 Welcome to QWOP Talk, I'm Crystal here again still at Hong Kong and pursuing continuing important boundary pushing topics that involve Asia and maybe in context to the world. Now this month as you all know is the, or you may not know and you should know is the trans visibility day of, right, international trans visibility day or month. And so we're going to talk about trans visibility in Hong Kong. I've got a special guest with me today who is a trans man in Hong Kong who founded an organization to create the support systems and to talk about it. And we're here to talk about what the stigmas are and how we struggle to find space to have communities to talk about these issues that are still very, very sensitive here in Hong Kong. So without further ado, let me introduce my wonderful guest, Casper Luna and Casper welcome to QWOP Talk. Hi, Crystal, how are you? Great. Thank you for being on our show. So you know, it's very, I'm very lucky to have you to be on the show because you come from a very local perspective. You share your own personal experience. You've had videos films, you've filmed yourself doing transition operation, talking to your mother in very intimate settings about your identity and I find it entertaining almost if you don't mind is your conversation with your mom because it is very real and to see how she feels about your process and how you try to get her to understand it is really, really important. So why don't you start by sharing a little bit about your background? Like, you know, how did you grow up and how did you come to see your identity first? Okay. So I think like I have some like typical like beats as like most binary transgender people and some like unusual experience. The typical thing is that like I do have a sense of like that I'm not girl or like I don't feel like a girl or feel like that I want to be a boy and that's how I express it when I was young. And you say young, how old were you? Three or as long as like I remember. Okay. But this this part is kind of very typical. Okay. And but the untypical part is that like I have a very, I think relatively happy like growing up times that like I could be like as tomboy as much as I would like myself to be present myself as a tomboy. I have an elder brother, a younger sister and I could just pray with them, pray with my brother and like have the clothes that's like the old clothes of my brother, etc. And no one really questioned about how boyish or masculine that I am. I mean, or somehow they would acknowledge it. They say, well, you're so boyish or you're so masculine and that's kind of like I would say affirming or comforting to me when I was young. I don't really realize that like. Your siblings felt that way because they didn't think of it to the extent that you don't want, you are not comfortable in the body you grew up in or they thought it was like harmless play like just, you know, I'm just dressing up. Yeah. Well, that's the part that we say like gender identity and gender expression. Gender identity is how you think like what gender you are, whether it's binary man or woman or non-binary. And that's the gender expression part, whether it's about your like appearance and also your interest that kind of like whether it's defined as like more masculine or feminine part. I think that my gender expression is quite in terms of my interest and also my appearance is quite like masculine or boyish. And I think to my to my like siblings or others, families, they just take it as part of my character, right? And to me, I didn't have like, oh, and also you asked about the body. Well, I don't have like very much uncomfortableness towards my body until puberty. And that's kind of like common for like the experience for trans men. Because like for trans women, they know it or they, or not they know it. But they have this kind of uncomfortableness with their body since they were very young because of like the bottom part, right, genitals. But for trans men, it's more about the upper part and comes with puberty. So it's only about when puberty hits, then that I feel more uncomfortable about my body. But I would say that like fortunately, my my breast, like my or my top part was not that big. And so I could like cover with my like clothes, layers of clothes or just like through my bag. And I feel more comfortable about it. And at that time, it's other thing is like only me who don't feel comfortable about my body change. Okay, like other girls, they have the same kind of like similar kind of feelings that they don't know what to do about it. Yeah, because your body is changing, you have. Right, right, right. So I could not just think as whether it's about like anything related to my gender or gender identity or it's about like the body change. Like what's the difference between my feelings and those of other girls, right? Right. And so, but the difference is that like this kind of uncomfortable as per seats, right? And I was quite late to realize that I'm a trans. I only realized that I'm a trans where I was 32. Wow. Yeah, yeah, when I've read the book of a trans. How old are you now? You don't even look 32. Chinese? Chinese youth. Right. I'm 45 now. Okay. So I realized about like 13 years ago that I realized that my trans, when I read