 Hey everybody. This is another post tweet jam interview and I'm talking to you with Kurt. Hey Kurt thanks for doing Thanks for being part of this. You're welcome. You're welcome. Thank you Well, it was an interesting topic. So I know I knew we were gonna have a lot of energy But behind the topic of you know, how do we control sprawl with Microsoft Teams? And so it was you know a smaller group very active I think we had again had you know over two million impressions a lot of activity that happened During the one hour. So let's kick things off. It will Kurt. Why don't you introduce yourself and what you do and where you are? well, I mean, I mean in our house in Denmark and second biggest town in the city or whatever you would call it and and what do I do for 22 years almost I've been sharing knowledge about in the beginning about Internet's and that turned out to be a lot of sharepoint and then it turned out to be a lot of office 365 and now it's Microsoft 365 and It's now as you're as well and and what we know so but but but but our Our mission is actually to make the world a better place to work. That's that's what we are. That's what we are aiming at To do and and I think there's a there's a lot of ways to do that with with digital Done, right? I would have to say and for that we need some structure and if we don't have the structure and tell people And I think a few of things that's missing out there Which is also what came out of the the the tweet session was actually that we need to Teach people or at least give them ways of learning how to actually structure things and Because if they don't if they don't know where to put it Then they put it somewhere and another guy would put the same thing another place and then we don't know which of these things are the right thing Which is probably none of them are because Somebody worked on my bite and other people worked on your version of it And then it's for again, and then we've got new versions and nobody actually never watched right or wrong so so and Again, I think that's well anyway, so so yeah what so so so basically what we're doing We're sharing knowledge and and the running conferences online and and in person which we just talked about and And then we have these networking groups That that where we try to get people into small circles or groups where they know each other and trust each other and dare Talk the real story About Microsoft 365 over internet and mean it's also change management information management and whatever we're having groups about You know so I love seeing the questions that are posted out and some of those groups that I've jumped in some of those Conversations to get people engaged and thinking about the kind of common things and for those that aren't familiar with the intra team Events that that go on so if you're looking for a deep dive into how to build a healthy working Internet and collaboration platform for your organization is a great event a lot of international folks that participate there is Speaking and attending so definitely check that out. Well, Kurt. Let's let's start things Let's run through the seven questions and get your dance one of those So the first question we asked which what is sprawl and what are the leading causes of sprawl within Microsoft teams? Yeah, what is sprawl in my definition? It's it's when things get out of hand and and and where you actually get Get stuff lying around and and and people don't know whether it's here or there or as we just talked about you people have different versions of Each document or it's not necessarily documents somebody do it in Whatever and and and there's a ton of ways I don't know the exact number way where you actually can can store files But I mean you think you're storing it in and we have to just today had the problem that we stored a file in Yammer somebody uploaded in Yammer and it's probably not in Yammer. It's probably in Seattle point I don't I don't know that much about it And could be one of a dozen different cloud storage locations as well. Yeah So much. There's a funny we used to talk all the time about needing to enable the bring your own device and and be more flexible on the other the tools that people are customer working with and You know, but at some point you've got to manage all that especially if You work in a regulated industry that you have compliance rules and things that you need to manage and Yeah, that's that's that's that's that's also when I see that's the industries that are that are the best But to the information management Are those and then they'll have the more creative things where things just go out of hand But but then again, perhaps it should go out of hand and because the serendipity should come down That's where the creative ideas come from and which might not happen if you have everything You know, we have to write in boxes and stuff like that That's a great segue the second question, which is exactly to that point So is sprawl a positive or a negative? Is it simply a sign of adoption and growth of Microsoft teams? And I was make that argument. I play the devil's advocate and say it's like well You see a bunch of sprawls like yeah, but people are in there. They're doing things. They're collaborating. They're creating content That's that's a good thing. That's that's a good thing and and and and again I still remember one municipality that was one of these I don't know what you call in English, but they have a buy-and-sell internal in