 it's kind of like an extension of your body right? When your body feels extra tired or dehydrated you're going to give it what it needs you know supplements water more sleep more rest if you're also going through a mental sort of you know situation your skin will reflect that and in Korea there's actually a saying that your skin reflects your mental condition and so that's kind of the difference right and if you think about it all makes sense we've just kind of never really had that approach before this is Sarb to storefront the podcast where we inspire entrepreneurship through truth today's guests are Sarah Lee and Christine Chang co-founders of the k-beauty inspired glow recipe in this age of globalization and cross-cultural influence it certainly seems like South Korea is having its moment in the sun between k-pop Korean barbecue and k-beauty South Korean culture is really taking the world by storm Christine and Sarah met while they were working for L'Oreal in Korea but it wasn't until they had moved to New York City that they saw the potential in being a distributor for k-beauty products in the States it wasn't long before the American consumer was snatching up everything they offered and ever the savvy entrepreneurs they capitalized on the success to dive into manufacturing their own products as well so listen in as we cover everything from how there's no one-size-fits-all skin type and therefore no one-size-fits-all skin care why the beauty industry needs to stop using unrealistic terms like poreless and flawless and we take a deep dive into their shark tank experience how they struck a deal with robert and why they ended up walking away from that deal after the episode aired now back to the episode welcome to the podcast on today's show we're talking a glow recipe thanks so much for joining guys sarah tell everyone a little bit about glow recipe hi thanks for having us i'm sarah lee and i'm here with my co-founder christine chang and we're both here today to talk about glow recipe and just a little intro about the company glow recipe was co-founded by the two of us about six years ago and it was actually founded because of our friendship christine and i have been friends for over 15 years and we initially met back in korea where we were both working at l'oreal korea offices as marketers and product developers for some reason completely unplanned and coincidentally we ended up being in the new york office around the same time in 2008 and we ended up working for similar brands but within the l'oreal umbrella again still continuing our career paths in marketing and product development departments it was so great to see you know another fellow korean in the office and we would catch up very frequently about you know what projects we were working on and we realized that for our respective brands we're both working on projects inspired by korean beauty and if it was one night when christine came over to my apartment in new york and we were drinking wine catching up sheet masking together as we always were and then we realized that sheet masking is also a korean beauty ritual that we were so used to and the fact that we were again respectively were working on projects that were essences sheet masks cushion compacts all of these categories that were coming out of the world of korean beauty and so we had this aha moment and we decided to bring over k beauty products to the states and also the global audience ourselves because we wanted to bridge the gap between the korean manufacturers and the u.s customers in the market and we felt that we were uniquely positioned to do so you know we were bilingual bicultural we had beauty experiences in both markets and we knew as a product developer because you're looking at five ten years down the road and what's the next big thing we knew k beauty and the beauty space would blow up so we saw the opportunity that was crystal clear to us and that's how it started so we started with a e retailer beauty curator business model bringing over importing korean beauty products in 2014 so when you guys first bought the products were you still working for l'oreal or had you already decided to kind to move away from it we'd actually taken the leap by then so okay we just flew to korea at a point where we had quit our jobs okay so literally threw that hat over the fence our parents were thrilled clearly but we flew to korea anyway to get some of the brands that we really loved on board and they were really sold by our our mission because i think they even if we didn't have a site even if the business was still in the very early stages they understood what we were trying to do and give them a voice here um help them with marketing and content creation um and we were able to get some really incredible partners that we've worked for many years afterwards on board so was it like a wholesale type of agreement or how would you go about this or were you guys buying it and then just basically owning it and then putting whatever price point you guys saw fit based on your knowledge of the market yeah exactly it was the wholesale or type of arrangement but because we were doing marketing for them and pr and basically growing their brand to you know the audience that had never heard of them before because the reality was these brands were amazing they had great products but they had no expertise in global markets they had no resources no knowledge so we were not just a retailer we were actually kind of their you know new way into the new markets so you were like a marketplace in some way you were literally introducing them to customers they couldn't touch and bridge that gap yeah exactly okay and then at some point i would imagine that the education of this becomes rather difficult or maybe you saw it early maybe you were like okay the american consumer is