 Welcome everybody back here on Segal Talks at the Markley Segal Theater Center at the Graduate Center CUNY City University in Midtown in Manhattan. And we are restarting our series of talks on theater and performance during the time of Corona. From March on, we had 90 sessions with 150 artists almost 50 countries focusing on how artists think, how do they work, what's in their mind during this unprecedented time we are all experiencing right now and after a break now we are back focusing still of course on the ongoing catastrophe that crisis or reality is far stranger than any fiction movie we have seen and where we know there's good ending on the Netflix series at the moment we don't know, there's still uncertainty. So we are looking at new ways that will express what has changed, things have changed already and theater and performance will be different and we are trying to evaluate the moment nobody knows really what will happen about I think while discussing while talking while listening perhaps it will help to see what is emerging. Yesterday we had the great theater historian Marvin Carlson with us as a start, Marvin did point out that in the history of theater the moment we are going through is unparalleled. Even in the time of the plague in London or Shakespeare's time theater companies could go to the countryside, to the castles, theater would happen also was never on such a global scale. So what we are experiencing now is something completely new and we are deeply, deeply affected by this and everybody but especially theater artists who now in most countries still cannot go out, cannot work or if they do is low capacity seating in productions here in America everything is still closed. I think the MAP, the opera just announced today they're gonna be closed for another year. Seeing artists still haven't been paid. There's no theater open, the restaurants still are not open, they will open and we are experiencing next week with 25% capacity. It's a disaster, it's a very big disaster for theater artists here in the US who have not supported in a way they are still supported in Europe or perhaps in other places. And there will or as a matter of fact in Canada not only corona, the time of corona is threatening and endangering what we do. Of course also political circumstances, situations, climates as we know so well here in the US are changing what we thought perhaps is something we can always count on the access to the arts, free access to the arts as we have access to healthcare, access to education and very, very dramatically actually concerning messages are coming out of Budapest in Hungary, a great country of theater there's a great, great history. We use the parents' mourners and everything is a great tradition. We also film and theater has always worked a hand in hand and at the moment that's significant and the big school, the University of Theater and Film in Budapest is going or is forced to go to a changes and there's a big resistance from student body but also from faculty. So we're gonna hear now what our colleagues are going through, our friends and artists in that time of corona, a difficult time, a very high numbers actually also in Hungary has been denied for a long time that it was actually a problem but additionally there's a devastating I think situation and we're gonna hear more. We have three representatives from the school with us. There's Andras Furgash, Andras welcome with us. He's a professor at the theater, University of Theater and Film in Budapest and author, playwright, essayist, illustrator and script writer. He published also novels and been translated in 19 languages. He is also someone who adapts classical work from literature of Loubert, Hansom and Dostoyevsky and many, many other works. He also of course writes original plays of work of his own and he worked on plays from Kleis, Sabo Magy, Genie, Vedikind, Horvat, Mahler, Pinter, Inter-Insulations and the great Peter Nadasch, the great, great Hungarian writers for parallel stories. I think it is so he also put onto the stage. Representative from the students is with us. This is Hannah Milovitz and she is there in the bachelor program and she's interested in applied theater, theater in education and drama, pedagogy, this focus on community arts in theater. That's what so many of the theater artists talked about actually in the Segal talks, the focus of community and how to really reconnect to what perhaps has lost. She's an intern at the Kava Drama Theater Education Association and also studied acting. And then with us is the director or rector of the school at the moment, the great Alasdair Upor. He's a Hungarian dramaturg, literary translator, essayist and the teacher, everybody in Hungary knows him and everybody in European theater knows him. He's a great communicator and a great example of Hungarian work. He has translated novels and fictions and over 50 stage plays. He has published book on theater film and also contemporary circus which is a very significant part that we also have circus artists here in our talk. So he is director since 2019 and he has really worked also with everybody as András said, you know, in Hungarian theater. So welcome all of you. Thank you. So what time is it now in Budapest and where are you in Buda or in Pest? I am in a little village, not far from the town, so about 40 kilometers from Budapest in my quarantine as they used to say it. So I very rarely move in the town only when I have to defend the university of Laszlo and Hanna. I was once a guard there. There is this honorary thing standing before the building on the kind of balcony. So I'm in a little village. I don't know, Laszlo is in Pest, I think. Used to be. I'm in Pest, which is the flat side of the two sides. I'm in Pest, I'm at home. So Laszlo, we hear news, many, let us know, David Gotthard and other news we get from Hungary. It is really, really, I think a moment of deep crisis and deep concern. What's going on? Give us a little bit of insight. What are you doing there and what is happening? What has happened? Well, I try and be brief and I hope it will not be very boring. So obviously before the background of this global catastrophe, the virus, our problem is insignificant. But for us, Hungarian artists, theater and film and media artists, it really is very, very sad. The university of theater and film arts, Budapest, is probably the smallest universities in Budapest, but we made big waves. And we'll talk about that, those waves later. We are now in week four of a sit-in initiated by the students. On the last day of August, the leaders of this university stood up and left their positions. We all resigned. And I, as the academic leader of the school, the members of the Senate, or the heads of the departments, we all resigned from our positions with one month of leave. That means in six days, we will officially be left. That same night, the night when we resigned, the students decided after a big street feast that they would occupy the building and never leave and would never let strangers, in other words, people whom they don't want to let in, they would not let those people in. Now, what? Why did you resign? Why did you resign? Yeah, exactly. I try to make this long story short, but basically, some universities in Hungary are forced to go through a transition from states around universities to so-called private universities. Private universities controlled by foundations and