 Welcome to the last set of news to get top stories in crypto and a big amount of bite-sized pieces today instead of talking about the news What I want to do is really dig into the lawsuit The chapter 11 bankruptcy with Celsius and to a lesser extent with Voyager And there's a couple of questions that have come up actually many questions from a lot of the viewers from the last Videos that we've done and what I did was I reached out To some contacts just to get some information and to experts who could help me answer a bunch of these questions And it came back McConnell and Valdez one of the largest and oldest law firms in Puerto Rico that also branches in Miami in New York and I got an expert and his name is Najuan Zorobani, Trinidad and He is a bankruptcy expert lawyer and he's been doing this for 15 years And what I did is I sat down with him and asked him some some basic questions about the reorganizations What exactly is chapter 11? How does that differ from different bankruptcy? Where things are going how this is going to affect regulation and more so without further ado Let's jump in and talk to Najuan and before we go on just so you know, this is not legal advice So please consult with your own lawyer. So let's jump in All right, buddy. So as promised I brought somebody in here who could really shed some light on exactly what's going on in these proceedings Now, this is just a general overview of bankruptcy because I am not a lawyer So again, I brought Najuan in to tell us exactly what it is. Najuan Thanks again for stopping by this is going to help a lot of people just understand the process Thank you for the invitation. Happy to be here. Yeah, this is gonna be good This is gonna be good because I can only tell him so much in my layman's turns So I got four questions for you and it's gonna go it's gonna go from this First of all, what's bankruptcy? How you define that and what are the different chapters in bankruptcy? The next one is let's go over these first day proceedings for the Celsius and just really break it down There's a couple of key questions that I tried to answer But I need somebody who is more of a professional like yourself Next up what makes a chapter 11 successful in your experience because you are going through a lot of those And in your law firm right now, that's what you do and then lastly How does this case transfer to general crypto regulation? I think as time moved forward, we're going to take a look and say well This could actually set precedent especially with the proceedings that are going on right now. So My man First one What is bankruptcy and to find the different chapters in such bankruptcy so we can actually understand and move forward Sure, no problem. So bankruptcy first of all is a legal protection It's a statute on as one of the federal statutes called the bankruptcy code So the concept of bankruptcy is fairly simple The first one is it allows a debtor the debtor is, you know, basically the one who has all the debt cannot pay it out It's insolvent that allows him on an opportunity to pay their debt and get out and get a fresh start At the same time it has a dual purpose a lot. It allows creditors on organized fashion in order to collect and puts them in priorities And enlist to collect so it avoids a run to the courthouse so that the debtor can operate So in a nutshell that essentially is what bankruptcy Is so and then we we talk about the chapters people hear about the concept of chapters So the bankruptcy code is divided into different chapters So that's the reason why you have chapters, but the main ones are And we hear chapter seven chapter seven bankruptcy. It's a liquidation Usually an asset based bankruptcy where you take the debtor's assets And you pay out the creditors as much as you can until you shut it down The next that you have is a chapter nine that does not apply here, which is a municipal bankruptcy I'm involved in a case which is basically a chapter nine Correct Then you have a chapter 11, which is what we have here with the Celsius bankruptcy as well as with Voyager Chapter 11 is a reorganization the it's mostly used by Corporate or commercial debtors Even individual maybe high net worth individuals who could file to chapter 11. It's a more complex process The idea of a chapter 11 bankruptcy is you get a plan a reorganization That ultimately gets confirmed and you pay everyone out does not mean you pay everyone 100 But you pay them what they're entitled to under the bankruptcy code And those are the main ones that you'll see you have others such as chapter 12, which is for family fisherman chapter 13 Which is individual bankruptcy reorganizations and chapter 15 Which coincidentally is what in three hours capital is And that is a multi jurisdictional bankruptcy. It's essentially a foreign bankruptcy that you could file in the united states Gotcha, so that one seems a heck of a lot complex. We'll left we'll let three hours capital deal with that So chapter 11 reorganization not liquidation. We're trying to get us some kind of consensus and move ourselves forward So let's break it down a little bit further So let's talk about the first day proceedings and really go over some some of the different statements that were put forth by council Which I didn't really understand perfectly. So that's why I'm glad you're here So this is the first day proceedings. Again, if you want to find this, there's