repressive society which it was Worshiped, you know, love that idea. They were just, you know to take something That's that's you know has value and devalue it and to maybe anger your parents and the older generation at the same time While making this wonderful racket Uh, I you know people people loved it. Yeah, sure. It became their calling card. I mean, I think um The film of them at monterey is a good example where they just uh, that was rented equipment I do but I think it was on the slingerland kit that that night and uh, they hated that equipment So they took extra joy in destroying it at monterey I mean, it's a thing and speaking of the gear. I mean, he's famously a uh, plays premiere drums Was that always the case? I mean that from what I've learned with british, you know, episodes Focused episodes. There'd be haymen. There'd be premiere. There'd be a few but premiere was really the Very popular brand in the day. Um, he had his pictures of lily kit, but um, was he Typically a premiere player most of this his career. Yeah, most of his professional career. So I was about to just look back in the book I think he initially at home had either his first kit with either a paste or a lug pig and But clearly he So the who was smashing up so much gear Yeah, we have to talk about their management kit lambert and chris stamp One of those combos of managers, you know, these days we all know that the music business is more of a business There's room for entrepreneurs feng ali's characters. There were more of them in the 60s managers were like the musicians They were crazy. They would saw it as art. They were Doing stuff. Nobody had done before and kit lambert was upper class. His father was a famous conductor chris stamp was working class. His brother was terence stamp a famous actor that Two distinctly different characters But they would have needed to go out and find a way to get equipment And so they got a sponsorship from premiere drums because they who were breaking it all the time so it's like well, you know, maybe maybe we can get some sponsorship here and yes Keith stuck by premiere drums and the pictures of lily kit is world famous It's been replicated. So, you know officially In in more recent times at the point that I was doing the book and and when I was doing the book Like the internet was in its infancy And I I recall I only emailed about a quarter to a third of the people I interviewed at most Most of it was done through phone calls and letters And but at that point it was still very uncertain who owned different parts of the original kit And and those parts were going for auction, you know, big money at auction And yeah, Keith Keith had that relationship with premiere drums. He built the kit over the years I don't mean he hand built it. I mean he built it in size until there were far more drums than anybody could hit in one setting There was some footage from the mid mid 70s where you're like you have to you're five foot six I mean you would have to stand up and stand on your drum stool and lean over to get to the furthest away drum But god bless you. It does look pretty over the top. 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My favorite thing is the huge led touchscreen, which you can just see your your levels everything Control it all from this very high quality touchscreen The whole build of this is really neat and I truly honestly do Very much recommend this for anyone who's interested in getting into podcasting And having sort of an all-in-one thing for a very low price for everything this can do Check out the link in the description of this episode to see the new drum history gear page on sweetwater Where you can check out the task cam mixcast 4 and a lot of the other drum and studio gear I use On sweetwater. So thanks to sweetwater for sponsoring this episode. One thing that we should we should note as we go is By the age of 19 He had a daughter Correct and he was married at that point Which is pretty young. I mean, I can't imagine. I'm sure people out there listening Have kids very very young. I know when I was 19. I wouldn't have been doing very well with a um with a kid and But also on top of that you're a really a budding rock star. You're becoming famous. That's tough I don't I don't know how much time he was able to devote to um his his young daughter and young family It's kind of he's being torn in two directions really he was he was being torn in two directions he had met this girl and kim And kim kerrigan. She was a just a beautiful young thing that showed up on the scene Rod Stewart tried to go after her as well and uh, kief made it absolutely clear that she was his and by all accounts they just were utterly utterly in love with each other and Yes, she got pregnant at a young age and kief did what seemed correct at the time and married her and This was right around the time that the who were taking off So on one hand the who's management are promoting him as you mentioned at the beginning It's kind of the pin-up much the rogers Dislike um, but kief was the pretty boy. I mean roger's incredibly good looking But in his in his correct way as a working class tough guy Look, yeah Keith was the the pin-up kief was the one who could have been in in in one of the pop groups of the time If he wasn't so so talented just for his looks Uh, he so on one hand the management is promoting him as a pin-up, you know girls He's available on the other hand He's trying to actually live with At first in parents houses, but then they get their own place with a baby daughter and a very very Yeah, his girlfriend's younger than him kim his wife is younger than him at a very very young age And she devotes herself to mandy, which is the daughter But um mandy's own memories of kief are not are not pleasant. They're not easy. She's talked about it. She's written about it And kief was not a good father and he would sort of play with her for half an hour and get bored And it got tougher as as it went along and of course We've got to be honest and kim knew this, you know, um Sure, you've got this beautiful girl at home But you're also 19 2021 and you go to america and the girls are throwing themselves at you So there's not a lot of fidelity going on either. No, no I mean literally it could not be a harder situation for a 19-year-old good-looking rock star I don't I mean if anyone was put in that position. I think they'd