 Good morning, everyone. I'm Lori Gagné, retired director of the Edmundyte Center for Peace and Justice at St. Michael's College in Burlington, Vermont. And I have the great honor of speaking today with Mazan Kounsia, who is a Palestinian scientist, author and activist. Mazan is the founder of the Palestine Museum of Natural History and the Palestine Institute for Biodiversity and Sustainability at Bethlehem University, where he teaches. Our conversation today will cover a range of topics from Mazan's personal story to conditions in Palestine today, to his vision for the future, to the work that he does at the Institute and probably most importantly what we as Americans can do to support the Palestinians in their struggle for liberation. Now, before we begin, I have to say that I am really thrilled to be taking part in this conversation with Mazan today. This is the second time that we have met. The first time was in the West Bank in 2018 when I was part of the MetaPeace team. A group of us had a day off and so we went to Bethlehem University and knocked on his door, and he was most gracious and gave us an impromptu lecture, which we all later agreed was the most uplifting thing that we had heard when we were in the West Bank. So I'm really happy to be instrumental in getting his message out to a wider group. So Mazan, let's begin with your personal journey. I would say that you've had a really interesting life trajectory. You were born in the West Bank, you moved to the United States, where you had a distinguished career as a geneticist and evolutionary biologist teaching at places like Duke and Yale. But then in 2008 you came back to Palestine. And you've been there ever since. Can you tell us about the turning points in your journey, like why you left in the first place and then what precipitated your return? Thank you very much for hosting me and I look forward to a good discussion and really it's an honor for me. I was born in a small village called Beth-Sahur. It's a shepherd's field where the shepherds basically heard the angels saying told them, prompted them to go to Bethlehem where Jesus was born. And my family is a family descendant from those people who lived here 2000 years ago on this monumental event supposedly took place nearby. The history of my childhood and my growing in Palestine under Israeli occupation, of course, which we can come to later, but it prompts like everything else when you have injustice. In North America, for example, growing in the era of the 1940s and 50s and the lynching and all of this stuff. Many of them turn to activism and I turn to activism also. For us, it was for us also in a colonial situation, of course, being present on our land is a form of resistance, getting education is a form of resistance, so we are all considered resistors. When the colonialists wanted to change this country from a multi-ethnic, multicultural, multi-religious society to make it the Jewish state of Israel. Anyway, as raised here, of course, I started aspiring and many Palestinians got education under these circumstances. They turned to education because it's a form of empowerment. So I went and got my high degrees bachelor in Jordan master and PhD in the US and then as you mentioned I went into other areas. I did postdocs and genetics and medical genetics and then I worked at the University of Tennessee Duke and Yale. But while working in those prestigious institutions, I was also engaged in political activism, human rights work on many areas, not just Palestine, including even on South Africa, et cetera, apartheid systems and so on. And then I decided in 2007 to start moving back to the West Bank and I did move back here in 2008 to Palestine. Why did I move back? Well, it's because I felt I would be needed more here than in the US. The US has, you know, I was active in the US as I mentioned and human rights issues, but I felt that I could use my time better here and the US has been moving in the right direction. In my opinion, since I first went there in 1979, the US has changed, and there's more activism groups like the one you have in Vermont and other groups that are doing more activism for human rights for justice. So I felt I fulfilled my role in the US and time for me to go back home and stay with my elderly mother and all this stuff, you know, and it was the best decision I made in my life. Economically, it was terrible course because I lost six figure income went down to a three figure income or sometimes zero figure income. But it was a very good decision in my life. So, so that's why I moved back. Okay, well, having left and come back, you have a kind of unique perspective on the situation in Palestine. Can you talk about the change in living conditions under the occupation, particularly in the West Bank, but in all of Palestine. In the last 50 years or so, like, maybe you could compare what it was like on your return in 2008 with what it was like for you as a boy growing up and then what it's like now compared to what it was like 14 years ago when you returned. Yeah, when I was raised as a child under Israeli occupation. I remember even Israeli soldiers beating my father for no reason that's whatsoever only because he refused to obey their orders to clean the street so to speak. When I was a