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To the outside world my mum was a doting parent but behind four walls I'm afraid it was nothing like that I was abused in every shape and form and I didn't know them in them days I just thought that was life that was the life that we all have you know I mean and then she sometimes used to touch me inappropriately apart from the beatings and it was everything was mental torture I got told a lot of times you shouldn't be here and should be here that was my sister who died I was told a lot of times we don't want you and I think that it all added up in the end and to be fair I think that I've done well I come out of it as good as I have done considering what it was like and I can only describe it looking back now El I had loads of good people around me and to be fair like I've said it not every one of them was a fighter but they all had amazing bottle and they would never leave me like I would never leave them there's no one on this planet can say I ever left the man down if a man went down I picked him up who's their strongest family ever come up against I think Mill will I think we all want a couple of them games we played how many people oh more than 300 a side you know I mean but they had a lot they they when we went over there they used to all turn out like I said the two things that I regret is not keeping in touch with my daughter the other one was being born they're the two things I regret and I couldn't change you know I didn't ask to come into this world if I was given the choice I wouldn't simple and people say yeah all that and never got done no no find somebody who says they did me yeah that's the challenge I put out to all you all your people are listening find someone find someone who give me a good idea boomerine and today's guest we've got Bill Gardner how are you Bill thanks James yeah thanks for coming on lovely West Ham legend but in the tenancies many many years very well known in the game first and foremost how are you brother I'm all right yeah I'm all right thank you you've just released a new book as well the man the myth the legend yeah come out on November it's been doing well this is your second book um yeah yeah I don't want me Cass yeah how was that then what the first one of the second one the second one was I wouldn't have done a second one but the federal me right at Abe I know him as mozza he didn't want to do the typical football old man books and I didn't want to do that either I wanted to tell people what my life was like that led to that you know that led to me to be the way maybe I was which was the way my life's mapped out it's all down to the beginning yeah you've led a very interesting life homeless as well as I could yeah I was a tough upbringing I always go back to the start of my guest bowl where you grew up and how it all began to get a better understanding of yourself I was born in all church in Essex um my dad worked at folds and my mum didn't work a lot and I was the only child of them they'd lost their daughter before me and um I saw like come along and I I wasn't wanted but to the outside world my mum was a doting parent but behind four walls I'm afraid it was nothing like that I was abused in every shape and form not by me dad my dad never laid hand on me but uh my mum certainly did she used to bash me with a brumandle and this big lump of rubber and I used to get it for doing nothing you know I wasn't a bad kid um she got she got the police to come around once I don't know why but she got him to come around once and from about 10 to 14 when I left the cop never stopped bothering me he seen me on a corner of a road he seen me playing football he try and pick fault and um in all fairness I was doing nothing more than any other kid was doing at that time and then my mum had a serious operation and she walked out while she was still under the anaesthetic and walked home from ronford all church and her night dress was covered in blood and uh it we think it turned her and uh in all fairness um I couldn't live much longer there because she tried to stab me and me dad one night she come through the door with a knife bread knife it was like seen from the shining as my dad said you got to go see if you don't go she's going to kill you so I give it about two or three weeks got together a few bits and give it some thought thought where am I going to go and I lived in a graveyard in a church in allgate and I lived in there for 10 months except for one night when I managed to get into a refuge but the one night was enough for me because you have to hold your things because they try and nick them off you I had a bag they tried to nick it so I got talking to a couple of people and they said if you want some work you go to finchley road station in the morning and you wait there and the builders come around and say you know they want three or four men and I was big for me age really was you know and um I worked with some gypsies from Hartfordshire worked for them quite a few months and learnt how to do tar macking and laying curbs in a road which I had my own business in the end doing that and I done a pit fighting where you go down in a whole 12 foot by 12 foot going a ladder and the one who gets out wins the money people bet on you and all that and I done quite well with that money and I had four fights I won four but one of them was a brute he looked like the bloke from uh in the film the 300 when they pulled the bloke along with the chains he looked like him and I thought at first I looked I thought oh no what you've done here you idiot you know and then I thought well look at the state of him his ears were battered his nose his head I thought now I can do him and then I went out there I waxed him first of all in the bollocks and he was wearing them as earrings and I thought well and as his head come down I caught him with a beauty and I knew with the second one he was gone and I didn't take a little bit as he put his hand up say he had enough and that that was how it used to end you ever said enough or you knocked him out so you said enough and I climbed out and grabbed me down and got away a bit rapid you know because when you got all them sort of characters out there they're not the gentlemen you know I mean they're so I started off and I said I had the money in the wall in the church there was a hole no one would have ever found it in fact some of it was still there three years later when I went back and I used to use part of it to live and it was a lot of money it was a fair bit of money at the time I mean a lot of people said me you could have got a flat for that money bought a flat in them days for that money and I most probably could have done but if I walked into a building society or someone said here is six grand cash they're on the phone with the police and as I was on the run I couldn't do that so I just had to be try and be a bit wise keep the dough and then when things sorted out a few years later I bought me first car with it that was a disaster why but it never went I had a car that never went I think half a daily sold it to me but no it was all right it was all right I didn't regret it was a learning curve for me I've still been sad though about it to be not uh yeah it was um I had a bit of cover over me that concrete from the the church and I used to obviously you learn very quick when you're outside what to do so what I did I had to cardboard I used to sit on cardboard um I had two changes of clothes and when I used to work um if I got wet the first thing I used to do was try and find a swimming pool go in a swimming pool get clean wash me clothes and then you hang them up on uh a nail that was in the wall to a fence and but in the winter they don't dry so you put your clothes on in the morning just a little bit less wet than it was the night before that was tough and I used to sit there and I'll be honest with you I used to get tearful I know something where'd you go from here and I could have gone to drink and drugs but I never did in fact I never took a drink until I was about 50 I've always been teetotal and I was like trained and that and um you know now I'm 67 nearly 68 and but being outside in all them weathers it don't do you know good in the end you know what when I see my boys going out riding up it on I say look get some get a coat on I think as you can always take it off because you end up being why did you not drink then bulls up because your mum and dad drank no they never drunk never drank both never drunk um I just never liked the taste in all fairness um it wasn't for me and drugs weren't for me and uh my I I regard my life as being really boring I know some people find my life but I believe my upbringing was terrible but I don't think my life's been that terrible and we've been the same girl now for nearly 40 years and we're really happy I've got two three kids but my daughter I don't see no more it's from my first marriage and uh in all fairness I've got two regrets and one of them is not keeping in touch with her um trying to get through the barriers that were put up for me not to see her so at the end of the day that's how that worked and then obviously I used to look forward the six days I was stuck they are doing that I used to work five sometimes three if they didn't need me obviously I won't get no work for the day and uh I just used to look forward to going to football with West Ham I regarded my mates at West Ham as my family what about schooling did you ever go to school bro yeah I went to school I mean I'll be honestly truthful with you I'm uh I'm not an uneducated person because I used to read a lot I used to read a lot of books on a lot of subjects and when I went back to school and I done the tests because once I once they captured me the social services captured me in the graveyard they put me in care in all church and I went back to school uh obviously had a lot of catching up to do but I used to finish in the top three in the class and I never went to school so you know I thought I was old enough maybe reading the books as Daniel's some good you know I'm very good at history geography um general knowledge hopeless at maths hopeless English to be fair with you but you know