companies and and and actually That that that usually that usually works. No among when you sell stuff among employees So so like a marketplace. Yeah. Yeah kind of yeah internal marketplace, you know And and and I haven't seen any of those that didn't work but it they managed in this municipality because Before you could put it in you have to choose between 16 different categories where you could put it in And then you had to search in different 16 different places to see if there was anything up for sale Obviously, you could see if there was a cat or somebody had a flat in South France for rent or whatever You know, so so it was categorized in a way, but but really that should have been just a stream And that would have worked if that was just in my opinion I'm sure it would have worked and then you can always so so it's really should we Have these strict rules and boxes and put things in And and I'm a great believer in in the beginning. I think you should let all flowers grow and then and then When you find out there's a little bit too many dandelions and then we've had to take all the dandelions and say Hey, you go in that box. So everybody knows now the dandelions over there So if you want to talk to them go there and then the rest of people can and then you can sort of grow it from there and and and it also reminds me of one of our members who V-LOX who's also one of the the examples for use of Microsoft 365, but What what they have they actually have given everybody Access to all the tools in Microsoft 365. We're here a lot of other suck Shutting it down. So right. Yeah trying to control it. But but what they're doing They're very clear about what and which tools they support. So I mean you can use planner Yeah, but but you're on your own if they're not supporting it But they might support to do or or or another tool for for for time management or whatever project management and so on so so it's all That's at least the way they do it But sprawl positive or negative As I said, you know, I think you need to Let the flowers grow and then if it gets out of hand then because I think if you try to To put it too much into boxes people get into too many empty empty rooms and and and they sort of find out Nothing's going on in here, you know Well, that's that's the thing too is if you're doing to your point If you're locking things down too tightly people won't use it Which doesn't mean that they won't collaborate. It usually means they go around you. That's where shadow it happens They will go find another way to get their work done and to collaborate together And so, you know, and we're going to come back to this because it I almost said it I almost said the g word governance We're going to come back to that next question, but uh, so that that's actually question four But question three was What are the risks of sprawl in in microsoft teams if left unmanaged? So it's one thing that you let's say that organization that leaves it wide open But if they never go in, I mean what happens if they never go in and manage and clean that up and they never prune the garden tend to the garden yeah Yeah, I think the garden is is is is a good picture of this because obviously if if nobody's looks after it It it it will get too much wheat in there and and the dandelions and and you won't be able to see the roses because They're they're just disappearing in in in wheat and and everything So so so that's really but but still you can go and you can pick a rose if you want But uh, and and there might be a corner in the garden where somebody is looking after it on on on their own I I still remember once Funnily enough another municipality with a pretty big organizations in in danish terms anyway, but um They saw it nobody used this internet So as I said we could as well just shut it down and then there's suddenly turned out that actually they had um A big a big part of the the nurses The those who were looking after the elderly in in this municipality it turned out that they had they had The the most beautiful structure and everything about everybody knew where everything was you know, so It it it you really have to and so somebody actually looked after it but the big challenge with this as I see it is really that That that you have to be a little bit unpopular if you're the guy going and say hey christian You're not allowed to put your file there You've got to put it over there and you you actually got to tag it with that word because otherwise it won't show up there and and Yeah, I will be it it It's it's it's kind of it's kind of hard to To really get it get it right And well, that's why and I think that's why in the the the next question around governance Like what is the role of governance and preventing? You know preventings or the pre versus or managing which is the post creation sprawl within microsoft teams So that having governance doesn't mean Just locking things down Governance could be getting out of the way letting people do things But one one other important thing that I just thought of this too is that You you brought the perfect example of that one team that seems to be doing things. They're organized They found a functional way. They're collaborating. They're successful They're finding their content. They're creating together while it's chaos elsewhere Is that you can't go and put one blanket set of rules and policies in place For everybody across the organization that you might have very different ways of, you know, subcultures