have a hard time Um, but it's interesting now as we go and we're trying to you know, kief is a He's famous for his antics moon the loon as we said, which you know We like to keep as as tony and I've said earlier. He's a great drummer. He's a human. He's got a family But was he kind of battling his demons his early demons at this point with drinking and stuff? Or was that sort of in the works? Sure you know one of the A sort of tragedy on learning all this at the point that he joined the who And he was he was very young at the point that he joined the who not not quite 18 He was not drinking And uh, this was a pub culture. He was playing pubs and ballrooms and um places where the audience was frequently drunk the beach comers You know don't like when he when he came to the beach comers. He wasn't drinking and He joined a very Over the top band. I mean for all the fact that pete and jana are perfectly sort of middle class in their own right Roger was really the the working class guy But the who were excessive in every ways and means and um the scene the mod scene which is incredibly important The mod scene sort of lived on uppers the idea that These working class kids I was mentioning who had money would you know earn their money? They was good money and they wore smart suits to work and they made them even smarter for the weekend They stayed up all weekend go into clubs dancing to black american music Dancing to the likes of the who that were playing that music for them cover versions and um There were uppers everywhere and keith just got really really into that and he started drinking a lot and it was disappointing Uh surprising to me and disappointing that people around him like that, you know, his family and the who are having problems with his um What what what definitely became addictions even as early as when they were doing tommy which is remarkable because The drumming on tommy is one of the most incredible drumming performances. You're hearing rock music, but yeah He's 21 22 at that point at most. Um, he's recording tommy when he's 21 22 and he is already You know People are aware that he's got problems. So I have thought that kicked in much more in the early mid 70s But it it kicked in quick. I mean, he's a small guy And he's a pretty thin guy when he starts out and there's not a lot of place to put all this drinking drugs And he was the kind of personality that if somebody wanted to buy him a drink he would say double brandy He's the kind of person who'd like to buy everyone a drink He's the kind of person that would say, you know, you can't leave till I leave Let's you know, let's sample every whiskey bent real brandy behind the counter And he was the kind of guy that if somebody said hey, you want some lepers and showed him a packet He just put his hand in Yeah, and and just throw a bunch down his neck. That's just who he was Yeah, I mean He clearly had like a uh, like like you said nowadays things mental health things are now far more diagnosed He clearly had Serious addiction problems and I remember kind of looking through your book and Watching the documentary and people were saying that like he tried to work out a almost scientific Balance of being able to keep things going seven days a week Or and someone said too he was one drink away from being Drunk again because it was such a high level of alcohol that you know He'd kind of come down a little bit have a double brandy or whatever and then be right back to where he was, uh, which It's he's young though. He can you know, you can kind of get away with with that when you're 20 18 19 20 years old whereas yes, you can yes You can and I did a lot of that when I was younger too And I've I've written a memoir or two and I've looked back and just mean how did I do that? but you you could you could and and You can't sustain it and Keith was unable to to sustain it But there was a lot of fun to be had along along the way and I don't mind talking about Keith's antics as long as we you know Have them within the framework of this explosive live band that I would say At their peak with the best live band in the world And and Keith, you know, there's only three musicians on stage I mean Roger bangs a tambourine a little bit, but there's basically three musicians and if you look at footage from the early 70s Tanglewood's a good one But there's a whole bunch of them and if you listen to the various live records from that time be it live at Leeds or the Isle of Wight or something you can it you there are points when they're off just Doing their freeform stuff and you know Rogers may be banging the tambourine twirling his mic You're just like how is that much noise coming from three people? Seriously, yeah, it's it's it's truly astonishing But along the way, I mean, you know Keith Keith We talk about destroying his drum kits when they were on the Smothers Brothers in 1967 big break for them It was said that it was agreed that the at the finale of my generation Which they were miming to a pre-recorded version they made And that there would be you know a couple of smoke explosions and you know, it would all look great Keith managed to convince somebody to just keep putting more and more gunpowder in his drum kit And it basically blew up the stage set. I it's it's there on film It's it's in it's at the beginning of the kids were all right movie Pete Townsend still to this day says it's part of what turned him deaf Apparently Betty Davis fainted in Mickey Rooney's arms or something like that It's you know, these things are actually hilarious because I mean it happens on television And you know, Tommy Smothers has to roll with it and Pete has to roll with it And I mean, there's just all kinds of stuff goes on There's another another amazing interview with Russell Hardy on British TV where Keith just starts stripping down And it's it's you know, you can see how scared the host is because Keith does Decide to go the whole way and take off his underpants He's just bored of the interview process with the other members of the who So Russell's trying to ask all these serious questions and Keith's just just like It you know Serious, merrius, you know, don't don't ask me to be on the show if you want to keep this serious He likes I mean he is okay with chaos I feel like he's he he doesn't mind things being absolutely chaotic and kind of enjoys being the like the center of like like almost