 In here. Where is it? Just me. It is cold. Okay, I'm going to have a power point tonight. It's the power point cable. No. I assume it's from the city beach. There's a shooting. That's what I assume. Yep. Thanks, how are you doing? Good to see you too. Time between meetings? Not for you. I have no idea. I didn't get any notice. Do you know how to set up the power point? It's best to talk to them when you're here. If you know how to set up the power point, you can't see it. But they usually need that. They can accommodate you. Yep. Wait till 8.30. It'll be even colder. Any heat in the building goes off. No. It's freezing. It's freezing. Wait till 8.30, it'll be even colder. Any heat in the building goes off. It's June. In about two and a half weeks it's going to be summer. Starting Thursday there's like 70 days in a row that can be about seven. Really? Oh my word. We'll know how to act. Okay. So I would like to call to order the South Burlington City Council meeting of Monday, June 3rd, 2019. And we'll begin with the Pledge of Allegiance. Pledge of Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all. And I'd like to just start the meeting with a moment of silence thinking about the city employees in Virginia who were sadly killed on Friday. I guess it could happen anywhere, how sad. So if we could have a moment of silence and think about them and their families and their co-workers who have to live. Thank you. I saw their city manager on TV having to deliver the news and work with it at a news conference. I'm sorry, I immediately thought that could be Kevin Doran doing the exact same thing. And it's an incredible tragedy, but unfortunately it's a daily occurrence it seems like. And I just hope it never ever happens here. I know we all wish for that but I just thought immediately of you of how that could have been you up there doing the same thing. So thank you for some of the security changes you've made to the buildings. Item two, instructions on exiting the building in case of an emergency. In case we do have an emergency tonight, please go out one of these two side doors and immediately exit the building and gather in the parking lot to the south if for some reason these doors are blocked. Please proceed back out through the lobby and out the main entrance and around to the parking lot. I will make sure that the building is clear so there would be no reason to delay. Please leave right away. Thank you. Okay, thank you. View, are there any additions, deletions or changes in order of agenda items? I actually have one item that I would like to add to the other business and this was just a brain fart I guess they call them. I forgot to include on the agenda the council discussing some of the suggestions about improving our communication with the school board some of the items that we talked about in the last couple steering committee meetings. Re-designing the format in ten of the steering committee meetings, addressing communication gaps and processes and then additional ideas of communication with the public. So if we can briefly talk about that during the other business maybe we can have some clarity and some structure and take it up as a normal item for the public and hear the conversation but I apologize I forgot to add it. So any others? Alright, moving on to number four, are there any comments or questions from the public that are not on the agenda? Okay, seeing none, announcements in the city manager's report so David you want to start? I don't, the only thing I can think of in the last couple of weeks was when we participated in the last Tuesday and was that last Tuesday? Yes. And when they came to agreement and voted to move forward with the community center project and enable the necessary permits to move that forward. I think that's the only significant thing I can think of in the last two weeks. Tim? Sure, after our last meeting we had a TDR meeting and then I went to an economic development meeting that I haven't been to yet I wanted to go. And then after that was a planning commission meeting and then we were all at the BIA NEM presentation I also was able to get to CCTV zero gravity 30th year celebration and completed a bingo card in order to get a free beer, thank you Lauren Glenn for that, it was great. But I had to rush to the BCA Board of Abatement meeting so it's meeting after meeting and then right after that was the committee head meeting so luckily there was some food there. The final ad is I, if you're done? Yeah. I had a really nice hour and a half meeting with Leo Warmer who is the head of the firefighters union and I learned a lot about what they do that not everybody knows that they do and what a great job they do and we talked back and forth about concerns and issues but basically we got a fantastic fire department and something we should all be proud of and I think I ended by saying which money grew on trees because it would be nice to be able to pay all of those folks more than we're able to but it is what it is but we take pretty good care of it and we had a real good discussion. Good. Megan? I also met with Leo. I also went to the airport's open house on the new exposure map. I think we're going to discuss that later as well as the... I just wanted to raise an issue that I've thought about but also someone who I saw at the airport open house raised with me. Why there are businesses in South Burlington that actually as part of their branding put Burlington on them and that is something at I think some of us here and I don't know if that goes to our sign word nints or I don't know but I just wanted to report that back. Should it be me too? Yes. Should it be South Burlington International Airport? For instance. For instance. It's primarily the hotels I think. It's marketing. It's all marketing. Burlington is the magnet that draws people to this part of the state and so like the double tree which sits right on the border and several of the others they market themselves as Burlington without intending any insult to South Burlington. So you kind of just go with it. I just thought I'd bring that back. I'll settle for the Chittenden County Airport. Agreed. So yeah I was at the NEM presentation as well also the BCA Board of Abatement meeting and I also attended the Pathways Vermont breakfast. The number one theme I took from that to help these Vermonards out of addiction is all about safe affordable housing. So just the stress and the emphasis that we've spent so much time on focusing on affordable housing strategies. It really pays off and you can see how that was a turning point for a lot of individuals in our community. So it was a good breakfast. And the consensus. And I downloaded that app today and I photographed my ID and I'm registered and I answered the poll. So I encourage everybody to download the consensus app and vote in the polls. Well I did attend the consensus press conference today. I also went home and downloaded and got all my information in and filled out the survey and would encourage other people. You don't have to provide any actual data about you. You can answer the questions without answering them. But I did, I photo I did all of that. I also attended the school board meeting last Tuesday when they shared with us that they would felt they had found a no stormwater solution that they could agree to and we could look at. I had there was a special airport meeting to use some extra funding to pay for. I can't remember what it was. Oh I know there one of the issues of the airport is that they really would like to TSA I mean not to have two just to have one common one but the price of that is 23 million dollars or something. So with some extra resources that are generated by the airlines they agreed to allow the airport to spend some money and they're building a ramp that goes from one area I guess the south end to the north end so that if one of them is really busy they can direct traffic to the other TSA and then go back to where their plane is taking off. So it's a gate ramp? It's a post TSA gate ramp? I don't you know I don't it's how they hope to manage some of the flow so if there happens to be more United Airlines and JetBlue at one end and they're all taken off and hardly anyone's going on Delta at the other end they can ship some of those people to go through the other TSA and then have this secured ramp that they can walk back to the other places where you get on them. Al Newman was pretty big on this the former board commissioner he also wanted to so that a restaurant is accessible in both secure areas too because right now the two separate areas are inaccessible. Well they have built another restaurant at the other end it's a smaller skinny pancake but they have two now that are separate but anyway I also went to the NEM BIA meeting the BCA and the board of abatement I attended the final part of the leadership meeting and then I too met with Leo and was impressed with well I don't know his energy and enthusiasm and sort of hopes for the fire department and the EMS crowd so that's always nice to meet with our employees who have those leadership positions and have them chat with us about what we see our issues and to hear what he sees as issues in the future. Oh yes that's right you want to talk about? Sure. I forgot about that meeting the 12th of so it's the Wednesday next Wednesday June 12th we're having our second meeting it's an organizational meeting for a series of events for domestic violence and sexual violence partnered with the school's counseling and there will be two events in October and then we'll follow up in April. October is domestic violence month and April is sexual violence month with a focus on education to our high schoolers and so we're still in the preliminary stages of organizing I don't have any set details yet but stay tuned I guess for future. And we're working with the police chief this was a issue that he really raised with us and it seemed like it would be a good thing to pursue so we are doing just that. Kevin. Thank you. Just a couple things Helen and Megan thanks for coming to the press conference today. I think we're off in the right foot with the consensus this is a pilot project that we're working with a company out in Toronto that real time only data and information on issues of the day so everybody should be encouraged to go up and download this app and we'll have instructions on the website on how to do it but it's an ability for you to answer polling questions and I say real time and have that data accumulated and provided to the council or provided to the committees who are looking for input from the community so it's exciting three or four months long pilot and then they will have the data they need to go out and perfect their application and probably take it worldwide. That's their hope. Anybody interested in the paving plan for this year you all are. It's on the front page of our website so if you go to the front page of the website and scroll down there's a big section there to click on about the paving which we'll start here shortly after the beginning of the fiscal year. We'll talk about the steering committee later four of you can make the steering committee meeting, propose steering committee on the 18th. One of you cannot and maybe we'll talk about that as part of your report. Please to let you know that Shelvern has joined the Champlain Valley Conservation Partnership, the Regional Conservation Partnership and so the other communities are now taking that issue to their select boards. July 11th will be the first Sobu night out so you can ink that into your account. It'll be warmer than tonight. It may not be sunny. No it's going to be sunny and warm. One of you have asked that we have a report from Chief Burke about this training that the police Tim asked for an update on that and Chief Burke will be in it your meeting on the 17th to talk with you about that. Thank you. He's very happy to do that. I also I just want to make another comment about the consensus you know I think it's really very very exciting because the way it's structured as I understand it it really can be an iterative process so you ask a simple question and I think one of the questions on the format is have you ever ridden your bike to work and that can lead to additional questions about bike paths and where you want them where they're needed maybe questions and comments about areas that need fixing up on the current bike path and so I think it also offers the opportunity as we work through whatever the issue is to provide some background and information to the public so that the questions that they are asked to answer come within some context a way to really reach out to a group that maybe we haven't connected with in the other paper and the Front Porch forum or emails or Facebook but we can also provide some really good information so I see it really is that sort of foundation of democracy I mean maybe more people will get out and vote if they take this 10 seconds I'll answer that question, read two paragraphs and get more interested in what is happening and then be able to register their thinking so that they're part of the process and not just the first time they hear about it is Article 4 on a particular ballot and they don't have the background that they would like to have so I think it's really pretty exciting and could really be used very effectively to both get feedback but also to reach out with information that informs Okay, number 6 Council's reports from committee assignments Do you have anything from focusing? Yeah, I just wanted to, we haven't had a meeting since our last City Council meeting, tomorrow night is our next meeting but I just wanted to recognize Sophie Mazawita who's a member of the Open Space IZ committee she began I believe as an intern working for our city offices and specifically as a master's student in the Rubinstein School of the Environment Natural Resources, she put together a study of red rocks and since that time she has been continuing her work I believe she has worked as an officer for the South Burlington Land Trust she's also put together an online wildlife tracking program that people anywhere can dial into and can show we're wildlife and is spotted in our city and try to track those migration patterns I think is really helpful to our work on our committee and she's just done a lot and I know that she's going to be moving out with her husband and she'll be back in October for I guess a more formal wedding ceremony but she's heading out west and she'll be working at Yellowstone so we are losing I think a real gem and she hopes to come back and I certainly hope she can come back too so she says that she will continue to do what she can with the open space IZ committee even from away I'm always happy to report GMT was in the news lately would you like an update on that? Approximately two Tuesdays ago at 3pm the city of Burlington and I believe the city of Winooski they don't have school buses and so their kids take the GMT they use the GMT bus services to and from school there was an incident where a driver in violation of our GMT policy got upset with passengers that were children on the bus and ask them to leave again that was not in accordance with our policies our policies are to deescalate the situation to contact the head office to speak to a supervisor before asking any passenger to get off the bus so we are working through those concerns and I have not yet seen the video but I have spoken to many who have and I don't think it's necessary to see the video because there are certainly concerns that have I will see the video sooner or later but the concerns raised about racial bias projected from the driver people walking away from the video somewhat have less of a concern they don't see it as being obviously racially motivated at all there are undertones undercurrents to those concerns and I think those are valid in today's society but we as an organization are working through that and again we are working through the appropriate processes for the driver in the process to both discipline as well as any other more serious resulting actions with their employment at GMT do you have any questions about that incident? Right now our GMT manager is presenting to the Burlington City Council with our Burlington GMT board members so I debated on attending that one but I like this council better so I decided to attend here I have a good question because I didn't state this but I see Paul out of the corner of my eye right now do we have dates for our first public outreach meetings for the open space IC committee? Not that I'm aware of yet but I will check with the chair So those are the two coming up? I did attend the TDR meeting not much report from that we're still wrangling over sections of the report it's a draft report I think Michael Natag has gone on vacation for a while speaking of wildlife has anybody seen the Goslings not at IDX? Wow I just saw them last weekend they're big now they didn't know they were there I was just driving by going very cute I already reported Okay moving on consent agenda we have four items the disbursements appointment of Delilah Hall as administrative officer authorizing the city manager to negotiate and execute notice to proceed for angle birth construction for geothermal wells and amend the resolution establishing a South Burlington affordable housing committee to increase the number of members from seven to nine members We'll make the motion that we approve the consent agenda Second. Any discussion? All in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Number eight council consideration of possible action related to the 2019 warrant for unlicensed dogs and