I'm quite good on them subjects and I always had a big interest in sport and football you know we're doing the boxing and a taekwondo wrestling I've done a bit of everything I really enjoyed it when did you fall in love with West Ham I was five years old my dad was a Spurs fan he used to take me to Tottenham back in 61 sorry I was seven years old um and uh they had a great team they had a wonderful and they they they they was good but I never felt comfortable there I never felt comfortable there I never did and uh he'd go Tottenham one week West Ham another um I think he only used to take me to West Ham the other week to get get out the house away from my mother you know so at the end of the day when I went over there I really enjoyed it I loved the people I felt at home you know and then as I got older and I met met different people from different generations I regarded it as my family you know I've been let down a few times by a few people over there but basically they've all been all right yeah that's the main thing but yeah I've got friends that go back 50 years that I've known play football with them you know I mean as a kid but and they're still me friends now and you know you you know yourself as you get older you make new friends new generations of people I'm now friends with kids that are the sons of deads who's deads I was friendly with so it's gone like three generations which is amazing yeah a long time yeah what is did you get off the streets bow well when they captured me I was uh 15 uh I was 14 and a half when I went I was 15 and a half I was I went back to school the first term of the other year they took me back to school because obviously they wanted a see if I learnt anything you know what I was gonna do and the careers lady said to me the most you can hope for is a job in Rumpford market and I thought was up here I'll show you don't do better than that and I did so uh you know run my own business I had a few people working for me and uh had a great reputation I had the best reputation on CheckerTrade.com and um when I retired a couple of years ago I've given the business to my son James and he's doing well good name yeah what business were you doing bow we do um hard landscaping like uh driveways patio's turfing and fencing in the Surrey area where I live now and when did you start because I know that like the football really goes in the ICF you've never really associated with that no no I was never in the ICF people I put me in about 30 books saying I was in there I was not even the police know Nick me said I was but I was not I've never been in a gang I go my own path I go my own route and that's the only way then like anything else like you said before we had the interview is trust and I couldn't trust many people I do now I do I trust quite a few but you know at the end of the day I um I was a loner I was a loner that had a lot of friends a lot of people that liked me used to hang around with me but we wasn't no part of any named gang and we never sat around no table plotting violence we went to football and if somebody tried to stop us going to football that was it that's when it went off and I think that can be said the same for a lot of teams and a lot of people he said I wasn't having it I couldn't uh stand there and watch my friends or I called my family getting hurt you know there's right and wrong I know right from wrong you know I mean and uh at the end of the day I thought you know this is the path I got to take and it was the path I did take and it led to me being nicked and 16 weeks and two days in the eye court on trial till I found out the evidence has been fabricated and uh that was that but they still never forget you know they I can sit in a stand sometimes and you feel like somebody's got their eyes on you and I look down and they're looking up you know waiting for me to do something or say something wrong but they won't get it I'm afraid uh they got no chance of that so they might as well look somewhere else you know air public anime number one at some point one stage I think I was in the top five in the country that they was after but they had to frame me up by telling lies you know and I ain't saying I didn't do it because I just said I did but not when they said I did yeah I wasn't doing it when my boy was born that was it for me I didn't want him to grow up without a dad I didn't want him to go to school and say your old man's in prison I didn't want it you know some people I I'm proud of that thing yeah I've been the neck of my boys like yeah not me I don't want that for my family do you remember your first tear up bull first tear up was at primary school yeah I remember yeah with another lad there I was got friendly with um one of them things then I joined the boxing club and started doing a bit there on part boxing club and nice people did you enjoy it the fighting or was it just to more to defend yourself especially being homeless I enjoyed the fighting I enjoyed the fighting I enjoy competition you know I mean I like competition combat yeah yeah what about for the first time um it was a thing that had to be done for me it wasn't a case of taking a backward step you know if you have some loads of them in front of us bouncing up and down they didn't bounce up and down too much you know I mean but like I say yeah I um just the way it was life was like that for a lot of us for every team you know I'm good mates with a Chelsea fan now he was about the same age as me and he said the same you know it was our generation of things every generation has something done it I mean I think this current generation or wired up on their iPads and their phones and then getting out their knives and sharpen them what I could make of it where every day you hear of a stab in somewhere or other do you remember your first tear up with West Ham I must have been 12 12 yeah 12 yeah I think 12 away somewhere would have been about when I was 12 um it might have been Birmingham what was that experience league pretty frightening to be fair with yeah you know I mean I wasn't new to it but it was uh it was different you know the atmosphere and it wasn't one person in front of me there was lots so I just watched the people near me and um and why they do you just have a go you know I'm a little boy I'm 12 years old but I was quite big at 12 when I was probably looked 16 17 when I was 14 I looked 20 you know I mean I had a full growth of air on my face in them days and me I'm aired at the time but I don't have to disappear now but um it was just the way my life was yeah it panned out you know I mean I wouldn't sit here for one minute and say I was a villain I was a criminal I was a gangster I weren't none of them things I weren't none of them I was a survivor I survived when I used to live outside I used to make sure I had everything I needed uh Swiss army knife pair of scissors um some nylon string um I had a crystal radio I don't know I don't you know what crystal radio crystal radio it was about that big and you wind it up it has no batteries you wind it up and it goes for about half an hour then you have to wind it up again but I had that and that was part of my little bear guy when I left home and a tin opener because obviously I needed uh and then they didn't have ring pools you had to open them up and that I had more HP beans out of a can most probably than the beans they'd put in at the factory God because it you know you must have been farting that fuck well ah mate that's why they kept away from me I think but no it was just the way life was for me you know I mean it was uh it wasn't easy and like I say when I found when I was like the 12-year-old the young lad I followed this group of men up the road at Derby County when we played and they was all 20 years older than me and I thought well these are the people to be with and uh one bloke was barking at the orders for us what to do and I thought to my this sounds all right and I followed him and before old boy he's now dead like a lot of them are you know like you get to that stage but I I had loads of good people around me and to be fair like I've said it not every one of them was a fighter but they all had amazing bottle and they would never leave me like I would never leave them there's no one on this planet can say I ever left the man down if a man went down I picked him up and it was the same when I worked on the door if a dormant went down I'll pick him up it was best time the first time you'd ever felt part of a family yeah yeah definitely and I always felt unwanted at home we never had a Christmas our Christmases were no trees no no decorations we used to get a present I used to get a present my dad used to get a pair of slippers every year he had so many slippers I think he'd open the shoe shop and then they'd have a fight they'd always have a fight on a Christmas day because my mum was seeing another man opposite and they used to cook the dinner over there and bring it back on a tray for me and my dad and he'd say something to her about come home here or something I think my dad really loved her because I don't know any man would have stood at what he did she carried on this boat for 30 years I called him Uncle Ted he was alright he was a nice fella but you know I was I was a kid I didn't know right from wrong you know what I mean I didn't know that part of it marriage you know I didn't understand that bit and I just felt oh Uncle Ted's friend and that was it but I used to um I used to play around a bit because I used to when I got a little bit on a bit I was about how old would I be I'd be about 12 I used to I used to go over there and he'd say yeah you're going anywhere Bill and I I think they want me out of the way to get at it you know I mean I used to say no I want one going to pictures and you go how much is that and I say oh three shillings oh all right so how am I going to get there then he said oh how much is the bus and I say oh two shillings and I said I'll be hungry when I come out he said what what do you want I said well fishing chips so I get the fishing chips money I'd get the ice cream money and some sweets and I used to go down the road and I reckon before I got on the bus they was at it you know I mean they