within the corporate culture For working together You do I've if you don't tell nobody I've had a background in financial So I've been cfo, you know, so so and I'm just saying that that's that's a regulated Area where you can't just do things the way you want to do it even though sometimes it would be nice but but But you're you're absolutely right because then again if you go into r&d, obviously they need to be creative and and and have loser Control because otherwise they don't get the great ideas because if you still have to do everything one way, you know Forget it. Then nobody can get a creative idea if you really always have to think about the rules and the regulations That's that that's where you've got to let people go. So so I'm fully with you on that one and and I still remember it at any is CEO we came into a very old-fashioned organization and and and and he just sort of threw out all the mahogany Desks and and everything so nobody was to have those, you know, and everybody was small kings They're in their offices and and everybody he made these big rooms and everybody could sit where they want to sit and and everything this goes 20 years go back, you know or something but but but but but again I came up to him said, hey, not everybody could do that. Oh, okay He admitted because I knew with my background that cfo's. I mean they they I've got all my I've got all my fights here I can't just sit over there Anywhere else because at that stage that was that was what you had in in these Body sinks with the the holes in wake and yeah, the finders. That's right Yeah, so so you got to have them around you. Otherwise you couldn't do your job at that time now you can but but you couldn't then so That's a great example because you know hr and finance obviously you think of like a physical office They have to have a dedicated space because they have Uh sensitive information that needs to be restricted those that can access those kinds of things where whereas the rest of the You know the other teams it and marketing and and support and all can be in a larger area And will collaborate in different ways with each other with the full you know the full group And then you when you want to do it all hands you bring people in so here you have already different kind of segmentation of your collaboration activities And you have to govern your system much in the same way Yeah, right and and and I'm funny enough Talking about another organization that wanted to to use yammer Because that was a Microsoft policy and everything but on the other hand then they were also using sales force So obviously the sales people It made a lot more sense for them to use chatter And and and again So i'm saying Why should they use yammer because the other thing is so much more connected to sales force And and and obviously i'm not saying you couldn't in the way do the same thing but Yeah, do you want to force people to do that and do then this? Yeah, I don't know Well, I have an answer for that having worked in an organization when we had that exact scenario is their integration tools between chatter and yammer So to help bridge the gap. It's not perfect Um, but it helped bridge the gap so that Yeah, yeah, obviously. Yeah, of course there is and and and on the other hand if we take the municipalities We've got the schools the schools have got their Not necessarily a fantastic tool, but they've got kind of their own tool to work with the pupils and and and and the teachers and And and the administration and everything so that that's all in its own but but that's then part of municipality and and and And then they they it's always a challenge for them to actually get into the schools, you know to how do they get their news and information in there so so so how to How to create that but I think a municipality did manage to have sort of put it in there, you know And then they had the menu for for the whole Internet or digital workplace or whatever we should call it max of 365 It's probably going to go in teams or like now soon, right? Well, that's why there's there's so many, you know, there's even uh, you know, education is a Is a standalone topic. There's so many things that Microsoft is developing that are unique to that which kind of points back to um, you know, Microsoft realizes that for you know, public sectors of government entities and for education And for healthcare that there are you know different needs that are specific to industry Companies should also be thinking about what's nuanced. What's different about what our needs are So I always argue that, you know, governance can take you so far of management of looking at You know, something like Microsoft teams How are we organized? How are people collaborating? We don't want to get in the way But we need to do it in a responsible well managed and compliant and secure way And so where are we seeing that we that that we need to Provide guardrails in some areas and other areas be wide open and then manage between that yeah Well, so the next question too, we started to touch on a little bit You were talking about specific solutions that the fifth question was what are three technology solutions? It doesn't have to be three if you go and think of one or two. That's fine But technology solutions to managing sprawl in teams So when you think of tooling to help manage sprawl It doesn't have to be a product name, but like a No, I wouldn't I would think that the whole structure Structuring the things