cats Donna. Liberty in conversation Good evening Donna Kimbill City Clerk. As state law I have handed over to you a list of unlicensed dogs and cats that was effective as of May 28th As I stated back when we did our drawings for top dog first feed line our dog and cat numbers continued to increase even now after the deadlines have passed right now we are 71 more cats than we had last year which was still up from the year before from the year before and 28 more cats than last year so we're on the right path so we're doing something right. Just a little background I have done a lot of publicity to get people to come in and register cats and dogs Front porch forum five times sent numerous emails at least five times to people that we have emails for we advertised the other paper about four times we had a colored flyer we have a sign out here by the road so we've really done a lot to try and get people to register prior to the deadline because we hate charging those late fees but that's what they're there for. The role of the clerk in this whole process really is to be a registrar of the dogs and cats and I really don't do anything with enforcement wise enforcement of those people that don't register their dogs and cats is typically borne by police officers constables or animal control officers I have reached out so many times that I've kind of lost my influence so to speak it's like all another email from Don another email for another posting so I've kind of reached my max on that so I am asking for this one I am offering to reach out to the animal control officers of the 122 pets we still have unlicensed from last year which is down because we've done a lot of work trying to get these numbers cleaned up about 80 of them we have email addresses for so we're really quick to be able to do a nice little quick email blind copy everybody send it out from the animal control officer so it has a little bit more bite than what I have and then about 43 of them we don't have that information for but we could do a mail merge with a letter so something I can help them with get it done really quick but it has to be from their letterhead and so people stop saying oh that's just not bothering me again the police or animal control officer or somebody along those lines so I'll be willing to help them out if that is the next step are they interested in doing that if you assist them I have actually we started a conversation because of the form they're supposed to fill out when they pick up a dog or cat so we started the conversation started the process of that conversation so I don't think they have a problem with that they have no problem if in this email or letter they send out that says please contact the city clerk to let to finish the registration process but I think that first initial reach out has to be from them now and then they can just refer everybody to us so that would be great so basically whatever you want to do with this warrant it's typically up to you state statute says I must turn it over to you after June 1st every year you have the option of just putting it on the shelf and deciding to do nothing having animal control officers send out just some type of correspondence up to and I hate to say this but you have the right to impound any unlicensed dog you have the right to put it up for adoption if they do not do so and you have the right to put down a dog you have to put that out there because those are all within your purview so just giving you the A to Z scope of what you can do can you remind us what we did last year it was either last year or the year before you asked me to do one more reach out and we have done that since we have had a few more but like I said I think I've reached out so many times now that people now just see a post from me just like I'm kind of putting it to the side and that's why if we can get it through the animal control officer just to send out a blast I think it just has a little bit more weight behind it than what we have and it is truly about the safety and security of our residents and as you can hear from the dog park committee I mean there is money that we can be using to put forth for future projects Hasn't we ever used shame like publish the name I know for a fact that I'm looking for these names and there's a couple people I'm hoping that maybe their animal has died and that's why I'm here I'm hoping they're dead but I think that's the reason I know for one of them yes but then as we're reaching out to the everybody on this list has been contacted at least three times and they have not responded back to us please take us off your list that so and so respond has passed away or is not with us or has moved out of town so we remove them all so these people who are on here are the ones that have not responded back to us two years ago you gave us the whole list of all those names I think the other paper I think picked it up a couple years ago where they actually said oh pumpkin is still not registered and they named a couple and it was a miracle and it was a nice friendly way but it kind of had people come in going I saw my name in the paper and they came in and they registered or saw the name pumpkin as like oh I know this my cat's name so I knew I had to come in so it's really up to you and I give this off to you to do what so what is the pleasure of the council any thoughts I mean what do you think we should do my suggestion really would be just one more outreach by the animal control officer because they just have that last little nudge from them that if they get something from them they are going to pay a little more attention than they are from the city clerk police stationery I don't know what the animal I think we can just ask that that seems like a reasonable step and if the police department and I can reach out to Patty tomorrow and let her know that that's alright yes I just like to propose that you just throw this out there that at least the veterinarians that are in South Burlington might get that reach out from Donna's office or from the animal control person because they're taking care of people's dogs so it might be good if they were saying has the dog got a license you know so is there a healthy issue with that though with what no no I mean just a veterinarian just if they get it they're not them giving the names but if the veterinarians were encouraged to just say you know it looks like I see that your dog doesn't have a license on you know confidential in their office but if the veterinarians got something that would request that they do that you know gee when you see your patients maybe you want to check you know what I mean it's just something else to you know work you know to help with that in veterinarians also just so you know there are pets that aren't vaccinated and that's why they're not licensed they still have to be they still have to be registered well is there something may not want to kick the can down the road too far but is a would it make sense to ask the dog park committee I mean that's the only committee that's dealing with dogs that we have I'm aware of to compose a letter to send to the vets in the area encouraging them to remind their patients to register and we do because one of the reasons our numbers are up is because we if someone comes in and register their pet and their rabies is expired or they've got to bring it in as a new dog we will call the vets as soon as we say hi this is Don from okay who do you need me okay I'll send to your pack so they know so they're quite comfortable and they're happy to do that for us they're well aware of it in fact we'll get vets so we'll just access rabies certificates as soon as their pets are so do they look all vets routinely ask or suggest or request that their patients be registered do you reach out to all the local area vets and say please every time you have a point that's what Betty's suggesting the better but perhaps when we hear the dog park committee report maybe you can't use the dog park if your pet's not registered that's certainly and one of the things we have now up and running on a new website wasn't up for a while is the ability for people to anonymously report an unlicensed dog or cat so you can go on to the website under city clerk dog licensing and you just put in the dog's name if you know it the address and it ships out an email to me under a separate little email address so I know it comes through it's anonymous there is no there's no way I could track this person back who reported it and then we turn on we contact the owner that they said has this dog or cat and give them so much time to respond to come in and register or call us and then if they don't we turn it over to the animal control officer who then will make their little call so we're trying to find all these little ways to kind of get things done well why don't we try this letter with police letterhead and see if we get a few more I'll talk with Patty tomorrow. He knows some of the people on this list we could I know but jingle and say we're not publishing it but we could okay thank you very much thank you and certainly it's nice to learn that the numbers are going in the right direction okay number nine moving on to another little doggy issue dog park committee report discussion and possible action it's a it's I hit standby oh it worked before oh did it they're paying attention they're busy talking somewhere until Helen and Megan are talking yeah chairman meow by the way a lot of good names on those okay good evening I'm Barbara service I'm chair of the south Burlington dog park committee pleased to be here Maggie Luger staff and there are all of the members of the dog park committee including the three applicants are all here tonight and I am pleased to be able to represent them I'm going to go back just a little bit not far but just to remind you that we started in October that's not very long ago for the amount of work that I think we're going to talk about tonight and I can't say enough about the work that these these folks have all done but the first thing we did was to develop a mission statement it really is about community it's about the dogs and the people and to enhance the quality of life we created a work plan and that picture is from the forum we held on the 15th of May we had about 50 residents show up who were very excited about what we had to report and Diane used one of her email blasts and I think that helped to get some people who didn't necessarily know but we have we started with research and Betty Militia was our researcher extraordinaire in terms of looking at other cities programs and websites Paul Connor and Holly Reese and Justin Rabadou from the city were incredible resources we did a community forum we actually did two community forums that focused around the committee and there were two others that focused around Chamberlain and JC Park so we've done four forums we did a community survey and Larry Kupferman was our survey guru putting some of that together for us site surveys and site visits both in Burlington because a lot of people talk about Burlington and Shelburne and so people on the committee went and looked but then looked at city owned sites across South Burlington and once we were at the recommendation stage then we had the last forum and really have engaged in a lot of opportunities for community comment I want to talk just for a second about the power of commitment we've had 15 meetings since the 1st of October plus site visits to dog parks around the area a lot of shared work a lot of listening and the most amazing thing is that I can tell you we agreed today that we came to consensus it took us a while to get there but we really did work by consensus and it was a pretty amazing experience we looked at city owned properties that was our focus in a number of places and eliminated several location was by far our biggest challenge and we hope that in the next presentation of the work of the dog park committee there may be opportunities to look at private or institutional property for consideration for lease for purchase for donation whatever but our focus right now has been on city owned properties because we thought that was a better option and might be easier though that wasn't always true the finalists were ferrell red rocks and the wheeler homestead we looked at ferrell a lot of people used the existing dog park areas way too small looked at upper ferrell and discovered that the area that might have been okay was way too close to the recreation areas that are used by residents and by recon parks and it was very clear to everybody who went and looked at that that it seemed like a good idea until you actually stood there we looked at red rocks there is a huge concern in the community around red rocks there is I understand on the recent clean up day they cleaned up at least 150 pounds of dog excrement in red rocks that's a terrible effect on the flora and fauna the dogs are also chasing away the animal life there so we it's theoretically an on lease park but we all know that people don't use it that way the local folks are concerned even if it were an on lease park that the wildlife impact is huge so we set that aside for the moment I know there are people that would like us to look at it again but for the moment we wanted to try to bring you in a short period of time a place where you could in less than a year since all of the controversy establishes site for a city dog park and we settled on wheeler homestead it's large enough the site we looked at is more than an a half maybe not quite to the matrix score is 29 the best matrix score we had on any site before this site was 20 in your packet you all got the report from the committee I think in your packet so the full matrix is in there I'm not going to read it to you but you can see that it actually will go to about 31 when we add water and a couple of other things to it so it the number goes even higher it were categories scoring category one two and three so how do we know which is which or was it all score at the end I said 29 but it's oh I see okay sorry we are also eager to protect the environment of the adjacent nature park given what's happened at red rocks the wheeler nature park is we are also seeing a lot of dogs there off leash and we don't want it to get any worse and we're hoping that by creating a nice good sized dog park next to the nature area that people will use the dog park instead of the nature area that's our hope and it's also central to the city red rocks and feral are toward the south end of the city we have taken three sites away from Chamberlain this is at least a reasonable distance as compared to some of the other options so and when we get to the recommendations we are all we are recommending some upgrades at ferrule if you look at the photo that's what ferrule looks like in the winter it is iced over there's a need for a hard scape surface and we are not defining hardscape we are leaving that to Justin to determine and to work with the committee about what the final recommendation for what a hard surface will actually mean at the entrance but so that it is more accessible for people who have limited mobility some new signage some winter surface maintenance hopefully access to water and some shade that those will come in two phases at ferrule I talked about the site selection matrix criteria these are some of the important ones that we talked about and looked at carefully that we were concerned about and that people had raised in the earlier community forums that were their concerns and we think that this site addresses those criteria so Wheeler homestead if you see the oval that is approximate that is not Justin did not draw that I did so don't hold him to that but it is the approximate location it is about an acre and a half we hope it might be closer to two Mike Mentag mentioned at the community forum he said can't you make it bigger and we said we'll do our best to get it as big as we can like I said it will reduce the off leash use of the wheeler natural areas the split rail fence with vegetation as a visual barrier the split rail fence is much nicer looking than the chain link fence that we used at JC park and at the other parks in Chamberlain we think it will fit much more nicely into that particular environment and not be a detractor but be something reasonably attractive and it will also be below the sight line from the homestead so if you're standing at the house the fence is not going to come to the top of the hill but it will be below that so that it is a nice aesthetic view we've had a lot of conversation about that the suggestion has been 5 feet and that's what we think it's going to be it's pretty tall there were people at the forum who were concerned that they needed a 5 foot fence for their dog I'm just reporting what we heard and so it will be something greater than 3 and maybe as much as 5 amenities for wheeler in what we're calling phase 1 which is what we need to do before we can open it split rail fencing with the wire you can see there's a photo there on the left that shows what that kind of fencing looks like or you can go down Dorset street near Butler farms is that what that is and there's fencing there that's like this as well and it's really quite attractive and much more natural and no corners on the fences one of the problems with the existing fence at Farrell is that dogs can corner a dog and so we're going to make sure that this has round edges so that dogs can't do that accessible areas with hardscape surface again for accessibility issues good signage attractive signage I talked with Tom and Kevin a little bit about signage when we all agreed that it was not going to