a link in the description You can find it yourself. This is exactly what was presented to the judge And here's the big questions that came up the key legal questions Let's just go over the first one by the numbers number one Are the crypto assets and celsius possession property? Of the estate is the answer this question different for crypto assets held under the custody versus the earn program Yeah, it's a loaded question And what about crypto assets transferred to celsius to collateralize institutional and retail loans? So really this is like a three for one type of question So najoan, what do you think about this one? Yeah, so This one is going to be a very interesting Question and and by the way these bankruptcies it's important to understand they are cases of first impression on Many of the crypto industries and these type of Crypto institutions which you would deposit and transfer your wallets and your crypto into it So this is really going to set precedence of what's going to happen going forward So let's take that first question A couple of key in order to answer the first question, which is the crypto assets and celsius possession property of the estate It's important to understand the concept property of the estate once uh debtor such as celsius files for bankruptcy You have to define what the estate estate is it's essentially all of the assets that the debtor has as of the petition date Petition date being the date they file for bankruptcy. That's when the estate is created So you take all of the assets Legal and equitable and you put them in their property of the estate So another key component. It's not there. It's important to understand. It's what's a creditor A creditor is any person or entity who is owed money by the debtor by celsius in this case Or who have a claim against Celsius that will ultimately be paid out and you know in money or some sort of payment So going back so the first question the reason why it's a bit loaded Are the crypto assets property of the estate is an excellent question Because celsius and their council similar as has happened with voyager have taken the position That when customers transfer their crypto wallets into their platforms That the platform itself celsius or voyager is now the owner Of that crypto because of the terms of use Which indicates that you know, there'll be the owners of it and they're now taking the position that the customers who deposited Or who transferred that crypto into the platforms are now creditors Because to the extent that celsius is now the owner and you lent it to them You're the equivalent of a bank collecting on a loan, right? So that is a position council is taking now. Let's head on over to the second question Okay, so so before we go on there's gonna be people screaming at the screen right now And they're gonna say but that's not was told to me And these amas and the different proceedings and different tweets and things like that in the terms of service Yes, we we went over that and just clearly states You if you give us the cryptocurrency that is a property of ours. We do with it as we see fit But as it was put out it didn't seem like that's the way it was Can you speak on that? It can you talk to it to that and then how does that work? Is it it's in the terms of service while it's in terms of service even though it was misrepresented outside So it's an important point to understand first things first. Yes, it's in the terms of service And there has been a lot of representations But the important factor before we start talking about this bear in mind That this presentation that we're talking about was put out by Celsius and Celsius council They are not the customers council. They represent the interest of Celsius So the position that Celsius is taking is that these cryptos That have been transferred into the platform now belong to Celsius If that is what the court ultimately decides, that's a big question mark. We do not know And it goes back to the same points that you were bringing Rob, which is the issue is There have been representations different representations different marketing materials Celsius at one point represented that they're it's banking for the unbankable And you transfer your crypto you earn rewards. You could get take loans against it so It gave the impression that you were the owner You know the terms of you say one thing But if ultimately the court finds That this is is it Celsius crypto or is it the customer's crypto? And that also leads to another swath of questions that trickle down from there Such as what type of asset is this Who is the owner of it? Who is the holder? Is it in possession? So these are big questions That the court needs to take into account and the court needs to answer in order to move this case forward Gotcha, so it it makes sense. There's a good thing that you said is that there's a dichotomy here between who the council is for It's for Celsius. It's not for the debtors the creditors and things like that. Okay, so that'll be the first part Sorry to interrupt you. So for the second part Sure, the answer the question different for crypto assets Correct. So this is going to be very important and this dovetails from the first question If these are assets are in the procession of Celsius So does that change if it's in the custody or the earned program? so Celsius is pulsing this question and they're working off of the terms