 As much as I'm not a fan of how Brother Samuels sometimes talked to sisters on his show at times, I can't lie and say that. I didn't crack up at some of it as well. And to be fair, I'm just being, you know, again, I want this to be authentic. But to be fair, I sometimes felt that it was drawn out of him by some of the women that came on his show because of how they met with him, you know. So, I'm going to ask this one intentionally vaguely and open-endedly, and I want you to, I want to give you as much latitude to pontificate. You say you give me the ball, I'm going to go. You see what I'm saying? Explain your understanding of the Manisphere. Oh, gosh. You know, it's sadly to say how I understand it would probably still be anecdotal. Not that I don't engage in it and not that I haven't listened to commentary around the Manisphere. I have not processed what it is to a point to give you a scholarly answer. Comprehensive. Again, to what I stated earlier, audience, we're going to give you another working answer. So I think the Manisphere is a space in which men are allowing themselves or giving themselves the opportunity to rage against the machine that a faction of us created, but very few of us have full access to, and what do I mean by that? Patriarchy is the founding ideological framework that created this society and many other societies. However, in all societies, there's a hierarchy and if we look at patriarchy in the context of who designed it, it was primarily designed by white men and others who bought into whiteness got the residuals of that and they fit in and some of us fall on the spectrum of that. So the Manisphere is the fallout of this burning house of an ideological framework, in which men are talking about their lived experiences where they feel disenfranchised by the society of large, but also by women. And yeah, it's the first space where they're raging against that machine in a very visceral way. They're also putting each other up on game. The barbershop talks have now become this. They have become men and I want to end this beautiful thing to see a lot of brothers express what they're experiencing, what they have experienced and what to look for out for. It's been a place to express. It's been a place for people to feel community that they once didn't feel community. It's well documented and known that most men feel isolated. Why? Because we don't congregate in the same context as our women do. And so from a virtual standpoint, this has been a means that men unfortunately and fortunately have been allowed to have some solace to talk their shit. One end that's healthy and the other end is not because there has to be balance. On a side note, I feel like we need a sphere that incorporates our women just as much as it incorporates us and vice versa. But to answer your question- Like the middle ground. The middle ground. Middle space. Let's call it the middle space. The middle space. But I think the man of sphere is that. And I know it's so much more. But again, this is a working answer. And so based off my understanding of it and my knowledge of it, it's definitely that. Okay. So with that being said, from an algorithm standpoint, I've been placed in the man of sphere. I've also been critical. You fit? I've also been critical of the man of sphere. Absolutely. Particularly the- If I may interject, aren't you not critical of yourself? Sure. Sure. Particularly for the man of sphere in particular, the nihilism that we see come out of it, right? Everything is a lost cause. Particularly because I'm coming from the pro-black perspective. Yeah. So what do you think that is? Can you help me understand why men would continue to talk about a problem that they think is unsolvable? Because they desire to solve it. Women complain about this in reference to us. We don't want to sit with a problem. We want to solve it. But this is actually the first time in space where we are festering with this problem, that we're speaking up that we've been festering it. So this is the first time that we've gotten a chance to really pontificate similar to that of our women counterparts. Just like this is the era in time. They've gotten a chance to operate that of which it is to be a man in some context. Now, some of us are more solution-focused than others. I think they all serve a purpose with a reason of balance. There has to be a reason of balance. You need moments where you can say, shit, this is fucked up. Just as much as you say, okay, well, what are you going to do about this shit that's fucked up? Why is it fucked up? Who made it fucked up? How did you contribute to the fuck up? You need all those things. You need all that. It's comprehensive. I think just like anything else, the managed fear is only going to be as detrimental or as positive as the person viewing it, very similar to the artistic gaze. It's up to the individual to find the meat, to chew, and the bones to spit out of that space. I think I'm going to give us a suspicious hypothesis. I think for the men who are going in that dark space, it's based off the fact that they've been so isolated and they haven't been validated in a certain way. And so this is the first space where it's all about them. It's all about them and it's a space for those dark feelings, but there's no balance of anybody else challenging. You should look at it this way too. A drug that can be very intoxicating and alluring and for a number of individuals who happen to be men to experience that for the first time, it is cathartic. It's beyond cathartic. It's seductive. It's seductive. And