 Good to go the appointed hour of six o'clock. Having been reached, I welcome everyone to this meeting, the Amherst zoning board of appeals. My name is Craig Meadows at the request of Steve judge, chair of the Amherst zoning board of appeals who is unable to make tonight's meeting. I call this meeting to order as the acting chair, pursuant to chapter 30, chapter 20, excuse me of the acts of 2021 and extended again by chapter two of the acts of 2023. This meeting will be conducted via remote means. Members of the public who wish to access the meeting may do so via zoom or by telephone. No person, no in-person attendance of members of the public will be permitted, but every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access proceedings in real time via technological means. Additionally, the meeting recordings may be viewed via the town of Amherst YouTube channel and ZBA website. Please indicate if you wish to make a comment by clicking the raised hand button when the public comment is solicited. If you have joined the zoom meeting using a telephone, please indicate you wish to make a comment by pressing star nine on your telephone. When called on, please identify yourself by stating your full name and address and put yourself back into mute when finished speaking. Residents can express their views for up to three minutes or at the discretion of the zoning bullet of appeals chair. If speaking, if the speaker does not comply with these guidelines or exceeds there a lot of time their participation will be disconnected from the meeting. In accordance with mass general law, chapter 40A and article 10 special permit granting authority of the Amherst zoning bylaw, this public meeting has been duly advertised and the notice there has been posted and mailed to the party's interest. We'll begin with a roll call of the regular members of the ZBA. I'm Craig Meadows and here, Philip White. Present. Our associate members of the ZBA, Sarah Marshall. Here. And David Slaveter. Here. Also in attendance are Rob Wachilla, planner and ZBA staff liaison, Rob Mora, building commissioner and I don't see anyone else from the town. The zoning board of appeals is a quasi judicial body that operates under the authority of chapter 40A of the general laws with Commonwealth of Massachusetts for the purpose of promoting the health, safety and convenience and general welfare of the inhabitants of the town of Amherst. One of the most important elements of the Amherst zoning bylaw is section 10.38. Specific findings from this section must be made for all of the decisions. All hearings and meetings are open to the public and are recorded by the town staff. The procedure is as follows. The petitioner presents the application to the board during the hearing, after which the board will ask questions for clarification or additional information. After the board has completed its questions, the board will seek public input. The public speaks with the permission of the chair. If a member of the public wishes to speak, they should so indicate by using the raised hand function in their screen. The chair with the assist of the staff will call upon people wishing to speak. When you are recognized, please present your name and address to the board for the record. All questions and comments must be addressed to the board. The board will normally hold public hearings where information about the project and input from the public is gathered, followed by public meetings for each. The public meeting portion is when the board deliberates and is generally not an opportunity for public comment. If the board feels it has enough information and time, it will decide upon the applications tonight. Each petition heard by the board is distinct and evaluated by its own merits and the board is not ruled by precedent. Statutorily, for a special permit, the board has 90 days in the close of the hearing to file a decision for variance. The board has 100 days from the date of the filing to file a decision. No decision is final until the written decision is signed by the sitting board members and is filed by the town clerk's office. Once the decision is filed with the town clerk, there is a 20 day appeal period for an aggrieved party to contest the decision with a relevant judicial party body in the Supreme Court. After the appeal period, the permit must be recorded at the registry of deeds to take effect. Tonight's agenda will be first the road call which we had approval of the minutes from December 14th, 2023, the public hearing which will discuss ZBA FY 2024-7, GABE Krause, GABE's underground request for a special permit under the sections 3.352.3, 5.041 and 5.042 of the zoning bylaw to create an establishment consisting of a restaurant and a nightclub with prerecorded entertainment, two patio areas for outdoor dining and a total capacity of 300 occupants, located at 23-25 North Pleasant Street, map 14A, partial 50, general business, zoning district and DRB and MPD overlay districts, continued from 12, 14, 23. There'll then be a public meeting, discussion, general public comment period, other business not anticipated within 48 hours and then adjournment. The first order of business tonight is the minutes, approval of meeting minutes from December 14th, 2023, as everyone on the board have the chance to review the previous minutes, okay? Are there any comments or edits that are needed for the minutes? I knew it. Yes, Sarah. Well, I didn't want to disappoint you. Oh, thank you. I'm so appreciative. So near the bottom of page two, the first bullet under discussion, which is about a comment I made, the first line, Rob, would you delete the if that is at almost the end of the first line before everyone, because you already had an if earlier in the sentence? Do you see where I mean? Yeah. Okay. And at the end of that same paragraph, no one under the age of 21 is allowed, please, not R. And that's all. Thank you. Very good. Are there any other comments? Okay, if there are none, then I would entertain a motion to approve the minutes from December 14th, 2023, with the edits that Sarah so kindly provided. Is there a... So moved. Very good. Is there a second? I'll second. Thank you. The vote requires a roll call. The chair votes aye. Mr. White. Aye. Mr. Ms. Marshall. Aye. Mr. Slovacher. Aye. Very good. Anonymous. The minutes are approved. As amended. Okay. We now have ZBA FY 2024-7, Gabe Krause, Gabe's underground, located at 23-25 North Pleasant Street. Members sitting on this panel are myself, Mr. White, Ms. Marshall, Mr. Slovacher. Are there any disclosures? No disclosures. The following updated submissions have been received by the town staff. Management plan updated 1-10-24. And also building commissioner Rob Moorer and staff liaison Rob Wachilla met with the applicant on January 9th, 2024 to discuss the soundproofing