 Selam, you're watching NewsClick and 420gms. We're coming to you with a story today that is actually most unfortunate. It's not a great bit of news that you want to read at any time. As you know, if you follow Indian football, the Women's Under 17 World Cup or the Under 17 World Cup for girls is being hosted by India in the coming months. It will be the first women's team from this country to play in any sort of World Cup finals tournament. That team is currently preparing for the upcoming tournament in Europe on an exposure tour. And over the past 3-4 days, what has unfolded is a series of allegations of serious misconduct against the assistant coach of that team, Alex Ambrose, who is an ex-India international men's footballer. He's studying for his pro-license coach on a coaching badge, one of the most well-known faces in the small coaching circuit in this country. Immediately as a response to the news coming out, the All India Football Federation have called him back from the camp. I'm presuming back in India, we tried to reach out to Alex but we were unable to. Pending investigation which will happen shortly, I'm assuming because this is something that everyone has responded to and is taking extremely seriously. It is a case that is quite sensitive because of course on top of everything else, it involves teenage girls in a team environment that where the first priority has to be in each and every case to look after safeguard their interests first, as it should be with all national teams. It's a bit, I think, shameful for us as well that it has taken us, the bravery of these teenagers who have come forward with these complaints to talk about the wider issues that are sort of troubling all of our national teams. There's been a series of incidents over the past few months that reflects a sort of very careless attitude, a very casual attitude towards how these teams are being managed, how the interests of players are being looked after. And this is a team, a women's team that theoretically we're looking at as potentially qualifying actually for FIFA World Cup. So it is also in many senses the tip of the iceberg in terms of what's going on in the overall system of management of women's football in this country, whether it's how the league is organized at the state levels or at the national level, the kind of support that let's say the men's game gets versus the women's game gets, whether it's national teams or club football or other structural things such as broadcasting, even social media. Joining us on this discussion conversation around some of these things are veteran journalists who have covered systemic issues in Indian sport collectively for perhaps the last half century or so. Jayati Basu is here and Leslie Xavier is here. Unfortunately, Alex is someone that we have seen as a player, we know a little bit as a coach and as a person. But without getting into the details of that case because of various reasons including that no investigation has gone on, how does this highlight sort of what has been happening in terms of the general management of these teams of whether it's young boys or young girls, that we are so regularly sending out with trust and faith that whatever else happens their safety and their health is looked after. Yeah, that is true. I think I thought since it is the under 17 team and consist of all minor girls, one should have been far more careful than it is. See, this is something no one can predict, no one can say what is going to happen. I completely understand, I agree with that that the team management can always turn around and say what how did we know about all these things. That is true. But what is unfortunate and what is alarming rather that if you look in the look, if you take out the whatever controversies has happened in the last four or five months, everything is involving the national team. That is something I wonder that why it has happened. So is there something wrong with the management of the national team or the people who are running the national team, they are not being able to manage things in the way it should be. One after one incident if you see this is with the women. So if you go back and list them for us going back to perhaps even before the AFC Asian Cup for Women that India hosted in which that whole bio bubble breach happened and as the host country then we were forced to withdraw from the tournament where we had hopes of qualification from. Before that if you go and give a timeline of some of these incidents. See, previously if you look at the look at history of Indian football then you might find innumerable incidents. What has happened with the national team because national team always used to be on the focus like it is today. And so all this, what you see mismanagement, incident of mismanagement used to come out. But now at the moment when you have a full fledged national team department where more than half a dozen people are working and they are being well compensated by the federation. It's good. So according to all India football federation professionals are working there. Why it should happen? That is the thing. There are people for doing for ticketing there, people for looking after the travel, there are people for looking after the itinerary of the everything is there. So why it is like that? See breach of bio bubble was a huge issue actually. We have spoken about it previously also. Now we are in this show only, here also. So from flying them from Kerala to Bombay at that point of time from there on then on things started deteriorating. So I am not getting into it again because we have already spoken about it rather. So after that this, see only last month in June. That means today is July 1. So I am talking about June middle. The women's team was going to Sweden. So they had a ticket for 19th and the visa for 20th. And the team had to wait at the airport or wherever for a day and so much money was lost because of another ticketing, fresh tickets had to be done. Why should all these things happen? Why should all these things happen? This is too grave an incident, what you just spoke about. But like you say when India was playing at Hong against in the AFC qualifiers in Calcutta. How many tickets will be issued, whether 12,000 or 15,000 and 15,000? There was so much drama over it and we got to know that some people have said, Oh, nobody will come to watch matches in Calcutta. So only 12,000 you print. Later on we found 50,000 is coming for every match. So why should and the national team captain had to come out and appeal and saying that