it's also like, well, in my real life, I don't get a chance to talk shit about women. So this is a space where I can or I can hear somebody else. As much as I'm not a fan of how Brother Samuel's sometimes talked to sisters on his show at times, I can't lie and say that. I didn't crack up at some of it as well. And to be fair, I'm just being, again, I want this to be authentic. And to be fair, I sometimes felt that it was drawn out of him by some of the women that came on his show because of how they met with him. He was given the energy that was given back to him. So again, I don't agree with that's how we should operate. But I do, I see how it manifests. I understand how it manifests and why the man is fear has gained such an audience, especially during the pandemic, especially during the pandemic. From a social scientific perspective and from your personal perspective, hopefully you can marry the two. Absolutely. Is black love, is black love a worthwhile pursuit? Is black love a necessary pursuit? What's your perspective on, for instance, my angle coming from the, we have no choice. What's your perspective? Sure. I think black love is still necessary. But I am thriving for the world where we no longer call it black love, where we just simply call it love. The fact that we still have to quantify it in black love speaks to the very problem, particularly considering that black love, no matter how you slice it and dice it, even if it's in its healthiest form, is still rooted in trauma because the black experience is rooted in trauma. To be black is trauma-informed. And so the love that we share is trauma-informed as well. I do think it's necessary, but I would want us to grow to a certain point where our love is transcending the necessity to call it black love. I would love to see that day for black folks. I think it's necessary from a community standpoint, because I do want to continue to see healthy blacks, young men and young women be cultivated in us teaching them how to be better human beings than our forefathers and foremothers gave to us, and us grow to a point where they no longer have the same shackles that we were given, that we heal in the process of teaching them the right way, and then also from a spiritual standpoint, transition as ancestors to serve as guys even beyond that point for that generation and their children. So I think that's what I aspire for for black folks. I don't want to discredit anybody who is in interracial dating or who has a partner that is of another nationality. The only thing I would say to that is just survey your heart as to why for your own personal inventory, not for anybody else's. But for those who are in the business of ensuring that we still have black people in the next coming hundred years, we need to become, as they love to say now, intentional about how we are commemorating community and how we're operating because that's the only way we're going to get to the next step. It's through the seeds that we plant moving forward. So one of the things that I guess I am known for is my ability to communicate with women. You say you got to get the gamma. I mean, hey. You say you got the gamma, that girl. I mean, you know, but hey, so from your perspective, what are some tools you feel like black men can take with them, black men watching this to better conceptualize and approach his internal dialogue of black women and actual dialogue with black women? What are some understandings that you feel like should be foundational in that pursuit? So ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls of the class, I'm going to give you an instructional on how to navigate talking to a black woman when you're a black man internally. No, so this advice is going to be non-binary. What I mean by that is it's going to be applicable for both black men and black women. You first need to be aware of yourself before you can go about approaching anyone else. So you need to be aware of what you are presenting with, what may come up, you know, those apprehensions or these whatever positive or negative things or fictitious things that you have about that black woman when you first see her or that black man, you need to be aware of that because that's going to determine how you approach, how you show up. And then also you need to have this lovely word. This is where I say it really gets non-binary as far as the advice. All parties need to be empathetic for the other one. So if we're going to use a traditional model of approach, and we're talking about black men approaching black women, black men need to be empathetic to the risk a woman takes when she engages with a man she does not know and operate accordingly. Black women. And again, just to be clear, I don't necessarily mean like a shot I'm trying to highlight you. I mean literally entering and dialogue. Yeah, yeah. Maybe even you know her already. Yeah, but even that's an ongoing thing. Sure, sure. And let me be careful. I'm not saying brother, you know, tiptoe on your words or you know, what I'm saying is have her in mind as you are in the pursuit of getting to know her better. Have her in mind. And this is not meaning you're going to hit the mark all the time. Trust me, we'll find something wrong. You know, something ain't going to be right. But your intent is to have her in mind during the dialogue. So you are being conscious and aware. And then also when you hear her responses, attempt to put yourself in her shoes as, as I would expect her to do with you, you know, as, as, as, as, uh, what's, what's the model spirit, you know, uh, forgive