be a baseball field kind of banner that you hang on the side of the fence but that it would be something tasteful baseball is tasteful but it's seasonal and this is you know it somehow it fits on the left side as you go into veterans park but on that corner that just didn't feel right to us a water source and eventually a water dispenser stations and after the community forum a resident came forward and donated $500 toward the purchase of the first water so that it's something that has a stainless steel bowl in it and the water comes out and the dogs can drink from it and maybe it has a fountain on the top for people as well but in the beginning there will at least be a spigot where people can fill their water sources some benches waste dispenser and disposal some sort of like we already have in places but there need to be at least a couple of those and then play structures and we had an interesting conversation about what natural materials means what it means to us is none of those bright red blue green yellow kind of structures that dogs sometimes play on it could mean a culvert pipe which really isn't natural but it's not plastic so we're having kind of a broad definition at this point Justin thinks that he has probably a couple of tree stumps maybe a big rock maybe a piece of culvert pipe or we might be able to get some of that donated so that it would be a play structure of sorts for the dogs but it would not be a detractor it wouldn't be ugly so that's sort of phase one of the amenities for Wheeler those are the things that we think we hope to have the water dispenser station once we got the donation we put it in phase one but we also were reminded tonight that we need two because we need one for the larger dog area and one for the smaller dog area so that one may we'll see how it comes to pass. Phase two additional landscaping we really do want to put landscaping some sort of is it a lilac you want Betty? Maggie and I just talked about different kinds of fast growing some kind of shrubbery shrubbery some kind of shrubbery that even though the fence is going to look nice we think it would be really nice if we could have more shrubbery type around it and that's also something that we might be able to get donated so a number of options that would be explored by the community some additional shade either trees or a structure to be defined as we move to phase two and maybe some more place structures so that's the amenities anything about amenities although that's okay here yes good put that on your notes okay good and then ferrule in phase two new signage access to water and ferrule in phase one has only things that Justin thinks that he and his staff can do at no cost but these are the things that will take some money in phase two we also that was what we did are there any questions about Wheeler homestead before I go on to some of the other things that are in your report are there any we're going to talk about hours we're going to talk about that generally in the report that we submitted to you is a list of things that we thought would be probably the rules and regulations we decided that those are a draft and that the committee this summer will sort of finalize those we got nice input we didn't have any huge discussion at the community forum there were some interesting things that they raised there was a discussion about hours and we basically are recommending at this point in the draft that it be dawn to dusk otherwise you get into the whole issue of lighting and all of that and we really didn't want to go there so Justin did a survey it's in your packet of the rules of many of our surrounding communities in the Vermont communities and we used that for some guidance we did draft some rules and like I said the next step will be final review and we recommend that there be not only signage but that maybe the other paper could in conjunction with it's time to license your dog and one other time of year remind folks that there are rules around the dog park and I know one of the things that occurred earlier and I will mention this was the issue of an extra fee and we are not recommending that and we are not recommending that it be locked in any way for south Burlington residents only that's for now there are no communities around here that do that Burlington Shelburne Milton other places that people went and looked and we decided that this was not the time for us to be the one to say we are going to charge and sort of open that bailiwick we have another way that we are going to kind of get to that and if it gets to that it's sort of for the initial phase let's try it and then you can always tighten based on experience rather than making them too tight in the beginning let's create some parameters and see if we need to make them narrow at least that was our thinking okay cost estimates you may remember that last year we looked at veterans just one park at veterans and the bill was going to be about $60,000 we think this is a pretty good number 38.5 for phase one $55,000 all the way to the end of phase two there currently is $25,000 in the budget we have a proposal for a couple of other ways that will add some money to that we can't do anything about fundraising or friend raising or friends of the dog parks until we have the blessing of this group to say yes we are going to build a dog park at Wheeler Homestead and we believe that there are people and commercial entities in south Burlington that would step forward to support this and hopefully help us make the additional $13,500 over the $25,000 I talked with Kevin and Tom briefly about maybe fronting the money if we can't get to it can we get some flex from the city to do this and I wrote a place that we wanted to take something out of phase one for Wheeler we thought it was a tight budget so and the full budget is in your packet I just put some basic numbers up here tonight because I knew you had the full report in your packet so it's 38.5 and the pieces at Ferrell can be done at no expense for this year and then move to phase two for Wheeler and Ferrell as the resources become available any questions about this? Have you looked at what the average parking usage is for that gravel parking lot which would be adjacent to the van would be for parking for people with dogs who are going to the nature park to walk around the proposal will include additional parking spaces up to six they're going to have to get to the design phase before they can tell you exactly how many more whether those would be designated for the dog park is still a matter of discussion we know that there are some times that that lot is pretty full one of the things we talked about was is there a way to put markings on there so people don't leave so much space between their cars that you could put six more cars in there if they park so far apart. It's been a conversation item about whether or not we could figure out a different way to get people to park more efficiently. You also do have the house right next to it which is Wheeler house right? Yes. Have you talked to anybody like Friends of the Library, Carol McQuillan common roots about any potential noise issues or was thinking about maybe hosting some dinners there with her meals that they're preparing on Tuesday nights I just don't know, I mean sometimes we had issues before but it was a different issue. Yeah those were exacerbated barks but yes I have talked with Carol she has no objection to this she came to the community forum she and Sarah both came several people from the land trust came and all of them said they had to do it. Yeah but it's a good question and we were asking it ourselves so fee structure, so I mentioned the no residency requirement the current dog license fee is $21 $16 of that goes through the work to for Don at a mail all of those things and give people dog tags and do some ads and some flyers and the gift poop bags at registration etc. We are suggesting that you increase the license fee by $4 to $25 and designate that $4 specifically for dog parks. So it could be for improvements in the existing dog parks it could be to set aside a fund that would be used to establish new dog parks but it basically would take care of the maintenance issues and improvements that might come along in terms of being needed. How many dogs are typically registered? Roughly. I think it's like $12 or $1300. It should raise about $5,000 a year is what we figured. And that would be a nice figure to set that aside and let it grow so you could have another park in the first years it could help to offset the difference between what's in the budget and what we think the park should cost for initial construction. So that's our recommendation is for a $4 increase in the fee and there was no objection to that in the community forum at all. Donna and I were talking earlier one of the things that was interesting to the committee was that a lot of people said they had no idea where the $21 went and so when we put this slide up they went oh that's interesting. Thank you. Okay, we can live with that. And another $4 was fine with them for a dog park. I don't know why not. There's a proposal in your packet for Yeah. Organizational structure. We had lots of conversation about this last year when we were establishing the dog park committee. We would like you to reaffirm that this is a standing committee. We also are recommending that for the initial phase from now to opening that the dog park committee work with public works because that makes the most sense to us. And that at the point at which the dog park opens then the dog park committee would work with Recreation and Parks staff. We've talked to Justin and Holly about this. They're fine with that. It makes sense to them, et cetera. And then the other thing is the creation of the Friends of the Dog Parks. And Betty Malizia and Maggie Lugers are going to take that on and we had seven people come up at the community forum. We have some people here tonight who were at the forum and who came to the last meeting and then came tonight because they wanted you to know that they think this is a great thing and they will be right there with Friends of the Dog Parks. So we're hoping that that will be part of that and that the Friends of the Dog Parks would be sort of the eyes and ears support. Sort of feeding information to whoever needs it as well as increasing public awareness, doing some fundraising, providing program suggestions and support to Rec and Park programs. So they did Morning Joe with Fido this last year and that Friends of the Dog Park would be there to help with that kind of activity but that they would collaborate basically with the Dog Park Committee but be available for any number of activities and they might hold activities of their own. But it would be complimentary. So our work continues. This is the future of the Dog Park Committee. In terms of obviously the design and implementation of the first Dog Park is number one on our list. Finally is the operational policies and procedures so that when the park opens everything is ready. Establish the Friends, do some fundraising and then going with an ongoing evaluation and review the existing ordinances and draft the master plan for the future of Dog Parks. There's been some linkage with other city committees about putting Dog Parks in the PUD, is that right? PUDs. And things like that. So there have been changes with other committees. So these are our recommendations that we bring to you for consideration tonight. That you direct the Dog Park Committee to work with Public Works to implement the design and construction of a new Dog Park at Wheeler Homestead. Approve a two-phase budget, approve the $4 increase, the organizational structure, approve the creation of the Friends, reaffirm the Dog Park Committee as a standing committee and we have three new members tonight that you're going to interview and they have been sitting with us since the forum in February. They have attended all the meetings. It's been wonderful to have them as part of the discussion and we're delighted that they're coming for you to have a chance to meet them tonight. So one more thing I'd like to say, I've talked about this group but I want you to know who they are. Linda Chason, Larry Cufferman, Betty Militia, Mike Seminoe, Maggie Lugers has been right-armed to all of us and then the community members, Molly Bezzi, Kate Lucas, and Miriam Moore, it has been an incredible group that has done an extraordinary amount of work. So, dogs help people connect so where dogs play, people play. We're providing a place where dogs can be dogs and people can interact. We are creating community. Well I want to thank you for your leadership and work because I don't think it's a great adventure. Listen well reflect, take care of some of the volatile issues that were there that really needed to be addressed in a constructive way. So you really were fabulous even far off and were able to manage that. Thank you very, very much. Thank you. I should have mentioned IT. They were terrific. They made us connect all winter. They did. They did. I would just like to say that Barb has been an extraordinary leader and I really want to stand up and just say thank you very much. The only thing I need is the city council to adopt the recommendations and then we are... With that I make a motion that we approve and support the recommendations of the dog park committee and within that motion we express our sincere appreciation for the diligent hard work that you did to come up with a great plan. Second. Worded that way. Thanks. I just have a question though. The conservation easement, how is that going to all fit in? This is outside of the conservation easement area so it's on the homestead park. There's an important element of this too that we mentioned. We do have to do some wetland delineation in the area from the consultant to go delineate the wetlands. So there's some concern in that area but hopefully we'll be able to find some land that is not wetland. There's some cattails. We know that they're there. Dogs are like those. We also already agreed that there is this area that's got some cattails and that the fence is going to go around that so that the dogs don't run through it. Not only for the protection of the environment but for the fact that we don't need all those money dogs. So Megan if you look at the green is the homestead and the rest of it is the natural area so the park is in the, or the proposed dog park is in the homestead area and not in the natural area. I guess I missed a step. I wasn't aware that we had already separated the homestead from the rest of the park. The plan separated it right? Yeah I think that there is a designated homestead area. Right right right but for the conservation easement where are we? Oh where are we with that? We're still working on it. But the homestead is outside of? Yes. And this is that step. Yep. Sorry. It's not touching the existing act to 50 mitigation areas right? No. Right. Was that your question? No I just wanted to, so any other discussion right? Yes. If there's more discussion. You want to hear from any dogs in the audience at all? There is one. There is one. Is he licensed? Let's just share. I don't want to drag this on too much. I fully support this. This is great. I just would hope that we don't make it too nice to the point where so many in the area use it and then we have parking problems so the water bulb and even if we do, the one thing I didn't hear in this presentation you're seeing here, maybe it was in your report, I'd love to make it easy for people to donate. So if you have somebody visiting and you make a QR code, a way to Venmo or PayPal, a donation for using the park, I've seen that on hiking trails and so on and other maybe the friends of the dog park can make something like that happen. Make it look official and people are happy to give the money as long as they know. I see Betty writing it down even as we speak Tom. Kevin has a question. You mentioned early on in the presentation about the evaluation of red rocks. We get a lot of complaints as you know and as the council knows from people that dogs are running loose but we also get complaints from people who view it as a safety issue. Some people have been intimidated and scared frankly by dogs running up to them in red rocks. If we were to find a way to situate a, let's call it a lower cost or perhaps in the upper parking lot at red rocks, minimal cost focusing on that as more or less kind of a pilot to see if it would work much along the line of what you said about Wheeler which was you're hoping that people use the Wheeler, propose Wheeler park instead of going out into the conserved area with their dogs off leash. Would the committee view that positively? In other words, would the committee support us doing that in red rocks? Without promoting it as a dog park just putting up an enclosure? Promoting it for people who are already using red rocks as a dog park. Instead of letting their dogs run wild in the park to keep, to take their dogs naturally to the enclosed area so they don't feel the need to let them. It's a lot. And you're suggesting this to do immediately without the process that the dog park committee has utilized for this? I only brought this to the committee generally but we needed to be focused on preparing for tonight and also to prepare for the transition that starts tomorrow. But my sense is needs your reaction is that I would not want us to have another experience like we had last year and so I would suggest that you refer this issue to the dog park committee and ask them to expedite it which might include a community forum like we had last year because I think