 Okay, one o'clock rock, he run Think Tech, Think Tech Global, I'm Jay Fiedella, and the fella next to me is Richard Wertheimer. He's an investment advisor with Morgan Stanley, and much more. And he is a very close friend of our host, Crystal Quark, very close, very close. More than? Yes. Usually friends. That's debatable. I think she might have a more contractual... Yeah, okay, well, all right, but whatever it is, it's close enough. Anyway, so we're going to talk about Go West to China Young Man today. And indeed, you know, Richard did do that. It's one of those great stories, which I saw as I edited the footage of some on-location footage we took at the Harvard Club back in, I want to say May, it might have been April. And it turned into a really great discussion with Richard sort of explaining where he'd been and what he'd been doing for the past, how many years, 30? 32 years, yeah. 32 years, early 80s. And so I wanted to recapture that today and sort of introduce him to you so you can appreciate a guy who did what I admire very greatly. He picked up sticks, he went to China, an American adventurer, something perhaps we should all do, yeah? Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I think, no matter what you're doing, whether it's going to China or going across the street, it is important to try different things. I had the benefit of being young and, and I know the word is maybe full hearty or brave or, you know, foolish or, I think naive is probably the better word, and just decided to go and went, went for it. So what made you make this decision? It's important for them, they should know. To frame it. I guess I had the, I was lucky enough to spend a year in France and I came from a humble background in Brooklyn, New York, which didn't really know much about the outside world a bit, but living in France really sort of, you know, opened my eyes to the possibilities of language and culture and just as a big world out there. And as a youngster growing up with Vietnam in the background, I was always intrigued by Asia and Japan was obviously rising during the 70s and 80s and so my attention was drawn that way. And for some reason, China just was one of these big unknowns. It was huge sort of old culture and Japan seemed like it had already been, already opened up and, you know, there was a modern-day Marco Polos were already there. And so I thought, well, let's learn Chinese and go to, a better way to do it than just to go there and do it. Was it in that order, learn Chinese first and go there or go there and learn Chinese? No, it was both. I think it was both. The order, having lived in France and understanding it to really learn the language, the best way to do that is to actually, it's to be an enabler when you go. Correct. And it's fun. It's more interesting. It's more interactive. I'm definitely that type of, you know, I'm less of a, more now I'm more of a, I can do the books, but at that age I was not as interested in school. And so when I was done with high school, I decided not to go to university. I just basically bought a one-way ticket and went to China or tried. Wow. Yeah, that was... Did you have a plan? Did you have a job, for example? No. No, I had no job. I didn't have much of a plan. I just thought I would wing it. Again, I think when you're, when you're younger, I don't think you think about the consequences of your actions because I seem to have that conversation with my kids daily. They're trying to teach you the same with difference. Yeah, but it's... And you kind of hear yourself in the background going, it doesn't... They're not going to get it. You didn't get it. Why would they get it? And, yeah, so I just kind of showed up there. I remember being on the flight over and I think the stewardess or flight attendant asked me, you know, where are you going? Where are you going to live? And I said, I don't know. You know, I was just going to sort of figure it out. They have youth hostels here? I hope... I mean, I might have had the name of a hotel or something. Yeah, but it wasn't hard. Yeah, it was starting from a low base. And so that was really the beginning of it. It was an adventure. That's what it was supposed to be. And those are great memories. There were difficulties and a lot of unknowns, but I'm still here. And, you know, I picked up a couple of things along the way, hopefully mostly good things. Now, I remember from making the movie and remarks at the Harvard Club was that you could only stay there for a certain time before the Chinese government decided that maybe you shouldn't be there. Yeah, back in those days, and I didn't know this. I didn't do a lot of research on it. It was, China was still fairly closed. And in order to go, you had to be part of the university program. So when I went there, I stayed for a little while and then I found out that I had to leave because I wasn't part of the university program. There were a couple that had arrangements, but I didn't go to university. So I just remember asking the... They said, so you're going to have to go to... So I want to learn Chinese. You