boards of trustees. And there is nothing wrong with that in principle, but the way it is in Hungary, it's more like privatization of universities by the present government because the board of trustees is made of members who are appointed for life. And normally, people who are very close to the present government or the prime minister himself, that is one problem. The other problem is that the law that was implemented would let a very, very wide range of possibilities open as for the sharing of responsibilities and powers between the Senate, that is the parliament of the university and the board of trustees on the other hand. Very briefly, what happened was in the need of foundation of the university, the new leader foundation of the university and the operational regulation, the new board of trustees made very clear that they want to grab all the rights of the Senate and keep it for themselves. In other words, the autonomy, the economic freedom that belongs to the university, that is a long tradition not only Europe but all over the world. The university autonomy is fatally wounded. And that was the point when it became clear at the end of August, that was the point when the leadership decided we don't take part in this. We don't want to be part of that chain of power that would regulate the school by these board of trustees. So I hope this is clear. I don't want to go into details. If I understand right, could one say let's say in American, our university, the Republican party, for example, Trump would say it's gonna be privatized now that city university. And I will put party members who I appoint for lifetime in charge, they might not even have been in the university business and the Senate or a council of universities will be shut down. It's actually a political party will be in charge of national educational institutions. That's right. You must know, just so I, excuse me, I just, you must know that this is a part of a long, long process that began 10 years ago when they are started to start their program, their culture of the destruction program. And now two years ago, the Central European University was forced to leave Hungary. You may have followed this. Yes. Soros is the common denominator of all demonic enemies. So they have something common with Trump. And also now the Academy of Sciences is under the heel of the government. So this is just part of a very, very strong push. I just want to say it's not only with the universities. It's a very consequential thing that they are doing since they are second time in power, the fittest government. Hannah, how, you are a student. So you are the force week in strike or sitting. So tell us a little bit. First on Sunday night, when we made this street carnival, which Laszlo talked about, when we went inside the building on the evening and we occupied the university, it was a very big day because that was the day when the Senate resigned and they quit. And that was this carnival, which was very uplifting. And a lot of people came and a lot of supporters came and there was also music and dresses and speeches. So it was very, very good. And after that, there was a storm, which came and we went inside the building and we didn't come out. So there was a big countdown on midnight when we said that at the end of the countdown then we occupied the university. I'm very curious, Hannah, because although I teached for 10 years now at the university, was this a spontaneous thing or did you think about it? Because this is a big discussion that this is made by Hidden Forces, what the students did was manipulated by Laszlo, by Osher, whoever. Was this a spontaneous thing or you had a plan, a master plan, how to do the things? I'm curious. But it definitely wasn't pushed by the teachers or the leaders of the university. This whole model change process started in the spring and in the whole summer we made demonstrations and we made forums between the students and we think about how could we represent ourselves and how could we protect our university, the autonomy of our university. So of course we thought about occupying the university too but it wasn't a decision. So it was spontaneous but also we spoke about that opportunity too. So students are sleeping, they're staying overnight or they go in and out of the house at the moment. How does that look like? Well, it's a little special because in this main building there's also the dorms. So there are also the dorms so people, students live there too but we also brought their tents. So people who are not living in the dorms also sometimes sleep inside the building, yeah. And that is my main worry in times of virus. So like a good and bad mother, I keep warning them that we shouldn't play with fire. And of course they are very aware of this and they... We have a very strict COVID protocol. Strict regulations. Yeah, which we made and we also consulted with doctors and also with the leaders of the university. So we are very focusing on that. But in the big picture, students put their life at risk to fight for a freedom of an academic freedom that has been there. I don't know how long was the university in existence and how long did it exist in the current... 155 years. Yeah. 155 years. It's a big, big tradition that they are breaking now. This number is... And this institution really represents all these 155 years, what they want to destroy now. What I want to add to Hannah's thing is that now you can read on Facebook and other places that there are menacing groups now that want to attack the students physically. They want to occupy some free groups of the government, some youngsters. So it's a very aggressive environment. When you are there in the street, it's a little street, Voskutso, it's a very happy feast. It's a wonderful place. A lot of conversations, very intelligent, very good conferences, teachers and students and everybody. A little bit outside, a little bit back, stepping back, yes, let's say I'll finish now, is the pictures changes. So there are many, many dangers now, not only ideological, but physical dangers. Yes, Latsi, please, sorry. No, I didn't want to interrupt. I just wanted to sign that at some point, I would say that yes, there are threats, but they are very sparse and stupid. I suppose they are, you know, as Kaiser's not real threats, but on the other hand, an extremely huge wave of solidarity is pouring from everyone, from everywhere in our society. And you must know that the Hungarian society in general became very skeptical, doesn't really respond to challenges, doesn't really raise solidarity. And somehow it has changed over the last four weeks, over the last four months, actually, because the actions, the protests, the demonstrations began early spring. And of course the peak is the sit-in. So the Hungarian society seems to open their eyes and react eventually, finally. And also the international community, I mean, hundreds and thousands of supporting letters and offerings from universities and institutions from outside. Alma. Yeah, I also wanted to add that you said that we are putting our lives on risk. I wouldn't say that. It sounds very heroic, but... I wouldn't like to think about that. No, no, we put on risk our education and we put on risk our free time and we do, it's an enormous big work to do that, to keep up the occupation, but I don't feel my life in danger and nobody does, I think. And to the university, so a lot of people who came to us are