is is the tool in in a way If you can call it a tool, but but but I think that's the exercise you need to To try to run through. I mean again if we're talking about this flowering garden, you know And we need to find find some of these sections where we can say and we actually have Another exam that came up with the tax authorities that that actually had their support call and and every time So they're they're located three different places in danmark and and And and and the experts said the experts are how do we get hold of the experts? How do I make sure if i'm One of those picking up the phone and getting a call from christian Hey, how do I do with my tax over vat or whatever, you know, and I say it's a personal tax Yes, personal tax. Okay. So okay, so so write down your Your query and I say I'll just check up on that christian and then what they actually do they write they they've got a a team I feel hard to say a teams but a teams And and and in that they got channels and and and they got channels for personal tax and company tax and vat And whatever there is and then they've got experts on each of these channels So there's an expert in each of these channels looking after it. So I'll type this one in into the channel. That's relevant Or I might even find the answer there from somebody else. If I look in there I can search and have things but but I can answer you so christians got this Tax blah blah blah and then I get something over here. That's that's a rule that applied to you or that's 17 percent Or whatever the answer is, you know, I get it. I get it there So so you can have people who are not necessarily Very clever in in tax and everything but the experts are of course know what they're doing So it's so so what I'm saying one of the tools is is actually is structuring And again, if you have a good structure, you will be sure that people But again, if you make it too strict in the you won't have it there, but but but I mean Again, it's a matter of because if I look over here, I'm used to put it off here and and yeah Oh the reason that there's one. Oh, there's there's two Where's they have many editions of this? Book what one of us is going on here and and and and I know bill of so they found out they had 9.6 versions of each document And and that was because if we just had it Put in once, you know Then everybody would look in this copy and we would take all the rest of these copies And we just simply put them up next to the other one right and then and and and then everybody can see here's all the versions of it Yeah Yeah, I have to say that curt that felt a bit staged that you just had copies of the book there with all the different versions out there But it makes the point there. Well, I mean they're the same. They're the same. Yeah, no, I don't They're books we give away for our speakers because it's actually a book about hookah If you haven't heard about that the danies hookah, you know Yeah, well, there's so they're you know, the next question was around you kind of you Moved over into that which is what are the three soft skills or best practices in managing sprawl microsoft teams So part of that is you know having that plan building a structure going through that Back on the tools and structure side of that they they kind of blur the line sometimes between them One of the things that I think is is very very important is having and there's a number of third party solutions that are out there for Moving content around there microsoft has tools and isv's have different tools And yes, there's a other kind of scripts and and a lot of expertise out there moving that But I think it's part of what I constantly Taut is the fact that Especially as the volume of content grows so rapidly within microsoft teams We're seeing customers approaching us as an isv More and more about doing teams to teams migrations And I I don't like the word migration here It's more I look at it more as change management like if it if you're you have a reorg If you want to you find that there's Vast sprawl and you need to go in and restructuring clean up and you want to be able to to move content between it That's that's something to Consider as part of your strategy depending on the volume of content and how often that you find yourself Uh, you know in that world I mean I I remember when I was a share point admin when that was part of my role or my team's role in the Systems that we owned You know, we were constantly restructuring And cleaning up orphan share point sites and orphan content and duplicate content. That was an ongoing Service that we provided was to clean that up And so that's why I look at it more of like an ongoing. What does the business need to do? Let's not get caught up in What is the what is the technology? Dictate that we go and do let's do what's right for the business We'll go through the pains of moving things around because it's what the business needs Yeah But that's one way that we control sprawl is is You know sometimes going in there doing these Yeah And and again, I mean tools again is is to make sure that people don't necessarily create And it's always a challenge because you Somehow you've got to it's got to be easy to make a new teams if we're not a collaborate with people On the other hand, it's it's it's damn stupid that I make the tense Teams about the same topic instead of sort of getting into the other teams. I mean one of the So Yeah, that's why having like a formal provisioning process Where there's