 And there's members in the audience is it it's like maybe Peggy just yeah, MJ O'Brien is the applicant. Yes Okay, right it's four o'clock. Oh, hi Yeah, we have a quorum and I believe that Jim will be joining us about Marianne Marianne Marianne will not be joining us today. Yes. We should note that she's Not just she's almost in a battle. She's I think she's her house is about very close by. You're right. She probably did receive in a butters notice. Yeah. But she won't be voting today. So, okay. Yeah, I'll share my screen and to share the agenda. Oh, good. I didn't get if the agenda came. It's in my email and I would be afraid to switch to email now to try to get it up and then come back to this. I'm better off just Using what I've Okay, so should I officially call the meeting to order. I think so. Okay, it's a four o'clock. So I will officially call the meeting of the Local Historic District Commission to order. We have a number of items on the agenda today. The public hearing. There's three items on the public hearing portion of the agenda. And the first is a Margaret O'Brien at 25 Page Street. So I think we'll welcome Margaret and maybe just, you know, briefly go through and Introduce ourselves. So I'm Jennifer Taub. Actually, I and I'm a neighbor, but I'm not in the butter. I did not get a notice. And then we have Peggy. Can we go down to you? I'm not sure what you want me to do. Oh, just introduce yourself for Margaret so she knows who she's speaking with. Okay. Okay, Peggy Schwartz and took a walk past the house this morning was a lovely walk and a sweet house. We can see it. And then we have Bruce Bruce called him. Marcus. Hello. I'm an architect or at least I, I'm walking. Marcus. Hello. I'm an architect or at least I was retired these days, but the commission has a requirement for a person with architectural background and experience and I fill that role. And I was standing outside your house about an hour and a half ago and somebody knocked on the window that I chose to ignore it. And Karen You're on mute. Karen. Okay, and you're on mute. So hover over. Yes. Yes. Hi, Peggy. Hi. I know you. Yes. And Greta. Hi, Peggy. Hi. Okay, so actually I'm not seeing you, Margaret. Yeah, I'll say to our applicant, Peggy, if on the bottom left of your screen, you, it'll have a microphone and it's muted right now. So if you Yep, we can hear me. Yes. How do I get visual? Yeah, but it's okay. So right next to that microphone is a camera looking thing and it says I don't see it now. Oh, oh, okay. And it'll say start video. I don't, I don't see a camera looking thing. And you know, yeah, this is Nate. I'm a lawyer also playing with the town with Ben. I mean, it may be, I realize. Start your video. Okay. Okay. Oh, there you are. Hi, Peggy. Do I exist yet? Yes, you do. No, we still do. Yeah. Becket is relieved. Jesus, I sorry. Yes. I was going to say some computers don't have a camera. Concerned a note of humor. Right. I retired from the UMass English department. All of my younger colleagues are doing this every day for every class they give. And I can't imagine it, but you can actually, I can't see me. You can see me. Yes, we can see you. That's all that matters. I'd rather not see me. Okay. So, um, Peggy, what we, um, we're going to, you know, call on you now that, um, you know, to present, uh, you know, your application and then, um, you know, as members of the commission, we may have some questions for you. And then what we do is we close the, what we call public, you know, portion and then we, um, you'll still be here, but we'll talk among ourselves. Right. Okay. No, and we will. So I won't, I won't hear that conversation, but no, you will hear it. Oh, okay. Yeah. You'll still hear it. So right now that, uh, uh, various, so I better, I better not make as many smart alec remarks. Oh, you can. We're good with that. No, I mean, this is open to the public. Yes. The whole thing is open to the public. The reason we call it the public portion is in case any members of the public also have any questions. Okay. That's, that's, that's, that's really good. Yeah. But, um, so now we'll turn it over to you to present what you're proposing to do to your lovely house. Well, it is a, Ben Burger has started pinch for out for a bigger view. Oh yeah. That's okay. That's okay. Well, I, do you want me to make? Yeah. Yeah. Go for it. Go for it. Um, well, mainly what I have to say is in that kind of proposal I wrote, you know, as part of the application and I don't want to just repeat all that. But let me just say, you know, I mean, it's very funny. I mean, I won't get too theoretical, but authenticity is a very hard thing to pin down, right? And the part of this house that we would like to renovate now is as not authentic as it's possible to be the previous owners. I think the, the owner and the husband and his sons built it themselves. It is a mishmash and a hodgepodge. It wasn't built well. Um, yeah, that's a help. You can, and, um, it can, they added on this back room, which apparently was a dormitory for six of their boys and a deck. Wow. Yeah. Um, and it's, it's crude. It had always was crude. And from the moment we, uh, well, I moved in and then we became we, um, I knew that this was on the long, as we'd say in Ireland on the long finger, it was going to have to be done at some point. Um, it's now, uh, and, um, I didn't get the name of the man that I knocked on the window. Oh, that would be me, Bruce. Yes. I was wearing a blue pullover. Um, you know, you probably saw, even from a distance and you were very discreet, um, that it's the deck is totally dilapidated. And in fact, yeah, and if you look, if I didn't come around far enough to do that, it's, it's, it's, you know, you can't really walk on it. I was, I was almost going to go out and warn you, but I knew you weren't going to do that. Um, and, um, you know, the windows are, are, are, are heterogeneous. They're not all the same that I think they were gleaners and they use what they could find. Um, and so, you know, for us, it's very important to, in fact, restore this and hopefully make it more integral or integrated with the house. Uh, I, I ran this by Ben this morning to, I have to insert something personal because in the proposal I mentioned the importance of a handicap accessible shower and so on. When we hatched this plan, the idea was to have, and of course, Greta, are you there at the meeting? Yeah. Greta's here. And Karine and everybody. Yes. Well, you know who I'm talking about when I talk about when, all right. Right. Right. And you've seen him walk up and down Lincoln with the Parkinson's advancing. Well, uh, when was in ICU for five days last week and a last yesterday, he went into the Fisher home. Okay. And I almost, I called Ben and I said, I don't even know if I can do this. But I decided I had to do it because even though he is in the Fisher home, the Fisher home is such an amazing place that it could be possible for him still to be in this back room and for the hospice staff. If you get my meaning to, to come to it. So that is the object of room. Okay. Um, it, the on the north end of it. There is going to be a handicap accessible shower, you know, a pretty, most of the room, a lot of the room taken up by the shower. Um, and, um, you know, there'd be a closet room for a bed room for, um, you know, maybe a television set or whatever. Um, and, um, she 12 Ben. Yeah. And, and I heard what you said about the, the, the, the, the designating of north and south and east on these drawings is for the birds. You're quite right. Okay. I didn't do that. All right. It's okay. I know Steve well. Again, I should also add that after two glasses of wine. We have no jurisdiction over the inside of the room. No. Oh, only the outside. What I was going to mention is the other thing, this, you do have jurisdiction over and one of the things that would, there, as I see it, there are three things that visually impinge on, on somebody walking down the street. Okay. One would be the, the roof line in the back would be different. In fact, um, then I don't know if you have it, but there's a house, a yellow house on best and the, and the front porch has a roof line. No, that's more ends that no white house. The roof line would be very like that on the front porch there, if you can see it in the back. So that would be one change screened in porch. Obviously, you know, a full story rather than just a deck. And I consider the screened in porch extremely important for when to be able to get out and get air and be safe in all kinds of ways. And this is the other thing which I can imagine. I mean, you know, it changes things. I'm, I'm saying that I would ideally like stairs, going down toward on the, am I right here now on the south end going toward the west toward the street. I think the stairs that are shown are on the north side. Well, I want them. Well, but the deck, the screen porch deck, the screen porch is where you'd want the stairs right on the south side of that. Well, I, or they maybe the west side of that. But this, they would, they would be on the west, they would be in the south side. If you think of the port, the room is going north to south. Okay. Yeah, the screen porch is on the south side. It's on the south side, but the, but the stairs would be on the north Hampton side on the west side. Going down, the object is to have stairs that can have a ramp attached to them for a wheelchair to get out to the street. That's the, and the ramp would run down the side of the house. Yes. Put your cursor there. Yes, there. It would be a portable ramp. It would not be a ramp and the stairs would look like ordinary stairs off a porch. He was okay. But the picture. What? Yeah. It'd be right there. Be right there. Yeah, be right there. Coming down right there. It wouldn't extend any further to come down the stairs. And there'd be a ramp to that walkway. So you could get out. It seems very intelligent. This is what people should be doing. That's a. And it's, it's minimal. I mean, I'm the cloud boards. Would be the same cloud boards. The shingles that the, you know, commensurate with what's already there. The footprint would be no bigger than it is now. I have included houses. From best and incidentally, I'm, I'm devoted to these two streets. Just devoted to them and the houses I love. On best and new newer people coming in and they've made changes that are more dramatic than the one I'm suggesting, but I think they only enhance the neighborhood. We would agree. So as for builders, this is, this is where things get a bit. Difficult. And they go back to the, to the Fisher home. I am still there's, there's still two things. That are undecided up in the air. Still trying to decide on a builder. I don't want to name names. If you need names, I can give you. No, we don't. We don't have a builder. We don't have a builder. We don't have a builder. We don't have a builder. But okay, it has to do with bids and whatever. But the other thing, and this, I talked to Ben about this, about coming to the meeting now. I am. Especially with. Winds condition and the, the, you know, you know, having my temperature taken every morning that I go into the Fisher house now. I'm. You know, you know, you know, I don't have to be wary. I didn't intend that rhyme. Of having a bunch of building done and a lot of people around. Right. The moment. And so this, well, this might be optimistic, but this could be delayed if, if I got permission. Until the spring. But I would. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. To not have to go through, you know, to be able to just do it when, when, when, when, when the time is right. I think you have two years. Is that right? Name. Pardon. Yeah. Or a year, right? Is it a year? Oh, is it a year? Yeah. Oh, it's at least. At least a year. Yeah. Yeah. Year. That is. Yeah. I don't know what happens, but what I also wanted to say, and I know this isn't your. Ambit. Okay. But one of the things that you will all have noticed about dear. Page street is the way it gets pretty. Congested down at the end here. Right. And whenever building goes on in this cul-de-sac. The building, the building. And what have you. And as you will have seen, Mr. architect, I am not a gardener. And so I have said. We're going to, we're going to landscape this after. The building. And so the builders can drive onto that. Side. Yard. Backyard. And because peers will have to be put in. Because the, the, the, the, the, the current deck is just so. You know, it was so badly put together. So. So that's it. And I think there's one omission, but it's not really no mission because we haven't decided on it, but I do realize that if we wanted air conditioning in this room, that would be another thing I'd have to apply for, but I'd apply for it separately. And. Other than that, you asked me questions. You know, I, I, does that cover most of. Yeah, that's. I don't know. Yes. I, I don't. I don't have any questions. I don't think. I think I understand. I understand the drawings. I understand what you're doing. I understand that basically that. I don't. We can, we can talk about the roof. Some. Shed. Addition. Well, the Shed is that term for the roof. The slope of the roof. It's a single. You know, I like the term generally for what it, what it is. So the, the, the, the roof plane. The slope of the roof is being turned 90 degrees. And it's a bit of a butterfly. roots that go over porches on either side. It seems to me to be, I mean, well, my opinion doesn't matter for the moment. What matters is that I don't have any further questions, but others might have, because the drawing set wasn't as easy as, what there wasn't that would have helped was a three-dimensional drawing or two drawings. I think the most, for me, the most helpful, well, I mean, this is just Greek to me, but for me, the east elevation, has it got the east elevation, right? Is it the east? I don't think, yeah, the east elevation and the north floor plan are the most helpful things. Yeah, east elevation, north elevation, east elevation. Yeah, I think the east elevation. So that's the elevation looking from the back bench. Yeah, I just wanted to say, there's no gable window, there's just this pointed roof, and then the gable is up above. So, you know, it's already exists. The stuff in back already exists. So it's only that little A-shaped roof, and the porch roof is not that different from what exists now, because he had to integrate it somehow with the new bit. So the roof plane on the right-hand side of that drawing is the existing porch roof, which melds into a cross gable that goes in the 90-degree direction. And so it's even, you know, you'd really have to crook the old neck to see that kind of A-shape. But the deck, as it exists now, is only halfway up, and this would be a full height, the screen and porch. Would go across the width of the house? No. No. No, it would just go, let's see. Maybe there's one, maybe go to a floor plan. It just goes a little way up. It goes, I think it's almost where the deck is now. Right, so you can see the porch is just up above. Oh, it doesn't go toward to the front of the house. No, no, that's what I'm saying. This is really minimal. Right. Well, even if it did, that would be fine. Yes, we don't have to be convinced about the smallness of the change. We need to be convinced that it's appropriate. Right. Yeah, I was going to say, you have a clear property map. Pardon? Yeah. I think, you know, some of it is, you know, my questions would be, what are some of the, there it is, great. You know, some of the details on the windows, are they similar in the porch? In some instances, some of this won't be really visible from the street. To answer that question, the windows that are there now are an unholy heterogeneous mess. I think they just use what they could find or all different windows. And the windows we would use would be like the windows in the main part of the house, the old part of the house, if that makes sense. Not, not, not replacing the kind of the windows that are there. Because they are, they'd be like that. But not the way the windows are now. They're a riot. You know, they're every kind of window you can imagine. I really mean it. It's hilarious. I'm sorry. No, I should have taken a picture of it. And may I just say this isn't your ambit either, but one of the joys of trying to arrange any kind of renovation on this house is that we have the distinction of being the epicenter of the old sewer system in this area. And practically, I think maybe three sides of the house are enclosed by the old sewer system. You're right. Yeah, I know I'm right. And the old sewer is, I believe, underneath this room. But because it's always been underneath this room, we're okay with it. But we couldn't go out to the side or either side. We are sewage central. So, well, this is probably a matter for the building inspector. So I have a technical curiosity, but I'll let it ride because it's not my business. Is that the business building inspector? No, it's Rob Mora is the head of inspection services. And he's got a number of people and they're good. And they'll make sure that the foundation and the sewer have an agreeable marriage. Well, it's very important because it could wreck the lives of everybody around us. Yeah. You know, seriously. Because there are a number of ways in which... Very small sewer. You might want to look into diamond piers. Diamond? I'll talk to Steve. Is Steve Schreiber continuing to work for you? No, this was a discreet piece of work. I haven't asked him to do anymore. This seemed sufficient. If you have any problem figuring out what the foundation is, have your contractor or whomever give me a call and we can talk about it. I don't need to take people's time here. I've solved these problems before, but this is way outside the... That's very kind of you. In relation to the sewage system and everything? The issue is the marriage of an acceptable foundation system with an existing sewer that's right below it. Well, you were so good, but what are we hoping? But this is not something we need to talk about here. It's irrelevant to our conversation. Well, no, but it's something that keeps me awake at night because I worry... I'd rather that the less done about with the foundation... I think the foundation is pretty much okay. I don't think we should go near that sewer, but thank you for that. I haven't obviously thought it out and I haven't. Thank you, Bruce. So are there any other questions from the commissioners? Oh, no, and... Hey, hey, Karin. Hi. This is so funny. Is Bruce here too? I'm around, I think. Do you want me... Oh, we have to move to close the hearing if we don't have any more questions. Is there somebody else coming on? I couldn't tell because I got another name that popped up at the bottom. I didn't know if that was an architect. Well, Jim's here too. He's been here for a little bit. Yeah. What was that? Who is this? Another commissioner, Jim Lumley. But I was cut off. I didn't... Do you hear me? Oh, actually, I think Jim's... Jim has his mute on. Yeah, Jim is muted. Okay, Peggy, were you saying something too? Yes, I was saying something, but I don't want to interrupt. No, no. Okay, I couldn't hear me now. Peggy. There are two Peggy's here. This is Peggy Schwartz, who's our... No, I know Peggy Schwartz. Okay, there you go. It's been a while, right? But I just want to say I'm very moved by your planning and the thoughtfulness and the challenges. And I guess, given everything that's going on right now, the emotions are closer to the surface and... They're very close. Got it? Yes. And the truth is, when... When they never get to be in this room, we don't know. But, you know, and it's the pandemic that makes it so iffy, but Peggy, thank you for that. That hits it. Yeah, well, that's what... This is your home, right? We're with you. Oh, this is our home. And we're blessed with it and blessed with... You know, I mean, the neighborhood, I don't know what you all feel, but I feel the neighborhood has become even more beautiful by the year. I agree. I walked this morning from my home to your... I'm taking those walks around the center of town and I love those little streets. We have good friends on the next street over. But just have another reason to... Yeah, unbest in. Yeah, Cathy, Portuguese. You might... I know Cathy. Almost a butthole. But I think maybe one... Yeah, of course. Anyway, this is just a neighborhood that I've always admired and just kind of the quintessential New England neighborhood. You just want to move into it, you know, and... Well, and could I say something else to you all in relation to the visuals? Okay. Even though I'm sure you don't go to this place mentally, but because of the meadow at the back, Gabor's Meadow, do you know, on Besson Street, you all know what I'm referring to, the wetland. Right. In fact, the back of our house is seen a lot. It is. People. You see it from Besson. You see it totally. The whole width of it from Besson. And so that's been a consideration for me because we love that meadow so much. And I love walking over to Besson and looking at the back of the house. And you see the entire thing. So again, it's sort of like the sewage system being around the whole house. You can practically see every... You can see three sides of our house. And it's beautiful. When you say that it's kind of a hodgepodge, I would never notice that. I always admire your house when I walk by it. Oh, God. Thank you. I had a question to clarify. Are any windows changing in the other parts of the house on this project? No. Now, wait a second. When I say that. And do you have an image you could go to, maybe? I don't think so. I mean, there might be a replacement in the kitchen. Kitchen window, but that's a separate thing because that window is one of those ones that you... You reel it in and out and it doesn't work anymore. Sure, but on this picture right here, like the window is like right next to almost like behind the tree. Or Ben's cursor. Those are permanent. Those are all part of the extant house and not part of what's being changed. Yep. All right. Except there's what I'm saying is not in this period, but there's a little window. Again, this is part of the previous owners. There are some windows that just don't fit into the house at all. And there might be an effort down the line to change them, mainly because they're crappy windows that don't work anymore. You know the kind I mean that you... Yeah. You reel them in and out and they don't go up. Yeah. And they're horrible, but that's not the work we're doing now. Sure. And there's another question. The roof overhang and all that detail, the trim detail and Stacia, that will all be the same. Pardon? The detail along the roof line will be the same, like the overhang. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, that's my assumption. I hope Stephen Shriver... So that may be... Is it Bruce? Uh, Bruce... Bruce Coldham? Yes, I have a whimpering dog, so I muted myself. But yes, I'm basically Nate taking notes for a conditional approval here. I'm just hoping that that... I'd assumed it was the same with the rest, but... Yeah, that was the blue line. I'm sure that's explicit in the drawings, but that's a very... That's an excellent point. Well, the drawings don't get to that level of detail. They're... And so the... I think that if we move, as I expect, we would to approve a certificate for appropriateness, I would propose the conditional... Say something like roof overhang, spacia, and rake edge details, new windows to match, and anything else we want to add to that list, to match those existing in the original portion of the house. All to the better. Okay, thank you. I know that's the intention. Are there any other questions? I don't have any... No. Okay, then can I ask for a motion to... Close the public hearing? Do I stay for this, or do I go away? Yes, you stay. You stay. I actually want to ask you, since we have other items on the public hearing, are we closing it as such? This one. Usually we close it on this justice project. Just done this one. Okay. Yeah. The way the agenda was laid out. So if I could... Any motion to close the public portion of the hearing? On 25-page street application. So moved. Okay, all in favor? Second. I approve. Nate, we don't have to do a... Identify ourselves for this, do we? Who is the second there? They was not one. Yeah, I was asking for a motion. It sounded like I was making it, so I apologize. Nate, for this, we don't have to do a voice vote, do we? Maybe we just go through it quickly. Okay, so let's start with... Because we're on Zoom, so that's why we each need to identify ourselves in the vote. Karen? I approve. Peggy? I approve. Bruce? Yep. Greta? I approve. It seems to have frozen. You okay? Jim? I approve. And Jennifer, I approve. Okay. So, Bruce, you had... Well, if there's no further discussion, I think it would suggest that we make sure that everybody understands what's being proposed here because the drawing sets are... The drawing sets absent a three-dimensional drawing. Right. And we know from previous projects and particularly the Amazon Media Project that we, as a commission, really work better with three-dimensional drawings than we do with elevations and sections and plans and so forth. This is nowhere near as complicated as the Amazon Media, but still there is no three-dimensional drawing involved. We just... I just thought... Make sure that everybody feels they have a clear understanding of what's being proposed because, if not, we could take a moment to make sure that everybody's comfortable with that. I actually have a question, if I could, with this picture up. So, we're talking about just that back part of the house. Yes. Yes. Okay. Yeah, if we go back to the south elevation and the plan set, I think that's... If we do the south and the east, that's probably the most helpful. So, right where you see the addition part, only the back here where it's showing is what's changing. Right. May I say something to what the point Bruce just made that these drawings are pretty retro and the two builders that I have gone to, both just immediately talk about one of the things they'll have to do is 3D renderings. Okay. And then the east elevation band, if you just went to that just so we could... Right. So, then across the back, there's changes. So, that's just so that the commission knows that's where the work is being is on the south and the east. The south and the east. Okay. Yes. Yes. That's great. The south and the east. So, if we're ready, I will do what I usually do. That's a move to approve granting of a certificate of appropriate for the addition to the house at 25 page street in Amherst based on the drawings submitted compiled by architect Steven Shriver with findings that the proposed work meets the review criteria expressed in sections 8.1 and 8.2 of the Amherst local historic district bylaw. And that the proposal is compatible with the overall appearance of the neighborhood and will not have a negative impact on the prospect Lincoln Sunset local historical district with the condition that the roof overhangs fascia and rate edge detail and new windows match those existing in the original portion of the house. Will this be in will that what you've just said be in written form? Yeah. So that I can show it to any builder or anybody? Yep. Yes. Yeah, you'll have that in writing. I want that to be very explicit. Yeah. Well, it will be when I'm finished. I think I've already said that the work is executed according to the documentation. There's no dates. I don't think there's a date on there. Is there a date? I don't know. No, I didn't see any right. I think you said you noted the drawings. Yes, I did. So I'm going to skip that bit. And I think so that I think I am finished. I probably have a date somewhere, but I'd have to go. It's not on the drawing, so it doesn't matter. I mean, it would need to be on the documents to identify them. No, it's not on the drawing. Okay, so we're looking for a second. I think we've identified them by the authorship. Yes. So that's it. Is there a second? Is there a second? I second. Okay, thank you. Karen seconds. So all in favor. Again, we have to do a voice vote. So we'll start with Bruce. I approve. Karen. I approve. Peggy. Approve. Greta. I approve. And Jim. I approve. And Jennifer, I approve. So great. So you again, I know Peggy, you're not starting right away, but because technically once we approve, you don't have to wait to have the certificate physically in hand. But you will be notified when one is available. It will be soon for you to pick up a copy. And we wish you all the best. May I just say, I know you all, and I know a lot of you all from way back, and I know you operated with the utmost of integrity here. But given the day that's in it, as we'd say in Ireland, you lifted a huge weight off me. And I really, I'm very grateful. But I'm glad I wanted this to enhance the neighborhood. It will. Yeah, it's a great neighborhood. And we know that it will. And I guess to sort of off the record, if there's anything any of us who live right around you can do, we're here. I totally agree with this. No, that's the feeling. I think what the historic, just if I can insert this, what the historical district could never convey. I mean, even in this little, this crisis in our little lives, oh, my Lord, the tightness of this neighborhood is extraordinary. You know, it really is. It's not just about architecture. There's a huge communal sense. Don't you think? So there you go. Okay. Over and out. Now do I push, go away or something? What do I do now? End meeting. I'm going to take the rest of the meeting. There's a red button. That's just a leave meeting. Yep. In the bottom. Can I just say that I would not have been part of this meeting if a certain man that I'm looking at right now, Ben, hadn't given me free tutoring for an hour and a half this morning. Yeah, I've become a Zoom instructor. Hey, goodbye. Bye, take care. Bye-bye. Bye. Bye. Thank you. Wow. Okay. It's amazing that open government continues in this. It really is. Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much. All right. Thank you all. Thank you very much. Okay. So our next, so again, Nate and Ben, since we don't really need to have a discussion on the fee since we've already discussed that. But do we ask if there's any members of the public who have any comment on this proposal? Yeah. Yeah. I think you can. And I'm sharing the screen. I think you may be able to see it. I can read it for you. You know what? I was going to adopt the legal fee. Oh, we're going to do it through this. Right. Oh, okay. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Okay. Sorry. I, you know, I'll just read what, you know, just so good people who are, I'm assuming they can see it, but it. Yes. What we're discussing, it says the commission and establishes an application fee paid by an applicant to help defray the costs to the town of administering the application and publishing the hearing notice in the Daily Hampshire Gazette. The fee of $50 shall be collected at time of application and is required for an application to be considered complete and reviewed by the commission. So that's, that's the language. Good. Fine. I will say that one, a previous applicant had emailed staff and thought that the $50 application fee could be a cost barrier to applying to the commission. I have his email up right now. Okay. If you want to read it, and I think I, I think I summarized it, but you could see if I. Yeah, it was a little bit more nuanced. I was just saying while I understand the committee would like to only spend time on applications that will actually be acted upon. If there is going to be a fee, there should be a much more detailed list slash examples of what requires an application or some triage process before the fee is collected in, in current documents that were forwarded to me describing the application. They were quite vague about what actually requires approval. I recognize there's huge variety of applications, but some typical and not obvious, like mini splits, for example, would be useful just my two cents. So you're just saying if essentially, like if there is a legal fee enacted, it seems like, you know, more exclusions, which we are doing, but then also just making the process a bit more straightforward about what needs to be the issue with, you know, if you're applying, you know, to get a new roof for your, you're, you're applying for a building permit, and it's not till that point that you're told that you need to go before the local historic district commission. I think the mini splits is one of those where people have been installing them and just it doesn't even occur to them because you don't need a building. I think do you need a building permit for a mini split? An electrical permit, but the state allows an electrical permit, honestly, to be applied for and then acted on by the contractor. There's a provision that they don't even have, they can do the work without the permit in hand. So they often apply to the town and then go ahead and do the work. Right. They don't even think that they need to come before us. Right. Yes, it's an interesting thing that because my daughter and son-in-law had an electrician who acted exactly as you described me, but there's no provision for when the electrician then goes and dies before the work is finished. Right. Which is what happened and said, now we've got a muddle to sort out. So it's not a, it's not a, it's not a good idea, I don't think, but anyway, that's the way it is apparently. Yeah, I will say on the second floor, you know, we have Jen Mullins, the permanent administrator. So we, what I can see is they email, you know, even the electrical inspector, Tina, she'll send emails to Ben and I. And we have quite a few in the last, you know, week about possible projects where they're doing, you know, someone submits an electrical permit and it's for a project or property in the local sort of district. Yeah. And we look at it. So I agree with you, Jennifer. I think there's too many variables to say, to have a list of what triggers review because we could get it wrong and things change. I actually think that between the bylaw, the rules and regulations, which we send to an applicant and we require a meeting with staff, that usually clarifies, you know, whether or not