supporters. So sometimes there are people who want to cause trouble or threat us, but they don't really very dangerous or aggressive yet. What I meant, sorry, that the communication in the governmental media is very, very hostile, very, very aggressive, mendacious, et cetera. And Budapest is an opposition town. So if you have a lot of people coming there with food, also I brought there some food, which my wife cooked for them, is a sign that Budapest is an opposition city, but the country itself, a lot of people are not interested in this conflict in my little village, which is not far away. And a lot of people eat the propaganda of the government. I just want to say this. So I'm very happy that a lot, I saw with my own eyes how people spontaneously go there and help the students and talk there. And this is a wonderful event. It's a historical event as Laszlo beautifully phrased in his departing or opening speech. I don't know because he gives now these speeches that it's a historical moment and it is. But the situation is very precarious because this is a strong government with a very strong popular support. And we must know that. So let's not speak about all Hungarians are supporting or many. Most of the Hungarians are not interested. I mean, in the country, not in Budapest. And the government is very, very strong in their will to do their program, which he already 20 years ago declared in his usual yearly speeches, which he holds. Laszlo. Yeah, what I was going to say is, and I hope I don't repeat myself, is compared to the usual darkness or uninterestedness in public matters. This time, we experienced something that we haven't over the last several years, even in case of much bigger institutions like the Central European University or even the Academy of Sciences. They are much, much more important than our school. But for some reason, the actions of our school, the way the students act, and of course, the way the teaching staff act, raised empathy and sympathy we have not experienced before. And what we failed to mention so far, the students organize wonderful, wonderful public events that are extremely popular. And I hope Conrad will tell you about those events and actions too. I didn't want to talk about that, but I can talk about that later too. But I wanted to say to what you said that it means a lot to us. And I think it's a very big achievement that on Tuesday, we went to the countryside to other Hungarian universities to meet with other students from other universities. And we made forums and they started to organize themselves to support us on one side and the other side. They want to find solutions for their problems too. So they also started actions, yeah, or just speak about what the problems are the good things on their universe. The students are magnificent. They have press conferences which last three minutes. And in three minutes, they can say everything. And they beautifully designed the whole building which became a symbol in Hungary, an art symbol, et cetera, with these stripes, red and white stripes. It's marvelous what they are doing. The whole picture is darker, of course, but it's a wonderful thing to observe as a sympathizer. But there is, I must add, as a realist Hungarian writer, there is a lot of indifference also. The incredible flowing of the international support is really, I never experienced this till now, but we know the limits of it. You know the limits of it in authoritarian systems. Yeah. Tell us a bit about the school. If I'm right, I mean, even I, when I was a student, especially the film school, but also the theater school in Budapest, it was regarded of the highest level. There's Bacon's Field in London and the Berlin Film Academy, but the Budapest School for, especially when it came to crop and film, this is where people went, the camera, people, others, but also for directing and great students. So tell us a bit, and also in theater, I think most probably every significant director or designer people came to that school. Tell us what is the philosophy of the school that for so long operated? What are your visions, your ideals? How did you teach theater and film? Well, I think part of our tradition is change. I mean, we've been with the tradition, but the constant change is also part of the tradition. And I know it sounds very general, but it goes from generation to generation. We keep including the new talents in the teaching staff. So, you know, students would become teachers and then professors, et cetera, et cetera. That's not a philosophy, that's just a part of the tradition. But what may be interesting for American and international audiences, the education is very much practice-based. There is very little academia, academic studies are just a very, very tiny portion of what we do. The majority, 90% of the teachers are people from the profession, the highest level theater people and film people and television media people teach at the university. And our practice is the ground and the top of our education. Everything derives from practice of theater, film and media and everything is fed back to practice. We have very, very small groups of students, five, six to 15 people in a group. We call them classes just like in little schools and the master, one or two or three masters would go with this class for the whole duration of studies. And of course, she or he would invite other professors, other teachers and she or he would pick, I mean, hand-pick the other teachers and decide most of the curriculum. But it's basically the master-disciple relationship, which is the basis for the whole education. But the students also merge. So students of one field would work together with students of the other field and from day one, they would work on film and film productions. And most of the exams are either preparations for exams or productions themselves. I don't know if it gives you a clear picture. It's very familiar, very close-knit community, very familiar relationships, fatherly, brotherly relationships. It's a very intimate community with great artists as teachers, but who are also there physically. I had students, my students now, which I was teaching last time in the film school, they got their diplomas now this year. So I finished now, in fact, teaching at the university as a class master, whatever you call it. And they are calling me like I would be their father. It's all finished. They come to consult me now. It's a very intimate, very intense relationship with your students. And it's also part of the big tradition. And this is now, what's happening now is trying to destroy this very sensitive fabric of relationships. And I'm a little bit afraid that they will succeed even if they don't succeed, so to speak. Yeah, you know, when you get a message on messenger at three in the morning, hey, Prof, we've been listening to the music you showed us the other day during class and we've been listening to it three times this morning. And that message would come to your phone at three in the morning, that kind of relationship. Very typical. Yeah. It's hard to imagine how appointees of a political party would even be able to create such an identity, such a passion also for a craft. And also have the know-how. Hannah, for you, why did you go to this school instead of something else? And what are you afraid, what will change if the plans go through? I went to the school because I wanted to work in a field of theater. First, I thought