there we were having some sort of signals around this is what they're into but i would imagine that's the hardest part now you have the product it's like how do how do i get people to care how did you guys go about that it actually the direction it took was because people were starting to care and we were seeing that so from our careers in the beauty industry we were seeing this just global trend of massive companies looking to korea for the latest innovations the skincare innovations that were coming out of korea were just unprecedented at a such an incredible pace and every time we would go back to korea we would be inundated by requests to bring back things like get me the latest whatever from korea would be like the most frequent requests and our suitcases would be bulging impact to the gills with gifts for our friends but also competitive research and it was interesting to see that shift but also on the consumer side there was a burgeoning interest in k beauty but the only thing was that there were a lot of misconceptions floating around skincare at the time wasn't a very different trajectory in the industry where yes there was growth but people still thought skincare was a chore it was something to get through to get to make up which was the fun transformational thing that was really started to be shared on social media and youtube it was really with the advent of k beauty that a lot of those barriers came down because korean beauty had such it was so ahead in terms of great textures and since reality and fun ingredients that that conversation was just starting to peak on social but at the same time a lot of people thought korean beauty was about the 10 to 15 step routine or a 25 step routine they thought korean beauty meant snail mucin like there were certain things that didn't really capture the holistic picture of the korean beauty practices that we grew up with which is really a philosophy behind skincare and self-care where you carve out this time with products that you really love that are gentle efficacious and you pamper yourself and you take that time for yourself each and every day by listening to your skin and having that dialogue with your skin and that was getting lost in translation so a big part of why we started as marketplace that we did was by curating all these different brands we were not only able to show the best of the best products that we wanted to share with a global customer we were able to do these cross brand content moments talking about trending categories how to get the most out of your routine the fact that korean women do not count their skincare steps no one's winning a gold medal because you're at step 25 right it really is much more fluid and organic than that and that needed to be that story needed to be told so what is someone like the cultural differences between i guess the american market and the korean market that you saw maybe america moving into but just like i think when i think about beauty and the only and i know i'm a guy and so there's like no reason i should know anything about this to some extent but we've had countless companies similar to yours on our podcast and when i you know i acknowledge i know i'm basically like someone who's on some level of research but that's about it but when i think about the american beauty market i think a lot of people instantly think makeup and glamour and this is like this this you have to appeal to a certain look where it's like this is what we want you to look like for reasons that are unknown to me and in the korean market is the pressure the same is it very different is it skincare one makeup two what is what are some of sort of like the biggest differences between these two markets yeah it's a really good question and it is our sort of mission to narrow the gap between the two markets because the consumers are very different i will say the first thing that is really different is the approach to skincare and i do think that the gap is becoming narrower and narrower and things are becoming a little more similar than it used to be five six years ago but when we first started we realized that you know all of the learnings that we've had since our childhood from our mothers and grandmothers and sort of the cultural angle towards beauty in korea was taking a holistic approach so you know for example when you're doing your skincare it's all about kind of checking in with your skin and seeing how you feel on that specific day because the belief is that your skin condition changes every single day so the approach to skincare is very holistic but also customized for each person and a lot of consumers in korea have a lot of products in their medicine cabinet but it doesn't mean that they're using all of those products they're actually having more choices so that each and every day depending on how their skin feels they're giving it that tailored routine versus when we came to you know really understanding the us market you know the first thing we went is go to some stores and and see how we could interact with the beauty advisors in the stores and they would come to you and ask hey what's your skin type and if you think about it there are four different skin types in sort of a big category which is oily you know normal combination skin and dry you know you're not one of the four there's you know you could have dry patches but you could have an oily t-zone or you could have large poor concerns but then you have dry flakes all over your skin you know everyone can have a different sort of skin day right but we realized that it was quite formulaic so when you say you have oily skin then automatically there's a recommendation for oily skin type only then that wouldn't necessarily work when you have you know again dryness that you're seeing across your face right in some days so we realized