 Hello everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Anabaptist Perspectives. I'm here with Dean Taylor. We're in Boston, Massachusetts, in Sattler College. Actually, this is your office, which we kind of commandeered while we're filming these. Overlooking the city here. There's a couple of things I want to discuss with you today. And I know one you've been pretty passionate about is Anabaptism and Islam and how that all works together. We've got this this big refugee crisis happening I know you were pretty involved in that. Can you tell us some of your experience with working with refugees that are fleeing the Middle East and coming into Europe? I'd be glad to. I'm really in love with what's happening in Europe with the refugees coming over and you know if we think about it this is the big thing that's happening in this generation. For me, you know, one of the big things was when the Berlin Wall came down and that kind of so much flowed from that with the, you know, communist block, you know, Russia, you know, and all the different things that were happening. This is the big thing now, and I really think that with the Arab Spring in 2011 and and what has happened since then is something that every Christian should really be excited about. So matter of fact, if you ever looked at the 1040 window, you know, the area where it's the hardest to reach, the 1040 window, and if you look at the area that was affected by the Arab Spring, I have a slide that I usually do where I'll I'll superimpose the 1040 window over the Arab Spring and it's like the same area. And if you look at that, you think, okay, it's like God is telling us, I've been wanting you to go evangelize these people for centuries and we haven't and it's he's like he's giving it now to us. He's bringing them to us. To respond to that is really something I think we should do. When I first heard about it, I'll be totally honest, you know, I've been following, you know, Christophus and he was a pioneer for Muslim ministries years ago, you know, 10, 15 years ago, maybe at least or 10 years at least. And you know, I've been following that and seeing how people work with it. When I first heard of what was happening in Europe, I was I was skeptical. I was thinking there's no way. There's that many people coming to Christ and there's just no way. And and when I had a chance to go over there and see it, it was just amazing. I mean, these are real testimonies of people who have come out from very restrictive communities and they've come from some just say a modern Islamic background, some very conservative Islamic backgrounds, but all of them have this incredible testimony and they love Jesus and it's been amazing. And so as I was there and I heard these testimonies, I was just wow, this is this is real. And I quickly fell in love as a lot of people do. So one of the things then and you're already touching on this some but what are ways that Christians and particularly Anabaptists misunderstand Islam and this crisis? Like, how are we viewing it wrong? You know, there's several different levels and I was I was one of them, you know, and like there's just we have a lot of ignorance about the Middle East and everything. And like, for instance, just some basics like that there's difference between the Persian group of people and the Arab groups of people and that those speak two different languages with Farsi and Arabic and, you know, and those also come with different cultural differences. I mean, getting to know that our Bible study with the Persians and our Bible study with the Arabs is very different. There's some political things recognizing how the West, I don't know, in a lot of ways caused or at least had a part to play in a lot of the chaos of the Middle East and even the drawing of the map of what the Middle East looks like and our place in that it's good for us to understand that you hear a lot of things about all they're tearing each other up and all that. Well, we take a little fault in that, you know, with the way the West has affected that whole area. But perhaps the biggest thing is to not look at it with kingdom eyes. I mean, there's no doubt about it. I that the agenda, the doctrine that you read in the Quran and these different things is a dangerous doctrine to Christianity. I mean, I don't think they themselves would apologize for that. It's I can understand the caution that the West would have about this. I and I don't I don't try to sugarcoat that. But there is such an opportunity. Winston Churchill said, never let a crisis, never let a good crisis go to waste. And so here we have a crisis that we can really take advantage of. And it's and it's it's really, yeah. So I think that understanding that and looking at it from the eyes of Jesus Christ helps with some a lot of misunderstanding. Reorienting our perspective, reorienting our perspective entirely of saying, yes, there may be risks. Yes, I can. We we're not going to change that. I don't think it's our place to try to change that. Our place is to take the words of Jesus and see them coming to us and to welcome them and to share the gospel with them. Let's let's take what you're saying there and turn