I would be an actor, but then it came around that it's not the way for me, but I also wanted to work with people. Or I also thought about that I would be a teacher, but that wasn't a place for me neither. So I searched for a place where I can mix education and theater together. And I heard one of my friends that she's on this bachelor program. So I applied and that's why I'm here. And I'm very happy because I very find my place, I think. So I feel that I lost this. So I have a very good classmates, the field when I will work in Hungary, it's very new and inspiring and the people are very open. And my teachers are also partners for me. So I love this relationship, like we were colleagues from the beginning. So in my faculty, the relationship between teachers and students aren't like that, what Andres and Maslow told, that this parents relation, but the partner and the colleague relation. Yes. No, I did mean that I am a father figure, but they use us also as, you know, there was a big discussion in the right, in the press of the government, they said the children, the children should listen because Hungary, how about all means the listener, the students, the word for student in Hungarian is listener, how about all. So they said, they should be silent and listen. This is what the government spokespeople said. And of course, I'm with my students, we are friends of course, but the father thing is when they come to ask advice, to seek advice about life problems, not about professional problems, but to get into this school, you must know it's a big prestige in Hungary to get into this school. There is, I don't know, lots of you will know how many times more people want to get in that they can take, how many, what's the number lots of people? Well, the average is 50 plus times, so one in every 50 or 60 or 80 applicants would get in school, depending on what profession, I mean, actors, directors, 80 times more applicants than what we could admit. It's a hugely, hugely popular institution in Hungary. Hannah? I forgot to say that the main thing, which I fear of losing is that I think in our university, everyone is, so the teachers are interested in the students about who they really are, what do they want, what do they see the words, and then everybody is constantly asking questions about the word and not say, people don't say that the Hungarian people like that are the words like that, black and white, but we always ask questions and always search for truth and always, yeah, yeah. But you know this big word around us, and I fear that with this new system, people would want to tell me what I have to think. But isn't that normal? Isn't that normal? Isn't that the basic thing of education that you ask questions instead of giving statements? Yeah. I mean, that's normal. What I want to add also to the whole situation, it came out through the analysis of lawyers and legal people that the government is moving or this committee, or I don't know curatorium, how they call it, is moving on a totally unlawful territory. They don't know what they are doing. They are in such a hurry that they are doing things which are not lawful at all. It's not in the original law which they accepted in the parliament. They were so eager to occupy this university. Last I can give you more details about this, but I read all the stuff about it every day, of course, what they publish, is that they are totally unlawful. Now in many things what they are doing with the university, isn't that true, Latzi? Yeah, but I'm not sure we should go into details. It's actually very boring and depressing, but Andrash is right. Now as the day comes closer, when the leaders are gone, I mean, in a few days' time, and they need to find a solution for this, and instead of going the rightful way, they decided to break the law, which is also very depressing and we'll see what will happen. But I don't think we should work with the details. So I'm sure we can tell you loads of very bad things about ourselves. So basically there is even the legal ground of which the government is taking these actions in the name of the government. They are not sound, they are not approved, and it's not the role in that sense of the government to privatize art schools. It's a shocking development. And as Andrash said, news we heard from Hungary, festivals shut down, international festivals are just not given any more funding. Exchange of artistic leaders, of theaters. I think one politician even made a comment, we don't want those riff-riff place from New York anymore. We have enough Hungarian homeland writers, you know, there was the exchange of light leaders of universities, directors, as you also pointed out. So it's like a whole machinery working in cutting down discourses of flowers of different colors on the Hungarian fields. What is interesting, and I agree what Lars was said, you know, the big institutions also have been totally integrated. Soros Foundation, who we think is doing very good work. And of course it's controversial. People have different opinions, but this is what they do. And it is a significant and also successful and is a great representation of Hungary, of Hungarian thinking in the world. But that theater seems to be getting the attention we had in our Seagull Talks, an Indian playwright, Abhishek Mundar, who said, I have a small theater company, I do small plays. And I wonder if you asked me if that's important, what we do? Well, the government thinks so. They shut us down, they censor our plays. He says big movie theaters, with perhaps much more critical scenes, nobody cares. TV shows with millions of viewers don't seem to have that effect, that deep connection. So I think it's a good sign that it does matter and that some part of Hungarian population seems to be understanding this is going too far. Something is wrong. And it is truly a shocking that in a tradition of enlightenment of 150 years of openly teaching of the arts where you ask questions instead of giving answers, you know, that actually all great art should give, not answer, they just ask better questions. But tell us a bit, who came out of this school? Tell us a little bit of the success stories of who we hear a lot of the Hungarian filmmakers, the documentary makers, the long, long hour films that us are admired and, but is there a style that you have created at that school? Well, just, I think you should remind our listeners to a few names, like the great cinematographers, Bill Mozikmont and László Kovács. We have created an art school a long time ago, but also Iudiko Enyadi, whose work won a lot of prizes and attention, and then Géza Rörik, who played the lead in Charles's song, et cetera. Some, et cetera. For the theater artists, you wouldn't know loads of names, but maybe even people here would know Tomás Ocha's name who directed several plays that traveled the world. As I said, and of course, younger people too, but you may not know them, so there's no point in naming them. There was a long tradition of the Stanislavski-based acting method, and it has slowly changed, gradually changed. So one basis of the actors' training is the Stanislavski method, but also the musical and physical training is very, very important. And over the last several years, we started new, we spread on new fields as physical theater, the puppetry is fairly new in our school, of course, not in our art, not in our theater, in the school. 