a book of like a bibliography of a Japanese trans woman, that she talks about her like childhood and like what she think, how she feel, and that I find similarities. And so I realized that I'm the same kind of like person as her. Also, do you think also because there was no terminology, no vocabulary for what it meant, you know, like 10, 20 years ago. So you didn't know what it was you were feeling. You just knew you weren't some, you weren't in the right body. Is that the way to put it? I mean, definitely, definitely. When I like, when I'm like, like in contact with other trans people like from organization and then during my journey, that like, I really find the generation difference, right? That like people who's like about a generation as me or like their older, because there's a lack of like information. Like the internet was not really like there yet. And so it's very difficult for them to, to, to work out like what, what they are, who they are, right? What kind of like struggles that they're going through. And for the other generations, like the 20s, 30s, like early 30s, or even like teenage underage people, trans people, they, they, they could really find the information about their struggles, about their experience on internet. And then they, they, they know who they are. They also could like, like, use the, the, the narrations of other people, right? Other trans people to, to tell their stories. Okay. To, to do it. Yeah. And like for us, Sorry. Because we talked about the younger generation having access to information, which helps them use that vocabulary, but all at the same time, there's a lot of criticism from more conservative, especially older generation who think that there's a trend that we're not really understanding what gender is, that they're making these big mistakes by, you know, pushing themselves, thinking that they identify with something and then they have this operation and then they're like, Oh gosh, you know, this is going to be like tragic consequences. So while we're still moving ahead with a progressive way of thinking about the different types of genders and bodies, the older generation are still stuck in a way of not understanding or not wanting to understand. So how do we talk about the intergenerational conversation? You know, your mom is very liberal compared to a lot of Chinese moms, right? So you were lucky, but how do we bridge this conversations? And how do you, how do you feel about the young people who feel like, Oh, what is it a trend? Like, why is everybody wanting to do an operation now? Everyone's claiming they're trans or by what, you know, Well, I mean, like not every trans do what operations, right? And also that would lead to another issue or about gender recognition. So gender recognition be tied to operation, right? Because like currently in Hong Kong, the way for a person, okay, whether they're trans or not, okay, for a trans person, right? The way that they could change the gender or the ID card, Hong Kong ID card, is that they have to undergo surgery, which means like removal of their reproductive organs and also chat, transform their genitals, okay? And otherwise they could not change the gender. So like for me, my decision on like, or on surgery is about that. Like I want to, I did my top surgery, okay? Removal of my breast, okay? Because I don't feel comfortable about that. Not because of the ID. You didn't do that because of the identity? No, it's not about the Hong Kong ID card. It's about like really about how I feel about my body, okay? So I didn't do the bottom surgery. And so I could not change the gender on my Hong Kong ID card and it still stays like me as like F, okay? Even though I do look like masculine after and more masculine after my use of like testosterone, okay? My voice like changes. I grow for the boys' puberty. I become more muscular, et cetera. And so like it's quite inconvenient that I would have to explain to others like why, like I'm a trans person and they may not understand what that means and what my needs would be. Yeah. And also like there's like quite a lot of like perception about like trans people is like tied to like surgery, okay? And also maybe bathrooms, right? And also maybe there's like, there's so like a thought or some that kind of things or fans, right? And is that right? Do you think, are people complaining? Not just in Hong Kong, even in US, you know. Particularly everyone's trying to make noise about that. Oh, you know, it's, you know, the danger. But I didn't see that in Hong Kong. I don't see that kind of vulnerability and that sense in the bathrooms, but maybe. Well, it's not just that like, it's just that like, it's not that like outspoken in a sense. I mean, some people, they are, they're just like, they want to know more. They're not taking stance yet. Okay. And some people, if they are, they're like opposite. Like, I mean, even say the religious people, the Christians, I mean, they are more against same sex, right? Same sex like relationships or same sex marriage. But regarding transgender, I mean, they may say that, well, it's not natural. God didn't create you, create you like this. But because like Bible didn't mention anything about like trust people is not there. And so I think like it's more