it a little more practical. How can Anabaptist people effectively work with Muslims and both in the current situation? And I don't know if you have any historical examples of times in the past that that's happened, but yeah, give us give us some ways to actually walk through this. OK, which one I want to dive into first, because it's excellent. The biggest thing that that you notice when you're there, although I will say the testimonies are genuine. I mean, they're real. You you you hear these beautiful stories. Many of them have a dream or something they that got them thinking about Christ and they come and it's just beautiful. The thing, though, also is that you see it's very shallow, very shallow. And so you imagine them coming like with Lesvos where I was, you know, they're coming there, what's going to become of them? And you just can almost guess it's not going to look very good. And so the the the need there to bring in solid churches. And what I think the Anabaptists have to offer is the idea of a church as a brotherhood and and bring discipleship and bring and that's what they need. And Europe is not a bad place to live. You know, Greece, it's I mean, there's worse places you could be missionaries. And when I think of business opportunities and different things, I really think that this is an area that we can take advantage of. And it's a very big need if we could get at least a few churches in each of the European countries so that as the refugees keep going and finally make it to those places, if they were really serious and seek first the kingdom, they could at least make it to some of these congregations. So I'd really love to see that you ask about history. Actually, the the Anabaptists were one of the first people into Muslim ministry is is is even in the 1890s, one of the very first missions that the Anabaptists were involved with. The Mennonites got involved with the work in Indonesia. And it's an amazing work of how they came there to a very culturally conservative Muslim conservative area and began to share the gospel there. One interesting thing they did, several of the Russian Mennonites were involved with that. This is when a lot of the Russian Mennonites were coming and getting very zealous for the Lord and became very zealous for missions. And as they did that and also with the different Dutch Mennonites, they joined with the Dutch Mennonites. And as they went there, they found like in Indonesia, getting someone who converted from from Islam and then leaving their community was very difficult. And so what do you do with this? Well, what was going on even in a secular level was to build these agricultural communities. And so and so they actually were able to to find agricultural communities and form areas that that were like discipling communities for these early Muslims in Indonesia. It was incredible. And and as this grew and and grew, they did very good up until the Japanese invasion previous to World War Two, which kind of wiped out a lot of the area. And as some martyrs that happened during that time. But but yeah. So from the very beginning, also at the end of World War Two, the Mennonites were involved in coming into Iraq and Iran, Egypt and doing different relief areas there. And it's it's been in our history, but it's it's far back there. It needs to be in our history. We need to we need to go back to that time and see what happened and try to bring it today. Yeah, amen and be inspired by it. Yeah, there's this incredible sermon written by a son of the original missionary in Indonesia. And it's called Jesus Fire. I'll have to get it for you. You can post it. We should put a link to that. I'll put a link to it. I'll give you the post. There's an old Mennonite Quarterly Review that link that that translate this from German to the English. He said the Jesus Fire, he says, you know, you start this fire and then sparks of this fire go out and start another fire and sparks come out. It's an incredible mission sermon. And he was trying to encourage in the early 1900s, late 1800s, more people to get involved with this work. So now we're looking at, OK, how we can interact. But but can you walk us through how our Anabaptists specifically equipped in a way to make us they give us certain advantages when I come to relating to Muslims versus somebody else. You know, when I was over there, I talked to like Eric and Kate, Klein, Sausser and other ones that have been there, you know, for a long time. They tell me that there's been over two thousand Mennonites and Beachy Amish young people that have come way well over two thousand. Two thousand is a modest number have come through there. How young people to just this one ministry in Greece. You know what you find is that as you is just the ones that I interacted with, a lot of the young people are disillusioned. A lot of the young people are frustrated. What scares me, I'm getting to the question, what scares me is that they're giving up. They seem to be giving up some of the very values that are giving them an advantage in this work. So, for instance, our values of separation from the world. This is very normal to their way of thinking of of seeing themselves as a