15, 20 years physical theater training, which is very, very, very strong and very successful, goes only back 10 years. We also experimented with making up new curricula for combined studies, like our classes would have the same basis of education, but from day one, they would work together on productions, et cetera, et cetera. So I think all in all, there is no general style. It all depends on the artists who are invited to teach. The theater's style is still much closer to the realistic Stanislavski-based, et cetera, et cetera, but not so exclusively as before, especially the younger generation of the 40s and 30s, now they do other styles. And as for the film, the Hungarian school, I suppose, has always been in the forefront and it was one of the flagships of cinema education. So I'm actually quite proud of the school and I know it sounds very cheesy and what else should this man say? But I really mean it, especially because the infrastructure of the school is very, very poor and the school is very much underfinanced. The international success of our students is really fascinating. Just one example, every single year there's a student Oscar competition and the only school in the world, I repeat, the only school that had films nominated for student Oscar three years in a row is our school. In one of the three years, the student also won the prize. So that is not just our pride, but it also shows that there are really, I mean, you know. No, this school is for real. There are great schools also in America, but as some say, perhaps also on every campus, all of a sudden the theater department came up or a film department, this school that you are leading is an exceptional jewel, I think, in experimenting with arts education and also in the field of practice to have real results and also your students, your work in the field afterwards and also as a sign of acknowledgement and respect, they come back and teach. It's a living organism. I think I once was and visited the school. Also when I was still a student and later on I was highly, highly impressed even as you point out. It seemed always underfunded compared to other institutions in Western Europe who had, I would say, much more available. Here is a question. Can I say just one thing? In Bucharest, the film school is much better funded than in Hungary. So it was also a governmental decision here to hunger it out. They started to under finance it year after year. They squeezed the money out of this university. So it's poorer than it could be normally. Yeah, something that the country should be really proud of. Hungary that has contributed so much to the history of modern art to modernity. And it's a great disappointment, I think, for the world that tradition seemed to be in danger after the opening of the wall, that in the contrary, it seems the clock seems to go backwards. Yes, Leslie? But we must add, and I don't want to open a new topic, but I must add that the board that was appointed, they claim and they promise that they would bring a lot of money. They would build a wonderful infrastructure and everything will be just wonderful and beautiful. But what they actually say with other words at other moments is quite frightening. So they promised to make everything shiny and happy, but it is very much contradicted by their other statements because three people on this board have actually behaved in a very, very hostile way much, much before they were appointed. So that is also, you know... Their strategy is, this government strategy is to pull the money. They think that they can buy everything with money. They can buy talent with money. They can buy future with money. So I was visiting now a few days ago, MOME, that's the other university that went through the same process, but not in four months, but in seven years. So it's a big difference, you know, this privatization of the system. It's a beautiful compass. Of course, if you read, if you go behind the surface, they have taken a lot of liberties and a lot of autonomy also there, but much more gradually. Here we saw that there is a frontal attack by one person who was hurt, who is frustrated, who wants revenge. And this was a frontal attack very badly timed. In other spheres of literature, I'm a writer and, you know, they created a very sophisticated scholarship, so to speak, where a young writer who died with 50 years, which they very generously threw out to the writer's community without looking at their worldviews, without judging their, or they are liberals or conservatives or nationalists. And it functioned quite well in a way they could sow division between the, so to speak, the liberal writers where I'm a member of. So they will, I'm sure that they will put a lot of money into a wonderful campus, which will be dead. That's my very stark opinion, culturally, artistically. That will be a beautiful building half dead. Let's be optimistic, not fully dead, because for my country I hope that. I just wanted to add this. Hannah. I'm listening. Yeah, it's, it is quite, it is stunning that in Europe in the times we live in that this, these things do happen. I, we do believe that arts are free or they are not free. There's not a lot in between this freedom of research, freedom of the arts, reasons of opinion, freedom of speech or there's not. And one cannot have great, gradual transitions. And it's like someone said was pregnancy or you are pregnant or you're not the same as with the arts. Are they free? Can they do? And their job is to criticize. I remember the drama talk from the folks, Bruno, the Lynn Sebastian Kaiser who said, we were the most radical left-wing theater. We did whatever we attacked the city of Berlin, the politicians, but ultimately we proved their point that art is free. And the city is working, you know, so he said, so ultimately we proved, you know, the system and that it worked, but it was a real exchange. They felt, you know, they really fulfilled their mission to talk about immigration, to talk about the devastation that this leo, neocapitalism brought into the city, the changing of neighborhoods. And also the loss of a utopian ideas, you know, that happened when the wall opened. And so many people who also walked on the streets who, who demonstrated on the east side also for, for a new vision that this was felt that was ironed over. So, so if they would be smart, they would say, do whatever you want. You just show that we let you do and we still do. So why, why that insecurity? Why are they so obsessed to, to rule and regulate a tiny film school in the, in the heart of a central, central Europe. And I know you have big supporters. I think Salman Rushdie, Helen Mirren, Kate Blanchett, people came out to bat for you who know the importance of education, of good education, of an open and free and also affordable education. How much is it for a student? How much will you pay for a year to go to that university? We don't pay at all because in Hungary you have five years or no more, six, six years. The country, the states pays your education for six years. Sorry, sorry, I must say. If you, if you run out of these years and some of the students have already graduated, graduated in other universities then they have to pay. And for a semester it's, I don't know how many dollars is there. I only know in foreign, I'm sorry. Maybe I can count it. A lot of money. In Hungary and average it's, it's a lot. Yeah, still here in America and private universities, which often offer really also good