actually would got at it in the bed next to me when I was a little little boy really little six I was in bed asleep and I had my cot was gone because I slept in a cot till I was eight and I felt the shaking and I looked around and he was on top of me mum giving away and he went go back to sleep yeah and I didn't know in them days I just thought that was life that was the life that we all have you know I mean and then she uh sometimes used to touch me inappropriately apart from the beatings and uh it was everything was mental torture I got told a lot of times you shouldn't be a and should be a that's my sister who died I was told a lot of times we don't want you and uh I think that it all added up in the end and to me I think that I've done well I come out of it as good as I have done considering what it was like and I can only describe it looking back now L it was L yeah but like I said Bill you're a legend man everybody knows you everybody's got massive respect for you well my only legend for finding a cure for cancer am I you know I mean a legend for what having a fight of football match for being homeless at 14 is coming through it's starting your own business building a network of friends building trust like being loyal to what you believe in loyalty and honour is the two main things in my life loyalty and honour without them things you know you've got nothing you might as well write them out of the dictionary next not many people have got them courage loyalty and honour did you did that fuel you with a lot of anger going through your teenage years and getting into your 20s bill not really not really to be fair I sort of like put it to one side you when you have things like that happen to you you put it to the side of your mind and you get on with your life and uh that's what I did you know I thought was I thought was your I don't know you know this is the same what it's got to be about one night I was in the graveyard and there was a hole in the the fence I could get through and there was no other way in and I was sitting there all of a sudden I heard this noise and this bloke sat in a chair about where you are from me now and I looked at him and I thought was he another piss head or what is he you know what I mean and he we started talking and he said to me you won't be beaten but you're dire terrible death that's what the spring said to me the spoke said to me and I thought I don't want to turn the fuck off in a minute well look around he's gone as quick as he can he went but that's what he said to me you'll never be beaten but you're dire terrible death and I always remembered that I always remember my whole life that was one of the things I always remembered that's a lot of torment but that's a lot of mental abuse as well as physical like did you ever speak to anyone about that when I was at primary school I was very low on confidence used to get bullied a lot and I got bullied so many times that they sent me I see this Dr Brown to have hit my therapy and he only done it on two kids one boy from Burnley and me and I went in there and I first couple of sessions I thought this is nothing you know I didn't think I did nothing and after I'd have a few sessions I used to come out there feeling different and from being like everyone bullying me I become I stuck up to myself and that's one of the things I've always been for to stop bullying anybody because either they're fat or they're ginger they wear glasses you know I mean I hate bullies I hate bullies I will fight bullies all day long and I'll fight until I go in that box similar as that but I had one boy there at school primary school you used to really have it in for me and I didn't see him till I was 18 years old and I went up to him and I said hello and he looked at me like he didn't know me I said he said sorry I don't recognize you I said I went to school with you I sat next to you and he looked at me he went oh Bill Gordon I went yeah that's right but he didn't say it oh oh Bill Gordon he said it in a way that was um you lump of shit you know I mean so I punched him in the mouth he's gone down I just got anything to say now and he went no so I went off and I felt good about that that all the grief he gave me the times he used to push me off the chair you know I thought I got my own back now and that was it I won't take liberties with people if I beat him I walk away that's it I don't take liberties I'm not a liberty taker I'll fight fair you know always have done yeah it's changed there's no bull yeah he is how many West Ham games do you think you've been to over the years I've been going 62 years um obviously that I was banned for four years I couldn't go down four years and I've most probably missed 30 in all the other years I've been going and that's I'm in a way I go Europe you know if we play preseason tournaments in Spain Austria I go all them and the games we have played in Europe I've gone to all them and the clubs are very special to me not this place we play now I eat it and I don't like the owners now but I'm not one of them that goes on about we've got to spend millions and millions and millions I want the club to bring in youth go out get good scouting network bring all the best young players in and make a team like that you know so that they're out and grown and you you know you you can get proud of them I mean like we got Declan right through place for us now I know Declan Declan's mum and dad quite well because I've got a New York with them once a year we see each other out there and he's a nice lad and I wish him well and I think he'd be the next one to go from West Ham because he's ambitious he wants to win things and it don't look like we'll win things it's Europe this year but I don't think they should all get carried away too much it won't last long we're West Ham you know we ain't we ain't them big clubs that win things he's a good boy Declan when we went to Germany we had a coach and he got on the coach and shook everyone's hand on the coach and thanked us all for coming and went my mate Dennis God bless him died last year with cancer he went around Dennis's house and saw him and it made Dennis his day you know and he'd done the same for another friend I've now got chairs who's got a brain tumour and he sent him a message you know he's a genuine nice fella and I wish him well yeah he's not to be happy that he's going to Europe's out the only 13 West Ham's been in Europe finishing sixth last season 75 6 we went we went 80 81 and then we went um before in 65 and uh I went to the home games but not the away games in m days what was your first away game for West Ham um Middlesbrough do you remember it I remember the train full of people the last the last two games of the 58 promotion season I went to I was nearly five um Middlesbrough in Liverpool yeah me dad why ever took me up in Middlesbrough because you know what Middlesbrough was known as the non-sing capital tour of Europe minute Middlesbrough's a bad place and I think he took me up there for some reason I don't know but I did it coming back and I remember the train was full of uh all the all the claret and blue colours were everywhere and uh I enjoyed it I felt this is me you know I mean I felt you know I was only a little boy I said but I felt I like this this is what I want to do you've been there for generations now that funds must have changed through the years how do you feel as for four years ago to know well now over at that new stadium that you told we've got now which I hate is um we've got all these tourists they have a day out they go to madam to soldiers they have a bit of lunch to go to West Ham it's their day out they're getting there they have a two gallon packet of a popcorn uh ink bucket of coca cola you know I mean and they got not got the passion that the older ones have got we could still be a big club I think we could still be a big club the fans need to get behind the team although we hate the board we need to get behind the team more and I think if we do we'd make it a better day out for everyone and all you know everyone goes home with the ump but if you have a laugh in the day it's not so bad you know that's the way I look at it and uh but I don't like it over there the walk to it for older people the walk is like a day's exercise on its own you know I mean I mean I do a lot of walking and cycling I know my day's exercise is getting there and back you know that's the way it's become now but uh you hated mow well I don't think you spoke to a mow well fan in over 50 hours is that clear I didn't I know I've got two mates that are mow well fans now uh they're just a little bit younger than me and they're really nice people but we never got on it was it's the same with them they're say the same and uh uh I um I had a phone call from a mate of mine who runs I'm not sure if it's fear been asked box you know West End Boxing Club and he was in hospital visiting tiny who was one of the top people over at Millwall and he said I'm in hospital with tiny he's uh got a growth in his neck the size of grapefruit he said and uh could you have a word with him and I thought so what do you say to your enemy you know I mean so I got on the phone to him and I said look I'm ever so sorry you are like you are if there's anything I can do well I will we've always been enemies and we always will be but I've got respect for you and I always know you was tiny the the line of Millwall and uh my mate got back to me said he's in tears and I thought was all that and people said to me why did you say that why don't you say you're a right cunt I said no you can't say that to a man who's dying you've got to have a bit of respect you know and uh the bull bugger went you know but uh I don't know when you get older you hear more and more people go with it young people don't think they're ever going to get it they're not going to get this COVID believe me you're going to you will cop it if you don't ain't careful especially when you're all over each other you know what I mean what about who's the strongest form you've ever come up against I think Millwall I think Millwall and a couple of them games we played how many people oh more than 300 a side you know I mean but they had a lot they