a theocracy of people of God, you know, apart from the whole rest of the world. The idea of modesty, they very much appreciate that, you know, in the in Camp Moria, even though some of these young men were very vulgar in their their life, when they would see the Mennonite girls there in in the camp, they would all remark on it like that's the kind of woman that I would like to marry and that's the kind of they all even the young kind of lewd ones that you would you would run into have a real value for seeing that the family values. You know, I was talking to Chris Tolce was on this, excuse me. And he talks about how what he does locally there in Lancaster County and how, you know, one of the his biggest things is when they see a big family and in this godly order of a grandfather and a father. And, you know, this is gone in American society. It's a huge plus and it's something we don't want to lose. And there's one other thing that may that may be surprising. And that is our values on nonresistance. I find at least what's come to, you know, better from the actually there. But from those who've actually come, they are sick of war. They're sick of hearing about it. Their whole life has been victims of it. And when they hear God doesn't want this, there is a better way that this way. I remember talking to a a was a older man and he was traveling with a student, a young lady, and they had just come over to Lesvos from Syria. My book was just recently translated in Arabic. And so I was using it to, you know, talk about my life a little bit and about about the Jesus way of peace. This older 50 year old man just started crying. And then through the translator, I heard him say to her, I told you there was a better way. I told you, and he was showing me some poems. It was hard to understand, but some poems are something that he had written, like wanting these these peace ideas, but frustrated with his model and frustrated with what he saw. Coming right out and saying, Jesus has a better way is very. It gives us a strong, a strong connection. As a matter of fact, in one of our Persian Bible studies, we had like 40 people from Islam that were being they were converting to Christ. And we were going through the Sermon on the Mount. And as we went through the whole Sermon on the Mount, my translator, I love him. He looked at me right when we finished. He said, you know, that sounds like heaven on earth. And I said, amen. That's exactly what it's supposed to be. Heaven on earth and that the kingdom of God should be like little islands of that. So those are things, you know, the head covering is a big thing that they very much appreciate. I remember I was getting a haircut and my wife was with me. And in the camp, you know, and I had safe, you know, they're translating. He was saying all this stuff. And it was funny because he was catching my ear on fire with all the way they do haircuts and all that, which is a funny thing. But but then afterwards, he he told, safe told me, you know, you know, he was asking questions about your wife. He was like, I've never seen a woman dressed American Christian woman dressed like that. And so these values, which are giving us the advantage in this ministry, it's so sad when you see young people about to throw all these away when this is the very thing that's going to give them the advantage. That that is so interesting. And maybe maybe it's a lack of awareness of how powerful these things are. Do you think maybe that's what it is? It is. And I think they come already with a frustration. And and so they're trying to think, oh, we're finally breaking out of our our controlling settings. And now we're here and they see some of these other, you know, denominations, organizations, and they think, oh, I'll try to be this way and that. And yeah, even the holiness of worship, I remember I got a letter sent to me from a converted man, and he was talking about how he is very offended by services that are just trying. He was talking about how girls were dancing around and people were stepping on the Bible and this and that and and how he how much he wants a reverent worship service. And I thought, wow, I, you know, it was a rebuke to us for. And so it was like, wow, you know, here again, something you think you're, you know, we wouldn't have that music back in Langster County. And now here we think in your and it's the very thing is, you know, offensive. So yeah, it's a lot of those things are are advantages that I think we have in this work. So I say that because I hope that it encourages, you know, these the Anabaptist people to get involved with it. Well, yeah. And that's and that's the next question I would have is, is how can we learn to respond? Not from fear, but from love. It seems like we often react out of fear instead of actually what is Jesus actually want? And then to kind of top that off then as well, like what are some practical things that our audience that's watching and listening? What's something practical they can do right now? That's a great question. You know, locally, you know, if you're getting to areas where refugees come in, seems to be one of the best places like here in Boston. We haven't done