that was one opportunity in terms of philosophy that we could narrow the gap and educate our customers on our approach and how it works because it's kind of like an extension of your body right when your body feels extra tired or dehydrated you're going to give it what it needs you know supplements water more sleep more rest if you're also going through a mental sort of you know situation your skin will reflect that and in korea there's actually a saying that your skin reflects your mental condition and so that's kind of the difference right and if you think about it all makes sense we've just kind of never really had that approach before and then the second point was how americans especially we here love instant gratification results we want to see things happen quickly so a lot of the claims around packaging for a lot of the efficacious products were all about reduced wrinkles repair you know the damages and some of the language was really strong and you know maybe it's dramatic but a lot of the focus was on repair versus in korea the focus is more on prevention it's a very fundamental difference and that's why from a young age a lot of koreans were educated to hydrate their skin cleanse their skin right after coming home from school making sure that all of the debris and grime are completely gone as you're coming home as soon as I remember my mom still to this day whenever she sees me and you know she sees me from coming home from office or school she would say okay don't even sit on the couch like go wash your face first like it was always just such an instilled thing I couldn't even eat my sandwich like I literally had to wash my face and feel clean first and because of that that's kind of what I do every single day too and take the most time to cleanse the face so I think you know things like that that actually do make a huge difference right in the long run because if you are thinking about the preventative approach and hydrating your skin cleansing it applying spf every day those will protect your skin from further damages down the road so I think now I think a lot of the Americans and the global audience is kind of focusing on prevention a little bit more but there are still you know the gaps to narrow down a little bit more yeah you're totally right here in America we're very much we want to put you in a bucket and so we want to say oh you're thirsty here are your options right it's like seltzer water regular water no water and then and then it makes it easier for the consumer we basically the way I look at it here is like we really give the consumer very little credit it's like of course they can't free think we'll just diagnose them and then we'll give them the solution when it comes to I guess your first step with regards to products what were like the first two three four products that you guys decided to ease into the market or that you saw the opportunity as I guess the most obvious choices to go with so it was around 2017 actually so four years in now in May when we launched our first product within Glow Recipe Skincare which is our in-house line that you can see at Sephora and the genesis of this was really years in the making because we had been seeing over the time a lot of the technologies that we wanted to utilize but they weren't always being used by the brands that we were curating or certain ingredients that we were really passionate about and we felt that there was a way to really bridge once again kind of that going back to that whole theme of like narrowing the gap of these sensoriality elements the efficacy the ingredient stories from Korea but then make it very straightforward and result-driven for the US customer and hence was born out of that the watermelon glow sleeping mask which was our called OG product one of our very first products along with the blueberry bounce gentle cleanser when we launched with just two skus at Sephora we had already worked with the Sephora team because a year before they were the first retailer in the industry to do a Korean beauty animation and no other retailer at the time had been done a window focus just on Korean beauty so we helped you know worked with them to create content and education around that moment and that was already an amazing partnership and they were really in the kitchen with us for this process of launching Glow Recipe Skincare and gave us a lot of encouragement and just really helped usher in the project to where it was when it launched and for us watermelon was also a very meaningful ingredient because our grandmothers used to rub the rind on the skin in the hot summer months in Korea to soothe heat rash and watermelon is a family fruit you finish a whole watermelon with your family around the TV at the end of a long day it's just kind of one of those rituals but then the rind would never go to waste it would always be used on the skin and we wanted to harness the soothing anti-inflammatory effects of watermelon but also pair it with AHAs which are a skin retexturizing ingredient that helps to smooth helps you with glow so really the best of both worlds combined what was interesting at the time is that especially in the mask category there were clay masks like very horrifying but very drying and then there were hydrating masks and that was about it so no one really had taken these two attributes and combined them truly in one formulation in an interesting way and our labs at the time actually told us not possible it's just not going to work so after 1000 iterations which as both of us have been in the industry for a long time it is totally outside of the norm to do that many submissions of a formulation but it took a lot of discussion and a lot of trial and error and work to get to where the watermelon mask landed because we wanted it to be efficacious but gentle enough in case someone