difficult relatively for them to really like say something very definite. Okay. To oppose us. And especially like say we sort of have like a backup of like having a diagnosis. Like a psychiatric or mental like condition or for having like gender dysphoria. Right. So that's kind of like maybe regaining as us as having some kind of like illness or like sickness that like is out of our control that like we didn't choose it. So I think like whether people are opposite like to something or not depends on whether they think it's like your choice or not. So for same sex like people like the gay and the Christians may think that, well, it's your choice. Right. And so they would oppose it. Right. You shouldn't choose this. Okay. And for like trust people, they're missing that they could not say much about it because like we have like sort of like a medical or like science, like no backup that like we didn't choose how the way that we we are. Hmm. And so that's like the interesting conversation as well. Can we back up a little bit and talk about like the content you how this came to be because you know you and I had this previous conversation that you know in other parts of the world, there are indigenous cultures where in third genders, non binary genders have always been there, you know, India, you know, in the Pacific Islands, Hawaii, there have had identities that have been respected for forever until the religion kind of came down and says or colonial. Yeah. Being down and says, no, this is very black and white. We have men and women. You are not doesn't fit into our structure. So in Hong Kong, Chinese culture, we had the obviously the Unix was part of the system of the king, you know, the emperor, but there have been trans trans people right non binary people forever. So how does the Chinese culture take on this conversation today? Well, I would say that like, I don't think there's like any, like stand alone non binary icons. That's in the Chinese culture. But that's like this kind of like understanding or concept about like transcending gender. I mean, in the sense that like say in Chinese opera, right? Only only only men there like to perform right. They have like pretend or they have to dress up as a female. Right. But that's it and respect it. Right. So it's like, but then that's a performance. So they don't think, oh, yeah. Right. But but also like say in like the moon out. Moon out. You know, that's like a daughter, like who like a dress up to be a son to take the responsibility for for the father and for the brothers. Right. So this kind of like transcending gender is, is there this kind of understanding and has so far been respected. Like for like being respect or like in understand in that context, right? It's like Chinese opera or it's like for the video PRT or that kind of things. So I think that's like this kind of like space. I would say space. Right. For for understanding of like a transforming gender in the sense. But then only when it comes to like say say the past when maybe 40 years say in Hong Kong, we do have like, gender firming surgery, which is like what's previously known as like sex reassignment surgery back in the early 80s. Right. Like 40 years ago, years ago, I think we are one of like the most like we really keep up with like what's been outside. I mean, in other foreign countries that like we have this kind of like medical system being provided by the public hospital. You know, the government hospital. Oh, yeah. From psychiatric assessment to like prescribing hormones to like grant you surgery. That is like being supported by the government hospital. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think like, and then you can change your gender ID. Yeah. Right. Because right, they're not the official kind of confirmation. Yeah. So, so this kind of like a formal backup was there since like 40 years ago. And, and that's like the public affairs, like a program, TV program has been featuring about like this, this group of like, say, trans people before like transgender people. And so like, and but the term in Chinese was like being used was like sex change before being saying, okay. Perfect. You really use transgender crossing. Like for people, right? And cross over right to like, right, transition. I think like, it's like what we say, transgender is more about like trans in or instead of like sex change. Yeah. And really, we want to like, emphasize nowadays is that like, we are like somehow inco incongruous. Right. That's a term of another diagnosis is gender. Apart from gender dysphoria is gender incongruous in the ICD menu. Okay. Okay. And so it's, we have this kind of like gender incongruous and I want to be congruent again. Okay. So this is the, the, the message that we convey to others. Okay. Instead of like change, we are not changing. We are like just like being ourselves. Right. Changing the outer body to align with our inner self. Okay. It's this kind of like understanding. Are you happy with the way the government is progressing or moving in the direction to, to support people in the trans community here? Well, yes. I think like compared to other, especially compared to other countries. I think like medical support is really important for trans people who really have like a severe like degree of like to us that body body dysphoria. Right. And it's like they either do self harm or kill themselves or they would like have to save up a lot of money to go overseas to do it. Right. The system is not there. I mean, the support from the government is not there. But then when there's like support from the government hospital, then it's really like safe a lot. And it's like a lower to assess, right? People who are with different background, like different economic background, they could like have access to the, this kind of like medical support. No, sorry. Just the, the ability to have these operations, do you need like a regular doctor to recommend like they have to be diagnosed before they are allowed to have these surgeries or it can. Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I think like not like a referral from. Thank you. GP and then and then to see the psychiatrist. That's like they have like a genetic clinic, a centralized clinic. Like providing support from like psychiatrists to clinical psychologists to endocrinologists who prescribe hormones. You are the like surgeons, you know, like one stop. Like. Yeah. You need to have all these support systems in order to get to that. And then when it gets to the operation because it's government run, then it's affordable for people who need to do it. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. It's just that like nowadays it's like a long queue. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Like say for trans woman to do the bottom surgery is about the weight is about 10 years. What? Yeah. Why is it between like two doctors who can do it? Why? Well, only one. And they only like they only provide say six do six cases per year. So when you hear about like 10 years is a long time, but it's only about like 60 cases. Right. And of course you can understand that like that's a long wait. So like for some people, they would do the surgery overseas. But still apart from the surgery, you can still get the support like the psychiatric assessment and other support the government hospital. And that's important. I think that's very important. I think the mental aspect is so under acknowledged. Right. That's right. We don't see that problem. Yeah. And also the legal recognition part, I mean, the Hong Kong is there. I mean, compared to some countries say like even for Thailand's or Philippines. They could never ever change their gender. Even they have surgery. Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah. So the system is just not there. Yeah. The recognition is not there. Right. In Hong Kong is at least there. Right. Yeah. And that's like. People from like China coming over to do it or other places to come to Hong Kong to do the surgery. Oh, no, no, no. Not really. That kind of medical tourism for that. No. I mean, I think like the trust committee Asia, they would prefer to go to Thailand. Yeah, still. Okay. And I've heard like from Japan from Hong Kong. Yeah. Other places. Yeah. Let's go back because I don't, I know we're going to run out of time before we know it, but talk about your personal transition process. Like for people who don't know and understand like, you know, we mentioned mental, the challenges of accepting your body and maybe the physical. So you, when you start hormones, like how long is that process? When to what point did you feel like, okay, well, I've achieved this point where I really feel comfortable. I am. Oh, okay. So I think about half a year of the use of testosterone. My voice like dropped and stable and my period stops a bit or a bit more than half a year. Okay. So it really helps me to feel more like in my body. Okay. How I present myself. And before my voice dropped, I really like fear to speak in a sense or very nervous or anxious. And then my, my body, like the fat and the muscle become like a transform the part. And you see, so for me to do G main game muscle. Yeah. Also my outlook become more like muscular. Angular. Yeah. So and, and I, I don't look at myself in mirror before that much. Really? Yeah. True. And then I, I like to, when I got some face of hair as well. So when I, when I look into the mirror, I, I feel that like that's me and it's become more aligned to like how I would imagine myself would be like with myself image. And that's very important to say. And so when I'm more at ease with myself and my body. Yes. I become more confident. Yeah. Just like casual in like interacting with other people. And, and I'm, and also as I said, I'm very fortunate to have all my friends, my family who accept me. Yeah. And I just like them as my support at the back and I could really go quite far. Yeah. So I want to like, that's how I want to like set up another organization, set up an organization to like support other trans people. Yeah. I think that apart from providing like peer support, I have another like trans woman colleague work with me as well. Apart from providing peer support, we will also engage professionals like the speech therapist, counselor to provide counseling to have monthly support groups. For therapists. Why, why speech therapist? Right. They, they are like, say they have access, especially for trans woman to learn to speak in a feminine voice because their