 targeting terms and resell those targeting terms in the middle of the ecosystem undercutting publisher pricing right and this is I'm just using this as an example because it's when I have to be particularly familiar with and like is this potentially fair use and I don't know is it a copyright or plagiarism issue I don't know about that either but I do think that at the very least we should be able to think about how providers of data are undercut by it somebody says that they recently when they were like if it goes on long enough you end up destroying all the people whose job it is to write things their jobs are gone and then the future chat GPT has murdered has been murdered by the past chat GPT because there is no longer anything new for it to be trained on except other maybe well-written maybe bullshit chat GPT output right and so I think it's worth as we look at how to use these things and how to consider using these things how people who are providing the inputs can have controls over whether they do or not and how these things might be modeled in order to provide some stake to participants and I'm not interested in cryptocurrency so let's not go down that road but like there's it if my data is being used in this there should be something more to it than just it gets mashed all up into the system which can then say you know it's summarizing me but not writing something very good in that summary but can use that data for other things that might be quite useful I think like it is fascinating too because in some ways the flip side of that is the authorship becomes good enough to be dangerous where like I asked chat GPT for a bio of myself and it has four very subtle errors in it and I publish a lot about myself I put a lot of stuff on the internet there's a lot of source information here and there is enough information that it could write something that looks a lot like my bio but has these very subtle problems and then that itself causes the issue of like I can ask it if it knows a particular author and it knows that author and I can ask it to write something in the style of that author and it writes something but it's not in the style of that author but like how that moves forward and how that interacts with the author's work on the wider web becomes sort of very difficult to parse out moving forward the problems I think are ones of compensation right there's a really great did I link this last time the video by a person named jack saint I might have linked it already but I'll pull it up again but like the point is like is it bad that the problem with AI art you did yeah yeah that's the one right the thing is like is making art fundamentally something that should be more accessible to everyone yeah probably it would be great if we could do this but the the larger problem is that if this starts being used to make it so that artists can't make money like I don't really care about the ontological consequences of soullessness in AI art I do care about the fact that you know my friend can't get a job and therefore can't pay rent and therefore can't eat right so talking about the conditions by which we flip the switch on socialism right I think as we support these types of processes we should be thinking about how do we support accompanying systems that don't cause them to destroy the world not by describing it in the style of a sci-fi author but by being agents used by capitalists in a capital assistant which is I think much more likely to destroy the world than anything it could come up with if you ask it to be a sci-fi author not that I think it's particularly likely to destroy the world but I think that's more likely to cause problems than anything else so this is linked nicely to your question about can capitalism be tipped over and you just referenced socialism too and I'm reminded something I need to fact check but apparently in the early reggae world artists would publish 45s with a B side that was the same song minus their lyrics because they were hoping that somebody else in the community would sample their their instrumentals and include them which was homage which was basically a thing you wanted it was sort of tribute in reference that your music made it up through the family tree of reggae songs so you would be offering up like the grateful dead let people record the concerts but you were offering up your just your instrumentals for that purpose and it would be nice if people who wanted to be artists could make a living in some new and fashionable way while contributing their work to the commons not afraid of being emulated but in fact proud of having something that that some signature that they've created being rift on reference remixed and becoming part of the patrimony that's great I mean yeah they know that that's very fascinating uh Jerry thank you look for it I guess here I keep the back of my mind this all conversation is very interesting I keep going back to like what can we do is there like a high leverage point here and so on and it seems like you know in particular as acceleration is ongoing or we feel it it seems likely that there is and to me it's like I'm going back to what Aaron said about like you know when do we hit stop or like uh and switch to capitalism away from capitalism or you know that's a coordination problem to some extent and maybe like you know again like building the tools or even like the frameworks or the words the you know the vocabulary to enable people affected by these like upcoming likely wave of disruption within capitalism uh could be a good target right we could prepare for that and say like okay what can we do which tools can be developed so that when that hits people they know what to do instead of like all of us just like sort of like uh you know running around I guess or like in a discriminatory way or whatever I've seen is so I guess I go back to the commons always pretty much by default you know like you can imagine and I go back this you know to the idea of like you know how this this models are you know trained and fine tuned and so on and whether like people pulling together or just being able to say you know whatever I produce online from this moment of time onwards is covered by such license or is you know it's meant to be used only by the commons of which I'm part of you can imagine a protocol in which you can say by default everything I produce is in such and such commons it's can be you know like one name and all the people that you know choose the same one are in the same like both to some extent yeah the commons agreement sounds great and I don't know about it so yes two hands I yield um to go along with um Joey's uh reggae anecdote I um Japanese anime is also another place where uh so I just looked it up and found a a semi-source the it's it's illegal to