 Welcome to Pukipondas, the podcast where I explore big questions with brilliant people. Today's question is, how can we help more men to speak up about rape? And I'm in conversation with Ross McGill. Hi Pukie, hello everyone, my name is Ross McGill. I've been a teacher in London for 25 to 30 years, I've lost count. That's evolved into a blogger, stroke author and I'm currently conducting my doctoral research at the University of Cambridge. And I'm not talking to you about any of the things that you are mostly known for. So you're like one of the most influential teachers in the world, but I want to talk to you today about how we can help men to speak up more about rape. And you really bravely blogged about this some time ago now and I've been wanting to talk to you about it for a while. I was thinking about it a couple of days ago because I think it was two summers ago that I blogged about it openly and said I was a survivor of sexual abuse. And I've gone through, well, I was actually going through the process with the police at the time, but I guess part of me coming out publicly was part of my own therapy. To be able to talk to people, you know, being able to talk to you like this openly now was something I would never have done two years ago and it happened to me in our 13s. That's 35 years ago, 34, 35 years ago. And it's pretty something that I'd never spoke to about anybody about other than, you know, best mates, girlfriends, what, you know, my wife type stuff. And it was at that point I told my mother for the first time as well. So, yeah, two years ago, I think when I came out. And what inspired you to, you know, kind of dig into it a couple of years ago? I mean, it's been something that's been part of your life for a very, very, very long time before you kind of came out about it. I think I know always as a teacher, having the six-week summer period gave me downtime cognitively just to relax, to sleep, to eat, to see friends. But then when the days became blurred and you didn't know what day it was, you know, when you have such a long week break, you really start to switch off and relax. And it was at that point I often explored this demon. And it wouldn't be other than just thinking about it or squashing it back under the carpet. But more importantly, in the last few years, we've had a lot more stories in the press. So, I think specifically Chelsea Football Club, Barry Bonnell rings and the name rings a bell. And a few others, and I think working freelance now, I'll have a lot more time on trains to listen to the radio as I go to different jobs. So, I've had a lot more thinking and reflection time more than I've ever had in my entire adult life. So, it's given me a lot more space to think about me professionally and personally. So, I think those are the two biggest factors, plus all the news stories. And as the more people talked about it and the more men specifically or footballers who'd gone to clubs as kids and have been under the influence of coaches, I guess it gave me more reassurance that it wasn't just me, that it was okay to talk about it, those types of things. So, that process was probably going on for about five or six years beforehand. And I knew I was getting close to a point where I was going to start to talk about it publicly. Yeah. And do you think it's like completely leading question, harder for men to talk about this than women? Because this is sadly an experience that you and I share, but I think my take on it would be it's easier for me to stand up and say, you know, this happens to me. Well, I think it's hard for everyone, full stop. But the research I've at least I'm picked for my area is that men don't speak up. You know, I remember when I disclosed online what one thing I hadn't anticipated was the flurry of responses privately with other people disclosing to me. And, you know, I wasn't ready for that. You know, and I wanted to come to my aid quickly and say sign, you know, don't try to solve theirs. Just sign posting to people and, you know, be obese. I guess a signal or a beacon that you can do it and use my example. So, you know, I was for my my issue. I was I got a lot of responses from men. I think one man stood out probably 50, 60 years. He's kept silent. He just wanted to say it to me privately. And then I got I think I've got the recording somewhere on my laptop. A lady got in touch. She was in tears on a voicemail and said, my son's just spoken to me. He's he's read your blog. He's a teacher, etc. He's just disclosed and it was her husband, his father. So, you know, it was a wide range of stuff that I got, you know, and women getting in touch with me with horrific stories in comparison to my experiences. So, yeah, that was one thing I hadn't prepared for the flurry of responses. But you can see how the ripple effect of speaking out gives other people confidence to either speak out themselves or to know that whether they're not ready to deal with it, that there are other people who've gone through the same scenarios. So when you did decide to speak out about it, then you weren't I kind of assumed you partly did it knowing that that would give people the space to talk their own truth and, you know, set set that path. Yeah, I don't I'd so many things go on in my head. Could be and I think when I try to rewind now, I think when I blogged, I'd already gone through my telling my family. I kind of had a little roadmap in my head of consequences, but actually I had so many occasions where I was going to speak to my mother about it for the last 10 years, you know, a little walk around the park together, but I never did it. And there's a funny. It was a