it's part of the review of a local sort of district. So at that time, they would be told there's a fee or that they have to submit it. So I don't. This is not a critique of the fee. This is a critique of the bylaw. Right. And so it doesn't apply to our current situation. Right. So, yeah, you know, so I think in the email, there's a little, what I'm hearing is they'd like to know before they apply whether there's a fee, but, you know, they, there may be work they want to do that doesn't require even applying and then the fee won't apply. Right. But yeah, I mean, we discussed it, but I, you know, as I mentioned last meeting, two meetings ago, when we were talking about this, we had like a perfect example of someone who three times was on the agenda and never came and the town had incurred the expenses of notifying the abutters and placing the ad. And so this I think, I think we stand strong on this. I don't think we need to worry about it. Right. Okay. So, um, can we vote take a vote on this? Nate and Ben, or do we, do we have to have a motion to close the public portion? Right. I think, you know, looking at the legal ad, this was, this was one, one discussion point and then exclusions were another. So I think, you know, if we, there could be a vote, you know, to, to recommend approval or, you know, the establishment of a fee, I think, you know, it could just happen that way. Okay. So, um, with any, could we have a, someone like to make a motion? Uh, move to accept the, uh, the proposal to, uh, add an application fee to our rules and regulations, uh, in, in, uh, as, as, uh, as proposed. Is there a second? I second. Uh, Greta. Okay. And then we'll take a vote for all in favor and I'll start with Greta. Yes. I approve. Bruce. I approve. Um, Peggy. Approve. Karen. I approve. And Jim. I approve. And Jennifer, I approve. Okay. So we have great added and the fee. Okay. And then we move on to, uh, the rules and regulations. And do you want to take that, Nate or Ben? Looks like there's a hand raised. It's, um, I'll, it's Hilda. Hilda, you can unmute yourself. I just wanted to say that if somebody objects to paying the fee and then it turns out that they don't need to apply or whatever this, you can always refund the money, take the money and refund it if you don't need it. Right. Like we did, did ZBA now and again. Yeah. That's true. That's true. Right. We, right. The town would make refunds. That's a good point. Right. And you wouldn't, you usually don't, you wouldn't until the town, you apply for building permit. And if you don't, the town would even refer you to make the application to the LHDC. Right. I mean, well, sometimes what happens is an applicant may assume they need it. They submit an application and staff enters it and receives the check. Oh, okay. And then, you know, may check after the facts, but the town would issue a refund. Right. So we wouldn't keep a check that. Right. Because the town wouldn't be incurring incurring the expenses. Right. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Thank you, Hilda. Okay. So do you, did you want to do provide the overview, Nate? Sure. So, you know, that as the commission discussed, there's a number of exclusions today. I'm trying to share the screen if everyone can see them. And therefore, certain elements that have been reviewed and we found that it's you know, somewhat perfunctory to look at these and it's, you know, there's such a variety and there is minor to the appearance that they would, could be exclusion. So in order, you know, they're excluding the flu cap. So the installation replacement of a flu cap on an existing chimney or vent stack, electrical box, the installation or replacement of additional meters, solar disconnect box, mini split electrical box or similar electrical utility box. If it is immediately adjacent to existing utility, mechanical and electrical equipment boxes on the structure. So that's, you know, we've discussed that. The exterior condenser compressor, the installation of an exterior compressor or condenser, if all of the following apply, there are two or fewer per structure. The highest point is less than five feet off of the ground. It remains screened from view from with vegetation. And it is not within 10 feet of an entry. Exhaust fan, installation or replacement of a single exhaust vent for a dryer, bathroom or kitchen attached to a, to no greater than a six inch diameter duct. A plumbing vent through the roof, installation or replacement of a plumbing vent through roof. And the final exclusion would be a vent hood, installation or replacement of standard direct vent hood for an interior unit such as combustion heater or boiler. Can I ask a question under the 3.2.1, the condenser or compressor, where it says the third bullet, if it remains screened from view with vegetation, could it be a vegetation or fencing? Well, we thought when we discussed this last time, we thought that they, the fencing, that we wouldn't have control over the fencing. Right, so they would have to come to us with the fencing design. That's right, because they could decide that an appropriate fence was a concrete masonry that they just happened to have in the backyard. So we were clear that that fencing was not that they would have to come to us. Okay. Yeah, I have the commission when that under the same exclusion, when it says the highest point is less than five feet off the ground, that it's understood that that's the highest point of the condenser compressor. So that's why I think it's intended. I just want to make sure that everyone understands it that way. Yes, I think so, because the intro is an exterior compressor or condenser. You might want to put compressor condenser unit after that. And then the installation of an exterior compressor or condenser, I think delete the or because now you've changed it to two separate, potentially separate things, which so. Something like that. Yes, I think something like that is what I mean, because they're an integral thing, basically an air conditioning device. I just have a quick question about the same one. So what about like the all of the hosing involved with mini splits? Like, is that a separate from the condenser compressor? And would like if so, just thinking if someone like needs to install a mini split, we're excluding the condenser and compressor, but not the hosing. And I know that often like runs up and down the house. Well, yes, that's true. We didn't talk about that. Did we maybe, but it can be with the kind of, now what do we say, there are two or fewer for structure. Yep, it could be that the covered line sets would run quite a distance. One of the features of this technology, which was not the case in the 1980s, but definitely is the case now, is that you can run these lines to 150 feet or more. They used to be very constrained and the efficiency of the unit would tank if you ran the line longer than 30 feet. But these latest technologies that we've had the past 10 or 15 years, you can run them quite a long distance. So we should recognize that there could be quite a length. And maybe we could consider adding a fifth bullet there, which said that the aggregate length of encapsulated line sets is not greater than 30 feet, 40 feet, 50 feet. Would we have something to say that the line set is follows, features of the house, so it follows gutters or corners. For instance, in my neighborhood someone put a condenser right out front and then they ran the line set next to a window on two sides of it and went then right over the window around the corner and then tucked it in upstairs. They painted it the same color as the siding, but you see that there's this line set that they ran vertically, as opposed to say keeping it low and then running just one vertical piece. So that's a good point, Ben. I was assuming that we'd have a thoughtful installation, but maybe we can't assume that, that someone could put it, if they meet these conditions, then is the piping excluded? I think that would be a good idea, Ben, except that the building inspector would probably not want to be put in a position of making an aesthetic judgment, my guess is. So I think it would be safer to do what we've done with all of the other conditions, which are basically numerical. There's two or fewer, there's five feet off the ground, there's 10 feet from the entry. I would say that the aggregate length of exposed line set is not greater than 20 feet. And then we would have to review anything with more piping. Yeah, in other words, it becomes more complicated if there's more. And the intent of this is to get people going quickly. And so that will encourage them to be very efficient in the way in which they place these things and have less than 20 feet of line set. I don't know that 20 feet's the right number, but since we have two of them, it might be. We could say 20 feet, maximum length of piping could be 20 feet or less per condenser, per unit or something. Because you could have two units that are not running the same separate side. So you could specify the 20 feet per unit. I think this particular condition is one that will be hard for us to know that we've gotten right. But I think Ben's point is excellent and we really did, I think, overlook that particular. So I think we should put in a number and then see how it flies for the first year and be prepared to review and revise based on a year of experience or something like that. Yeah, I just realized when I was going over the exclusions this morning, but I wish I had brought it to everyone's attention like last month. I think this is time. Nate, why don't you say encapsulated line sets? Yeah, okay. I was trying to think, I was trying to clarify that the piping shall be encapsulated, you know, not to miss it, right? But you think encapsulated line set would be? Yes, because it always is encapsulated. They just don't, they just don't put it, they don't install them without this vinyl encapsulation. It's partly because it, so encapsulated line sets, so that basically shall be no longer than 20 feet in aggregate or the aggregate of encapsulated line sets shall be no longer than 20 feet. Okay, Peggy, did you want to add something? Yeah, Peggy. Yes. Well, I just, yes, thank you. It's such a specialized conversation that not all of us understand even all of the implications of, I'm wondering if it's a conversation that might be more efficiently held between the experts on this and then brought back to us when there's some consensus among them. Do you see what I'm saying in terms of tonight's meeting? I think, I don't think so. I think that this is a straightforward thing and the only, the only thing is in under discussion is the length of the amount of exposed piping, if you want to put it that way. I'm calling them line sets because that's the technical term. The amount of exposed line set and we just have to make a guess that what we think is reasonable. I would say, I would, I would delete that per unit, but because, but we could keep their big houses. So I suppose that's, we should keep it that way. And then we just should see what happens. And yeah, I want to say per unit, Bruce, because I mean, if we say 20 feet, that's only 10 feet per, what if they're putting two units in different locations on the structure? Right. Yeah, right. And 20 feet will get somebody from the first floor to the third floor. Yeah. I mean, I, yeah, Peggy, I think, you know, we could, the commission can always amend the rules and regulations. So if we find, you know, next year at some point that, you know, the average line set is 40 feet and, you know, we could change this. But I think I agree with Bruce that the 20 feet is going to, you know, it's going to kind of require that the installer think better about how to run the line set. So, you know, you can't just be sloppy about it. You're going to have to be pretty direct and try to make it minimal. And that's, that's the point. It's hard to actually get that in writing. Okay. You know, because you can run it inside, right? So the one that we saw on Lincoln Oh, that's a good point. I did say that the exposed, exposed encapsulated because you're right, you can run it inside. Right. I say just exterior. I think it's understood, right? Because we're the historic district. We don't have jurisdiction over anything that's exposed inside. It's only if it's exposed, right? In a, in a, in a, oh, you haven't got exposed in there yet. Oh, let me say, I said exterior, but I'll say exposed. Exposed and encapsulated. And how do you, kind of like an oxymoron a little bit. Exposed and encapsulated line. Yeah. On exterior. I'll just say on exterior. Yes. Yes. So your structure. Shall be no longer. Shall be no longer. There we are. Sure. Okay. So encapsulated line said on exterior structure shall be no longer than 20 feet in aggregate per unit. And I would like no longer than 20 feet. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I think that gets as, as, as, as, as well as we can do in, in, and I don't think any further conversation is going to improve this. I'm, I think we, we should move. So I think we can move to a vote. There's no other questions or comments. There is a, Hilda has another hand raised. Hilda, you can, I unmuted you. Thinking of my old house here, the one thing you don't mention that I got here is a 25 gallon propane tank. And do you want to include things like that or exclude them or what? Well, yeah. So that's not, the commission hasn't, um, discussed those. So those, we couldn't just take those up. We could take them under recommendation today, but we couldn't add them to the changes now. We need to present the changes to the commission at a public meeting before approving them. So. So what, what it would mean is if people want the propane tank, then they, um, would have to apply. Right. One in the front where it can be seen from the street. Yeah. Right. Right. But what you're saying, Nate, is we can't just add it to the list because we haven't put it out there for public notice. Right. So if we, if we think we want to have that be another exclusion, we take it under advisement today, and then we could talk about it at a future meeting. Right. Well, well, I don't know if you're regulating all these other things, you may want to regulate that. That's all I'm saying. Either to put it on or off. Yeah. Is that, is that, uh, is it, uh, I'm not sure how that would be triggered though, because, uh, can, is it, is it not possible for someone to put in a propane tank without, um, getting a building permit? I mean, for example, let's say they've got a propane tank and they get, and they change from Osterman to George and Mr. George comes along and, and he puts his propane tank in a slightly different location. Um, because it's it's convenient for him. Um, is there any, is there any, is there any, what are we going to say? There really is no, there really is no trigger for the local Sark district. Right. So that's, that's, I'm thinking if it's not, there's not a lot of point in putting in something here. If, if it's, uh, if it happens outside our, our jurisdiction. Well, not even jurisdiction. We might be able to assert that, but, but it's the mechanism that we have for picking all of this up and for being alerted and all of this stuff is through the building commissioner. Right. And my sense is that, that this would be, we would have to figure out some other way of being, uh, aware of, uh, initiatives to, to put in building a propane tank. Right. I think if this, you know, if it was part of a larger project, the commission could review it or a gas like they probably need a gas permit. Mine had to be moved when, when I changed purveyors because it was too close to the, the, um, either the air conditioner or the oil tank. I'm not sure, but they had to move it. So it, it shows. I think, yeah, I don't, I don't know if we can, I think we could, you know, think about it for another meeting for a discussion. Thank you. We will. Thanks Hilda. Okay. Thank you. Okay. So if, um, there's no further questions or items for discussion, I guess we can move to adopt these exclusions that have been, um, already had public notification provided for. Is there, um, a motion? I would say so moved. Oh, uh, do we, we don't have to close the public hearing first, do we? It already has been. Oh, we did already. Okay. Yeah. Well, so moved, uh, uh, according to the text submitted. Yeah. Uh, second. I second. Okay. Karen seconds. And then we'll do a voiced vote for all in favor, starting with Bruce. Approve. Um, Karen. Approve. Thank you. Peggy. Approve. Uh, Guida. Approve. And Jim. I approve. And I'm Jennifer and I approve. Okay. Thank you. So with that, we'll, uh, the, the hearing portion of the meeting is concluded and then we will move to the public meeting and we'll, um, Amherst media present. There's a number of attendees. I'll promote them all to, um, the panelists. So there's their engineer. Uh, there's the architect. There's Jim. Let's go the exact director and, um, sorry, my screen is getting cluttered here. Sorry. And then, uh, Ed, um, who's on the board. Oh, Ed, who? He's on the board. Oh, okay. Yep. And so I was trying to share my screen. Um, maybe stop. Okay. Hi, Bucky. See you. Jennifer. How are you? Thank you. Hi. Hi, John. Right. I can, um, I can make, uh, as panelists, John or Bucky, you can take over the screen share if you'd like, or if you want me to do it. Um, and you can direct me. It's however you feel comfortable. Well, I've got a number of things on my desktop. I can go to that and open them up, I guess, one at a time and use my cursor to illustrate what I'm talking about. I think the, uh, I don't know if the, uh, the board got copies of Bucky and my letter that we sent you. We did. We did. So they both enumerate what we feel are the changes that the planning board saw when it went for site review from the plans that you saw when you did your, uh, appropriateness certificate. Um, and in my particular listing, there are 17 items, but I particularly listed, uh, sticks that you might be particularly concerned about. A number of the others have already been shown on the drawing on our architectural elevation drawing that Bucky submitted for site plan review. You know, um, it's, it's a small scale, but one of the things you, you wanted joints relocated, you wanted louvers relocated, you wanted the ends of certain gables, uh, both ends, the, the, uh, sloped end and the other end changed. Um, I, I, at the small scale, it shows it on, on Bucky's submittal drawing, which included our architectural drawing on the large scale, which was a drawing we submitted that had particular building sections. We show a couple of the changes now and x'd out what were the old overhangs. So we could take a look at that too. Um, and maybe the first place to start is, uh, going down this list and I could open up whichever drawing you want me to, either the one that was presented for the site plan review or the one that was presented earlier for you. Um, I, I, Bucky, I think Bucky's got some, some items as well, some overlap with the architectural items. Yeah, I think the, um, just for the commission's background, you know, the, you know, the, um, certificate of appropriateness had a few conditions and one was to come back out of public meeting to review changes. And so now Amherst media, um, they've gone through site plan review permitting with the planning board and they have more refined drawings, both, uh, civil drawings for the, um, the site and then architectural drawings. And so there's been a number of changes and it's the commission's, um, role right now to determine if these changes are, um, you know, in accordance with the drawings and are de minimis really. So they're minimal or if some are, you know, say substantial enough that they may need to have a new application to the commission. And so, you know, I think that's, uh, what, uh, John and Bucky are here to present just to go over everything. Um, John, just so you know, the, uh, I did email everything to the commission. I mean, there was a lot, but hopefully we can do it today and we could go through everything. And yeah, feel free to, you can take over the screen share or I could do it too. Cause we could walk through each one of these, um, and help, you know, make sure the commission can understand them all. The one thing I want to make sure is that I have Bucky's daughter is calling from Peru. Never fails. I have to try. I'm going to put it on the airplane mode. Okay. Um, let me try and open a Bucky. If I can't do it, um, can you open the drawing that was included in the site plan review of our architecture? I think I have it on my desktop here. I know how the one presented today. Sure. I have it on. Um, oh, where is it actually? This, uh, huh, I had it pulled up too. Now I can't, I don't seem to. This is it, isn't it? That's it. Yeah, those are my plans. Yes. Where do you want to go, John? All the way down to, uh, all the way to the end is my architectural drawing. Okay. Sorry. Sorry. Everyone for all the page scrolling. And this is, uh, okay, let me zoom in a little bit. I can move it and curse around if people need any, um, direction. But that, uh, this is Bruce, the, the, the letter that John started with, the first item on that was a, uh, was a site, uh, related to stone curving. And, uh, oh, maybe we can point it out here. Yeah. It's on the, uh, the west side against the building. Right now, there's a dashed line that goes down. Yeah. And there had been a sidewalk that went down at one point all the way to the front. That's been eliminated. Okay. And what there is, is that there's a low planning bed against the side of the building there. And there is a granite, uh, edge. Is that what the, that, uh, line, that, that item number one refers to is that that pathway has become a granite, uh, edge, right, uh, flower bed edge. And if we look, is it, if we looked on that, would it, on the elevation, would we, it's not, it's not quite visible here, but it's, so, I mean, it's quite low. It's, it's, it's, uh, it's sort of a movie, my cursor. If you go to the north elevation, if you go to the north elevation and move it over to the left of the screen more. Yeah. It's going to be probably no higher than a foot, I believe, you know, as a curb edge. And in the, uh, if you raise that up, Nate, a little bit, so we see the west elevation. Yeah. It's going to fall below it. There's a line there. It's going to be full, fall below or right up to the edge of the bottom of these, uh, divided light windows here, which are in the conference room. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I understand that and, uh, have no problem. And, okay. Um, item two, which is probably more significant because when we first presented, there wasn't much discussion, if any at all, about the, the sign. And now in the interim, we had shown just a simple placard that were on, that was on two posts, you know, three by three or four by four posts. And it was the same dimension. It was three by five, I believe, or four feet by five feet. And actually four by six was what it was. And we've changed it in the interim to, to mimic the Gaussian stone wall. That's, um, and this would be, if you go back to our site plan, you're on the right, right here, right there. Oh, I see near the wall. Yes. Near the wall. And the signage is on the south side only. And if you go back to the, up to the sign, Nate, can we see that? Everyone's going to see that? Yeah, I can. There is a, um, a luminaire that's shielded. That in section here it is, uh, is this? Fuck you, my cursor. Uh, Bucky, put your hand right, yeah, put the hand right up where the lamp is. It's Nate that's driving. It's right, it's right here, right? Right. And that, and that will eliminate the signage. Um, there's a recess in the, in the sign itself. It's recessed, but before, yeah, you know, uh, you can see in, you can see in sex. This is the backside facing north. This is a crooked version of what should have been a square, a second through the sign. Uh, and, uh, you know, essentially what we like this to be a, a light slate here, uh, to contrast with the Gaussian stone a little bit. And these would be pin letters that, um, you know, designate Amherst media. And then the middle panel is their logo, which is a series of, uh, I guess sound, an indication of a sound, uh, generation by a electronic device. And wait, where is this going exactly? So if we, it was, there was a monument sign in the original plant on the north right here north of the driveway. Oh, so it's going to be north of the driveway. Okay. Yeah. And the difference is when it came before, it was like maybe a wooden post on, on a wooden sign on post. And now it's going to be a, uh, you know, a masonry monument sign. Okay. Thank you. I don't personally have any problem with that. Yep. It's hard to say how big it is. I, I can't read the, um, side. It says it's six feet wide by, um, by five feet. Thank you. And the lettering, how big? The lettering is the scale here. So in reality, um, these are probably four inch letters, uh, this center, you know, and then, and then it gets smaller with the street address. Okay. Just to be clear, the letters aren't what six feet by five feet. No, no, no. The sign is six feet this way. Five feet high. Okay. Thank you. Can, can I ask a question? Of course, Karen. I'm still not sure where it is. So if you're on the south side or on the street, main street side, is it right in the front? No, can you see, can you see the site plan now, Karen? Yeah. So up here is main street right here. Yeah. The cursor is the sign is back up here. It's at the driveway. At the driveway. Okay. Okay. Great. Nate, can I see if, just for a second to see if I have this on my desktop, because it might be easier if I move the cursor around. Sure. Yeah, you can share. Yeah, that's fine. How would I do that? If you just, um, I think you, I don't know if you can, if you have a share somewhere, if you hover your cursor bend, you know where it would be? For him, for John. I see you are viewing the Nathaniel Malloy screen. Do I? Yep. Yeah, it should be on the bottom bar. There's a green arrow. Yeah, where it says share screen, John. You, you, you, you take over the sharing. You can take over. I can sit back. Okay. I'll have some coffee and a donut. Okay. Cider donut season. I have only till six a week. We should conclude by then. We'll conclude by six. If I click leave, am I going to be totally off the zoom? Yeah. In the middle of the bottom, a green thing that says share screen. Yeah, I clicked on that. Okay. Now what I want to do is get to my desktop. It should, if you had, if you had the document already open, it would just, you could share it from there. So John, I'm just going to walk through, says, nope. Okay. Just taking your time. Okay, what are you doing? Are there any more questions on the sign, or is everyone okay with the monument sign? I'm okay. I'm going to get the sign. All right. And then, um, so, you know, the pin letters that are on the sign are probably going to be pretty similar, as what's on the building, right, John? Yeah. Yeah. And so, we could talk. Smaller. Okay, I'll be smaller. Yeah, they're really, it's here on the north elevation. This is facing the parking lot where my cursor is. It's right over the entry door. And this is something that they, we had talked about this as part of the original hearing. And then it is, again, right here in the banding on the south elevation. So it's a move further over. That's what you see from Main Street. Yep. And over the door. Okay. And if you drop down, Nate, that drawing, there's a detail. Manufacturers cut, I think, of the, of the letters itself up here. Okay. And this is the back view because they have several different methods of attaching these. They could go flush. You could have a furrow sort of spacer there for a material that's uneven. And pretty much it's going to be flush if we could do it or at most it will be a quarter of an inch away from the, from the fascia board. And there'll be metal letters. Okay. Excuse me. It sounds attractive. Yes. Okay, John. Next item, I think. Now, the building you've overhangs. I increased it. I just, if I could share my drawing, you would see what it's increased to. We could, you know, it's hard to see at this scale. I think the easy thing to say is that, you know, the commission recommended a, was like 15 to 18 inch overhang. Right, John. And you've met that. Yeah, we have, we have 16 on, on one end, on the, not this end, we, there's about 12 to 14 inches on this end. I think it shows us 12 inches. It used to be eight. And if you go to another elevation, Nate, if you slide the screen over on this cable end, it's a good 16 inches. Okay. And that's the flat part. That's the fascia part. Yeah. I think we can see that you've, that that's been attended to. All right. Okay. And let me see the additional divided light windows. So if we look at the south elevation, and again, this is on my revised big number five drawing, Nate, if I could, I don't want to lose the zoom. Let me just, let me just try it again. If I open the drawing on your screen and then share, see what happens. I just don't know how to get to my desktop. I just, that's where I put them because not too long ago, I was able to click on my desktop, you know, and it would go right to the screen sharing. Like, do you have the documents open right now on your, on my desktop? Yeah. Well, they're not open. They're, they're shortcuts. Oh, I think the problem John's having is that he can't see his desktop. He's, he's locked into this zoom thing. Well, I can't wait a minute. Let me, let me, I'm going to click on one. There we go. You see that? Or do I, only I see it? Only you see it. Yeah. Nate, maybe if you stop your share, it might be easier. Yeah, I was just about to do that. And I can, how do I do that? I can't, yeah. I think you've stopped it because I'm looking at you. You don't need to be looking at me. John. I lost that band on top that allowed me to. Okay. Now it's on bottom. It says in green share screen under all of our faces. Got a exit minimized. I got building. No, I don't have a, oh, let's see here. Yeah, I don't think, I don't know if I have your plans that John, could we go back to just what I was showing? I think the commit, would that be helpful or? Yeah, sure. Oh, wait a minute. What is this? Who can share all panelists? So it looks like, yeah, I'm not sure why, but this is the south elevation. You're talking about the windows? Yeah. There's a plan view, you know, this plan view, that's on, oh, you don't have it. I'm moving my cursor around. Yeah. If you go to the south elevation, and before, when we appeared before you, I think we only had three divided lights here. And there's some question that you guys had about the symmetry versus the asymmetry. And it was kind of undecided, but you accepted what we had shown, which was this, which was the two either side of the door, and a third one going to the east. And then there was a solid panel further to the east that went against the projected wing that came out. Right. And what we've done is that we've made it divided lights all the way across. We've taken that part of building clabbered there, the last one furthest east that was against the building, and turned that into divided lights, which also goes into their, you know, entry lobby, main functional space, exhibit space, multi-purpose space. And what we've done is we've added a fifth one on this side to kind of give some symmetry around the two columns, rather the columns short with the divided lights. And this actually goes into Jim Liscoe's office. And he could turn it off. But on our interior, once you're inside, we'd like to return these divided lights 90 degrees. There's some background noise. I think we need to mute. Can you go to the plan, Nate, on the same drawing? So here are the five now, what used to be three. Here are the five. And this one, this last one, sits inside the director's office. And we plan to have possibly that return into the lobby area. So it kind of reflects these four panels that are cast into the lobby. And also another panel where Jim, the director, can see into the lobby or choose not to. So, you know, we thought that was a better solution to the to the front there. You guys might not, you know, we could go back to the what we had shown. But in reality, this seems to be a little more expansive of what the entry should be. So just quickly, let's see, where were those? So here's what was shown previously on the approved. If you can see that on the approved, what was shown earlier. So I just keep doing it. Here we are. So it's here. You know, originally it was just a three. And now it's, where am I? Now it's the five right here. I think it's much nicer. I do too. Aesthetically much nicer. Yeah, it's just lighter. You see less of the wood, you know, just the solid facade. Right. Also, it doesn't leave that west column, the portico west column hanging out there. Right. You know, it's got glass on either side of it, even though the portico is projected forward. Right. Right. It's much more graceful. I agree. It is. Can I just ask a question? Did this come about because of the planning board had this suggestion or? No, it came back because we had more time. Oh, okay. Yeah, no, I agree with we weren't completely satisfied. Yeah, I think, you know, as we go through these, just, you know, think about when we get to the end, you know, will the commit, you know, are these changes in keeping with the conditions and the certificate. And then, you know, if so, then, you know, there doesn't need to be a new application. So I just want to make sure we're looking at it from that perspective. Yeah. Okay. Continue. I'm sorry. If you go to the plan, Nate, go back to the plan, the most recent one. Yeah, let me just zoom out a tad. Back where the compressors are in the northwest corner there. There was a picket fence, which is still there, but the picket fence actually continued all the way across to where the break in the wall returns for the rear entrance to the building there. And that wasn't enough room for the bicycles. It was just, it was just wasn't working. So if you look at the north elevation, you could see how it reflects in the elevation where the pickets, the pickets are under those two windows. And that's where the compressors are. And this is