have to go to Taiwan. And, you know... We're going to do this. So this is a memorable thing. There was this conversation where they said, Richard, you're going to have to leave now. And he said, we're not going to go. And they say, you have to go to Taiwan. And you say, Taiwan? Well, I don't want to learn Thai. As in Thailand. Yeah, I didn't know the difference. I wasn't really sure where Taiwan was. So, yeah, they... I ended up in Taiwan. It was great. A lot of folks back in the old days, a lot of sonologists and just guys who were interested in China ended up in Taiwan because that was open. It was free. You can learn the language. So that's where I ended up. And then eventually when things opened up, which was pretty quickly, I was able to go back to China. Oh, is that right? Yeah. But I spent a number of years in Taiwan, which was great. Very different. It's a wonderful place. People are super friendly and nice. And particularly now, China has changed and there's a lot of... So how old are you in all this? You say it out of high schools. I was 19. 19? Yeah. And by yourself? By myself. Yeah, on my own. How many people do that? Do you ever feel, at least in those days, a lack of security, a lack of safety, a threat in some way by being this howly guy in the middle of a, you know, of a Chinese society? Actually, I felt more threat in New York, I mean, to be honest. I mean, that, you know, sort of tongue-in-cheek, but really, it's a very safe place. It still is. I mean, whether it's Taiwan or Hong Kong or even China, China is down a little more chaotic, but it was very structured and very controlled. So there was no danger in terms of, there was a lot less danger from a personal point of view. The unknowns were the things that were, the things we weren't familiar with. That was the fun part. See, no, I never felt that at all. And, you know, I think that even to this day, the kids walk around in the streets, you know, young kids going to school, taking the subway by themselves. So from that point of view, there wasn't that much. I mean, in the beginning, maybe a bit apprehension, because you don't know, but you quickly get a sense that that wasn't the danger. It was the danger of just trying to, the challenges were, how do you get yourself understood and talking to people. English was a lot less prevalent than it is now. But there's still, Did you find you had a skill with language that you could pick up? When I was in France, I had a good knack for languages. I pick them up fairly quickly. And I've got a really good ear so I can imitate well. And that was part of the fun. So like anything, learning language is about time and interest. And if you have the two, if you have to put the time in, and if you're interested in it, then it's great. I think that's an easier way to do it. It's not forceful. I was 19. I was interested in meeting young ladies. Absolutely. That was one of the incentives. I mean, back then, sure. I mean, it was not being able to communicate with people and particularly wanting to find girls and have fun. That was a big incentive. I was 19 in China. Even now, I mean, it's different though. It's a very different animal than what it was back then. Then it was, particularly for China, it was like going to the moon. I mean, it was a completely closed society. The experiment, the communists had been running in China. Very different from now. Now it's a very different animal in terms of what the excitement is. But then it was very super interesting. It really was like you were in this planet. It was in transition. It was transition. It hadn't even started. It was just starting. So you still had that old closed system where people tended to dress the same. They looked the same, same haircuts. The market economy hadn't taken off. It was still very closed and very regulated. How are you living? I mean, you're getting money from home or do you have a job? Eventually, well, when I got to, after I had enough money in China, eventually I went to Taiwan. I got a job working at a trading company called, I'll never forget it, Atachi. Not Hatachi, but A. The Chinese work? Yes. Oh, just for A as opposed to H. That's how the Taiwanese did it. And it's the trading company. I think they made irons and different type of... So you were driving a taxi also. Eventually, over the years, about a year or so, maybe two years into it, I worked for a number of different companies and I ended up going back to university. I took the entrance exam in Chinese, which I failed miserably. They thought I was socialistic. I didn't want to be with foreigners. You go through this... I didn't want to fail. Well, I think they wanted me to fail, but they wanted me to... Well, I think they were confused as why anybody would want to be in... why a Hollywood would want to go to a Chinese university, not with other Halleys. And that was the difference. For me, it was about language more than anything else in culture. I wanted to be with... I spent years of trying to be more Chinese than the Chinese. And then you wake up one day and you realize, you know, I like