bit of a funny situation that actually made me do it. But when I spoke to my mother, then I told my three brothers and extended family and then I blogged about it and I think I've shared it a couple of times on my personal and professional Twitter and on the blog. And I'm not and I'm actually on my personal Facebook, but I've never really gone back to it and I might tweet it out. Haven't had just spoken to you today about it as a kind of annual thing, but I know it's an important signpost of people, but I hadn't really thought about everyone else. I was too busy dealing with myself. Yeah. Um, but the same time I was going through the police investigation process. So I had to be quite cautious. I guess of saying too much. Um, what I could say what I couldn't say. I wasn't, I wasn't really sure. So I didn't want to put the investigation at risk. I suppose not really known what would happen because that investigation concluded now. Yeah. Yeah, it included it probably took. Um, three of, in fact, I can't remember anything between three months to a year. I think the process took. Yeah. And what did your mum say? It sounds like it was really tough to it was I'd wildly overestimated it just like, you know, most loving mums would do. You should have told me years ago. We would have dealt with it there and then give me a cut all that type of stuff. And then I think once that shot was over over the next day, week, month or so, it was more kind of digging deep questions. And when I said I was going to the police, my mother did what she could to help and dig out any bits of evidence. Um, but yeah, the actual, so I'd gone, I think my niece was having a christening for her young son. So I'd gone up, I'd traveled from London up north where I am now to attend the christening party. Um, and I was staying with my brother and sister-in-law and I'd parked my car on their street overnight and my car was stolen. I remember your car being stolen overnight. So because I woke up frustrated, not only that all our belongings inside the car was gone for a weekend and my son's trumpet and things like that and the car was stolen that I'd also gone to up for the christening to pull my mum for one side because I was at this process with the police and stuff where it was brewing and I needed to say something soon because I also thought in a few months I might want to write about it as part of therapy. Um, so the car being stolen really affected the morning for me personally on the day of the family event. And I think I was about 20, 30 minutes away from where the event was from where we were staying. So long story short, I had to get a higher car but the higher car would only deliver to where my mother lived coincidentally to where I was located for this for where we were staying for the weekend. So I had to get a taxi from Halifax to Rochdale and I found myself and my mum for an hour or so while I was waiting for the car to the what's it called the higher car to be shipped to us and with the frustration of the car and stolen I thought right now is it and I said, mom, I've got to tell you something and I spat it out and that was it and yeah, a huge weight off my shoulders. You know, I should have told my mum one 30 years ago. Why didn't you? Um, well, I was only 13. So I had I wouldn't I wasn't a very confident child. I moved to seven states go different schools in my family and I was always a shy kid anyway, but I think moving probably made me shy than normal. Um, I wouldn't say I was a very articulate soul and I guess like anything, you don't know if it's right or wrong. You then question was it yourself? Did you lead the person on and then after the events gone, I guess you go a bit numb to it and you know, everyone's different. Every scenario family is different. Although we were a loving family and you know, very warm and given and loving stuff. I just don't know if I had the capacity to express it. I think and I then didn't really deal with it until my first relationship when I was 18 or 19 and then, you know, without getting too embarrassed and started to have one or two problems in the bedroom and started to identify what might have been the reasons for that. And I think I would have associated the the abuse to it. So then, you know, relation key relationships, close relationships. I'd kind of disclose, but by then it had happened and I still wasn't aware of what I should have done and no one ever ever said, why did you say XYZ or that I can remember? So I guess it just became part of what happened in my life and that was it and moving to different places. I guess I was never really reminded of the location or the event itself. And I remember just two or three times of my adult life going back to this particular location just through one holiday to work and whatever else and thinking, oh, that happened. I need to deal with that. And as you get a bit more wiser, you know, guessing my 30s and 40s, right? That was wrong. I need to let the police know. Um, but in my twenties, I probably blurred it out as I was trying to identify myself as who I am as a young man growing up, breaking away from family, going to university, that type of stuff that we all do. Then in my 30s, I guess I probably blurred it out through alcohol, you know, drinking things like that. And I guess now having my family, my own child and, you know, home and stuff like that being a bit more stable, settled, you know, aware of our mental health, seen everyone else talk about these things, you know, through the world of social media and things when there's all closer together. I guess my late 30s, early 40s really has put me in a very strong position