there are mixed feelings about it but that it would rather than just the dog park committee sitting in a room and making that decision that it might take an extra couple of weeks but that it might be good to not have it just pop up. So I think that there are mixed feelings about it because there is the whole wildlife issue on one side and there's the we want not dogs not running loose. The public safety issue is real for me. It's huge. So that would be I would refer it to them and ask them if they can put it on me. That would be my purpose. Do you want to comment? Can you please tell the... Kate I'm one of the community members. I would just say there's two sides of the safety coin because if you can find a lot of dogs into just a simple small enclosure you're actually causing just a different safety concern. There are a lot of dogs and a small space is kind of a recipe for disaster. So I think you have to be planful and this is what I've heard from this committee and their research is that you really have to be mindful about space in order to create something that's safe for the public so it's not quite as easy as just throwing up a small enclosure but maybe a good look at it. I was thinking about something quite sizable. There is a good size space up there that they've looked at maybe. But perhaps the expedited process would work because you've got a lot of the things in terms of you did review red rocks. And we had real mixed... I know. Betty did you have a question? This is not speaking for the committee but one of the things that I came across in looking at what different parts of the country you're doing is some of them you just use the word pop-up. And there are communities that do pop-up dog parks so you can kind of try the area to see if it's something people would use or you know and be able to move it at some point. I mean I understand what Kate's saying. Do I agree? You want to be careful. But it's just... I just thought it was kind of an interesting idea to think you could put it in a space see if it attracts people to use it and then be able... it's portable. You know, some of these communities have like a trailer or whatever and they've got the stuff in there the fencing and stuff that can be put up pretty quickly and then taken down if it doesn't seem like a good idea. So anyway that's one of the things we could look at. I see both sides of the coin around you want to create an infrastructure that attracts more and more people to come there just for the dog component or do you want to have infrastructure where the people who are normally coming there with their dogs might reasonably go into that enclosure rather than letting them go and you probably want the latter without the former. Yes. I think we're going to have that problem. That's going to happen at Wheeler as I think Tim mentioned. I think it's going to be an interesting thing to watch what happens up there. Well that's why I think that I specifically really support a standing committee because just building a terrific dog park at Wheeler is not going to answer all the questions. I mean I think there's development that may need to be pressured to provide a safe dog park for their new residents. I know one of Eric Farrell's buildings off Farrell Street. I mean I think he created this dog park because it's really sloped. He couldn't do anything else with it. But it's one of those nice amenities for the people who live in that apartment complex or condos or whatever it is. Maybe we should also be thinking I don't know if that's a dog park working with economic development or I don't know who the Planning Commission but that seems like to me another conversation that's worth having versus only having city dog parks where we manage really trying to. So they aren't a massive people in one place in a traffic jam trying to get in. And I think Kevin we had this conversation the other day about Red Rocks and I think it really is important for people to understand you're talking about an experiment. But there is a good sized space there for a temporary structure to experiment with it. But I think the dog park committee could look at that and come back with some but we could also use consensus to get some input from the broader public about what do you think about a pop-up to test. I dare say that most of the people who are doing Red Rocks right now are not self-realized. I'm concerned that. And I agree with you, consensus would be great and I think some effort at polling people who are actually using it with a leaflet or something. But this generally I think most folks are coming from the adjoining neighborhoods in Burlington. There's an entrance at Red Rocks up by Red Rocks condominium so there's no signage at all. There's no effort at understanding what the limitations of the park are. We've got a meeting with residents from there who say people come to their neighborhood park and use that as the entrance progression. With dogs and banks. So I agree with Kevin. An experiment would be great but we need somehow engaging those folks beyond the city environs is going to be a topic for us to be concerned about. Well we'll have to use something other than consensus but having that feedback would be helpful. One other thing, thinking about Red Rocks I think people are going to go to Wheeler and Ferrell because they want their dogs to enjoy a dog park. It's not because people say oh I think I'd enjoy being at the dog park today. It's because their dogs would enjoy being at the dog park today. Red Rocks people say I think I'd like to take a hike in the woods and go see what's out there and by the way I'm going to take my dog along. The thought process is going to be different. I'm not sure that pop-up park is going to discourage people because I'm suggesting that the dog's parent is the one who's going to enjoy the action versus the dog first if you follow what I'm saying. You can try it but I'm not convinced that's going to work. I don't mean to cut off this discussion but over 20 minutes past our hearing it's okay. So are we ready for the vote? Okay. All in favor of following all your suggestions. Bye. Thank you very much. Thank you. Item 10 is a public hearing and possible action on amendments or repeal of city ordinances. Apologize it was supposed to start at 7.30 but we got involved with dogs again. So we need to go into a public hearing first. We need a motion to go into a public hearing. That's correct. Motion a second. Any discussion? All in favor? So we are opening this public hearing. So you I believe have in your packets the Can we have the conversations out in the hall please? Thank you. I'm Amanda Lafferty I'm the deputy city attorney. You have in your packets what was warned for the public hearing. It's the parking ordinance the date today's date on it as well as the motor vehicle and traffic ordinance for today's date and I have just a single copy of each with some red line if anybody wanted to see just the changes that the council had requested at the first reading as well as some minor changes where I noticed for instance that the word vehicle appeared without the word motor in front of it. So things like that. Does anyone want the red line? I'm mighty. Yes. When he comes back. Are there any questions? Yes. In which one? Parking. So page 3 maybe it's just me. Parking prohibitions 3A the preamble kind of says no person shall stop or park a motor vehicle on the roadway side of any motor vehicle stopped or park at the edge of edge or curb of the street. What are we trying to say there? Basically double parking. Okay. Okay. So it is what I thought that it was double parking. Yes. Okay. Thank you. Can we put in parenthesis double parking so the layman reading this will get it? I mean now I get it but when I first read it so what are we saying here? It's explicit on the roadway side of any motor vehicle that stopped or parked at the edge or curb of the street that means you're next to another car which is parked next to the side which means you're double parking. We have another public hearing to make that change. That's what I'm wondering I don't think it's not changing the meaning. Right. No, I think it's making it clearer to understand. How does that relate to delivery vehicles? UPS, FedEx, etc. who do that all the time? Well I don't know if it's all the time. I have delivery spots at least in Burlington I would hope we do here too. Every time you're in a busy area downtown being prominent. But they have delivery spots but sometimes there's something in the delivery spot or the particular truck bigger than the delivery spot. I just asked the question because it seems to be fairly routine not only here in South Burlington but Burlington and in other communities and certainly in Boston and New York for example I don't think they pay any attention to any of these regulations at all. So if you're idling, are you parked? Because don't they leave their trucks idling? Usually UPS doesn't. I just raised this as a point. It may not make any difference at all. I suppose it is possible that it if there is a police officer or another law enforcement officer who observes it but it is possible that they could get a ticket. Tim did you have another question? No. Are there any other questions on the parking? Alright, Tom did you have any on the other one? Motor vehicle Oh I'm sorry, yes Barb. I'm sorry you've heard enough from me tonight but no I'm here as a citizen. Barber service You better be as good as the dog parts. I'd like to raise an issue about the 12 hour limit for I don't know what the wording is. Trailer. Trailer, etc. Not attached to a motor vehicle. There's a 12 hour limit if you come home at 4 o'clock in the afternoon on a Sunday and unload your vehicle and you can't maybe get it to where it your trailer to where it belongs until sometime the next day. 12 hours is really not enough. I would encourage you to consider no more than I appreciate this that we don't want people parking their boats and their trailers forever on the streets but I think 12 hours is a little unreasonable. I don't understand your situation again. Could you explain that? I have a motor home so it doesn't affect me but it affects people in my neighborhood so that if they go out on the water on a Sunday afternoon and they come home at 7 o'clock and unhook their boat but they need to clean it up and do all of that and they're going to do it the next morning. They've exceeded the 12 hours. You're saying 24 hours seems more fair? I think 24 hours is more fair. What exactly is that? Section 4B. I think it's a great policy, practice, rule, law, ordinance, whatever the right phrase is but I think it needs to be just a little bit longer to be reasonable for people who have these kinds of... That's a valid point. Would that require another public hearing? Thank you. That potentially may because that is but it's not the end of the world by any stretch. I think that one perhaps may. Well is that what the council would like to do? Change it to 24 hours and then change it, adding double parking or 18 hours? Having done it multiple times I think 24 is reasonable. So in my neighborhood there is currently a boat trailer unattached sitting in front of a house near a corner and every time I walk by it I think that's just unsafe because it's low, it's aluminum, it's not very visible in the evening it might have a reflector on it but it doesn't have the mass of a car so a kid riding on a bike could come around a corner fast and catch the edge of that thing and maybe it's too close to the corner. Also it just seems wider than a car. I'm just debating out loud whether 24 hours because that's going to be overnight. That's the idea. To be able to leave it overnight. One night. That's probably fine. I just want to mention that. Not that there have been any accents that I know of where people have been hurt by trailers. When they get on a nice weekend who trailer their boats and they come back at 6 or 7 o'clock one night and they're going to go out again at 10 o'clock the next morning they've got to be able to leave their boat there if they can't get it in their driveway until they're ready to go again the next day. So then they come and park it again and then they go out the next day. I guess they can go around the block and repark it. It's kind of silly. I think 24 hours works very well. We'll just leave it attached. We could do that too. Go out to dinner with the boat on the back. Any other changes? Would you... Since we haven't made any changes on the first one. The motor vehicle and traffic ordinance. Tom, did you have any questions? Okay. Could possibly report that and then just have a public hearing on the other one. Is that right? Or should we just do them together? I don't care. One thing that they are because they both the current ordinance is it's actually called the same thing, the motor vehicle and traffic ordinance, but it includes parking and that we're separating them and So we have two changes we'd like to make and we'll make them. 24 hours in 4...4 is the opening paragraph and then the parenthetical of double parking in 3A. We really need another public hearing to do those two things? Is there anyone in the public here who wanted to comment on this? It didn't draw a lot of people. So I don't think it will next time. So I think we're fine. So we could have that So do we have to come out of the public hearing and then do that? So I'm going to come out of the public hearing? All in favor? Aye. And then we just have to continue this? We need to set another public hearing. Can we do that for the 17? Remember if we have to go back to first reading Let's see if I brought that. So that's what I I don't know if I brought the tartar with me. Thanks Tim. Why don't we go check on that? You've closed the public hearing so I can You can come back in a few minutes. Yes. Okay. I'll do that. Is that acceptable? All right. Number 11 Design issues and developments related to 180 Markot Street, Rick Markot Central School parking lot and the stormwater project. Typo in there. 180 Markot Street. Oh. I read it as Markot Street. Bingo. Renamed the street. I like it. Okay. Discussion of the council. Well I attended this school board meeting and they did agree that there was a possible resolution to the stormwater and with it they included a number of different amendments to clarify their positions on various issues that were not in the original MOU. I think the city is discussing those and going through those to understand them better. My understanding is from Elizabeth Fitzgerald's the chair, the school board's comments that those items were as much a put on a formal piece of paper, I guess, some of their concerns and that they could be negotiated and discussed, but that it would not affect their willingness to sign the permits once the design for they could agree in concept to the stormwater design and then when the design is fully what's the right word, design 100% completion design then both sides, we'd have to agree that we could build that and they would agree that yes you can build it and then the permits would be signed and we could go forward. And the other items for the amendments could be MOU. Pardon me? Yes. Will that require a rebuild? They didn't seem to think it would. These were just really clarifications that allowed them, I think, to point to these are safety issues that we feel are really important that should have been included for one. In their motion they stated that they would negotiate the amendments after the fact of signing the permits once the stormwater design was 100% complete so they agreed that they would sign the necessary documents to proceed even if those amendments hadn't been completely negotiated, right? That's what the motion was. Yep, that was the motion. So that's kind of the update. Back and forth, there clearly are some differences of opinion on different things but I think even their engineer could agree to the extent you can without having done all of the engineering design say yes, I think this is a workable solution. I believe their engineer stated that she was relatively confident that this would was a design that would work even though much of it is new technology. New technology to Vermont, but utilized in other parts of the country. One being the Chesapeake Bay area in areas that had very similar high water and challenges like that piece of property and they have worked there. They've been successful and they haven't failed. Two things, at some point I don't know how you'd want to do this Kevin, but on their list that was in the other paper. I'd love a breakdown of what the costs are and what the city's thoughts are on each of those things if we've already budgeted for them so I don't know how that's going to move forward and if that needs to be an executive session or otherwise. The other one is just scheduling. That ripping that parking lot up during the school year now to do all this work or how is that going to... Our contractors are looking at how to schedule the project to avoid that. We want to minimize impact obviously on the parking lot. It's possible that we'll be able to schedule construction so that all that work starts next summer. Of course we all wanted it to start this summer. That's not going to happen now. The road, we would probably have to rough a road in to be able to access their parking lot so that we can begin on our building. The current road runs right through the middle of our building. I'm not going to speak for all the parents of Rick Markov, but that's music to my ears and I think to many of their ears and concerns if you're looking to schedule the digging up of that parking lot next summer. We're going to see if we can do