education, but it's fifty, sixty thousand dollars one year. You know, and of course, you know, private university where the private is, people will start to charge admission. Things, things do change. I would like to ask you guys the other way around. If let's say the government would say, listen, we have that money. We want to have the new China, shiny buildings and invest in the economy. What would you do? What would, let's say you would be asked to create that new thing as a student also. What would you do? What's your vision? What's, what do we need in that time of Corona where there's time to reflect and to think what do you feel should be done? What would you guys do if you get big resources, the ones you don't have? We definitely need a new campus because the one we have right now it's melting down and it's too small. So first I think we need a new campus. No, it's a fact that this, this school with the long and good tradition of 155 years have never had a campus as such. Yeah, we have separate buildings. We have separate buildings and none of them was built for educational purposes, or theatrical or, you know, sorry, one was a temple. The other was a brothel. That's very important. And the third was a private villa for a very rich aristocratic family. These are the three buildings, different buildings, not far from each other, but you know, and you still have those little rooms in the brothel and you still have those temple-like features in the main building where the things happen now. You really must be in love with the whole spirit of the school and in love with the education to keep up the spirit because it is kind of poor. Whenever we have visitors, meetings or workshops, I always pray for them to leave before they need to go to the loo. Because I mean, I'm joking, of course, but the facilities, the old infrastructure is very... But this is not the time to... Anyway, if we have the money, yes, we would build a campus. If we have enough money, we would hire all kinds of people who should teach, but I don't think we would ever give up on our ideas of the academic freedom and the freedom of art. And I think this is what's going on now, that there are promises, everything will be wonderful if you give in, but people don't seem to want to give in. What they imagine now, these people, that some of their actors and directors will teach classes parallel to the original teachers. But this is the case which will on the great French poet said that the fly in the milk, you know, if a fly is in the milk, you can drink the milk. Now it's the revenge of the mediocre because what happened in this university is that they invited always the best people, the possible best people to teach. It took a long time. They invited also Otty Lavignanski, the guy who is the crusader to destroy this institution. They invited him and he participated not very fully, but he did also some little work there. He could have done it from the inside if he was really interested. What's very important here is that the best people should teach, they should, we should, the university should keep this aspect, this intimacy, this friendship or master students relationship and always be open to the new things. And this is what happened under Russia and this is what happened under the director who was before him, that he was always an open eye to invite a new face, a new idea. And in the last 15 years we had a lot of new courses and a lot of new people coming in. It's an open institution with the best people. Sorry, just to be a serious answer to your question, Frank, if you have the money and the time we would go through all the discussions, debates, negotiations you need before you go through a change because no one denies we need changes and we would be extremely happy to have the time, maybe the money too, but the time and the quiet space to think through and negotiate and debate how this school should change. What we are rubbed now is exactly the time and the space where you could have a debate on all this because I'm sure those people, the people who impose their bill on us, they have wonderful ideas, they may have wonderful ideas, but by throwing a hand grenade in before they enter the building they stopped us from negotiating, they stopped us from accepting their views, their ideas, etc. In an interview I gave a stupid metaphor, but I'm sorry, I repeat this. There's a huge difference between lovemaking and rape and what has been happening now is much closer to rape than lovemaking. Do you all feel that the time of corona that it happens now is a coincidence? Do you feel they move? They did this now because it might be easier? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's easier, but it's a program that they are doing consequentially. You must see that too. It's one step on the long road through the destruction of this, what we call democracy, western democracy. Hungary is an authoritarian country today where the prime minister thinks that if a theater is playing Richard III, it's about him. It means that it's an authoritarian society. When I was a young dramaturg and my theater wanted to play the merchant of Venice, it was forbidden because the guy in the party thought it's about him. He's Shylock because he was a Jew. And now we are in the same situation, absolutely a very same situation. Coronavirus is a very good pretext everywhere, not only in Hungary to do many things. We see the international press about this. They are absolutely perfect in this manipulative use of a crisis situation. They know that. I think corona came very handy but I don't think that initiated anything. What is more important is that we will have elections in 2022 and whatever radical changes this government want to get through with, they should very soon. They will definitely not initiate radical changes in the year before the elections. I'm not sure about that. I'm not sure about that. Sorry to discuss it. These people are radicals. They are absolutely not conservatives. They are very, very aggressive people. They have their will power. I say plural, but it's one person. He doesn't take care of everything into consideration. Just think about the destruction of the religious order of which the leader is the guy who baptized the children of Orban. He totally destroyed it like in a Shakespeare play. He doesn't care about this. I think it's over sophisticated thinking. I'm sorry to interrupt. You may be right, but I know that corona should go in a few minutes or two. What is the perspective of the students? In two days, let's say nothing will happen. Will students go to courses? Will they do them under protest? What's your prediction? Will this sit and go on indefinitely until next year? We will keep on fighting until we couldn't get what we want. I can't really say what will happen in a month because I have no idea and nobody does. In October, there will be a big change because the leaders will help. They wouldn't stay here as the leaders. October 1st it will change. We will be left in less than a week. Officially and finally. There will be a time to make another bigger conflict because someone has to be a leader and he or she will come from outside. So there will be an interesting time because we won't get them inside. We'll let them inside. How can students let's say we have listeners or campuses in New York or New Orleans or Los Angeles want to show us how they go to your website? Is there a place they