making Straight people, you know what I mean like kind of business-minded people uncomfortable Like that's seems like he gets joy out of it really to to kind of Yeah, I think I think again We can go back to those those roots and that post-war culture which was so stayed and You can understand that older generation just being like we've we've lived through some of them Have lived through two world wars at this point. Yeah, and they're just like we can't you know We can't go through this game just give us this quiet life And then the kids let them down by discovering Well, the americans go and ruin it by by coming out with little richard and chuckberry and then Elvis and everybody It's like what is going on? And these these kids just you know, they took great pleasure in shaking up the older society They they really did and you know, the who's my generation It may be been talked about too much, but it's it's relevant. There was a message that was there Um Pete was really saying I hope I die before rather than become like you I would sooner die That was what you know, he's like everybody, you know, you're old you're old people before your time and um Yeah, that that I mean keith obviously didn't become that or there. We did become physically old Yeah, well before his own own time and that's tragic in its in its own way Many many great records made in the meantime, of course yeah Um, so just to touch on a couple things as we kind of move forward here So I I have written down that the peter I believe dugle butler was his personal assistant, which I don't know if I'd want to be keith moons personal assistant in charge of him I think dugle as they called him Really took on a lot of the weight of dealing with with keith He did because kim certainly couldn't do it and a lot of these rock stars had their kind of man friday Um, they Much more than a gopher much more than a gopher. This was this, you know, a lot of musicians had that that buddy You see it in other forms of music as well Uh dugle to his credit dugle is still with us Um, he wrote one book about keith before my book came out, which is a very funny book dugle kept keith alive Keith did not die under dugle's watch And dugle had been fired many a time and he quit a few times and he was not with keith at the final couple of months and That's that's a whole part of the story as well and dugle's love for keith is enormous but god no who would want that job but Uh, he was maybe the only person who who who could do it and the periods when he had had enough And he did quit or he was fired Are periods where keith Gets in worse trouble than when he's with dugle dugle could always somehow Roll with him do the long nights with him have the fun with him And still make sure not so much that keith got to bed on time But that he woke up in the morning or the afternoon But the main thing being that he woke up which he didn't do that final night Yeah, and there was a story that was I think dugle talking about keith moom was driving home, of course You know drinking and partying and he was going like 120 or 30 miles an hour and he said you know He's like keith you need to slow down And instead of just kind of going fifth fourth third second, you know a stick shift He said that he put it into first locked the wheels rolled the car And then I guess they were okay, and I think he said that keith was just like laughing about it like Yeah, I mean anything that didn't kill keith, you know, he found hilarious pretty much Yeah, and he was able to laugh. He was able to laugh at a lot of this stuff. It's it's a ridiculous time In music history. It's not one that can be repeated and I write a lot in this book because this was something I I kind of knew going into it But I really felt it when I was in it is These I talk about at one point with the managers as well that this was uncharted territory and they were almost like A combination of explorers and pirates Like certain sail on the seas To uncharted waters causing, you know, maybe they're like vikings. I mean You know crossing mayhem They're they're there's a lot of pillaging that's going on a lot, you know, they're nobody There's no blueprint for this. There is nowadays. There's no blueprint Um, initially every band is getting ripped off left right and center once the managers eventually kind of you know Match to get their artists some money Suddenly they're richer than anybody had ever ever imagined all of these people just thought six months and will be will be old news And now now in 1971 Keith is buying an estate in the stockbroker belt But not just any estate being Keith. He's bought this ridiculous pyramid house off a movie director And so now now he's living in a a sort of glass pyramid with five different areas to it And throwing parties and there's a pub at the bottom of the road and he takes the hovercraft to the pub But yeah, they're off. They're often uncharted Uncharted waters musically nobody had ever done stuff like tommy before Before that they'd never done anything like who's sell out before, you know people made singles The record company would package up a bunch of songs for a christmas You know, uh, not a christmas album per se, but something that people could give each other at christmas And and they were entertainers, you know and the Beatles changed that and then along came the other bands We know that the who that the no in some sort of order the stones the kinks did the who And they turned it into more of an art form and none of this had been done before and drummers hadn't drummed like this before either Yeah, I mean, so there's no I mean Keith kind of gave a a limit of like so everyone can look at it and go Okay, don't go that far like that's that's the limit So we we can pull back a little bit. So now there is they they did create the blueprint But even the even the hotel smashing which is famous. I mean, it's just a whole thing. I thought it was Uh, it was interesting that it was talked about how Keith was proud of it And one thing that he did that was kind of silly was they said he would loosen all of the screws and the beds when he left So people would get on it The next guest who's probably just a businessman or a family and the bed would fall apart Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah Keith was a prankster and I think there's a massive difference between smashing something up in a rage which certainly