wanted to use it daily we wanted it to have a sensorial texture and has this very fun goopy jelly texture that really kind of wraps the skin we wanted to have an instant effect when you wash it off you see that glow and then of course skin benefits over time and that really took a long time to perfect and when we did launch you know every new brand it's a nerve-wracking experience because you just don't know what the reception will be and I think this community of a fans that we built over time with Glow Recipe as a curation site and have come to really trust our recommendations and our educational content were incredibly supportive and the ingredient story the formulation all of this was seen as a true innovation and it actually ended up selling out I think seven or eight times in a very short period of time after launch we could not keep it in stock which is a whole nother story and then there was a wait list of almost 8,000 people right off the bat waiting for this formula and we were blown away humbled by the response and for us it showed that you know trusting our gut along this process really led us down the right path and that our community was actually hungry for more innovation which then led to other products launched within Glow Recipe when your grandmother was doing this stuff with the watermelon is it just literally you taking the inside of a rind are you doing anything to it are you like heating it up we're gonna do this later today that's how I want to make sure we don't look like crazy people yeah yeah no there's nothing complicated I mean I think one of the reasons why it initially even started was we all knew that watermelon was healthy for the skin but our grandmother is being very nimble they didn't want to waste any part from the fruits and so that's it all how it started but there's nothing you know complicated for you to do it's just literally the rind and you just like rub it against your heat rashes and I mean it was like miraculous right because we saw firsthand how it just completely got rid of our rashes heat rashes and in Korea in hot summer months I feel like you know we didn't even have a lot of air conditioners at that time and so having this cooling effect with such a fun sensorial memorable childhood time for us the question I have is in regards to Sephora and so we've had a lot of companies on that have had you know major deals with like Target and some of the other major suppliers and so we're very well versed in how they exist is Sephora similar I mean it sounds like they really did a tremendous they did a lot more is what I'm getting at but when it comes to like the makeup world the beauty world the skincare world is there more of an emphasis on like working with your partners and sort of collaborating in a greater way instead of just saying like okay I bought your product I'm going to put it on our shelf we'll see how it does it's up to you kind of a thing right where it's like if your branding is strong enough it'll sell and if not you know you're going to be discontinued in 90 days what is it like for for you guys with Sephora I mean I will say one of the best decisions that we made as a brand was partnering with Sephora because you know when you're a young indie brand and you don't have a lot of resources that's when you need the platform to leverage their awareness and their audience and their customer base but I think another sort of whole new level that we've seen and witnessed and experienced with Sephora is that when they believe in you when they feel that they're invested in you they will really go out of their way to bring um elevate your your brand's awareness to a whole new level it's not just about saying hey Glorespe is this new brand inspired by k-beauty and Fruit Forward it goes beyond that they would help make one of your products a star product they would help tell the story they would help us also navigate how to work with the Sephora world and their audience you know to the point where they even share some of the top search words on Sephora.com that help us kind of brainstorm yeah how we can think about the future launches yeah or like the the language on the packaging too because that's important and you understand like how customers are kind of evolving so they get involved in you know providing feedback but also looking at very first samples like fresh from the labs samples and they have a team they have or do they do like their own studies with you guys like their own little surveys and testing or is it just like an internal team that is giving you guys real feedback yeah they have merchants who are you know the buyers and because they are brand-facing they have access and information about basically all of the brands right so they have that macro view of you know how the industry and the trends are evolving but then based on that they're also able to look at how your brand can really stand out in their crowded space so they kind of leverage all of that but also customize their approach to us and they have that team that's very specifically focused on that like nurturing and building brands. Did you guys ever think about raising capital or was it just a function of you guys had maybe saved some up and just decided to use that and go for profitability right away? We started our business with our savings so Sarah and I invested 25k each in the beginning and investment was not really a priority for us because our thought was that if we're able to deploy this capital in a strategic way and really grow our business by you know using creative methods like reaching out to editors and tapping into our social media and really trying these different avenues to grow and awareness and revenue of a brand then we would be able to make it work and turn a profit in time to be self-sustaining. Shark Tank at the time wasn't