suggestions with the applicant. Would either Rob... Either Rob, yes, indeed. I'd like to update the board on this meeting. Yeah, sure. I can do it very briefly. So me and Rob Moorer met with the applicants last Tuesday just to give like a general walkthrough of what's been done so far and kind of suggests what can be done in the meantime before the 28-peel period ends, if it were to move forward. In terms of soundproofing, we did look at the existing nightclub side and we made some suggestions for film that could be placed over the window in the nightclub portion and then some suggestions for some thicker doors. Rob Moorer, I don't know if you wanted to add anything else from our visit with the applicants. Yeah, I don't think it was probably not changing the doors but just working on closing up the gaps, weather stripping and sealing that up. Those little things do make a difference. The entire Northern Wall is an exposed direct wall inside the establishment. The applicant would like to have that retained for the look inside the nightclub. So there really weren't too many options about adding another material on the wall that would help. So I think focusing on the door, which is typically our problem area, it's any of the openings in the glass, transmit the noise more than any of the other parts of the structure would probably be the place to start and then we can then monitor the noise at the property line to make sure the decibel readings are proper if there's ever an issue. Very good. Who's representing the applicant on this matter? So they were just here but I think their computer froze or they lost connection. Yeah, so they might be back very shortly. Sarah? Yes, so while we wait for that, it looks like there were some other updated submissions if this red typing is to be believed, updates. Just to clarify, so those updates were also materials that were received after this project application report was given to the board members. So the updates that you're talking about are the two updates that were done to the plans prior to the previous meeting, but were given to me after the packets went out to the board members. So that's why that text is in red. Just to show that that was the language that was different from the previous project application report that you guys had. So I apologize for the confusion, but as of right now, the only updated materials that we did receive from the applicant was the management plan. But are you saying the members may or may not have seen those updates? So the version that you have now in your possession or at least from the last meeting packet is the most up to date of their plans. So the reason why I included those other updates in there was because just the record for the public record that there were previous versions that were given to us as staff for review. So Mr. Chair, I do have Reese DeSheaes who I believe is with the applicant raising their hand. Is it okay if I make them a panelist so they can explain what's going on with the applicant? Yes, please. Alrighty. I just received a message from Gabe. He is having technical difficulties with the computer. They did those connections that they're currently working on getting their connection back so that they can rejoin. Okay, do you wanna go over any of the issues with us at this point before they get on it? I absolutely can't. Yeah, I can answer to the best of my ability from my side of everything. Absolutely. So the applicant is back. So I'll promote them to panels. I'm gonna get this sorted out. Mr. Chair, can I note they could perhaps part just co-phone in if necessary? Would that be an option? They're back. Okay. Sorry about that. We had a little something, some kind of computer glitch. How unusual. Could you state your name and address please? My name is Andrea Hunter, 142 South Long Yard Road in Southwick, Mass. Okay, browse 252 Elm Street in Westfield, Mass. And Reese, since you're already here. Yes, I'm Reese DeSheaes and I am 44 Belcher Town Road, Amherst, Massachusetts. Very good. Whom is presenting now? You're apparently muted. Sorry, we missed the question unless you want us to kind of start from the beginning. Could you start from the beginning please? Yes, okay. Our concept is a bar and grill with an eating section. The bar is basically divided up into two sections. We have the dining side with, on the other end there'll be some pool tables. There'll be one or two arcade games where this is the side where people can, they can eat, they can drink, play pool. And the other section will have a dance floor, a bar, and people can order food on that side as well. So I mean, that's the concept. Did you want me to go over the changes we made? Yes, please. Okay. Last time we were talking about a, you needed a more detailed emergency plan, which in the revised management plan, I could read that section unless everybody read it. Would you like me to read it? Okay. Yes. All right. In case of fire or other emergency, the fire department can access the business from North Pleasant Street through the narrow alleyway next to Antonio's Pizza, or the alley from Main Street. That one is a lot wider. It's next to crazy noodles. And I believe that's a, on the other side, there's a chicken barbecue type of place. But anyways, it's much wider, but I mean, the fire department can make that decision as to which way they want to go. And the DJ and or the staff will be instructed to announce over the microphone or with a megaphone if the music is cut off due to the way the sound system is set up and everything on that side of the business is connected to the fire alarm. So it is supposed to shut down everything, shut down the music if the fire alarm goes off. In which case, if the microphone is not gonna work, we would use a megaphone. The DJ would have a megaphone at his booth. And for patrons to, the instructions would be for the patrons to proceed calmly to the exits. Bouncers will usher patrons to the exit doors, which will have lighted exit signs above them and are easily passable from indoors. Bouncers outdoors on the patio and outside the awning entrance will instruct patrons to exit the premises away from the parking lot and guide them along the sidewalk towards Kellogg Street. That will keep them, if they head towards Kellogg Street, that'll keep them out of the parking lot. It'll keep them away from those two alleyways so that the fire department will have free access. It says so that firefighters or other emergency crew will have a clear passage and patrons will be kept safe and out of the way. Okay. The next section has to do with managing patrons. That was the other thing that we talked about last time. So I'll go into that section. Oh, yes, the hours. Hours of operation are simply, for the entire establishment, it's simply Sunday through Saturday, 3 p.m. to 1 