the bicycle rack here. So the bicycles we parked here. Before we had those pickets continuing in the third bay there. And it just made it very awkward to get at the bicycles. And it didn't seem like it was necessary. Okay. Now, the next thing is the lighting. And Bucky, you've included a photometric light plan. And we took all the suggestions for making sure there was a fully accommodating north parking lot for travel, but also nothing really glaring and nothing outrageous. Originally, we had some soffit lights under the soffits that were down lights. And they had to become larger than we had thought to illuminate the light we needed in the parking area. And there was concern about the cars that were parked closest to the wall on the north side and those people crossing to getting into the entrance. And now we've got an even distribution. And in doing that, we had to do two things. We had to add two Polites, one here by where the sign is. Okay, one on the west side. Can you see here by the monument sign? And then there's one on the west side, they're 10 feet high. And on the sheet is the type of shielded fixture that sits on top of it, more like a lantern, contemporary lantern, more than the old fashioned carriage lanterns. And then there's a bollard. What there are, there are two parking spaces here. And to get enough light at this part of the site, there's a low three foot bollard here, which in on the left, you can see bollard, and it's just kind of an overhanging short cap that's not centered, but just overhangs eight or 10 inches of the bollard. And it faces in towards the property. And one last light we needed was on the building here, right at this point, made over to you right there. Yeah, right there. We had to put a shielded light that gives us light here throughout. And if you drop down on the sheet, you know, I'm saying, I'm taking notes. Right there. You know, I think it's about 12 inches by 14 inches, you know, and it's slimline and it directs most of the light down and out, not in anyone's face. It's screened. And it was chosen by actually the same vendor that works with you guys and also advised us on the pole lights and that one bollard light. Yeah, so there's, yeah, so to summarize, there's, you know, two pole lights, the bollard, and then the exterior light. And with the exception, we eliminated the downed soffit lights that continued around that soffit overhang of the whole building. And we just have them over the north entry, the south entry. And I believe that's it. Buck, are you there? Yes, Sam. You know, those are the only two that are different. They'll go in soffits above the entries. That's one light over each entry and exit. And do those remain on like when the office is closed? I believe we have stipulated with the planning board that the lights over the doors would be 24-7, which, so there's always a glow against the building, but it is really just against the building that the lights that eliminate the parking lot will shut off at 9.30 p.m. Okay. Okay, thank you. And Bruce, do you, does this, this is where I defer to Bruce's, our resident architect, does this? It seems fine. I mean, I can't read all those little tiles that you see across the parking area there have got lumen counts on them. So it tells you the intensity of the lighting and all. This is way more than we had. So, yes, that seems fine. But basically, I think the issue for us is, and maybe, Nate, I have to ask your guidance here, the fixtures appear to me to be fine. They look like they're thoughtful, decent, technically sophisticated solution, lighting solution concepts, and so forth. But they weren't there to begin with. But I think we knew that there would be something like this that would be necessary because solving lighting design solutions cannot happen in schematic design. They really are things that have to be, you know, they're advanced design decision making. So I would like to think that this would be de minimis from the point of view that we knew that something like this would happen, even if we didn't knew exactly what it was and where it was going to go. So I want to judge this to be not just a satisfactory design, but also a de minimis change. Am I, would we be stretching it from a, I don't know, from a quasi legal point of view if we were to make that finding? No, I think that's the commission's decision. So Bruce, you already have kind of qualified it that, you know, there, in my thought is there was lighting, there were site, you know, other structures already on the plan that were approved. So, you know, they had the, they had socket lighting, they had a monument sign, they had a fence. So to me, you know, if the commission believes that adding these three other, you know, kind of modest posts in a bollard are de minimis, then I think there's enough happening with the project that it is. I mean, if, for instance, you know, they put in six light posts, you know, the commission might say, okay, that seems like a little much, you know, so I think it's both the quantity and, you know, the size and everything. So, you know, I think, you know, if the commission agrees with Bruce, then I think it's fine to say it's de minimis, it's minimal change. Yeah, that's, yeah. Okay. Well, I'll say what I'm saying. I think it's a good solution. Okay. Thank you. That covers number eight as well, because we did it as much for the parking as well as for the pedestrians. Number nine, we had to take the steps which were turned, which had been rotated originally 90 degrees exiting to the north. And this is just an emergency egress. It won't be an entrance to the building. Because of the two parking spaces that are there, because of the proximity that we needed to get away from the building and not have much left for the stair, the best solution for us was to turn it 90 degrees to have an exit straight out going to the east. The other option was to turning it another 90 degrees and having it exit to the south, but we didn't think we thought that was more ungainly than what we showed. Here's what was proposed. It turned into the parking space and here is what the changes are. Functionally, I think this is better because instead of turning it into one parking space, you deposited more or less between the two. And I think that from an aesthetic point of view, this change pretty much all happens below two feet or two, they're about two feet down. So it's therefore, I would say, probably inconspicuous or not relatively inconspicuous. And depending on what landscaping is done, you wouldn't see it from the street. I mean, the change you wouldn't see from the street. You'll see the entrance or the exit and so forth. So I think I understand why you're doing it. And from my point of view, I think it's a functional improvement and a change which is de minimis because it is, it happens so low in the profile of the building. Great. Thank you. Number 10 is what we've already discussed about the lamppost and the cutoff shielded low baller light. Number 11, we've put on the elevations on this particular drawing. We've re-spaced the decorative vertical joints. We've re-spaced the louvers. We've had because of some interior partitions, it caused us to move some of the windows a little bit left or right. But the general feeling is the same. I think it gives you what you wanted with the louver spacing before it might have been a little more random. We've added a decorative flat-faced pillar to frame those louvers on each side, which we have throughout the rest of the building. And we centered that one light that we needed on the pillars. And we also located the little vent holes that we needed. So it's more regular than it was. Here's what it was before, similar banding, the lasters, the vents and everything. But I think there was a discussion about having the louvers match some of that articulation and that's what is happening here. Yes, that's exactly. I remember because I was concerned to change what you showed first time to what you now show. This is exactly what I personally was trying to cause to happen. Item number 12 is the attic storage area plan. On the original presentation, it seemed to fill the whole attic. We're limited to a travel distance of no more than 75 feet. Down to the bottom riser on the ground floor from the farthest point up in the attic. So, Nate, if you could move that drawing down. I think there's an attic plan on this. Well, hold on. Is this even in our bailiwick? No, but it was a change from what you had seen. It's outside. It's inside the building, so it doesn't relate to us. But John, it doesn't change the roof line. No, not at all. Okay, so that's, yeah. All right. 13 are the decorative vertical joints at the south elevation upper facing that have been respaded space similar to what we did at the north here. Yeah, there. 14, we've included a planning plan, which, Bucky, do you have that or? I do. Would you like me to try and share that? I can share that. Again, is the planting something that is in our... The only, the one is there was a condition that there would be a permanent vegetative screen. So, it's essentially like a fence between, you know, on the parking edge. So, I'm lost where I am here. Here we go. I don't know if this is still the same, Bucky. Yeah, that's the current, that's a current landscape plan. Yeah. Okay. Typically, landscaping is exempt unless, you know, for instance, we've made it, the commission has done it in a few instances where, you know, it requires a permanent screen. So, if that's still the case, I think that is fine. And I'm not sure if there's anything else that's being used as a screen or anything. It's just regular landscaping, right? Yeah. Yeah, that's true. We do have on the east side, there are two parking lots. And one thing that the, in addition to the landscaping around the building, they wanted a vegetative bed, a more diminutive one, yeah, right there that you're showing, Nate. So, that's a pollinator planting bed that will help hide those two cars that are also designated as guest parking. Okay. And are those kind of evergreen, so they'll be, no, actually, they're very specifically designed off of UMass's pollinator friendly planting suggestion that the town has adopted, at least in some cases. So, that is, it does grow up and, but during the winter, it is, it is relatively minimal. Okay. There isn't a lot of space there. And evergreens do take up a decent hunk of space. But on the west side, those will be evergreens. Oh, yes. Those are, they're not boxwoods, but they look a lot like boxwoods. Okay. I'm not the landscaper, but it's just on my title block. Okay. Why they stopped there? And it's not alone the side of the building also. I'm sorry about the question. Well, I'm curious, curious to know why they're stopped, where they've stopped and on the, what would that be, the west side and not continue to allow the building. The evergreens are strategically placed to obfuscate the parking lot and the cars from anybody on the west side. So, if you're up at the triangle street intersection, you were looking at this site, you wouldn't see the parking lot because of those evergreens are also elevated higher. This doesn't have the grading plan shown, but there, the parking lot is a few feet lower. As you go down along the west side of the building, as John mentioned earlier, there's a curve that is going to go along the side of the building and there's a narrow planting strip there that's also going to