to be able to talk about it or have no excuse not to just whether I chose to or not. Um, so yeah, here we are on 46 now. So, uh, 33 bit of math, 33 years later. Did you worry what people would think? Yeah, of course. You know, the whole range of did you lead the person on your dirty? What's wrong with you? Oh, that's why you've got one or two issues. You know, or why you're a bit weird or whatever. Um, you know, from all comments from your mates to school kids that have worked with, you know, you get one or two kids. You can't not every child can like you. So if they say something and you think, oh, sir, you're weird, you kind of think, well, is that because of the event that happened to me that makes me a particular character? Um, so you're always self-analyzing and doubting your ability, your character and trying to attribute it to this event that you've got locked deeper in your psyche. That's a demon that you need to resolve. But, um, in 20 years ago, some of that, I was, you know, a weary teacher not feeling very well during the kind of winter season going in for a checkup for a cold or tonsillitis. And in there, um, toilets, the male toilets, there was a post out with a green badge. I'm sure you've seen it. The We See You badge by Survivors UK. And for me, that was a beacon of light moment because it first exposed me to a community of men who had been abused, raped and everything else. And, uh, I didn't do anything about it. I think I might have wrote the website. I made a note and this was before mobile phones. Um, but I remember the badge and the color and then I think I saw it two or three times again throughout the next 10, 15 years. And then I think, um, as I started to get active on social media, I probably came across the account or started to do my own investigations and hashtags and what have you. And, uh, I just touched base for them and I think I must have reached out. And then I got, they posted me a little green lapel badge and that also part of my own process was to put it on my jacket. For two reasons. One, it was a badge that really meant something to me, the first badge in my life. You know, we've all wore, um, a poppy, the AIDS badge, all sorts of things. And of course they make a difference and mean things, but when you find something really, it's the only thing that I think in my life that's made of me really meant something that I wore on my lapel. Um, and I'm saying that out loud. I need to bloody wear it all the time. Excuse my language. Um, I need to wear it all the time. Um, so I take it on and off, but I know when I first wore it, I also knew that someone one day would ask me what it was for. And I had to be prepared for that moment and, and fun enough, it came. But I think I managed to get out and about around the streets of London and no one said a thing and I wouldn't expect anyone to do. And I think I passed one or one or two people wearing the once as well. Um, but the funny thing is I was just about to leave home and my wife had one of her friends round from the school run and she, she just said, what's that? And I had to respond and say it out aloud in front of my wife as well for the first time to anybody. And it was a real moment. Um, but I did it and I said it to someone else out loud. I guess it was a bit of a shock to them, but I managed to kind of articulate what the badge was for with the kind of undercurrent that it was representing me and my experience without having to go into details and I can't remember the conversation ended, but literally I kind of grabbed me bag and off I went on the tube to my next job, but it was, uh, that was also a landmark moment for me to be able to talk to someone totally new about it. And then I went to one or two events. I think teaching awards also down in London where I wore it and I remember someone else in a group actually. This was a group version. Uh, I was talking about teaching awards and the winners and you know, I was being a judge and then someone joined the group and said, Oh, what's that badge? And I had to then say it publicly to about 10 people. So there's the whole is learning to deal. I guess it was learning to deal with when and when not to say it what to say and what not to say and to also gauge over an else's response. You don't want to create shock on other people, but you also want the badges there to raise awareness and to also bust a stereotype that a six foot four inch male very successful in the teaching community has also gone through this experience. So I bust your myths and perceptions about a strong white male. What do you think would enable more people to speak up? Because it seems from what you said that when you were first open about it that you had lots of people who confided in you and that was perhaps the first time they told anyone what what might make a difference there? Do you think is it more people being brave like you to talk about it? I think it definitely helps. You know, I think the stories the reporting on the news, but you know, being given the time in the day to listen to those news reports. Hell, you know, back in my working life as a teacher full on 60 our weeks. Rarely do I get a chance to buy a book of stamps and listen to the news. Nevermind, talk about my demons. So everyone's got their own different circumstances and scenarios and time of their life when they talk about stuff. But you see all the different stories on social media, you know, black life matters and everything else. I think a lot of us take reassurance from other people who have similar highs and lows in our lives. As a kind of marker indicator that it's okay. We need to talk about it for