 Sarah Petition's African Rights Commission over proposed amendment of media laws. And the People's Democratic Party PDP warns Governor Matawali not to join the APC or risk-losing visit. Well, this is Plus Politics and I am Mary Anna Cough. The Social Economic Rights and Accountability Project Sarah has urged the African Commission on Human Rights and People's Rights in Banjul, the Gambia, to come up with provisional measures that could immediately stop the government and the National Assembly from amending two bills to gag the press through arbitrary punishment of journalists and closure of media houses. The query signed by Seraphs, Deputy Director Kalawali Ulua Dari, followed the move to push two repressive bills to amend the National Broadcasting Act and the Nigeria Press Council Act. Well, joining us to discuss this is Kalawali Ulua Dari. He's the Deputy Director Seraph and we have Kofi Battels, a broadcast journalist, and we're also being joined by a lawyer, Mondeo Bani, who is now a doctor. Thank you very much for joining us, gentlemen. Thank you. Thank you very much. All right, I'm going to start with you, Kalawali, because Seraph is at the forefront of this. Even though the Senate has come out to say that, you know, he has no plans to gag the media, but then Seraph is insistent that, you know, these bills that have been put forward are somewhat to gag the press and also to shut down media houses. Why do you think so? The antecedents of this administration appears at that turn. If one of the amendments to the act is made to regulate the media and bring the houses, then we can look to what the National Broadcasting Commission has done so far in the last six years with the broadcasting code. Several directives to media houses, including the punitive sanctions to Chinese TV, including the latest directive for media houses to deactivate their Twitter account. That itself, without even looking at the provisions of those bills, is enough to establish that this administration is out to stifle freedom of expression. Yes, what you pointed to is very interesting, but as a lawyer, I'm going to press on you again. Have you really studied those bills to see if, standing alone, do those bills really need the injection of these new clauses or phrases that the Minister of Information was making reference to or even the person who sponsored that bill on the floor of the National Assembly had to... Is there any need for it? And what exactly is that clause that they are trying to impute into the act? There are two aspects to this. One is the content of the bill itself, and then the use, the likely use. And we can infer the likely use from the participants of government. But for the content of those bills themselves, for example, we can look at the Press Council Act, the bill to amend the act. Section 3 creates some classes of people who would be members of that council. And we see prominently among those people, people that are nominated by the Minister of Information, who for the record is a politician appointed by this administration. And to think that these people were meant to provide codes that would guide the media and print houses alone speaks of the use of these bills when they virtually become law. And looking at the NBC Act itself, before it was amended, we've seen the way it's been used by the NBC. And frankly, the NBC Act does not need any amendment for the NBC to carry out its regulatory functions over media houses as it were. The provisions of Section 3R is very clear on what the NBC can do and what the NBC cannot do. If that bill is amended to give the NBC much more powers, what we are going to see is that these regulatory bodies' authorities will overstep their bounds. We've seen them do that over and again. We've seen innocent laws like cyber crimes act. It looks innocent in print. But we've seen how it's been used. We won't see add laws like the treason act. We've seen the way it's been used. So can we trust government with laws that circumvent civil liberties and affect the freedom of expression? That is a very important question we need to consider. Interesting question. I will throw the next question to Dr. Albani because of something the Senate said, and I'd like to quote them directly. I hope that that's put on the screen. The Senate said, and I quote, while freedom of speech is an inalienable right of the people and effectively captured in the 1999 Constitution, there's a need to ensure that some regulations are put in place to prevent reckless and irresponsible use of such rights, as had been exhibited by a few media establishments and individuals in recent times in the country. So Baristal Albani, looking at this statement by the Senate because they're making an excuse for or giving you reasons why they think that this bill should fly and it should be amended, how convinced are you by that statement that the Senate has put out because they're saying that many people have somewhat misused the free speech that we have and of course they're saying that there is a thin line between that and the misuse of your free speech. So how convincing is the Senate and do you agree with them? Yeah, thank you for having me. I am not convinced that there is good intention on the part of the present leadership of FPC in whatever they want to do with the amendment of the media laws. From beginning, besides showing that there are clearly adverse to free speech in Nigeria and there have been instances where which Kola Bole has, my brother has really pointed out that they have shown some level of recklessness on their own party clamping down on free speech and forgetting that the president has a constitutional responsibility on the part two of 1999 constitution to carry out their responsibility of reforming the members of the public about government policies. So it is this clear adverseness that has been shown over time by this government that makes any person not to trust any media laws that they want to amend at this point in time. Nobody believes the Senate in what they said about not trying to guide the press. The point is that to what purpose, what are you amended? What is the