they when we went over there they used to all turn out and I've got I've got nothing but respect for them I think that they're all right you know they've got um they're quite humorous they've done a few funny things with like the uh they had an helicopter go above Wigan with an Avron Grant hero I think Avron what's that what's that experience then what's that adrenaline when it's 300 against 300 like is it just a free for all or yeah free for all really like they say in the film zulu mark your target when they come you know I mean you know which one you're gonna have I always used to go for the one at the front it was the mouthy one I should always go for that one because I always believe you take off the top of the you cut the tree at the bottom the tree of full so that's what I used to do but a lot of them books that people have written in about me unbelievable how many many books do you think you've been in about 30 about 30 when they've given me a mention I would say 28 of them packs of lies they're just people that are looking to get their ego going you know I mean my book's truth 100% truth every word I don't know I didn't have to glamourize it sensationalize it you know people say about me in there and people talk about me and I get all this they say like you know what I was and what I wasn't that but that was what I was that ain't what I'm like now you know I mean I'm a I'm a family man I live in the country I like I do country things you know change this bull yeah you seem to have a heavy heart though as well you seem to be carrying a lot of pain and I can understand that through the life that you've led at the very start you seem very emotional when you talk about that yeah I am I am and you know in my other film I did I did get emotional a couple of times but if you live that life you would carry something with you you know what I mean yeah like I said the two things that I regret is not keeping in touch with my daughter the other one would be being born they're the two things I regret I couldn't change you know I didn't ask to come into this world if I was given the choice I wouldn't simple why I'm just not happy you know I'm happy with my girlfriend I'm happy with my kids I'm happy when I got a football but deep inside I'm not happy who would be you know who would be when you you took beatings of people who should love you never put their arm around me once all right son never come and watch me play football my dad till I was 26 my last game he come and watch me and I scored and I was well I'd be doing that but just like not not having nothing you know not having nothing I mean I'm a I'm a big holder now I collect things now but I should have had when I was a kid which I don't I didn't have and I think that's what it is that I got that regret I'm not having not having that lifestyle but she kept it a big big secret everyone thought she was a the glow in mum you know never thought never unbelievable unbelievable just feel as if you didn't you were neglected your whole child to that they used to feed me they used to clothe me you know I mean I had no um no love but I sometimes I feel guilty for the way they was to me I upset the mother when we done the book I'd like to apologize he said why why should you apologize they did it to you not you do to them and understood that but I go to my mum and dad's grave every four weeks I clean it I change the flowers because they're I don't put fresh flowers on I put plastic ones but I put different ones on she should like lots of colors so a grave you should arrest a foreign study you know he was loads of color but at the end of the day I do that as mark respect as part of respect you know they was my mum and dad and I still love them you know I mean I think that shows your character though that everything you've went through and you're still showing that loyalty to someone who treated you badly somebody's a friend for me they're a friend for life and I will do anything for them I will lay my life on the line for a friend don't get many people like that anymore let everybody's out to get yeah what they can make a few quid I met a few like that they want to try and make a few quid or use my name and make a few quid but at the end of the day it's part of life it's all under the bridge you learn and you move on you know I'm not one for being upset for years and years because somebody's had me over for a few quid or nothing like that but what I do is I never give it in I never give nothing in so if I was to take a really bad beating and I'd be in hospital for a year I guarantee within two years I get me home back they have to kill me to beat me it's simple as that I will not be beaten there's something in me that says no no you've had enough you keep on fighting and that's what I do wherever I like to do with my children with my childhood I don't know I think a lot of people if I sat down with somebody they might say all this is due to your childhood you know but I've never ever looked at it like that in all fairness you know I've just gotten my life did you go to Russia with West Ham yeah what was that experience like oh unbelievable uh nine inches just now in Moscow and 70 degrees in Tbilisi where we went down there yeah what was the score we won 1-0 we've scored one down they're the best team I've ever seen at West Ham they were fantastic what year was that I don't know must be 81-2 I think something like that wasn't it Tbilisi yeah because with the 76 we played um Armenian team and you don't know my Tbilisi but it's four of them and they were fantastic and anyone was there would say they was just unbelievable but to beat them one year I think they took the full of the gas but there was um I think there was 400 of us went out there all together he's all on the coaches and the when we went in the ground everyone had a uniform on and then days it was the days of you know the Soviet Union and uh we had a row of people in uniforms in front a row of us a row of uniforms rather but they could have been postmen you know I mean they resist but they they had a big sign welcome to the sportsmen of England along the side of the along the side of the ground retreat this very well russians are all right who used to come knocking on your door do you want to change money out on the black market you get four times as much money off that of make your boy knocking on the door than you did in the bureau change they bought everything jumpers bags you name it we we knew when we went out there what to be like so there was chewing gum so I love the chewing gum and cassettes you know the old cassettes well god I mean I ate it out and John I bought four of them in the airport knocked them out yeah unbelievable they uh they were a funny bunch and they they're uh in them days there was a very oppressed people we went on a coach trip and me and my mate Steve Bean we went down on the metro and the metro in Moscow is unbelievable it's chandeliers everywhere and it's marble it's lovely it's it's really a pleasure to go down there and uh yeah it was good I enjoyed it West Ham I've had some legends play for them you get Bobby Muir Frank McAvene I've got a girlfriend and my brother Frank Tony Cortes during Dix Tevez Frank Lampard loads of them yeah who's the best player you've ever seen for me in my lifetime I'm going to have to go for Bobby Muir because he couldn't run he couldn't head but he was the best because he was three steps ahead of everyone he was the best player I've seen but I also liked Di Cagno and Tevez I like them a lot and Trevor Brogan that with a West Ham fan can name a team of lousy players quicken and it can name a team of good players we could name eight teams of badans and about the three teams of good ones that's the way it is that's what it's like West Ham look I know a meal but he said to me once your glory aren't there's well I like nobody glorious because I ain't seen it and not a lot of people my age and generation you know they've just not seen it I'd like to see that I'd like to see us playing the Champions League just one game even if it was like a preliminary round you know just one game and I'd die at me man similar to that but you know they done well last year and I'll go to the European Games this year and look forward to it but I'd say my two mates are really bad or I normally go with well actually one's dead and one's not good and they'd be solely missed why do you think Di Cagno was so loved even though for a short stand at West Ham passion he had passion it was like one of us out there playing you know he all teams have this this one player two players that come along in a generation that have got passion for their club any football sport you ask will always have these people you know I mean the man United like Di Cagno didn't they not Di Cagno what's his name the Frenchman Cantona Cantona you know he had passion I mean there's been plenty of them you know I remember Di Cagno's go against Manchester United the scissor kick yeah and against Wimbledon yeah he don't want to get to Wimbledon yeah there's been some players why do you think the West Ham fans are so loyal as well even though you've not had any success I think it's down to originating where we come from West Ham is a working class team from working class area a lot of people used to work at the docks or at folds like my dad my dad worked at folds my uncle and my granddad were stevey doors on the docks and that was before they had big cranes to lift the stuff up they just took the hook in the bananas put the bananas on their back and carry them up the ladder I had a picture of my uh my uncle he was a circus strongman my uncle and I got one of a big banana strop fighter on his on his jacket unbelievable but they was out they was always striking they'd be outside the gates people used to come out we want 10 people for the sugar boat and you know they'd they get picked they didn't if they didn't they went in the pub and got pissed that's what they did my uncle was a fiercely strong man he he lifted a grand piano above his head and um I saw him lift two blokes up um two blokes were sitting in chairs and he picked him up by the back legs of the chair like this he was a he was he was six foot tall one