of use And for your viewers, you know, kind of refresh their memory back in april 15 2022 Celsius change their terms of use in terms of what happens with the earned program the crypto that's in the earned program versus the custody program There's language in the terms of use as of april that crypto in the earned program Belongs to Celsius now Does how does that language contrast? To what has been marketed to come to consumers from the first day in Celsius, right? And what the court will rule on whether this terms of use trumps The other circumstances with regard to who the owner of the crypto is This is a huge inquiry that needs to be answered. And like I mentioned It's a threshold question To move this case forward or in fact, how this case will move forward Gotcha. Okay. So that takes care of of that piece right there, but then Let me come back here. So then the last piece which was I don't know if we've gone over this per se We talked about what about crypto assets transferred to Celsius to collateralize institutional and retail loans So this is interesting according to the terms of use If you took out a loan The the crypto would be moved if I'm not mistaking into the earned program I don't recall if it was the earner of the custody long story short It would be in Celsius's possession And in fact an important point is that I think the differentiating factor you're trying to make is that if it's in the earned program It's Celsius's property. I believe that's where they're going if it's in the custody program It's a big question mark on whether they're holding it in bailment or they're hold it in In custody for the benefit of the the consumer in which case the the consumer would be the owner of the crypto, right? If you took out a loan The where the crypto was being kept was transferred. So if it's now in Celsius's Uh, let's say purview There they might try to make the argument that those collateralized crypto against the the margin loan so to speak That is now the property of Celsius again all of this Bear in mind. This was put out by Celsius counsel. This is Celsius's presentation to the world and their view of the world of worth things stand or how it should go forward If that holds in port is a different question altogether. It's a you know, it might be a different reality Yeah, and you know what just what you said it made me think though Which is what you said if the council is there for Celsius The in it would be hooves Celsius to actually say well You give us that collateral because if you're a retail investor like myself You have to 2x 3x or 4x what you were actually taking out and if that's the case And they want to say well, let's keep 2x or 3x. That's a pretty good deal for Celsius Not saying that is what is going on, but I could see where they would make the argument Makes a lot of sense. Okay. So from there Let's break down these next three because I think they're all kind of uh in conjunction with each other What does it mean to unimpair a crypto claim or to pay a crypto in full? Our customers and how the return of crypto in kind and the amount of crypto claim Is determined as to what date what date what time distribution date and everything else? How does it all three come together? Okay It is this very important to under to explain I indicated previously that the purpose of a chapter 11 Uh bankruptcy is you have a plan of reorganization Right in that plan of reorganization you classify creditors And you have them into different groups They vote in favor or against the plan And the bankruptcy code requires that you provide treatment to those creditors in a certain manner The concept here that we're talking about is impairing or unimpaired The that concept what it means is if you're let's say a typical creditor Let's say I have a loan with you and the terms of the loan say you'll pay me back 100 with three $100,000 with three percent interest If you honor those terms to the g my claim is unimpaired It means I have and it means I don't collect and fool will not have a problem However, depending on the type of creditor you are you might collect just cents on the dollar 20 cents 30 cents I'm just throwing numbers out there. I'm not sure sure not saying is yeah correct So in those cases you're being impaired Because you're not collecting in full and you're not collecting under the original terms of the agreement So going back to this question. What does it mean to impair or unimpair a crypto? This is another of those You know first impression matters that a bankruptcy judge will have to define with regards to crypto and bankruptcy when you're a creditor You typically when you fill out a proof of claim and I believe it you put out a video showing the form Right and you state the amount of the debt And what is your creditor and what is the basis and the nature of your debt and you file it etc That proof of claim is important because I don't entitle you to get your foot in the door to collect under the plan There's a bar date. You don't file a proof of claim by that date. You're out. Can't you can't collect Right assuming you're a creditor So let's let's assume the position that Celsius is taking they're saying that all the consumers who deposited in there the million plus Uh, they're all creditors, right? That's a decision whether the court holds that the different story altogether Then all of them would need to file a proof of claim