hamburgers. You know, it's okay. You know, after you've been drinking snake blood and snake bladder and all sorts of weird stuff. But I can still do it, but you realize... I'm from New York. I'm a New Yorker. I like a ham... I like a good, you know, a good Pastrani sandwich. There's a place in Beijing, by the way, called Frankie's. I don't know if you're... I don't know. Frankie's is a hamburger joint. Okay. It's really wonderful. Okay. You know, after you're finished with all the Chinese food adventure, go to Frankie's. Yeah. I mean, it's... But back then, you didn't have a choice. There was no Western... I mean, there were very few outlets. Taiwan was the same thing. Hong Kong was a bit different because it had been, you know, controlled by the British and it was that much more international. But I didn't want that at that point. I wanted to learn as much as I could about China. And Mandarin has spoken in China. Correct. And Taiwan. Correct. And then you wound up not only driving a cab, but you wound up playing on the Taiwan national soccer team. Rugby team. Rugby. Yeah. I played rugby in France. Football. Yeah. Well, I actually... Rugby. Rugby. But they... Yeah. So I just... I guess at the university, I met some folks and I played rugby and I ended up playing for the school team and then I ended up playing for the national team, which sounds better than it is. They're not bad, but it was more for the experienced meeting people and really... I friend of mine had a cab, and he let me drive one and I ended up driving, you know, becoming the first and my guess is probably the only foreign taxi driver in Taipei. I got stopped at the same red light twice by the same policeman with no license, as you can imagine. It was an interesting conversation. The first time wasn't so friendly. The second time was friendly. He's getting used to you. He's going to be you again, going through a red light. These were different days. There weren't as many cars in the road. Again, things have changed dramatically. You can't do that now. But back then it was the wild east or wild west. Yeah, but you're right. I think it's a really important point. Over 30 years, over 30, whatever years, things have been very dynamic in Asia. And luckily, there haven't been any major wars in that period of time. So there's been incredible economic activity and growth. So you were there during the period of growth and kind of coming together of Asia, a lucky time. It is almost hard to put into words how dramatic that change is. And often, I have to bite my tongue when I'm with people in Shanghai or I spent most of my time in Shanghai in Beijing or just around China. Because I'm always pointing out and saying, you can't believe how much this place has changed. It is phenomenal. It's beyond belief. What they have done is really it's... That's great. You're telling the Chinese how their place has changed. That's a different conversation. When I tell people, so you've been, do you speak Chinese? Yes. You've been in China for how long? There aren't many folks. I was part of the first group. I wasn't the first group. There was one in front. But I was basically that second wave of foreigners of the U.S. nationals because there was normalization of relations with the U.S. that went in. And so when I tell people that I was there that long, often some of these folks, it's a very youthful conversation. They're graphic. They're graphic. There was a big part of it, at least. And they are... They're like, you were there before I was. Or a lot of folks that did the opposite, they ended up going to the United States. So I'll meet... I was in China while they were in the U.S. and I'll know things about China in some levels in some ways more than they were. We're going to take a break. Okay. That's Richard Wertheimer. He's with Morgan Stanley, an investment advisor. And he did go west to China, a young man, as a young man. And we're here on Think Tech Global. And we're going to take one minute and come back. We're going to find out how this all translates to today's younger generation. I'm so excited to hear about that. Be right back. Welcome to ThinkCatHawaii.com. This is Johnson Choi. I'm the host for the weekly Thursday, 11 o'clock show, co-ation review. See you next month. Hi. My name is Kim Lau and I'm the host of Hawaii Rising. You can watch me live. Every other Monday at 4 p.m. Aloha. Hello. I'm Patrick Bratton. I'm a host of Global Connections. I'm also a professor at Hawaii Pacific University. And my show and some of the other things that we do is show soft the collaboration that we have between Think Tech Hawaii and Hawaii Pacific University. So I look forward to seeing you and talking with you about a lot of issues dealing with Hawaii, the United States, and the world. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Okay. My name is Richard Wertheimer, a China expert. Are you a China expert? No. I think I'm a... I would say I'm a student, a long-term student of China. I think using the word as we were just talking, expert I think is dangerous because it's a... In any place, particularly a country as big and as complicated as China, to say you're an expert on it is I think is dangerous. But yes, I've been looking familiar with China. What I get is you're a guy who is adventurous and curious and willing to go all in in order to connect up with a given culture, especially a culture outside the U.S. and so you immersed yourself. You really went to some length to immerse yourself. Yeah. I did. I mean, that was part of it. Part of it for language reasons and also cultural reasons. I didn't want to spend time with fellow Westerners. That was... Well, that was why... You could, and you could still learn a lot and have a great time. My path was... That was my intention. You almost have this Marco Polo syndrome in China and Taiwan as well where you think you're the only one there and you would see another foreigner and you'd be like... I thought I was the only one. Or you would just... You'd blank him. You'd ignore him. He doesn't even exist. There's a lot of romanticism with China. Obviously, that has completely changed. I mean, now, the China today is a... The changes are a problem. Yeah. Well, it's not just Western and international now and still very Chinese, but it's something new. It's the future. I mean, when you talk about China today and you describe it to people and you say you should go there and you should get involved. Because it is, in many ways, the future. I think not just the US, but I mean, I think most of the West, I don't think they really fully appreciate it. We don't have time to go into it right now, but when I made the footage, when I edited the footage of Richard's talk at the Harvard Club, there were some really sophisticated points you made about exactly how the politics works, how the public thinking works, how the leaders relate in order to the population, how they try to stay in power. You made some really interesting statements about power and how people need to stay in power, what they need to do to stay in power. Things that we in the US really don't think about, don't know about. So that level of sophistication... And we're going to post this show as edited on OC16 next couple of weeks, so you should look for it. So anyway, so now you're in Taiwan, and somewhere along the line you wind up in Hong Kong. But in Hong Kong, they speak neither Thai nor Mandarin. They speak Cantonese. They speak everything, but you're absolutely right. It is Cantonese. Yeah, I had spent a number of years in Taiwan and China at that point working the financial services business and then ended up in Hong Kong. At that point I was already developing my career and Hong Kong was the international city. And as an international city, it had obviously Cantonese, but it's English. The British were still there. It was still a British colony. It was a very easy place to live. Things worked. It's the hardware versus software model. Like in China, they have all the hardware, but the software is still being developed. Whereas in Hong Kong you've had 150 years of that software development. So it's an international city. And so I ended up in Hong Kong. No, I could not use my Mandarin. I mean, it's quite funny because when I first got there, as a lot of us did who were from China and Taiwan, we wanted to use our Mandarin. And you would go into a taxi or you'd meet people and you'd open up and you didn't want to speak English because you wanted to use your Chinese. You'd spend a lot of time on there. And people wouldn't speak to you. They actually lived down because they lived down on China. But in those days, Hong Kong was the rich cousin, the small man, the Chinese were poor country bumpkins. Today, when I go to Hong Kong and I speak Mandarin, all people want to do is speak Mandarin with me because the position no longer there. This is a Chinese colony now or a Chinese territory. They know that soon enough they're going to have to speak Mandarin. Well, it's happening now. I mean, and you could, for better or for worse, it has changed. I mean, this is, things change. And the wonderful thing about having spent time in Taiwan and China and Hong Kong and having seen, things do change. I mean, even the United States, you kind of, you watch, sometimes we don't expect, you think things will just stay the way it is. And it's not necessarily the way it is. If you look at history, I mean, there's always changes inevitable. And so you need to be prepared for it. And the Hong Kong people are dealing with that right now. Are you saying that Hong Kong is going to be, as I expect anyway, swallowed up into China? China is, there may be uses to have Hong Kong look independent to a certain degree, but at the end of the day, we swallow it right up. Absolutely. I mean this, I don't begrudge them. It's theirs. You can be all nostalgic for the old British days or the colonial days, but the reality is, it's the Chinese, China controls it. It is happening now. I don't know if the analogy, like the frogs in the water as being boiled is the right one, but it's happening now. If you're there, the fabric of the place is changing. It's like any