teacher and his dignity was, I didn't make the street dirty with these stones or whatever. Why should I clean them, and they beat him up for challenging them basically. And from then on, these childhood memories to the events in the past 13 years that I've been back here. There was a change of course, sometimes for the good sometimes for the worse, but colonization is seems to be the constant still here were not free yet. We have. I mean in brief I don't want to make this a history lesson, but in brief we have 14 million Palestinians, about 8 million of us are refugees or displaced people that's two thirds or so. Living in refugee camps inside Palestine or living outside the Palestine like Jordan, which has about 4 million Palestinians or Lebanon or Syria, or Egypt or even the United States which has 300,000 Palestinian refugees. The refugees are dispersed around the world. Palestinians are refugees not by accident, or anything else. It happened by a meticulous process of ethnic cleansing that we in our language we call neck belt catastrophe, which has been going on for the past 73 years since the founding of the state of Israel. And the reason for this neck belt for this catastrophe for our people is that Israel, as a state was founded based on a vision, the vision of Zionism was Jewish state in Palestine. You know when, when the Zionism came about in the 19th century. And then led by guy by the name Theodore Herzl out of Vienna, Theodore Herzl sent two rabbis to Palestine to see what it's like and whether it's suitable for a Jewish state. Two rabbis before they sent their full report to Herzl, but after they visited the country they sent a telegram to Herzl. The telegram simply said, the bride is beautiful, but she is married to another man. In other words, the country is beautiful to become a Jewish state. But there are people here, what are we going to do with these people, and Herzl and all subsequent Zionist leaders had to contend with the fact that this country was not empty, a land without the people for a people without the land as I repeated, but was heavily in, inhabited by indigenous people and that to make it the Jewish state and bring Jews and converts to Judaism from around the world and make a Jewish state of Israel, ethnic cleansing had to be done. And this process didn't stop in 1948 when Israel was created as a state. It actually accelerated after that and continues to this day. And we that's why we have this refugee population. This is the crux of the problem. This is the etiology of the problem as we say in the medical field. Diagnosis is basically settler colonialism. And this diagnosis has many symptoms which we see. And in the last 13 years, for example, we see things like home demolitions, killing of Palestinian children, thousands of Palestinian children were killed, just in the past 10 years, and so on and so forth. Building walls, building colonies on stolen Palestinian land. All of these things happen regularly, and we see it, and it has not changed since 1948. So that's what we observe in the period that we that I witnessed in my life and I, since I came back personally I lost 21 friends of mine who were killed by the Israelis. Not one of them was armed, you know, or resisted whatever in armed resistance, they were either participating in demonstrations or at the wrong place at the wrong time, their homes was demolished on top of their heads or things like that. So, this is my own personal experience and I can tell hours and hours about this but you'll get the picture. Right, so it's your understanding that that Israel hasn't gotten necessarily more brutal and more aggressive in the last 50 years or so but is just continuing this very aggressive kind of colonialism that it's had since the beginning of the country. Since Palestinians began to be displaced. Okay, so, well let's talk about your vision of the future. In one of your books, popular resistance in Palestine. I would say that we have to give up the old roadmap for the future, the old roadmap for peace which is the two state solution, and take up a new roadmap which is combining human rights with a struggle against apartheid. You started to talk about that in your last your last response but could you elaborate on that statement. I mentioned earlier, what I call etiology or diagnosis in the medical field, being settler colonialism. It is important that we agree to the diagnosis before we over therapies or what we call prognosis future. What's going to happen. If we don't agree on the diagnosis we have a problem. You know if somebody is sick and and the doctor diagnosis correctly as cancer, they can offer the right therapy but if the cancer has symptoms like anemia and headaches and so forth. And we just diagnosed the symptoms and offer aspirin or blood, you know, enhancements. That's not going to cure the cancer so it's really important to make the diagnosis. Once you make the correct diagnosis which is settler colonialism. Based on the facts and the figures I mentioned, 8 million refugees out of 14 million that are cities living in Bantustans with the two sets of laws one for Jews one for non Jews in this for the people who remain in this country, etc. Then, once you make the right diagnosis you look at therapy. So design therapy and how do