about eight foot wide he was so big and strong you know I mean he had muscles on his arms like tops of my legs he was big and uh he was like the black wolf of our family I um I used to get on well with him to be fair he died he died in old people's own racing and old girl with a toilet on zimmer frame they got they fanged into each other he went over it he's in and died yeah yeah what way to go yeah yeah but uh no it's them days I don't know I don't regret regret anything if I if I did go back and what my life I've had I wouldn't change for one minute of it because I think I've done more good than bad in my life and whether or not I'll go up there or down there like I say we're we're off to wait and see if there's anywhere we do go but uh if I go down there you better watch out there's a lot of said I ain't coming back in peace right if you're going anywhere but I can guarantee it'll be a good place man you've got such a good soul like and I've used so many people but you're a good man like your loyal I can feel your passion you wear your heart and your sleeve like I can feel your emotion I can feel this is emotional for you like you've been through some shit but you're still here fighting and that shows your true character like thank you there's not many people like that a lot of people would have jumped out and pulled the string quicker to get to fuck because it's a painful experience to the shit that you went through but that shows how strong a man you are still here nearly six to eight well loved well respected two books out you've been mentioned in many other books but that's people want to be surrounded by you they want to mention you because it gives them some credit yeah but that shows you what you've achieved in life you might not feel it but there's a lot of people look up to you for inspiration remember a kid who was homeless to run in his own business that takes massive courage to not let life defeat him yeah I would like to I'd like to help people that are like that you know I mean I've always said to my Sarah I was wondering one Christmas why don't we go and help these people they've got nothing but you have to fill in so many bits of paper it's like all red tape and now let's give it a miss you know I mean I would like to do that I'd like to help kids that are down in their luck because what people don't know is everyone on the street not all of them are there for a good reason a lot of youngsters are there for the same reasons I went through and there's thousands of people like it but what I what I learned was that when somebody's on the street you always look if they've got clean hands they're not homeless because you do get dirty hands you know you wash them they get dirty quickly you know and like say when I was homeless I never ever put the hat out for any money I never pounced I worked and that's the way I've always looked I've always worked I've never pounced or made money out of anything dodgy or nothing like that I've led a I've led a squeaky clean life to be fair as far as that's concerned but I would just like that you know I was in Greece one year and this old lady was outside the restaurant all her hands bandaged up she's in the curb screaming and I was eating and I said the state of her like so she said yeah it's bad isn't it I said I'm gonna give her some money so I went out I'll give her 10 euros or something and the next night we're at the top of the island which you can only get two by car and she's come around the tables again and I thought hold on a minute so what I did is I followed her around the back and she was having a divvy up with her money so I sat down and she come around to my table I said look lady I'll give you 10 euros the whole night fuck off because I knew she was con you know she's conning us all she wasn't homeless at all but you can always tell with them you know the clean look or they a lot of them use the dog now yeah that gets me if you're homeless how can you afford to feed your dog you know and there are some genuine ones out there but I would like to help the youngsters and show them that the streets of London ain't paved with gold they're paved with cold you know and you know and it's something and you know I had um I was sitting in the doorway in Oxford street because it's light you know I mean you've got the lights from the shops it lights everything up under there was a wimpy bar there and this bloke went in the wimpy bar pinstripes so he come out he had a bite out of his burger opened it spit in it and put it on top of the bin and he went about 20 yards down around and he was looking back and at that time I was so angry I wiped his spit out and I ate it and that was what kind of person does that but when you're homeless and you're young you get propositioned a lot I used to have a lot of people I had about in the 11 months I was out there I think I had about 10 or 11 of them all right son would you like to come over for a nice bath and a nice meal on a full sort of year I know what you're after you know I mean I said no thanks thank you I'll give that a go I'll give that a go you know scary I did I made a homeless documentary I slept on the streets for seven days through Christmas you know it's like I stopped for Christmas day I always knew I was going home people say we're not scared but I never really slept much because I was always on guard because there's people who get stabbed in their sleep urinated on shower and set on fire but it was to give people an understanding that we're all human like I'm surprised you never turn to drink our drugs because when I was sitting on the streets it's like a world within a world it's like I didn't exist nobody cared like there's so many good people don't get me wrong there's so many soup kitchens so many people offer and clothes but it doesn't really change the mindset if you're low in confidence low in self-esteem if you've been abused as a kid then it's hard to then run your own house it's hard to go and get a job because you feel worthless yeah try to change the mindset to show people that they're good enough everyone can be homeless like you did but you knew you was going home at the end yeah not knowing what your future holds for you as old different kettle of fish you know I just didn't know what what anything went old for me but like I say I got married when I was just 18 I was married for two it didn't work we weren't right for each other and then I got married again for another 10 and I was happy with her and but I needed kids I wanted kids and then like I've been with Sarah for 40 years now and she's she's my soulmate she's my best friend she's she's seen me when I'm rock bottom when I'm so low me ass was on the floor like a snout you know I mean that's she stuck with me and she's a good girl and I love it a bit to my boys do you respect that loyalty people who give you love they give me that they get it back you know they get it back as simple as that people don't realise that them little things in life are really important and I'm a footballer you know after when some days we've had a round I've don't think one particular person had pulled his weight I would never go and slag him off face to do is put my arm around him you're right mate you know I mean because all the words in the world that little physical touch on the shoulder little pat on the back that's what motivates people you can motivate somebody by doing that words go in it one ear and out the other but the actual physical touch on the shoulder you're right you know I mean that goes that goes well with them anyone can use that in life you just have to understand human nature when I was doing the homeless documentary it wasn't the money that you were receiving a few pound a day it was the the five minute chat that somebody stopped and asked you how your day was that was the gold for me that was to show that people care now there's thousands walked past the other people are struggling themself I know people just get two and three jobs to struggle if not get time to really see that there's some deline on the streets I get that people's in a fast paced world but the people who do take the time and how's your day would you like to say I mean is that those people are golden these people you the world can be a good place as well there's so much goodness out there there's some good people some great people out there you know that do a lot for everybody I mean I'll say my two mates the one who died Dennis and my mate Chaz who's not well now would do anything for anybody they just there was I was once told by my mate Chaz he said there are two types you'll meet givers and takers surround yourself with givers and he's spot on you know I mean I will remember that for the rest of my days that's spot on you don't want to be surrounded by takers yeah the 80s must have been tough with the football stuff was that with the fact I'll try to slam it down yeah yeah how is that I just used it for after the miners that she crushed the unions it was a football fans turn so what they do they they had all the people that was i ranking in the clubs to have a meeting with her and it was mentioned in the court case they went for a meeting and what they what they did is instead of really doing the research and really mixing in with the people they just pick names people names that people that had reputations but weren't maybe not doing it I mean when I went to court there was 11 of us and I didn't know five of them that's what you hear boys and I'm with you I thought fucking I don't even know you and then we sat there and obviously I knew Andy and I knew Cas and I knew Ted and Paul Dulce and I sat there and these boys here like you know and like I say I sat there the first day and in the court case they get a lot of legal argument you know they they sod the jury off and have their little moans and that and then the jury comes back but I thought no the next day I bought a big load of paper in pens and I done a graph on all their names and every time somebody's the bad thing about somebody I put across when they say a good thing I put six and I was working out who was in the shit and who wasn't you know I mean and it and I I knew we was going to go about before the end