voice could not, would not change after the use of like hormones. Right. So, and that's very important for them because like as I said. Yeah. Yeah. Even if they are there, like their appearance is more like feminine. Right. And they still fear to speak because that would just break their image as an aspect that people might think as part of the process. And when you say that transition process and you say, I like the word transcend because we're going beyond something. It's not just a change, you know, you're, you're, you're taking yourself and you're, you're shaping it and, and thinking about specific ways to help shape it to what you want it to be. Right. Yes. Yes. Um, what, like back to your like question very early about like the, the, like older generation or how much people think about sex and gender and about surgery, et cetera. I think like, um, as a trans person, really, we really, apart from like supporting the peers, we also do proper education as well. Yeah. And what we do is like try to break down all the layers or the aspects related to gender. Um, and what sex means, what body, um, and what gender, how you perceive your self image and or what kind of like, uh, the spectrum, um, as a woman, you can be like, uh, you can be very feminine and also be more like a boyish, that kind of thing for men as well. And, and also like there's some in between. It's like, say, especially for non-binary persons, they don't want to be put into either of the binary boxes. Right. And, um, and talk about like, um, um, even as like, um, physical body. Yeah. We've heard that like trans men in like, uh, some other countries, they got pregnant, right? Right. And they have kids, right? Yeah. They have kids. Right. Um, and, and even there's a lot of like criticism on, on them. Yeah. Um, how they are just like a not really man or woman. Right. Or like choosing, um, that kind of things. I think like it's more about like body autonomy. Mm hmm. Uh, and also how you like, uh, find peace with your body. Yeah. I like that. I mean, there's something that like you don't like about it and you try to work on it. Um, I mean, say for some trans men, um, they, they may not do top surgery and is that they like, um, use body building, right? As I afraid. Yeah. I think that's the definition to you. Like cell phone. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and to transform their body in the way that they, they would, uh, that would be more, uh, aligned with their self image. So it's, it's more about very individual. Yeah. Yeah. And then different ways to do it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think your idea of confidence too is you've got to find it in yourself personally. Um, what it means to you to feel good in your body, right? Because it means that is not one way to do it. Um, so in this limited time left, I mean, the time and so much stuff, I want to ask you, but, uh, so you created this, uh, this, this gender empowerment organization, right? To, to provide this type of like, uh, professional and peer support for people who are, um, struggling with, um, uh, their gender issues, specifically with trans people, correct? In Hong Kong. Yes. Yeah. So what would you say, like, if you had to talk to anybody who's struggling out there, um, with social pressures, uh, with family pressures, with, um, you know, individual personal issues, uh, what are just some short ways in one short minute that you could maybe give to people? Yes. Love yourself. Um, you have to really take care of yourself. Um, cause like quite a number of like trans people that we encountered that they are kind of like more suppressive. Um, they always put other things like, like before them, like the families, the parents, um, what their marital families and or like the, the, the workplace and so, so like, uh, kind of like pressure. Yeah. Um, so we would tell them to love themselves and, but also that they have to, um, just carry the people around them to go into the journey with them. Um, and that's how we also provide support to, um, the families, like the parents, um, because like people who, like, even they may appear to like say oppose you, they may like, it's out of their intention of like caring for you. So, um, try to like, um, start the conversation. Um, and I've, cause I've benefited like a lot from the con, from the conversation with like lots of my friends, my family, et cetera. And that's how I could like really articulate, um, well, also like, yeah, like who I am. Um, and also with that kind of like support behind you, it's easier for you to, to, um, to undergo, like to go through your transition and be who you are. I mean, I think you're right. Being a trans, wanting to be, um, as your other fides, like man or woman, it's not just a man or woman, but also, um, it's everything. Yeah. The whole lifestyle. So I think you're on it. So we need to converse and thank you for giving us that tip because I know it's hard for some people, but we really, um, hope we can have these conversations and move it forward. Unfortunately, we're out of time, but I'm really, really appreciate what you're sharing. This is Casaruan timing in from Hong Kong and, uh, best of luck with all the empowerment you are creating. Thank you. Thank you. Crystal.