that. Well I want to state for the record that's always been our intention. The conversations we have always had is how do we minimize the impact on the school so that we're not constructing things while that directly impact them while school is in session. And that continues to be I think our goal. I think it's been really compounded with the concerns that have been raised of Layton Market Street hearing that we're looking to do that work next summer. I think it is meaningful. Well, yeah. Yes, go ahead. In lieu of the design where the water will be infiltrated underground I looked at the design and the product that was sold by that company called Tech. I mean that's great. Has any work been done to gauge what the relative water table height is? Only to the extent that the engineers who have all the soil samples have looked at those issues and determined that this particular proprietary system will work. As Helen noted it's worked in other places and so they have some performance data. But they've determined our engineers and I think now Amy also their engineer determined to work there. So I think that is very good news. One last thing I'd also say is just as much as we can speak to the safety concerns so that there might be for this new underground thing people think of the movie It with the clown in the storm gutter or the baby deers that get stuck. So as much as we can speak to those safety things as to how this will prevent anything and each small child from falling into it that's also going to be important. I'm not trying to scare people what I'm saying is underground storage vaults as much as we can speak to that in our communications and planning is important to know that it's a very safe solution. If you look at the website that's this where they talked about the product and the design it's very straightforward. They build a large excavated area and put in hemispherical piping down with the open side down in rows and that becomes like a leech field and it's fed by the water collected by some collection cistern and it's fed underground. And then it's covered up with gravel and dirt and gravel and dirt whatever and so it's you're standing on dirt at the top and then you pay it over and you wouldn't even know there's a thing underneath it. So and apparently out here right is what they do for a store in the city hall. No vaults, no empty cavernous area. No, no, it's great. I mean there would be manhole cover I guess at grave level which would be entrance into the large concrete bunker that would be accepting the water from the storm drains right but that's a manhole cover that you have anywhere. So our whole back parking lot has these types of massive storm water structures. Enormous pipes that are probably 6 feet in dinameter at least covered, paved, safe. It's a thermoplastic pipe cut in half right that they hit the rest of them like this and then they just cover the whole thing. I think it's a paper confidently report that it's extremely safe design without any concerns about cavernous vaults where kids could get stuck in it. It could be very valuable to the project's success. Well I think that's the word too. That kind of public communication is really important coming from both the school board assuring their personnel and parents that this is very, very safe and it's the city making the same statements. I mean I think both entities, the public would be well served if both entities were saying the same thing. I only asked because I didn't know. I read up on the design. So maybe sharing those kinds of... The pictures that I found on the web I can share them with you but I'm not public works guy so maybe it should be the engineers that have designed it. Then I think we can share it with the public and provide that assurance for safety and then we can continue with some of the other designs and safety records. I think that's what has to happen in a timely way and it would be wonderful if we were working together towards that and not at odds. I certainly got the sense from Elizabeth that they're ready to work with us on this project. Okay answer for us going back to item 10 briefly. So the... You only have to have another public hearing but I don't think you were proposing June 17th that doesn't leave enough time for the publishing of the warning. So either the first meeting in July or which is I believe actually July 1st or two weeks after that July 15th. Well why don't we do it July 1st? Let's get her done. That sounds... I know two of you won't be here but do you have a problem with that? I'll even move that we schedule a public hearing even though... On amendments or appeal of city ordinances, motor vehicle and traffic ordinance and the parking ordinance for Monday, July 1st at 7.30. Second. Any further discussion? All in favor? Aye. Okay thank you very much. Thank you. All right moving on to what the audience is waiting for. Committee's boards can commission applicant interviews. We're not too far behind are we? That's good. Let me get to the first one. There's one that was not in your packet. Mr. Langdon. Yeah we have. And you have the hard copy of his application. Alrighty. So Kyle Hallby. Is he here? No. Did he get word? Yep. So everyone on the short page, not the long one, the short page has been, was notified and scheduled in for tonight. And do we have any others for the Art Public Art? They need just one and we have two. Oh the seven and Kyle. Well, okay. We'll move on to number two then. Duncan Murdock and is Duncan here? Oh hi, yeah. There you are. And Duncan is currently on the Natural Resources Committee. Yeah. And you are applying to continue. Yes. Great. And I know you're well received by the committee. Oh good. Thank you. Does anyone have any questions? How many years have you served so far? Less than a year. Less than a year? Yeah. Oh okay. Oh was it a one year term? He was filling in for somebody. I can't remember someone resigned or... Red I came in. I don't remember. Always great when people want to continue so I'm glad to see it. Thank you for wanting to continue. How has it been your first year experience Duncan? Good. Yeah, there's a lot of work to do and it's been, we've been busy and I feel like I feel like the committee has been it's getting more involved and I'm glad to help get things, get us more involved in the ongoings of the city and to be more of a supportive role for the DRB especially a resource for us to go out and get on the ground and go to sites and look at the natural resources firsthand. So that's something that the committee has identified as a goal, an immediate action plan is to really make that connection with the DRB and do those onsite reviews. Are there other things like that that we should be aware of? Really, we're just trying to find a streamline approach for when a development proposal comes up that we're notified as early as possible so that we can provide recommendations and we can go to those sites and that set up pretty well goes to Ashley and then it goes to me and then I bring it to the attention for the committee and then we go out and we check it out. So that timing seems to work well with the DRB? Yeah, so far. I mean it's pretty new. We came before the DRB and presented this kind of checklist or this kind of process and they're all for it. So it's in development right now but it's started. She's a pilot. Yeah. That's great. I had one of the members mention to me at a different meeting that they were very happy with the input that the various committees were giving to the DRB. They thought it was very helpful to them and really made their job easier. It was important to have those connections. Yeah, that's what we want to do. We have on the committee people who have some various levels of expertise in the natural world so we want to support as much as possible. And there's three three-year terms and one two-year term. Do you have a preference for a two-year or a three-year term? Probably should go three. I mean I can try three. Yeah, let's do three. I'll go for the three-year term. You don't care. Either one. Either one. Okay. Any other questions? Great. Well thank you very much for your service and it is. It's wonderful to have someone want to re-up because it's a lot of work. And I think your job and your background really add to provide some good information and expertise to the committee. So thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. All right. It's also on our Open Space IZ committee. Just wanted to point that out. Thank you. All right, thank you. Joy Dubin Grossman. And Joy, you are currently on the Housing Trust Fund committee. Yes? I am. I think I have fallen off though because I think it was actually a year, maybe a year overdue. Oh, I think so. Okay. So you've served for the past three years. You've met only, oh this is the trust fund. Yes. Well they don't need all that. We don't need all that. Because we have to have money to spend. And then once it's spent, there's I guess we can do. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well what's been the best part of that exercise for you? I enjoy watching. Working as a group and watching some housing go in is pretty exciting. And I look forward to doing more of that. Thoughts open. A three-year term and a two-year term. You've got three years on her application. Oh, did she do that? Yes, you did. But you can certainly correct it if you want to. No, three, it's fine. Do you have any questions for us? Just send you more money. That would be nice. No, I don't think so. None at this point. It's more of a decisional body. It's not necessarily something that you have a project that you're working on. Exactly. But it's good to Public Art Review Committee. It's good to have a group of people that are committed to it. So I've enjoyed it. Thank you for your service. We all think affordable housing is really important. So do I. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Donna Kinville. She's still here? She did stay for a while. Yeah. Well that's the charter committee. I'm not about to throw her off. We don't have more applicants than our positions. I didn't think we were interviewing or requiring an interview of incumbents. Yeah. So we need two people in the charter and we only have one who's applied, right? Donna might still be here. Tom's checking. Oh, okay. Well, she wrote a nice letter. Okay. Well, while we're waiting, won't we hear from Catherine Lucas who is interested in conscious hanging out with the dog park committee being a member? I just want to note, Larry Cufferman is here. He's not on our list and not in our packet, but I think he might be here expecting to interview. But I don't have him on tonight. For the Yeah, affordable housing. Right. And housing trust fund. And we kind of had I thought we sort of did have some idea that if they were incumbents, unless they really messed up, we'd have them continue. Okay. Well, we might as well have him after. Okay. Well, why don't we listen to you after Catherine and you won't have to come back another night. Okay. So Catherine. Kate. Okay. Excuse me. You had some experience with the dog park. You want to continue? Yeah. What really was exciting for you? Oh, it's a great group. And I am one of those people that have had to drive 20, 25 minutes to my dog play. And it's exciting to hear that we might be doing something more local. I live on Heinsberg Road, so having something at Wheeler would be incredible. And I have ops as a background in project management. So if I can help. It sounds great. I'd love to. Yeah. Oh, go ahead. How many meetings did you attend of the dog park committee? Nice since October. Oh, five? Five or six? Five or six. Yeah. Yeah. You're very familiar. Yeah. Yeah. It was a good learning experience. I don't know if I would be able to go into it cold, but seeing them in action was helpful. Well, thank you very much. No problem. Muriel Moore. Oh, why don't we do Larry? Do you want to hustle on up, Larry? Have him identify himself first. Yes. Larry Kupferman. Housing Trust Fund. I've served as a chair for the past since it was started. And as you said, we don't meet very often. It really depends on a developer, a development coming through to staff with affordable housing components to their development to seek additional funding. And I think the funding is restricted to nonprofits. So to the degree that the Land, the Community Housing Trust and the Senior Center were both nonprofits and benefited from the City dollars by basically being the keystone of their proposals. Having local community money involved is a big, big step for those developers in the whole funding scheme. $25,000 or $50,000 seems like a small amount, but it's sort of the linchpin for them to show the community support for their project and really gather the monies that take the funds. Yeah, it means a lot to the state. It really does. Right. So I'm very willing to continue. A meeting or two a year is great if that happens. I'm hoping that the $50,000 is still in the budget. I understand there's been some constraints this year around roads, but that's good. That's a good idea. And we have, I guess, two or three year term. Whatever you think is, is two years left? That would be great. It's two year remaining. Did somebody step off? Two year remaining? I don't know what that means. Well, Joy's term ended last year and she's just... Oh, okay. So you worked unappointed. I'm not sure we actually had a meeting. We may have had a meeting. We don't pay them. Pardon me? We don't pay them. No, I meant the money they grant. I think the buildings are built. The buildings are built. Okay, good. So you'll finish out your term and you'll have a... So I think my term is up. I had a three year term. So the two years fine and we'll try to remember the terms. Well, that's really our job. I thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Now we'll go to Muriel Moore who is also interested in the dog park. Yeah. I think I last met with a lot of you over Baycrest Park because my husband and I were very active supporters of Baycrest Park. So now I'm turning my attention to dog parks. And looking forward to participating, I hope with your approval. You've attended a number of the meetings as well. Yes. Yes. I probably started attending... I'm trying to remember maybe end of April, something like that. So I have attended a few. I did attend the last public forum. Actually, I've been to both public forums. And have attended some other meetings. Yes. Sorry, I don't remember just exactly how many. It's okay. It's a wonderful way to determine whether you want to apply for a committee or commission to get a sense of what they do and who they are and if you fit in. Or have a good voice for... I think that's really good. And I have been very impressed with all of the work this committee has done. 15 meetings since last October is a lot. They've been meeting at least twice a month. You know, so I mean, I think that is... to me has been very significant of the commitment the committee has made. And I felt that's a committee I'd like to participate on. Somebody who's really engaged. Very much like you. I think we did pass all the recommendations. Yes. So we'll be busy coming up. But I think it's the fact that you got engaged with the park is really significant because this is really a hands-on committee where you have to be in touch with the public. Right. Yes. Yes. So you're not just doing theoretical thinking. You are really, really on the ground and doing that outreach. So I'm glad that you... Yes. Yes. So I think that's going to be just exciting to continue all of that work. Well, there's lots more to do. So I'm glad to be staying on. Thank you. Well, sorry I missed your discussion, but it's not like you and I don't know each other, so I think we're good. Thank you. That's fine. That's fine. Oh gosh, another UVM-er. Yes. Exactly. Well, it's the community, isn't it? Molly, Bezio, Bezio? Bezio. Bezio. Sorry. Yeah, that's fine. Okay, another dog park person. And you have been attending the meetings. Yeah. I think since February so I think I have seven or eight meetings I've lost count. Time commitment and... You meeting twice a month, I think... We want you to work on red rocks and get this idea discussed and... What drew you to the committee? Well, I have a dog. I probably always have a dog and she would go to the town next door. I live in San Francisco, so I go to Shelburne, which is closest to my house, and it's nice to have something nearby. I know we have had the greatest history with dog parks, or at least staying in locations for long periods of time, so it's something I wanted to contribute to and make sure it's successful. It's not just here and now, it's something that's sustainable for the community in the future, since when you put your money towards an investment, I mean, it's not an expensive by any means. I know $55,000 may not sound like a lot to some, but it's still a substantial investment you want it to be sustainable in there for the long term, so that's really why I want this interested, because I think initially there's some talk about having the dog park around the airport, which was a concern of mine. And how would Shelburne put up a sign asking you for a donation to use their park? Would you open up your wallet and give them... I'm a member. So they have the membership where you can contribute, I think it's like $20 a year or an annual, you can even do a lifetime membership for $100, where you just put it in their mailbox and you go there, so that's how I moved around it, since I am not a resident, I felt comfortable by donating money and contributing to the cost of maintenance. Were there other perks for this membership, other