and they need to say, okay Fine. Let's assume that I had 20 bitcoin And I didn't say not alone. I don't have any usdc I just had 20 bitcoin at the moment Celsius fall for bankruptcy I they're saying i'm a creditor right because they're saying that I loaned them the crypto I need to file a proof of claim What's the amount of my claim? So remember bitcoin is not a stable coin. It's not tied. It's not pegged to a particular currency or some commodity Which you know the value of crypto ebbs and flows in terms of usdc value Let's say that at the time of the bankruptcy filing that bitcoin was worth 20 000 dollars But it's today now it's worth 18 000 dollars. So going back to the concept of impairment If they pay me 18 000 dollars when at the time of bankruptcy it was worth 20 000. Am I being impaired? Or is that just an operation of the market flow of the value in usdc? Another question is and and it it goes In part of that same presentation. Does that mean instead of paying me 20 000 dollars or 18 Do they just pay me back with you had one bitcoin with one bitcoin? Is that the equivalent of being impaired or unimpaired? These are all You know legal conundrums that a bankruptcy judge for the first time has to analyze Usual run bankruptcies a chapter 11 bankruptcies chapter 9 bankruptcies specifically a title 3 in promesa Or I represent a 2 billion plus creditor for years now. Yeah It's in dollars. It's in usdc. They may have bonds. They may have other type of property But at the end of the day you value it all in usdc Crypto has the ability of it being valued one bitcoin Or do I need to value it in usdc? Right and you know what this now I remember so when you were talking about the the file of claims So we took a look at this on our last video and again There's a link in the description that you can find this stretto But on the very top case info court docket case management file of claim if you click on file of claim It'll take you here to an electronic claims filing and when you click on that it'll ask you for a password But all you have to do is request a password. They'll send it to you in your email And you'll get it and you'll be able to actually fill this form out when we filled this form out I thought it was very odd because it asked for a dollar amount and people ask me the same question like well What's a dollar amount? Well, you know what like is it now is in the future? Is it in the middle? So the so the question is because this is so ambiguous if they're asking for a dollar amount just between and of course The joint you don't have to answer this but me personally if I had to figure out a dollar amount I would probably pick the dollar amount for that bitcoin at its highest point Maybe not its lowest point and then go from there And that is that is to say if they even do dollar amounts because as I remember one bitcoin is still one bitcoin I would rather have my one or 10 or 20 bitcoin back on the dollar amount I kind of defeats the whole purpose of whole of all investing So now it makes a lot of sense what you just said because I think it's the mentality of how things are usually done But that's not the case and there's a lot of new nuances in this one for sure Yeah, it's a brave new world with bankruptcy and crypto When the code was written the rules the forms all the regulation No, no one had envisioned a concept of a bitcoin or a crypto As a payment in kind or legal tender as opposed to the us dollar Which you would value the claim or is how you would get paid And now you could get paid with bonds, etc. Maybe you could get a substitute That has happened in chapter 11 complex cases. You might get a substitute stock Substitute bond. Maybe that would be the most equivalent But it all depends on whether the parties are willing to go that route The typical rule of thumb is there's some sort of legal tender some sort of currency to pay a credor The bankruptcy code was not written for this and it hasn't been updated. We don't know if it's going to be updated anytime soon But but that's why these cases are so important It's a brave new world. We're entering into new territory And it's going to be up to the bankruptcy judges in the celsius case and the voyager case To start defining the rules and limitations on how these things are going to move forward Perfect, you know what that would lead me to the question number four. Well, which we'll get to in a second Is how this will actually How this case will transfer to general crypto regulation to set president But before we get into that let's talk about this last one This is the one that I got the most pushback and question about which was number four here can Celsius recover customer withdrawals or loan liquidations completed In the 90 days before filing as preferences meaning can they claw this all back? That was a big shocker to me. But what do you say here? Okay, so a couple of key concepts, which is very important I know you mentioned it in your in your video Which is can they do that? so There's a section in the bankruptcy code that allows for the clawback of certain payments That are made to creditors with the the 90 day period Before the filing on the bankruptcy now. This is what's called a preference And the concept of the preference is There's a presumption that within 90 days before the bankruptcy filing the debtor was insolvent And what they're trying to avoid is a situation where the