there's like a survey on the front end of that where you're In part of that survey when they say here's the purpose Here's the name and then it will go in and utilize the ai to go search through and say hey are these potentially similar Teams that already exist. Yeah, exactly That's that's uh, that's a that's a very clever way because uh, I still remember Somebody who actually one of the series Few few serious working Few serious companies working with search and and but but Even though they've they worked with it Very intensively They had a conference internal conference on that people over for mexico And it turned out that that people from mexico Were actually is spent years many man hours many years In developing a product that turned out that so had they've been doing in copenhagen They didn't know that the other company was actually working on the same Yeah product or whatever, you know and and and but they they they found out that because they called it two different things And the search engine wasn't able to sort of connect these things. So so again again, it's it's Ai is good. But but but I think it's good to support people But but I still think in the end we need we need we still still need people to to actually Help that along but but but but we need tools that that that can that can help us here We need people we need information architecture It's so funny that so many of the problems that play you and I have been doing this for long enough We could talk about you know in the in the early days of information management systems But the fact that the problems that we're having in the modern technologies Are still the fundamentals of the first portal that I built in the mid 1990s You know around needing to have the right information architecture taxonomy around the content that we're adding in and then finding that balance between automated and manually input so that again to direct people massage them into Doing the right thing in the right way And that's a constant battle it's it's a constant battle and and and I think I don't know. I think some of the vendors and and now because everything is artificial intelligence I mean, it's just solving everything all our problems going to be solved with that But I just think that there's so many examples and and and Agnes more than us also been up with You know say, yeah, it's very good. We've got this document and nobody really should look at but but by coincident Kurt comes into this document and he suddenly presses Space in there and he edits this document and now it turns up for all his colleagues that That that he's now edited this because artificial intelligence just realized that kurt has been into this document He's actually put in a space in this document It must be an error Wrong document and now everybody goes in and look at what what what is going on? You know and and and and and then this is where somebody should be able to stop that in a way, you know, but Yeah, and and and yeah, okay. So no, but yeah Okay, yeah, you know, sorry. I know this is we don't have time to jump into it But it just made me think about how was it microsoft released their pure ai and within 24 hours It yeah, yeah, it got polluted, you know It's a similar We could sort of trick the system But but I mean it's the same as as one guy I heard who was responsible for a page and he was and he actually got Because the kpi's was right if he he got he got paid for how many likes he looked at his pages on internet So so whenever whenever he had time he was sitting f5 f5 f5 to reload the pages And so it it ticked up, you know, so so he got a good salary and When people understand how they're being measured they will Change their behavior to optimize that measurement That's human nature. It really scares me because I've got a friend who's who's into he's going for one of the big six or big four Or wherever they call today consultancy companies or accounting companies and and and and and he just told me I have got no clue how my bonus is worked out. I have got the faintest idea how they do it So i'm just thinking about ali and whatever's coming into Into beaver now with the with the kpi's and and Yeah, I think now it's viva goals. It has it's new. Oh, yeah viva goals. Yes. Yes. Yes, I know I know but but but I think in instead of kpi's it should be kpi's So we should measure the key behavior Indicators so we should make sure that people actually behave the way they do and not just make them Get paid for opening new accounts so that that people in a bank. I'm not mentioning their name here but there was a bank that actually ended up Giving people bones for how many accounts they opened and it it sort of Tempted employees to open accounts and credit cards and whatever for people that they didn't ask for But they got bonuses and okay. Yeah Yeah, no the story perhaps sprawling a different way if you say well too many credit cards and accounts So kurt with our last couple minutes here the final question Um, I don't know if you have any thoughts about this, but what else can or should Microsoft do to curb sprawl in Microsoft teams Well, I've I think I think it's it's probably impossible because sometimes I wish they would sort of Invent with a little more Speed a little bit slower and perhaps do it a little bit better But I know I'm not going to get through with that because I just know that if if they do that somebody else is going to overtake them while they're in the pit to get The end and looked