I said look there's hardly bad points against us it's all bullshit and I actually looked at the jury because my mum was a bit deaf I used to like lip read and I used to watch the jury and there was two older people down and when the policeman was giving his evidence she looked around and she went though this shit this is and I thought well we're halfway you know it was a 9-2 and they kicked one out actually knew one of the coppers so it was a it was very interesting it was very interesting it's like a game the police are having a game with us and we're having a game with the police and there's the same in the court a lawyer the QC's pit their heads against each other but they all know each other they're all friends they went to the same university and it was something that I'm I took a lot of interest in what was going on there and I thought I wish you'd have learned when you was at school you know I mean I mean my my my youngest boy Danny now he's girlfriend's a solicitor in family law and uh in all friends I think I wish I'd have done something like that I wish I had the brains to do that you know should have listened and turned up more you know what was that what would you have expected if you've got a guilty 10 years fuck minimum of 10 years what yeah because that's what the Chelsea boys got before us year before they got done they got 10 years and uh when when we we had the evidence looked at by this thing called Esther which is they get the paper and they put this black powder on it and they shake it thousands of miles an hour on the machine and anyone who's wrote anything on top on another piece of paper it comes through it fills in and you can see they put the dates in months later to make it look more you know and also that when you write people write the same it on some of these logs the bottom 10 rows was forced in there it wasn't natural you know so we smell a rat on that we've paid I think 400 pound they wouldn't give us the leg to do it so 400 pound have it done and it come out they was lying I was actually in the box the day that they called it off and uh the prosecutor got up he was honorable man he said it's coming like that the integrity of the police dogs is you know not good and the judge he was the most eat he had no sense of humor they picked one with no sense of humor his name was Judge Hitchens and there was a couple of really funny moments in the in the trial where they got one policeman to give evidence he was off sick and uh he he walked funny up to the um up to the the dock and the judge said are you all right do you want a chair and he went no he's all right he said what's what's the problem he went piles and when he said piles there was there was we was all beyond a thing laughing we could see his head's going up and down he warned us always an old attempt to court and uh it was funny he was up there and then had had another one who was suspended for biting the bloke's ear off in a pub he wasn't even supposed to wear his uniform when they're suspended but the eye ranking officer told him to wear his uniform and uh but the clerk of the court had a picture of the bloke who had his ear ripped off and as he walked past the jury he had it facing him so as he's going by they're all going like it's looking at it unbelievable you couldn't you couldn't make it up what's the best what best time game you've all been to the best yeah oh dear the best there's been lots of good ones but i think more bad ones than good ones i think uh most probably that game that game in russia sticks in my mind because we won and you know they was a great team and i think we got a little bit of pride back that that was quite nice um some of the cup games we've had in the past have been decent uh we've also had some nice shit but there's more there's more things the west end bank and right what was wrong and what was right you know i think i said with the sack i've spoke to a few people who's been involved and let the football stuff um calton leech bars barrington barrington he's not well bez is he yeah i like i like to wish him i like to wish him well bez you know because castanum he's not a bad bloke so yeah he's a real good guy if you're gonna watch this i wish you well mate all right yeah i got a lot of love for bez i mean how many missus trace i spoke to a younger younger boy don't he was he's taught them though but he's a younger generation like yeah but they're all solid all loyal show your love and respect obviously you wouldn't want to cross these people because they would fucking tear your head off but every man i've spoke to who's been involved in what they're involved in have all been solid 100% like is that what makes it so good to be part of some sort of family like some sort of like what i mean what i would say to you is this i um in the past i've found that the the bodybuilder type of football once they taste their own blood they don't fancy it because they like looking at themselves in mirrors too much and uh so the big musty things and i know i know that bez does the the fighting and that and good luck to him but um and and uh the young boy denny who someone's there's too much to say but you know that's him uh good luck to him all you know me yeah what about um kelton leech uh kelton's a lovely bloke he's so funny yeah i've got a lot of time for kelton i've met kelton he's been on the show he makes me roll out he's funny man yeah but a proper proper character back to where that front line he's got a nice chapter in my book and uh he's a good lad he's a good lad i always like kelton why are we never connected with the icf stuff then because you're younger than me because much younger that was a yeah they're all much younger i mean colton 60 i think i'm 60 70 68 when you're a kid eight years older than another person it was quite a lot you know when you get to 40 and somebody's 32 it's not so bad but when you're 20 somebody's 12 you know what i mean so i um i love kelton a bit he's a great bloke and kass the good people yeah kass is a legend as well kass has always helped me why do you think that west harm the icf have got such a big reputation well then then boys done it all you know what i mean they've done it all like i say people used to go with we had no name we had no gang name name we just went we were mates who went together and uh like i said we was before them because of our ages i mean my mate's head's three years older than me you know what i mean he's the oldest one in town i think now but like i say yeah we're all great mates i've found him up every christmas morning wishing well and uh there's there's good people and there's lots and lots of them i've been really really loyal and good to me and uh i'll never ever forget that that when i had nothing they was there for me you know i mean so i will always be there for them all of them every one of my mates who stood with me all through them last 52 years whatever it is out of 62 i went i don't forget none of them some of them come from all over the world you know morta finland good people good people that are back me do you miss it bro do you miss the madness of the past you never i'll be honest in my life now is very peaceful like i say i i'm i um i'm involved with a lot of birds and i don't mean the two legging ones i mean ones with feathers yeah i like that i like zoos i like animals horses uh you name it i like it but deep down inside anyone who's led the life i have you have that passion still in your heart and in your belly and you know something goes off and you think fucking i'll come and just get in there and then you you you sit down and you think oh don't admit you ain't well you're getting on give it a miss you know what i mean but you never take that fire out of a man you know i mean it's like if you take a racing driver out of a car for 30 years and you put him back in here want to win the bloke the next and the bloke next to him you never lose that will to win but you just have to realize that um you have to move on you have to move on i moved on you know what i mean i moved on i i'm the same as what carleton said i um someone's think what's this fucking idiot you're talking you know what i mean talking about his shit next to me and you feel like oh give me one but you think no no no give it a miss is it hard to stop especially being involved for 30 40 years to then oh very hard to walk away and go very very hard very hard what age will you when you decided right i'm kind of going to try and live a life of peace and after i got nicked was that yeah after i got nicked and i thought we're so old and a minute you don't need this anymore i um i thought if you carry on like this you're either going to end up dead or mad so i decided that uh mad was a better option because there are times when did you just thrive on it like the madness once your adrenaline goes anyone would tell you that's involved in any fighting or sport the adrenaline is what keeps you going and it doesn't matter if you're hurt you don't hurt at the time because your adrenaline keeps you going i know carleton said it because he had these steroids and all that i never took none of that shit mine was pure adrenaline and it and that's what worked for me did you ever take any second prizes bo no i didn't to be fair with you i'll be honest there is no one you get here say that they give me a good i didn't no i didn't and i was always fair with people if i beat them that was it i wouldn't like kicking like nowadays they do you and they kick you in the eyes to your eyes bleed i won't do that i used to beat people fair and square i was strong i was fit i was fast and i had a punch like a hammer and that's what it was and you know but um no no person can come up and say to me i don't you you lying bastard no they can't because they know they didn't but them days are gone you know i mean all around the bridge were you a target for some films because of the reputation really not really i never felt i was a target i had a bit of abuse from a lot of them used to throw abuse across the road you know i mean a Manchester United they did it one year for a load of views when i crossed the road towards them the fucking attitude changed you know i mean but no there's there's