happened at times and uh Deciding because you're never going to pass this way again You're probably going to pay for it anyway And you know, you're only young once and you're a rock star you set about just doing crazy stuff You know like they I mean I would not I I care deeply for for all animals But you know Keith and John thought it great to leave piranhas in people's bathtubs, you know That was the kind of thing that that that they would do as a parting gift in a hotel I know well just let's fill the bathtub with water and put piranha in there That was surprising whoever's got to clean out the room. Let's take all the screws out of something And there is a story that I the more I think about this. I I'm amazed that I I've I've heard The guy on the other side of the wall say that it was true But that Keith needed to get something and his the person was asleep next door So he just got one of his tools and just started, you know, working a hole through the through through the wall Like bit by bit by bit just like a prisoner escaping Um, the water bed story is particularly amusing when Keith tries to get the water bed out of his room and it floods the elevator um That's you know, that's a great one. There's uh, there's a lot of creativity to an awful lot of of what he does Um, throwing cherry bombs Out of hotel windows in new york city tonight the martin luther king has been assassinated Probably not a good idea another creative one But Keith would not have understood uh american civil rights. It it uh, it would have been like he wouldn't have he just He wouldn't have had that big picture. No Interesting. There's lots of them and I was thinking about this. I was like we could talk about those all day But I think it'd be fun for people who are um listening or watching this on youtube They should comment their favorite keith moon stories and I think that would be neat to kind of read what other people think about that Um, although I would just preface uh that they need to verify that uh, you know that they happen because when I research this book um Some of the some of the biggest myths about keith are exactly that and and I will say now because I do not want to See this in the youtube comments. Keith never drove a car into a holiday in swimming pool on his 21st birthday if he had There would be pictures believe it or not. We had cameras in 1967 Yeah, there would be pictures and when you throw in the 21st birthday party, you know, I mean It it didn't happen a lot of other things didn't happen But I found there were more things that did that hadn't been Hadn't been known about and and some of them were pretty hilarious and some of them were pretty frightening as well No, that's funny But I did hear that on his 21st birthday. He was in america on tour It said that they they they got a hundred birthday cakes made to smash in the room Uh, it said keith tripped on the cake fell and knocked out his teeth Uh on a table and had was upset because the party had the end to end because he literally just smashed out his teeth Yeah, so yeah, that's what happened to him. It was with herman's hermit So who were famous famously after monterey they got put on a package tour with herman's hermits Uh, jimmy hendrix was sent out to open for the monkeys. You suspect that had jimmy hendrix and the who um Liked each other a little bit more. They were sharing sort of management Whose managers had started track records and jimmy hendrix was on that and who were they were very worried that their managers were You know, we talked about fidelity earlier Um, but anyway, they were opening for herman's hermits and destroying their gear every night and then hermits would have to follow them I tracked down most of herman's hermits. They all verified that keith slipped on the birthday cake knocked out his tooth I think one of the hermits went with him to the dentist the party did carry on but keith keith missed the rest of it Um, the hermits largely wish they could have been the who I mean that was one of those moments in people's careers Where they're like, what are we doing? This is the future the who? The who is what we should have had the guts to do but they were a very very very young group hermits and You know, they didn't have the balls to do what the who did but they loved the who and they loved having keith on tour with them Yeah, so moving forward here because we we only have tony for kind of a limited time I want to say in 69. I believe was when it said that uh, pete towns and kind of grew And I may be wrong on that date correct me But it said he he got sick of the antics being known for these antics But um, I believe I heard that that uh, keith still wanted to party. He still wanted to smash his instruments He didn't have that art school mind. Uh, so things were were basically changing at that point away from that Uh, you know shocking destroying things antics. Is that fair to say? Yeah, there's there's a lot of truth to that um, pete's manager kit lamb but they had a very good uh relationship and uh kit was the one to encourage pete to write first a mini opera first to write a quick one while he's away Then to do the who sell out then that all turned into tommy And I think kit recognized early that pete was actually a composer in the old-fashioned sense And I I will argue if you you know, you can show me your dictionary definition of genius and I'm pretty sure pete falls under it um, and keith keith's a lot of things but he's not an an intellectual genius but Where it all comes together if you want to talk about that, um, some people think something like, um, I can see for miles is keith's watershed moment I know roger daughtry cites that I I do as well A lot of the who sell out. I mean, I love the single substitute is kind of my favorite song of all time Um, and keith's drumming on that is amazing. You can even hear him scream in the middle when he goes to attack his kit Um, but tommy tommy to me is where it comes together more so than who's next Who's next is the classic who album? To jump ahead glin johns deserves all credit for getting the best out of keith on that He let keith be keith but in time Uh tommy is an oddly unfinished record. It was meant to have strings on it And they ran out of time and money and it's much more acoustic than people realize that the live shows were this powerhouse trio quartet And and was phenomenal, but the the