a.m. The next section has a lot of revision and some additional items. Managing patrons on slow nights, Sunday through Wednesday, only one to two bouncers will be necessary monitoring patrons. On busy nights, Thursday through Saturday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, there will be a minimum of seven bouncers. Bouncers will be assigned zones, specific areas of the establishment for which they will be responsible. One bouncer will be assigned the pool table and dining area. One bouncer at the overhanging entrance. One bouncer in the red floor hallway, we call it red floor hallway because it's a red floor, between the two main sections. Two bouncers in the dance floor area, two bouncers at the awning entrance and two bouncers outside the awning entrance. Bouncers at the entrances will be checking IDs and bouncers will monitor the crowd for the potential of a fight or dispute stake and attempt to diffuse any situation that could escalate. If a patron refuses to calm down or continues to be disruptive and cause harm, they'll be escorted to the door and banned from the bar. The police will be called at the discretion of the security staff. In addition, bouncers will continuously monitor the capacity levels in all areas, the dining area as well as the dance floor area to ensure that the total capacity does not exceed 300 people. Bouncers at the overhang and awning entrances will each have handheld counters and be in contact with each other via walkie-talkie as patrons leave or enter in order to keep an accurate capacity count. Managing patrons at the entrance. Sunday through Wednesday, 3 p.m. to 12 a.m. that's what we're calling the slow nights. And Thursday through Saturday, 3 p.m. to 7 p.m. Patrons will enter through the overhang entrance. That's the entrance underneath it. Hours will be clearly posted on the door on event nights. For example, if a DJ is coming in Thursday, Friday, Saturday from 7 p.m. until 12, 15 a.m. patrons will enter through the awning entrance only. This is so we can make sure that with large crowds we can check IDs, we can make sure no one is taking in weapons and so forth and to keep everybody organized. The overhang entrance will be locked from the outside and a sign on the door at the overhang entrance will direct patrons to use the awning entrance. At the awning entrance, hours will be clearly posted in the window. Those patrons who arrive before 7 p.m. from the overhang entrance and who wish to go to the dance floor section, those people who are already in will be checked for weapons and proper ID by security staff located at the hallway egress to the dance floor area. On Thursdays through Saturday starting at 7, patrons will be required to line up, that's if they have not arrived, line up in an orderly fashion within the boundaries of a retractable belt barrier in front of the awning entrance. I mean, not directly in front because of the clearance, but in that area. Okay, you have to refer to the floor plan to see it. The barrier will be set up so patrons can be gathered out of the way of pedestrians. Spillover patrons who do not fit in the queue will be instructed and monitored by security staff to maintain a straight line as they enter the queue. The awning doors will be closed except for the passage of patrons when the music is playing to reduce noise level outside the building. Security staff will be positioned inside the entrance and outside the entrance, monitoring the crowd outside the awning, outside under the awning. Bouncers will be checking IDs of patrons as they enter. IDs will be checked by scanner and magnifier light. Bouncers will be monitoring patron capacity with a handheld counter. Small signs that the barrier will direct patrons to enter here, meaning the barrier at the awning. Bouncers will also be checking patrons for weapons, brass knuckles, nips, et cetera. Patrons can exit through the overhanging entrance door and the awning entrance at any time during operating hours. There will be bouncers at those doors. All doors will be clearly marked as to whether is an acceptable entrance or exit during operating hours. Bouncer will be monitoring the patrons as they leave. I'm in the section where it says monitoring, monitoring, managing patrons as they leave to ensure that they comply with Massachusetts laws regarding alcohol beverages, as well as making sure they leave in an orderly manner, without making a lot of noise and that sort of thing. Capacity changes will also be monitored by bouncers. Last call will be announced at 12, 25 a.m. by the DJ on busy nights and by the bartenders in both the dining and dancing sections. If there is no DJ music entertaining that evening, the bartenders will be responsible for announcing the last call. Bouncers and the manager will ensure the patrons leave before 1 a.m. Okay, that covers the two main things that we talked about last time. No question? Rob? I was gonna ask, because me and Rob Moore were reviewing the management plan earlier today and notice the last call time. So was it meant to be 12, 25 a.m. instead of 12, 45, or was that correct and accurate? It's meant to give people enough time to finish their drink before they leave at once. Okay, so 12, 25 a.m. is the correct last call time then. What do you think? So I think as we discussed the last meeting, 2 a.m. is when that's when everyone needs to be out of the bar, they just can't be served after 1 a.m. is what is the requirements and amours from my understanding. Okay, but so I guess, so 12, 25 a.m. is the time that you guys are okay with having as your last call. So any time after that, nobody can get drinks anymore. Let's see. We'll do, yes, yeah, 12, 25 a.m. Okay, I just wanna note that because Mr. Chair, in one of the conditions we have it listed as 12, 45 a.m. I saw that. When we get to that, we could definitely change it to reflect the time that the applicants put down. Okay. I have a few questions before I get to you Sarah, if you don't mind. Please go ahead. What in this year, you're committing to seven bouncers during your, what you call your busy period. Recognizing the fact that people get sick, people take vacations, et cetera. Do you have plans to cover to make sure that you have those seven bouncers? Yeah, I love reaching. Yeah, Rhys wants to comment. Yeah, so as far as the hiring process for this specific location, we are hiring an abundance of security staff that are all going to be trained as such. There's going to be abundance though, where we're going to have a pool of people that we are able to call in if necessary. So say we do run into a situation of three, four bouncers also all being sick at the same time. We are going to also have three to four people on standby that we are able to call it. So you will stick with the seven. Yes. At all times. Okay. Yes. And how about there