really because of a financial need it was more to I mean we were huge fans of the show still are and we wanted to find a strategic advisor and partner that could help us and that's really what propelled us to go on the show plus just the fact that it's just an incredible platform for entrepreneurs and so a lot of people think that we are funded by Shark Tank post the show but actually we amicably part of ways after accepting a Roberts offer initially on the show and I think it was the best decision for both of us. Did you ever do you keep in touch with them or I know you guys were on QVC and so are those relationships still something that you guys tap into or was it just all right cool you know we've had many companies I think most of the companies that have come on our podcast have gone through Shark Tank I would say a good chunk didn't accept at the end and so during like the DD process really broke up yeah I mean it was an incredible experience we couldn't have asked for more we actually aren't in touch with any of the sharks but I will say it was the life-changing experience for for both of us and the business it happened actually right around December right before the holiday rush which is also incredible timing for us that helps a lot it helped a lot we had to descend on our Brooklyn warehouse and all pack day and night just to meet the demand but overall just having that opportunity too of these incredible business people dissect your business for a full hour for you and ask you pointed questions and thought provoking you know questions was just in itself an incredible experience so you mentioned that you were looking primarily for a financial advisor of sorts by going on the show and from what we know I know that you are never aware of who the shark is going to be or who the sharks are going to be until you get on to the show but I'm sure that you know in your mind must have had some idea of who would be your your top choice or top choices to work with what was that like for you guys going on the show and Laurie yeah and and who would that have been I mean Robert's in cyber security the alignment there is non-existent in my view yeah I mean no one's ever asked this question so this is really interesting if you ever have seen our episode you'll actually see that it's very obvious because we were we both were trying to make eye contact with mark Cuban and we kept asking him again if he's interested I did see that you were like oh we want to see and wait what mark has in store I want to say looking back you know we made it almost too obvious but you know if you watch you can't deny that he was initially our top choice you never know to your point you never are aligned or anything you don't even know how like which sharks specifically are even going to sit on that specific day because there's multiple and they take turns and obviously we admire and respect all of the sharks but we were hoping to have you know potentially some female sharks as well because they might understand beauty a little bit more and then of course we were huge fans of mark Cuban so that's how we went in and we ended up shaking hands with Robert and he was fantastic he was so passionate about our company so in that vein I know that you got offers from I believe it was Mr. Wonderful, Barbara and Robert I'm pretty sure that it was like Barbara and Mr. Wonderful offered you somewhere in the range of what you were asking for but at around 45 to 50 percent equity and then I think Robert came in at around 30 or something like that in your head what were you willing to go to what were like the limits of what you were a lot of equity yeah that's a lot of equity what were you kind of in your head like were you willing to go to because I think you guys settled on like what 25% like was that like within your range or was that the edge of your range it was on the higher side yeah didn't we go in thinking like our initial offer was like 10% of the company or something yeah it was there was a big gap you guys look at yourself just go yes like like in when it's happening in real time you have to agree as co-founders and so so we had a little conversation in Korean because of it in front of the sharks and our Korean friends called us afterwards when it aired they thought it was hilarious because we were just literally having a live discussion in front of the sharks and then Kevin or Mr. Wonderful was actually in the background this got edited out like what are they saying I believe they're talking right now I'm surprised the editors didn't add subtitles to it for the broadcast I know I know I mean it was pretty like basic things we're saying like are you okay with that no like okay yes it was simple things but all in Korean because we wanted to align before we you know responded at all you're not given any time though I mean you're kind of put on the spot and we also were told from numerous resources that if you if you don't take the deal also you might not be on air there were a lot of this complicated layers for us to think about in that short span of time and obviously we were excited we loved Robert and we wanted to make it work so it was a big gap but we were compromising if you're not subscribed can you go ahead and do that right now before we get on with the video helps us out tremendously that's all we ask and we're back you said that you guys walked away amicably what was it specifically though that you guys couldn't come to terms with that kind of led you both to walk away the percentage is what it seems like to me that's a massive amount of the company to give away so the percentage was one part of it but I mean we had shook hands on that so I think to some degree made a little piece with it it's more I think at the time Robert was very busy with different projects different investments he was going on