 I am representing the VNIT Nakhur sorry I could not prepare a PPT I will just show all that. So, we will start with the syllabus. Third semester CSE. We do not have any programming in first year it is started now onwards for the next session but right now we have a pattern like this in the second year we are introducing the subjects of programming to the various branches. For CSE we have this one third CSE introduction to the programming. In continuation with that we have an introduction to the object oriented methodology for the CSE students then for electronic students we have this programming in C and C plus that is again introduced on second year level. Then we have a computer programming for metallurgy and all the other branches. So, you have actually three different flavors of programming one for metallurgy mechanical engineer and lesser mortals of the world. Then the next higher level of human beings whom you recognize as electronics you give them programming in C and C plus plus. And to the brahmins of the institution you give introduction to programming and introduction to object oriented programming. Is that acceptable to the general because everywhere else we have seen that there were common course for all branches of engineering. We are the building block for the student logical level. But that is CSE students. I am talking about the other branch students. They are having just a flavor of programming in terms of C. But there is no common course of programming to all students. But from July onwards that is the new introduction to the syllabus. It is there for all the branches. Okay. That is the first semester course. But at the first year we are introducing a C. But CSE students they are learning C language in the first year but in the second year they are learning the past. No, no. Forget CSE students. We are not looking at CSE students at all. We are looking at engineering students of all branches. Which also includes CSE. So therefore what our interest would be the first course that you are planning to do from July. Now, which particular subject of this overlaps on that course? Do you have any? Yes, sir. Actually what happened the third grade metallurgy is there. Then the third grade ETRX and ETC they are having a what? C and C++. So you have come. C++ is not there. That's okay. C++. So the first year course now that is planned is C programming course. But it is the first course in programming. Can we assume therefore that it will run similar to your introduction to programming in CSE? Yes, sir. Okay, okay. So it is 3028. That means... Sir, it's about C and that to follow for all each and every branch. The introduction to do a programming is the name of a subject and the second year level for CSE students. The credits are like this. The three are there for a theory. Then zero, there is no practical as per the request of tutorial. As per the request of the students we can have that. Then we have a practical of two hours per week and the total credits awarded are eight there. Now again for theory we have a three hours per week. For practical we have a two hours per week. Each student is having that much. That means total of five for programming and awarded credits are eight. Like this the same thing has happened for object oriented methodology but here we are introducing one tutorial. In fact we should not discuss those other courses because what we are talking about is just the first course in programming. So let's stick to that introduction to programming. I believe that is the course with which you are dealing with in your further details right now. So we have a theory of hundred months and practical is of fifty months. Then again what happened in a total semester the period of that particular semester we are getting forty to forty two lectures. Why because the duration is it is approximately four months. Then the grading for theories like that it is completed fifteen plus fifteen for the first session next fifteen for the second session ten half is the four class stage and it is different upon that subject teacher I will get for a ten month. It may have about class discussion of our students and teacher how they will convert a ten month. We can have a multiple objective question then open book stage. Again for first session and second session the option is open for a teacher. We can take we can conduct a test just as a normal or we can have open test like that. Sixty months are awarded for the end semester examination. So together we have a scheme of hundred for a theory. Then attendance is having the grading scheme no marking at all. So h is there for the higher then nine eight and w is there for less than seventy five percent attendance. Then for practical we have a continuous evaluation. Again in our computer lab we have a twenty to twenty two computer and there is a batch of fifteen students again the assignments are given and what happened in our practical one we have that subject teacher and it is supported with two teaching assistants which are basically m tech students. And at the time of evaluation whatever with the deadline is there for submission we take a Y-Y usually and that will be a continuous assessment. So whatever with the marks are awarded that is finally converted out of fifty range. Sir actually this is the syllabus for CSA students. Rooms and references are there and it is totally to the hands of teacher what as a book. Then this is the subject for the course semester. We are introducing here a seamless list and somewhat to the Java extent the practicals are taken in the course. You use staff stroke is it? Yes. Just go down to this introduction to programming course so you do actually start with the basic internal architecture of computer with ALU and memory and so on. And we have this programming with her Pascal in a course semester we have concept in programming language. So this you use Pascal is it? Yes. We have a concept in programming language. That is a programming language course. Concept. I know but I am talking about programming not programming language. Here you use Pascal as a mechanism. As a mechanism. And you are anyway covering the basic data structures so types and arrays and some algorithms sorting searching. This is more to the ground level. The programming is there and where you have to work yet you just convert the logic of your Pascal to a C and C++. That is a lab or that is a separate course? It is a parallel course. Numerical programming and all that. Along with the introduction to programming. Yes. But now in the new syllabus everybody will be doing introduction to programming in first year. In the only sir. They will be doing C programming but they will essentially be doing exactly the same thing. Arrays and... 80% the same. The concepts that they will be learning. See programming language according to me as I said and according to most of us here is completely irrelevant. In fact we do not have mention of C or C++ or this ordinarily or as I said oracle or whatever. So the course name here is like introduction to programming is called programming and utilization. Computer programming utilization. So basically you will be teaching them some simple data structures, data types, control structures and the programming language chosen to explain this will be C. I think this is an important point that we should all start making in our course. By nomenclature in practically most places the course is known as C course or C++ course or Pascal course or Koval course or