us, uh, forgive us our, uh, trespasses. If you give those who trespass against us, it's the same principle, the golden rule that it's, we ain't saying nothing new. It's, it's the same. It's, it's whether you choose to hear it or listen or not, or apply it. If you think it's relevant to you, I'm, I'm charging us to be more aware of, of how we come into the space and how we choose to interact with each other. Black men, you have to, you have to navigate when to assert yourself and when not to, and that's a dance. Sisters, you have to make it more clear when it's appropriate to assert yourself. And sometimes it's being vocal, you know, one of the issues in our communication is that we don't communicate very, very well because we assume half the communication that we communicate is clear and it's not, it's simply not. So there's a lot of misunderstanding. That's one of the reasons why we struggle into, in text messages because one person means this other thing and this other person is receiving it the other. And so before you know it, there's some hostility and it doesn't need no, need no place for, you know, there was no reason for it to even be there. So we, we, we have to start being more empathetic and how we engage with other. And then also we need grace. We need more grace. And I'm not saying just, just, just accept anything. I'm just saying when somebody does make a mistake and how they operate with you and hearing them use empathy in that moment to inform whether how much grace you give that person. See yourself in that moment. Don't just see, just, just don't see how you are offended. See also what they attempted and you were offended by it. You know what I'm saying? See, see in social work, we call it the strength, the strength-based perspective. We need to look at each other from a strength-based perspective, you know, and if there's no strengths, okay, then move on. But we need to, we need to look at each other with a perspective of, okay, let me take all an account, not just about how I immediately feel. And that takes some emotional maturity. All these things I'm talking about is really emotional maturity. We need to, we need to, as my father would say to me, we need to grow up. You know, you know, we need to grow up. You know, and I think that's, that's the biggest, biggest thing. You know, we have to, we have to stop looking at things in a very childish lens where very, to your point, you spoke about it, you challenged me earlier around about black men in our delayed human development. Both of us are guilty of being arrested in development. And it's the mental shackles that we have based off our experiences that has us arrested, not being able to see the whole, the whole table, the whole board. We need, we need that in such a worse way. You know what I'm saying? In such a worse way. Be specific now about how women can better show up. Oh, sure. Because, because, you know, a lot of times the narrative is that nobody protects black men like black women when a black man dies. We're marching in this, this and that. And I've been kind of pushing against that. Like even the idea that the backbone of our communities are women is inherently emasculating. Yeah. So how do you think black women can better show up for black men understanding the unique challenges, the inherent emasculated state of a black man? What do you think? So it's kind of interesting. I'm going to answer your question. I kind of want to challenge what you, because I've heard you say it before. I kind of want to challenge that idea. And then I'll answer your question. Sure. You said that to say that black women are the backbone of our society is inherently emasculating. And on one, and I will agree to an extent, I think it can be completely emasculating if you are looking at it from a Western train of thought. I think if you look at the spectrum of African societies, women have shown up in strength, even from a violent perspective before. And we have to give credence to that. And we see it in our society as well. I think what makes it specifically more emasculating to black men is that our strength is not recognized along with their strength. It goes devoid. And I think it's because of we're in this Western space looking at our strengths in the Western paradigm as opposed to more of an Afro-centric paradigm. I will say this. I will say this, you know, because, you know, the woman king is about to drop the new- Oh, it sure is. You know what I'm saying? It sure is. The new black people are about to drop. Yeah, yeah. Ain't nothing by accident now. Ain't nothing by accident. Right, right. Well, so what I would say, you know, because I'm Nigerian. Ibo? Yeah, I'm Ibo. A lot of these things are embellished, right? So even though they were Dora Milaje, they're not fucking with Shaka Zulu and his men. You see what I'm saying? I think it was just like, there's been a deliberate effort to paint a picture of even your women are better men than you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? So I'm not discounting the strength of women, but if we continue to push this narrative that even our women are more capable warriors, our women are more capable, you know, even physically, violently, that is what I'm talking about. I agree. I agree. I agree. I'm just challenging. It's the frame. It's the frame. It's the frame. I agree with you, but it's the frame. But to answer to answer your question, what sisters can do how they can show up differently? I think sisters need to ask. I think sisters need to ask themselves very simple questions along