organization, country, the top, the folks that control the head man sets the tone, and that's it. And that's what we're seeing, is that the fabric, I think, of the place has changed. You were there for the umbrella. I was there for, I actually was, not the day of, I mean, I was still living there, but I think we were in New York at that time for some reason. I can't remember some, we wanted to be there, but I think we were glad we weren't, because it was, as well meant to, in the 97 you were talking about, right? Yeah. Because it rained like. No, I mean, the umbrella people in the street. Oh, there. I was there. This was about two years ago. Two years ago. Yeah, I was there. That was strange. I think, unfortunately, you know, my heart might go out with those folks. I think it's just unrealistic. I think they need to wake up, and this is, you're, this is a fit of complete. You can't change China controls Hong Kong, and as time goes on, it will be more and more within China's orbit. There's a sense of manifest destiny there, and you know, I don't want to get too much into this, but there is other things to talk about. But, you know, we've had the whole South China Seas business going on, with the tribunal and the Hague, and whatnot, a decision that, that it runs against China for a lot of reasons. But it seems like, to me, China sees this, that also is a manifest destiny thing. Historically, although it's a little concocted, historically, they think they own the South China Seas, and they want more territory. They want more power, hegemony. And they're not going to stop, and maybe at the end of the day, whatever the Hague says. Yeah, I think that's true, but I think, as I mentioned in the talk, it's, the thing you always have to ask for China, at least what I look at it, is what is the motivation to keep, or what is it that keeps the party in control? So everything starts from that. It's less that they're looking to be territorially expansionist, they won't have confrontation. It's more about, what do we have to do to appease the masses, to appease our people, and our constituents, whoever they are, so that we, the party can justify our having control of the country. I think it starts from there. So that's always the first question you have to ask with anything, particularly international related issues, is that's what's driving it. It's not that China has some desire to go global. I mean, I remember I was in Hong Kong, we were looking, I was at the George Washington aircraft carrier with a friend of mine from the embassy, an American chap, who was part of the first group of students to go into China. And we were talking in Mandarin with, there hadn't to be a Chinese PLA, a senior admiral individual, we didn't know that at the time, exactly who he was. And so we started chatting, and one of the two things happened, one thing he said, this is a few years ago, this is before South China Sea, but he was adamant that having the American involvement, that sort of packs for mana, to keep things stable was more important. Now that's changing a bit as China sort of grows and becomes economically and politically and militarily stronger. The other thing was fun with that event, so here we are, too, how he's talking in fluent Mandarin to this admiral, we come off the boat, and because nobody was with him, and you could see his handler was looking at us going, uh-oh, he's been compromised, you know. Get that man changed. Right, right. So it's pretty funny. But yeah, so I think some of, I mean, this is real, but I wouldn't put too much emphasis on that expansion. I'm not saying that the United States doesn't, shouldn't, or the rest of the world, pay attention and meet those challenges, but in a, I think you have to put it in context. Yeah, you have to understand it. You can't stand back like Donald Trump and look at this mono-dimensional kind of look at it. And that's the point you made at the Harvard Club, too. The leaders in China, just like the leaders in this country, have constituents, and they play to the constituents. Yeah. Maybe in a different way, but it's the same thing. It's a different, I mean, they have a contract, a little bit different than what we have, but you know, there's some similarities, I guess, but it really is, as China has been transitioning and the economy is growing at a certain pace, it basically keeps people happy, but the contract is growth for political, for survival. For political involvement. So you're not really part of the political process. You don't have the rule of law is not really carried out. Maybe it's in the book somewhere, but written on a piece of paper, but it's not actually implemented. I think that is the difference. And so, and that's the real, as I mentioned in the talk, China's going to have to figure out how to manage that. My view is that they're going to continue on keeping their foot on the gas pedal to keep the economy growing until they can figure out how to make that full transition. Very interesting to watch, which takes me to my last question, my last series of questions. You know, it's