reason for that amendment? What has been your dissident in the previous times? Where people have freely expressed themselves and how we have clamped down there? And now you are asking for more powers? You are trying to amend in order to bring in more persons that we have pointed by the government in order to really, really violate the right of Nigerians to freely express themselves. It is clear with the banning of Twitter, it is clear with the issue that they want to touch all the platforms that we Nigerians use to express ourselves freely. Of course, with the constant threat, with this threat, like the Mohammed, every day, like Mohammed sleeps and waits all the threat of the fact that he wants to guide Nigerians, he wants to ban all the social media platforms of all the ex-SSC's according to him that have been committed by them of all the press. And we forgot the fact that this government that this government came strongly into power under the auspices of the strong use of social media. And the Indians aligned with them, you know, that beside the previous government and actually brought the previous government out because of the use of social media, but then they came in. They started showing so much resentment and so much threat hanging over the heads of the citizens, the usage of social media. And so I am not really, really convinced that there is any good intention on the part of this government in this amendment that they want to carry out. And I will not even believe this. If you have always said that anything that the president does or says, you know, they will always abide by that, even when it's contrary to the will and aspirations of Nigeria. So I am not amused. I am clearly, clearly not amused. I'm not in touch with them. I wholeheartedly adopt the submission of Paula Oleda. These guys have, and this is the one that is clearly dangerous and cannot anywhere allow them to carry out this amendment that will clearly violate the rise of Nigeria's official prestige. I'm going to ask you one more question before I go to Kofi Bartels about Soprani. Why do you think the government is so, you know, bent on making sure that this effect is, this change is affected, you know, in these two bills? Again, why do you think they're pushing for this? What is the end game? What do you presume the end game is? Because the government has just to the ABC government, this Bahari administration has two more years before it bows out. So what do you think the end game is? I think it's a question of our pursuit, you know, really set up on that and then begin to, you know, decipher the reason for this. Why the pursuit? Why the frenzy? Why the hurry? And why are they pushing it, you know, with so much force? Is that something that we don't know? Of course, when you begin to see politicians from the other major opposition political party or jumping to a piece, what is clearly behind the mind of this politician? What do they want to do with us in 2023? You know, they don't want to turn Nigeria into one political one party state and at the same time, make sure that you know what happens in one party state, you know, there won't be any opposition. There won't be any free allowance for free speech. Anyone that says anything that the government considers to be, you know, adverse to them, the person will be put in jail. So are they planning to work that direction? You know, so I am also amazed, you know, I'm clearly, clearly alarmed with your lackrity and the kind of push, you know, that they clearly are playing out with this issue of amendment, you know, so all of us are rewarded. That has a beautiful question to ask. What end? This government has only three years. So what is all this that Russia now do in order to make sure that the social media platforms are under the ramps, to make sure that the media houses are clearly under the ramps and all that they want to turn Nigeria into something else. So we should be rewarded. We should be alarmed and we should raise queries and interrogation on these issues. I love the question. And I think that as we ponder, we may be able to find these things for others. Coffee bar tells you're a journalist, obviously, and you work, you have worked with, you know, talk radio, you talked a lot about, you know, news, current affairs, politics, and you've had your fair share of somewhat, some subtle gagging. You have had issues with the DSS and you've had to answer questions. You know where I'm going. There are people who have incinerated that the government is threatened by the power that the media wields. The fact that the media is allowed so much freedom and the media is seemingly the hope of the common person. Do you agree that there is something that the government is afraid of and that's why these bills are being pushed or do you think otherwise? Meron, I guess your question is for me. I had a bit of an issue hearing you, but I think I can hear you now, Kenny. I think that, you know, it's a bit surprising the concentration, the fixation of this particular administration on media matters, be it social media, be it print media, be it traditional media. Popular and famous Nigerian, or social, recently described this amendment to the press council bill and the national broadcasting commission bills as worse than Decree 4. Now, for those who lived in Nigeria in the military and they would know what Decree 4 is all about and for somebody such a senior citizen to describe these bills and amendments to these bills as worse than Decree 4, I think that says a lot. I mean, the national press or Nigerian press organization, which is a body that includes the Guild of Editors, the Nisipa Provinces Association and the Nigerian of generalists themselves have also come out to voice a position to this particular, these are amendments and we have not a few non-governmental organizations like Sarah, who you have here, also voicing a position to this bill and the government should simply read the writing on the wall and realize that it's not doing something right. I mean, you cannot be right and every other person be wrong. These are trying times for freedom of the press in