you decide on prognosis. Well it's very simple as in the medical field we look at other situations, other patients if you want and see how they recovered, or how they dealt with. Now colonialism has one of three possible outcomes. The outcome of Algeria were 1 million French packed their bags and went to France. I don't even say back to France because some of them were six seven generations in Algeria some of them have never seen France and their lives. This ended colonization Algeria, but it was very bloody at the cost of some 2 million Algerian lives and some 150,000 French lives. This is one possible scenario second possible scenario for colonialism is what happened in the United States and Australia, which is a genocide of the native people tried genocide. And leaving so few of them that they are quoting what manageable. That's that's also a scenario but both scenario one and scenario two are very rare. The third and only other scenario possible is the most common scenario found in over 150 countries on earth like Latin America Central America, you know, Caribbean islands Cuba, Mexico, etc. North America you find it in Canada and Mexico you find it in Southeast Asia Philippines Malaysia Indonesia Taiwan, etc. You find it in South Africa after random apartheid. That scenario is coexistence basically descendants of the colonized and descendants of the colonizers living in one country. These are the only three possible scenarios and based on probability alone, the outcome patient outcome scenario three is the most likely scenario to happen in this case in this particular patient called Palestine or Israel or whatever you want to call it. There is no to state quote unquote solution per se. I never heard of colonial anti colonial situation that ended up in a real to state that may happen interim. For example on the US signed agreements with the natives to allow them to be independent nations in particular areas of the country. But that is in terms of things that never last. South Africa also tried to do it with what's called the Bantu stands, which means the countries for the Bantu people creating states within a state. That doesn't happen. It cannot last it's just a temporary bandage on a bleeding artery basically it doesn't help very much. So, so what we need to look for is coexistence based on human rights. And that's the third scenario because none of us really want the first or second scenario here. I'm sure the Israelis don't want Palestinians don't want the first and second scenario the Algerian scenario or the genocide scenario. I mean there's always some individuals who want it. Some Israeli leaders are calling for the genocide of the Palestinians to end this problem, so to speak. And, but, but again, you know and then there may be a very radical few Palestinians are calling for the Algerian model but the vast majority of people here don't want scenario one or scenario two they want scenario three, which is a country with citizens and that's what will happen and is happening as we speak whether Zionism colonialism once it or not. It is happening between the river Jordan and the Mediterranean. There are currently six and a half million Palestinians of various religions, and there are 6.1 million Israeli Jews. Actually majority who are not Jews, but even a bone from the 6.1 million Israeli Jews, many are anti Zionist or post Zionist post colonialist post Zionist. The vision that you present is certainly rational. And I think that it's one that all liberal democratic people can support. The problem is that the two parties in question, despite your optimism about their acceptance of it, certainly aren't accepting it right now. The, the Israelis are entrant agent about having a Jewish state, which means that Palestinians, you know, can't claim the land of Canaan, as there as partly theirs anymore, at least not in that area. And even the Palestinians, some many of the Palestinians who are part of popular resistance whom we met back in 2018, we're still speaking in favor of a two state solution. And I remember after we met you and we heard your impromptu lecture we went back and talked about one state with human rights and, you know, multi ethnic and all that, and they, they resisted and these were Palestinians. So, maybe we could, you know, first focus on uniting Palestinians behind your vision. Let me talk about both areas. And now I don't necessarily believe there are two sides to this conflict so called Palestinians and so called Israelis. But first of all, I mean we're all human beings of various religious and political backgrounds among Palestinians. There are various political factions and ideas for the best forms of government that are communist that are Islamists that are, you know, a secularist that are all sorts of ideas. And then on the Israeli side there are many, many ideas and some ideas, I would say, from some Israelis are another guest to some ideas from some Palestinians, and vice versa. But let's talk specifically about this notion of two states. This notion of two states was originated, not by the Palestinians and not a single Palestinian supported two state solution before 1993. I challenge you to find me one Palestinian voice that supported really two state solution before 1993. The idea of a two state