good and bad in all teams and uh you know i mean i i would never have a guy a person just because he spotted another team top num artel but if they want to have a go that's a different kettle of fish you know i mean you have to have lines to cross and if somebody crosses the line that's a different way aren't it we ever outnumbered oh loads of times loads of times a lot of time we bullshitting our way out of things um a lot of times we've done crazy things that we shouldn't have done like you know instead of like abbing it away on our toes we'd attack them before they got to us and even though we was outnumbered and we'd done all right you know we did okay and people say yeah all that and never got done no no find somebody who says they did me yeah that's the challenge i put out to all you all you people are listening find someone find someone who give me a good idea and then you find people that i did it to and i was fair with them mostly even helped them up you know i mean that's the way i've led my life i've refused to be beaten what's the best crap you've ever been involved in oh we had a i had a few when i worked on the door in the clubs we had some boys there one night that were throwing fireworks around and um really misbehaving and i i said to my little fellas you gotta calm it down a bit and i went in there to throw him out and i said come you gotta go and he went what you and who and i look around and all the others had left me so i said yeah just me so we've gone out in the alleyway where where your people come in and i thought we so i would have made a beer mug i thought i'm gonna get done here so we had a door and when you closed the door the handy angle off the door used to fall off i went to the door they thought i was trying to do a run and i said that i closed the door got the handy angle and went into him a couple of my mates got done that was there that night by him and then i thought the biggest one outside and uh the police come and put the dogs on us we both got nicked uh both went to court and got away i think with uh um i think that's just disturbing the pieces i went like that because two of them got done and two of my mates got done it was like self-defense kind of thing yeah yeah do you feel lucky enough to have got the jailbow i done remowned for a few days and that was enough for me i like like i said i like being outside i like breathing fresh air i like everything like to do with nature i don't i don't when i was this i didn't like pissing in the bucket and eating all that shit when i was it was in there i did give the babes in the woodkiller a good hiding in the toilet who was here he killed two kid he's in bright and he's called the babes in the woodkiller he got away with it he got out and he'd done another two kids but when when he was in there for the first time he was on remand in brickston in um in what they call fraggle rock all the monsters are yeah but he had to come into our our bit in the hospital because i was in the hospital bit to to go have a piss and uh all the boys in there would cheer me up go on go and give him one the coppers won't go in the week you got on what i was on crutches so in the toilets in there they're like at the top so you can look over and i've gone through the door like a western and i've done him on the pan you know they had uh the coppers coming up pulled me away and uh i forget rassle bishop his name was the babes in the woodkiller yeah i copped him one yeah he's come up and yeah bastard man yeah so what do you when upton park i know you get emotional when you spoke about i was the last one out of the ground for the two nights the last saturday last july it was the last one out and uh like i say um i can't put in words what it was like for me it was like my life had ended and i have to start again and i could give it a go over that new place i give it three years and uh it ain't the same you know like i say i've got nothing against i don't like the owners i want them out but i just want to have somebody in there with ambition they even got to have money ambition wants to be the best wants to win you know not everything a pound no everything is a pound over that lot you know i mean gold sullerman brady it's all money money money money no not for the fans it ain't you know the fans want want success we want to have a team that be proud of and win something because the feeling when you support a team when they win something especially like us when we don't win nothing for donkeys years them days out are fantastic you know and people really enjoy them i've seen the joy on people's faces when we've had good days yeah but you know that's that's life now isn't it mate yeah everything's good yeah celtic maca vanny i've had maca on i love maca he's a funny bastard he's a funny bastard i'm good friends with maca now but i know he's good friends with tony caught in he was he he smashed it at the west half did he not score like 15 or 20 goals when he was down here but he was a party boy he was always in string fellows with all the page freeze yeah no he was like one of us on the pitch you know the way he lived his life you know fantastic yeah i like frank a lot right so that season when he scored all the goals when we finished third but after that season we finished third that club she'd have gone out and bought three or four top class players so they could do better than third but they didn't do it once again who we had in charge there now i think terry brown who's the chairman here they looked at it oh look we're uh with pranish third that's all right next year we do the same and they didn't invest they didn't invest in in the future we needed to invest in and all fairness a lot of people didn't like terry brown but i got to know him a little bit and i thought he was all right and that we had a museum at west end at one stage and everything in the museum terry owned and when he fucked off he took it all with him so we had was empty shelves you know i mean youth cups and all that oh terry had them all we used to spend fortunes on programs at program fairs i know he did and nobody can say he was in a west end thing because he truly was yeah but these three i don't know they say they are and no not for me but you must be proud of west end finishing sixth last season had a great season they could have probably finished high in this room yeah we done well we done well but once again we lost the goalkeeper for two periods that cost us and we should have bought we should have bought in the january window when we got rid of the striker and got another we should have got another one in and it might have made the difference because michael antonio although he's doing great up front he's not really a striker he's a wide player he always played all these wide football two in a medium wide and that i believe is his strength but we need strikers what premier league team goes into a season with only one striker everyone has four every team in any league has four strikers not that's one when when was it was it tevez and marciano who was other kids name two argentinian boys members you spot them um the one who went there was tevez and marciano was it mascarano yes or something well how did that i was a t-shirt isn't it because tevez ended up one of the best players on the planet that the team i got in my new and then gave everything i think he went yeah they give everything yeah what a player that the premiership is all money now it's all changed that football now isn't he's not owned by like it was in the past the the garage owner the ship owner the billionaires every club's got these billionaires and uh it's like i say it is a business it is a business but to the fans it's a football club it's a team you support the team you want to do well but it ain't for me you know i mean i i just want to see that word i've said to you a few times ambition not not the big spending but ambition we want to do well you know even little clubs in not league football have that ambition you know i mean i mean my boys are involved with the current fiend casuals in the bostic premier league my oldest boys the manager and my youngest one danie's the goalkeeper he's played five hundred games for them and they've got ambition they're ambitious but they're amateur nobody gets paid what that boy you played with on sunday kiran yeah he plays for us and the other one who come on uh uh one who's brought brothers at celic not celic a chelsea a doi oh yeah he's been with us you know i mean so um we've got ambitions we don't want to be a bottom team we want to do well even though we've got no budget at all we've got to give a shout out to duggy and what's the other duggy and terry sanford duggy and terry two great guys i met them at the west ham legends game playing against the harvey's eleven from so-so harvey great guy west ham legends looks great guys but these two get i spoke to them after the match absolute legends and they couldn't speak any higher of you man like showed you so much love and respect but these two guys were diamonds i think terry is it is he the cab driver yeah he's a mad to cab driver that always gets on talks or radio duggy's duggy's a good bloke and when uh with no football he got me in at dorky and watch a few games like you know because he knows the manager so i had a in the lockdown i had five or six games i went which i really enjoyed nice people at dorky wanderers football club yeah they put on that event that was to raise money for homeless yeah they are really nice people over there yeah really nice it's the same as like sat crimby and cashew we've got nice people we're linked with crimpians in brazil you know we've been chelsea in the world we have a few brazilians come over and come way around they bring their their rockets with them up goes the rockets you know i can see our chairman going oh my god no you know i think you don't like it too much but you know people enjoy themselves yeah brazilian fans on the next level so is that harvey's they're passionate did you ever go with england did any firms ever come together and go with england no never i went to the world cup in 82 in bill bayo in spain when we played i went there i went to norway when norway beat us i'm