Richard Wertheimer and it's 2016. And Richard Wertheimer is out of high school, he's 19 years old, he's spent a little time in Europe, maybe he opened his eyes and now he looks west and he looks to China as another adventure, a way to immerse himself in another culture and really, you know, live life to the fullest, if I can say that. Does he do that now? Is it different now? Absolutely. It's just a different experience, but it's even more important. Before it was more fun. It was an adventure. It's still an adventure now, but China now is the second largest economy world. It's going to be the first largest economy world. I think I was mentioning before, I think there's too few people in the West appreciate and actually take the time, make the commitment to learn and to really get over to China. I mean, I... American, Chinese. Well, yeah, it was harder for them actually. They have a lot of baggage, if you will, while you don't speak Chinese. Not really fair to them, but no, I would, to the point that I think it's an incredibly exciting, a dynamic place. It's exhausting and exhilarating at the same time. I mean, that's how I find China. And if you're young, it's great. I mean, yes, there's pollution and there's all sorts of problems on that front socially, but it is an incredibly fun and dynamic. They're trying and they're experimenting. They want to invent new things. So, I mean, even for... So the answer is yes, you should absolutely go. I basically... Strong arm my nephew to spend time in Shanghai. Now he's in Beijing. We did that when he was in university and now he just graduated and he's there and having the time of his life. So if I was 19-year-old again, I would absolutely... You would find me in Shanghai or Beijing, probably Shanghai, for further. Vietnam would be also a very interesting place to go, but not on the same level. That would be probably more of the old school. But it's all part of the same neighborhood, though. You know, on a given weekend, you say, I think I'll get out. I'll go to Vietnam this weekend. It's all an hour or two away. People are... They're trying to... There's a sense when you're in China and they aren't resting. People are... I mean, that work ethic that y'all... It works so hard. They really are working hard. I mean, they... And they're willing to deal with all sorts of problems. They're not entitled. They're... We have to be careful. We have to be there. We have to be educated. There's a reason why Schwartzman from Blackstone is, I think, a $200 million grant for Americans to go and learn Chinese. I mean, he's supporting those. He sees that if you... If this is going to be a challenger, potentially, for... Not in a... I don't mean that in a... In a... In a Holocaust way. I mean, it might be. But you need to know your... The other players in the game. You know? And so if you don't understand, we're at a disadvantage. And so for me, I've spent time when I've done it. I would definitely do it again. I think we need more people to do it now. It's more important if we don't... They're going to eat our lunch. I mean, in some ways... Having said that, though, they also have their problems. I mean... We have to understand those problems, too. We have to understand that. And so it's not... It's not not saying that it's... It's a one-way street. But we do have to understand that because it could also... And actually, if their problems, given the fragility of... Our problems. Of their problems, they become our problems, exactly. And that's why you need to understand. Well, this is now... We're at the end of our show, Richard. Sure. This is when I usually turn to my guest and I say, you know, could you please tell the people... And we have a picture of a bunch of kids drinking in a bar over there. Could you... Could you tell the people, you know, give them your advice. Give those 19-year-olds your advice on how to do this. What kind of frame of mind. How you, you know, pack up your stuff and go west, young man, young woman to China. However, in your case, I want to make it a little different. Could you tell them this in Mandarin? Are you sure? Okay. How do you go now? You know, over there, actually, the life is very... It's not too complicated. You need to have more friends. If you want to learn this language, I think the first language is a tool. If you learn this language well, you can understand a lot of things. If you don't understand the language, then there's no way. So I think the first one is a very exciting place. I don't know if it's China or Taiwan or Hong Kong. I think China is more interesting in China. So I think if you go over there, no matter how you go, don't be with the foreigners. You have to get to know more about those local people. Get to know each other. Get to know each other. This is a very good opportunity. I think the future for yourself is a good thing for the whole world. You know, I know a little Mandarin, so I want to make a final translation for our audience. What he said was, it takes a little chutzpah. But that's what you should do. Thank you, Richard Wertheimer. Pleasure.