actually came from Bangorian in 1920s, and Bangorian became the first Israeli prime minister after 1948. But his idea of a two state was not a real two state was a virtual two state where we just talk about two states endlessly without actually implementing them. Because he was asked about that in private meetings with the map on, or in his letters to his son, or in his diaries he explained that we need to be talking about two states, and we need to show that we really want two states, but not implemented because it shows that we want peace and so on and we are willing to split the land with the native people who lived in this land before we came from Europe to colonize. This is his view in the 1920s. This is a good public relations campaign, and many Israeli leaders right wing left wing Zionists, they all claim that they wanted two states for you all if they want they wanted. They have the power to implement it. They've always had the power to implement it from 1948 till today and so they are not implementing. On the Israeli side, these so called support for two state solutions not really genuine. And I challenge you to find Israeli leaders who accept to sovereign states not state in like an apartheid system where there's no control over natural resources or air or water or anything else. That's not the state that's that's a ban to stand. If you find such leaders I would like to see them. I don't see them I don't see their statements in support to sovereignty or recognition of the rights of Palestinians to their own land. Among the Palestinians after 1993. I must admit there were some delusional Palestinians who do not read history, who just look at the strength and power and that the US supports Israel. There's no way to win by struggling for our independence for our freedom. So we might as well accept whatever the international so called international community, represented by the US which dominates while the pairs. And that's what the United States wants us to do when the US told them. People like Abu Mazen and yes I've had before him that if you accepted to state solution we give you economic aid. And, you know, transition period of five years, and you will get your state. And this started 1993 the five years have passed obviously. It was the 29th year, and no Palestinian state was formulated so obviously this was all lies and not real. But still there are Palestinians who still hold on to the straws that somehow the US will will somehow convince Israel to give the Palestinians some form of a state but it's not a state with sovereignty. As every American president have said, Palestinians cannot have a sovereign state like any other country. They would have to just contend themselves with having a state without arms demilitarized without control of its borders without Jerusalem without the refugees returning to their homes and lands without basic human rights basically. Well, let's go on. You kind of in I guess you have indicated that we can't look to the leadership, I suppose either in Palestine, and certainly not in Israel to help us move toward this to move on this new roadmap for peace against apartheid and settler colonialism. So, you say that the best our best hope is in popular resistance. Could you talk about the three great uprisings that I can think of any way that have occurred in the last, well in recent times, the two into fadas in the late 80s and the early 2000s and then much more recently the great march of return in Gaza. How effective, would you say they were what did they accomplish and have did Palestinians learn anything from these big uprisings. Thank you. Now we're moving to the therapies basically right. And so yes, I mean if we all agree that settler colonialism the best outcome for it is democrat democracy human rights equality justice. That means obviously one country for all its people. Every religion is treated equally not chosen people notions, not laws that discriminate against non Jews. And for that matter if I don't want the Muslim state or a Christian state a la crusaderism. I want the state of its citizens. If that's our outcome, which is most likely to happen. What's the therapy the therapy starts with the body itself the body itself the historic Palestine. As I mentioned in the beginning was multi ethical multi cultural multi religious society, and has always rejected notions of uniformity. For example, the crusaders lasted the year 120 years tried desperately to make the country Catholic, or at least supposedly Catholic but they were not motivated by the Catholic dogma they were more motivated by political and other reasons same as there was one Muslim leader and his son who tried to make it the Muslim country for 40 years they failed. So, and then there's Zionism which tried to make it a Jewish state, and it failed past tense. Now why do these movements fail. They fail because the local people resisted. Their resistance is important, the local people regardless of their religion. My ancestors, by the way, were Christian but they fought with the Muslims against the crusaders. Why because we were living together in one country Jews Christian Muslim. We don't want this country to become a Christian Catholic state. So, so we resisted this notion. So the same. I mean, if you are talking