not really a great follower of england i watched one italian i think i was passionate as anyone about my country but um west amb's for me i'd rather go west amb once than the england ten times you know west amb's everything how they like yeah you have for that club is unbelievable i've been rewarded with it mate they've never said to me that we need somebody like you to come and work for us try and get get the fans behind us and that they've never asked me none of them have ever asked me that why do you think that is i think they know i'm too straight because of the reputation i'm too straight mate i'm too straight if you're a liar you get found out nowadays you can't lie about something somebody knows about everything but no not for me i um i just hope the day comes when they sell up and we get somebody that open ambition in their heart to give us back because i think we could not only fill that ground they're talking about making it 65 000 i think we could fill a bigger ground than that if we were successful top four your top three or four i think that they definitely bang at every game and i think they could fill a bigger ground well you got to that you never got a champions league this season because you're a lanker at a time you know i mean i thought oh i'm gonna do it i'm gonna see that one game you know i didn't i didn't think we're getting here and win it but i thought that one game i'd do me and uh no it never happened but i might be with this european thing that's coming okay i went before when we played the uh astra i mean it sounds like a fucking car doesn't it we lost to a team with the name of a car and i thought myself you know it was full of bugs everywhere it went over there i think it was 500 of us where their ground was was full of midges everywhere you go you was getting bit you know i mean and uh yeah it's great but you know westland we've got a loyal loyal fans very loyal fans stick by them through thick and thin don't matter how good they're doing they still get a good average crowd you know but there's this mobbing charge they don't understand i don't mean they they know they've got a captive audience but they don't know that our big week could become i know we could be massive i know people that have packed up that went for 20 or 30 years they'd all come back they'd all come back i know a lot of them a lot of the boys that now doing this hammers united you know really good blades that are trying to do their best for the club doing their best for the fans fantastic people what's it like from the kids now who have a tear up to then what it was like in the 80s and 90s everything changed with cameras is that a dying game yeah the the punishments don't fit the crime anymore you know if a kid had a fight outside a nightclub on a friday night you'd get a fine you have a fight outside the football ground you get six months whatever happened you know what i mean so i think they're a little bit shrewder they think they said well i'm gonna get this for doing that ain't worth doing and it is a dying it's a dying thing i think that things will happen still but not away away from the grounds like service stations where two coaches might pull in and get you know that sort of thing will happen i think that will happen all over the country but i think in grounds now the police have it so sewn up you know they know where you're meeting where you're going you know who's coming you know you turn up anywhere the police are there before us you know you've got a couple of grasses on the firm i think yeah that's uh tell them but i think all teams have i know that i had some uh some chelsea mates were locked in a pub and a cop are coming and a cop's come in and they fingerprinted them nine of them were banned they got nicked and uh this fella said to him you know how do you how do you know who's gonna be here he said oh we've got we've got two or three people in with you that are grassing so and he said don't worry we've got we've got something at West Ham and all so what i think they do is they nick somebody for something small like drugs or something and they say look you help us we're up with you you tell us what's going on and uh i think that's what they do yeah it's very hard to pick one out when he's squealing behind your back you know yeah there's there's many like that it was like when they they said they was with us in the swoops they supposed to have mingled with us they didn't mingle with us although some of their photos they took by their photographers showed them in a group but they was never with the group they was walking by and he's turned around till they get in the photo and all that we got the photos these people never fit into what we look like never yeah it was a terrible organisation who ever did it if i'd have been the commissioner i'd have sacked him there's more snatches now than coppers though it's just the way the world now like it's the way it is like there's so many weak people that there's hardly any lawyer there's no love there's no respect like it's kind of free for all there's still good people out there though what do you think back looking would you think looking back in your life bo would i think yeah um i wouldn't change the love i got for my football club i wouldn't change um when i wouldn't change the love i got for my family i would like to have learned more stayed at school learned more done something more in my life i feel that i had something a little bit more to offer than what's in these books you know i feel that i could have maybe got myself a decent job doing something or other um uh i don't mind being in front of the camera you know i've done it a few times now i quite enjoy it i can get up and talk in front of hundreds of people it won't faze me but it just seems that i spent the whole lifetime of lifting curbs out the road and laying them in and lifting paving stones and lugging up skips with wool barriers are concrete and i thought maybe you're a bit better than that but that's what i did that was my biscuit and uh i better eat it yeah but you're prefeated for your family there's not anything that's an honest living yeah it's an honest living it's an odd but honest living mm-hmm let's touch on your book well yeah the man them if the legend how was it writing this and putting this three years three and a half years it took us to do it me and moz i used to go up to his place and he would uh um take tapes and then convert the tapes into the written word he's very good a by tacha i think he'll go on to become a really good author i i've got to have a couple of people i would like him to do that not not the same sort of thing as me but they've done real good in their life one of my mates roey was a soldier he's had a lot of heartbreak in his life his mrs died of a very rare complaint he's one of my best mates roey's an indian and uh he's a lovely lead you know in his family i'm really close to and i hope that mozza goes on yeah because it says bobby moore was west ham's leading leader on the pitch ball gardner was west ham's leader i've encountered that didn't he yeah because you were in there the rise of the foot soldier as well the first one one with calton i never knew i was in it i went to the pictures to see it i'm sitting there with me mrs and obviously it started and i'm watching it and there was this geese that looked like one of the chuckle brothers that was me and when he come on and he said it was me i just laughed and the picture was quite full and everyone looked at me why is he laughing this ain't funny they didn't realize that it's supposed to be me i didn't look nothing like that in them days i really didn't you had the color i'd curly hair yeah i'd curly hair but uh but yeah i did look like the chuckle brothers in that but it did make me laugh yeah i quite i quite enjoyed that film he was all like coming the first one was good with kind of i killed it now yeah they've done it the death yeah i like calvin got a lot so much time for calvin's a good man he's solid yeah going forward through the future but what's your plans to try and stay above ground for a few more years yeah um i've got a few more places i want to go and visit before i go i want to i want to go to lake constance in germany biggest fresh water lake in europe i've been there once before i want to go back there and take my sarah i want to obviously go to the west dam games the european ones and uh i'll go i'll go near the i'll go all the away games this year and most probably off the home ones because i'll go and watch my boys playing that currently in casuals i enjoy that i enjoy the people over there they're all genuine yeah for anybody that's watching bullets maybe coming through a battle maybe struggling at home or maybe it's fucking close to getting put on the street what advice would you give for them right for if you're being bullied the first thing you do is you can find the courage in yourself when the bully starts you steam into him you and if you lose you lose and you get up and you give it a few days and you steam into him again and in the end he won't come back believe me they won't come back because that's what they are their bullies you fight back they don't want to like it always fight back never give up and if you're home and you're unhappy try and talk to somebody and you know there's plenty of people out there that would help but be careful because there's lots of dodgy people out there and all but in all fairness if i could help anybody i would but like i say if you're a bullied person get into him shame that you're not going to take it you're not going to take the shit anymore well for coming on today i thoroughly enjoyed that thank you man very honest and i look forward to seeing what you do for future listen i'm rooting for west time now to get into the champions like i'd love to see you there at one of the games like you don't know what the future holds like like i say your your west time through and through it's in your blood and you're a good man bowing thanks for coming on and telling your story thank you thank you brother thank you check out more of my podcasts on the right and be sure to like share and comment your thoughts on this week's podcast thank you