more tickets should be printed so that more people can come. So why should all these things happen? My question is previous incidents, okay. The federation was small, they had not much of money. Everything was done by the people, amateur people who are looking after things but now it is not like that. You have money, you have good department, you have staff strength, you have facilities, all the facilities needed for it. Then why should it happen? Somebody has to stand up and take responsibility for this. Yeah, fair enough, fair enough. And of course I also have to say that it's not only the national team though that is sort of plagued by this issue. Even at the league levels, very similar sort of things happen. I'm not aware really of the inside happenings of the FSDL operated league. I'm sure they are much different and far more well managed. But whether it's the iLeague or the IWL which we have seen from very close quarters. Which you will be able to say because since you have watched all of them for the last couple of years. It is system wide. At the IWL for example, okay, you try as much as possible but only in even the bio bubble itself, it was supposed to be a tournament technically that was held in a bio bubble. But it was a pretty farcical bio bubble. So and yeah, as was testing procedure because I think the idea behind it is not to look at the west interest of the athletes in question. It is to say, if we are doing it in the bio bubble, then there will be no press, no media coverage, no spectators. So as soon as we want to do our tournament, we can do it. No one will have to look at it. So you absolutely, it's like you have everything inside a closed room. So that, you know, well managed on paper. In the newspaper, press release will say that he hit so many goals. The result was this. And he won in the end. So which doesn't take into consideration at all all of the aspects that athletes are going through. And the problem still remains that this is as much of this kind of misconduct is also a question of misuse of power, because these people coaches are and for decades you have covered the relationships between athletes and coaches, how irrespective of the kind of mental and physical torture a coach is inflicting on an athlete. That coach is meant to still be considered, you know, the greatest gift and equated with some kind of God like status and all of those things. This is a very sensitive issue, but also an issue where the Federation can come and say to that there was no way that we could know that such things will happen within the team. Because as far as they are concerned, where it was a former player and he has been coaching and he has been with the team and things were going on. So I will use screen that. But for me, that's not how the approach should be because we have seen these kind of problems coming out time and again, not just in India or flight actually. And it's actually a welcome change that all these issues are coming up in various sport like for instance cycling last month, just last month. And before that across the world like in the USA where where you have sports and the sports organization is much more systematic, but still issues came out in gymnastics of systemic systematic abuse by coaches of young girls. So the only way out of this is to approach this in a very systematic structural way where you have valves where things can be blocked at a very nice in state. If at all issues coming out, you give the confidence to the young athletes, girls or even boys that coaches or the management or the person involved in this will not have a say in their life or careers. That is the biggest threat that these athletes have. How do you do that? That's exactly what I'm saying. The whole thing is about power, right? Because this is not, a lot of the girls are coming from the most marginalized sections, right? From remote parts of the country, not great financial conditions, all of those things. So this is the only way to get out of a cycle of poverty, essentially. And the constant threat is that if you don't do this, you will get out of the team. You won't get to play. Even with the league, we spoke to almost 20 or so players who are participating in the IWL, maybe even more. At the end of the day, their attitude as players is at least we are getting a chance to play. But somehow, organizers of tournaments and federations have also taken on the same attitude. That they are playing. And as if that is some sort of favor that is being done. And because so few actually, and the sad part is this, that like of the millions of children in our country, we keep saying that we are one of the youngest populations in the world, etc. So few get a chance to play regularly. To make a career is a secondary thing. But even to get a chance to play, you are willing to make all kinds of sacrifices. I mean, whether it's traveling thousands of kilometers away from your home and living with strangers and all of these things that these athletes try and do. So that threat, that danda that is always being wielded, makes it so difficult for athletes to come out themselves and say, look, this is what's happening. I mean, today, why are the three of us sitting and having this conversation without the presence of someone who has been through the system? Because even today, there are gag orders also in place, senior team, national team players who are also currently part of a national team camp. They have been told not to speak on the subject. And fair enough, okay, an investigation needs to be carried out and there doesn't. That's not the point. The point is, if these players cannot even come out in support of a child who has gone through obviously a traumatic scenario, a traumatic situation where everyone gets caught up in what the result of it is or what will happen next. And even we are talking here about systemic changes that need to happen. But some focus first has to be on that individual or those individuals who have gone through whatever they have gone through. So, because we don't have some, I think we received one message from a group of member associations of AFF, which is the State Association essentially. One of, at least in this statement, one of the demands was to replace all male staff on all teams with female staff of all women's teams. Now, that is a knee-jerk reaction that doesn't again address any of these issues. But that is the only thing, the quality will be compromised, could be compromised. No, I disagree with that. It's not about the question of quality because we will have good women