about the white state or in South Africa white state and Jim Crow laws and the South, there are many whites who rejected that this resistance comes from all quarters. There are various religions of various backgrounds, because it's logical to resist settler colonialism. And so, Palestinians engaged in resistance going back 130 years from the time of her chill and his idea of Zionism and a Jewish state. They resisted by many many methods, hundreds of methods, most of them non violent. Most of the people engaged in non violent resistance, few people engaged in armed resistance. And of course resistance is not uniform. It comes as waves, because people cyclical generational older people get tired, the new generation comes up more energized, whatever but you always have cyclical situations. These are uprisings, or we call them in Arabic into fathers. So, you know, we had 14 uprisings in South Africa they have, they have 15 by the way against apartheid in South Africa so I'm optimistic that we will have one final uprising and then we'll be finished with it. But anyway, these these waves, which are uprisings or into father. We've had several in my lifetime. I think there were like six. One of the last three of course are most memorable to me because I participated in them. So, and I know what's, you know, as as an adult participating in these things and helping people resist non violently again you know not not with arms or anything else I'm a believer in the philosophy of Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King and Desmond Tutu. You know I knew Desmond Tutu actually I spoke at his church in South Africa a few years ago. He recently died. So, this is what we engage in. And these uprisings are very critical to always knock on the door of the oppressor or knock on the wall until the wall tumbles you know. Slowly they chip at this wall of oppression. And I think that's what's happening here. And hopefully the next uprising will finish this, but we do need international support of course and we can talk about that. Later but you know and like with South Africa there was boycott divestment sanctions around the world that helped convince the white elites in South Africa that their root of exclusivism and dominance of whites in South Africa is not the right way. So, I'm glad to hear you say that you think these uprisings are really helping us make progress along the new roadmap to peace they're really chipping away at the wall of oppression. I have to say, especially in terms of the media coverage of the last one, the, well, yeah I guess the bombardment, the recent bombardment of Gaza, which just occurred in the last few months, I guess back in March and April. I was impressed that it seemed like the media was giving a more accurate coverage of what was going on they didn't immediately characterize it as a war, and, especially on social media videos that were shared. I think it was really obvious to people around the world that this was a bombardment of, you know it was an asymmetrical kind of exchange between the Israelis and the people in Gaza and I think that just awaken more sympathy for the people in Gaza and you know the bully that Israel is is more and more being exposed I don't know if you have that same impression. Well, I mean, the designers leadership from its early days. In the late 19th century, early 20th century, they realize the power of media, and they center emissaries and they first just media, etc, to try and brainwash people to think that the victim is the oppressor. And at the time, the Europeans colonized North America they use the same language, but they didn't have media, you know, for example, they used to say, we're just circling the wagons to protect ourselves against those savage Indians that are attacking us for no obvious reason. They use the same language thing, but they are vicious violent people, scalping people, etc. This is a, the image that they put in, first of all, of course, in their own mind to justify what they're doing to their own people. And second to the rest of the world, but they didn't have media, like we have now in the 17th and 18th and 19th century, even early 19th century. And the 20th century and 21st century, of course, was dominated. And if you look at early footage 1950s, for example, it's dominated by the same imagery and even the same language used against Native Americans or against blacks in South Africa, that they are violent that they are terrorists they are barbarians they are killing us. We don't understand why and we're just defending ourselves. And occasionally you know some civilians die but that's, you know, not because we want to kill civilians. It's because of the nature of the enemy being savage basically. And the children of the savage woman anyway will grow up to be savages so even if we kill woman and children we might as well get rid of this savagery. And use that imagery. Now what happened in the last 40 years really 30 years is a proliferation of the Internet, which cuts down on the monopoly of news by mainstream media that can be bought mainstream media can be bought. Nobody knows that I mean all you have to do is watch Fox News, Rupert Merida, of course, billionaire who sets a agenda for for the media empire. And this media empire can say certain