as well yet with the Islamic population, but we're doing very well with the Buddhist population with the Chinese. We do teaching English as a second language. And so with that, it gets us into places where they don't have developed communities yet. And so that's an area that these people need a friend. These people need someone to walk through life with. And so finding those areas. I know, again, talking about Chris, he's he's done that in Lancaster County and trying to reach the refugee areas. So I would say find your city's refugee areas and get involved with that. Teaching English as a second language is a great thing to get into areas that, you know, people are not going to be from America. A little more developed, you know, I would encourage, you know, short term missions and different things. I know Kingdom Channels does some some really great things. And so getting involved with how you can with those things, you start to get a burden. And here's the here's the change. When you get from a theology or a missiology or whatever to you replace it with people's names. And I know you know what I'm talking about. And no longer is it just a an abstract idea, but they become friends and they become people that they stole your heart. And and then it makes even your little effort seem like something that's worth it because they're your friends. And so getting involved in those and getting to know people and making friends like that, both locally and abroad, I think is great. But then on top of that, I really think there's I really think there's no reason why we should not be getting involved with church planting and business starting in Europe. Just today, speaking with the organization and working with Christian Aid Ministry and, you know, we were talking about visas and the frustration we're having with visas. And we have tried lots of things. And I know other organizations have too. And it's coming down to it. We need to start businesses. And so Europe, again, is not the worst place to live. I mean, you know, Lesbosite Greece is like, you know, people vacation there. But with Kingdom Eyes, there's this workforce. They know that their jobs. I mean, these guys, the Greeks aren't getting jobs. These these refugees are certainly not going to be getting jobs. We need to create structures. And I know groups like the Salt Program and things like that are our experience in trying to develop that. We really need, I think, to increase that. And I think one of the things that we have proven we can do through history is good entrepreneurs. I mean, just for an example, I remember when I drove down to Guatemala, Mexico, and there's a Mennonites went down there in 1912. And as you go, it's desert for hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours. All of a sudden, it's green, corn, shops, stores, what happened? Oh, it's the Mennonites. We can do this again and and even be a profitable business. I'm OK with that with Kingdom Eyes. And so I think that's going to be the only way we're going to get our visas. And I would encourage to do that. We need churches that can disciple and be in these areas. And I think it can be a lot of fun. I think it can be a great place for a young family to live and it can do a really great work. Yeah, that's that's really inspiring. It's reorienting us from saying, oh, wow, look at this horrible thing happening. They're saying, oh, hey, we can go get involved. I like that. And there's a market. I mean, there's even a growing place. You know, it's I think we proved that we can do this. It's time to do it here in Europe. Yeah. And I know you're involved with the Middle East and different opportunities are popping up there that we need to get that entrepreneur with Kingdom Eyes, you know, going and how we can affect these areas. That's the last question I had on the list. But if you had it, is there anything else you'd like to add? So, yeah, I just the biggest thing, I guess, we really need to look at this as an incredible opportunity. Fall in love with it. I praise the Lord for missions and churches that work year after year after year after year, trying to get fruit. I mean, in America, you know, how many times have I read the scripture? You know, look to the field. It's white for harvest already. But then ask the Lord, I mean, I don't know. I'm preaching on the corner. I, you know, I don't know. This this place is like that. Brother, the only thing stopping us from the size of our church in Greece is the amount of time we would have to disciple them and bring them in. That is it. The fruit is more low hanging fruit. It didn't take any, you know, special, incredible evangelism model. The word of God has all the answers for it. It's low hanging fruit and it's so fun and so rewarding to be a part of a work that's like that. So I would really encourage people to get involved with this work. You'll fall in love quickly. That's amazing. Thank you for taking the time and also for the service you've put in and being involved and help me make it happen. I'll be there in a week and a half back in Greece. So looking forward to it. Wow, that's awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you, brother. Yeah.