than you were just visiting the park? Well, so maybe a sign like that would be helpful. Yeah. Together with the people to help contribute to the maintenance. Cool. Alright, well thank you very much. Yeah, thank you. Thanks. Nicholas Anderson. This is Bicycle and Pedestrian Committee. I can't think of anyone more suited for this committee, so I'm glad you're on it. Just one question about the dog park committee. I think we had no terms because we knew that Barb was just going to be a short term, but I think we should go back to the original charge which perhaps we amended, but there were terms, don't you think? Yeah, I think it's always good to have terms. Yeah. So how do you want to do that? You want... Yes. I think Maggie has a record of the terms. Okay. That would be great if you could get back with us so that, because I think that is important for people to know what the commitment is and when they need to either move on or apply again. Okay. Thank you very much. Thanks. Okay, so Nicholas, oh Nick, you always go by Nick. Nick Bikes all year long. He's phenomenal. Bikes with children too. You understand what we need in our roadways, so I can't think of a better person to serve on the bike and ped committee. Yeah, I mean that's my mission. When my job at home, wherever it is, is get more people on bikes. Get more kids on bikes. Be healthy. And that's both walking and biking. And I've moonlighted hanging out in the public section of the committee for too many months, I think, that I should step up and actually... Oh, so you've been attending the meetings. Yeah. Hopefully you've talked. Way too much. They're like, come join us at the table. Great. Well, again, that's wonderful. We need five. They have seven total applicants. Sign of a healthy committee. And do you have any preferences? A three-year term, a two-year term remaining, and a one-year remaining? No. Take what I'm giving. One of your fans in the back was saying... One year I'll just have to come back and hang out. Okay. Well, thank you so much. Kathy Frank, historian of the group, right? Historical perspective or whatever. Yeah, maybe. That depends on how you mean it. I'm the oldest one in the committee. You've been interested in active for a long time. Yes. You did a great job with Penny for Paths, and now you're working on committing that to different projects. Yeah, it's very exciting actually, trying to see where to find the money, the matching money, that sort of thing, to get things going. But we're making progress, I think, slowly, but it's active. And the other thing that we're doing, I'm the person that goes to the DRB meetings to make sure we stay on top of that. And Marla's been very helpful in telling me those meetings that she thinks I ought to go to, but I checked the agenda anyway, just to make sure. But I think that's how you get things changed or have that cross pollination of ideas. And in sending people to us at times too, if we're not at the meeting itself, or even if we are. So that's been very helpful. What's been accomplished so far? Did the fence go up on Torset Street? Extra fencing? That hasn't happened yet? I don't think that's happened yet. There are bollards. Yeah, but they're just the ones that usually go up. There's a section where they don't go up, and that's where the cars pull out. Has anything happened yet? I haven't seen anything happen on that regard. One of the delays we have is with the Department of Public Works. There are lines that need to be put down in the spring. Either they don't get done or they get done too late. Just stuff like that. And I know they have a lot to do as I drive over Spear Street in those potholes every day. And you can't paint in the rain? Pardon? And you can't paint in the rain? No, you can't. It's been a hard season. But those are some of the things we want to see get done right away and are not that expensive. They're just maintenance stuff. So that and crosswalks, which shouldn't be too expensive. But we're just putting in a grant reputing in a grant for the Dorset Street gap, which is that gap between Old Cross Road and Sadie Lane. Once that's in, Dorset Street goes from Williston Road all the way down to Dorset Farms. And then with the connection coming over from South Village this year, that's just going to make an enormous network. So we've got to get the money because that one's expensive. Does the committee need some people well versed in grant writing? Or do you have expertise? It's just a matter of... We have that expertise on the staff. And we've been working with Ashley lately to get that in. And she's asked various ones of us to do, to review or just make suggestions for it. I think there's a good connection there. I think the committee has got a great variety of skills on it that all complement each other for the most part. Well, again, thank you for your long effort. It's worth it. Well, I mean, and I think, you know, we have a lot of bike paths to show for it and more to be built. Well, there's underwood yet to get the path through there. That's a big one. I too. I want to thank you, Kathy. Yeah. Thank you. We have Lauren Marie Wedham, Parks and Rec or Recreation and Parks, as well as the bike and pit. Is that right? I mean, you put Rec and Parks first. So is that your first choice? It is my first choice by the way. All right. So you're kind of new to the community, but you said Recreation and Parks is your first choice? Yes. Yes. Okay. We have five. James Langdon was added. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So have you been to any of the committees? Meetings? I have not, no. I'm sorry? You know when they meet? Yes. Yes. And I had some experience just going to meetings when I lived on Cape Cod, particularly for bike issues and the bike path and extending the bike path and had previously gone to some of the public forums and meetings when I was a resident of Shelburne previously. I moved back to Vermont. Oh, okay. So you're familiar with general thoughts on community pools? I do actually. I do. But I think from my perspective, yes. From my perspective, I am a physiotherapist and my specialties in geriatrics. And so my job is to basically sell movement to people. And I live in a community where I've heard a lot of people give me feedback about what's available and what's not available, particularly for adults that maybe don't want to do pickleball. Maybe they want to be involved in something else. Maybe they want to find other activities that are equally as I've read about the plans for the expansion of opportunities with community center. I think it was something that was particularly appealing to me, how I might contribute. Not only are I a bold community. I think it's a thriving community. Yes, yes. No, I meant our age. Demographic. Demographically, yes. Older. So your geriatric background would well serve this community. Well, it's not something you see advocated as openly as you would perhaps children's programming, adolescence, and young adults. I mean, there's such a thriving community of young adult programs particularly that are active in the Burlington and greater Burlington area. And that would just be really neat to see something with that energy for this demographic, for an older demographic. So you have the time with your job and I do. I do. I'd make the time. No, I just said fantastic. Okay, thank you very much. We appreciate your interest. Sean Goddard. Sean, you're looking for the bike and head. Yes. Correct. Is she a two year term or one year term? I'm in the middle, about a year and a half into a two year term so it's up in December, I think. Yeah, we have again here, one year remaining, two year remaining. So that was one of my questions. You see you're the two year remaining? So I started a year and a half ago and it was a two year term when I started so I think it's up at the end of this year. So what happens in that case? So I started in December so maybe I was out of sequence so maybe that's it. We needed people. We changed you flexible and said we'll appoint people out of sequence and not wait until now. Makes sense. So I think we'll start you on a full term. Excellent. You're interested in the two year term? Whatever. I plan on trying to serve on the committee as long as I can so it's part of biking and having a bikeable and walkable city is kind of near and dear to my heart. Thanks. Bike to work all the time? Mostly in the three seasons. I'm not as hardcore as now. They keep trying to talk me into winter riding. But he's close to zero carbon. I know have you downloaded consensus? I actually did it last week but the app wasn't working. It wasn't working. So I just redownloaded it tonight while I was sitting here. So answered the questions. Looking forward to seeing how it works. It looks great. There's lots of questions the bike and pet committee can ask. Super. I would think. Any other comments or thoughts? Don't use the app while you're biking. Don't use your app. Alright. Thank you. I see what I'm doing. Thank you. Who is the two year returning then? Do you know, Kathy? We'll just figure that out. We'll have to look it up. Alright. Jennifer Coakman. A new face. So I guess I'm applying for my fifth term. I've seen a lot of changes when I started out. Tom was the director of Recreation Parks Department and I think I'm on my fifth director right now. I've seen a lot of changes in the committee. We over the years we developed more of a sense of what we wanted to be doing and how we were going to do it and how we were going to interact with other city committees and I think we made good feedback to you guys and I still look forward to seeing a Recreation facility and veterans and the other things that were really on the priority list when Tom was director. We said we don't have enough playing fields to be able to give them a rest so that we can repair them and we don't have an indoor Rec facility and we don't have enough space for programs. We can't program enough for the community because we have to go to the schools when they're not doing something else and we need upgrades in our existing parks and so on. Some of these things I think are really good works in progress. I think the city has come a long way in working on some of these things thanks to a lot of work from other committees and you guys and our city management and so I'm not ready to give up on seeing some of these things carried forward so that's why I'm reapplying. I have in the city. It's interesting that one committee can interact has some kind of connection to so many other kinds of interests in the city and I look through the notes that Holly wrote up on Coralie's presentation the other night and she was talking about the work plan and I remember spending a good solid Saturday afternoon with Maggie going over the comprehensive plan and we went through and there were so many places where recreation and parks intersected with all of these other concerns that were going on so our report ended up being like five pages and we did a condensed one page but you know it's I think we have a good committee right now and I'm looking forward to new members and working with all of you again. Any questions? No thanks Jennifer for your never ending enthusiasm for absolutely everything that has to do with recreation in the community and with a little luck we'll find a way to come up with 13 million bucks and build a rec yes and thank you Dave for stepping up to that at Maggie's invitation I appreciate that thank you 13 is the bottom line 15 I should say to 15 okay now Greg Lowe has so now we have who is true? Gregory Lowe it's on the small sheet and so Jackie Druin how do you pronounce that? Druin do you like to be called Jackie or Jacqueline? both is fine so you're interested in both recreation and parks or the economic planning have you what? I really was just interested in being part or like just serving on any committee and so I have young kids so parks and recs is really interesting to me my son my oldest he loves I can't remember the name of the park but it's like we call it the nature park I don't know what it is. City center? It's that way I guess it's just like it's where all the logs are it used to be Dumont park and now it's City center park yeah and so they're very natural and yeah so he really he really likes that he likes Red Rock park a lot and so it keeps them yeah so their treat after school as they get someone gets to pick a park so I really yeah so I like that I've always been interested in the economic development of communities and cities I we've my husband and I we've lived in Vermont in three different cities in ten years so in September we'll be here for ten years and so it was really just in the past year so that we've actually been able to we we bought our house about two years ago and now we're really working on becoming part of the community our son's oldest is going to start at Orchard in the fall and I just have more time so I really just wanted to get involved somehow just like start and make this sort of like a long term thing so just to see which committee which committee I would be able to be most of use to so I have I worked I work at the University of Vermont so I was on staff council for a couple of years I worked on a couple of subcommittees there I work with a lot I've heard before I heard memorandums of understanding I do in my current job I look at a lot of memorandums of understanding and affiliation agreements so I love budget stuff I love looking at numbers and I also like doing a lot of research to see what other communities are doing and just seeing what ideas we can pull from different communities I lived in a lot of different areas I lived in Japan I lived in Amsterdam and you know the talk about everyone was talking about the bike King committee I just love the fact that it's like on the logo like when you look back there you just see someone cycling so it would be great to see more of that happening in this community so wherever I could help we do have an opening for economic development and you're the only applicant they meet on the last Thursday they meet the 4th Monday 4th Monday at the month of 530 so child care isn't a problem for that you'll figure it out my husband's also like switching jobs so he's going to be more available and so we sort of like it was part of the plan and it's really easy to get babysitters that's sort of like my fun thing you're losing sanity with your background it sounds like you're a really good match for the economic development committee if you'd be willing to try that well it sounds like you're good at parks and rec as well there's only 3 openings and we have 4 people applying I'm flexible at that I think anything would be interesting cool that's a new committee so you're going to get in at the ground floor we just created it last year so I don't know how many meetings they've had but not too many maybe 6 they're just really starting out do you have any questions for us? I like how you can look at the minute so easily online I don't know if you're at the websites really friendly mobile friendly so I enjoy that so I don't know if that was new I just sort of noticed that that's the first time I've heard a compliment on the website I like it though well that's great so well cool alright well thank you very much for your interest yeah that is a great way to get involved in a community and give back and learn your talents well thank you oh James Langdon I'm sorry Langdon sorry pardon me so let's see I haven't read this yet I've developed a review board in Parks and Rec Rec and Parks should be alphabetical to not be confused with the TV show this will be the third lawyer on the DRB is that a need for a warning? when the second lawyer was interviewing two years ago I was like there's already one lawyer on there now we're going to have two lawyers right so they would just sit there and argue with each other about precedent you know not a lot arguing oh that's true so you're interested in the DRB what do you think you'll bring to the DRB I think I'll bring experience in land use law and experience in working with deliberative bodies and also just a sense of sort of clarity and levelheadedness I tend not to argue let my opinions be known but always opening to hearing the other side the DRB it's really applying a set of rules to a project and so I think I'm my skills I think I would be skilled in that position so that's why I put that first have you ever served on other boards or commissions I have not I tried to last year I did not here in South Burlington but did not get one but I was lived in it's my third year here in South Burlington I was lived for eight years in Burlington I was on the steering commission of Ward 1's NPA right yeah neighborhood planning assembly NPA and then I served on several more short term commissions so I was on the Burlington's redistricting committee and I think that was 2013 and also several years on their CDBG grant application committee which is a pretty intensive process that they did every year and I think I did that for three years and I'm also on the board of local motion and have that for four years so I haven't missed a meeting there so I definitely would sign up and be dedicated to realizing that the DRB in particular is a time commitment exactly. This is my big question so it has a large time commitment to it but you're familiar with that and it sounds like you're right no I understand yeah I mean I haven't I know a question before I haven't actually been to a meeting I mean I have read every minute since I've lived in South Burlington just to get sort of involved in the committee I mean I think that's a big part of living here I'd really like to serve on a