can find you? How can they find you guys? In English? On Facebook we have a Facebook page which is linked to the student government. We share everything. Sometimes in English too but mostly in English. What's the Facebook address? It's in the chat. When you leave we still have the address. What's going to happen to you guys? Are you officially still part of faculty or are you being thrown out? What's the situation? I decided just like the majority of the leaders that I would resign as a leader but stay as an educator teacher as long as it makes any sense. I don't have to give up on basic values because this is my responsibility to go on teaching my students. I cannot take part in our system and I will not pretend that I will accept the regulations that are imposed on us but as for the teaching I try and keep up my freedom. If that is impossible or if something even more horrendous is called, then of course I believe in the teacher as well and I suppose most of my colleagues think the same way but I must add that quite a few of our old professors that have been part of the tradition for 20, 30, 40 years they decided to go once the list of the board managers was published. They cannot collaborate with these people who are so hostile and unjust to our community of students and teachers but in brief I try and play as a teacher and we'll see. I have to go now, I'm sorry I wrote the Facebook address in the chat and if someone wants to get in touch with us they can write us in English too. There's a group of people who deals with the international press. Maybe put the address instead of your name as a name so we see and leave your screen on if possible I'm not sure if everybody can access the chat from the outside. So Andras what's with you so bye bye Hannah and really thank you for taking the time where are you going, what are you doing that you may ask? To the doctor. Okay good luck with everything. Thank you. Well in my case it's very different from last year I was 10 years I teached certain classes before but in the last 10 years I had two classes themselves one class was a theater class the other class was a film script class so five five years five plus five years and I resigned from the job two years ago if I want to continue or I want to be part no for private reasons I don't like to be part of institutions that's my personal problem this is a wonderful institution and my colleagues asked me I have a wonderful colleague who's also a colleague of lots of Gabor name at a wonderful Hungarian writer he asked me if I ask you to hold classes will you come he must define it very precisely what he wants from me to do with politics in this case but I'm sure certain I use this metaphor fly in the milk of Mr. Willow you know when the flies in the milk and in the next classroom somebody teaches things that I totally disagree with I don't think my words have the same meaning so I have very good friends who teach on I have very good class masters Ottilionis who is a fighter for this university he's going on with his class I'm sorry for them in fact if you ask my real opinion if this happens, if the worst scenario happens I think it's it's a very bad situation when in one classroom there is a nationalist conservative Christian teacher and in the other classroom there is a teacher whom they call liberal whatever it's impossible it doesn't work that way and this never worked that way they systematically and of course he's right in one respect that of course they are sometimes looking at the elections okay some calculations but they are systematically destroying the fabric of cultural life as it is what they call liberal that's just the word the cultural life as it is it's a very sophisticated texture and fabric and they intentionally try to tear it apart with quite a lot of success sorry to give this pessimistic and dark scenario I think you are both right it's right to stay it is absolutely right to stay and to stand up and the words as the liberal or whatever the arts teacher will be more worse but it's also absolutely right to say no I can it reflects the multiplicity of opinions but it's just it is devastating to think that me I'm also at university and my colleagues would have to face such choices that a political party will put in people who control arts education or in general education at universities it's no longer about credits about achievements and about excellence but it's about a connection and a party and then ideology and as we all know ideology makes for bad theater ideology makes for bad films ideology makes for bad poems the arts you cannot do the opposite of what it is all about it's an incredible warning sign but maybe and often theater is the first to close down but often when there is resistance theater also is the first where it manifests so it is important what you do and I think the world is watching the New York Times I think also dedicated an article to you which is very rare normally the New York Times doesn't write anything about education is the kiss of death we try to get something as they listen you write about universities we could write all day about Colombia and you guys but so it is really the seriousness of this situation I think is acknowledged especially history of 150 years and with very dark times in between actually so this change is significant and we hope that out of that confusion out of this crisis something will come up but we don't know it's part of the time of corona I think that uncertainty we really do not know it's unusual for us especially in the western world not to know what is going to happen and what will be but there is a serious reason for concern and we admire you all that you take a stand and that you are in the middle of a fight for us somehow seems far away and not imaginable but perhaps it's around the corner also we do not know or perhaps it will be a warning sign and it won't be but as you know also in America and other countries in Europe in Poland and others there are forces at work that deny of that what worked I mean we invented Trump much before we invented it yeah yeah what do you think what is your prediction for the Hungarian society do you think this is a phase that country like Hungary that has been suppressed so long in the iron curtain where I do remember seeing music groups Hungarian music as a form of resistance listening to Rolling Stones but very Hungarian traditional clothes you know as a sign of resistance against the censorship of suppression but that perhaps Hungary is as we need to experience a national moment of ourselves but do you think it will pass or do you think this is just the beginning of a very long time of of of that's what I think yes I think what's your life we are at the beginning of a historical shift the change these are symptoms these are signs we have an ideal which is looking in the past I mean the so-called liberal democracy which is I put it in quotation marks that's already a problem and we don't see the new forms of society which are building up before our eyes so you need new strategies new ideas for new relationships and I think this will go on now for quite a long time because they are quite quite well stabilized through all kinds of international relationship between you know Trump called Orbán a few days ago and Bolsonaro calls Putin and Putin calls Erdogan etc this is this is a huge story and Hungary is very much part of it even if Hungary is too small so in this