Nigeria. You know, the press is very critical to the sustenance of democracy in every nation. As a matter of fact, the press is probably the only professional group given recognition by the Nigerian constitution. The lawyers on this program will agree that in the constitution of the Federal Republic of Nigeria as amended in 1999 as amended, you have the provisions for the press to play a role in checkmating the government, the politicians and to ensure that there is information dissemination and holding leaders to account. So if the press is God, then of course, our democracy is dead. Do you feel threatened as a journalist right now with all of that's happening? The fact that you are unable to use Twitter legitimately because your country has shot it down and there are threats every day about the fact that they might take down other social media platforms like WhatsApp, Instagram and Facebook. Do you feel threatened? Do you feel stifled when you're doing your job? Do you feel the need to be subtle even when you want to tell the truth and put out facts? Do you feel that stifling effect on your daily job because of those messages that are put out by NBC every other day? I wanna say I feel threatened or I feel stifled but I would say that these are trying times for the press in Nigeria. But these are trying times because of course the resolve of the press has been threatened. The civic space in which the press operates is shrinking more and more. I mean, if you talk to observers people in the international community, people in the sales tax organizations in Nigeria they would say in the past few years, prior to now, the civic space was expanding. Nigerians are becoming more vocal when it comes to issues of holding leaders to account but in recent times the civic space has been not as strong and the leaders, the politicians and those in government have become emboldened, including the government agencies to confront the press. I mean, you know of organizations, press media organizations that have been fine, you know of press men and journalists who have been arrested and placed in detention. Some in the very bogus are charges placed on them. I mean, I myself have been the beneficiary of police brutality and attacks from government. So I don't feel threatened but these are trying and testing times for the media and for journalists and the press generally in Nigeria. Let me go back to you Kola Wale because your NGO is championing all of this. Let's break down the fact that the government is trying to re-regulate not just the media, the conventional and traditional media, they're trying to also regulate social media. Shouldn't we be having that conversation because we know looking at what's happened in India and the fact that they're also having issues with Twitter and Facebook, Australia is also trying to regulate Facebook because they feel that it's either been used for good and for bad. Shouldn't we be having that conversation of at least thinking that maybe there should be some form of regulation even if it's not the way that the government is going about it? Thank you very much. We need to be clear on the context for which that definition of regulation is being made, particularly when you need to look at who is speaking. From the part of government, there's so much being said about regulating. So regulating is if from the financial aspect of registration and possibly taxation wise, or we're talking of content or what they deem to be either eight-speech or harmful and that is where the problem lies, when to zero in on what is the intent of government when they talk of regulation. If the challenge as identified in very different clients is the potential for harmful speech or things to come up from the social media, then I can say we have enough laws in Nigeria that do that clearly. We have laws that would make you liable in civil law, in civil wrong for tort and libel. And we have the cyber crimes that I would say has wrongfully criminalized some aspects of eight-speech as well. So why do we need regulation? Government needs to clearly come out to define what they mean by regulation and what aim they seek to get from regulating social media. And to answer your question, the short answer would be no, we don't need any sort of regulation now. If at all, possibly for the policies of tax and that has to be clearly defined in whatever legal framework they're coming up with, but not regulation that would determine what is being put out, how that is to be broadcasted or how I'm going to speak for instance, the NBC telling media houses and with platforms that can use to disseminate their views, it's just clearly wrong. Okay, back to you, Dr. Obani. Is this the most pressing issue that Nigeria has now because I had asked that question earlier on? Nigeria has a lot of problems that we need to deal with, but again, just as I asked colorually, regulating social media, pushing these bills, would it in any way solve our problems of insecurity, the strife that we're facing right now, the fact that the cost of living is rising high, the narrow is taking a deep dive. I mean, literally everything is going wrong. If we do, if we were, for example, to say, let's go ahead with this bill and let it be signed into law, what would you address as per the problems that we have right now? Let me tell you the truth, why the government is pushing for this amendment and trying to guide Nigeria that when in memorabilia in 2014, they made several promises of what they intend to do. They were even saying that they want the dollar and Naira to be a part, that they will be buying fuel in the market at a certain price. Several other things they made promises for, for which they have actually felt. For that, Nigerians are freely using these social media platforms that they media to express themselves and criticize the government and also offer a possible way of trying to tell the government what they should do to give Nigerians full government. And then the comment that, they don't want that advice, they don't want that new way, they don't want Nigerians to open up to say, oh, we are not finding your governance, all