debtor knowing that it's insolvent is going to say listen I have a hundred creditors I don't have enough money to go around but these three I like them So I'm going to pay them in full 90 days before filing for bankruptcy And what the preference concepts looks into is whether this credor it's in the it's in the title was preferred By the debtor to the detriment of the other creditors Right. It was preferred by the debtor. I'm sorry to the detriment of other creditors And that's why it has this clawback powers to bring the money back so they could distribute all of the creditors evenly The the idea behind the preference is that that credor cannot collect more than it usually would have in the bankruptcy Okay, so that's what the 90 days in the clawback means now. Let's transfer that to celsius So the position that celsius and their council are taking Is that if i'm a customer who deposited my crypto in the platform They're saying that I lent it to them, right? I became a lender They are a debtor and i'm a creditor, right? So to the extent that I withdrew or made transfers within 90 days, I collected on my quote-unquote debt And air go I fall within the scope of a preference Okay, so this opens up another can of worms which The preference litigation is very common in in chapter 11 cases. It's while this is separate Basically like a complaint under the bankruptcy, right you have different defenses that the reason I say this opens a separate can of worms is This force is a separate question. I know you and I discussed about this previously Which is okay fine to understand whether There's a preference or there isn't a preference We need to understand the basic question. What is crypto in the eyes of the bankruptcy? What is crypto? Is it stocks? Is it a commodity? Is it a currency? Is it a general intangible? Is it a bailment? I'm throwing a lot of legal concepts I'm not going to go through each and one of them, but let me tell you why that question is important For example under the bankruptcy code if it's considered a currency or could be considered a currency There are protections in the bankruptcy code that would Not allow the preference to go forward potentially We'd have to look into it, especially if they treat it as a swap agreement So I I could foresee someone taking litigation posturing In challenging what the crypto is in the event of a litigation of a preference And that also bears into mind if it's security it could have ramifications and consequences Goes back to the fourth question that we talked about right a currency. It also could have ramifications down the road in fact This also leads a big question Going back to the bankruptcy in the first day Which is could have Celsius and Voyager even file bankruptcy That's a big question, especially we talked about with SIPA and broker dealers So so let's talk a little bit about that So it's important to understand The bankruptcy code Identifies who can be a debtor who can file for bankruptcy right and there are certain entities who are You know who can either file a particular type of bankruptcy or cannot even file for bankruptcy at all So you mentioned SIPA. That's a securities investors protection act If you're a broker dealer and in the typical stock market, etc broker dealer, right? Do you have under SIPA? You would be regulated under SIPA Do you have an ability to wind down under the statute? Or if you choose to go to bankruptcy, you're limited to do a liquidation You know a stock broker bankruptcy, right for example The type of operations that Celsius and Voyager had Was a commodity broker broker. They say that crypto is a commodity. This is a commodity broker Then under the bankruptcy code, you could only liquidate as a commodity broker. That's in section 761 onward. Okay So this if it's a bank That's another question bankruptcy code Does not allow banks to go into bankruptcy. They're So if if you start looking at the building block, okay, so I transferred my wallet Into Celsius. I started earning rewards. Is that interest to my deposit? I started taking a loan against it. Is that just a general loan? It's it starts raising questions if it quacks like a bank, but walks like a stock broker. What is it? What is it? That's the big question and that that's where that this really will come down to What the judge decides to how far this will go and what they define it as it seems like and remember everybody So we're just going through one page of this First day imagine how much documentation that these everybody has to go through. This is a complex Way more complex than than what I gave a credit for okay So we broke those things down as you want. Thank you so much. That makes a lot more sense A lot of things to consider Let's go into I think what what people are really wondering, which is this What makes a chapter 11 successful in your experience and you've had You know years and years of experience doing this So how do people get to a resolution? Is it all just okay chapter 11? And then all the businesses just go away. They all get liquidated or Is there a way through? so I've been doing bankruptcy for 15 plus years Been involved in a lot of chapter 11's like I mentioned the latest case that I've been involved is the largest bankruptcy in the history of the united states Which is a municipal bankruptcy of the commonwealth of perico under a special statue that is similar to chapter 9 You start