things and that's that's becomes the reality for many many people. But they cannot control a lot of the social media they're trying now to remedy this gap in, in misinformation if you want a, because there's people who are posting facts on Facebook so now, you know they convinced Zuckerberg and others and Facebook to outlaw for example Palestinian content, because supposedly it supports terrorism, you know. And this is, this is a danger. I'm not sure if the trend is helpful in terms of media or not helpful. I think the designers are very shrewd and very smart and very working on all levels of media whether social media, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, or mainstream media which they can acquire and buy off right off hand. They've been doing very good job for promoting designers perspective on the media. Our, our strength lies in the facts, we have facts on our side. And so sometimes defending the facts defending a truth is much easier than defending a falsehood. And so the images from Gaza that you alluded to. It's difficult to argue with them when you're dropping white phosphorus on a refugee camp or when you're using one ton bombs on a crowded city in Gaza. Or when you are using machine guns from boats on children that are playing at the beach in a football game in Gaza. And these are very hard to combat by propaganda. So I think the truth still is lying on the side of human rights and we can use that. And we must, but we have a lot of work to do and I'm not quite comfortable in the trends that are going on in the media. Well, in the public, being aware of events and even like what we are doing now, the public would be more aware that I'm giving talks like three or four times a week. And just the day before yesterday at Boston Community College, for example, I gave a pocket eight people attended. There's a lot of interest and there's a lot of person to person communication which is very important. And finally, the people who come here like yourself. If you come here and see facts for yourself. And please, you know, I encourage your audience to come and see. And yes, speak to Israel, speak to Palestine, speak to settlers, even speak to right-wing people, left-wing people, whatever, but speak to people. The facts will become so obvious to you that you don't need media to tell you. Oh, I think you're absolutely right. The best way to combat the Zionist narrative, which has been dominant is just exposure to the facts. Unfortunately, as we know with the, you know, recent pandemic, a lot of people are resistant to the facts and, and these narratives can just take over. And I can attest when I was very young, I totally bought the Zionist narrative. I read the book of Exodus. I love those songs that glorified Israel about people fighting for their freedom and all that. And it took me a long time and, you know, I became an academic to really free myself of that myth. And so I just, I wonder if we can work on advancing a new narrative that's closer to the facts, because I think those are helpful too, in advancing a good project like this one. I think, first of all, as I said, you know, we have facts and truths on our side that's undeniable for anybody who comes and looks at the situation. I mean, you can jump through hoops to explain that there are 14 million Palestinians in the world and 8 million of them are refugees or displaced people. The rest live in Bantustan's ghettos denied basic human rights, like freedom of movement, freedom of religion, freedom of anything, you know, even health, you know, the COVID-19 all of these things. It would be very hard to justify that. If you look at the facts, it's very hard to challenge them with propaganda. I myself, you know, I challenge Zionist to public debates. Many of them who one day accept and they do the first public debate with me, they don't want to have another public debate because the facts are not with them. They prefer propaganda and they prefer to just label their Palestinians, terrorists, etc. I mean, this is what they do and without that they don't have anything. And then when Bush comes to shove, when they fail all the arguments, they go back to the issue of anti-Semitism. They say, it's the only Jewish state in the world and why do you want to challenge the only Jewish state in the world? And we suffered the Holocaust and all of this stuff, even though the Zionists actually collaborated with Hitler and several occasions had even assigned agreement with Hitler. They claim the heritage of Jews who suffered the Holocaust. And when they really shouldn't claim that heritage, and you know, you read books like Norman Finkelstein, whose parents are Holocaust survivors and who were denied basic rights because the Zionists basically stole their money and convinced the German government to directly giving aid to victims of the Holocaust to give the aid to the State of Israel and then the State of Israel decides what to do with this money. And of course the State of Israel is not interested in helping Jews, they are more interested in helping themselves. And if all back, that's kind of their last straw that they hang onto, which is the Holocaust suffering anti-Semitism, we are the victims and Palestinians who challenge us are anti-Semites. I myself have been called