actual album is pretty quiet And it's symphonic and keith's drumming there is he understands at core He can laugh all he wants later about you know, none of us knew what tommy was about And even pete but he gets the story and from the moment he hits the first drum Actually a little bit late on at the beginning of overture He is part of this sort of like Incredible They are an orchestra just just what they're doing and things like sparks which who fans will know is Where those themes come back as an instrumental There's an also a longer instrumental underture and sparks and underture is sort of interchangeable, but The the sparks theme was carried on a lot live. I think that's some of the best drumming You will ever hear because you're hearing an instrumental track that's taking on themes from across a double album And and you're hearing a drummer whose ability to supply Detention or to keep the tension or and release the tension Pete would not be free to do what he does It without having a drummer who can who can like it's ebb and flow. It's like peaking and and valiant and For all that people rightly rightly so when they look at Barbara Riley won't get fooled again Maybe I can see for miles. I would point you to maybe sparks or go to the mirror on tommy and And really hear the genius of keith in in that the the artistry. I think the other songs. I just reference a more like rock drumming done Brilliantly, but there's an artistry of his drumming in tommy that to me is Probably the peak of him in the studio And I may have to go off and think about that because certainly, you know Whose next is just astonishing But there's something about tommy that breakthrough album that showed that rock bands could be artists could be Could write some form of operetta and and do it well That's the point for me And you can I mean people's favorite songs change all the time, you know But I mean he really is a a genius and a very artistic drummer and as you said as a breakthrough Uh, it seems like tommy Set them on financial six, you know explosion where he could buy his I believe is tara or terra His crazy pyramid house, which is just wild but um He and then when the tommy film came out from what I heard he enjoyed acting. He liked Being a thesbian, you know what I mean? Obviously he kind of played himself a little bit because he's you know He's keith moon. What else he's not going to Yeah, play something that's really out of his realm too too much But he enjoyed acting and I an oliver read they were famous friends, right? Yeah, I spent time with oliver read for the book That was pretty much the most memorable interview I conducted I actually I was in the england doing research and I flew to ireland to to meet him And oliver read was another of those people who basically insisted you matched him drink for drink Um, so by by the end of an afternoon in a hotel bar. I was much the worst for wear But oliver oliver loved keith Uh, oliver did I die the sort of you know, his own sort of drunken drunken death? Um, but he loved keith but he he pointed out yes keith I think keith loved being the center of attention. So of course, you know be a film star And and I think that he had elements that could have made him a great film star But oliver said one of the most important things to me that That keith could not be a successful actor because he could not Keep still. Yeah, and oliver read who um had a uh oliver read had a you know a dark side to him Maybe maybe a nastiest street. Some people said that you know, there was a nasty streak to oliver read I um and some people said keith got that later in life. So we'll call them equals But oliver read is that was an actor first Yeah, and he's like, you know that art that you learn as an actor where you have to keep still Um Like like meditation you have to not move keith could not do that and that was the difference and so yes keith Keith's limited acting career Although it's great was limited to playing versions of keith moon. Sure Big but that's what people expect. You don't want him to play some very deep role. Um But I I was unaware of oliver read because it's after my generation But I I had remembered him here in america growing up kind of in the 90s and 2000s from the movie gladiator Well, that's yeah, that's the one he died on the set of he had a heart attack, correct Well, yeah, he took the crew out drinking and um, you know Drank them all under the table and then didn't make it through the next day. So uh, that was Oliver read just got more years out of living like that than keith. He was a bigger He was a bigger guy, you know, the interesting thing is he missed keith. He really really missed keith, but he also You know, he was able to actually say, you know, could could I see keith's now? You know I mean, he actually really was sort of opining to me You know, what would keith have been could he have been he clearly they there was a lot of love larry hagman's another actor Who loved keith? He was happy to talk to me for the for the book There was a lot of love for keith among some of the uh, you know, the most famous and craziest people We've we've known they all loved him alice cooper. They all ringo. They all loved keith. Yeah Yeah, I mean he's everyone's little brother. It seems like it's all fun But you did say before that there was dark sides to him and I believe um I heard you say in that bbc documentary that there was um, he he took everything out on his his wife kim I believe he said he broke her nose a few times. I mean It's all fun and games. It's it's I feel like in those moments You're it's it's all a party until you get home And you're kind of meanest to the people you're closest to if that makes sense because they kind of You know, you see them all the time and he seems like he took a lot out on her Um And he didn't really know how to be a dad like you said it was just kind of fun You know for a couple minutes and then he wanted to move on and go do something else But they got divorced in 1974. I believe right Yeah, close enough. I'll take your word on that. Yeah. Yeah, that's right No, it's right. It's right around then I'm being an approximate but but um, then he met a new girlfriend, right? Which is um Annette. Yeah And they seem to love each other very much as well. Yeah, now that now you've got a bigger age gap though. So, um Kim managed to escape from keith earlier than that. I think