whatever, whatever, whatever it is. And I think we can we can never talk about anything enough in terms of, you know, adversity and minorities and people that are victim to war and whatever else. So the answer is yes. How I guess through news report stories, Joe blogs, people like myself talking about it and people just going out of the way to rather than just me always promote my blogs and my resources go out of my way to share other people's stories sometimes particularly when given my audience and the amount of people that I follow occasionally rather than just tweeting about teaching just share someone's story. But the challenge for us all is we're consumed with so much content now. A lot of it becomes a bit noisy. So it's very hard to be heard and filter important messages. But there's a lot of companies out there that can help. So survivors UK was in my case and I'm sure there's others and survivors UK is a London based kind of organization for men victims of abuse. I still don't know who the version is for men across the country. I'm sure there's a name or something I've forgotten about but I think there's a need for that particularly in my case and others. You know more funding and stuff like that. But you know we all we fund you know given the virus now and two trillion pounds of debt and all the other issues we have to face. It's just you know there's there's children in need. There's people without food. It's all everything's a priority isn't it. Yeah it's a challenge isn't it. Do you think there's a role for for schools I mean in terms of creating an environment where if this has happened to one of their pupils that they can go and talk to someone seek some help. Well the interesting thing I wrote on my blog when I talked about it there that I'd organize a safeguarding event and I was sitting next to a teacher who our line managed and the lady in the room said the safeguarding lead said there'll be someone in this room a teacher who will have been sexually abused or raped. And the person next to me went yeah right under his breath and I kind of wanted as a school leader I should have pulled him out on it but because he was also my line manager and I hadn't yet dealt with my own. It us I stopped myself and I never lived that moment down personally in profession because I'd let I've let that person's myth perpetuate as a school leader number one in terms of calling out and to personally not dealing with it myself. It's just like you'd see you know a racism comment that time. So I feel very disappointed with myself at that moment but I wrote about it and thought well if we've got teachers in our system with those types of views for whether it is you know racism, sexual abuse what have you or even men being raped or sexually abused which people you know all the myths between men and women and men on men and women and women etc. We've got a lot of work to do so safe gardens always a top priority for schools particularly with children but there are lots of issues you'll be very surprised when you won't be but some listeners might be and there are a lot of issues within the staff profession itself. You know a lot of issues that schools have to resolve with the colleagues that they employ sometimes between colleagues never mind colleagues with historical events that they might emerge during their career within that school of college. But I think whether as ever as schools do you know good work in terms of helping kids navigate their way in the world you know condoms all those types of things that we do with sex education but exposing kids delicately to other things that they may not believe to exist you know man on man you know etc. etc. Busting a few perceptions but it's a delicate fit fine line as to as and when and then you've also got the parents to consider about what shouldn't shouldn't be taught in schools and all those types of things but safeguard absolutely number one priority. And do you think it is always the right thing for someone to speak out of something like this has happened to them or do you think there is a time when you might not. Probably yes and no I guess as an answer to the question. You know what's the event is it under investigation what can you say publicly what can't put the investigation at risk. Does it put the individual in danger. There's so many scenarios. I guess if I just talk about my own experience I was ready to talk about it is what's frustrating you know think of comments from Boris Johnson or even people that I've spoken to why wait 33 years. It's because everyone takes a certain time to process. And of course you've got you know episodic memory where it might fade over time. The evidence disappears all that type of stuff. And then you've got I might tell in the truth you know and also so you got all that to deal with as well but I think you have to respect the person whatever time of their life they decide to disclose. You know we all have mental health we all have different ways of processing things articulating things. And I'm an eloquent well educated man you know if I had ADHD or couldn't speak or as deaf and the same thing happened then it's going to be even more of a challenge and I'm sure there are a lot of people out there with those circumstances. So I think you know likes to people listening myself who are continuing to a podcast has got a reliable Wi-Fi connection and can put two words together compared to those vulnerable kids or adults out there living in poverty where those things may be happening and they do not have that network or that cultural capital to be able to talk about it. Those are the people you know we need to