seeing after so many years particular trends Chapter 9 operates similarly to a certain degree to chapter 11 and in the other chapter 11's as well But let me break down the basics of it. Okay, you have a plan To pay the debt and you group creditors in classes So what makes a chapter 11 successful? The chapter 11 case that is has the ability to reach More consensus than less consensus One of the things that I mentioned I want to highlight in chapter 11 after you group the creditors into classes Each class prior to confirmation needs to vote on the plan So they either accept or they reject the plan if you're able to get a hundred percent acceptance You still need to go through some legal requirements that the that the court has to look into But it makes the case quote unquote easier because you start seeing a trend of everyone moving towards confirmation So what typically happens in these particular cases? There's there might be some litigation You probably it's very rare that you see a chapter 11 case that it's all or nothing litigation that is resolved exclusively on litigation That it's not practical So at the end of the day you litigate to reach resolution. So you might litigate some points You might win some lose some or settle some right? But at some point you start getting momentum on settlements to the extent you're Able to reach more settlements quicker And faster with more groups that is usually a good indica statistically that you have a higher Percentage rate of success in the chapter 11 doesn't mean it's absolute because at the end of the day If the plan for example is illegal Violates of bankruptcy code completely the judge is going to be hamstrung is not going to be able to to confirm it But assuming it passes muster and you're able to garner that support quicker faster and easier With more people that increases your likelihood of success I don't I believe that this case is will operate under the same dynamics Gotcha. Yeah, and the case that you're working on now. Uh, this is for the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico How many years has this been going on? And you're just getting now that case was filed in may 3 2017 The case was finally confirmed on january 16 2022 And we're talking about Huge amounts of litigation that ensued But at the end of the day the building blocks were there Consensus started to get reached with different group of creditors And you started seeing a momentum Gotcha I can kind of on on on some of these on some of these days I can feel I can see that there's there's some kind of momentum going on But then there's always like a little roadblock. So hopefully this Catches acceleration and we can move forward, but that makes a lot of sense consensus Everybody votes on it moves forward. You're never going to win a hundred percent You're going to have to give and take and then off you go. Hopefully we can make some of these investors are Celsius and Voyager can make these investors whole. That's not our job though. That's just our job And as a saying goes it's better to have a bad deal than a good litigation sometimes So That's that's a max and some lawyers operate off Yeah, I could I can see that so that so that answers a big chunk of that now Let's just go to the last part which I think is is what I'm always preaching on this on this show It's not very popular, but I do believe we need regulation to move forward especially just to get out of the The the conundrums of of the downfalls and pitfalls of what crypto Can be and should be and I think that we just need a little bit of just not Stifling regulation but the question is how does this case transfer to general crypto regulation because the judge has to make a Lot of decisions and will this set precedent and how can this move forward? What do you what do you say here? So It's going to be very interesting here. So the way I see it Crypto is getting to that point of our relationship where someone needs to stand up and ask What are we? Where are we going? What's happening here? Uh, this is not uncommon. For example the dot-com Uh, you know the bubble that happened at one point Faced that similar question and had a watershed moment And did that mean that the internet went went away? No, it didn't Uh, but there were a certain a set of rules and an understanding of how things would move forward Afterwards, so we're talking about after the bubble burst in the 90s So I don't know if we're there yet But I can definitely tell you that just looking at the legal questions That celsius posted itself many of them will require a hard conversation Either a resolution by the court or a hard conversation moving forward. Let's start with the first thing What is celsius? What is voyager? Are these platforms banks? Are they broker dealers? Are they commodity brokers? Do they need to be regulated by sipa or not? In fact, the judge in voyager flagged That they had a concern On whether voyager even filed the correct bankruptcy It seemed to imply that they were looking at voyager as a broker dealer And if that's the case, it would have to go through a chapter seven liquidation under 741 at sec, right? So we're not talking about hypotheticals. These questions are actually being posed And then that brings us to another subset of questions after to identify what type of relationship are we? But the typical what are we here? The next question is, you know, how does this