along the lines of what I'm getting ready to say, is it going to get the result result or move the needle the way I would desire it for it to be moved in this dynamic with this man. And then if you can say yes or no, then you choose accordingly. I think also, I think a number of our women, because I don't think it's all, I think a number of our women need to recognize that their emotions are not the only thing that matters in the circumstance. It matters, but it's not the only thing it matters. So you can't just communicate from that frame of reference. You have to see beyond just how you feel about and you have to, in your communication, although it may reflect how you feel it also must reflect how somebody else may feel about how you're responding to them. It needs to be both. You can tell somebody that what they did to you hurt or you were upset by what they did without cussing them out or being demeaning. So there's a level of control. There's a level of control. There's a level of control and it's also intent. Don't talk to somebody about being intentional when you struggle to be intentional in your words and how you delay them. Not delay them, but relay them. Don't, it cuts both ways. It cuts both ways. Do not be careless with your words and the tonality of your words and your actions. Do not be careless. Do not be careless. I charge both men and women, but I charge women on that because at the end of the day, they hold weight. They hold weight. You know they hold weight. You have to accept how much they weigh. You have to accept it for all of it. Not at a convenience, not at leisure, all of it. You know, and I'm speaking to sisters in this context because I honor and recognize your power. I honor and recognize your power, but you too have to honor and recognize your power. You have to. We're not going to heal the way we need to heal if you do not. We're not going to work. It's not just a man becoming this great leader. That's not how we're going to fix this. You have to be accountable, fully accountable. And at the bottom of it, that's really what it is. It's like we all have to be really accountable for all the things that we've contributed to the downfall of our society. Victims and victors in this experience. And if we don't take an honest inventory of that, it can get worse. It can get real scary. To my sisters, that's what I'm charging y'all with. From my own lens, it's like, you are well and right in how you feel, but watch how you engage based on how you feel. Recognize that. You know what I'm saying? And let me say this too, because I'm so tired. I'm so tired of people, especially in the... And I'm a Christian. Let me preface this. I'm a Christian. I am so tired of people in the church space talking about, you know, all the black man want is... Or all the man want is respect, you know, as to a woman want love. Pause there. We both want love and respect. That's not a separate agenda. We both want love and respect. And our interactions and how we consider each other should reflect that. I'm so tired of hearing it. I'm so tired of hearing it. To be quite honest, I feel like it's ignorant as hell. Like, we both need love and respect. We both need that. You know what I'm saying? You talk to a woman, you talk to a sister crazy, crazy in demeaning. You say, how long she gonna fuck with you? That little... It's a tinge of disrespect. Not a whole plethora of disrespect she gonna go for. No, I agree with you. I think, you know, the way that I understood it was very often men are willing to compromise love for respect. Women are willing to compromise respect for love. Like, the priorities are different for men and women. But I agree that we both need each. Yeah. In my word, I say to myself, them hoes is one and the same. Okay. You know what I'm saying? They one and the same. What was we talking about? They one and the same. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, we can take it to love languages. It's like, you know, whatever concession somebody is asking from you, you know, if you're not operating them things, they'll be like, yo, you being disrespectful. Right. You can say I love you or you won't. You know what I'm saying? But at the end of the day, the proof is in the pudding. Like, I just, I just... Man, we could spend the hours on that. I just feel like we got it. We got to get a little bit more sophisticated with recognizing what we need as a whole and then also recognizing that every individual, although as a collective, is also have their individual needs. Right. And they're not one and the same. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I can't stress that enough. You know what I'm saying? I can't stress that enough. I want to see a world where we are respecting each other. I want to see a world where we're respecting each other and we're not counting each other off. Simply because of our previous trauma. I want to see that with sisters and I want to see that with brothers. I want to... And even in our ratchet spaces, I want us to get to a point where a woman can be butt ass naked and we still carry a level of respect for her just as much as vice versa. Not necessarily the naked piece, but as a woman, a woman can see a man down and out and still carry a level of respect for him because she recognizes humanity is not defined by necessarily the things that he possessed but that the fact that he just merely exists and vice versa. We ain't there yet. We still look at each other in the objectified ways we were taught through systemic racism. So we got some time. We got some time.