are, you probably recognize that in Amherst there are occasions, and I think of St. Patrick's Day particularly, where it may not be a Thursday through Sunday, but still is extremely busy. Do you want to include some of those holidays that the students seem to get excited about? Yes, those, this is just a basic template, Sunday through Wednesday, starting out, we're assuming it's going to be slow Thursday through Saturday. We're expecting it to be busy, but as the specific holidays come up, we're going to adjust for those. We're going to plan for those staff wise. So perhaps we could adjust this Rob, so that it includes the holidays that we were aware of that the students like to participate in. So I guess when we get to that part, I think it's one of the conditions that we listed too for ours operation. So I guess when we get to that condition, Mr. Chair, we can add that or modify that condition to include that language. Yes, please. All right. Okay. Another thing that's unrelated to what you, I noticed that for snow removal, you were talking about the staff will be removing the snow. I'm assuming the staff does not get in at seven o'clock in the morning. Could you- Sorry. Right. So I think it might be advisable instead of suggesting that you would call on the other that you have a permanent arrangement with a landscaping firm or a snow removal firm to remove snow as early as, typically let's say seven o'clock in the morning, so that there's a pathway by the establishment to get to either of the alleys that are adjacent to it. In our management plan, it says that as an alternative, we will be working with Busy B landscaping for snow removal. But it's all gonna depend on when the snow comes in, when it's piling up. We don't have too much of a problem under the overhang, but as a backup, we have Busy B landscaping. Okay. Well, if you can make sure that they're engaged for snow storms that occur overnight or during the day so that you don't have to call staff in at seven o'clock in the morning to shovel the snow. I'm sure that Reese doesn't wanna get out at that point. Those were my questions. Sarah, you're the first one to raise your hands. Thank you. So under managing patrons, the first paragraph where you talk about the bouncers, you say there will be a minimum of seven, but then you enumerate them and they add up to nine. So do you really mean that you will have a minimum of seven? I mean, excuse me, of nine. And if you do mean seven, which are the two positions that you list in that paragraph that will not be filled? No, it would be Thursday through Saturday, it would be a minimum of seven on the busy nights. But then you specify seven different bouncers. One in the pool table, one in the overhang, one in the red floor hallway, and then two each in three other locations. So that's nine. That is for the busy nights. So you'll have a minimum of nine on busy nights? No, it should be a minimum of seven. I was gonna say, did you find that language in the management plan? I'm looking, it's highlighted. She read it out loud, be a minimum of seven. Bouncers will be assigned zones, et cetera, et cetera. One to the pool table and dining area, one at the overhang, one in the red floor hallway, that's three, two in the dance floor area, five, two at the awning entrance, seven, and two outside. That's nine. Yeah, from what it sounds like, it looks like there might be four bouncers outside of the awning entrance, or at least outside of it directly. Was that put in there intentionally or? Well, it says a minimum of seven bouncers. So yeah, I mean, nine would be fine. But it's your plan, I don't understand if you only have seven, which of those positions that are then listed are not gonna be filled by one of those bouncers? Cause you list nine positions. So if we only have seven, then we would only put one bouncer. We would take away two of the bouncers in those areas that, so we would only put one in each, one standing in the awning area, and then one standing in the awning entrance, like the awning entrance and then the overhang. And then if it's, if we feel like we need to add more, we'll add more, but seven was our kind of our minimal, like our minimum expectation for us. Well, that's fine, but I think then you need to match. So I would say change that two bouncers at the awning entrance to one and two outside to one. Okay. And that's seven. Rob can add more if you need them. So I guess, can I make a suggestion, Mr. Chair? Yes, please. So I guess, you know, any updates that the board brings up with the management plan, Andrea and Gabe, you should probably take those down and then submit those changes to the board after the fact. Just so we have the most completed update document with the edits that were suggested from the board tonight. So I guess from what sounds like, instead of having two in those places, you could mention at least one, just so the number and the math adds up to seven as your minimum. And the reason for this is because the board's gonna expect and hold you to that on those busy nights, no matter what, you're gonna have at least seven people bouncing at the establishment. Now my, what I have to say to that is, let's say it's not as busy as we expected. I'm definitely not gonna be paying bouncers to stand around and do nothing. It's say we have, instead of 300 people showing up to fill both capacities, maybe we have a hundred people show up one night. I'm not gonna have seven bouncers for a hundred people. So on a busy night, if it's a busy night, I understand the literature says Thursday to Saturday, busy night, we'll have a minimum of seven and we can add to that if we feel like we need to. But if it's gonna be, if it ends up being slower, am I gonna be penalized for not having seven bouncers? If it's say, November, whatever it is before Thanksgiving and I have, let's say I have four bouncers instead of seven because the crowd, we cut three bouncers early because the crowd that's showing up wasn't as big as we had expected. I think if you want to do that then you need to, you need to make a change to the management plan. Okay. Because right now- Oh, sorry, go ahead. Right now you're indicating seven as a minimum. Yeah. And to the point of Ms. Marshall, you need to make a change to the number that's indicated where they are but you also have to indicate that if you're gonna have a slow night, you're not gonna stick to the minimum of seven. And then we have to decide whether that's viable or not. I think on a business basis it makes sense. I think it might help if busy and slow were not defined as days of the week which is the only definition so far and rather refer to numbers of patrons because right now you have no wiggle room. You're defining a busy night as Thursday to Saturday and you're gonna have a minimum of seven. If it's really- What we'll