coaches come out. We can't assume that women coaches would be lesser than male staff. No, at some places, that would mean to them. So, the problem here is that it doesn't inspire confidence either because that's not the solution. We are shutting out the problem and we are just doing something else of a gimmick just to plug the hole. But the hole is larger. Like if there is a gag order on senior players to talk out about this thing, talk out in whatever ways that they want. You are not saying that they have to narrate the things that they went through as juniors or whatever. But they could at least speak out in support saying that we have trust in the Federation that they would do justice to the investigation and all that. So, the problem here is not finding who is guilty and investigating it. That should be done at all. But the larger idea is that how do you get these people? And we are not, of course, the entire structure is flawed. There is a problem right from the grassroots. Like for instance, we have had this discussion before that at the National Women's Football Championship, which was held in Kerala. The stadium did not have bathrooms or changed rooms for the women to change into their kids. It's like some portable loos were kept and then it became so dirty that it can't be used at all. And this is happening in Kerala where you would like to imagine that people have a larger civic sense on these matters. So, it never happened. So, again, the same thing. The organizers were thinking that we are organizing it. We are letting the women play. That's a big deal in itself. But the larger problem is, I mean, the larger thing here is that this has happened in the national team, which is a controlled environment, which can be a great environment if at all you choose to make it so. So, these girls in question, the under 17 team, they have been in the system since they are under 15 days. It's been a 2-3 year journey with the national team setup in camps. Camps were disbanded because of COVID-19 as well, but within that system they were there. So, you nurture their psyche as well because you are not just building a group of girls to kick ball and score goals. We are also building individuals who are capable of giving it a fight on the playing field and also become ambassadors of the game to a larger audience, young girls, as well as the society, as examples, saying that we are women footballers and we are like, for instance, someone like a Megan Repp, you know, coming from a different system, but she still has to fight. She still had to stand up there. They had to file a case for equal pay. So, the fight is always there. But where does she get that confidence? Maybe from the societal setup there and maybe also within the team dynamics or the federation dynamics, there are things which give them confidence for that. So, what the AIF should be doing or national federation should be doing is that when you get these individuals, these young, talented girls or boys into the system, you build them on all friends and also give them assurance with officers in place or individuals. It can be in the case of women's team. It can be a woman so that the things are easier for them to talk out and all that and ensure that regardless of who it is that confidence is given that you speak out, we will take cognizance and we will take action or we will ensure that this is investigated properly. That kind of confidence building will only happen if the federation itself changes its way of working and become transparent in its idea. Gag orders should be out of the question. If it's a matter of indiscipline, if some irresponsible things have been spoken about, then you correct the individual. But as youngsters, you don't put a gag on their mouths and then you expect them to learn and evolve and become responsible individuals or players at the latest stage. So that kind of approach change should come in to address these matters, try and read out these matters. Of course, a societal issue is there as well as these abuse, misuse things creeping up. Yeah, no, but that's why that is exactly why because these things exist in wider society. I think when, let's say an actual team comes to your home and approaches your parents and says to you, we will take care of your child, we are taking them around. You assume that because it is exactly the controlled environment that you said, that you are making a good decision, not the opposite. And so I guess also because the new constitution is being thought of, drafted, actually now it's probably beyond all of those stages. But I think special, maybe some things can be added because there are best practices, at least some kind of established practices, some kind of safeguards. Everything takes time because it is always... It takes time and it has to be played. Because the entire system is based on competition in the end and like any advantage in that competitive process I guess is what athletes are forced to kind of more often than not. Otherwise you do end up losing your career and your prospects and that has an India massive impact on even then your family and the next generation. So these are not easy choices to make. So I guess it will be tough. It's a good thing. I think in the recent past, about the last year or so, the Players Association of India, which is the union that represents the interests of players. So it's not part of the All India Football Federation. It's an external union which you can sign up to and become a member of. They have started to work with women players as well. They have an ex-player, Anisha Chavan, who's heading their sort of women's department, liaising with women players and all of that. So there are... I believe this Constitution has a players council provision. Yeah, there are players council also very important. Provision is there and it will be elected like it has happened in cricket. There will be elected players council. So they have given anybody of India have played more than 15 matches. They have to be members. In the last 20 years, those who have played for India, something I'm not very clear about it. I just read it but forgot it. So there is a provision for players council in the proposed constitution, which is going to the Supreme Court. Unless it is approved, it's not, of course. But there is a provision. So and also then take steps, I think, to tell players that these are the means by which you can address someone, you can speak to someone basically. That knowledge and that helps in a long way. Also, the other problem that I have felt in my