dancing with the stars and there are all these other things that were happening in the back and I think throughout our conversations once again our focus was really on having someone be very involved with guiding us with strategy and advice and I think those elements weren't 100 aligned but ultimately once again it was incredibly amicable they are incredible partners and they would have been incredible partners regardless but for our business at the time it just wasn't the right decision is he well versed in skincare am I missing something like is he does he have a portfolio of companies in this world or was this just he liked you no but he's very well versed in consumer goods and DTC and I think those elements are very transferable regardless especially for a digitally native brand so there would have been some interesting synergies there so since you didn't end up with Robert as sort of a financial advisor was there someone else that you did eventually find to kind of fulfill that role outside of Shark Tank right in general yeah um we've had numerous sort of you know inquiries and inbound emails and requests for meetings with investors and I think at the end of the day for us what's most important is to find the best strategic partner and we have been profitable since month three of our business and we broke even very soon so with all of the product development that we're doing it's you know fueled by the profit that we're actually making from our business so we're not you know necessarily in a rush obviously if it's the right partner that can help accelerate our growth then we would be very happy to partner with that person but we're you know having conversations right now does Sephora or any of these companies have like an incubator of some kind where they have like a fund or a portfolio associated with their brand that kind of primes companies like yours for acquisition or even just for launch does that exist I don't know if it's really with that particular end game in mind but I think just Sephora a great partnership with them helps to just elevate your awareness and you're standing in the market and so that just naturally then segues to whatever exits brands are each planning for their own companies once again we can't say enough good things about the partnership with them and they've just been really great friends advisors and have guided us through this process so it's been really great partnership if you could snap your fingers like just overnight and completely redesign the way America looks at skincare what like very obvious things would you guys do that's your questions are really deep and interesting I'm having fun that's because we're entrepreneurs we're not like like we we've been there like I've had a company I see Robert at the gym you know it's like we're here we're in the world oh interesting yeah so I'll let him know that you guys bashed him on our podcast he'll be fine with that only so I will say maybe this is getting a little deep as well but welcome yeah yeah this is the whole point of the podcast okay this is the whole point yeah this is so there are a lot of skin enthusiasts right now in America I mean like influencers I will say it's a mix of influencers and customers just communities and people are you know becoming more and more interested and obsessed even with skincare especially during the pandemic skincare became the fastest growing category understandably right because you're always trying to focus on self-care and what's you know good and healthy for yourself and skincare became one of those elements which we're actually very grateful for but I think because of that there's been a lot of content and learning and education about the deep dives into skincare ingredients the formulations the details that we never really talked about in the past and that's really the power of social media and I think because of that there's also sometimes misconceptions about certain things and you know as brand developers and product developers we always say each blend of the formula is unique right like we can't say our vitamin c treatment is the same as another brand's vitamin c treatment because each formula has its own level of percentages you know different ingredients and it can have overlapping ingredients but I think a lot of people are now looking for things that are kind of on the surface for example 20 vitamin c you know if you're if you have 10 percent then it's perceived as weak for example yeah it's like the spf conundrum it's like all just yeah exactly yeah yeah or like other acids right like a ha bha pha like the percentages of them are so important but then in our view obviously they are but that's not the the full story right there's context to everything and each blend once again there's a very deliberate reason as to why a certain ingredient is a x percent and then it's also in you know conjunction with some of the other ingredients that could actually help amplify that specific ingredient so if you don't look at the full picture and judge just by what the marketing claims are then I think it could you know kind of be derailed and to some severity so I think that's the one thing that I will say education it's we also as a brand yeah education and just kind of not judging by what's on the surface or just the marketing claims and as a brand we want to speak more about that contextual skincare and it's a it's a new approach and it's going to be sort of a long you know journey for us to educate on this because it's you know to your point earlier we like things but get it and categorize and you know written with percentages and numbers but that's not really everything and again this is a Korean beauty approach to like looking at things more holistically and looking at you know things in a harmonious way as opposed to singling out each