government committee I'm kind of politics nerd but in a really nonpartisan way but just like I mean I think that's important it would mean a lot to me same with the I mean whether it was DRB or the recreation parks that's a big part I have two young kids and that's a big part of our life and I think South Burlington has a good parks program and I think it really could be great so either way but I understand that DRB is especially lately it seems like it's a really big time commitment. You sound emily qualified for the DRB and there is only a one-year seat, a three-year seat and a four-year seat. Would the one year remaining be okay to you to do it for a year? Yeah I wouldn't no I would yeah any of those yeah one or three or four. One last follow-up question so you said the you're on the Burlington Redistricting Committee. We have an opening on our City Charter Committee which I think would love your expertise too and I think that is a topic well worth considering not redistricting so to speak but looking at council make-up composition representation. Yeah that was a really eye-opening experience so I was after the census and the City Council couldn't come to a decision and so tried to open it up to and then it got a little political but I would actually yes. Sue and I are old neighbors actually in Burlington. Always issues but yeah it was you know that was sort of census track by census track and really trying to create the City Council and the number of seats and the neighborhoods representations are yeah definitely understand the push and pull with neighborhoods. Was that a yes for the City Charter Committee? Yeah we consider I mean that yeah that is definitely I mean up my alley as far as reviewing. I'm happy with the DRB to be honest. Yeah I don't know if it would be a both but I didn't even look I think that's as needed position right. Any other questions or thoughts? Do you have any questions for us? I guess timing there would be in July or late June would be one. I think you start July one. But you would be welcome you could sit in on any of the meetings prior to that. Tomorrow. Just to get you know today. If you wanted you could go to the clerk's show website and actually download their agenda items. Yeah I know I've been I've been yeah I've been. Has he been reading the minutes? Yeah I know the minutes for tomorrow but I know what was referred to the next meeting. There's nothing controversial going on. That's right right I know it's all 100% agreement. Well thank you very much I'm glad you persisted with me too for something I mean. Another happy website user you know two in one night. It's pretty remarkable. Yeah okay thank you very much right why don't we just take a very brief break for Sue and come back and make decisions on these Helen. Have we heard from everyone? No not yet. We've got at least another at least another night I think of interviews. So another night. Which would be a 17. Maybe we should meet her. Do you want to be notified for a minute? Do you want to be notified? I have to kill that thing. Do you want to really press the next meeting and get all the interviews done? That'd be great that'd be like a record. Let's go for a record. Getting the appointments done at the next meeting. Well there's only a couple where there are. There's no real reason why not right? So people might want to think about that before the next meeting. Right now there's not a lot on that agenda. There's nothing wrong with that for a change. Yes sir. Right? Yes councilman. What do we got? What's? Hey you know we're on that. Let's get commuter center moving and then we can worry about everything else. I am with you on that. You know I printed off. Do you have a chance? I guess. Steering to me? Maybe. And I was gone. I don't know how that shoe was in there. I don't know. But I had minutes. Then it went to you know I was trying to process this quickly. I sent him to Elizabeth. She was away. I don't know who worked on them. They sent back this thing that's I don't know. It's kind of like they aren't minutes. It is like I don't know. Magically appeared. Paul's always the one that stays to the late night session of city council. What are we going to do here? To call back and order the south city council meeting of Monday, June 3rd 2019 and we are going to do a 15 review and possible approval of the council comments related to the adoption by the Burlington International Airport of a new noise compatibility program and NCP. And Paul Connors is going to take us through his letter. Thanks everybody. Paul Connors director of planning and zoning. So what you have in front of you is a draft of an input letter on the noise compatibility plan. If you remember the airport had started updating its noise compatibility plan a little maybe about a year and a half ago. The noise compatibility plan is the companion document to the noise exposure maps. It is the document that lays out how mitigation is to take place and therefore how mitigation funds are to be sought from the FAAA by the airport. It's got sort of an interesting timing in that it is the plan regardless of what the maps are. So the reason that it's been a year and a half was that the city of south Burlington, the city of Winooski, some of our other partners asked that the noise exposure maps be updated prior to completing the noise exposure plan because whenever the noise exposure plan is, it's in effect until it's updated. So we are currently operating under the 2008 noise compatibility plan and therefore the official guidance as far as the FAAA is concerned is that the entire area that's in 65 decibels under the 2015 maps sorry the 2017 maps and then the 2019 maps that came out last week would be the acquisition program. That's clearly not been the intent of the city of south Burlington or the airport but that's the legacy of the current plan. So where we are in the process now is the noise exposure map drafts came out last week as you all know and we've been invited to a noise mobility technical advisory committee meeting at the end of June. That is likely the last meeting of that group. We have not yet seen a draft plan. We've seen components of it but the components that we've seen have largely been either status reports in the last plan of various mitigation measures like the taxiway improvements, flight rearrangements, tracking of flights, that kind of thing. And then a lot of educational pieces about what these various programs are, sound insulation, purchase assurance, sales assistance, all those kinds of things. Our recommendation from staff as well as when we met as the, you're appointed team to the technical advisory committee, Kevin myself, George Maley and Carmen Sargent had been let's make sure that we're in front of this and not just providing to the final draft that you've received in front of you. So what is recommended here is that if you're so inclined to provide a letter before they've prepared their final draft of here's where the city's positions are. What's in here very, in broad brushes is the result of a lot of what we've been hearing from yourselves, from the neighborhood through the Chamber of the Neighborhood Airport Planning Committee from the survey that Vince Balduk and his class did last fall where 80% of voters in that district, the Chamberlain district, preferred to have programs that move towards insulation of homes rather than removal of homes. And broadly speaking as I outline in the letter there's two broad buckets acquire and remove the homes and keep the homes and then within the keep the homes there's again two buckets those which use funds to reinvest in the housing stock and those which are more one-time payments. There are times when most of them become applicable and that's where this letter sort of doesn't if then down through various different applicability but the letter based on sort of group based on council based on survey based on what we've been hearing from the neighborhood really pushes towards retaining the housing stock. So that's my sort of broad brush of what you have in front of you. I'm happy to discuss any of that. This is obviously your letter so don't let us put words in your mouth. The letter was great. I think it's really important. I have a couple. It's really important to clarify the in my opinion the navigation easement recommendations. I mean those are really central to me. You have questions? Yeah. Are George Mealy and Carmen Sargent still participating in these TAC meetings? We haven't had a TAC meeting since October I would guess I saw Carmen last week and chatted with her a little bit I think that George has moved out of town. That was my understanding. The last I'd heard was he was a few weeks from moving out of town that I've not heard from since the wedding. Do we need to replace him on that body? I thought it was heard it was being dissolved. Oh it's going to be dissolved. I think the last meeting well but there still will be a sound advisory committee which is an ongoing entity so I would certainly recommend we haven't heard from the airport how they want to constitute it but I would if the council is so inclined I think having a second person from the neighborhood to be there as a citizen that isn't just a staff person isn't an elected official speaks strongly and well to the City of South Brunson's commitment to issues around the airport. I think it was very valuable to have both of them there and would urge to continue to have that. Maybe I'll talk to Carmen and ask if she's still willing to serve in that function and maybe brainstorm to find someone who could step up. I do have a couple of questions. Yes please go ahead. The first question has to do with a questionnaire that we put out as a body that showed sound barriers as one of the preferred mitigation techniques also. I personally would like to see that again just somewhere mentioned that the public is also in favor of sound barriers that would protect the remaining residents in the neighborhood from ground noise. So understanding that I'm not the technical expert in the subject but as the consultants came in and spoke with the technical advisory committee about the role of sound barriers they showed it as being a little bit of a catch-22 for us because in order for the barriers to be eligible to be funded they have to show that they have provided some kind of sound, noise benefit to the neighborhood behind them. If they do meet that threshold and the barrier is built then any home that has been improved is no longer eligible for any mitigation. So it becomes an either or of either a wall or insulation towards the homes and that was a less than ideal catch-22 and that's where this sort of recommendation of to move towards the home insulation that folks can really feel like they're individuals. I thought they had applied for money for a barrier. The last wall. That's not for homes though, that's just for airport parkway. Oh right. Very, very small. It's very specific to as a plane turns around to not having dust. Oh but you were talking about, I'm sorry. It's not a long extensive barrier. So it certainly could be in there. I think that what we would, what would be beneficial to come from South Burlington would be where does it fit in the priority area so that we're giving as clear guidance about the rankings as possible. Because I really liked what you had to say about being able, let me see where that is. Right. So that's page three, navigation easement recommendations. Yeah and I wish we would also include the school somehow in this language even though we're not the school board. I know that a concern for the school board has been that if we are to accept these dollars now and there's a change down the road, are we out of luck. And that's a big question and I liked your language there. Any navigation easement must have a clause that invalidates the easement in the event of future amendments to the NEMs indicates an increase in noise that would otherwise affect eligibility for initial or additional mitigation. And I spoke with the just even just last week I spoke with the folks from Jones Payne Group who are the lead consultants and they confirmed that the FAA has, we've seen documents of this but they reconfirmed that other airports in New England have that kind of out associated with it. So this, we're not looking for the moment with this request. Oh so other people and have been granted. Yes. And I also saw a message written by Williston's city manager, town manager who said that the 10% local share is still being discussed and I would like us to address that if possible and I'm open to feedback on whether or not that's feasible. The first that I had heard about it was in the newspaper last week which sort of suggested that there is the 10%, we've known all along that there's a 10% match. For the school. Not for this. I just mean in general. No, for residents. For all of these programs there's a 10% match. Right. Here too for as far as I understand it has been the airport slash city of Burlington that has covered that 10% for all of the house removals. I guess it wasn't even a question for us but perhaps it should be stated in here that our expectation would be that just as the airport slash city of Burlington paid the 10% for the house removals that the same expectation would move forward for insulation programs. That's right. And my understanding is that 10% did not come from Burlington taxpayers. It came from the airport revenue. Oh the airport revenue. I don't know if the state was five and the airport was five. That's what I think too. Well there may have been some. Well the state does provide, they used to provide $1.5 million to the airports for improvements to match some of the FAA dollars. Then that was reduced last year in the current budget to $500,000. So that, and I guess the portion that goes to Burlington was reduced to $500,000. Because they generate most of the dollars. And it's from the I don't know I guess what the airlines pay them. I think it's the fuel tax. The fuel tax. And that's what they've used in the past to fund the match. And maybe there was an additional 5% that the state came up with. I think it came out of the fuel tax. So and Burlington to my understanding I thought they had provided some of the money. But I don't believe they ever have. That's good to hear. I want them to do the same thing for South Burlington. This is something that is being thrust on these residents. They should in no way have to pay into mitigating noise coming from an airport that I'm sorry there is something wrong and deeply wrong about that. And I want us to state that clearly as a council. And I would go so far as to say it for... I've not heard on the subject one way or the other. I've not heard that the way that the airport was intending to continue or not continue the plan. So we can certainly be clear about our expectations. I heard from a woman who is a military family who said I might not be able to have my granddaughter come visit me because of these new planes. That's what breaks her heart. So we have to stick up for these people. And I also want us to stick up for the school. And that's why we've got this draft. It encourages the insulation of homes. It also for those families who just feel that they need to move, there is the other program which is the purchase assurance where somebody can sell their home to the airport for market value. It gets insulated and then another family that is okay with being in there chooses to be there. And so giving some flexibility to our residents if they just live there anymore too. Some people are longtime residents and don't want to move out of the community. This is painful. This is not just oh, I'll move to Florida now. This is not what it is for people. So this is... And I think that to ask them to pay 10% to mitigate the airport's change of use, we should say no way. And I don't think it should come out of our coffers either. When I read that note from the town manager and I've been seeing the chatter and since our meeting there last Wednesday evening, we have to, I think, really, really make it clear that we are contesting that. I don't want to disagree with any of that. I agree that if they've been paying the 10%, they should continue it. I just would add that the school board read a letter from the airport a month ago and they had a clear impression that they were going to have to pay the 10%. So I think that's an important thing to think about adding. A couple other points I want to make. I support this in its current wording. I think it's great. I'd want to follow back on your logic with the sound walls because I just didn't really follow that because if sound walls would reduce the eligibility, that also tells me that it would dampen the sound from planes taking off. We could be in our yard. Sound walls just make sense to me. And then the last, but you have dug into this more than I just say, I wouldn't dismiss sound walls because it would reduce the eligibility for money because it also tells me it would reduce and dampen the negative impact of this noise exposure bubble, which has property values as well as actual sounds. The last thing that I didn't see in here and I caught you before this, Paul, and if you already addressed this, that's great. But I would love a real accurate estimate for what the cost would be for sophisticated real-time permanent sound monitoring. So I understand that Champlain Valley Exposition does this. I would like to get real accurate measurements of what the sound is under certain conditions and use that in order to inform and improve operations as well as other considerations throughout the entire region. So I don't know why that wasn't