make fan you know indie indie stuff of a commercial you know product so you're not supposed to but but people but the IP owners look the other way so people make fan art it's kind of like the Grateful Dead thing you know it's like as long as we're we're as long as you're not making a big commercial profit out of it you know go ahead it's free promotion um and then uh the they make the point that this person makes the point that some fan art actually gets successful enough to become um become the the real stuff you know they um uh they they wouldn't fork the original IP but based on the work that they did they got enough of a following that they can do their own art as uh you know as pro instead of being like indie stuff all right have you come in here so funny yeah uh yeah tv trip is cool um so I just put in the generative commons agreement because we had a series of conversations in the middle of the pandemic as part of ogm that didn't lead to an agreement we could sort of all point to and and agree with but it was a really nice series of calls provoked partly because one of our members uh michael grossman had a company and he was he was participating in ogm and offering a lot of like comments value etc he was like happily in there but he was trying to figure out how to make his platform work better and so he had a commercial aim as part of his participation and he asked well so what are the ground rules here like what happens if we come up with ideas what happens to you know things that i contribute whatever else so we were trying to create some sort of agreement that you could put up you know put a stamp on your avatar or something else that said hey when i'm participating i participate it's sort of like chatham house rules like if it was successful it would be like chatham house rules be like when i'm participating here's my assumptions about my ideas and and the generative commons agreement which might be one of several flavors one of them could be the i own everything agreement and don't talk to me unless you pay me agreement but the generative commons agreement was meant to stimulate people to contribute to the commons with the knowledge that they would like to make a living somehow possibly as well and to find some of you know some of that balance and again we never finished writing the agreement but there's a bunch of calls i can point anybody to uh that are on youtube that because i uploaded all those calls uh back when uh go ahead arm well yeah uh i was just gonna say i think like that is conceptually pretty interesting uh i'd be interested to see what it could eventually come up with if you went further with it it's it and it's also the other piece of it is the mechanical parsibility of it i've been talking about this which is like there are there is um uh w3c established rights like mechanical like rights language of course creative commons has something that's functionally sort of a mechanically parsable rights language um and then there's like robots.txt which is another iteration of this i think i think it's very difficult to figure out one what exactly we needed to do two exactly how you want it to work and three how you deal with the question of uh fair use in these things and how it works it's very frustrating right because it's like on one hand i am very pro fair use on the other hand if somebody uses fair use to remix your work up in a way that undercuts you it seems to be against the spirit uh of what's going on um but how you make that distinction is not easy to say um i certainly can't and i think that's a space that is very interesting to think about and invest time and consider it agreed um this is a lovely thicket of issues yes i mean um i will read more on the genetic commons agreement but like i think the way before uh Samuel left he said like uh maybe a shared log for what to do i guess we already like uh well we have the shared a shared log idea we have like the uh you know massi wiki rape also and so on to discuss this kind of thing but yeah i mean it does seem like going back to this commons agreement that does seem to tie in way very well with i mean many of the things we discussed today and we have been discussing lately so maybe resurrecting that is in some shape or form could be i will be up for an experiment for this work and uh we have the domain generative commons.org oh nice okay which is good it's not yet that would be a good place for something like this and i don't know how else to host it or what else to do with it but but it's it's a thing nice and right now there is just uh an image of a seedling in some soil and a headline and a link out to some attempts uh yeah there's no there's no actual text in the agreement but there could easily be nice um we've gone sort of our usual call length so we wrap this call over a little we're not at 90 minutes but we've gone kind of a bunch so julian uh before we wrap i was wondering i'm still working on like the notes parsing and combining tool i was wondering if anyone had like progress on that that they'd like to report that would help me influence by design i'm gonna be a little bit slow and putting something together on this because this things got a little crazy and worked this last week and this week but also because i decided this would be a good opportunity for me to learn rust so um i'm very interested in it but i am starting from literal zero so it's gonna be a a little bit longer for me to set up the stuff that i want to set up for this hmm so veda from uh flancia collective i mean you know developing a herona what i've been doing like rust as well and uh yeah so we have like some plugins i mean parsers within a rust now um that's cool could you link that link what the the parsers in rust i'm curious i am in what's talking about okay right and i think community rule is net and shiner yep that's what i'm referring to yeah yeah we're in social co-op i i went to social co-op before because of him and like yeah he's like he's really he's very interesting he's he's working this he doesn't communicate a lot but he's he's like working these same fields he's communicating over his work i mean just what he produces but yeah i know i know it's like maybe i'm just not i'm not i'm probably just not listening to him in the right place he could be interested maybe on like uh maybe he could revise someday i mean i'm talking to him right now about like some projects in social co-op yeah exciting work cool cool cool cool and yes and i'm um because you're also with like the party and so on like i'd be happy to like sync you know like 101 or like we can have like a call maybe post around like this some more technical aspects there if we can if i can help with anything you know yeah maybe let me get a little bit further along since i'm literally