work? It goes back to is crypto currency Is crypto stock Is crypto commodities general intangible bailments? You name it that the The different type of situations on how you define this type of asset in the bankruptcy Right and depending on how that so the first thing is if those questions are posed and answered Depending on the answer you'll start seeing Parties who need to take action. So if a bankruptcy judge were to be inclined to believe this is stock That'll generate pressure on the sec to start to look into it Any question if they believe this is a broker dealer, the sec will be pressured into having to look into this uh also And whether it needs to be under sipa, etc Other questions that arise is who is the owner here of this going forward Can we trust these type of platforms going forward if there's a determination that you use these platforms? And you lose all your ownership rights on the crypto and it becomes the debtors in the event of a bankruptcy Will you ever trust a platform like that going forward? Do we even need a particular regulator for these type of a marketplace? These are all the things and see like like these things like the the last thing you just talked about first of all Thanks for that that concise answer The question then then becomes well will anybody ever trust these type of platforms these earn platforms? And then we had talked about this before and I said I don't think anybody is going to however I just remembered there was this hack in 2014 for mount gox and after mount gox they were the hap the hack nobody Trusted exchanges and now fast forward eight years later. Actually just a couple years later for that Look what happened Exchanges are abound Everything grows and there's just more more around there. So the optics just the optics of it I think people's memories are very short Unfortunately, I mean not for my subscribers. They're all very very genius smart But it's it's uh, it's important to to recognize these problems that are going for it so That's concerning, but I can understand why if the sec and the cftc is going to have to come down and say well What is this? This is security is as a commodity the occ is as a currency and go from there But I can understand now why these cases are bigger than what we are What we may have believed in the beginning so Ajuan you answered them all to to uh to my delight and I appreciate you coming by I really do Any last last things any comments that we uh, maybe have missed we've covered a lot of information a short amount of time I believe we we have covered a lot of information in a short amount of time Honestly, I believe we're going into uncharted territories. This is Crypto is trying to get into a point where the rubber beats a road. It's becoming more mature It's definitely become a big investment has an impact in the economy I wonder viewers who understand that Back in 2008 when the economy fell And the subprime lending, you know, there was some sort of regulation But it was not heavily observed and followed as it currently is in fact when that market crashed The consumer financial protection bureau was created. So bear in mind I don't know if we're at a juncture where there's a big enough crisis That you know heavy-handed regulation needs to be taken in or the government needs to step in But going to exactly what you mentioned what what happened in mount gox There was the theft with the with the blockchain recently by these two individuals that was Investigated by the justice department. Now we have to these two bankruptcies. We're starting to see a lot of very important and benchmark questions on the marketplace and on cryptos that are starting to be raised and They start creating little crises So the question is is if we're at a tipping point On those little crises that need this needs to be taken a look into but what I would just generally say is You know It's happening the questions are there They have to be posed and unless everyone is able to reach a complete absolute consensus in this case And when we avoid the questions altogether Some hard answers need to be brought in and those will Have repercussions down the road. So I I for one. I'm actually looking forward To seeing how this develops. I do not want to be the sitting judge in any of these cases to answer these questions But it's nonetheless very very interesting Yeah, it's interesting for for you the justice department for gary genzler the sec for the cfdc and more importantly The people that had trusted these two platforms to move forward So anjuan, I want to say thanks again for stopping by if you have time later on I'll we'll have you back on again. We can talk about it, but I know you're a busy guy, but I want to say again. Thanks Thank you. All right, everybody. So let's jump back All right, so that was pretty comprehensive and I want to say again Thank you anjuan for coming by and just answering all these questions that can kind of give us a little more clarity Now, I know there's a longer road to go But at least we know Exactly the stipulations and different parts of this chapter 11 and we can move forward So if you like today's video and those a little bit long to give me a thumbs up that'd be great I'll also consider subscribing a lot of things we talk about are very time sensitive Especially these types of instances. So thanks so much for stopping by. I do appreciate it I'll see you on the next one