respect I'm very pessimistic on the other hand this event around the school in Hungary the theater and film school in Hungary is a wonderful thing and we know that in history sometimes one week can mean more than 20 years or 50 years in its symbolical meaning and it gives a very strong example and paradigm for the future but to answer concrete I think this will go on now for a certain time it's we are not at the end of it now they are very well entrenched so to speak you know I'm very frustrated and depressed and pessimistic and skeptical whatever you name it out of the experience of the last many many years because as you may remember a few years ago with this constant that very shadowy image of Hungary being deeply deeply divided as a society in every little field and that's the making of the people who are now governing this but it didn't start with them being in the government it began many many years ago at least 20 years ago when they decided that the best marketing tool of any kind of idea the best marketing tool of any economic or other ideas is to put everything in a very simple way and boil down everything to yes and no question and this is what's been happening and this is how the whole society is divided into people who would say yes to this question and people who would say no to that question and yes and no questions basically about are you with me or against me but all this said in my opening speech last year I was on the opening ceremony of the school is always in our theater space and I was standing on the stage which doesn't happen they often to me because I'm not an actor I was standing there talking to the people and suddenly I said listen we are in an institution of 155 years and this year the very first time in our history we accepted and start teaching people who were born in the 21st century and I think we still cannot fatten whatever that means that our students are people who were born in the 21st century so what I mean is we cannot predict how these young people will change the face of the universe but I'm sure it's a formative experience to be part of really thinking through essentially what is it what we want and what do we don't want and we're coming closer to the end give us a little bit maybe an idea what Hungarian theater directors filmmakers poets novelists who should we listen to what should we read do you have some names for us in that time of corona or music or composers what is coming out of Hungary or you think please pay attention right now New York Times was writing about a film of a student of Lili Horvat who is a student of this university who was at the Toronto Film Festival and New York Times yesterday put him in the 10 best films of that festival so I think a lot of things are happening theaters of course half dead now in Hungary but the film film industry is a bit in the frigid air you know they plan things but they don't actually start to shoot them Ayed Ildiko just finished an adaptation of a very big Hungarian novel which will come out as soon as possible so sorry you may not remember her name but she is the director of on body and soul Lili Horvat the person just mentioned Hi 20th century so she is internationally very renowned so I mean I don't think the theater productions will go around but I mean some wonderful novels were published this year in Hungary which are translated into many languages so fun again music that travels easily and the great composer Peter Otwos he produces a new opera basically every year and most of them are performed in European cities as well as in New York so I suppose if you have never heard Peter Otwos you should keep your ears open for him and you know the easiest way to learn about Hungarian culture is just jump on a plane and come good because it's for yourselves so I really do also encourage people to go to Hungary it's a beautiful country I think if I'm right but also modeled after Paris as a city and a great ifo lecture it's also a great place to see a theater and art and museums and it's important that there's also an international presence in that country so Andreas and Lazar really thank you for joining us it was an important update we needed to hear from you and our thoughts are with us our hearts are with us this is an important struggle it stands for much much more than just your school and your education and to it I hope you also will come I hope we will meet again we had great conversations when we met so I hope you both will come to New York I will be back in Budapest follow our Segal talks where it's also about what do we do what has already changed what will change what is significant and how does the political really matter and in your case of course it is so openly visible significant development where we really have to pay attention and do everything that such things do not happen we have to support the arts we have to support the great institutions that create education especially if it's working well like in your school if it's a success story everybody would be thrilled to have three Oscar nominations in a row nobody would shut you down and say it has to be privatized it's shocking so thank you all of Europe you know we all admire and we look up to so I hope that this also was inspiring to you I hope that you know that the international community is on your side and please do stay in touch stay safe also in the time of Corona I am worried actually even if Hannah said no it's not students getting together intense and in times of Corona it is putting their life address somewhere deep down they also know that but they still think they have to do it like Black Lives Matter or demonstrations where people know they put their lives at risk when they go out on the street chanting but they say things are so hard so difficult so unjust we have to do that tomorrow we hear from Beirut we have a Sahar Asaf back and Dima Mata who I spoke to a week before actually that big devastating explosion happened we tried to contact them in between but it wasn't possible so we get an update and also see what can we do and also you guys let us know how their support could be done for you what is helpful and I hope you will stay connected to us and one day come and hopefully soon we will see a Hungarian production maybe at that festival that we are putting together the New York International Festival of the Arts in the summer of 2022 you know think about finding partners so you can have some of the great work represented I remember too much photos production you know of Electra which I saw and Krakator Andreas Tompa's work and so much brilliant work that came out of there so and it needs to be seen which is our world and like musicians listen to world music for their own music in the same theater so thank you and a good night to Budapest thank you for your attention and your interest in our case thank you bye bye thanks to Hallround for hosting us for VJ and to make this possible again to Andy Lerner here at the Seagulls and to all your listeners really taking time out of your day there's also so much out there on content but it is important and what happens there concerns us all so really thank you we need great audiences as we do we create theaters and great films but it's ultimately about the audience and make sure that wherever you are that such things won't happen and we all have to see it's a fight it's a serious a fight to keep what we have all the best and see you soon bye bye