something. It is detrimental to the notion of learning and teaching programming. And that is acknowledged universally except in India. So we have to actually force this philosophy of nomenclature amongst ourselves and also amongst our students. What we are teaching is programming. It so happens that we are teaching programming using C or Pascal. It doesn't matter here. So when you said they have to convert the logic from Pascal to C that problem is treated as a trivial problem. In fact I need not have a course in C. What is our expectation you know at the end of the first course? Suppose earlier we used to teach procedural programming use FORTRAN. It didn't matter what we use. We said that once you know procedural programming concepts then no matter which new programming language is required to be learned within seven days and seven nights you should be able to write good programs in that language. That should be the logic. For our students you just learn the methodology of any programming language. But here you are still using Pascal. That is out of fashion at most places. That is the fundamental block because the students who are out of this C they are the founder for the new languages. They are not a user. I think so. They should know the ground reality. The ground reality is not necessarily Pascal. That way procedural programming FORTRAN updates Pascal by several decades. Not several decades at least one decade. At least eight years. Pascal is a benchmark. Pascal is a benchmark. FORTRAN is far away but Pascal is... You can see your hit a nest of bees by raising this issue because ten people here would have ten different opinions. In IIT Bombay the only person who would love you for saying this is Professor Rajeev Diwar. One of the best algorithms expert and one of the best theory guys in the country and probably in the world and who still writes programs in Pascal. The point is if you have a competition with him writing programs in C he can beat you most easily in C. He can do that in any other programming language and that is the strength. So actually programming language we should not even consider as relevant unless the programming language is so bad that it cannot initiate and obviously bring out the basic concepts of programming. Your answer to my FORTRAN thing should have been that FORTRAN might have come before Pascal but it is simply not well structured in the original form. However FORTRAN 90 if you see is as good as Pascal in control structures as good as this thing in... Do you know that the country's first railway reservation system on deck machines was written in FORTRAN? Not you and me but our elder relatives did their railway booking using a FORTRAN system because they decided to buy a PDP 1170s or something and they found out that the cobalt compiler runs slower than FORTRAN compiler on those machines, on the deck machines and they found that the FORTRAN machines permitted use of index and relative files. So the deck FORTRAN had these features and they decided to use FORTRAN to implement the first class business application. So that is why I am just going to say that language is important but it is not the most important. Anyway, so this... Actually I approach of our department is like that we want to create something. Other people are learning a language they are from also BA, BICOM and all that background but if we are from a technology and that is based to a computer science then you must be a creator of a new language you thought like that. So I would like to comment. Anyway, I think we will postpone this discussion for the pedagogy thing because what she is saying is all relevant there. Do you have a question paper sample by any chance? So no marks are given it is totally in the hands of teachers. No, no, but students must know now how many marks are given. They don't know. They know the practice of teacher how they are teaching in a classroom and how he evaluates the thing. That is not compulsory to give the marks. Agreed, but should I not know? It is like changing the goal post after I have made a goal. So you are saying that you made a goal there but the goal post is here. They are known. The goal patterns are there so there is no problem at all. That's okay, that hardly matters. But you see this is the kind of pattern by the way which is followed in IIT is in IS. So straight away and you can see now that each question is actually initiating some programming concept behind it also and you definitely don't repeat questions right or you do? No sir, we are not repeating the previous but then you might be repeating it by mistake. But every time sir we are not repeating any such problem. Okay, okay, good. Which one is this? This is 8, I want to know. You do have a sort of theory question there where you are explaining how sparse matrix would be handled. Okay. You see you have further this thing this by the way is very interesting consider the following Pascal life program. So no claim is made that the program is exactly correct as per Pascal syntax. But you see how important programming concepts come out. So that is why I say that language is not it is important, it is not the most important part. Anyway, but here some teacher has decided to give marks which I like. Okay. So marks are there for for external in our department we already know that what should be there. Students are also known. I don't have an introduction to the programming but it is the part and parcel of decision. So these kind of assignment we usually give and the submission dates. If you see that the submission dates are already there. Oh so these are actually dates given when you when you allocate the assignment and they actually have to write the programs during their lab or whatever. Sir they are free. According to the given assignment they are. So what do they submit? They submit the program listing and some documentation. They either submit the program or whatever with the nature of that particular assignment according to that. We usually take a Viva. Oh hash table in the first programming course no it is fifth semester. No it is. I don't have that assignment. No no that's okay that's okay. I read that. You can put it up there. You have Linux and Fedora on your desktop. And what servers do you use at the back end? For programming we don't need like that. So for example if you want to give a programming assignment to the lab it will have to be loaded on each individual machine if you don't have a common server. No so what is that setup I want to know. Do they use any Windows 2000 servers are there. But can they be used as file servers for example. And the number of teachers you mentioned How many students do you have? No but this 60 is for CSE. Consider the first year programming course which you will be teaching from July. So how many branches do you have? Five I think. Six. So about 400 people. And these 400 people how will you run the lab or that is being planned as you No first year course, computer programming course so each department will run the lab separately. Sir we are actually planning in that. Yeah but who will coordinate it then. So how many teachers will be teaching this course. Four teachers to 400 students means 50-50 you will make 8 batches or something and each teacher will teach 2 batches. And you will have A, B, M, T, students as TAs for the lab work but the same teachers will not necessarily conduct the lab is it. But who decides the lab assignments and things like that. So about four teachers. Thank you.