help provide a little softness to the western facade of the building. I mean, the vegetation, so typically vegetation is exempt. I think in this instance, it was a condition because it's considered a permanent screen, screening for parking. So if, you know, if, to me, if later Amherst Media wants to do more plantings, that's something they do on their own. It's not really something that the commission conditions. So, we had really promised the women's club also. We were concerned just about the view from Grace from Triangle Street, but also for the women's club that when they had events, you wouldn't be looking into the parking lot. Yeah. You've got multiple barriers on that. The parking lot is about five feet lower than the property line. So right there, it's, it's, well, the cars are not five feet tall. Yeah, maybe a cargo van would be, but most vehicles are lower than just the grade change right there. So the parking lot's already hidden, but adding those evergreens will help on the western side for sure. Yeah. And also if you remember, we had a number of views and two of the views were from the Hills House and the women's club looking down towards this north west corner of the building. And what we have there is the roof. If you go up to the, if you go back to the north elevation, Bucky. That's all right. Yeah. If you see at the west end of the building there, where the compressors are, there's that roof pitch continues down as a canopy that goes over and shelters those compressors and the bicycles. And I don't know if you remember, but the view that we had looking down from both the women's club and Hills House with that canopy and with the, the grade change and with the boxwoods, you know, you could barely see through to any of the automobiles that are there. And if you could there, as Bucky says, they're quite low. Yeah. I think that's good. I mean, the, so we're talking about screening for the parking lot. That's what our previous conversation was focused on. Not, not the building. And if we're doing our collectively our job properly, we want to be able to see the building because we have, we want to like what we see. But the parking you agreed would be shaded. And I think having low boxwood like things has worked because often if the cheese get a little taller, what happens is that the, the vegetation between ground level and two feet or so thins out. And then that would be exactly the wrong place for the vegetation to be screened out in this instance because the, the, the, the real hard work of the screening, shall we say, of those boxwoods is really in the first two or three feet or two to four feet from the ground level. So we do want vegetation that's, that stays dense all the way to ground level, I would think. And it, it sounds like if these are like box bushes, then that would be achieved. Yeah. And the planning plan, I think it was, it was called out. Sorry. I couldn't read it, but like you said, it was like box. It's barenwort. Is that sound right, Bucky? It's epidinium. It's funny that does not, no, it's planting bed E, not, not that's ID. So planting beds on the right side of those. Oh, go ahead. That makes sense to me. Where are we? Planting bed. Yikes. Oh, there we go. Planting bed E. Yes. Steve's Japanese Holly. Oh, okay. Yeah. But they, when you look at them to my, and I'm not a plant expert, but they really look a lot like boxwoods. They're just a slightly different species. So they will fulfill that functional requirement that I was suggesting was the most important. Yeah, they say, it says it on it on, you know, they have a, they're four to six feet, four to six foot spread and four to eight feet tall. So that's, you know, pretty much like a square bush. Yeah. When Bill Gillon was enamored of the planting, when you approach the, the side rear from the parking lot of bolt, the inner bolt and when you go in that way, when you get out of your car, you're in the parking lot, there is a number of plants, uh, against the building, but then there are a number of plants that kind of surround a, a area that they might use a podium area that they might use as a presentation area of some sort or a gathering spot. And those are the plants that, you know, we had hoped to use here. And I don't know the Latin, I assume they are, but yeah. So Peggy, you asked them, Peggy, you were asking a while ago, would they continue the screening down further? Is that, but? Yes, I think it, to me, it looks like it would look kind of abruptly cut off. And then you're looking at the side of a building, rather than a continuation of whatever lovely trees or bushes have been, have been planted. So it seems to me that it would be, it would be more graceful and more in line with the design to have that continue down to the side, to the front edge of the building along the whole side of the building. There is infrastructure buried. I will say that the utility site plan on the, there, there, there are you, there are structures there. So installing shrubbery, woody, woody shrubbery over that is not really going to be possible because it would interfere with the stormwater system, which turns that the western slope and it keeps it a nice gentle slope. But that's only possible by having multiple tanks and pumps buried in that location. Also, this is a good illustration of the grade change heading towards the north from that northwest corner again, which is reasonably steep compared to further down going to the south, which, you know, expansively opens up the lawn area, which the neighbors wanted to keep. You know, they wanted to see that lawn as much as they could, looking down from Hills House and from the women's club. Yeah, I'm also afraid that, I mean, we can't impose a new condition now. Right. Right. So it's approaching six. I know we're going to lose people, so we should see if we can wrap this up. Well, the last thing is we've, you're not concerned with the interior rooms, but we did show now a curved sidewalk in low of the perpendicular sidewalk that came directly out. And we also indicated gutters and downspouts on the old. Yeah, both of those, I think, John, were requests of ours. And I think he's done what we asked for. So if, you know, that covers it, you know, the wall in the back, just so everyone in the way, you know, at one point the retaining wall along the north was maybe was going to have a concrete, you know, structure and then have, whether it be a face of dry laid, but now it's going to be, you know, an all dry laid stone wall, you know, the visual appearance hasn't changed necessarily, but the construction of it has. I just, you know, for the commission's benefit. Right. So it will be, because I would think stone is preferable to cement. Right. So I think this is a better scheme all around. So I just wanted to ask, so in terms of like this, the stone wall and those additional windows on the front, that is the way it's going to be. This is, right, that won't change. No, it won't. Okay. I mean, we're just looking for your blessing right now. These were the major changes we want to run past you. Yeah. I mean, I would, if the commission, if the commission feels they're de minimis, we could have a motion and a vote and then, you know, and then they're, they Amherst media can proceed. So there's no, you know, and if we think there is something that, you know, you have questions about, we could ask it. Okay. Are there any questions? I have none that I haven't already asked. I've also looked at the drawings and beyond what John has advised in his letter, I don't see anything that wasn't in the letter that should have been or could have been. The document seems to, from the elevation standpoint, particularly come out of everything that we had asked. Yeah. And I agree with Greta and Karen. I actually think adding those windows just lightens up the facade. I think that's a big improvement. Yeah. So I'm prepared to move that the commission having viewed the current, whether they design development plans. Well, yeah. I mean, we could say that we haven't started construction documents yet. Yeah. And the owner wants a lot of interior particulars, which don't go to your failure. Let's, let's, let's phrase it differently. Having the commission, having viewed the the design drawings for a completed product. Do I go? Specifically for the exterior. Finds the drawings consistent with our earlier deliberations and any, and the noted changes to be de minimis. A second. Can I ask then, now that we have a proposal, Nate, is that phrasing, does that cover the technical requirements? Does that cover our obligations in this matter? Yeah. Is it being properly expressed from that standpoint? Yeah. There was a little statically reading. I haven't, you know, view the plans and it's consistent with the certificate and delay deliberations. So the changes are de minimis. I think that was fine. Okay. Yeah. Is there a second to the motion? I thought you Jennifer seconded it. No, I don't think I'm allowed to. Okay. For some reason I thought, oh, you asked if there was a second. Oh, sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, sorry. I thought we had a second. Oh, no. Okay. Karen. Okay. So we'll do the voice vote again for all in favor. Bruce. Oh, no. Peggy's at the top of my screen. I'm a voice. Peggy. Yeah. Okay. Bruce. I approve. Moving down. Karen. I approve. Greta. I approve. Jim. I approve. Yeah. I'm Jennifer and I approve. And for Amherst media, since we're zooming in, we have to do a voice vote. So. Yes. Can I say Jennifer to, to John and to Bucky and I think in the background, there's Jim and others that I think you've done very well. And I think this is a very, very satisfactory result from my point of view. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, thanks, John. Thanks, Bucky. Thank you. Jim and Ed. Thank you, guys. Happy to help. Yeah. Thanks. Good. Thank you. Bye bye. Bye. Okay. So I think the, I think that's everything. It is. It's everything that was on the agenda. Yep. Well, that's good because it's four minutes past somebody's pumpkin time. Do we need to set a new day next day? Or do we have one? I think, do we have one? I think we have one. Yeah. We have the next meeting. Is that the 28th? Of October. I think we have the next meeting. We have a few, we do have a few applications that are coming in. Let me see the 28th. 28th is a Wednesday. Do you mean that? I don't have another meeting. What do you do? Yeah, I guess maybe we didn't. I, I maybe. We do have a 20. Do we need to set two? Will we do the 20, 26th of October? Next Monday. Okay. Oh my God. That's a week before election day. Okay. Is that fine with everyone? We'll set a 26th. Yeah. At four o'clock again. In the document, it said three o'clock. That we're meeting. It's true. It did say three o'clock. Yeah. Oh, sorry. I must have keyed it wrong. I checked to see if today's meeting was at four. I did too. Jennifer, I did too. But we will meet at four on the 26th. Yeah. And we'll probably just let you know 19. 19 McClellan is going to resubmit if they haven't the port one. And there's a number of applications being discussed in terms of projects, you know, in both districts. So there could be, you know, anywhere from like one to four projects on the 26th. It all depends on what actually comes through. Okay. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you, everyone. This was a long meeting. So thank you, Jennifer. Thank you, Jennifer. Thank you, everybody. So we can just.