the divorce took some took some time Keith never got over losing kim he lost uh, uh, ultimately to him a clagon of the small faces Interestingly his drumming store after he died went to kenny jones of the small faces And I have sort of wondered the only the only other group I could ever see keith being a member of was the small faces He was small um, you know short and he he fitted their mayhem personality more so than kenny jones Um, and they were rivals on the london mod scene, but the small faces were more kind of east london So there was a geographical difference to some extent. Um, you know kim had gotten out earlier keith had other You know relationships and affairs there were two things that marked keith and one was that he was reportedly behind the wheel of his Rolls Royce when um A Just pausing in case it was a Bentley, but it's one of those cars that uh, unfortunately, um Went over his dry his actually his driver Um who was attempting to hear a clear a gang of skinheads out of the way Who were attacking keith's car because keith went and opened a hotel or opened a nightclub and stayed around after it got ugly and who regardless of exactly how it happened keith took the blame Went to court for it. Uh, never got over it. He killed his man friday. He killed his, you know, trusted man friday He was responsible for the guy's death. He possibly drove over the guy's body and then kim um, then he got worse And then uh kim left him and he never got over that He spent a couple of years in LA Um, not the right place, but he it was the dream. It was his pot of gold at the end of the rainbow Of course, he didn't find a pot of gold. He comes back, but he does meet this younger girl She's a bit of a kim look alike except it's a decade later now if she's from Where did I go see if she's from Stockholm and uh, she really loves keith. I mean, she's a model. She's on the scene Um, that famously, uh, she shows up at a nightclub with a with a boyfriend And keith takes such a liking to her that he has the boyfriend thrown out. So then he offers to take her home She said what happened? I I came with somebody's I oh, don't worry darlin. I had him thrown out um, and oh Yes, one way to do it. Isn't it one way to get rid of the competition. She um, she loves him She loves him dearly, uh, but she's not in she's not on the level of of kim But there she's with him the last night of his life and um, there's debate as to whether he truly Proposed to her or not, but certainly he did tell people he was planning on marrying her Wow, one thing I think is interesting. Um, that was mentioned is uh in the the la days when he was living in You know, uh, I guess close to malibu somewhere somewhere around there a couple miles away Uh, this is just crazy. It said he lived next door to steve mcqueen And steve mcqueen was on the manson hit list charles manson And they said that they found manson followers sleeping under keith moon's house and they broke into Keith's house I believe uh, dugle his you know assistant said that and there was just crazy drug use going on and that whole it just It was a chaotic. It wasn't a good time Yeah, and it wasn't interesting. I've been reading elton john's autobiography this this current week and As an aside, he loved keith. I told you at the beginning. They were from the same area He he does say uh, keith like his friends started dying and he said keith moon died from an overdose of being keith moon Which I thought was a wonderful way to put it. Uh, I wish I'd had that for the book actually Um, but I think he also writes about something about the the manson crew showing up I mean He he notes that much as you know elton lived out there for a little bit as well No, there was a darkness. I think to california And I think what he says in in his book is that even though the manson murders took place way before elton was even a star Five years later. There was still and a fear Born of that an undercurrent of of darkness and fear that that that city never got over that which is very Very very interesting. Yeah, there's a couple of famous stories about keith keith and steve mcqueen I I read one of them on the internet the other day that quoted from my book extensively. I was like, okay Yeah, wherever you can get your copy or wherever you can get your clickbait And yeah, I mean steve mcqueen was I was basically drew his line in the sand and it's like my property Your property line in the sand do not cross Yeah, which was a great disappointment for keith because he was used to being that puppy That bounds up to people and he'd be friended every day from oliver reed to larry hagman And a lot more people besides but steve mcqueen was not gonna take it steve mcqueen's very tough gruff american race cars and things and then you get little keith moon jumping around But it it's a shame because I think he he's a pleaser He's a people pleaser keith and he wanted to be liked by people and that's let's party. Let's do it I wanted to keep going but um, I mean we're getting close to the end here But I would say I've heard that he would he would have these huge ups And then he would stay in bed for five days three days to in and just be down and then come back up and It's a lot emotionally. I think that's not an unfamiliar story and and before he got sober Elton john seems to be doing much the same. You know the the the drug use and the drinking becomes greater Bigger and that means your come downs are going to be bigger and longer So, you know keith would party harder And then it would take longer to recover and you you hit on something there that's I think you know is at the core of keith's personality. He did want to be loved um A lot of what he was doing was attention seeking and a sort of fear that he wasn't loved which is Ridiculous because people adored keith But it's not uncommon for people in the public eye And I think musicians maybe even more so than film stars To have incredible inferiority complexes. I mean, you know, they wake up and they see themselves on the front of a newspaper And yet somehow, you know, they think nobody loves them And uh keith interestingly Often would fall back on this idea that he'd never quite joined the who quite never been made an official member I mean, he got his equal royalties from from recording as far as I know, but a little like sort of There was a little bit of that with ringo as well like the