do, we'll make it, we'll leave it at seven as our minimum, no matter what, just so that it's stated and it's clear, we will stick to that in our plan and have that be the minimum. Well, I'm not advocating that you waste money just that maybe you elaborate a little bit more on what you mean by slow or busy. Can I go on, Mr. Chair? I have some more questions about this. Of course. Thank you. So the end of that paragraph, it seemed to just break off. Founders at the entrances will be checking IDs and I wonder if you also meant weapons and nips so that the people who come, patrons who enter from that way are checked to the same degree as the people who've come in through the awning. It does state that the patrons at the managing patrons at the entrance section, I believe I made a typo because it does say that in the managing patrons at the entrance section. Well, it refers to the overhang at the end of that paragraph. Those who, sorry, well, okay. All right, about the emergency plan, I think one thing we discussed last time was our concern that patrons might flee up the narrow alley and that that's a trampling hazard or whatever you call. So I would like or I would suggest that the emergency plan say not just that the bouncers will guide the patrons towards Kellogg Street, but they will prevent them from entering that alley because I think that's a dangerous condition. That's it. I assume you're saying under conditions of a fire hazard. Well, whatever the emergency is that it could be, it could be someone comes in with a gun. You don't want people, 50 people cramming into that small alley even if they're not firefighters trying to come the other way. It's just extremely narrow and it doesn't seem safe. Yeah, that's why I put in that section because I realized that the narrow alleyway and or the main street alleyway could become unsafe for patrons. So that's why we added that the bouncers the bouncers will be guiding them towards the Kellogg Street direction along the sidewalk because it's in the opposite direction, direct opposite of those two alleyways and would be safer for them. Well, I think the bouncers should understand why it is important that they not allow patrons to go up the alley, okay? Well, that was happening during training. Oh, Rhys has. Yeah, just to add on to that, the bouncers even in our other location in Westfield and this is the same exact plan that we have in Amherst, we run emergency drills regardless of fire or any other circumstance in which they'll be instructed on how to go about that. So they will be fully informed that those two alleyways are not an appropriate exit for the patrons. So they will be fully informed as to where they need to be guiding the patrons to and what to prevent them from going to. All right, thank you. That's all. Mr. White. Thank you. So I just have kind of two things that I might be asked for a little bit more clarification on. So going back to the last call and I to understand, so last call will be at 12.25 and then there will be no more alcohol served at 1 p.m., correct? Yes, yeah, 1 a.m., yeah. Okay, when will drinks, okay, when will everyone be asked to leave? Well, I think we have one because. So to my understanding, we would start if nobody, people can still reside in the business after one but cannot be purchasing alcohol. We will start asking people to leave around in the 130 range. Reese, what was your thought on that? I think that the most appropriate thing to do, I mean, as far as what we do at the second location also is we do stop serving prior to the actual end of serving hours in Westfield because it makes the patrons leaving plus our lives, just making sure everybody is out of the building by the appropriate time. It makes it a lot easier. So I believe we'll probably stop serving at a specific time before one o'clock and then have everybody start exiting at one o'clock just so we can get everything done in an appropriate time manner. Because it's really not feasible to suggest that drinks are completely done at one but you have a full gin get out at one o'clock. So yeah, the absolute stopping of serving alcohol will be happening before one a.m. And then the patrons will be asked to depart at one a.m. Okay. And the reason why I asked for the clarification on that is, you know, and we touched on this during the site visit myself personally, I worked in restaurants for years, managed bars, designed bars, set them up. Every bar that I've ever established anything longer than a 20 minute interval from last call to when you stop serving, just entices over serving, especially in a very packed, busy environment where your bartenders, last call is already a nightmare. But if you're doing a 35 minute long last call, that's gonna entice people who maybe have already had a few drinks to try to pound as many as they can get in that timeframe. That's why I was a little confused by that. But if you're gonna stop serving before one, then that would make a little bit more sense. But yeah, that's why I was a little confused on that because yeah, that tends to be the habit of individuals at last call because the whole thought in a bar when you're drinking is, oh no, we can't get alcohol anywhere else. We need to pound as many drinks as we can in 35 minutes is a lot of time to pound drinks. Yeah. Yeah, so the, yeah, in that management plan, we'll stick with our 1225 and then to the bartenders and Reese's discretion, we're not gonna, I'd say probably using their best judgment with individuals as per the tip certification that they will all have. They will monitor who, everyone, every person they give a drink to. And I'm very certain they're gonna all just give whoever comes up until that last minute that we will allow everyone to be served. It won't be more than just one, or it will be just one drink for the people that can make it. I have anything to say. As someone, like I said, who worked in bars for a decade in a clothe, those bars over 4,000 times, I do have a little bit of apprehension with kind of buying into that because like I said, I know what a nightmare last call is. No, absolutely. Is the establishment. Yeah. But kind of moving on to my next concern, which is going to the bouncers, the seven bouncers, as a business owner, as someone who ultimately wants to make a profit. The wording on that does concern me a little bit because like I'll just give an example. Since we're going by days as defining what's busy and what's not, where the night club will be in operation and situations where maybe it's off season and it's a night where we've deemed it to be busy just strictly off of the night termination. There are going to be nights where there are 20, 30 people on that set. So you're going to have a bouncer for every three patrons. Like that doesn't seem financially feasible. No, and like, no, and I completely, I agree with you, but the, you know, it's how it is in Westfield. We adjust, like I'll have a scheduled group of bouncers to come in, the manager will, you know, at a certain time, he will make a decision, you know, once we know that, like we've done this, you know, repetitiously many, many times, we'll know that for that specific night in that part of the year, we can, you know, we can firmly say, okay, we'll be safe with, you know, getting rid of one bouncer and sticking to what we have currently, you know, also having those crowd managers at, you know, still, they're all crowd managers certified, but, you know, making sure that we have enough to cover that group of people that is there will be our, you know, our biggest, you know, our biggest focal point in that regards. But if it- I agree with you. Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. No, no, no, you go right, yeah. And I agree with you. Like I said, I mean, the most feasible way to run an operation like this is of course, you have your scheduled staff, you plan for a busy night, and if that's not what's delivered, then you cut as needed. But that's not the way the language is current. Okay. The way the language is currently is seven bouncers. And I don't see how, you know, if you had it, I'll just make it a round number in the fact that it's 21. If you had 21 bar patrons and seven bouncers, that's one bouncer for every three patrons. Yep. You know, and I'm not by no means trying to tell you that I run your business, but I know how to run these businesses and that's not a way to make profit. No, definitely not. We will, yeah, we will readjust that wording so that, you know, in the cases of nights that, you know, we've staffed it to what we would expect it to be, and it turns out to be a lot slower than we will, you know, we'll verb it in a way where it's we're making staff cuts so that way we can, you know, come out on top of the profit for the evening. I think just my two cents, I would agree with Ms. Marshall that a much more feasible way to probably do it would be to base the number of bouncers off the number of patrons at set times. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, that's all I have. I just to continue with that, you certainly will find that those periods of school vacation, you're empty. Ms. Marshall and I drive by the spoke all the time and during school vacations, there's no one in there. So I don't think you're gonna be any less, more any busier than they are during school vacation periods. So I think you may have to indicate some exceptions to the rule of seven, or else you're boxing yourself in. Yeah, no, I've heard from many business owners that in town that the summertime, it dies out. Christmas break, it dies out. It's usually only when the students are in town that there seems to be a strong following. So we can, we will verb it in a way that it will staff according to the time of year and on those times that where it does get, where the students go home, we will adjust it accordingly. Okay, Mr. Slovidar, you were next. Okay, I'd like to get some clarification on a few things involving hours of operation and which side will or will not be open. Your plan states that, I wanna make sure I get this right on juggling something here, that the hours of operation, Sunday through Saturday, three p.m. to one a.m. So that's every day. And then you identify, you make a distinction between busy and slow nights. Have you decided that the club side will be closed on the slow nights or will both sides be open every night, every day and night? Both sides open. Both sides open all the time. But it also says in here, under managing patrons at the entrance, Sunday through Wednesday, patrons will enter through the overhang entrance. Sunday through Wednesday, three p.m. until midnightish and Thursday, three to seven, patrons will enter through the overhang entrance. So if the, yet I think I remember that if both sides are open, the overhang entrance will be closed and entrance will be through the awning side where people will have their IDs checked for their age. This also brings up one other one. I might as well ask it now so that we can, so I can get all these out. On the restaurant side, are you going to permit underage people who come in with let's say a parent or someone older or will anyone under 21 simply never be allowed on either side? I thought I remember from the last hearing that when it is slow, that people will come into the restaurant and play pool and watch things and do whatever and that younger people would be allowed in if they were accompanied by a parent or something. If parents wanna go in and get bar food and have a beer and shoot pool, would they be allowed to bring their teenagers in with them? In which case they are then in the building and I don't understand the flow. So my understanding is mass state law, you cannot allow, you can't have under 18 or under 21 persons in a bar. I know in Connecticut, you can have, I know we're, it's kinda just on a tangent, but Connecticut has laws where if you're 18, you can have a wristband over it or like 18 plus, you can have a wristband and still be in the bar. But from my experience, we in Westfield, I just don't allow anyone under 21 to have a wristband. That in the bar at any time, I think with different licenses like say in Applebee's, you can drink there, it's a restaurant, but they're mainly centered around being a restaurant. We're mainly centered around being a fun bar, dancing, drinking, pool playing atmosphere that doesn't really, we do serve food, but it's not to the capacity of like a chain restaurant that has a liquor license. So any question that I had about controlling the movement of a potentially underage person from the restaurant side to the club side is not a reason for concern because there won't be anybody under 21 anywhere on the premises. Correct. Oh, okay, good, then that's okay. So have you decided on slow nights? Are you going to, is the club side going to remain open? So slow nights, we will have, we'll have an extra bouncer there as needed, but we're gonna be mainly just focusing on the side that, because I know I understand there's alcohol, there's that's still over there. We could take precautions and just remove the alcohol from that room. And that way, if people do end up going over to that side, they're not, it's more so just kind of standing room, it's not necessarily, we can still play music, but we won't necessarily be serving beer and liquor over on that side. As opposed to just closing it. If you have, I'm going back to something that Mr. White mentioned, if you, if there are 20 people on the club side on a Tuesday, are you really going to stay open till one in the morning with 20 people? It all, like I said, it'll depend on, I can, I can verbalize it again with kind of piggybacking it with the seven bouncer scenario. We will approach each night as, like from a safety standpoint first being, first and foremost, but also a financial standpoint of, do we really need X amount of bar centers and X amount of balancers and bar centers present if we can cut a couple of them to at least cut down on our losses for the evening. But if it's a very slow night, you intend to still have the space open and available for people to go in there and listen to music or hang out. Yes, sir. So both sides will be open, but that, yeah, that that awning door will be locked so we can control the, you know, the influx of customers so that we were able to positively identify each one that comes in. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Yes, sir. Ms. Marshall. Am I muted? No. I think I recall, we must have been in the project report not in the management plan that you are not in fact allowed to install a door to close off the nightclub side from the restaurant side. Is that because that has to be open for emergency exit? Is that true? Yes. Yes. Okay. So you cannot, so you can, I mean, you could put a stanchion with a sign that says closed, you know, but you can't physically isolate that space. That's correct. I see. Okay. Rob? I just wanted to make the applicants aware that I'm taking notes of all the recommended updates and changes to the management plan. I plan on sending it to them tomorrow. Just want to make that clear. So, you know, we don't lose track of anything. Thank you. Do we have any other questions or comments from the board members? If not, we'll open it up to open the floor to public comments. Do we have anyone in attendance, Rob? No. I saw one person, but they're gone. They disappeared a long time ago. Okay. Guess we're way too boring for them. Well, then we have to go to the public meeting. Since we've gone through the public comments, we'll now enter into the public meeting portion of the hearing. The public meeting allows the board members to deliberate on the petition before us. No public comment will be accepted and the applicant may speak only if answering questions from board members or providing further clarification. I'll ask the board members to provide their thoughts, comments, and opinions on the petition before us. I'll provide mine. I think we have, if I'm correct, quite a lot of editing that needs to be done to the plan. I'm not quite certain if we're ready to vote tonight. Can I get other opinions from other board members please? Mr. White. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yeah, that would, I would share that sentiment but to the applicant, I would just say, I know this whole process can be frustrating but the reason why I mentioned my issues on that is because you are gonna be held to this and from a business perspective, I wanna make sure that you're there for as long as you wanna be there and as long as you're having a good time and making profit and that you're not having struggles with the town going full. So once again, I realize this is an arduous process but it's one that I feel like we need to make sure we get right. We don't want to have to hold you to anything that is going to reduce on your margin significantly. So I think you have to be careful in what you, in the maturity you give us and I think that with the assistance of Mr. Wachilla and Mr. Roura, you can probably work through this pretty easily. I'm sorry that it's gonna take longer than you want it to. At least from my opinion and I get the impression of Mr. Waits also. Any other comments from the board members? Is there any reason to begin talking about findings and conditions or should we wait until we have the revised management plan? I think we're gonna have to wait until we have the revised plan. I don't think we can put findings and conditions on something that we haven't thoroughly. No, I didn't mean that we would vote on them but. No, I understand what you're saying. Other issues might come up and I don't know. I'm happy to wait. We have enough questions about exactly how the management will work. If that's the case, do we need to have a vote on this Rob in a date certain? Yes, you do. We have to pick a date certain and then we have to, the board has to vote to continue to that date certain and then just go from there. So as of right now, the next scheduled regular board meeting is next Thursday, the 25th, but then after that it won't be until February 8th. February 8th already has another public hearing scheduled with another public meeting item on the way. After that's the 22nd. I don't know if the board if for the sake of time wants to do it on off Thursday just so they can get in quicker and not have to wait like a month before they come back before the board. I mean, those potential dates could be the 31st or the 1st of February. It could be sometime next week. I don't know if there's a date that folks have in mind. You said the next scheduled meeting is when? January 25th, there is a public hearing scheduled for that date and I believe Mr. Sloveter might be unavailable for that date. I'm not available on the 25th, but I'm perfectly willing to meet on an off night just out of sympathy for this applicant and maybe a little kindness on our part. So I'd be willing to do something. We've asked a lot of questions and I think it's more, I think what Mr. White referred to is really an important point here. You're going, the applicants are going to be held. If they say a minimum of seven bouncers that's in black and white and that's a minimum. And if they want the flexibility that it seems to me needs to be part of their management plan in order to respond effectively to Mr. White's 21 patrons, then I think once they clean that up, it shouldn't be too much more of a process. And if we lump them onto the solar night, that's going to kill somebody. Yeah. So I'm willing to have another meeting. I don't think it's going to be a three hour marathon whenever we meet. So it should be, if the management plan is rewritten really well, we should be able to get through it pretty efficiently. So Mr. Chair, I recommend the date of February 1st at six as a good alternative or a continued meeting date. That's an off Thursday. That's two weeks from tomorrow. There's nothing else going on that week for the zoning board. I don't know if that date works for anybody. There are no 40B. I'm sorry. Nope. So the 40B doesn't come back again until February 15th. But I will double check that right now. Does that conflict with anybody else's schedule? I would be fine with that. I'm available on the 1st. I can do that. Should we assume that Mr. Judge will not be available then? Yeah, he will have missed two meetings. I don't think he can, I think the four of us can handle it well enough, particularly since we're familiar with