an anti-Semite simply because I called for human rights. So, you know, this is bizarre, actually, because, you know, the word Samite comes from a German person who hated Jews who are so ignorant that he thought Jews of Europe were Samites, but Samites refers to people who speak Semitic languages. So, maybe we can talk now about the role of internationals in helping the Palestinians doing this work, and maybe, and then particularly the role of Americans, because our government, obviously, is the chief thunder of Israel. Yeah, I mean, Zionism would not have succeeded if it did not have the Western sponsorship. And it started with the French and the British supporting Zionism in the 19th century and early 20th century with the agreements like Sykes-Picot agreement between the French and the British and the Belfort Declaration from the British and the Belfort Declaration from the French in 1917 to support the Zionist project and then supported not just by these declarations or agreements, but by actual money and support and funds and weapons and everything else that they needed to achieve the goal. And without the British boots on the ground, there would not be a state of Israel. I mean, that British boots on the ground came in 1918 in Palestine, almost a year after the Belfort Declaration. And so the British are actually the ones who were tasked by the joint British French committee with implementing the Zionist project in Palestine. And after the Second World War, when Britain's global role was diminished, the US took over the responsibility of our adopted Zionist project if you want in 1945. And this, you know, the US FDR supports lobbying and cage-rolling countries in the UN and newly established United Nations in 1947 to basically push for establishment of a Jewish state using pressures and other things, and a threat, basically, to force a couple of minor countries to recognize the state of Israel and the US itself recognized Israel six minutes after Israel declared itself a state. And this, by the way, the wishes of the intelligence community and the career diplomats and everybody else rational. Even the precursor of the CIA at the time wrote a lengthy report, secret reports submitted to the president saying that this is going to harm American interests in the Middle East. And he decided to do it because as he said Truman actually, not FDR, Truman at the time, 1947-48, he said look gentlemen to his cabinet, this was a meeting of gentlemen, of course there was no woman as cabinet ministers. But anyways, he said gentlemen, you know, Truman speaking to them privately, he said I know you're all against this and that this is not a good idea for US interests long term and intelligence services and everybody told me against it, that these are not running for elections for president, and I have to run for election and I don't have a large contingent of Arab Americans who are going to support me like I have from these other sites. So the reality of it, the US made the decision not based on its own national interest, and still today it's not based on US national interest is based on lobbying by the Zionist lobbies in Washington that determine US foreign policy. Right, so we need to lobby we as concerned citizens for the Palestinians really need to lobby I guess our own representatives and Congress people to work on defunding Israel to the tune the way that we do to the tune of what $3 billion a year. What about other things Americans can do. Can we talk about the BDS movement has that been effective. You know, it has been attacked. As you know in this country and actual anti BDS laws have been passed I was just reading in 27 different states. The courts have ruled deemed those laws unconstitutional in a couple of cases so there has been some pushback, but I take this as a sign that BDS is effective. What do you think. The boycott the Westman sanctions help us in the case of South Africa to reverse the policies of apartheid in South Africa and it is helping us reverse the policies of the state of Israel, or will help us in reversing the policy of the state of Israel that's why Israel has such nonviolent actions as BDS to be an existential threat to them and they are correct to consider it an existential threat to a system of racism and oppression. So what do they do to combat it of course they turn to what they actually coined the term low, low fare like warfare low fare to use legal or semi quasi legal mechanisms to prohibit people who speak for human rights and justice. I just outlawed seven human rights organizations here in Palestine. Some of them like defensive children international women's activist group prisoner support groups etc. Basically human rights groups members of the UN recognized internationally as human rights groups Israel outlawed them. Israel is pressuring other countries like Germany the US England to outlaw any human rights activism for Palestine be it with BDS or any other speaking for human rights or Palestinians using the leverage that they have strong lobbies in the government to to affect such a change as you pointed out there's also some pushback from people because some constitutional to stop people from saying, you know, things about racism in Palestine, you know, Israeli racism. Why is that illegal to