latecomers to the group they both of them were the missing link that those groups needed but there was a little bit of uh of of um I'm I'm never quite sure that I was told I'm part of this family and and yeah I mean, but just to confirm your point now, unfortunately There were times particularly in in los angeles and dugle was part of that where you know, maybe Maybe just the curtains would be drawn for for two three days on end And then keith would just gradually get his energy back and go, right Let's you know, let's go rev up rev ourselves up again and out they would go and start the whole process again And gradually people particularly in LA just stopped running with him. They were like We can't keep up with you keith. I mean, you know, he'd call on people and they'd be like, no, not tonight keith not not tonight It's yeah My body needs a break That's rough. Well, well his his uh, as you said before dugle would not he kept a good eye on him. He did not Die on dugle's watch, but I believe if I'm not mistaken dugle left There was the famous story with the tranquilizers, which I didn't realize it said I believe dugle said they were monkey tranquilizers That some girl had given to him on and and keith passed out on stage and the girl a half hour before Whatever it was like convulsing on the floor and got taken to the hospital That's I believe when dugle said I've had enough of this. We're taking tranquilizers now. I mean, yeah, well Monkeys are smaller than humans. I believe they were elephant tranquilizers Okay, so I always heard horse so and when I was horse, you know, but there was something bigger than it was something that would You know knock out an animal bigger than Human. Yeah, and and keith took a lot of them. Yeah, there's the footage There is the sort of eight millimeter footage of that that was back in 73 I mean keith had some more years that was on the quadraffinia tour I think it was the first night of the american tour at the cow palace Where peep famously after after they literally These days bands are cancelling tours left right and center and cancelling dates because of exhaustion Um, literally the roadies you see them take keith off kind of you know, I guess they slapped him around a bit For you know, woke him up. He comes back on the drums and you know the one song later He just keels back and doodles one of four people carrying him off and Pete says something like uh, I think our drummer ate something that disagreed with him And then famously famously says is there anybody out there can play the drums And a 19 year old came up and jammed with him for a few songs and so that was you know, he's whined and died on that one For years. Yeah, that's a dream situation. Yeah, I think dugle was with keith and um If I've got this right, uh, you know, the book is 20 years old. I've I've talked a lot about this It's it you know, I love keith to death and the who is my favorite band, but I think if I've got this right dugle flew back from like quit in LA When keith came back, um They saw each other a few times And maybe keith was asking dugle back and dugle was like, you know, I can't keep doing this but maybe If we've got to get there the who recorded who are you? And it was the first time that keith's drumming was really found wanting basically in los angeles He hadn't practiced. He just wanted to play with the who I told you how he worshiped p He just wanted to be on stage of the who and he was actually More lethal to himself when the who weren't touring because at least when they were touring You know, there was little time for him to To die I know this seems strange, but you know, there'd always be somebody knocking at his door He did a couple of good efforts at it But there would always be somebody that could rush him to a hospital different story at home And his drumming was found lacking on who are you? It was the first time that p publicly at a restaurant took it out and keith told him to ship up or shape out They decided not to tour that album And p took responsibility saying he didn't want to tour But I think there was a lot of fears that keith wouldn't be up for it So keith really decided he needed to get sober and he He made every best effort and he started he got a prescription for a drug called hemineverine Which should never have been administered outside of a sort of hospital scenario. It's it's a it's like a Methodo or something. It's not you know, it's it's it's something that when somebody's in withdrawal you check them into a hospital Or they go into a rehab and you give them this to cope with the withdrawal symptoms He being keith managed to talk it out of a doctor A doctor I tracked down who obviously did not want to talk to me about this but But um that doctor had some culpability, but there was nobody there Dougal would probably have taken a significant number of those pills and and stashed him away And made sure that keith could not take too many. He went on the night of september 6 1978 he went out to buddy holly premiere film premiere that paul mccartney had financed the movie in one way or another and Ironically is seen at a dinner table with kenny jones who is going to take his place in a who And with paul mccartney and with other people who was with annette. He left early I don't know whether watching the film brought back strange memories or whether he didn't want the temptation of being at the Aftershow event because he was pictured at the pre-show dinner And went home. Unfortunately got in an argument with annette and she was fed up with his arguments I think he said something hostile too and she went and slept on the couch He took 26 of these pills And as a biographer and somebody who with all Maybe apart from people like dugal kim Possibly peep possibly roger possibly john. I would say I know a lot about keith I wrestle with whether it was a conscious attempt to take his life I don't believe it. It was an accident to take 26. I don't he wasn't drunk enough that night to do that Or I am inclined to believe that he had been through these cries for help before And I'm inclined to believe that he thought annette would he he would basically, you know You have done an overdose annette would have to call someone including the 999 in the uk And get his stomach pumped and then he could wake up knowing that people loved him It was another cry for help annette loves me. She got my stomach pumped