this and we know what the management plan should say. And it's just a matter of seeing that it does say that. So it doesn't box you into a corner. Can I just raise or just note that since the school committee, our meeting last night because of this no was postponed till tomorrow, a Thursday. Hopefully that won't happen again. We'll just meet virtually. But I would have to go home. So, and then that would, would that leave enough people on the panel? I'm not sure. Rob? So since Mr. Judge was never in the first meeting or in this meeting, he could technically fill in if somebody were to not be able to make it. So we'd still have a full panel in our web. But Sarah, for now, I would say put February 1st at six in your calendar. And then just to confirm with the board, the next 40B meeting is on the 15th of February at six. I just double checked. So nothing's gonna conflict with that night. But thank you for bringing that up, Sarah. All right. The date certain will be February 1st, 2024. We need to vote on that. Chair votes aye. We need a second. We need a motion. Yes, we need a motion and a second. Thank you very much. I move that we continue this meeting until February 1st. And I would love to second that a motion. Very good. The chair votes aye. Mr. White. Aye. Ms. Marshall. Aye. Mr. Sloveter. Aye. So we therefore are moving this to February 1st and we'll look forward to the revised plan. Yes, Rob. So I'm gonna call, Andrew, I'm gonna give you a call tomorrow at some point. We can go through this together if you want and kind of iron out a lot of the details. I have some notes here from this discussion and we can help you guys produce a final product that we can get you to move forward to the finish line. So do you guys have any questions for us or for me, for Mr. Moore or for the rest of the board? Not at this time. Okay. Okay. Thank you very much. I will skip through my notes. So I believe the next item Mr. Schubert is. We have other business not anticipated within 48 hours. So I believe you have to do general public comment before that and then the other business not anticipated within 48 hours. Are you suggesting that someone is coming? Oh no, but we would at least acknowledge that nobody's been here since then. I guess I can go into the meeting schedule. So I guess the first question, I want to ask people, I already asked this the last meeting, but we do have a public hearing scheduled for next Thursday, January 25th. It's for the Fort River Elementary School. They have to get a special permit for the zoning board in order to build a portion of the school in the flood prone conservancy zoning district. The FPC it's called. And so far, I believe Mr. Slover said he was unavailable. Mr. Marshall, I know you're now in the school committee so it might be a conflict of interest for you. I don't know, did you ever hear back from the town clerk? She said I should call the ethics commission. So I will do that tomorrow. Okay. And then, okay, sounds good. I know Mr. Henry can't make it and Mr. Judge can't make it because he'll still be in Patagonia. So that's three people who won't be able to serve. Mr. White, I know you're in Ireland, but would you be available next Thursday at six or is that busy for you too? It's, I'll make it work. Okay. What about Ms. Greenbaum? Ms. Greenbaum, did you mention her? I have to ask her still, but I imagine she'll say yes because she's very reliable. Craig, are you available next Thursday at six or are you busy? I'm looking. Okay. I'm talking. And we anticipate this will be the only hearing because they have to get a site plan review for the planning board for the majority of their project. So this will be available. You're available? Okay, good. I'm available. So pending, we should have a full panel that date. And has that gone through the conservation commission? So, Rob, do you know if they have to go to the conservation commission for the school project? I wasn't aware of what that was going. Yes, absolutely. I believe they have completed their conservation review, but we can confirm that we're there in tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure I saw something on that. And to my knowledge, they did actually, well, probably right now they have a hearing with the planning board for their site plan review for the school. And again, the site plan review regulates the use as well as the layout of the site. The only thing the zoning board would be concerned with is just allowing for construction within the FPC zone. So if anything, you're just approving their ability to build in that zoning district in addition to a giant pavilion structure, play fields and other place type of structures. Rob, I don't know if you want to add anything else besides what I just mentioned. Just that it's also including the waivers, the modifications that are needed to the floor and height of the structure that is limited to one story and some number of feet, I think maybe 20 feet in the flood probe conservancy district. So there's the construction in the district as well as waivers and modifications to the dimensional requirements. Thank you. And then just quickly going through schedule. I know, Phillip, you look kind of tired, so I don't want to keep you up too long. Yeah, it's colder after midnight, so. So really quickly. So February 1st was the day we just voted to schedule for this hearing continued. February 8th, there is a variance application that'll come before the board. That's for a property near Atkins Farm, Hampshire College, Billings of Residential Dorms. The applicants requesting variance relief from a mixed use building that requires 30% of the first floor to be commercial space and they're asking the shorter than that to 10%. That is the petition for that date. The 15th is the continued hearing date for the Valley CDC 40B project. And then on the 20 seconds, don't think I have anything scheduled at the moment, but there is the potential for one or two applications to come before the board on that date. I have a note on my calendar, maybe it's not accurate that the 22nd of February is a hearing involving the solar project. Yes, you're right. Yes, that's what you're saying. Wait, that is? It is, yes. So that is the continued hearing date for the solar project. And as of right now, we haven't received any new materials from them, but we will soon. So far going out, I have nothing past the 22nd. That's all I had for updates on the schedule. Okay. Okay. In that case, I would entertain a motion to close the meeting. Do I have a move? Mr. Sloveter and do a second. I'd love for a second. Yes. We have two seconds. The motion is not debatable and requires a roll call vote. The chair votes aye. Mr. White. Aye. Ms. Marshall. Aye. Mr. Sloveter. Well, wait, let me think about this. All right, aye, aye. Okay, we are officially adjourned.