say something, or even prevent force posts on Facebook that called it called Israel and apartheid racist state. It's a fact that's an apartheid racist state has 65 laws that discriminate against non Jews. Why is that cannot be called out just simply because it's a Jewish state. We cannot call it out for what it is as racist has racist laws and practices racism. So I think there are some pushback along those lines, and there will be more pushback as more public is aware, made aware of this. American citizens need to understand my humble opinion. I'm a US citizen. Right. And I pay taxes, even I noted after I leave the US 2008 I still pay tax I have to pay taxes. This never goes away. It's like taxes and death are the two. Everybody pays taxes. Okay, what is being done with your taxes. It's the largest recipient of US foreign aid. Israel gets more money. This very small country gets more money per capita and even as a country actually gets more money total than, then all of sub Saharan Africa some 22 countries, and all of Latin America combined. Imagine, you know, one small country why, why is it get all the shade all this tax money and per capita actually is I'll get more money than some, some states in the union. Okay, some poor states in the union per capita, get less per capita back from their taxes to for services and infrastructure and whatever in their country. In the US and Israel citizens get why is that. So, and not only that Israel forced the US through its lobby to engage in endless wars in the Middle East that costs so far. There's estimates of between four and five trillion dollars trillion with the tea is what these wars like on Iraq and Afghanistan and Yemen and Syria. Why are we engaged in these wars, not because they are for democracy or human rights of those citizens of those countries after all our allies like Israel and Saudi Arabia. They violate human rights on a daily basis we don't challenge them. We don't send weapons to fund. Insurgents in those countries. So we fund insurgencies and violence and wars, because the Israeli lobby tells us that this is good for Israel. This is good to have Arabs fighting each other Muslim fighting each other or Muslims fighting Christians or Druze or Bahai or Sunni and she out. This is why we do it as America, you know, and so it's, it's, we have to as Americans we have to push for our own interest first. And that would entail stopping this aid to Israel individual citizens we have I think a few minutes left so I want to say individual citizens in the US can help us. We have institutions that work globally against climate change against oppression against racism. If they want to contact us here I can send them a list of about 40 actually 70 actions I can do for human rights and justice, not just in Palestine but around the world. They can email me at info at Palestine nature.org Palestine nature.org is our website for the Palestine Institute for biodiversity and sustainability, which is sustainability human and natural communities. Okay, and I can get that information out when we distribute this video. Thank you for that. And then just one last thing before we have to close. I really love your optimism you're just very upbeat your matter of fact about casualties that your movement suffers you just keep going. I just have to ask this, you know, given that the situation in Palestine is dire. What, what gives you hope, what is the source of your continuing hope and, and you even exude a kind of serenity when you look toward the future. What's the source of that for you. I mean, hope and optimism relate to what we want done in this one. Why was Martin Luther King and Matt McGandy and all these people hopeful. They were hopeful because they know that in each of us, each human being, even my oppressor even the Israeli soldier who sat on my chest and cracked my rib. There's humanity in these in people and that this humanity is not what we see manifest, which is oppression war, climate change, pandemics destruction. There's so much goodness that's going around there's so much so many thousands and thousands of people here in Palestine that are doing good work agriculture in terms of agriculture. I'm working with children I have children visit this museum of natural history. I see the brightness in their minds and their eyes and their creativity. This gives us hope for the future, we can not only envision a better future, but we can work towards that if our future is if we claim we are for democracy and for human rights for women's rights for children's rights. We should all work for that it's not enough to be for something if you don't actually do something about it. Read the letter from Martin Luther King from Birmingham jail. It's remarkable and explaining why we should have hope, even when he was in the jail, you know, and FBI was after him and all that stuff. There is hope, there's hope in the world. We should just visualize it work for it and achieve it. Each of us has that within our own hearts to do it. Thank you mas and once again for your wisdom and, and once again I'm inspired by your words and I'm so glad that this will go out to a great many people. Just my parting word is I hope to see you again. Maybe in the next year so in Palestine. Thank you very much. Good morning.