ingredient of the formula so that's something that I would love to break that barrier and educate and Christine similar if you could just change one thing overnight about the whole American market I mean I have to say it's very similar to Sarah like that approach is so important but that was a perfect answer so my answer on top of that would be just brands taking responsibility around language and visuals and what we mean by that is recently we started talking about not using words like porous or flawless anymore because you need your pores no one is porous you shouldn't be porous god help you if you are and it is a really important function understand the need to want to keep them clean and clear right and optimum health which is totally fine but if we keep saying these words in a way we're reinforcing these unattainable standards for people in an age where people are already inundated by social media and imagery and filters and all of these things that are not necessarily real life and so the topic of real skin is really near and dear to us and by committing not to use those words earlier on this year we recently actually expanded on that by adding in words like ageless anti-aging because aging is not something you need to fight against it's just a process and it's natural but it's more once again keeping your skin in optimal health and we're not using the word perfection or perfect skin anymore either and it will take time and we by far are not perfect either we have still room to improve always but by not retouching our visuals by using diverse imagery and diverse meaning not only ethnicities but skin tones and textures and types and acne prone skin and rosacea prone skin and just showing imagery of real skin and upholding standards around skin friendly language we think is a small step in the right direction and our hope is that some of the brands in the industry will also take on some of this too because I think it's really a collaborative effort have you seen any traction in in that area with other brands adopting or unadopting the use of these terms like ageless or perfect skin or poorless rather than brands we saw a lore magazine also make a huge statement actually it's one of the most impressive things that they've done is I think there was a magazine cover that came out sometime a couple actually a couple years ago saying the end of anti-aging and it became such a viral visceral moment for everybody and it was just such a huge statement and so you know that was also part of the inspiration too and we we hope that from publications like that kind of pushing the same language over and over again a lot of other brands will do the same it also to some extent maybe gets the competitive landscape to be kind of binary right it's either you're moving in a direction or you're literally going against it right and so it almost I don't love it but it's like it's hard in that way where it's like it's you're the good guy in the fight and sometimes that guy doesn't win right away and you have to deal with it's like a movie it's like a marvel comic the good guy has to go through a process where the competitors come and sling in all these words it's flawless and then you're like no it's not and then as long as you know our values align with our audience because you know I think we're such a community first company like a lot of the decision making is coming from our community members so these values actually were an outcome of this interaction and engagement that we've had with our community this is what they want to hear you know they scroll down their instagram tick tock all the time and they see we touched photoshopped you know images and it makes them feel really insecure and it's becoming a problem to be honest right and I think everyone is realizing that and so you know there's already a lot of talks and movement and influencers being passionate about this specific topic so I think with our community we're a hundred percent aligned this is the right direction and I do think that in the long term a lot of brands will follow suit too I think too I mean I like the thing that you said about the Korean culture around you wear your sort of your health on your face to some extent it's like sometimes you just need a good night's sleep and I think it can be that simple and that makes it approachable right like that makes it okay it's like stop doing the all-nighters you look you look crazy go to bed the the issue is not your skin it's sleep um we're gonna so our podcast is sponsored by cat footwear and in that we ask a question around like one of the moments maybe a very pivotal moment of your at any point of your company so whether it was quitting your job maybe it was on Shark Tank or maybe it was developing products and there were some hardships and so when was a moment in your company's life that you guys had to really take a step back and do more so I think one really difficult moment for us was when we transitioned from our curations to Glow Recipe skincare because our audience has become very used to us you know recommending different brands and cross categories and creating content around that and it's also how we started and we were still very passionate about the idea of it but as a small but growing team there's only so much you can do in a day and our community also clearly clearly wanted more from Glow Recipe skincare and they were hungry for it so how do we best serve that need as well was an ongoing topic and ultimately we phased out fully of our curations I think back in 2019 so it's almost been two years already but at the time it wasn't an easy decision because that's how we had started the business and so I'm glad we did it the way we did slowly we took our time we gave ample notice to our brand partners we actually had a page up on our site for a really long time