help everyone who are victims of sexual abuse and rape but those those should be our priority and I know the government have got an industry of experts and systems in place but there's never enough of everything as I said earlier about funding but I don't know if that's answered the question or not but I guess every situation has to be taken on an individual basis individual context that there's the law that has to apply and I think it has to be adapted to suits the context of the individual in the circumstance I suppose Was it a hard decision for you to go to the police about it because I say that's one where which our stories really differ. My therapist encouraged me to go to the police although it was many many many years hence because I'm pretty sure I could track down the man who raped me but it wasn't something I felt in any way able to do and I carry quite a lot of guilt because there's always that fear well what if he went and did it again or you know that well I I knew part of my little kind of pipeline of therapy process was that there was a slim chance that they would ever find him or that anything would be done because there was no evidence other than me and him in a room you know no other evidence DNA and whatever else all gone so I knew the chance of slim but I knew I were also another episode was looking through my mother's photographs I remember seen a photograph of him and think that is him in my heart sank when I saw it so I I made a log of the photograph where it was and at some point I mentioned to my mother who's this and XYZ and a name because I had a name in my head but it was totally a different name I think the police spoke to my wife I don't know the person's name I actually got the name wrong I'd given them a nickname but just part my healing I didn't want to know the real name because I just didn't want to do anything silly on the internet or anything like that but I part of the pipe loan was to report it to the police just in case they could connect their place of work because within a year and that there was a chance that they could search some databases of employment you know age male that type of stuff so they they did find him but my method was simply if I could give him one uncomfortable night's sleep known that the police had knocked their door with this accusation and that I had reported it more importantly a man because my father died in 2004 and I regret never telling him when it happened or telling him before he passed away and plus I wasn't at his death bed when he's passed away so I was adamant also to make sure that my mother knew and she's 75 but the interesting thing about my story was that my where I lived was a an annex or a building in the Salvation on a location of a homeless hospital or a children's home or a a fisherman's hostile type thing so as I would come home I'd go through the entrance up the building into our house which was secure but you think of all the safeguard and risk and DBS checks that we have today I know that I am not the only person child dare say within the Salvation Army who's been susceptible which is quite horrific really but I'm sure there's a lot of more you know you hear a lot of cases of 70s and 80s emerging because social media people see each other plus we people are of certain age get to a place where intellectually they have the now the capacity to have process it and now talk about it and have the the blog in platform to have their story shared so do think there's a certain era on a generation that can now but going back to my point about the police I just wanted to have it locked and I didn't want my mother and father more importantly to blame themselves for it happening to me under their nose so it was the classic although he wasn't a friend of the family or anything he was an employee under my father of the Salvation Army on a location where blame myself for not being a more aware or savvy because we had loads of Saturday jobs you know from milk and the goats to mucking out the cow pigs to paint and decorate him to clean and out the toilet size to do all these types of things before I went off the university so so that was another big reason for not telling my parents and also when I did tell my mother not happening and did it feel like the right thing once you'd kind of go on to the police and it must be quite difficult going through that process of yeah I mean I had to go through it all again it was a lot more rigorous yeah and under camera surveillance interviews all sorts of things at times when you didn't want to do it so they said you know interviewing here at this time under with this camera in these two people you need to come next week so whether you're ready or not you had to do it so so there was all that and not obviously fitting that in as a freelancer you know you work as and when you've got a job trying to fit that into appointments and not making an income was also a bit of a challenge but you go to my pin tweet on at Ross McGill I think I've tried to reply historically as and when different events happened just so I had a mental record of what was going on as and when I was dealing with it or when I was on a bad day or things like that so and did you go to therapy as well because you kind of refer to this as your kind of therapeutic process but did you did you actually get I have been offered it a lot of people have said I think I've talked about it personally to myself to my wife to others now and I see that and even though I would I know I would benefit from a professional therapist but I also know that I don't need it I don't I don't know if I'm in denial I feel much happier in my life