in here. If you have your reasons, say La Vie. But me as a city councilor looking at these issues, I'd like real accurate true measurements of what the noise is at different parts of around the airport. And that should be something that we really do use in a way. So it should be under our purview. I mean that's how it usually is. But how we work in the sound wall, I mean I would just put it in recommendations just like you did for the navigation easement. This is something that should be a given. A sound wall should be a given. These people are adjacent to an active airfield. So it's not just the planes in flight. It is actually I know that they're moving the taxiway, but when they are running down that, they're rolling down that airfield, that makes noise. And that happens starting at 5.15 in the morning. Right? Are those engines doing their engine run-ups earlier? This is something that we have to, I think somehow ask for them to include a recommendation I think is fine. I mean I certainly don't want it to void any hope of people getting insulation, but if it's a recommendation, as opposed to here's our first request to follow up on that point really quick. I think there was a function where I was talking to some Burlington City Councilor and part of the blast wall came up and I think it might have been Gene Richards too, but somebody said that we required it and they said if we required the sound walls through our LDRs and I know the FAA gets all messy and everything, but if we have requirements that sound barriers be constructed when any type of activity emits sound, that's a justification to commit the resources or for them to find the monies. So I don't know if that's something we've already explored previously. You required it as part of a permit application for the reconstruction of the taxiway. So there was a Right, but it wasn't for sound purposes principally. It was for blast purposes. Can we expand that letter? I know you've exhausted everything. You know what you're doing. I just, I like walls. And I know the ground vibration. You can't too much about it. Fences make good neighbors. Walls make good sound. But if, you know, for the purposes of this letter and prioritization, where would you prioritize that investment of a finite amount of grant money? Place that above insulation? No, no, no, no. I would just put it under the recommendations here on page three. He has land use program recommendations, right? I'm not saying put the sound wall there, but when you have the navigation easement recommendations, the airport operation measure recommendations, I think it may be, I don't know if it fits under airport operation measure recommendations or if it should just be its own heading. I don't know. You've sat in on more attack meetings than I have, Paul. My understanding is that it technically is considered a land use measure in terms of buy out programs, purchase assurance programs, insulation programs, wall bear, noise barriers. And I'm reading their technical paper here where they basically said a noise barrier must be able to reduce aircraft noise by at least five decibels. If construction of the noise barrier is funded through the part 150 program, any residence receiving a five decibel reduction is considered mitigated and not likely eligible for other mitigation. So that's the trick of that. The complex part of that subject is that we're a pretty unique airport, as we all know, where the majority of the sound comes from a very small handful of aircraft. And that sound will likely be above the noise barrier. As soon as they turn on their engines you hear it. So the ground ops are clearly cool. I would put it as a separate category. We can certainly put it as a separate category. And I see that interestingly there's sort of a little bit of an out in here where it says if it's funded through the part 150 program, which is the principle funding that the airport gets, but it's not the only option on the table. So it certainly could be advocated for in all manners possible. QL taxes. Right. In all manner. So we can certainly advocate for that if you'd like. Again, they took houses down and the bubble expanded because the houses were dampening the noise. So I just think a sound wall, which they put along interstates, would do something to improve the quality of life and protect the homes from decreased prop market value as the NEM factors those things in. I have one more question. I don't want to drag this out. You have my support. You've been great. I can't improve this as is because I'm sorry, I can't. The blocks that you were talking about, what are you looking at to see, are you seeing potential blocks where there could be homes that would be perhaps acceptable for the land acquisition relocation. I know that's your final option, but you were talking about these blocks, rounding the block rounding. Could you fill me in on that? Yeah. So block rounding is it's a fairly common feature of these maps. So the maps as you saw are squiggles all over the place. After the noise maps are completed the policy decision needs to be made about what happens when it cuts partway through a property. So for example, I was noticing that the new maps that came out last week have two properties on Kirby Road, on the south side of Kirby Road, where the 75 line goes through the driveway. It doesn't touch the home, but it goes through the drive line. By the FAA sort of noise exposure map, that property has to be listed as 75. Given that all the homes, all the other properties around it are below 75, and given that those two properties, the homes themselves are not 75, the effect of rounding would be to move the line would have the policy of the line being outside of that property and not acquiring that home. By the flip side, under the old program if an entire neighborhood except one home were to be acquired and removed, it might not be the right policy to leave one house on a dark street. Now we're moving past that program. We don't have to keep that third option in there. The way I was writing that up was to I was trying to set it up to say, do everything humanly possible not acquire the home, and only if every single step has been shown, and there is no option for that homeowner to have any form of mitigation other than this, then that's the last resort. I would take it out, and I would still press for the MOU, because in the MOU we do have that clause that if a home, if conditions are such that it's really uninhabitable, that we would of course make a change in policy, but I would not put it here in our feedback to the airport. I would put down we are still hoping that the mayor of Burlington can sign the MOU. There is a clause that says something. Okay, so that would be number three under right above where it says, navigation easement recommendations. I mean, I understand where you're going with that. I guess the topic is for properties within the 75 plus DNL, which is sort of different. I just don't know where, if this is the right place to remind them that they could sign the MOU. Maybe not under C, but I would at the, maybe at the end. Maybe you can have a concluding something or other that identifies that all these measures are based on our preferences to not buy houses anymore. And we would encourage the city to reconsider signing or agreeing to the MOU that basically says we all agree we're not going to do this unless there's some mitigating circumstances. If in fact the F-35s are four times louder and are going to be having to use afterburners all the time, and the numbers really change. And so that it really is intolerable. You can't sound. Now in that circumstance I would say that the expectation would be that if there's a major change in operations that change the sounds again, then a new set of noise exposure maps should be done. And I would then urge the city to press to make sure that the noise compatibility plan is evaluated at that same time. They'd have to do the maps. They don't have to do the plans. The irony though is that the change occurred in 2009 and we got the maps right in 2016. Maybe that's a recommendation. If there's a substantial change in the noise level profile from the fighter jets or whatever, then a new map is deemed appropriate at the same time we should have a new NCP developed. So the two are linked. We're not living under an old plan with new noise and the old plan doesn't make sense. The hard part about this is that it just takes several years to get anywhere with funding. I mean I hope people aren't holding out because we have a new sound map and a new NCP plan that takes some 18 months to review the plan before they'll accept it. And apparently they always take 180 days. Then you start developing an application for money to do whatever it is. And that probably takes another year. I want to say yes. Then they have to go and review every single home. And there's a lot of homes in the 65. In our community, in Winooski, and just running the math on the prior programs other than the one time bump a couple of years ago we were getting 10 to 20 homes a year which was $4 to $8 million. We're only getting $4 to $8 million in house removal at $50,000 per house insulation that still maybe 150 to 100 homes a year and a couple thousand homes. So it's a long haul. Hearing that we want to make some amendments. What's your timeline on needing this approved by us? The next noise compatibility plan is the end of June. I think it would be great to have this before that time. So we can have something turn around for your next meeting. That would be great. Are people agreeable to some of the recommendations that Megan made? I think they need to get stronger. So just so that we get it correct. Are there any matching funds and what we discussed there? Including the school. Is David on the tack? The schools have a representative. I can't remember if it's David. I wonder if they should be weighing in on that. Because they have a specific thing that they want. And they want more than that. I only had a very, very tangential discussion but I'm not sure that it's under the exact same program even technically. I think it's a different program. I'm hesitant to do something for the school without knowing exactly what they want. I might write it more generally. Find out if they're going to write their own. So we need to collaborate. We can't just assume that it's their business. How would you feel about language that said that any mitigation taking place within South Burlington? Then it's a blanket statement that covers whether it's the school or our residents or even our own public works building. Do you be comfortable with that? Yes. I think that's broad enough. So let me finish my list here. Explorer, I heard from Tom a little bit of digging and seeing what sound monitoring might look like and come back to you. If you all have expertise on this, you don't think it's worth exploring? I've said it for years, Tom. But we have fuel tax that's coming to us. We could certainly use that money for that because we can't use it for anything else. Maybe that's how we fund it. I hear it's really expensive from some people, but when I talk to people that have measured sound around the Champlain Valley Exposition or other events, this is doable. People do it all the time at reasonable amounts of cost. That adds up to this guy. Smart app? Add a section about walls and sound barriers as a separate section. And a ground noise. For ground noise specifically. Be clear that if there is a substantial change in the noise profile and a noise map is deemed appropriate, a new noise compatibility plan should also be developed. The only thing I didn't get super clear guidance on... Why don't we get consensus to add a noise decibel meter and when people download consensus, they just let it run. All the houses that have the app running in the neighborhood could just simultaneously record and send their data. The one thing I did not get clarity on was the number 3 I would take it out. On page 3 at the top of the page, there's recommendations for 75 plus decibel. It's a priority list. First priority is block grounding to keep home. Second priority is do a feasibility study to make sure that there's no possible other way. And then third option was land acquisition and relocation. There are like 3 houses, 4 houses that have specific concern in your mind about third option. How many standalone homes are there? To be honest, I wrote this before the map came out. The number of homes that were not previously in a program that are at 75 are pretty minimal, but that may depend on black grounding as well, which way the blocks round. I haven't done an analysis to see if there are any that actually fall in that category. Outside the danger zone. When we have been advocating for them to sign this MOU for now more than almost 2 years, right? I would take out 3. I would. Why are we back stepping? I heard from them that you're not back stepping, but you're just thinking of that house on Dumont Ave, that single house. You're trying to protect that house's ability to sell to the airport? Well, there is already a section there that says that if it was previously in a program that would be able to do it, it could live with it. If folks are indifferent towards it, I don't think it changes it that much, because it already says 1 and 2, and it's by inference that if you can't do 1 and 2, there's only one option left. So take the option now. We sort of say it too. You have to a third party assessment to make sure you have an acceptable outcome amongst all parties. That one D1. I think it's really important that you share this letter with the school department. As a draft? As a draft. And ask them if they are sending in comments or if they want to incorporate them or add an addendum or something to this one. We'll find out and let you guys get a note out to you letting you know what their plan is. Because I mean I sort of agree with Kevin that I just don't know if I want to go down that road again of telling the school board. We better not. Or assuming we know what they want. We know what they want and can articulate that in a way that they would want it articulated. Well that's why we reach out. I don't think we have to necessarily send in the same letter but I think we share with them the letter before we finalize it and if there's any feedback but we also hope that they would address their concerns. That they know better than we do. But I think the 10% share is a concern that has been publicly shared. So that would be very positive but I think we should share our draft. Just so they know what we're doing. Maybe we can share it on the 18th. That could be an item on the steering committee that here's the letter that we're sending in. Well we share it with them before then and then we get their feedback on the 18th and finalize it. I just want to say Paul I know your time is pulled in a lot of different directions but I really am appreciative that you're on top of this entire airport issue and I couldn't think of anybody better to be doing this. It's a very important subject area for our community. Okay so with those additions. Then we will put it in front of you to your next meeting. Thanks everybody. I'll follow up with Carmen. Item 14, convene as the South Wellington Liquor Control Board to consider one application at Kestrel Coffee Roasters. I move we convene as the South Liquor Control Board. All in favor? Aye. I move we approve Kestrel Coffee. Where are they? Second. Let's do it. Second. Any discussion? All in favor? Aye. I move to come out of this South Wellington Liquor Control Board. Second. All in favor? Aye. I've got to include this in the agenda so what I'm going to suggest that we do is save some time and I'll pull together some sort of the possible steps for improving communication and I'll also and get it out to you. I'll also include the a copy of if you haven't already read it on the school board's social media communications policy. We said we would look at it. I would like us to. I'm not sure we would ever approve it as written but we should discuss that and at least come up with something that we agree if we can is acceptable and I would like to then be able to I know it will be right before the next steering committee meeting but if we have I haven't gotten anything back from them other than a statement that Elizabeth had thought that we'd all agreed to these things. What the addendum? No, no, no, no all the steps to improve communication and I think we agreed to anything we just discussed. They were suggestions right there were suggestions that needed a little fleshing out and I thought we were both going to flush them out and then come back so we'll flush them out neck on the 17th and have a draft that we can share with them potentially on the 18th. Are we all here on the 17th? So the 18th is the Rick Markott Central School Lake Monsters game that's the night your meeting and two of the school board members are Rick Markott parents so they might also be at the same family event that Tuesday night. Has the school board confirmed that that Tuesday works? They suggested that. Because I kind of promised my kids I would be at this baseball game so I'm not going to be at that steering board but I think you guys would be just fine without me. So are you okay if we keep going with the 18th? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So that's what I'll do for our next meeting so we can hash through and I think it's easier to have something to react to. Okay. Done. I'm moving adjourned. Second. All in favor? Wait, wait, wait, wait. Your adjourn is fine. Signing is another thing. You guys already approved the police officers associate.