that palatable. And that is the reason why they are going after the press in all areas and going after the social media. To answer your question directly, the issue of gagging the press and not allowing them to express themselves. Actually, some of the crises were presently pressed. We have a lot of crises in the country, insecurity, we have the show of economic problems. People are unemployed, the foreigners are not coming into the country. You now want to enter into crisis with the people. By gagging them, they don't allow them to express themselves and all that. And then crisis will improve and investors will be looking at your country as a crisis within countries. Why would they want to come and invest in a country where there is crisis? Why would they want to come and invest in a country where people cannot freely express themselves? So for that, the government is spending themselves in bad light before the international community. And this is where it's getting those guys that want to come in here to invest and probably employ Nigerians. So to me, they are not solving the problem, they are really exacerbating the problem. But they are creating more problems like they can solve. The best thing they can do is to try as much as possible to listen to the people. What are they saying? What do they want? What is it that we're not getting right? What is it we're supposed to do we're not doing right? And when the people express themselves freely, then you cannot know where they are, where it's pinching them and you can be able to address those issues and then probably be at peace with them. Nigerians love their leaders. Nigerians are very, very obedient. But what we want is quality leadership and that is clearly lacking. And whenever it lacks and Nigerians are open themselves to express themselves freely, our leaders don't like such things and the next thing that they come after them and then there is everything in the crisis in the long run. So I think that the person that is going to make you do is to actually listen to the people and try to address those issues and all of us will be happy. For now, Nigerians are not smiling. That is the truth. And lastly, Kofi Batels, and just like Parish Albani has said, Nigerians have the Senate. These people are representatives of the voices of the average Nigerian person. As much as people, a handful of people know how to recall their Senators. A few people don't even have access to their Senators. So if what Parish Albani is saying is they need to listen to the people, how come these people are speaking about their representatives that are doing the total opposite? So if you were to advise Nigerians as to how they can deal with the members that are representing them, what do they do? Miran, was that meant for me? Yes, for you. So could you please repeat the question? So I'm saying that Parish Albani said that Nigerians are speaking but the government is not listening. And I'm saying that we have representatives, we have Senators and these are supposed to be people who take our views into consideration. So what do we do to get these people to listen to us and do what we need for them to do? You see, I've always said that, you know, Nigerian, the politics of Nigeria is not even bad at all. Party lines as people know it, APC versus PVP. No, no, no. It's, you know, the political class versus the masses. And of course, when it comes to politics in Nigeria, it's not played based on ideological, you know, grounds or, you know, grounds of beliefs or, you know, differences in opinion. It's basically, you know, on the grounds of interest. And when it comes to interest, you could see someone from the North together with someone from the South, someone from APC together with someone from the PVP. That's why, you know, it's very easy for the politicians in this country to cross-cap it many times in a year from one party to the other. I mean, we're hearing that the governor of Zanfar has said he's moving from the PVP to the APC. That's just the latest. And so, so, so, the representatives and the politicians, probably, may be said to be beneficiaries of any, you know, system or laws that will make it harder for people to criticize government, you know. And that may inform why you have such bipartisanship on something like this. And when it comes to issues that affect the common man, of course, you wouldn't see bipartisanship. But when it comes to things like this, you would see bipartisanship. Well, who is that bold, courageous, Moses-like, representative or senator who will stand up and say, no, this has come to stop? Well, time will tell. You know, but Marianne, it remains to be seen if this law will seem like to obey all the amendments. I mean, I'll be surprised to see that the minister of information is the one who is setting the codes and standards for the regulation of the press, for such a body to regulate codes and standards, the codes of ethics for a press. I think the press and the media in general is well qualified, has eminent people to set standards for itself. We don't need a government official, a minister appointed by the president of the day, whichever party produces him, to set standards for that fraternity. I mean, for the president to be the one to appoint the head of such a council, the chairman of such a council, like the press council, I think that is something that Nigerians do not need at this time. The press is well equipped, well qualified to regulate itself. Imagine the minister of justice and attorney general of federation setting standards for the legal profession in Nigeria. I'm sure Dr. Abadi would not take his sitting down. And we, in the press, don't want to see this stuff like that. So it's a really, really boring times for the press in Nigeria. Well, Kalaulau Luadare is of Serap Doctor. Mundo Bani is the legal practitioner and Kofi Battels is a journalist. Thank you gentlemen for being part of the conversation. We appreciate it. All right, well, we'll take a short break and when we return PDP warns Governor Matawale against joining the APC or else, there will be consequences. We'll be right back after this break.