I feel that I've said what I need to say I've done what I need to do I mentally feels stable our healthy diet I drink moderately you know trying to analyze all my own influences than factors and scenarios as to am I doing okay but that's not to say in 5 10 years or if something serious happens in my life health or bereavement that I might not go off the rails but it's a yes and no answer that's fair enough and I think the thing with with all of this really is that I think we're never kind of we're always on a journey aren't me I guess and that's it you've done your a lot of therapy and yet they're still that uncomfortable nurse I think for both of us I don't think either of us could just sit here and tell the story of what happened to us without it evoking something really deep and difficult the sorry go you know I I know once you know if I think about my father occasionally I'd break down in tears or there was a there was supposed to be a kind of teacher event for male mental health about I think last summer and sadly no one signed up for the tickets which also indicates that either people are interested in male mental health you know parting with their money or people don't want to go to that event because we've got two or three really important male speakers in the education sector plus me to talk about and this was also where I part of my healing process to talk about this publicly and I know when I've trying to think of the events where I might have said it in conversation and I've definitely said at key notes or training events where I've dealt with my own mental health and I've left it really like that yeah where people that know will know what I mean whereas other people might not or can go off and investigate but I've I've said that in that kind of way and I guess and do you said before that you had you know now you kind of look at yourself and you feel you're in a you're in a good place you're in a healthy place but that you had historically kind of numbed it through alcohol or or other things are you happy to talk about that a little bit that's yeah I can Freddie 10 1 minutes and then we'll go to the part and have to say that question again sorry just saying that you'd mentioned before that you had in the past kind of try to numb this through alcohol or or other means well I think looking back I'd numb in probably the right word but I think I make sure reason Salvation Army background Christian no exposure to drugs and alcohol arriving from you know North England to Southeast London in the 90s was pretty hardcore stuff you know I remember having the rip taken out me for wearing well wearing a Blackpool football club t-shirt you get the rip taken out of me anytime but I think in terms of fashion moving to Southeast London you know near Camden market that type of stuff and I was quite naive and and I think also moving to London gave me a bit more I also interestingly moving to the furthest part away from home I was probably desperate either to identify my own identity away from the Salish army and I managed to stay away from drugs and alcohol for two or three years of university so I was on a four-year B ed so in the fourth year and even though I didn't need a student loan I took one out to get a bit of finance and I guess it was beer money people call it don't know so at a good last year and and then the football team were finally quite happy if I had a pint here or there but I guess throughout the you know on an NQT salary in London there wasn't much left to buy a loaf of bread never mind buying a pint of beer but in my 30s I suppose when I started to earn a bit more as a middle leader and have a bit of more disposable income that's probably where I start to go out and enjoy myself on a Saturday and would I'd go out clubbing we made so we would start to maybe drink a little bit too much much more than nations or anything but when you start to experience being very drunk and you've never really had those sensations before not saying you hallucinate but certainly when you're drunk you certainly think in a different way and behave and if you're on your own and I you know all my family's been up north of 30 years so when you're living in a bed sit or a a one bed flat on your own you know trying to establish to some relationships or a family but you know single on and off for a long time into my early 30s so it was good 10 15 years of being a singleton bachelor in London and then starting to earn a good salary so you would go out with your mates because you're you're out on the look you know all those types of things and you pick up a drink here or there you know and drinking alcohol so ties in with your mood and you know being a teacher exhausted working you're not also eating during the day proper meals and you're going out on a Friday night and drinking many many pints of beer can see how it starts to really affect your health and your mental health and then if that becomes a routine it's a habit then isn't it you're doing it every week and I did probably for about five or 10 years I'll probably define myself as a binge drinker where I wouldn't touch anything during the working week plus also working in a DT workshop where if you're cutting wood in front of children on a bandsaw one little slip of the finger hung over there goes your finger so there was a bit of a risk as a DT teacher going to work with a hangover being a middle being a head of department response for other teachers you know all those types of things I'm not saying I did anything foolish but the all those thoughts anything trying to think of a word that would against the law but I've done what most young people