to show which U.S. retailers you could buy these brands from because we had connected them with a lot of U.S. partners during our partnership and so customers could continue to buy some of their beloved products elsewhere if needed and that page was up for years and because we wanted to make sure we were doing due justice to that transition as well and of course there were some disappointed customers in the beginning now ultimately it was really the right decision especially some of those amazing innovations that we really were able to focus laser focus on afterwards but throughout the process though it wasn't as easy and or seamless as it seems from the outside as you guys think about sort of the future of your company where at some point you view the Korean market as the leader as the clear let's say you saw the signals and you recognize this is a direction to follow is there another country another culture that you guys see as the emerging leader maybe potentially they're doing interesting things and you're kind of like okay we need to keep an eye on these interesting sciences maybe it's maybe it's happening in a lab maybe it's happening naturally but is there something that's on your radar with regards to the future of skincare yeah you know I think more and more and we're very lucky actually that we are doing our business during this era because more and more there's interest in different cultures appreciation of different you know heritage and backgrounds which is why we're able to leverage everything that we've learned again from a young age from the Korean skincare the world of skincare to the global audience and that's also what makes us more authentic too which is what the audience wants to see in here so I think there's going to be even more sort of hunger to learn about different cultural rituals and aspects of beauty and we actually have encountered amazing African beauty ritual you know inspired companies and so I think we'll see more from different countries but recently we've seen you know Africa being kind of that sort of emerging beauty ritual background and we're very excited to see more of that and you know we learned a lot more recently when we had this mentoring program and the whole initiative because we're so passionate about mentorship and female empowerment we had mentored three small businesses and one of them was a black female owned company that was completely made with you know African rituals and ingredients from Ghana where she was not only sourcing ingredients from that country but she was actually helping the community to you know with labor and giving them jobs so there's just deeper meaning in terms of helping and giving back to where you're coming from and I think we'll see more of that down the road I love that how big is your team today right now we're almost at 40 people we have been hiring a lot recently just because our needs are continuing to grow as a team we just wrapped with iFund women the CEO of that company which is a pretty cool platform and they're setting up a lot of resources for women you know one of the things that that I think women struggle with and I can say this because we've interviewed like probably half of our guests have been female founders and since you guys are obviously women I want to ask this question because I know it's top of mind to so many you're both female I don't know if you have families I imagine you do I don't know if you have kids I imagine you do what is this what is some of the most important learnings you guys have had as female founders as it relates to maybe being on Shark Tank having kids making sure you have to set up the system right making sure you have the right employees making sure you have the right team in order to get your company to the next level while at the same time being a mother what are some of the things that like you guys have learned the hard way the easy way along your personal journeys so I don't have a child Christine does but you know when I see Christine balancing everything raising her daughter and you know running this business it's really admirable and I have that same feeling towards any moms out there that are killing it and working hard and so I think you know as females it's more about sort of understanding that there's a lot of you know complications and hard work behind the scenes and ultimately uplifting each other I think is the biggest lesson and and things that we want to work on more and I think it applies to every community but I think for female entrepreneurs especially there's a community actually of female founders and we get together once in a while talk about our real life issues concerns challenges and we have that mutual understanding of being an entrepreneur and having families so I think even those you know little moments when you can share the pains but also encourage each other and celebrate each other's successes those are really what go a long way and I think we could do more of that good praise for you Christine who does to you yeah a mother and a superstar yeah I think everyone is ultimately balancing something and something has to give right so there is no perfection it's just kind of like our skincare philosophy you take it a day at a time and do your best that's the most we can do I love it well listen tell everyone where they can find you guys where they can support your company where they can support both of you individually yeah so you can find us at glow recipe on instagram and then we are at Sephora as well as glow recipe.com and you can find actually Sarah and myself on IG as well so Sarah under bar glow and Christine under bar glow smart handles that makes it super easy and consistent thank you guys for coming on I appreciate your time yeah this is a real pleasure having you on thank you for having us. Nice meeting you guys