experience in the system as well as as a journalist is that how do you control the... I mean, see, for a federation who has employed a coach or a manager in a team setup and if that manager or coach has a longish tint in that setup, he or she sort of becomes the king of that field of that. And it's treated like that as well. So I would control your future. I would control your career. So the same thing happened in, I'm just diagnosing a little in the case of cycling and the case of abuse that came out recently. The coach in question, R.K. Sharma has been dismissed and investigations are on. He allegedly called the parents of the female cyclist who complained saying that now you arrange for a wedding because a career is done. She has nowhere to go in cycling anymore. So that's the... And you're threatening the parents of the athlete. So the kind of psychological trauma that the athlete herself being in the camp or being in the hotel room, hotel where this man is roaming around it. Of course, that's how, across the world, sports systems work, but across the world, federations have evolved itself trying to block these things in some way possible. And that, I mean, it is tough because how do you control power? Because, I mean, visual thinking in the federation itself, because a new constitution maybe will help. But you know, in the past 10 years, how top officials in the federation have been controlling the federation. So that trickles down to at the barest local level also. The district administration president would be the king in his country. So if the problem is actually to be polluted and problem requires complete whole of the system, which is probably impossible, but yeah, some changes should happen. Yeah, actually, this is a kind of problem. If we're talking about this under 17 women's girls women's team thing, that problem is, of course, that it will happen. It's happened before it will continue to... Because it's such things do happen. Only thing is that how you control it. If you have to bring it down to minimum, that is a very important thing. And for that, you have to be very careful while choosing the support stuff, especially for the minor girls. I think you have to be very careful about it. See, even there will be slip up. There is no doubt about it. See, you can't read somebody's face or mind what is there. But more tried and tested people should be allowed to get into it, I think. That is there. Probably. And probably a screening process that requires to look at larger... That's what he said. That's the coaching condition. How to control it. No, the idea... In fact, after I saw this press release, I spoke to a couple of players who are currently in the system. And I think the response or the approach was, we'll take the lesser of the two evils. There will always be this power dynamic between the coach and the athlete. Because the coach's career is as linked to the athlete's career as anything else and vice versa in some ways. So that power dynamic will always exist. And there will always be some elements of corruption in the system. Where one coach will maybe say, I'll select you because you can give me some extra, some money or something else. But if, at least to a large extent, having for a temporary period, only women as support staff and as coaching staff, then if that at least stops it from being sexually peritory and getting into that territory, then as players, we'll take the lesser of the two evils. In any case, like you said, the struggle that these athletes, like everyone else has to go through is real and it doesn't end. So why should they also add the workplace? The ILO even has recently adopted occupational safety and health as one of part of the workers' bill of rights. So governments now are mandated to ensure that... And you have to consider these not just workers but I mean minor workers, like you said, and so therefore especially important. So with all of this coming together, I think it's a good time for some safeguards to definitely concretely be put into the system. And hopefully thanks to the bravery of these girls who have brought up the issue, it will be heard and get the ball rolling at the very least. We have pretty much that I think wraps up this episode of 420 Grams. We wanted to talk a little bit about the meeting between EGOS team as the head coach of the national team who is scheduled to be on the show tomorrow. At some point we will confirm the time, I mean be on the show and we'll probably record that and put it out a little bit later because we're not sure when exactly he'll be free and available and all of those things. But Jairidha, just to wrap up a quick bit on what's happening with the contract. See they were supposed to... I believe the coach was supposed to meet, not meet, to have a talk over the Zoom or whatever, virtually to the COA. It must have been done but what has happened, I have no idea unless the Federation people give suppressions or whatever, somebody speaks out we know. But I think the extension should be done and why not because even in this Ambrose case he has been given an extension last month only or most of the support staff of national team has got extension for one year. So why not the national coach can be given, I don't understand. I think he should be given. At this moment I have a feeling that there are some forces trying to scuttle his chances. I'm very open about it. I think because he has been talking too much he must be hurting some vested interests somewhere. So they are trying to pull him down. Well, I have no evidence of it but I have a feeling. Probably you should rephrase the thing saying that scuttle the national team's chances because a coach who has been with the team for two years I understand that there was lockdown and break and no real but I believe that he has tried his players he was mixing and matching combinations and all that and he has probably hit on a... done something atleast. Which can probably see India do a better show at the Asian Cup. At the moment when finally things are looking like looking up looking like looking up I would say. So he should be... if he is get disturbed or he is being then it would be very unfortunate. I think he should be given at least till the Asian Cup tournament he should be there. Fair enough. We have an agreement on 420 grams on that issue and we maybe will have more clarity on it very soon with EGOS team match. With that I bring this episode to a close. Thank you very much for joining in. Please do write in, send your comments, subscribe, follow, share, all of that. Goodbye.