Yeah, she went to sleep on the couch She he'd he'd been rude nasty to her and he was snoring and when she said when she walked back in the room in the morning She just knew instantly it was like she said it was a quietness that You know something's wrong man the irony of overdosing on a drug that is used to get you off of drugs is um It's just too much. You know, I mean it's it's a it's a fascinating story Uh, I believe dugle said one week of life with keith with all the laughter and excitement would be the same as someone's year Or entire lifetime of what they think so I think so and I think keith, you know, I I'm not particularly I'm certainly not religious in any conventional sense. I'm not particularly Spiritual in that sense of a higher being but I do think there are certain people that just like come to this planet and And you wonder where they've come from And keith is one of those, you know, he was not normal He changed music. He entertained people. He suffered for his ability to entertain other people I as a kid was one of many people who lived vicariously through his antics because Although I was a bit of a terror away. I couldn't have been that much of a terror because I was running my own fanzine and all You know run the band He uh, he enlightened lives Um, I do think we ended up, um getting our thrills from the likes of keith and I think we as fans And the younger generations as fans, you know, we have to question our own responsibilities and culpabilities when we want our idols to Say all close to the sun so that we don't have to yeah There is there is some of that and I felt that guilt and you mentioned something earlier that I didn't quite get to to respond to but Him breaking kim's nose three times kim was about the very last interview I got for the book she was kind of tracking me And I just kept calling every two three months and one day eventually she picked up a phone And I went down to austin and I ended up staying the second night I say one night in a hotel and then they told me we hadn't even scratched the surface and I stayed the night with kim and and ian mac and um When I I already had sort of fallen out of love with keith moon on the research But when she told me about she she was like, you know that famous picture of the champagne bottle in the wall and it's framed and Yeah, well, he threw that at my head And you know, he broke my nose three times and she tells me how reactive it was It was tough for me because for the previous hour we've talked about how wonderful he was how funny he was How kind he could be he was lovely to me the one time I met him but um There was a nastiness there and it and it did kick in and at the end of the day I think that we the age of 18 you you can't really know better But I think we as a society take some responsibility For wanting these people to live like this and die like this. Yeah, I mean, I think it's a drug addiction He's just plain tired. He's probably angry from his body. I mean his body's probably mad at him You know what I mean like it's it's just too much. Um So if anyone wants to read a whole lot more about this check out the book Dear boy the life of keith moon. You can get it anywhere There you can I should say that the american edition is the same book under a different name They thought dear boy was too homoerotic So they called it moon the life and death of a rock legend Okay I do occasionally get somebody popping up and going. I don't know which book to get it's like whichever one you want to get And they're the same book the british paperback does have an afterward that I wrote a few years later with extra information So, yeah, I'd lean towards the british one. Yes. Yes. Okay. That's what I got exactly and I got it And you can you can find it and I got it from england and it came here pretty quickly Um, I will say as we as we get tony out of here because he has another call to hop on Tony you host a podcast called one step beyond I think now might be a good thing just to tell people Where they can find you on your website to learn more about you and they can kind of do a little research And all that kind of stuff sure so finding me is pretty easy tony Fletcher dot net And if you want to contact me from there, there is a little contact page. Yeah, one of those little contact pages I do get those and um Yeah, there's a bunch of other books there. They're all on the front page. Um, so I'm I'm not going to tout them all right now I'm very proud of my books. I've written a lot about music and I have a second memoir that's uh Be kind of going out to the editors right now um And I also just I do also Work with kids around music and a rock academy up here in woodstock Which is we had the original paul green figure who was the the model for jack black in school of rock And so I have the fun of doing that which keeps me playing and keeps me working with with with kids And I have a love of the outdoors. I'm an ultra runner And a traveler when I can and so my podcast one step beyond is actually more about the outdoors and and and You know the tagline is positively engaging with the world outside our door And you know, I'm one of those people who sort of got through Um, I didn't have any particularly crazy years But I like being around and I like making it to old bones and I want to make it to older bones And so this is a place for people who are adventurous not not trying to live like sober lives necessarily It's not about that. It's just people who want to you know be doing stuff So that's what you can find that so that podcast is available wherever you look for podcasts one step beyond Maybe add my name if more than one show comes up and you'll find yes Yes, and I'll put everything in the description and all that good stuff Um, Tony, this has been awesome. I'm so glad we could make it happen after You know a couple months of trying to do it and this is just I think we've done, you know, keitha good Uh service with his legacy of you know, the all the good stuff the funny stuff some of the bad stuff Um, it's something to look at and learn from so again if you if you want to learn more Dear boy or just moon. I'll put the description the link in the description. So Tony, thank you so much for being here my friend. I've had a great time talking to you. Thank you By I'm saying congrats on becoming a dad again. Second. Thank you. Enjoy it. Appreciate it. Bye now