would do that want to have a play around with alcohol and the party and things at that but I would say late 20s early 30s there was a danger where I was probably numb in the pain of either dealing with my loneliness in terms of relationships and my past and just living trying to live and survive in London and get some sense of family and home things are a lot better now yeah things are and it's hard work and it's you know it's it's just like like the blog and podcast whatever it's constant investment so you know I'm bit wiser now and I think all the advice I've been given to myself throughout the years about relationships I've been I've been someone loves you and a child and you know cat and dog and stuff one it's expensive so you can't work to have these things but you invest in your relationships how are you cuddle kiss every day these things make a big difference to a successful home environment and I'm trying to think how best to articulate it's it's you gotta look long-term you know it it's one silly mistake whether you know God forbid that I turn around and slap my wife in the face or I do something silly on a night out it's all destroyed in seconds so you've gotta you know I've come this far I'm not gonna let it go but you know life gets in the way car crashes bereavements fires whatever else and then and there you know things really decisions and if you've got a bit of history and some mental health going things to resolve it can throw you off the rails at any time and then distort your family you know whether your family distorts you or your fat you distort the family and so I treat I shouldn't say I treat but I look at my family my circumstances I have at home the same as I approached my blogging in my my my businesses that when people asking when I say I'm constantly tinker in the website every day or a tweet or a blog and although I haven't blogged or written anything for four weeks I'm taking time off I guess I'm re investing in the 12 years work where I have whereas on a Saturday night in my late 30s and 40s instead of going to the pub on a Saturday night I was blogging and I've done that for the last 12 years and so that's now where I'm reaping that reward so it's the same with family relationships you have to invest every day continually consistently consistently to reap the benefits and if something you need to constantly top up so it's like all of us when we live live listen to our grandparents stories and words of wisdom how do you live so long drink one glass of red wine a day that type of stuff whether the myths or facts consistent investments in the things that are important to you I think add up and I think also I think back to this particular topic I think the constant reminders whether I wanted them or not whether it's something in the news someone someone said something of red it's that constant reminder that there's a demon here I need to resolve and I've probably have many people to thank that I've had the capacity in the mental space to be able to deal with it yeah I guess I also have to thank my family my parents who you know working class background etc have given me you know the important things in life to be able to reflect and to talk and to be polite and say thank you to get to a position where I have the mental awareness and the reflection to be able to deal with it without breaking down or not we now to like I mentioned earlier someone with some learning difficulties or people not not the network around me to be able to deal with it and have you been able to come to a place of forgiveness of the man who raped you that's a good question I haven't never thought about that and the answers no I'm not I've not got to that point so I'll probably reflect on that question after we finish the podcast but I don't know what I would do and what I would say you have to come back to me for that one and you know I've been grown up to forgive people I know when I see anything on the news particularly within the teaching profession my immediate reaction is filth kind of lock them up type stuff which is not helpful I know but I find it so what's everything moves inside of me when using a child and I think I'm not yet in that position where I can forgive or be compassionate about people that do that to young people no your little boy wants to go to the park so is there a thought that you'd like to leave people with I guess just make when you already take time to talk to people would be you know at least can you talk to yourself I suppose but it's a it's a tough one that and because everyone's got their own circumstances and stories but I guess there's fine there'll be one person it's about finding the right person who's willing to listen and give you that advice and it doesn't necessarily I believe have to be a qualified professional I think that might come a bit later but that good friend or that listening ear or often someone that you don't know like you go to a conference and you end up talking to a total stranger about your deepest and that's just a great place to have a sounding board and I think those things help so though I've never gone to a kind of an event that's aligned with this particular topic I've always gone to teacher type conferences but the certain people you're drawn to and you start ended up having a really deep and meaningful conversation where you think or where did that come from out of nowhere within five minutes so you make very important connections with people and we all do so you find the right people that you can talk about certain issues with so I guess that would be my advice is talk talk to the right people when it's when it's the time