after to make sure everything is right. So I think too much is is sometimes thrown out on the street. I mean we can take weaver I mean as far as I'm concerned among my members there's only I think there's only connections that's actually being used I've got I've got nobody saying hey topics is good I've got nobody saying yeah, we're looking into learning We're looking into topics, but we it's not mature enough And it's and it's a year gone at least, you know And and insights is the same thing takes a lot of effort to get there a lot of And actually just mentioning insights and it's perhaps just a little coincidence or a little error or something But but but now it I actually enjoy it getting these emails Which I believe is a kind of my personal insights or something Where it comes up it actually reads my emails and I realize that I sent you an email I didn't but I could have sent you an email Three days ago and say hey, did you see this or and and then it sort of tells me hey You send an email to christian did you get an answer for that or should I remind you tomorrow or will you Click here and then you go directly to the email I think that's that's that's a fantastic help actually because now I don't have to Look after it, but now when I click on this email it won't load. I don't get nothing in there I mean it can be it can be small problems, but it's just sometimes, you know Where I often think about this story about the massive phagoson tractors from 1990 I don't know if you're familiar with those but but jerry mcgovern told me about those in one of his newsletters And and and and it's actually so whether if if you look at the farmers They much prefer a tractor massive phagoson from 1990 to a new tractor. You know why? Because it's got four wheels got an engine and it can run it can do the job in the field And if it breaks which seldom happens, then they can fix it themselves or or the the blacksmith up in town can do it Uh, if he's just I mean you can weld it or whatever Whatever happens to it, but if you have one of these new modern tractors and that breaks Yeah, well you've got to have somebody flown in from whatever and the internet connection and and and there's nobody who knows What what's going on in the computers of this tractor and everything it's not just the tractors It's cars are the same way, but it's you know, you know There was a little bit back and forth at the end of the tweet jam On this on this point where I think a couple of comments that were made and I I made something similar saying I don't know that there's anything that microsoft needs to do on the end of this To some degree we need to be we need to go in and work with what we have we need to it has more to do with Managing what we already have than it is needing new features Which is not to say I think we're the the back and forth happened Which is not to say that there are not Things that microsoft can innovate that they can change to improve The way that the solutions work. There's always going to be suggestions and things that they can go and do But there is so much that's out there That we have control over today That we're not utilizing the tools. We're not utilizing the features We're not taking the time to go and plan and build the governance and things around that And so it's it's less on microsoft and is more on us as consumers of the platform to go in there and to organize ourselves Yeah, and and again I I think one of the things also is that The people us who are in this field we love the new things I mean, I can't make a new Into team news next week if if if there isn't anything new in there So obviously I promote the new stuff everybody working with this look at the new shiny stuff, you know and and just back to Jerry McGovern, I'm a great fan of Jerry McGovern and and and and he was he was hosting A conference in 1990 in 1999. I think About this and he had this girl talking about information management In 1999 and and and and that was a great session Jerry sort, you know, and and and lady got sort of A moderate applause Then came the guy talking talking about in 1999 about the personal assistant And everybody was whoa. Whoa fantastic 1990 1999 and We're we're sort of there for some things now, right? That was right at the beginning of sass I mean that was a new term for most people still and so being able to get access to that that that that was that was the era, you know Yeah, yeah, I'm I'm no no but the idea is that people were this guy couldn't be He couldn't be anywhere people were just sort of following him what Jerry told me and and and no and nobody was interested in the In in in the girl who was actually doing the the boxing and making sure things were in the right place, you know Right, right. Nobody nobody Felt that was interesting And I don't yeah, I'm just saying it's again different people types. I just think sometimes I think we need Somebody in in it. That's also a little bit more Square and not necessarily just running after all the new and fancy stuff Yeah Well, agreed. Well, listen, I know we're at a time here kurt really appreciate you the time and If you're interested in getting in touch with kurt, I've got all this contact information both Within the youtube as well as the blog post and so hopefully get a few more people over to your Your next conference, but hope to see you soon Same to you this adventure out your way and we'll talk to you soon Same to you christian. What's the pleasure? Thank you very much