starting at zero with rust i think i probably need to push a little bit further through before anything is at the point that feedback could make it better um but yeah i will probably take you up on that maybe in a couple of weeks oh just to say it i don't know if this is impolite or not but gpd4 is is a fun way to help learn a language i say this but i find that i have developers i work with who use um it's it's also ai co-pilot yeah and i find that they very often it is very easy to let it answer the question not learn the answer um and i fear that in myself um got you i have thus far avoided it but i did as an experiment for working with rust since i am starting with zero i did buy a sub for co-pilot to see what it can do for me in this respect we'll say i i haven't tried co-pilot um but i actually really value the conversational way chat gpt and i ferv code i think you want gpd4 um you can have how do you how do you access gpt4 over chat gpt i haven't even gotten into that yet you have to have the 20 a month plus subscription um and then okay that explains it and on the plus you aim it you aim it which engine you want to use because they eat it eats your tokens at different rates uh plus does not oh but you have a but you have an allowance right no you've got a limit which i've never bumped into and i keep hitting all right now it's uh 25 messages every three hours um which actually i you know i wrote the python script with gpt4 and nine prompts uh even though it took me two hours i still can't figure out how that mouth worked out but um 25 is still a big conversation with with the lm sweet um gpt4 is super expensive over the api um you know 20 30 60 times as much as three five interesting well i i did note that like even though it's not natively conversational co-pilot does have a great response to inline comments comments yeah so you can almost have a conversation with it anyway yeah i so the the code experiment i did with gpt4 was you know here write this for me no now add this you know now take that away to change the you know change the endpoint whatever um i also do the same thing with human languages with gpt4 well i mean i i practice with gpt3 5 actually is good enough for human languages and that's like you know um translate this uh you know why would you use this word rather than that word whether the different um different ways you conjugate you know give me the the thing i like most actually is uh write a short story about dinosaurs and rabbits in french right and um and it it feels different to me i don't know if i'm strange or not it feels different to me to be in conversation with somebody that can speak the language and i can ask it to do whatever i want and it's it's different than reading a book because the book has stock things you know and knowing that the bot is making a little story for me and can explain why it did this or why did that or change the names to chinese or japanese or you know switch now now uh now output the same thing in english now i'll put the same thing in german um you know being able to do that with the chatbot feels different than doing it with a human because with a human you don't want to be wasting their time um and the chatbot has all the time in the world and it's different than a book because it's live and interactive and all the little examples are just for you not for you know kind of just a static population of everybody who reads but i can see this transforming bedtime for children yeah including including there could easily be an iPad app that animates whatever story you have it in that oh yeah i have a friend who's trying to wield these right now in whatever in whatever mode or genre you would like right it reminds me a lot of yeah that context reminds me a lot of did you ever see there was a wow a star trek voyager episode where the little girl has a holodeck story um and she and it changes significantly based on some of her inputs in ways that are unexpected it reminds me a lot of that make me remember that it's also a lot like uh neil stevensson's uh diamond age yeah diamond age a young lady's illustrated primer yep yeah fun fact then they they used to expose the don't the url but they don't anymore the original kindle um notes url included a reference to the dying age never remember that that's fun gen tube good idea there's your startup lancin there you go right it would be very expensive right now but probably two years yeah yeah the stuff is just getting easier and easier to do and the image generation stuff is going to get to be real time so it's not even yeah i mean facebook already has like a few um the price of paper right on video generation right yeah so rising before frame by frame very expensive but you could imagine it being like a few years yes from an earlier uh email i went and looked at uh a show that basically creates avatars called ultra ego that um where it's just a sing-off for different singers to present except the singers are off stage wearing mocap stuff with a nice microphone wired in front of their face they perform the heck out of things but what the judges see is whatever avatar they've chosen to be represented as and then doing strange avatar stuff like you could levitate your avatar very easily right so that's being projected on stage i'll i'll put a post uh to the original this is the first episode of ultra ego which i hadn't heard of before that sort of a lower key version or an easier to execute on version of uh the masked singer yes yes and yeah with a lot more a lot more flex on on what you're doing it's interesting i i don't know but but but take that which is live mocap rendered as whatever avatar you want marry it to the thing pete was just describing and drop that any place and you're off and running it's like wow okay i'm we're not going to recognize our world in 20 years interestingly enough even since permer had mocapt actors that played the the parts of the you know the the storyteller wow and and that seemed the whole thing seemed fantastic at the time and now we're not going to need the the lookout it's right really bizarre we can just generate the motion or and in fact you could invent some new poly creature and then have it generate motion that seems natural for that creature and animate the thing i mean like like yeah well once you're in that territory you can you can create anything you want yep very interesting all right gentle friends uh shall we now fold the call yeah thank you so much this is really thanks really awesome thank you thank you and how are you next week uh pete if you want to send me the the recording after recording before oh good yeah uh do stop it but if you want to send me that recording i will upload it as part two because i'm right now uploading part one awesome we'll do thanks thank you so much